The simplest form of communication is sending links. Rich and Paul delve into the two kinds of people: Link Droppers and Card-Sorters, and the dynamic between the two. That's why they created a simple tool called Aboard that allows the co-existence of both - it is more organized for the Card-Sorters and it is easier for the Link Droppers. So whichever one you are, check out Aboard - it's for you. This podcast is sponsored by Aboard.

Hey, Rich, how you doing?

doing well.

How are you?

Well, you know, we got this startup, Aboard, aboard.

com, and I talked to a lot of people about the way that they use data

and computers and what they do.

And because Aboard is an organization system, ultimately, it's about turning

links and data into these little simple cards that you move around on the screen.

It's nice that way.

It's real nice that way

So we feel good about that part, but as you talk, I talk to people a

lot about how they use data, and a lot of people have stories about Google Sheets,

and they, they use WhatsApp and chat.

There's always like, you know, I'm doing this house project with my wife,

or, and, uh, you know, I'm putting all the furniture in here, and I'm the one

who puts the furniture in, and then she, she drops the links into the chat.

Okay, so let's back up a second because I like to simplify

things One of the most common ways to communicate is to point someone

to a link You're chatting It's usually a chat because people chat.

There was a day when it was all email and then everybody

started chatting on WhatsApp and Messenger and SMS or whatever.

And they drop a link.

My wife dropped six links to me today.

Some were from Instagram.

So some were for a play that she was seeing if we wanted to go.

Just links.

this is actually the miracle of the web.

We think about the web as like this unified box of, of ideas and thoughts

that you get to through a browser.

But the miracle of the web is that all the things on all the servers

have a little postal address.

And if you drop the link in, everybody knows how to get to that address.

Well, if you touch it.

With your finger it opens and that's crazy

take that part for granted.

We just assume that like, oh, well that's how it should work.

That's a miracle.

It's a miracle I mean one minute I'm talking to my wife

the next I'm watching a movie on my

Every piece of information that we know of in the world

that's online has an address.

now the problem with that

huh.

is that the Conversation washes away that link that someone

sent you yesterday afternoon to the point where my wife will Corner

me with the following question.

Did you open that link?

I sent you yesterday

Sure.

And I'll always say yes.

Yes.

It's it's it's just you start with

Well, let's be real, you're already on your phone in

the middle of a conversation.

It's not like you're making eye contact when she asks that question.

So there is you know, there is this sort of What's the word?

Ephemeral quality to chat, right?

It's just conversation.

It's fleeting.

It comes and goes.

Except links are not that.

Links are meaningful.

Sometimes links are put aside as like, we should think about this later when

we talk about your, our son's school.

so there's your wife, there is, um, I talk to people, I talked to

someone today who's like, you know, I, I put my links in this one text

document that I can never, but she's the organized one with her, her podcast

We talked to an editor a couple months ago.

They use all kinds of tools to get work done.

It's a publication.

But he personally keeps all his links in like one big text file.

But then what you find out is that those are the link

organizing, the link organizing people.

And there's always someone else in the relationship who will

only drop them in the chat.

They just sort of shoot him into this

And the fantasy of the link organizer...

is that they're going to be able to educate and train the other

person on a tool so that they can all organize links together.

They want none of that.

And this is what, but I keep seeing this pattern over and

over to the point that I've named it.

Okay, so I think the first kind I call card sorters.

Card sorters are people who don't just let a link sit there.

They actually file it away.

Well, card sorters are very like We see a lot of them because those

are the people who sign up for and are engaged in a new software product.

And then there are people who are like, we'll just, and I call them link droppers

who will just put the link in the chat.

They think the idea of signing up for a beta software product and using

it to organize information so that you might learn it is the dumbest

thing they've ever heard in their

They'd rather have a scoop of ice cream.

Just literally anything.

Here's the link.

What do you care?

Why do you want to put it in a folder?

What's wrong with you?

But what I find is that every relationship that, where people talk about how

they organize things An enormous number of fundamental relationships

have one of each, like, like, it's sort of like a lot of marriages.

It's not predictable whether it's the husband or the wife

Yeah.

I think this is correct in life, right?

Like in life, there is usually a person who's more of an organizer

and the other person just sort of shoots information out.

Also.

Both think the other one is a lunatic.

Yeah.

How can you live in this sloppy nightmare of open tabs on one side?

And why are you so uptight all the time on the other?

And, and why are you installing tools on your computer?

And yet that is most marriages

That is most marriages.

and, and many business relationships and so on and so

think it gets more interesting in business, because in

business, you know, usually the things you're doing in your life are...

Unless it's like you're both on a journey to buy a house, or on a

journey to pick a school for your kid, or whatever, it's usually optional.

Yeah, but even there, it's one link dropper and one

It still is.

I think that's

card sorter.

other, the other scenario of work, if you're doing it for work,

get fired if you don't do it.

that's fear, right?

That's, that's the secret.

Why is enterprise software a trillion dollar industry?

Because if you don't use the ERP system, you don't get to have the job.

Yeah, exactly.

It's like, oh, where's that claim?

I don't know.

It's in the, it's in the chat.

You're not allowed to say that at work.

Look,

know what it is?

in the chat.

actually, weirdly, now you kind of are.

I hope

No, this is slack.

I've seen this pattern, I guess.

but, but there are systems

You want to know

of record that hold an insurance claim

Oh, oh, the real

The real stuff.

you know, this was actually, um, Slack emojis were used to make

decisions at that giant crypto company in the Bahamas that melted down.

Is that

Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of like,

like how they scored.

they like would reply to investments like,

you know, with like thumbs up.

Well, that's, yeah, the investigators didn't

So our look you are look what we're doing right now is is

Being we're being we're listening to people and being thoughtful about how

they use a tool Is it your belief?

I think what you're saying is you're never gonna change anyone.

first of all,

you saying

first of all, this was just a discovery for me, my wife and I,

we go back and forth between, she's very organized around a lot of stuff.

She works in project management.

She is anything related to the home, to our, to our taxes.

She's very buttoned up.

Anything related, but like, I'll make a board using our tool for

Christmas gifts or things like that.

Like I'm, I also, I have my categories where I like to be organized and

we kind of meet in the middle.

But I think like, It's definitely one is more motivated than the

other at any given time, and overall she's way more organized than I am.

Um, so I think, but it was just wild to hear this narrative over and over again.

It was wild to hear the organized types, the card sorters, just sort of lament that

they could, you know, they had all these systems, like I made a Google Sheet, or

did all the work,

a Ford to fill out there.

Well, they love to feel superior.

They like to sort the cards.

but they also kind of throw guilt at

Well, what they hate is cutting and pasting things on mobile.

That's the like, the worst interface to information that has ever

been created is mobile cut and

it's actually

Yeah, it's just a bad experience.

and it doesn't

Oh, even on iOS like that pop up where it's just like, Web share,

you're just, well, I just want to...

Where do people put things today?

They put them everywhere, okay?

about the card sorters, the ones that love tools and all that?

Where are they putting them?

Oh, we get a Notion that's custom built for them.

Notion?

You get a Notion?

Yeah, that is like a, they use Google Sheets, they use Asana, they

spreadsheets, anything that'll hold some stuff.

yes.

And they're very committed to it, to do with, you know, just whatever.

And, uh,

to keep lists of

and they, they feel passionate about it until

they move on to the next one.

But then do they give a login to, to the, to the link dropper person?

And what happens then?

They don't go

No, they put stuff in there.

They mean well, but they put stuff in chat.

Yeah, so it's just, you see this, and then you'll hear these other

stories, which will be like, well, did you know that every chat, like on

WhatsApp, you can see all the links?

Same with Slack.

You can see all the links that everyone puts.

them out and they list them out

That doesn't make anything better.

Have you ever seen that thing?

It's just

It's bad.

brar.

So, so what's been interesting.

So, you know, there's two ways to look at this.

First of all, our product has to appeal to the card sorter types.

It's literally a product where you sort cards.

So

I mean, they are your advocate

there you're, you're not going to get the link droppers in.

No?

No, only the card sorters will bring the link droppers to the

Okay, but will the link droppers use it?

What we can aim for is for the link droppers to have just enough,

so like if they put a link in the chat, it should turn into a card, but the cards

are, we're not going to change humans.

And what I, what I'm actually,

turn this into some advice, because we're speaking pretty abstractly,

and I think, I think I have something to

all right, you go first and I've got some advice

Well, I think, I think...

The hardest thing you can do, and probably the least glamorous thing

you can do, as a product leader...

Focus on the simple and stubborn user who doesn't want to learn

your tool, isn't impressed by your features and somehow win them over.

Even if you're winning them over for one tiny corner of the

experience, you're winning them over.

And that's really, really, really hard to do.

It's hard.

It's the hardest thing to do.

It's easy.

If someone is a nerd who loves playing with apps.

Signs up to every free

you can give them a try.

you get them to try and then you got to kind of impress them with all

the like bells and whistles that other person who just does not care about your

fancy tech and you're trying to win over.

If you can win that person over, that is the highest bar.

If you can win that person over, you're going to win everyone else over.

And I think, I think simple mobile games.

are probably the most optimized type of software for that person

onboarding on like Candy Crush.

Is

is incredible, right?

It's satisfying.

They understand the, the, the value of, of like sort of showing you

animations like that, that simulate physics to make you feel like it's real.

Meemaw forgot to cook the turkey at Thanksgiving, but that's

Yeah, exactly.

Um, that's the hardest thing to do.

It's the hardest person to win over.

They're not impressed by your brochure.

They don't care about your software.

not that they're actually hostile.

They're indifferent.

They're indifferent.

They don't use the word software.

No one who's playing Candy Crush thinks of it as software.

No, true.

It's a, it's a game on their phone.

So aim for that person.

It's the hardest

Well, I'll make another point.

This is what I've been thinking.

This is what I've been learning.

People think they're going to change each other with software.

How's that going?

It doesn't work.

It never

People, you can't change human behavior unless their actual,

like, financial stability is at risk.

Or their job.

That's why enterprise software is so ugly, yet so pervasive.

So there's that.

But what, what can we do about that?

Well, what we can do is enable Some more simplicity in the relationship, right?

So like, I'm not gonna get somebody, the link dropper is not gonna suddenly come in

and start making cards and celebrating our beautiful taxonomy system for, with tags.

But what we could do is make it really easy for them to drop the link in

and for the card sort of drop it in.

And actually, since you can drag to tag, you know, if they want to tag something

at one time, we make it easy for them.

And then of course when you, when they do that, it's always like, They, then they

like tell everybody for three days about how they're now an expert in the system.

Drives the

Show it off.

the card sort of crazy.

But the, um, but I think the larger point is that what you're enabling

with all this stuff is not some sort of magical human empowerment.

You're enabling relationships between individuals.

They're going to use your software as a tool and it, the, that it all comes

down to them interacting with others.

You know, I want to, I want to plan a vacation with my wife.

Well, because I want to have a good experience with my wife.

What happens with software tools is they tend to emphasize their

role in this as the most important.

I made it, look, I made the greatest ever vacation planner.

And it's like, no, the job you're doing is you're saying, hey, We're

going to have a good time, and we're going to hang out, and we're

going to go to some great dinners.

I took care of some stuff for it.

And I did something for you.

Right?

Because I used this thing.

I did something for you with this thing.

And I think it's really hard for software people to be like, That's all you are.

You're a screwdriver in their pocket.

Right?

Like you're,

It's a tool that can enhance a relationship is really what you're saying

screwdrivers are, well, actually, they can enhance a

relationship if you, like, need to fix something for someone, or you,

like, keep the bed from falling apart.

Or, you know, you can, screwdrivers are important.

No, but it's no more than that is what you're saying.

Software is not the center of the

It should aspire to that and not aspire to be

this magical, wonderful elixir.

That's right and look I think the biggest mistake people make

is they think more features and more power Equals magical elixir and it's

actually the opposite the simpler it is the quicker it is to pick it up That's

why a lot of stuff that takes off is actually fundamentally really simple

like whatsapp is a very basic piece of

It's also, in no way, I mean, how many chat apps existed before?

many Many, right?

I mean, and, and they just dumbed it down the, the, they paired

it up with the phone number.

It was like, Oh, okay.

My identity.

Is my phone number.

I understand that and I can use this around the world.

long did it take you to get the pun in WhatsApp's name?

Oh, just now.

So approximately 20 years.

took me, I didn't, I, I

20 years.

it like, like a year ago.

I was like.

Oh it's what's up?

Yeah.

Uh...

don't back up their shit.

They don't use strong passwords.

I went to, let's end it with a little story.

I dropped my phone in the pool

Uh...

Okay.

it to the Apple store, the Genius Bar.

And as soon as she saw it was wet, she's like, Oh, it's wet.

We're just going to replace it.

What we do is we send it back to Apple, and they literally like have robots

dissect the parts, and whatever still

Oh, it's full of gold and snacks and yeah...

There's potato chips in

she's like, but I need to transfer your, your data.

Do you know, and she looked at me with absolute fear in her eyes and she

goes, do you know your iCloud password?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha

And I was like, of course I do.

It's like everything.

I have everything in

80, 87% of people who go by there.

oh, you're so good at this.

She was so happy because she, I lopped off.

20 minutes off the session, right?

I would have had to like, prove my identity to her, all this

stuff before she could like, you know, go through the protocol.

I punched it into the computer, like she had a computer there, uh, to log in so

they can turn off my, find my locator

Right, right, right, right.

And she, I logged in, she goes, Good for you.

She was so really why Apple has made it like they are the extreme example of ease

of use being the number one priority.

But then when the shit hits the fan, nobody knows their password.

Nobody backed up in months.

They're like, wait, you don't have your phone.

Did you back up?

I'm like, of course I have my phone backing up like every night.

It's all good.

goes to iCloud,

They gave, she gave me a medal.

Give me a blue ribbon on my forehead by the

what, that's probably the most praise you've received in like 36

been a long time.

That's separate.

That's not this podcast.

But what it highlights is.

How they've prioritized things, which is like, make it easy,

simple, basic backups and all that.

Maybe, maybe there's one person in the household that's like, everybody, give

me your phones, time to Set the backup.

Did you, I often turn to my wife and say like, there's a big security update.

Um, have you updated your phone?

it in.

She just punches you in the

just looks at me.

No, she just stares at me.

She's like, I don't know.

cares?

Um, aiming for simple is the hardest thing to do.

Yeah, and look, it's, it's, what is simple?

It's a, it's a nickname for empathy.

It's a nickname for empathy.

And then designers have been talking this forever.

But

They think simple is white space.

look.

Moore's law and the power of tech means you can put more buttons than ever, ever.

Games on a phone are better than games on a computer ten years ago.

So we, our inclination is to give you more, and what everybody

wants is something real basic.

Oh, you know what, let's close this out with some bad news.

You ready?

Oh no.

I don't think superconducting is a go.

Yeah, it didn't quite land.

The papers that are coming out now are like, eh, eh.

papers that are

they've tried to replicate.

People have replicated.

now are...

definitely something but

they're coming out.

looks like it might be regular old magnetic.

Yeah, but it's going to be, it's going to really be amazing on your fridge.

Or not, maybe there's something there, but now science has to do its thing.

it's boring.

boring.

There's no shortcuts.

So now we're in the boring zone.

So, unfortunately we have to get...

Yeah, we got to get back to regular old climate mitigation and

ha ha ha ha!

Forest

I thought, I thought we should update the podcast since I came in hot and

You were really happy about it.

I was so excited.

But you know what?

I'm going to tell you something.

That reminded me...

There's so much amazing progress, like, like the mRNA stuff, and so, like, there's

so much that's good out in the world.

Some of the AI stuff is actually kind of magical, like, if you

take aside all the politics around it, my goodness, it's glorious.

And so, um,

We should talk about what you love about it in

yeah, I mean, we got it, but it's like, it did remind me to

lean into human potential a little bit, because it's a gloomy era.

We don't have a choice,

Yeah, well, you're going to choose, well, you do,

you can choose hope or not.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I'm, I'm optimistic.

I'm naturally

You're wired.

I have to make the choice.

But here we are.

So look, check out Abort.

com.

It is launching real soon for everybody.

But if you sign up, we're going to wave you in real fast.

And, uh, we'd love to know what you make of it.

Abort.

com, follow Abort on Twitter.

We're at ZiadeFord on Twitter.

ZiadeFord.

com.

Did I forget anything?

I think that's it.

Thanks for checking the boxes, Ford.

Oh, I did.

Send an email to hello at ZiadeFord.

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