Nick sits down with Tom Ogas, the primary handler and co-creator of the critically acclaimed Delta Green actual-play podcast, Stories & Lies. Moving away from the active campaign, this raw, behind-the-scenes conversation pulls back the curtain on the creative mechanics of high-production TTRPG storytelling.

Subscribe to Stories & Lies feed today to be informed when new episodes arrive. If you'd like to support the show, ⁠please visit their Patreon⁠. Join them on their ⁠⁠Discord server⁠⁠ and play RPGs with them! Also, check out their website too⁠.

Hey, it's Nick here, the handler for Dead Letter Bureau, and we're doing something a

little different today.

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Today I'm having a little chat with Tom from Stories and Lies.

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Tom, anything you wanna say?

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I thought I guess I'll introduce myself.

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Hello, I'm I'm Tom Ogus.

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I'm I'm one of the guys for Stories and Lies.

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The nice thing about that podcast is we do share a lot of the work, which is necessary.

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We can get into that later.

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But I I guess I'm the primary.

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I the guy that got it started and I do the most the stories.

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Yeah.

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Was your first show the redacted files or or first time recording something, or have you

done a bit of things before that?

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Yeah, so I mean redacted reports was the first really the second.

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Really the second.

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Now before redacted reports, I was on this there's this channel called Quests in Chaos on

Twitch, which was about started ten years ago.

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And I did that for a couple of ye couple of years, right before COVID and then into COVID.

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But we had a show and I I played a role on one of the Twitch shows, and they turned that

Twitch broadcast into a podcast.

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Which I mean, it's just taking the audio from the Twitch stream and releasing as a

podcast.

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So it's not the same thing as what we do now.

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But I I did that for a while.

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I would I had no role in that.

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I just showed up on camera, played a character for three hours, and then it would be a

podcast.

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But then Redacted Reports really was the first thing I did.

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And then Stories and Lies is our our current project.

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Yeah, so I like to kick things off with a lightning round just to do quick warm-ups and to

get to know you.

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What would you say your favorite T T RPG system is?

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I mean right now it's Delta Green 'cause that's what I've been doing.

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That's what I I'm I'm I'm in that mode.

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You know, and I know that'll be my favorite until some new hotness eventually steals the

spotlight.

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Right.

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So I mean if I'm stuck on a desert island, I mean it's gonna ultimately be masks of

Nyarlathota.

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It took three years for us to finish that story.

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So if that's that that works for a desert island, you know.

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It'll it'll carry you to starvation, right?

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So

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Most yeah.

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Hopefully rescue, but starvation is maybe a little more likely.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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So yeah, you're into Delta Green, Call of Cthulhu, uh, you know, these uh Lovecraftian

systems, right?

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what if Lovecraft is erased from reality?

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Uh where the story lies find its next stories and lies find its next sandbox.

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We're probably going to like gumshoe, you know.

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I I'm I'm picturing something very rules light.

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That's what I I think we asked we would go that direction as opposed to going for

something more crunchy.

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So yeah, the gumshoe makes the most sense.

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'Cause we we kind of just improv this stuff anyway, so it works.

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That's cool.

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Yeah.

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And you know, before we jump into the interview, how did you connect with this group?

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Was it just a a mismatch?

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Did you know each other all before?

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Did you play at tables for years before recording?

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How did you guys get connected?

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It it's it's the amazing miracle of the internet is what it is.

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And and it's one of those internet success stories.

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And because I think many of us, maybe all of us, have played internet games online and I

feel like most of the time those don't those kind of fall they don't go anywhere.

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They like they come together, they break apart.

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There's not a lot of connection.

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It's hard to connect.

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It's a challenge we have in the internet age.

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The the guys at stories and lies.

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I met Taylor, who was a very first guy who very first producer.

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And he and I I I

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kind of core to this.

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He and I played together during COVID on online on Discord.

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And so I had that connection with him.

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And then uh Matt, who's one of our founding members, he and I were both on another Discord

for another show, which the it's gosh, Mayday.

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Gosh, they have Doom to Repeat.

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Was a we were both fans of Doom to Repeat by by the Mayday podcast, whatever they're I

forget what they're called again.

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Yeah.

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But we were just on that Discord, like two guys on a Discord talking about Delta Green.

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And at some point I was like, Man, I really wish I could do this again.

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I missed these old, you know.

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And he is like, Man, I'd love to do that with you.

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That was that was it.

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That was like the conversation.

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And he and I connected and we he and I and and Taylor, who I I I invited Taylor.

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I like, I Taylor's great.

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I I brought him back.

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Sure.

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He brought his friend Wes.

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And Wes is just chaos incarnate.

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And it wasn't so much fun.

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So we just all got together.

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We did a game that was not released.

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We just did a test game and had a great time.

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And we're like

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Gotta keep doing this.

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And so we we went forward.

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That was that's I don't know, we're we're like a hundred and seventy episodes later, you

know, here we are, right?

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Absolutely.

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Yeah, it's incredible.

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And just like the quality.

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And I mean, so like I got into Stories and Lies probably it's about two years ago now,

maybe a year and a half ago.

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And so I listened to the backlog all at once, right?

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And you know, you could not just the quality in the production growing, but like your

guys' performances, your gameplay, like your presence at the table, it is evolving

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constantly.

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And then now this God's teeth one.

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There was one episode where you guys are just chatting about what to do next, or like

right after you meet each other.

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And it goes on for like 30 minutes.

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And it's still some of the best role playing out there, right?

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Not to just not to glaze too much, but you can you can see the evolution and you have a

group of people that is really special, I think.

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Appreciate that we we have an episode in Ladybug and I think it's the third episode, which

I think it's called Copy and Conspiracy.

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Yeah where I I as the handler, I I I don't know what I said.

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I maybe said three or four words in that episode.

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I I said very little.

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I got got the characters together at a coffee shop and they just started role-playing.

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And that was one of the earliest things we ever did.

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And it was like that moment was like, Okay, this this we got something good here.

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Cause we just had three players playing three different characters.

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And then just interacting with the s with the scene from three different perspectives.

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You know, and it was just we watched it unfold and it was and that's always been a thing.

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We in our show we've got these moments of character conversation and then moments of s

tension.

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And we kind of bounce back and forth between that as the pacing allows, basically.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Yeah.

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Is that a hard thing to balance as like I mean, as a handler and a player, do you do you

ever get the sense you're like, we've been talking too much or oh, maybe we need to add

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some tension?

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Does that actually occur to you or does it feel natural now?

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it it does occur to me and I try to do something about it, but the the hardest part is if

I'm not the handler.

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That's the hardest part.

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My instincts are I have a certain ticking clock in my head.

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Okay, we've talked long enough.

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I need to I'll interrupt and move the scene forward.

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And I think Matt has the same clock in his head.

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Matt and I are pretty in sync with how long the conversation could go.

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Taylor can actually go a lot longer.

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Like Taylor Taylor has a very slow clock in his head.

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He can really role play the hell out of the scenes.

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So when he's the handler, you know, we often

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I obviously I get uneasy.

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Sometimes I'm like, all right, aren't you should we move the scene forward here?

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Let's go.

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Yeah.

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But it he eventually it happens eventually.

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It works out.

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Yeah, the the latest arc, like as it unfolds, you can see a difference in the pacing,

right?

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So still love it, right?

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And I was in a game that the Patreon game that Taylor ran great as well.

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And so like I got to experience him as a handler.

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And yeah, he he likes to luxuriate in the scene sometimes.

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And he's more like uh Well, what do you think?

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It's not here's the answer to your question.

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Well what what do you see?

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You know, like

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And you know, tries to get you to like suss it out more before giving you the answer as a

handler.

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So yeah.

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Yeah.

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So, you know, I'm curious with you've been doing this for a long time.

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There you you said a hundred and thirty something episodes, right?

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Not th I think we're like a hundred and sixty.

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Hundred and sixty.

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We're up there.

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It's yeah, it's it's been a while.

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So God, when did we start?

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Um, did we start in twenty three?

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I think we started in twenty twenty three.

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I gotta look I gotta look back.

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It's but it feels like a long time on one hand, and another time another hand it's just

like I don't know.

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Yeah.

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I it could have been a long who knows?

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Time time is a very strange thing.

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That's all I know.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Yeah.

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What keeps you coming back and recording and being a performer as well as a storyteller in

this?

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What's the what's the core need that you're meeting through this project in your life?

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Yeah.

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I mean, number one, at the table we have a great time.

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Like we we really enjoy those get getting together with the guys and eat we talked before,

we talk after, we talked, you know.

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So we have a great time.

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I look forward to it.

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I think we all look forward to getting together.

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It doesn't feel like work.

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The editing process is fun because we get stuff before it's released.

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We get to have some say on how things are happening.

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We get sneak previews.

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I work on these scripts between you know, so there's always a little tinkering we're

doing.

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it comes out

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And then it's like, wow, that sounds amazing.

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I don't remember it being that cool.

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So that's that's fun.

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So this like ri it's ri reinforced.

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It's reinforced the whole time.

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And the last thing to me is because we share the load enough, um, we we all start getting

these great ideas.

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Like the current story that Taylor's doing, Golden Orchard, is an idea he had like a year

and a half ago, like a long time ago.

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And he is working on it, working on it.

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He's getting all excited.

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He's like hypes us up to do this story, right?

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And then

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And I've got a story I'm working on next that I've been working on for eight, ten months

now.

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And Matt's working God's teeth and he's super hyped.

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So all of us are hyped to do these projects.

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So that that internally gets us excited.

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So we got a lot of fuel that kind of keeps us coming back.

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Yeah, that's cool.

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So you have enough of a time of a break from handling because handling is a a heavy lift,

right?

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Yeah.

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I mean, even emotionally, especially with Delta Green, sometimes you're just like, whew,

you know.

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I I'm sure Matt feels that right now.

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So but yeah, and you get this space to play and explore a character, not a bunch of NPCs

in a story.

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And that gives you time to kind of develop your own stories, it sounds like.

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Yeah.

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I I I still love the handler job.

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Yeah.

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'cause I care character characters we can talk about that later, but No no 'cause

Handler's got a lot more stories to do than just one character.

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And and one thing I like about the handler role is I get to constantly kind of read

rewrite the story.

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It's a lot of re editing all the time.

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Like I'll have an idea and then someone at the table has a better idea and I just steal

their idea.

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Yeah.

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That's what we keep doing.

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So it keeps refreshing all the time.

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It it's a lot of mental energy.

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But it's it's very satisfying when it all works out.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Feeling like the puzzle pieces come together and you're you're like this arbiter where you

pull in all the different stories everyone at the table is trying to tell and you're able

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to kind of piece it together.

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And seeing that tapestry in front of you sounds like that's motivating for you.

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Yeah, I I love that.

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That keeps me um it keeps me thinking between games too.

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As a as a character, I I might think about what just happened and then what would my

character do in the future, but that doesn't that's not a lot of that's a very small

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amount of uh brain power.

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Right.

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I I as when I'm playing, I can mostly just put the character aside and I come back to that

character two weeks later and I kind of rethink it.

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As the handler, I spend two weeks thinking about the story is what I do.

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Exactly.

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I just keep ruminating about what just happened, what I want to do next.

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You know and it so it burns a lot more energy that way.

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Yeah, it's funny.

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I find myself, you know, similar.

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I'm playing in a game somebody else ran and then I'm running stuff at the same time.

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And if I play too late, because I, you know, I get up early, like I have kids, right?

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If I play too late, my brain just doesn't turn off if I'm handling.

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I'm going over what's gonna happen next and I can't sleep because of it, right?

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Because that that role is like so cognitively heavy, but also satisfying.

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It's gonna it's an excitement.

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You know, as is the reason I can't sleep, not necessarily like a tax, so

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Yeah, absolutely.

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With putting yourself out there, it can be hard, right?

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And you know, I I tag this as imposter syndrome or it can be any negative feeling that you

get.

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Do you ever second guess yourself in this process?

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Do you ever release an episode and feel like, you know, that's not what I wanted?

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I talk to other showrunners and they're like, you know, I have post episode blues or like

I constantly suffer from imposter syndrome.

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Does that ever seek its way into you?

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N not not much.

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But I'll back up.

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I've been doing doing this for a little while.

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I'm I'm I'm a little older.

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Yeah.

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It at my stage of life, I've kind of gotten this you you get a certain kind of confidence

that's that it's gotten me to this point.

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When I was, you know, twenty, thirty years old, I had a lot more um a lot more imposter

syndrome, a lot more of like proving myself, proving myself, kind of like I did I do good

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enough.

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I can I do better.

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And af after a while of doing that, yeah, that was good.

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Sometimes I'll say to myself, I gotta wish it went some other way.

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Sure.

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But I I've kind of made peace with that feeling.

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but because most of the time I honestly at the table, things go better than I thought.

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I j it just really I have a plan going in and I do not cling to my plan.

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Like my plan is like just pencil, felt pencil.

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And I get so happy when like stuff happens that is not expected and I can do something

cool with it, that that energy gets me through the times when ah shit, we didn't do a very

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good scene.

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Or I didn't I didn't role play that NPC very well.

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That is something I do.

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Like, ah fuck.

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I could have played that guy so much better.

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Um, I I I'll have minor, minor regrets.

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I will give one example.

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In in Ghost Lights, there's a pilot character they meet in, I think, episode four or five.

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Now I had a I have a buddy that works for Southwest Airlines, who's pilot, a commercial

airline pilot.

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I sat down with him for like an hour and asked him a whole bunch of technical questions

and how would this work and how would that work and the the fiction of my story, and I'm

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like, and I was trying to soak all this stuff in.

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For my buddy, so I could play him as an NPC.

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I'm like, I'm gonna be this guy as an NPC.

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I'm gonna use these technical terms, I'm gonna speak like a pilot speaks.

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And when I actually at the table, I I I didn't do any of that shit.

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Yeah, I barely remembered the stuff he told me.

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I was forgetting my I So I was like, it was a kind of a B minus performance, I thought.

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So from time to time, there's characters that I'm like, ah fuck, I could have played that

character so much better.

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But but other than that, I mean, I do feel

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generally good about the work we do.

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I'm I'm generally happy with our work and I have I'm pretty comfortable in my own s my

stuff, you know?

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Yeah, totally.

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'Cause I've been I'm old enough now that I'm just like, Yeah, that's this is my stuff.

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I hope you like it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Wait, so wait, are we you know, you look like what, probably forty five, forty six.

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Is that ballpark?

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I'm actually I'm actually older than that, but let's Okay, okay.

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Yeah.

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I'll live with that's great.

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Yeah, yeah, okay.

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I'm forty and people think I'm like thirty five, so yeah.

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You know, you've kind of grown into this confidence and you know, through being a skilled

player and all of your your experience in recording and performing, it's helped you avoid

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having to second guess yourself too much, right?

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Yeah, I I I mean I did when I was a kid I did theater, you know, like like a lot of us

did.

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I was I did theater stuff, I did music and uh the whole deal.

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Like I was performing stuff.

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I I work in a field where I have to talk.

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I'm an attorney.

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I talk in court.

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Sure.

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You know, so I I got a left under my s experience under my belt that I can I can fake it

real well.

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Yeah, yeah.

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You have a a high charisma score, so yeah.

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Enough that I can get I can get by.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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In that vein, but like when you produce the show from running, playing a character,

recording the writing process, like which which part of the process is most difficult for

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you and why do you think that is?

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Yeah.

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If any at all.

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Right.

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The writing is the hardest.

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Okay.

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But I that's because I I am the hardest on myself in that part.

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when I'm roll role playing and acting, it's it's all impromptu.

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And so I give myself a lot of grace.

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I'm like, you know what?

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That was I had that was first take, right?

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We had no rehearsal, we have no script.

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Whatever comes out, comes out, I'll live with it, you know.

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Yeah.

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But with writing, I I've I got time.

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I can see it on this page, I can edit it, I can fix it, I can I can

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I have power over that that um whatever it turns out, I have power over it.

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I could have made it better.

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So I put a lot of pressure on myself and like my earlier scripts I'm not as happy with.

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Ob obviously we get better as we do this stuff.

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But those and when I when I nail one, I that really satisfies me.

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I I love that feeling like, yeah, that was good.

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Um and I don't always feel that.

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Like sometimes I just write it because I have to get something out.

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Sure and then whatever, I'll do it better next week.

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So totally.

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Yeah, I mean if you w if you don't mind, we can hone in on that just a little bit.

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When when you write something well and you feel good about it, like what's usually the

process that unfolds for you?

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Is it is there some sort of inspiration?

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Is it just craft?

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How does it usually come out well to where you're proud of it?

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Yeah, i I I love a scene that I I don't want it's gotta be th three to five minutes.

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It's a short scene where something is revealed.

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At the end of the scene, the audience learns something new.

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There's some there's a secret that we are gonna unveil in this scene.

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You know, and you can't always do that.

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That's hard to do.

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But I love it when I can finish a script with some twist, some remark, some revelation

that the audience, you know, light bulb goes off.

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And if I g if I can nail that, then I I feel really good.

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But sometimes it's just

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doing fun character stuff.

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I have like with with Morrison, for instance, is a character I write a lot.

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Yeah.

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He's one of my N PCs.

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I I like the f to get more and more into him and do fun stuff with him and the other

characters.

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So I sometimes it's just just fan service or for me.

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Write fun stuff for him.

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Yeah, your performance of him, you like you can tell that you luxuriate in it, right?

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Like that, like you come out when Morrison is on the the um wavelengths, I guess, not the

screen.

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But yeah, so yeah.

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Yeah, I mean I guess, you know, kind of a lightning question with that, like, do you have

a favorite N PC?

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Yeah, I mean he's definitely one, obviously.

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Um I I've had several different characters in our runs that that I just love those

characters.

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Yeah.

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You know, and because with we when we we as handlers, GMs, whatever, we we I don't know,

was it we play ten, twenty, thirty different people at once at the table?

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We bring a lot of characters to life.

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And we can't nail them all.

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That's impossible.

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But if you could nail just a couple, then that's the that's the goal.

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So Morrison obviously is one.

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in this in the same story, in the static story, that there's this gender character.

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huh uh gosh, H Henry, I think.

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Gosh, the old Harold.

375

Old Harold.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Is one of my favorite NPCs that I love that I could play him forever.

378

I don't know why.

379

But for some reason about something about that guy that I could really resonate with.

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My my character, Nicholas, who is a PC, but really is a GM N P C Sure.

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To me was one of my absolute favorite characters I ever played.

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You know, got to I got to run crate

383

That's what I got to chew the walls with that character and I love that guy to death.

384

And then I'm trying to think who else from our stories.

385

gosh, that really comes to mind.

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I mean those are the ones that come to mind, I guess.

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From all the stuff we've done.

388

Yeah.

389

Yeah, that's great.

390

I mean it's a it's a wealth of you know, you said hundred and sixty something episodes.

391

There's a lot of characters in there, right?

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So when are you going back to space?

393

I'm just kidding.

394

Maybe hopefully soon.

395

I I loved that.

396

I I'd I'd love that sidetrack, but I think I what did I play?

397

I played like no NPCs in that story.

398

That's an amazing story.

399

Barely, barely played NPCs in that story.

400

They were barely on screen in the the final aspects of that chapter of the very first

chapter.

401

Yep.

402

That was a e that was a I love that story for a lot of reasons, but it's just such a

different vibe to what we were doing.

403

And the world building with the character intros you would do before each episode was so

interesting.

404

And you're just like, wow.

405

I have s like just this like three minute thing gave me such a different understanding of

that PC, right?

406

So it was yeah, it was really good.

407

So and it was very tight too.

408

It was it moved quick and it was action the whole time.

409

So in like role playing action, not like you know.

410

Yeah, I arc it's Arc one five we're talking about.

411

Yeah, that's uh it's such it's such a story at a time for everything else we're doing.

412

Totally.

413

Yeah.

414

and I I forget about it sometimes weirdly enough because it's not it's Call of Cthulhu.

415

It's not part of our storyline.

416

You know, but but it's it was yeah, it's it it was a wonderful I was I wouldn't say

experimental.

417

It's it's tight, but it's just it was just a different and it's a great story.

418

Well, very well produced too.

419

Get did an amazing job on the production of that story.

420

You know, when did you bring get in and like what did you do yourself before that or as a

group?

421

How did how did that evolve?

422

Yeah, so when we started out, Taylor ob was the initial producer, editor, he was running

the back end.

423

He managing the website.

424

he did all that stuff for us.

425

He it was and he was overburdened like crazy.

426

Yeah.

427

And then every single weekend, Taylor was editing and he was not an experienced editor.

428

But he also was kind of peculiar.

429

He wanted things to sound a certain way, so he'd spent hours and hours, Saturday and

Sunday, on the episode that would be coming out on Monday.

430

And then the next weekend he'd be do the same thing.

431

He's

432

His entire weekend was getting ready for that Monday release.

433

And we were encouraging him and and like trying to keep him going, but his battery was

going down, and he was a soldier for it.

434

But um, while he was also running Painting Darkness and editing at the same time, which

was crazy, Ged, out of nowhere, he's like a college student's a college student who's a

435

wonder cun.

436

He's an amazing guy.

437

He just sends an email to Taylor Out of the Blue, like this stranger to our our Gmail

address.

438

We have a stories in lies Gmail address.

439

Taylor happens to open it up and he's like, Hey, I'm a freelance editor.

440

I like your podcast.

441

cool.

442

This guy actually lists someone listens to us.

443

This is amazing.

444

He's like, Hey, do you guys need any help with your editing?

445

And so and he's that but he he charges for the service.

446

It wasn't like he's looking for work, right?

447

Yeah.

448

And so he's like, here's a list of my work.

449

Here's a link to all my samples, my experience, blah, blah, blah.

450

Taylor, Taylor loves it.

451

He sends us all this stuff.

452

He's like, Can we hire this guy?

453

And Matt and I and Wes are like, yeah, sure, man, we'll all chip in.

454

This is w this is worth it.

455

We're gonna help you out.

456

We know this is a burden.

457

We'll help you out, man.

458

So we bring him in like in the middle of painting darkness, too.

459

It wasn't even we're like, just take over, man.

460

I think it's like episode seven or eight or something, and you can like suddenly hear the

difference in this quality in the middle of that story.

461

He's been with us ever since.

462

And like the fun part is initially he was like a uh a guy we hired to do production,

right?

463

Yeah.

464

And then we like brought him into the fold and and we're like he's like telling us

creative stuff.

465

He's like overruling us on things and suggesting things to us.

466

We're like, Hey, let's do this song.

467

No, no, no, let's do a better I got a better song for ya.

468

Yeah.

469

He kinda took he took over all that aspect of production and uh we've been better off.

470

Yeah.

471

Yeah, he's like an editor and a producer too, it sounds like, which is great.

472

Yeah.

473

So yeah, he he's hilarious when I see him in Discord and stuff, and he's seems like an all

around solid guy.

474

So and yeah, does he do every episode then or do you s sometimes Taylor go back and do

some?

475

Like maybe this Yeah, go ahead.

476

does a few.

477

Um Taylor mostly the idea was Taylor would do the Patreon and we've been really remiss in

doing the Patreon.

478

But he's edited a cup Taylor has done a couple of our behind the scenes episodes.

479

Sure.

480

That didn't require any kind of production work.

481

So Taylor would just do those.

482

But otherwise, anything that requires, you know, SFX, um, more advanced theme music,

whatever.

483

I mean anything that gets touched.

484

It gets it gets been involved in it and pretty heavily involved.

485

And a lot of our later productions as far as what it's gonna sound like.

486

And I like I like that forget almost has an idea, like a director.

487

Like this is the this is the direction this story should go in.

488

And this is the the the sound I want for this story.

489

Like, you know what I mean?

490

Like he has his I'm so cool.

491

'Cause he he also he works in film.

492

He does editing audio for film.

493

He's got he's a busy guy.

494

And we just I just hope we don't lose him.

495

That would be that would be

496

Yeah.

497

Fingers crossed.

498

So yeah.

499

Kind of switching gears.

500

When you first started recording, it could be with anything, right?

501

Like what advice do you have for yourself, you know, you know, X years old Tom, to, you

know, you sitting down to first start these projects?

502

Like what advice would you give yourself?

503

it's hard to say.

504

I mean, 'cause I y you gotta give yourself a whole lot of grace, a whole lot of latitude

and let yourself make mistakes.

505

And y I don't wanna be like I would not tell a young version of myself, you know, a a

whole bunch of extra rules or a bunch of extra boundaries.

506

Because we all had to learn by screwing things up, yep, by getting by deadline pressure,

you know, by um well there's a lot of mistakes and things you make along the way that

507

should help you get better.

508

I mostly just

509

Just tell it's gonna be great, keep it up, and that kind of stuff.

510

It's mostly encouragement.

511

Encouragement.

512

If I'm talking to a young myself or just a young whoever, a young person who's starting

this, you know, um, you you gotta you gotta love it.

513

Otherwise, why are you doing it?

514

But if you do love it, then like, you know, go for it.

515

Go, go for it, man.

516

It's have fun, put it out there.

517

And if it's something that you enjoy, I think the joy comes out.

518

And um in the technical stuff, it's great.

519

I mean, I love it.

520

But that's that's not why podcasts fail or succeed.

521

I don't think that's it.

522

It's about does it does the audience like it?

523

Does it resonate?

524

Does it connect?

525

Yeah.

526

Is it something that people enjoy and want to hear more of for whatever reason, you know,

emotional or otherwise?

527

Yeah, absolutely.

528

Yeah.

529

Completely agree.

530

And on that note, like where do when where do you get character inspiration?

531

Like when you're sitting down to play rather than uh handle, how do you come up with a

character?

532

Where do you get ideas and

533

Yeah, it's uh it it's tough because I feel like it's all been done.

534

Number one.

535

Right?

536

It's hard it and if you try to make that character no one else has done, that character is

a cliche.

537

So like like and I've seen plenty of podcasts or st role playing games where people pick

this the weirdest guy you can think of that no one's ever thought of before, and it just

538

doesn't fit.

539

And it it just seems like a caricature as opposed to a person.

540

So um it it's hard to make a character that it's the way we do it internally,

541

It's a we we talk a lot about I I like I ask questions of who is this guy?

542

What were they doing before?

543

What matters to you?

544

You know, what how do you how does he view this?

545

How does he view that?

546

Who or is we do a lot of talking about are these people and we try to discover things

about them, you know, even before we play.

547

I mean, sometimes more than others, wouldn't w with stories and lives for for the initial

cast for Ladybug.

548

I don't know how this happened.

549

This is Taylor's fault.

550

I'm a I'm gonna blame Taylor for that.

551

Taylor loved Dorothy from the get go.

552

Like that's his that's he's been playing her forever.

553

Yeah.

554

That's our longest standing character.

555

He started writing short fiction featuring Dorothy's background.

556

And then that got Wes to write a story.

557

And then that got Matt to do a story.

558

And then I like wrote some shit as well for Mike.

559

Like we all started writing little stories about our characters for no re just because

we're all weird role play people, right?

560

Sure, yeah.

561

We're like doing this little, you know, fanfic for characters we have not yet played.

562

We haven't started recording yet.

563

We've started wow.

564

Who are these people?

565

And by the time we did episode one, I mean, I knew who Willow was.

566

Yeah.

567

From talking to Wes, from reading these stories.

568

I knew the kind of things I wanted to seed into those conversations.

569

I had we had figured out who George Lewiston was, the character who starts out dead.

570

In episode one, he's dead.

571

Yeah.

572

Yeah.

573

And he's an integral care part of the background of all these people.

574

And I knew who he was, his connection to these people.

575

I'm seeding things in to his backstory.

576

And and we just then you have to let your players who would love their characters, right?

577

Yeah.

578

light and let them play these characters out, interact with each other, then they start

mixing up this uh and it's chemistry happens and then great things happen and then you

579

move the story along, right?

580

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

581

And it yeah, it does it absolutely comes through, right?

582

So and the the fact that you all that pre-conversation, you know, in like film, they'll

have actors sit together.

583

I mean i theater too and like get to know each other.

584

They're if they're couple, they should have dinner a few times before they play a couple,

right?

585

So it makes sense that you guys would develop so much and like basically spitball these

guys out and start giving them shape, right?

586

In like

587

Mythos or these um role play like D one hundred role playing games where you have to

embody like a human, like there's so much opportunity to do that, right?

588

When I think of the OSR, like the old school renaissance, you know, you're you're

basically creating character off random role tables and that's it.

589

And it's it's a lot more difficult to get into something like that a lot of the time.

590

And plus they have like three hit points and die anyway in like a session, but

591

But I think that like that's why that's what I love about Delta Green, Call of Cthulhu and

things like that.

592

You're you're able to enact things that are real more often, right?

593

Not saying you can't do that in, you know, high fantasy and things like that, but there's

just something special about, you know, this this is somebody who's gonna face like

594

realistic but impossible odds, you know.

595

One thing like is I feel like our characters are relatable.

596

Yeah.

597

Because they're humans in in very human situations with families, with obligations, with

responsibilities, with uh humans humans' moral values, like that hopefully our audience

598

shares, right?

599

Yeah.

600

And then when these characters are having these struggles, these these value struggles,

these ethical struggles, you hope the audience is also sharing those struggles and feeling

601

the same pressure of what would I do if I was in that situation.

602

So I think that's pretty relatable.

603

Um I

604

Moving forward just a second.

605

Yeah.

606

We're doing God's Teeth, you know, as well, which is something that is a campaign and not

just a story.

607

So for God's Teeth, we did a lot of the same stuff we did for Ladybug.

608

Except we didn't write any micro fiction.

609

But we did a lot a lot of conversations about who these people are, what they were.

610

Not just section zero, but even between that.

611

And a character I play in God's Teeth, I'm really excited about because I spent a lot of

time figuring her out.

612

Yeah.

613

Before I even started role playing her.

614

So that's that's part of

615

That's part of the sauce, I think, is it's getting in the head of these characters early

enough and that you can really jump in there and and you're and you wanna find out what

616

happens to this person.

617

You get attached.

618

For better or for worse, right?

619

You get attached to these characters.

620

Yes, yeah.

621

Yeah, it's for Savannah.

622

Was this something in your head that had been kind of floating around before God's teeth,

or when when God's teeth came up, you're like, Okay, I'm gonna do some thinking and pick

623

this out.

624

Like how did you come to that character?

625

Yeah, I mean it's a lot of I don't know, it's hard to I don't remember but I do remember

this.

626

Um at some point I I wanted to based on what other people are doing, right?

627

I wanted to go the federal agent, but I didn't want to do a federal agent.

628

I ended up with a marshal, but I didn't want to be a marshal.

629

It's bunch of this process.

630

Yeah.

631

But I I ultimately chose a character that actually my sister is the i inspiration for a

lot of this stuff.

632

That's for the fun part for me.

633

Yeah.

634

I took my sister in her background and and completely changed it, obviously.

635

Sure.

636

I but you start I start with a real person like and her and a background in a story to

figure out how to emulate a lot of this the day-to-day stuff.

637

And then I started adding, adding, adding details and background and talked to Matt about

details that may may or may not ever come out.

638

I don't know.

639

Probably probably will knowing Matt.

640

But you but I did start with a real human person who I know.

641

And then I went from that person and developed a whole other person.

642

That's cool.

643

Yeah, that's that's awesome.

644

A lot of people like look into other fiction a lot of the times and I think that's where

you can get into the caricature.

645

But when you like can ground it to a real person, that's um that's really fun.

646

And especially if somebody close to you.

647

Yeah, I I I I really I love that character and I hope nothing happens to her.

648

Uh whereas the character I'm playing in Taylor's story, which we just finished, yeah is

one that I don't really love.

649

I mean, I I can play him, but I don't I don't relate to him or understand him at all.

650

I just do the best I can to fake that character.

651

As like Julian, my my tro my struggling artist character, yeah, you know, with who's a

just a uh very uh you can see that he's not me.

652

I don't know.

653

Yeah, yeah.

654

Yeah.

655

No, I th I've I thought you've been playing him well, like especially like the like he's

an artist, but he's more kind of like a a mimicry artist or like he's good at copying,

656

right?

657

Like he can he can do that, but he may maybe doesn't necessarily have his own internal

well of like ideas, right?

658

So yeah.

659

Yeah, I'm excited to see what happens with Julian.

660

I'm sure it's like what, next week or the week after?

661

Yeah, I for for our per ours for our purposes, I don't know when this is coming out as a

recording.

662

It's gonna be like next week, right?

663

Great.

664

Cool.

665

Yeah, I'm excited.

666

From a storytelling perspective, God's teeth ends whatever's in between the next few

chapters is over.

667

And you're, you know, setting the stage for your own story.

668

Like what what type of experiments do you want to do in the future with a storytelling?

669

Or what are you passionate about for yourself next?

670

And you don't have to reveal details, but just thematically generally like what's what's

hyping you up.

671

I when I started out, I think like most handlers, GMs, whatever start, we we do tend to

stay really close to the written materials that are that are really well done.

672

Delta Green's got some amazing published scenarios that are like a a crutch for you as a

new handler, storyteller, GM, whatever.

673

And like I I started out with those, right?

674

And as I've been going along, I've been doing more and more of my own stuff.

675

Yep.

676

So I've I've been I've been mostly looking forward to creating my own stuff, and that's

that's that's a hell of a

677

an ask, right?

678

Yes.

679

That that's a hell of an ask.

680

I I feel pretty good like, I'll figure something out.

681

'Cause I I I guess I have, but but I I don't have it yet.

682

So I I do after this after we do God's teeth, which is a second chapter, which is called

Red Thoughts, like I'm on deck for the next story.

683

So I'm like I'm in this the batting circles, but I'm doing it.

684

And I'm actually working on it.

685

It's kind of fun because Taylor we're working on art for that already.

686

I'm working on we're working on characters for that.

687

We're we're all get working on that in the

688

Even though we're not playing that for who knows when.

689

But on that I'm up next.

690

Matt's gonna give me a breather doing more God's teeth.

691

And then after that I need something entirely new.

692

Entirely new.

693

And I don't know what that's gonna be.

694

I'm in that spot where like I think we've all been there as a handler where you're like,

or GM, you finish a story.

695

People are the players love it, they wanna do something else, but you don't have something

else.

696

Yeah.

697

Yet.

698

Exactly.

699

And so at some point inspiration will strike.

700

But I mean I'm up

701

Back to your original question.

702

What I'm doing with the next story, I feel good about because it's kind of it's kind of

it's different.

703

And I really like doing stuff that's different.

704

It's a challenge.

705

Yeah.

706

It's a format's structure a little different.

707

It's a little bit more uh surreal, I guess, is the best way I put it.

708

It's not gonna be linear, it's it's a little more weird, which we've been had some good

success with.

709

But after that, I need to find a new direction.

710

So yeah, we've we've had a lot of luck with kind of picking these themes of stories and

then doing a

711

Doing uh following the theme, right?

712

Yeah.

713

It could be pulp, spy, spy fiction, you know.

714

Um I I don't even know what c you call days long since remembered.

715

Yeah.

716

But we always have these different kind of modes.

717

Yeah.

718

I I need to do something that's very much conspiracy war, is what I'm trying to do.

719

Something that's conflict in the na late nineties, Delta Green versus Majestic.

720

Yeah.

721

And I need to I need to find the the vehicle for that story.

722

Yeah.

723

I'll figure it out one day.

724

I don't know what day that is, but I'll figure that out at some point.

725

That's cool.

726

Yeah.

727

And that's a great fertile space, right?

728

That's like such a fun thing.

729

Like you're interacting with the unnatural, but then you have this deep state for lack of

a better term, like destroying itself essentially.

730

So yeah, that's really cool.

731

And I'm really happy the Delta Green authors have done a great job of making a story world

with a lot of great story hooks and built in conflicts and lots of wonderful gray areas we

732

can explore.

733

And I think um like I've been talking with the guys offline about the way I view the

majestic group is different than other people.

734

Interesting, yeah.

735

Like I'm because I I like to view them as a a a committee of individuals, not like one

single minded individual, right?

736

Sure.

737

Which means there's there's competing agendas.

738

Yeah.

739

And and this there's never one version of the of the um steering committee.

740

It's just it's just twelve different people's opinions.

741

It's a giant bureaucracy that causes a lot of trouble that it's it's it's gonna ultimately

turn on itself because that's how this works, right?

742

Yeah.

743

But how do you get individual stories within that?

744

How do you show those stories?

745

How do your players affect those stories?

746

That's that's the challenge.

747

Yeah, that's interesting.

748

And I mean, I know play you're still playing through God's teeth, but you know, this isn't

like spoilery or anything.

749

But the God's teeth is really it's not necessarily about the bureaucracy of like the deep

state or the CIA or whatever it may be, but it is about the like that the system that can

750

just crush individuals and like getting lost in that and where can you even change or

control it, right?

751

And I think, you know, Caleb Stokes like my favorite like um

752

probably author in the Delta Green space, you know, his he's very pessimistic with his

like outcomes of that like question, right?

753

So I would be curious like what your, you know, answer to that is.

754

You don't seem as pessimistic as Caleb, I guess.

755

So

756

Yeah, I I I find these systems to be somewhat agnostic or somewhat some of like like law

lawful neutral, I guess is the better to put it.

757

And individuals can push the levers in either direction.

758

So I don't I don't view the system as corrupt.

759

I view it just individuals within the system, you know, bend and shape it.

760

It depends on who you have at the levers.

761

Yeah, it's like a mechanism of control, right?

762

Like you have this s it is like yeah, a system, right?

763

And there has to be intent behind the system that like causes the pain, right?

764

Or causes, you know, like things to get better, right?

765

Like that intent behind it is important.

766

Yeah.

767

Yeah.

768

I mean I know Caleb has a very much a sense of the soulless system, right?

769

Mm-hmm.

770

That just it just kind of causes misery by existence.

771

And there is there's guess some truth to that because so much of the system is

dehumanizing and making making individuals into collectives, you know, and yeah.

772

And people get lost in the cracks all the time when you make everybody a you know, a

square or a circle or try to make a one rule for all or whatever, you know.

773

Yeah.

774

So s systems are systems aren't good or bad, but they do have a lot of lot of negative

outcomes, obviously.

775

As we're getting toward the end of our time here, anything else you want to talk about or

like anything that you think is interesting, um, that's worth exploring quickly?

776

Yeah.

777

So what yeah, one I guess one thing I do want to say when I was I was thinking about this

conversation here.

778

Yeah.

779

and some of the questions leading up to it.

780

Um I think one thing that is hard and for for me and maybe you know the same system, same

feeling, is um when we make this stuff, like we make stuff sometimes we we could create

781

stuff that is amazing, that we love, are passionate about, we wanna share it.

782

It turned out better than we thought.

783

We're just so proud, right?

784

Yeah.

785

And this happens with

786

artists, with musicians, with any kind of people in the arts where you make great things

and then it just never gets discovered.

787

And it that's and that is that is I don't know how to fix that problem, but that was in to

me in the first two years, maybe even now, of doing this, that was my biggest struggle.

788

It wasn't doing the art and showing up and doing the work.

789

It was now that I've done it, does anybody even care?

790

Did anyone hear it?

791

Is there is there an audience?

792

And it's it's wonderful.

793

I love it when people do

794

Tell us, like people show up and tell us that they heard it.

795

'Cause that that's so reassuring.

796

Um, but it took a long time, at least for for me to for mainstream, I ph if it's a

mainstream of Delta Green.

797

Yeah, to like even like I I felt like we people were listening to us, but almost like felt

I felt for a long time like we were just kind of lost, like like a small group of

798

listeners in a big group of role players.

799

And whenever someone would talk about podcasts, it was always the same two podcasts that

they would mention.

800

Sure.

801

Yeah.

802

And that that always bugged me.

803

It was it was irrational.

804

It was an emotional thing for me.

805

Like if you just listen to what we did, maybe maybe you would but it it has it has it's

changed.

806

I'll put it that way.

807

It's changed as more and more people do the the word eventually gets out.

808

It just takes time.

809

So for anybody who's new and and and like it may take a couple of years.

810

And maybe be your not your first, second, or maybe your third story hits or something just

happens along the run that catches fire for whatever reason.

811

Who knows the reason?

812

Yep.

813

I do feel like over time the art gets respect, but it it takes a while and that that can

be frustrating.

814

Absolutely I mean, just like, you know, in the taking a micro and making it macro, like

Lovecraft himself, right?

815

No fame at all um during his life, right?

816

So like very you're devastating for him like as a person, right?

817

But yeah, there is this like and this is what I think of like post episode blues, right?

818

Where you release something and then you get, you know, some like some people in Discord

are like, yeah, this is great, da da da.

819

But then you're just

820

There's something in the back of my head sometimes where I'm just like, does anybody give

a shit?

821

Right.

822

You know, like you're just like, you know, I love this, I love producing it.

823

So that's enough for me to keep doing it.

824

But then there is that voice that's like, but no one like how many people are really

listening to it?

825

Like, you know, I don't know.

826

I mean, I do because I can I can see the the downloads, but yeah, it is a tough place to

be, right?

827

And growing a show um can be hard.

828

But I I do think what you're saying, like just keeping at it.

829

And

830

Focusing on like the, you know, why you love doing it and continuing to push that weight,

I think it does start to separate you from the people who are in it just to like get

831

listens or to monetize or to, you know, someday be able to play ads, right?

832

Like for me, I was like, I'll never I never want to make money off of this.

833

I just want to do this for fun.

834

I don't want to like ever have ads.

835

Maybe I would do a coffee or something like that just to pay for the cost of running it.

836

Um, but like

837

you know, just honing in on like your own values in the space, right?

838

And keep going, right.

839

And I think people will eventually see that and come to your show.

840

So yeah.

841

Yeah, yeah.

842

I mean for I mean for us, we we all we love playing, we love doing all that stuff great.

843

We and that's that's a that's hell of a motivation right there.

844

But we we've talked about it internally, like none of us are gonna we're never gonna put

ads on it, whatever.

845

Sure.

846

And the other guys that I work with are are very much cool.

847

Like if we have two listeners or or twenty or whatever, they don't care.

848

They're pretty much like, I don't care, I'm happy with the show, I like it.

849

Like for I guess for me I always I always got a little bit like I I just

850

I want I want the main I always wanted the mainstream of Delta Green to at least know it.

851

I don't know whether they like it or not, whatever.

852

But at least to have heard of it.

853

That was my irrational I don't know what that word is.

854

Insecurity.

855

That's my insecurity.

856

insecurity.

857

Yeah.

858

Yeah.

859

I mean, that makes sense, right?

860

And I think a lot of like when you do feel confident as a storyteller and you feel like

your stories are good and you have something to share, it can be tough, right?

861

Like if you don't feel like you're able to share it, right?

862

It is a it's an audience problem, right?

863

Where it's like, I know the story's good, like it resonates with the people who are seeing

it.

864

Like, how do I get more people to see this and and have it resonate?

865

with those people as well, right?

866

'Cause I think it does have something to offer the world, right?

867

And it's tough, like if you feel like that's not happening or that you can't execute on

that like enough.

868

You know what I mean?

869

Yeah, so maybe that's something I would tell my younger self.

870

Yeah, it let it just let it be.

871

Have some patience.

872

Give it some time.

873

It'll yeah, it'll it'll work out.

874

That that that would be good advice for for young young Tom just starting this thing out.

875

Yeah.

876

I mean, what I will say is, you know, you know, I reached out to you first just because I

respect you as like a creator and you know, we don't have a lot of connections between our

877

shows or anything, right?

878

When I think of okay, where I want to grow as a storyteller, somebody embodying a

character, it is your show.

879

It's not glass cannon or like big ones, like I don't those the shows honestly kind of

annoy me.

880

So but like it is it is really a stories and lies.

881

So yeah.

882

Appreciate that.

883

Yeah, I mean we're cause that we are not a live performance role play show.

884

Those are those those are different vehicles.

885

They're there to entertain, to do live improv using role playing games as a way to do that

live comedy, whatever, that's their show.

886

Um You you did borrow Mark, didn't you?

887

Yeah.

888

It was amazing.

889

I love that.

890

Yeah.

891

Yeah.

892

And Mark, I I'm so jealous of Mark's voice.

893

Like every time I hear it, I'm just like, man, this guy has such a voice, right?

894

Like, and he I mean, cause he's fairly new to the crew, right?

895

I don't know how new he is to role playing, but like like lightning in a bottle with that

guy, right?

896

Like, I'm just like, whoa.

897

But yeah, like I love the idea of putting a cow, you know, or a human brain in

898

Well, I don't want to spoil too much, but like you know what I'm saying.

899

Some Migo business and I wanted to s have one of our characters sent off like that.

900

So it was it was cool that you guys were open to like sharing that with me.

901

I loved it.

902

Yeah.

903

That's really cool.

904

I mean I yeah, I I really I I I like where our show fits in the I don't know what you call

it, cosmology.

905

But that's the kind of sh that's the kind of game we like to play.

906

That's really yeah.

907

It's not like we're we did it intentionally.

908

That's just the way we like to play gaze games.

909

Yeah.

910

We're very we're very character centered.

911

And in and my I mean I I went to school as a writer.

912

That's about my I'm talking about my background is writing.

913

Yeah.

914

Um, and then I went to law school

915

Because I want to get a job or what I want to like make a living.

916

I want yeah, yeah.

917

I want to pay my rent.

918

Yeah.

919

You know what mean?

920

But I I I have I have some training in in writing and screenwriting and all that stuff in

theater and all that.

921

But and my what I was taught early on, this idea of a story is a character in conflict.

922

It's character in conflict.

923

That all boils down to it.

924

And it's not the conflict that's the story, it's the people that are in it and what

decisions they make.

925

And that's and that's the audience.

926

We're following these people and their decisions.

927

And that's that's what gets us interested as an audience and television, movies, whatever.

928

It's about following a character through their conflict, their decisions, their struggles.

929

And that's that's always been my focus when I've done role playing games.

930

You know, well, not always.

931

When it was D and D that w it wasn't it it was but we I do have a background in doing the

white wolf storytelling game system.

932

That was one of my first

933

Formative role playing uh for rays and that's all about characters.

934

oh

935

I've never heard of it, so I'm gonna note it here.

936

Yeah.

937

I'll I'll if you give me one minute, I'll I'll give you that I'll I'll give you that go.

938

So so White Wolf is a company that came out in the nineties that was very much angst, you

know very it was grunge angst the crow kind of stuff, you know.

939

Yeah, yeah.

940

But it they started out with Vampire.

941

That was their first game.

942

Vampire the Masquerade.

943

Oh and they made bunch of other games.

944

Yeah.

945

World of Darkness story.

946

But all their games are were a twist on the convention.

947

That was their novel twist.

948

Was these people.

949

And then it could be a vampire, right?

950

But vampires are interesting because they have been living a long time.

951

They have a hell of a backstory.

952

And it's all about their interests, their desires, their conflicts, their and it's very

social as opposed to dungeon crawl fighting.

953

There's there's combat like there always is.

954

But sure.

955

It really is when we made vampire characters at the table, it was okay, your guy was born

956

Where has he been for the last two 120 what it years?

957

What's his story?

958

Yeah.

959

and so it was focused on the people on their backstory and that got us thinking about

these characters.

960

More so than the monster of the week.

961

Yeah, exactly.

962

Like how how can I use these two spells in the next combat encounter?

963

Right.

964

So yeah.

965

No, that's great.

966

Yeah, sorry.

967

Why I didn't realize it was the company that did World of Darkness stuff, but I I've never

played but like there was a show called Have you heard of Real Lich Hours?

968

It they did a world of uh like World of Darkness, Vampire the Masquerade season where they

just did like the one of the video games, but then use that as a way to go through the

969

source books and

970

Get an understanding of factions and classes and things like that.

971

Very interesting show.

972

So yeah, it's worth the listen.

973

Yeah.

974

Okay.

975

Yeah.

976

Yeah.

977

Well, Tom, thank you.

978

I appreciate you sitting down with me.

979

Um, it was great to like meet you this way and um that you're able also just to be a

little vulnerable with me and talk through some of the insecurities was awesome to hear.

980

And I think people who listen to this will appreciate that as well.

981

Yeah, I appreciate it.

982

I I I'm happy to talk about this.

983

I I I do love this stuff.

984

I I really honestly do.

985

I mean, I've I've got a day job, I've got a career, I've got a family, and those things

are those things are important.

986

Yeah, obviously.

987

We we we got our we both have kids, we've got we got professional jobs we've got we've

been trained for and educated for that we gotta do.

988

Um but we I think we all need like a little s I don't know, that creativity.

989

I need I needed that something in my life and

990

And for some people it's it's that could be painting, you know, it could be gardening, I

don't know.

991

It could be pottery.

992

It uh some some guys is golf.

993

I don't know.

994

But this is my thing, man.

995

This role playing games, I just decided when I was, I don't know, thirty or forty, that

even though I've got a career, this is not some stupid kids game I w you know, it's not

996

some fun, silly hobby.

997

It's just something that I enjoy.

998

I I really love this stuff.

999

and and I wanna keep doing it and I wanna

00:50:35,468 --> 00:50:35,929

I'm happy.

00:50:35,929 --> 00:50:36,801

I love talking about it.

00:50:36,801 --> 00:50:38,264

I love participating in it.

00:50:38,264 --> 00:50:43,394

I like trying to make something better than what I've done, you know, before, I guess.

00:50:43,394 --> 00:50:44,635

Yeah, absolutely.

00:50:44,635 --> 00:50:46,976

And I think you're you're you're succeeding.

00:50:46,976 --> 00:50:50,137

So like, yeah, I think you should definitely keep it up.

00:50:50,137 --> 00:50:51,727

So and I know you will.

00:50:51,727 --> 00:50:52,798

So yeah.

00:50:53,418 --> 00:50:53,888

Awesome.

00:50:53,888 --> 00:50:55,939

Well, anything you want to plug before you go?

00:50:55,939 --> 00:50:59,771

I know you're wrapping up an arc and you're about to start um the next part of God's

teeth.

00:50:59,771 --> 00:51:02,650

Anything else you want to mention here at the end for people to check out?

00:51:02,650 --> 00:51:07,941

I I'll say mean if if if people if people are hearing this and are not are not familiar

with us, I mean that's that's great.

00:51:07,941 --> 00:51:15,093

Uh that's um we're our podcast is called Stories and Lies and it's a little and persand,

which messes up your search.

00:51:16,114 --> 00:51:20,815

But but we we do primarily Delta Green settings and stories.

00:51:20,815 --> 00:51:25,096

And and I I am the I guess I'm the primary handler, I don't know.

00:51:25,096 --> 00:51:28,517

But we do rotate storytellers, right?

00:51:28,517 --> 00:51:31,968

And we've been telling a couple of different long form stories and we

00:51:32,056 --> 00:51:36,889

Do it it's really about I'd say about three stories a year or basically is how we do it.

00:51:36,889 --> 00:51:41,712

We're every Monday, every Monday we got a new chapter, about an hour long podcast comes

out.

00:51:41,712 --> 00:51:45,255

Um and if if you like it, I I hope people enjoy it.

00:51:45,255 --> 00:51:54,821

We do it the audience and if you want to say hi, we've got a a Discord and stuff you can

say hi and we'd love to we'd love to we like hearing that too.

00:51:54,821 --> 00:51:55,602

We like to praise it.

00:51:55,602 --> 00:51:57,224

So thanks for everybody who's listening.

00:51:57,224 --> 00:51:59,435

I hope it's been a great thank you, Nick, for having here.

00:51:59,435 --> 00:52:01,868

I I like of course I love talking about this stuff.

00:52:01,868 --> 00:52:02,541

Yeah, no.

00:52:02,541 --> 00:52:03,213

Yeah, it's great.

00:52:03,213 --> 00:52:05,511

And I'm learning from just hearing you talk about it.

00:52:05,511 --> 00:52:07,957

So it's it's awesome to have this conversation.