Paul found himself in a CEO position again, and he's finding trouble keeping people accountable and setting deadlines for others. Rich provides useful and universal career advice to Paul, on how to demand accountability.

Okay.

Rich Ziti Ford Advisors is the name of the podcast.

everyone.

The audience is growing.

Holy moly.

moly.

I, uh, I need advice

Oh,

once again.

So, you and I used to run an agency.

I was the CEO and you were the president.

Welcome to Ziti Advisors.

Exactly.

Yes, I was.

so now here,

of the agency.

You were the ceo.

And, uh, I was a, I would, I would call myself a non-traditional ceo,

but you know what, when you put that title by your name, uh, nobody cares.

Came before they're like, oh, you're the ceo.

Yeah.

Okay.

Uh, and now you and I have a new company, it's called a board, has another podcast.

We're gonna launch it relatively soon.

We're very excited about it.

And

podcast is live.

The product will launch relatively soon.

We've made a profound pivot and we're excited about

it.

Thank you for clarifying.

Now, uh, guess what job I have at a board this

time?

e o.

No, he didn't.

and there was a moment I woke up yesterday and I said, oh,

crap, I'm c e o of a company again.

You are

are now, you are the president and operator.

You tend to drive a lot of the strategy and the product, but I

tell the story out in the world, I have a lot of input into the

partnerships, conversations, press.

it, it's so, there is a lot of traditional CEO

stuff that I'm gonna be doing.

Sure.

Here

is my greatest weakness, just flat out, let's just put it out there.

I have tremendous trouble holding people accountable.

Hmm.

Okay.

I feel guilty about it.

I'm like, well, it's hard.

Life is hard and and it's hard to get stuff done.

And I'm, that's the only part.

I'm ready to go out there.

I'm ready to have people say, ceo, you're a servant of capitalism, burning hell.

I'm ready for all that.

I'm, I can't wait for those tweets.

That's, you're not concerned about that side of it?

Now I've already eaten that plate of goodness, and I'm, I'm ready

to eat the whole, another whole plate.

Also, I love our product.

I'm really excited to get out in the world.

You're not just, you have, you weren't hired into this job.

You're the co-founder of

top to bottom.

I, I'm like, how are we gonna work climate change into this?

Like, I can't wait.

Okay.

So I'm excited to get out in the world and, and see what kind of impact

we can have and, and have people.

I'm, I'm ready to be humili.

In public.

What's hard for me is in order to do that, I need to ask for more and more stuff.

Yeah.

And I tend to, in, in the past, I would just kind of filter it through

you and be like, oh boy, I, life is hard.

I don't wanna do that again.

Okay.

don't wanna do that again.

I'm, I'm too old.

I just need to ask for my stuff.

I need to not feel bad about it.

I need to just get my stuff done and I need people to help me.

It can't all come from me.

Right?

So I'm asking for some career coaching here.

I want you to put on your career coach hat and tell me how to.

encourage or insist on or demand accountability from others.

And let me be clear, we don't have some huge problem in a board.

You're running the shop a lot of the times.

Like

Like mm-hmm.

people aren't doing anything.

I'm just like, but I know this is in me and this time I'm just gotta deal with it.

I can't be CEO without the ability to say I need it on Thursday.

Sure.

There are.

There are some tricks here.

Um, I, I happen to be a very different personality than you.

I think if anyone listens to the podcast, they will pick that up.

Uh, I,

what you say.

I need it on Tuesday.

And they're like, it's Tuesday.

And you go, yeah.

Tuesday morning.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'll talk to you later.

you are, you are fully comfortable with, with

somebody squirming and going, I don't know how I'm gonna do that.

I have a few tips I could put forward here that I

think will help you and others.

Frankly, you don't have to be ceo.

You could be the manager of a group of people.

You could be

I'm CEO of a, I'm self-appointed or co-op appointed

CEO of a 15 person company.

So let's put it all in.

It's in scale here.

this is useful and frankly, relatively universal advice.

Here's a prerequisite before I give you the advice,

okay?

Don't ever expect anyone else down the chain to empathize with you ever.

That was a failing.

That I, I used to, I used to really suffer from

that.

We ran an agency.

An agency is a wildly volatile business, has its ups and downs,

has some bad phone calls in the mix.

It's hard and that is not something that can trickle down.

That is leadership.

Leadership absorbs those that shock and stress and actually in insulates

everyone else and don't ever go out to everyone and say, Guys, I hear you.

But it's things are tough and I need some love too.

Let's go behind the curtain for a sec.

There was a point where you and I had a, a serious conversation, not like

a confrontation, just like, boy, what is, because the agency was growing

and we're like, boy, this is tough.

Yeah.

Why are these dynamics so complicated?

And you looked at me and you said, it's really.

I demand loyalty and I'm not getting loyalty.

You look for love and you're not getting love.

And very different.

As we scale in a small organization, there's lots of

loyalty and love to go around.

Yeah.

Everybody's drinking coffee and doing the best they

It's a more intimate setting as it gets bigger and whatnot.

it gets bigger, people are looking out for themselves

in a very specific way and that like that is just life.

So that never leaves me like I know.

Do not go to the company looking for emotional.

I'm gonna give you four pieces of advice.

First, get in there and do work.

Raises an eyebrow as to why that person is doing that work.

Okay?

So, wait a minute.

Hold on.

Cuz this was a, this was a problem I used to program or jump in on things.

That's a disaster when the boss starts to do a project.

Craftspeople

don't like it when you come into the, the wood shop, right?

They don't like, they don't, they don't appreciate it.

Um, they are the experts.

You are not.

You have your job.

They have.

But I don't mean you need to do their work.

You need to do work.

You need to not just be waiting for deliverables and wagging your finger.

That may be you holding up and writing a major like position document

about the strategy of the business.

That might be something else.

That might be you saying, you know what?

I don't want you just deliver this to me.

I wanna workshop this with you.

Brainstorm before you hole up and do stuff.

I want to work with you, I want to collaborate with you.

That is different than the coroner office and just what's going on in there.

He doesn't seem to do anything.

This is interesting, right?

door is closed, et cetera.

See, this will be, this will be interesting in practice

because you've been driving

Yes.

at, at our company, at a board You've been driving and I've

been kind of sitting by you while you.

And so

and that's just out of fairness to you.

I'm a force.

It's not like you were like, oh, cool, I get to

No, no.

I kind of

I've been doing lots of

in the room.

Yes.

You've got

I've been doing lots of stuff.

I feel good about it, but I wouldn't actually qualify it in the way that,

like what you're describing, like here's the position document, here's

what I want to do about X at a board.

I haven't been writing those documents because frankly, honestly, at the

phase we're in, at the scale, we're.

If I drop in with that, it will blow up the world.

Like we can only afford one

No, it could, it could be you lining up a handful

of meetings on the west coast.

That's work,

I'm not denying that like that all needs to happen.

I'm just saying like, okay, so that's, that's a like a is I need to lean

in and transition and go like, Hey, this'll be my part of the house.

Let's go.

look man.

There are people who do have the corner office cuz they, they're good

political actors inside of large organizations and they're full of

shit and you know, good luck to

there are companies that are so big that just saying like,

Jim seems like he's doing a good job, is enough to get you promoted.

Like

got a good

Yeah.

Right.

Like that, that happens.

That is, that is the world in some

move paper across the desk and then you make $700,000

That person needs to not complain about not being respected

and having a hard time with his team, that particular person, right?

Like

Go on the internet.

Shop for jet skis.

Live your

your thing, live your life.

Second.

When you need a group of people to do something, don't

just tell them to go do it.

Have a conversation.

Explain why.

Explain why you're not maybe a hundred percent sure, but you're 80% sure.

But explain why.

Well, this was the fantasy of management that I had like in my thirties.

Mm-hmm.

was that you could delegate, you would just look someone in the eye and

you'd be like, I need you to do this.

And, and they would go and they would do it.

it.

Look

in, in some settings they would, we happen to be in a sector.

We're professionals where it's, it's much more of a collaborative dynamic or pure

It's also, it's just an unrealistic fantasy.

Things are complicated that we work on.

It's not, I'm not saying Go, go get a letter to Mike down the street.

right.

That's right.

And so when you do.

You, a couple of things happen.

First off, you are actually kind of vulnerable in that setting,

which is you thinking out loud about how you arrived at this ask

rather than I just, just do the ask.

Interesting.

But here's the thing you're saying, I think is it's critical.

I used to feel that to demonstrate leadership, I had to know everything.

I had to show that I knew everything

No, no, no.

What you're actually saying is you don't know everything.

You're just, you're the guy in charge.

So drive forward and let everybody tell you what you're.

Yes.

I'm gonna make a confession as I'm giving you this second point,

which is explain rationale.

Don't just give directives, which is sometimes I get a lot of pushback

and sometimes people hope I'll forget

Sure.

after I said it on a Monday and it's Thursday, and sometimes I gather

everyone again and I say, I explained it.

Go do it.

it.

Well, and you, you will, you will forget.

They know you well

I sometimes, sometimes, but if it's real important, I'm not gonna

forget and look, sometimes as a leader,

well sometimes you just

tick, the clock is ticking, and you need them to just do the thing.

You are in the position you're in, you're in the cockpit for a reason,

and you need the thing, and you had the discussion and they may not agree

Yeah.

But this is another tricky one cuz the, the worst leadership I've ever

seen was when someone stood up in front of a room and said, if we don't get

this done, I'm gonna look terrible.

Yeah.

That ain't, it Ain't about you my friend.

It ain't about you, Mr.

Manager.

That isn't about you.

Which just leads me to the third tip.

Uh, the third tip is share a common goal.

And by God, you getting promoted and not, or you not getting

fired is not a common goal.

That's your goal.

That doesn't, that, that's your career,

I think you're right.

That's the definition of the bad managers.

The person who's like you, you don't know how this is gonna

look when I walk up the chain.

Yeah.

And what they're insinuating there is, I am the glue that's keeping this together.

If, if this domino falls, if Mr.

Manager Domino falls, they all fall.

So you're all under threat.

A, it's fear, and B, you're showing how feckless you are.

we're and we're kind of back to like the love challenge, right?

Which is, if you don't care for me, then I don't know how it's gonna go for you.

As opposed to, and look, what are we actually saying there?

There's all sorts of personal dynamics you could like or hate somebody, whatever.

But all the, all of that conversation is, is away from the shared goal

of just getting the damn thing done and getting it out into the world,

hopefully to everyone's benefit, right?

Like a lot of times people don't understand, like a lot of

engineers don't get marketing.

Oh boy, don't they?

No.

So they're, they're like, okay, you gotta have this ready for

that conference in San Francisco.

And they're like, oh, that conference in San Francisco, they don't get, it's

not that they don't get it, they get it.

No.

This is, this is the hard

connect to it.

Right.

The, the, the most brutal fact of life is that the discipline

that you love and care for is utterly irrelevant without the other

disciplines that you tend to despise.

Right?

Like marketing can't stand.

Engineering can't stand cuz they're just like a bunch of

babies who won't get it done.

Engineering can't stand marketing cuz what?

You're gonna go tell a

They don't appreciate the complexity of what's

it's not just that all people are gonna download the app and use it.

What do you need to tell a story for

Right.

It just like, and and it's unfortunately you're just in this

position over and over in this role of being like, ah-huh, well I need both,

Right?

That's right.

Um, I think, look, there

let me be clear also, just quick confession.

A board is like the place that we've built where everybody does understand the value.

Like, you know,

know,

oh, it's a great group

cuz I know our employees are, are probably listening to this.

Like, we are really special right now.

We won't be in the future.

In the future it's gonna grow.

And though all those things from the world are gonna come back into this org.

So I'm planning for that.

Yeah.

Um,

Let's

talk about the Nirvana estate.

Very few managers get to it.

Mm-hmm.

You're like on sub pop, you put out bleach, and now you butch

vag is gonna produce, nevermind.

That's the Nirvana state.

Yes, but I It's a different Nirvana state.

That's one Nirvana state.

Lemme talk about another Nirvana state.

This nirvana state is actually, um, achieved by the manager

who over time has gained

The trust of their judgment by everyone else, so that a lot of the

legwork that's often required to get people to do things is kind of gone.

Sometimes people get that just, just sheer power.

Power is the ability to get people to do things they otherwise wouldn't do.

Michael Bloomberg doesn't really need to explain why he wants you to do a

could walk in this room right now.

First, I don't know if he's ever been to Brooklyn, but he could

he's flown over Brooklyn.

That's

In his, in his private jet helicopter and he could say, I

need you both to take off your pants.

And we'd probably.

I'd probably wait on your cue, Paul.

I'd be like,

I'd

well, I mean, we're here.

I'd be, I'd be like, okay, Mike, what, what, what's next, sir?

Right now?

That's an un.

I mean, that's a, that's a rare figure.

Uh, and, and you know, the CEO is strolling through, but sometimes

people and smaller teams, you see this sometimes where the leader is, there's

just true trust in their judgment.

It sometimes stings because you may have worked on a thing over

the weekend and they shoot it down,

you know, the, there's,

oh, Right.

It might be trust, but there's an element of fear there too,

which is my last point.

Sometimes you just need to get what you.

And you need it quickly and it's tough and

it's

rich.

Can I be this guy?

I'm Mr.

No, I don't think you can.

You can't be who you aren't.

Right?

The, the easiest way to get people to line up, and this goes back to common

goal, is if there is an external.

Actor or commitment that you're all looking at.

Like our client, Sally, we promised her Friday.

So it's not coming.

It's not like, Hey, I want it.

you are a conduit for external pressure.

Right.

And, and I use this trick.

I used this trick, I've used it my whole career, which is like,

we're gonna throw a party like a really big one and we're gonna show

these things so we can't look like

It needs to work for the

We used to work for the party.

We've done it with the board.

It's, I, I don't view it as Wiley or underhanded.

Frankly.

E everybody knows the value of the launch working backwards from the

it's a tangible, common goal.

It doesn't have to be software.

It could be anything.

It also clarifies, because otherwise you'll try to do everything.

the easy one though.

Mm.

you have a client that's expecting something or there's

an event you're preparing for.

The harder one is just you saying, I just want it by Friday.

Why are you still spinning on

That's where I want to get to.

I gotta, and it's not, it's not natural for me, but it's hard.

But I'll tell you what, I don't have the emotional energy for the other stuff.

I just need to start asking and let people, I used to be terrified of being

disliked and then, you know what happened?

What

people disliked me a lot.

Lot, a lot.

And it turns, you know what else happened?

I survived.

Let, let me give you p Paul Fords specific

advice.

Okay?

You were the ceo.

Which frankly is a do or die position to be in your agency could have

created, maybe you could argue, should have CRA it didn't and you

had an incredibly successful exit and now you're CEO again, the, I'm

not gonna untangle your psychology,

about feeling like an imposter.

Always.

All you have to do is look at the story so far and that should

give you, that should arm you with the ability to ask for something for Thursday.

Um, or it could be an argument that we've

over-inflated the value of the ceo.

No, no, not doing

not gonna help your

that.

That's not gonna help my cause

We've been talk, sorry,

I will say, I mean over the last, like it, it's funny cuz this flip

back on this, this like mode of CEO hood , like, like I said, 15 person company.

I'm not taking it like I'm not running Microsoft here,

but at the same time, like.

, I'm remembering, hey, this is what I need and this is what I need to do.

I'm gonna just start doing it Rich.

I'm gonna start asking for things.

I'm gonna write notes in my little org mode file, and I'm gonna check

them off if they're done or not done.

And I

you're gonna give people deadlines.

I don't think there's any other way for me to be

right now and do a good job.

So I better do it.

it.

It's the right way to be.

And I'll tell you something else, Paul.

Most of the time people want it.

I always did.

I always, I, I

want it.

They wanna know what success looks

like.

I grieved and really lost.

Uh, something.

When I left a world of deadlines and discreet tasks that I could

it frames your work life

I was a writer.

Like that's a high level thing to be right?

And you'll be like, I got the thing done, aren't I a good person?

And they'd be like, yeah, you are.

I still do.

When I write for Wired, I have a boss who is younger than me and my editor,

and he tells me what to do and he fixes my work and he says, good job or bad.

And I still.

Yep.

I think it's actually, it's a really fundamental human thing

to, once you want someone to say, good job every now and then,

Uh, I hope this helps you and I hope it helps others, Paul.

Well, I think there's two things going on.

I mean, one is like kind of quiet, which is here I am announcing to

the world that if you knew Paul, he tended to be a little wishy-washy.

I'm still deep inside, gonna be a pretty wishy-washy person.

I'm sure I'll still see all the ambiguity.

I'm tired and getting older, and I'm gonna ask for my stuff because

life is short and it's just how it's gonna go from here on out.

Right.

welcome Paul Ford ceo.

Uh, hopefully next time I'll have something I need advice from you on.

Uh, you owe me one.

Thank you for listening to the Zian Fort pos podcast.

We are.

rianFord@ciford.com And everywhere you can find podcasts, give us

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