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Episode 403 - Gaza
10th October 2023 • The Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove • The Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove
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We discuss feedback about The Voice episode and the Israel-Palestine conflict in this episode.

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Transcripts started in episode 324. You can use this link to search our transcripts. Type "iron fist velvet glove" into the search directory, click on our podcast and then do a word search. It even has a player which will play the relevant section. It is incredibly quick.

Transcripts

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Suburban Eastern Australia, an environment that has, over time,

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evolved some extraordinarily unique groups of homo sapiens.

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Despite the reputation of their homeland, some are remarkably thin

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skinned, some seem to have multiple lifespans, a few were once thought

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to be extinct in the region.

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Others have been observed being sacrificed by their own, but today we observe a

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small tribe akin to a group of meerkats that gather together atop a small mound

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to watch, question, and discuss the current events of their city, their

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country, and their world at large.

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Let's listen keenly and observe this group fondly known as the

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Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove.

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Hello and welcome dear listener.

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Episode 403, Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove podcast.

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I'm Trevor, aka the Iron Fist.

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Also known as the racist Iron Fist, but we'll get onto that later.

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With me as always.

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Scott the Velvet Glove.

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How are you, Scott?

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Not too bad, thanks, Trevor.

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And yourself?

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I've got my microphone this week.

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Yes, good to see.

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You actually had it the other week.

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It was in a box somewhere in your house.

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It was in a box somewhere in my house, yeah.

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And Joe, Joe the Tech Guy's with us.

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Evening all.

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Yeah, so if you're in the chat room, say hello.

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Or one of them.

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Yes, the one person in the chat room.

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Say hello.

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Who are you in there?

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Keen to know.

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Yeah.

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Well, what are we going to talk about in this episode?

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A little bit of a feedback from my voice episode.

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And then of course, we've got to talk about Israel, Palestine, Gaza, Strip,

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and everything that's going on there.

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Solve the problems of the Middle East in half an hour.

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That's what podcasters do.

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So we'll have a go at that.

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Don's in the chat room, Chris is in the chat room.

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Good on you guys.

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Thanks for...

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Joining us.

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Right.

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So yeah, last week was my recorded episode on The Voice.

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Had a lovely time in North Queensland, a tropical island, getting away from it all.

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And got some feedback afterwards.

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Some good and some bad.

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So, Jimmy sent a lovely message, which was, Hi Trevor, just wanted to shoot

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you a quick message after listening to your podcast about The Voice.

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I just want to congratulate you and your commend you for a well reasoned and

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thoughtful opinion which is contrary to the popular opinions amongst my friends.

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In fact, it was extremely brave.

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I will still be voting yes, but I can't say that there was anything

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you said that I disagreed with.

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Very well done.

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Thanks.

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Fantastic feedback, Jimmy.

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Like, I don't expect to change people's minds, but that's a lovely comment.

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Thank you for that.

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Wotley he sends me voice messages.

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An interesting thing about Wotley is he's still thinking about it.

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He's still not sure what he's doing, but he's humming and ah ing and over the

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place, so some nice feedback from Wotley.

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Roman sent me an email and had a few things that she wanted to sort of,

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pick up with me where she differed she did just mention generally

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moving away from her critique of the podcast, but just generally that she's

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disappointed the way the voice debate has been going on, on both sides.

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Gentlemen, your observations of the debate in general that you've

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seen online, on Facebook, Twitter.

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In other places, anything about the debate struck you?

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I think the Yes camp left their run too late.

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You know, it's one of those things like, it's all very well for Albanese to be

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puffing his chest out saying that we've had some good results in the last month.

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Yeah, but that was probably three months too late.

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Had they started three months ago, had they been doing what they've

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been doing in this last month, then you probably would be looking at a

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more competitive position for Yes.

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But I think it's probably too late for them.

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So what have they been doing lately that they weren't doing before?

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I don't know.

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I don't watch a whole lot of news.

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I only read what's in the, I only read what's online and that type of thing, so.

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Right.

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You know, it's well, Albanese was up here in Queensland spruiking

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it and all that sort of thing.

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I don't know why he's bothering, because I think that's a lost state to them.

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Mm.

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You know, I would have thought that he's probably better off, you know,

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what's the current liberal that's the centre, the moderate in Tasmania?

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What's her name?

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Bridget Archer?

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Bridget Archer.

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Yeah.

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I think to myself that, you know, if Albanese wants to actually have

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a success, he should be down there because apparently Tasmania looks

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like they're going to vote yes.

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And that's because Archer has been crisscrossing the whole state saying,

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you've got to get out and vote yes.

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You know, and I don't know about New South Wales and Victoria.

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I think Victoria's looking at going, yes.

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New South Wales is potentially gonna go No, but they're just

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not sure the two that they can write off of Queensland and wa Mm.

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Yeah.

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Joe, the debate in general, any thoughts?

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I have seen the usual because of course my local potato mm-hmm.

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Is he, he sent out some brochure.

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Which was, oh, it's all indecisive, there's no real meat to it, vote

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no because we can't be sure.

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Mm.

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Which I have to say is a fairly shit argument.

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Mm.

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It's an appalling argument because, you know, he might as well be attacking

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the entire Constitution because the Constitution doesn't actually

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say, you know, they make up the courts and all that sort of stuff.

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It says you've got to have courts.

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Mm.

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So you've got the courts, but you've just got to make them up.

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So, but, but aside from that, and there was a few Facebook

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ads, I really don't do Twitter.

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But in terms of the media, I've seen a lot of coverage, which has mostly been

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aiming on the left, on the yes side.

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There was some balanced stuff from the ABC, which was we interviewed a

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bunch of people, pro and con and then there was probably the conversation,

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there was something debunking the UN land grab and talking about

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some former soap star, apparently, who's got deep into the conspiracy

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weeds, so there's the United States.

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Nations, something on indigenous persons.

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There's a statement on indigenous people that DUN has brought out and

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I don't know exactly what it says.

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And apparently if you, oh, so there's a lot in there about reparations

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and land rights and negotiating with a, an Indigenous council

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that is nationwide to come in for mining rights and things like that.

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Right.

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So it's a sort of a conspiracy argument that if the voices pass, then these

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UN resolutions will have effect.

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Basically.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Yep.

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Yep.

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So, I don't know.

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I don't participate on Twitter.

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I just look at stuff, trying to find interesting topics for this podcast.

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So there's a lot of left leaning people in life.

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Followed over time.

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I'll tell you what, I think they're really falling into the basket of

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deplorables argument a lot of the time.

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Where it's just exasperation by a lot of people on the left when they

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say we're losing this referendum.

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Goddamn racists who are out there voting, no, and...

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Really, just essentially saying if anyone is voting no, they must be a racist,

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they're deplorable people and isn't it terrible that we've got this situation

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and you couldn't possibly be voting no for reasons that were not racist.

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Brexit was the same, and I think Trump was the same.

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Yeah, so I think there's a lot of that going on.

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So yeah, the standard of...

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I don't think there's any doubt about it at all.

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It's something we said right from when it was first mooted.

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I thought to myself, well, this is just going to be another...

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This is going to be a way that the, that the yes voters are going to have

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to say, well, look at these bunch of racists and that type of thing.

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And I said right from word go that this was going to be a divisive bloody campaign

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that would not be, would not show us well at all in the light of the whole country.

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It would make us all look like a pack of lunatics.

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I don't think the rest of the world's going to care.

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So two months afterwards.

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I just, I think you're probably right there.

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I just think to myself that It sounds like a pretty good argument right

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now, that you've got to actually worry about what the rest of the world's

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going to say, but I think you're right, that in two or three months

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time, no one's going to give a toss.

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And Australia has an international reputation of

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being a bunch of racists anyway.

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Oh, absolutely we do, yeah.

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Yeah, so, not to slot in with the perception of Australia anyway.

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Well, exactly.

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So, I don't know.

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The debate itself...

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I still haven't seen anything that's been impressive in the debating that

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deals with the topics and the issues.

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It's very tribal sort of thinking in just buy in statements without

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getting into the nitty gritty.

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That I like to think I got into in my spiel.

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People may disagree, but you know, it's hard enough with well meaning

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people to get your ideas across.

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So, I mentioned Bronwyn has emailed me with some sort of

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issues she wants to take up.

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And the first issue that she mentioned, I really don't think I said it at all.

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And so I've really just gone back to her and said, look on this first one,

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tell me exactly what you think I've said, because I don't think I said that.

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At all.

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And, you know, I'll wait for Bronwyn to come back to me.

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But and even Paul from Canberra back in August tried to sort of state

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what he thought my position was.

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And his sort of one sentence statement of what he thought

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it was was completely wrong.

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It was not my position at all.

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And so when well meaning people who were listening and trying to, I guess,

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understand your position I think get it wrong then what do you do when people who

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are not so well meaning want to, you know, hear you and immediately want to sort

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of think the worst of you and start...

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Almost intentionally misinterpreting what you're saying and seeing

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the worst in what you say.

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So I know Broman and Paul would be looking at it, trying to think in

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the best light, but there are people out there who just want to, you know,

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take So what you're saying is mm-hmm.

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. Yeah.

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Do you not remember that interview?

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No?

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What was that interview?

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Oh Channel 4 probably five years ago, Jordan Peterson.

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Ah, okay.

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Who I have no time for.

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Yes.

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But she was continually strawmanning everything that he said.

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Yes.

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And she'd be saying, so what you're saying is, gives a strawman

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explanation, and he'd say, no, that's not what I'm saying at all.

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Yes.

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And she'd not listen to his answer and then strawman him on the next question.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, now she was intentionally not well meaning.

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She was trying to set him up and trying to push an agenda she had.

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Yeah, yeah, I mean, I don't know that she was doing it deliberately, but

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certainly she wasn't listening to him.

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Yes, yeah, so, so yeah, and then on Twitter there was this There's a Twitter

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person, ex skeptic, is voting yes.

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If you're interested, go on Twitter and have a look at the, the sort

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of things that this person was saying, and I'm just looking at it

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going, what are you talking about?

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You just haven't been listening to what I've been saying.

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You're just talking nonsense.

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So, I can't be, I don't enter into social media debates and it's just not

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the forum to, if people are well meaning and nice and they contact me by email,

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then I'll respond that way, but I just don't just don't get into online debates,

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but, yeah, very difficult to have...

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But people don't want to have a long form conversation.

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Well, not, that's, that's...

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Possibly too broad, but lots of people don't want to have

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a long form conversation.

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Hmm.

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Because that requires effort, they just want 140 characters,

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that's it, I've said my piece.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, the rant.

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So, so anyway, that's the position at the moment on The Voice.

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Bronwyn suggested afterwards maybe just do a little bit on the debate

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post the decision and what it means to Australia and the sort of...

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Republican party style tactics that were used by Dutton and Co.

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Maybe we'll get to that.

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It's one of those things.

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I think that on, I think that on Sunday morning, once we know the

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result you know, we'll just move on.

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You know, it, it comes down to whether or not Albanese wishes to legislate a voice.

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He said he won't.

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I know, he said he won't.

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It's one of those things, it's I was having a chat to a Torres Strait Island

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gentleman this morning when I was out for a walk, and he was actually very

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positive around ethic, and I said that I had listened to something around that on

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7am, and The Attic decision by the Howard government was wrong, because rather than

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just tinker with it and modernize it and take it down from the top, they abolished

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the whole bloody thing, you know, which was, which was wrong, and they didn't

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replace it with anything, which again was wrong, so that is why I'm with you.

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That's why I favour the voice, that we're getting a vote on it for our

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constitution now because it would make it a hell of a lot harder for a future Tory

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government to come in and just destroy it.

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Anyway, that's enough of a rehash of the voice and I went to vote

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yesterday and I was surprised by the number of people who pulled into

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the place before me and after me.

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There was a steady stream of people who were early voting.

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Right.

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So that was on a Monday?

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Hmm.

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So, I mean, obviously, I'm going to be overseas, but be surprised

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that that number of people had a reason not to vote on Saturday.

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Hmm.

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It's one of those things they're asking, they're asking up here, they're just

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saying to people when they arrive, do you have a reason, you've got a reason

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that you can't make it in on Saturday?

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And he says, oh, yeah, I do.

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And they didn't ask what it was.

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They just said, yeah.

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I mean, I told them that I was travelling and therefore wouldn't

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be there, but all they said was...

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Do you have a valid reason for early voting?

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Yes.

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Go ahead.

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Oh, okay.

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I hadn't thought of that.

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That's exactly what they're doing up here too.

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Right.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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I need to have a line ready for that.

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It's one of those things.

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I'm just going to go in on Saturday.

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Now, enough on the voice.

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Shall we move on to...

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Israel, Palestine.

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So yes, over the weekend, we had that incident where Palestinians broke out of

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the Gaza area into, across the demarcation line and rockets were fired, people were

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killed by gunfire as well, and hostages were taken back into the Gaza, and the

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world is in shock and you've all no doubt read bits and pieces about it.

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And really, the thing that strikes me about this is that sort of Jewish

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suffering in Nazi concentration camps, you know, generated enormous

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sympathy for Jewish people, rightly so.

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And we've come around to the point now where, where Israel is really

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conducting In the Gaza, some sort of modern day Warsaw Ghetto, for

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various reasons that we'll get into.

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A ghetto, possibly.

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Your previous, your show notes say concentration camp, which I would

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disagree with, and they are not.

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Not doing the wholesale industrial slaughter that the Nazis did.

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Hmm.

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I like the Warsaw Ghetto one, so I threw that in.

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The Ghetto is probably more close to what's happening.

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Yeah.

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Particularly with the Ghetto in that it was a sealed, contained area that

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people couldn't move in and out of.

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But there is a difference, the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto hadn't

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said that they wanted to wipe the Nazis off the face of the earth.

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Yes, so let's get into, let's just a little bit more of the scene, and

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then, so on the one hand, you've got people particularly sympathetic to

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the Jewish Israeli side who say, this is terrible and an outrage, and...

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And, who have been completely silent to all of the Palestinian deaths

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over the last decades, but who are now outraged by the Israeli deaths.

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And then on the other hand, you've got people who are saying, well, what did

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you expect if you set up a situation like this where these people have no hope?

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And why have you, you know, why are you suddenly now concerned about

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Israeli deaths when there's been all these Palestinian deaths and

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a sort of a pro Palestinian side?

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And, and, well, Joe, add your flavour of opinion to that mix.

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Well, so, the, the whole Jewish homeland had been an issue for a long time.

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Yeah, late 19th century.

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They were talking about the pogroms that had historically happened,

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and they said we cannot trust a government to look after our rights.

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We can't trust a government to protect us from other citizens.

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We need a Jewish home.

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The problem comes from this idea that...

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The Levant was granted to them by God that it is their divine birthright

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to live in that bit of land.

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But unfortunately, Jerusalem is considered the holy land for three major religions.

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All of the Abrahamic religions.

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They all want to have control of it.

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Mm-hmm.

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, I, I know that originally there was talk of them going to Madagascar.

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There was talk at one stage of selling off a large part of wa.

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I, I think had the Jews moved to Northern wa that would probably have been good

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for Australia and good for the Jews,

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possibly not for the Aboriginals.

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But no, I don't think the Reinhardts would've agreed with that.

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But, you know, you can, well, maybe not, but.

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I just think to myself, had they taken the North West of Western Australia, then

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you could carve that into two states.

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You could call one of them Israel, the other one WA.

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Yeah, you know, you could have had a, you could have had a you

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could have had another state in the Commonwealth that could have had 12

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Senators and all that sort of thing.

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Their, their native language would have been Hebrew and that type of thing.

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So you'd end up with, you'd end up with a bilingual nation down here,

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you'd have English and Hebrew.

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So, you know.

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Sliding doors, hmm.

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Yeah, I know, and it would have, you know, I honestly believe that in

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1947 a terrible mistake was made, a terrible, terrible mistake was made.

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You know, they were trying to recreate something that hadn't

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existed for 2, 000 years.

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If it ever existed.

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If it ever existed, you know.

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Let's take their, let's take their, their explanation of history as being reality.

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That it was, it was the Jewish homeland and all that sort of stuff

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before the Romans kicked them out.

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So let's take that as realistic.

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Then, what they were trying to do was recreate something that

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hadn't existed for 2, 000 years.

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And that was absolutely crazy that they thought they could do that.

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You know, and I agree with, I agree with the whole point that Trevor raised

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saying that the barbaric manner in which the Jews were treated by the Nazis meant

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that, you know, rightly so, there was a hell of a lot of sympathy for them.

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You know, I agreed wholeheartedly with that sympathy, however, you know,

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the sympathy is being edged away.

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Little by little, every year, when you see them react so blatantly

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horrible towards the Palestinians.

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And, you know, it's one of those things, I've got an old friend of mine up in

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Toowoomba who said that what they ought to do is they would put a sign facing

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out from the Palestinian border and that sort of stuff saying, Arbeit Macht Frei,

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which is Work Will Set You Free, you know, which was the Nazi concentration camp.

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Logo that they had on the wall,

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it's one of those things,

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I'm sorry.

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Are you back with us, Scott?

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I think he pulled the cable out.

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I think he did.

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No, he's back now.

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I am back, yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's one of those things, I just think that a terrible, terrible mistake was

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made in 1947, and we've now got to deal with it right now, and I think the only

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sensible solution is a two state solution.

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But if part of that, well, what is it, around about 50 percent of the

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Palestinians are represented by Hamas, which is completely opposed

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to Israel even existing, then I just don't think you're going to

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be gaining too much transportation.

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Palestine should be an Islamic state.

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Yeah, I know that, and that's even worse.

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You know, because there's, there'd be no chance of it being secular at all.

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No, they want a Western, a Western Iran, as in an Iran to

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the west of the current West Iran.

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Yeah, I know.

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Yeah.

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And the problem is that the West Bank is just dotted with all of these

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settlements that are, some of them Palestinian, some of them Jewish.

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With these corridors, you know, connecting them, very hard to do a

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proper borderline now in that area.

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It'd be virtually impossible.

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It's a mess.

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It's a right mess.

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And who predicted the mess in the first place, Scott?

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Albert Einstein.

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Oh, did he?

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Who wrote, who wrote in the beginning this is shortly after 1947, I think

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So, let me just see what he wrote here.

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Dear Sir, when a real and final catastrophe should befall us in

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Palestine, the first responsible for it would be the British and the second

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responsible for it, the terrorist organisations built up from our own ranks.

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I'm not willing to see anybody associated with those misled and criminal people.

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So, he, he saw terrorism coming from within Jewish ranks because of...

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The nature of what was being set up.

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But interestingly, the terrorism was the Jews against the British.

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And it was the Americans who funded the Jewish landing.

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They provide the arms and the equipment.

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So...

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Yeah, I mean, you go back to 1917 with the Balfour Declaration which

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was the British talking to the Jews and saying yes, you can set up a

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Jewish homeland inside Palestine.

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Yeah, but I think the British were making those sorts of

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guarantees to everyone at the time.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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They were trying to, they were trying to undo the Ottoman Empire.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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You know, so they were making promises to the Palestinians,

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they were making promises to the Jews, and on the other side...

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They were the French.

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Yeah, I know.

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It was one of those, it's a hell of a mess.

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Mmm.

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How messy has it been in recent times?

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Bernard Keane was writing in Crikey, just talking about the number of

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deaths on the Palestinian side.

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So, in 2022, there was 117...

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172 Palestinians murdered.

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This is from...

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The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, so this

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isn't sort of Israeli or Palestinian figures, but sort of UN figures 80

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Palestinians killed in 2021 in the past decade, 3, 081 Palestinian

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civilians killed, 132, 000 injured.

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They just want to grab the lands, though.

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Yes.

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The Palestinians.

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No, no, the United Nations.

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Yes, thanks Joe.

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Just like they're trying with the Aboriginals over here.

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Yes, that's nasty UN.

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What else have we got here?

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Ah, so that was that.

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There's all sorts of statistics available about the poor treatment of the

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Palestinians at the hands of the Israelis.

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As you rightly point out, Joe, there's an existential risk from the

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Palestinians towards the Israelis.

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Well, not just the Palestinians.

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All of the Arab states have tried a number of times to wipe Israel off the map.

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And they've always got a bloody nose out of it.

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They have, but that doesn't mean that they don't want to and that they

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wouldn't, given half a chance, try again.

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Yeah, I know that.

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It's probably the, nuclear, the fact that the Israelis have a nuclear bomb that

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has stopped it happening again in the last, whatever it is, 40 years, 50 years.

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Mm.

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67 was the last time it happened, that was the Yom Kippur War, wasn't it?

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I thought they said 50, 50 years and a day since the last one.

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So that was 72.

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Okay.

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73.

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Okay, gotcha.

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It's interesting, just the sort of, the propaganda and the framing

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and how media pushes certain lines and people push their own angles

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and how subtly this can be done.

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So Alan McLeod in a tweet pointed out reporting by BBC News and World

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News, and so, the BBC reported.

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More than 700 people have been killed in Israel since Hamas

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launched its attacks on Saturday.

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And at the same time, they wrote, more than 500 people have died

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in Gaza after Israel launched massive retaliatory airstrikes,

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according to Gaza's health ministry.

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So on the one hand, it's saying 700 killed in Israel, 500 in Gaza,

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but there's subtle things here.

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It said 700 people have been killed in Israel, where it said

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500 people have died in Gaza.

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And the one in relation to Gaza also finished with, according to Gaza's health

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ministry, which casts doubt on whether you want to believe their figures or not.

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So there's just a framing there that instead of saying 500 were

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killed in Gaza, it's just have died.

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And these are sort of subtle framings of things that can make a difference

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in your perception of which side you're going to favour, if any, in these things.

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So I thought that was interesting.

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Albanese our Prime Minister, has come out.

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Clearly on Israel's side in this.

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It's interesting that UK Labor last year, two years ago, had a

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big spat between the pro Israeli and the pro Palestine factions.

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Yep.

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With their accusations of anti Semitism.

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So, and I'm fairly sure Corbyn, because he was pro Palestine, that

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was one of the reasons he was toppled.

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Yes, for sure.

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In the John Menendee blog, there's a guy, Paul Hayward Smith, an Adelaide

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Kings Council of some 20 years.

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He was the initial chairperson of the Australian Friends of Palestine

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Association, and he's authored a book, The Case for Palestine.

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He was writing in the John Menendee blog, saying that there's a pressing need

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for Australians to assess the situation from an informed and balanced position.

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Australians must understand that what they are seeing is the response of

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a people pushed beyond endurance.

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And essentially there's been a blockade in the Gaza for 16 years.

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Nothing goes in or out without Israel, Israeli approval.

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And now what did he say here is Australia's failure to act has

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contributed to the current quagmire.

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Had the ALP on gaining office in 2022 done what its rank and file had called for

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at, at a preceding national conference, Namely, to recognise Palestine, who

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knows what might have followed, and he argues that some other countries might

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have followed, recognising Palestine, if Australia had, and maybe that would

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have been enough to keep them happy, I don't know about that, but in any event.

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I don't think it would have kept Hamas from launching the attack.

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Correct, and because we've already finished saying not so long ago that

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nobody cares what Australia thinks or does about anything anyway.

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But, that was interesting that ALP conference had called for recognising

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Palestine, wasn't aware of that, but ALP leadership doesn't follow that line.

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I thought the vast majority of countries have recognised Palestine.

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Hmm, probably not the sort of main Western countries, would that be right?

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Yeah.

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I don't think so.

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Hmm.

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So yeah of course, Richard Marles, our Defence Minister, said the

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unprovoked attacks from militant Hamas on Israel are abhorrent.

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There is no justification for these brutal attacks on Israel.

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Australia calls for these attacks to end and recognise

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Israel's right to defend itself.

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So you know about The U.

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S., I mean, A, there's a large Jewish vote in the U.

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S., which is why the U.

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S.

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very, very heavily supports Israel.

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But the evangelicals believe that the second coming of Christ is going to be

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kicked off by a war of the Middle East.

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So, a lot of evangelicals are deliberately trying to foment war in

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the Middle East because they believe it heralds the second coming of Christ.

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Yes, and a lot of weapons manufacturers are quite happy

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to see trouble there as well.

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So yeah, so that was Richard Marles.

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Meanwhile, the Greens, Jenny Leong from the Greens.

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She was complaining on Twitter because...

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Albanese had said that the pro Palestine protest should not go ahead, and...

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Bernard Keane had commented, what next, a ban on criticising Israel?

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And this Jenny Leong, the MP, Greens MP said but apparently lighting

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up the Australian Parliament and Sydney Opera House in support of

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those bombing Palestinian people in Gaza into oblivion is legit.

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Disgraceful to see political leaders fail to recognise the complexity and reality of

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this human rights and humanitarian crisis.

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So, what do you think, Scott or Joe, should the Australian Parliament

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or the Sydney Opera House be lit up in Israeli colours or flags to show

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support, or should we stay neutral on

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the opposition?

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I'm not entirely sure about that.

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It's one of those things, I, I can understand the government wanting to

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light the place up blue and white just to say that, you know, we're on the

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Israel side and that type of thing.

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Because this does appear to have...

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Should we be on Israel's side in this to recognize, I think we've got

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to recognize a Palestinian state.

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And, you know, we've got to actually sit down with Fatah and that sort of

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stuff and actually negotiate with them.

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I don't think we should be talking to Hamas.

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But I do believe that we should be talking to Fatah and that sort of stuff to try

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and get something knotted out with them.

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And I think that if the, I think if the rest of the Western world would

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go along with that and saying, look, we're going to negotiate with Fatah,

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we're not going to negotiate with Hamas, then eventually Hamas will end

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up withering on the vine and dying.

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Unfortunately Hamas is supported by the people in in the Gaza Strip.

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In the Gaza Strip.

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Yeah, I know that.

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And that's why...

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The blockade is because Hamas was rocketing Israeli settlements, and

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so it was to stop weapons being brought in, particularly from Egypt.

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There was a huge problem with missiles and rockets coming in from Egypt.

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I really don't know how you solve it.

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There is no solution, but there is no solution.

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You, you, you've got to actually, you've got to bang their two heads together

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because you know, they're, you know, they're both, that's what they're doing.

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Yeah, I know, but you've got to actually, you know, you've got to actually bang

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their heads together because, you know, you're one, one's the tribe of Abraham.

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The other one's the tribe of Abraham and they were both brothers, you know, it's.

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Family fights are the worst.

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Yeah, I know, but this is the whole point.

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The world is being dragged into this whole bloody family feud, which is ridiculous.

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Just getting back to this provoked and unprovoked.

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So Richard Miles said the unprovoked attacks from militant

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Hamas on Israel are abhorrent.

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And Caitlin Johnston in an article quotes a whole bunch of people who

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like the White House, for example, said the United States unequivocally

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condemns the unprovoked attacks.

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And House Speaker Jim Jordan said, The unprovoked terror attack today.

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And Robert F.

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Kennedy Jr.

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said, The ignominious, unprovoked, and barbaric attack.

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And she goes on and on with people saying unprovoked.

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Like, Joe, even somebody with a fairly hard ish position like yours on the danger

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of Palestinians having access to weapons, etc., etc., You couldn't claim it was an

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unprovoked attack, like you'd say, Oh, and plenty of provocation to do what they did.

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Would you say it was unprovoked?

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You'd be happy to say, yeah, it was provoked, but it's all in context.

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I was going to say it's provoked on both sides, but at the end of the day, don't

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think the Jewish people should be there.

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It wasn't like it was an empty piece of...

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ground that they bought.

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They claimed it by divine right and invaded.

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Yeah.

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And you know, it's bloody crooked what they actually did.

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You know, they, they shot the poor bastards up that

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couldn't get away on time.

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And it was really criminal the way they actually took over the place.

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Yeah.

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But you can have a pretty dim view of palace of Palestinians

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and Hamas and, and yet.

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You really can't go to the point of saying it was unprovoked.

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There was plenty of provocation there.

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It's just a function of, of what the situation's been in.

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So, but yeah, people are running around saying it was an unprovoked attack.

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Yeah, I know that, but you know, it's just one of those things, I've

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said it before and I'll say it again.

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You know, do you honestly believe if the PLO were as well armed as the IDF, that

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they would show the same sort of restraint that the IDF has shown, or would they

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drive the Jews into the Mediterranean?

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I think the latter would be more, would be more likely.

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Couldn't argue against you.

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Couldn't argue against you.

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So, it's just a mess.

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It's a mess from its inception, and there is no solution.

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It was an absolute travesty that they actually did it.

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Right, what else can we say about it?

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A bit of Caitlin Johnston.

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Nobody can tell me what the Palestinians should do instead that

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is both realistic and reasonable.

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It would be easy for me to sit here in my armchair and say the Palestinians

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should either maintain the status quo or lie down, relinquish their homes

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and homeland and accept whatever table scraps they're able to get, but

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we can see it from the Palestinian perspective that that's not reasonable.

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It would be easy for me to sit in my armchair and argue that Palestinians

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should just focus on securing A one state or two state solution, but we

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can see from the Israeli political landscape that that's not realistic.

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So what else can they do?

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What reasonable and realistic options do they have?

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No one can provide me with a satisfactory answer.

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Ultimately, this is just Palestinians doing what they feel they need

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to do out of total desperation.

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Because they feel backed into a corner with no other options.

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And they feel backed into a corner with no other options because that

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does not appear to be the case.

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But Fatar seem to have reached a better settlement, a better agreement.

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So it's not the Palestinians, it's Hamas.

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So Fatah being in the West Bank.

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West Bank, yeah.

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It's one of those things, I just think to myself that I can understand where

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she's coming from, but by the same token, what's this going to get them?

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All it's going to do is, all it's going to do is result in Israel taking

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out a very heavy hammer and they're going to smash it down hard on the,

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on the people that are in Gaza.

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So let's talk about West Bank then, Joe.

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Should the people in, the Palestinians in the West Bank just accept what

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they've got and Israel should come to some two state solution with the, with

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the Palestinians in the West Bank?

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That's what was being negotiated.

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No, I think Israel...

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From what I understand, the new settlers are coming in and

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building willy nilly as well.

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Hmm.

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It doesn't seem the current Israeli government is up for a two state solution.

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No, they're not.

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Even in the West Bank.

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Well, let's just ignore the Gaza for the moment, but...

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Whether you stick UN peacekeepers in as has happened in a number of states...

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Yeah, but see, you're going to have to have the UN there permanently, aren't you?

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Yes, absolutely.

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There are so many pocketed little settlements intermixed amongst each other.

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You'd need an enormous force if you were to repartition.

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Yes.

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It's one of those things, I think that, I think the Jews are going to have to

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abandon their whole settlements and that sort of stuff, but rather than

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actually bulldozing them like they did the last time they abandoned them,

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they ought to actually pack up and then leave, and leave behind the homes and

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everything that were built there for the Palestinians to actually inhabit.

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Right.

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Do you Israelis should, should retreat back out of the settlements

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and they should leave the settlement buildings and that sort of stuff

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behind with keys and everything for the Palestinians to take them up.

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Yeah, that's just never going to happen, isn't it?

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I know, because, you know, the last time they did that, which was after the...

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government told them to, they wouldn't do it.

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Yeah, I know, it's...

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The last time they actually retreated from a settlement and that sort of

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stuff, it was a ridiculous situation that they had a that they actually

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bulldozed the settlements and that sort of stuff, and then they

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withdrew, which was absolutely crazy.

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It was a real churlish thing that the Israelis did there.

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You know, where they said, well, you know, they basically raised their

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middle finger and said, well, fuck you, you're not having our buildings.

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You know, which was very churlish to do.

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Noisy Andrew.

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What would I do if my family had been forced into a

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ghetto for three generations?

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I don't know.

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I'm very lucky that I was born in Australia, so I

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don't know what I would do.

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Now, I can understand where you're coming from, because the Palestinians

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have been forced into this ghetto situation for three generations.

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Do I believe that they're actually going to get anywhere with their

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violence and that sort of stuff?

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No, I don't.

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Do I understand why they've actually taken to the streets and that

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type of thing, hurling Molotov cocktails at the, at the Jews?

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Absolutely, I do.

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I fully understand that.

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Do I support them?

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No, I don't.

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But, it's one of those things, I don't know what the answer is.

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You know, it's a terrible, terrible mistake that was made in

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1947.

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Yeah.

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What the Israeli defense minister said, he said, quote, I've ordered

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a complete siege on the Gaza Strip.

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There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel.

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Everything is closed.

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We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly.

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Terrible.

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I know, it's one of those things...

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It just, it creates the next generation of Hamas supporters is the problem.

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It does.

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You know, because...

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Even without religion, I was talking to my wife about this because we were just

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talking about religious differences, and I was like, even if you wiped out religious

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differences, there's so much bad blood now where just as a, you know, on each side,

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particularly the Palestinian side would be saying those goddamn people over there...

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We're responsible for killing my mother, my father, my uncle, my kids, whatever,

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just a whole range of family members.

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Very impossible to sort of get these people to come to this country.

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I had this growing up with Northern Ireland, which, you

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know, that was 400 years ago.

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That all started, and they, it's a very uneasy peace agreement

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I, I think the answer is, is, is breaking up the, the enclaves.

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It's forcing them to intermingle, it's forcing them to go to the same schools.

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Yeah, but, you know, that's that all sounds well and good, but it's

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just not going to happen because you've got people that are, you've

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got people that speak Arabic, you've got people that speak Hebrew.

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So what are they gonna do?

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Which language are they gonna settle on to educate their kids?

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Are they going to educate them in Hebrew or educate them in Arabic?

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You know, I can't imagine a Jewish family and that sort of stuff

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being particularly happy that their kids are being taught in Arabic.

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I think they're all bilingual, or lots of them are bilingual.

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Yeah, I know they, they're English and Arabic.

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English and Arabic.

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English and Arabic or English and Hebrew.

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So, you know, I suppose you could actually say, well, we're gonna

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teach everything in English.

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I think even the Israeli speak.

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Arabic.

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I'll do that.

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Okay.

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But it's just, I forget the language, just there wouldn't be the trust

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in the communities for each other.

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Yeah, what a, what a complete mess.

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On the...

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Oh yeah, you've got another one saying, you know, would you, would

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you believe that creation of Pakistan in 1947 was a terrible mistake?

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Yeah, yeah.

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Partition, absolutely.

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It was a terrible mistake.

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You know, it was the only thing that, it was the only thing that kept

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them from killing each other, but...

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It was a disaster, the way it happened.

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And I don't know that it did keep them from killing each

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other because there was...

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Oh, there were terrible border disputes and everything like that.

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But even during partition, as partition happened, there were

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horrible, horrible massacres.

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So, yeah, I think India should have remained a...

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A single country.

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A single country that was secular, that didn't have an

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Islamic side and a Hindu side.

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And now we've got the Sikhs as well who want their own homeland.

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Mm.

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It's one of those things, the old boy must be rolling in his

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grave because it's all he wanted.

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Which Gandhi?

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Oh, right.

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Well, all Gandhi, all Gandhi wanted was a, was a, was a secular.

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India was, well, I, I'd heard it was Nru who wanted the secular enduring

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Gandhi was a Hindu nationalist.

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I don't know about that.

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I thought, I thought it was the other way around.

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Yeah.

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I, I couldn't tell.

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I thought both of them wanted a secular country.

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Noisy Andrew says, we can't afford a cricket team that good.

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The best of India and Pakistan together.

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Still on the comedy line.

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It's one of those things, I just think to myself, if they could

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actually get their act together over cricket, then that would have

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actually solved a hell of the problems.

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Still on the comedy line, good news from Canada breaking news, Canadian

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lawmakers have announced that in solidarity with Israel, they won't honour

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Waffen SS veterans for one whole week.

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Do you remember that scene where the Canadian parliament stood up and gave a

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standing ovation to some Nazi SS veteran?

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Did you see that?

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I don't remember that.

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He was a Ukrainian.

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Yes.

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Who had fought against the Soviet Union during the Nazi occupation.

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Right.

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So he had joined the Waffen SS as a, basically as a foreign legion.

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Right.

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So he had fought, he'd joined a foreign legion of Germans to

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fight against the Soviets during the Soviet occupation of Ukraine.

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Right.

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And he had joined up as a 17 year old.

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Right.

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Did he deserve a standing ovation in Canadian Parliament, Joe?

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It's very difficult to say.

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If he'd been a Soviet soldier, should he have had a standing ovation?

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The Soviets were as brutal as the Germans.

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Right.

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In that case, probably not.

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Probably shouldn't be giving standing ovations to soldiers.

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I think there were no rights, there were no wrongs on that.

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It was a horrible...

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It was a terrible clusterfuck, I think.

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Mm.

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How's that Ukrainian counter offensive going?

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Are we finished with with Gaza?

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The Ukrainian counter offensive...

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Are you done and dusted with Gaza?

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I think so.

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Oh, is it?

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It is.

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Very, very slowly.

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Right.

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It's one of those things, they're going to have to pull up stumps on it

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before too long because the raining season's about to start, and then

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after that it's going to go to snow.

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So, I think that we'll have to wait until next year to find out

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where it's going to end up at all.

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Right.

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Well, so, the military analyst that I listen to has actually said, because

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these aren't large scale armoured.

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movements, actually, the minor things that are happening will carry

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on happening through the winter.

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Because it's a handful of troops.

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Basically, because the amount of artillery, you cannot amass

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a large armored formation to break through the lines.

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So it's, it's had to be piecemeal.

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You take a position, dig into that position, make yourself set up and

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then move to the next position.

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So it's, it's slowly inching forward.

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According to the New York Times, they put out a graph saying that since

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January 1, Ukraine has gained 143.

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square miles of territory.

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Yes.

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The only problem is that the Russians gained 331 square miles.

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Absolutely.

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Because the Ukrainians are attacking heavily defended lines and the

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Russians are effectively attacking Some Ukrainians in a field, so completely

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different levels of effort required.

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Yeah, and the point is the Ukrainians are trying to inch their artillery forward

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enough to break the land bridge to Crimea.

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And once they do that, effectively, the Crimean peninsula is isolated.

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The Russians regaining land really doesn't matter.

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It's, yeah, I mean, it's, it's fields.

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So it's important to Ukraine as there are foreign invaders on our soil.

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It's important to the villagers who are being terrorized by the Russian soldiers

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who appear to be badly disciplined underpaid and are taking it out on the

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villagers that they can get their hands on and looting the houses because they're

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not getting enough money from the army, so they're taking whatever they can.

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But in strategic terms, I don't think the landmass that the Russians

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are taking has any major impact.

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So anyway, with the counter offensive probably won't know to

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be continued next summer, almost.

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Oh, absolutely.

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So the Russian Minister of Defence has said the war has

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to last till 2025 at least.

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Right.

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So the Russians are in it for the long haul.

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The question is whether the Western Allies will keep up providing munitions and, and,

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if we're waiting now another till the next summer, can we really call it the same

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counter offensive, if that's the case?

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Who knows?

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Probably be another counter offensive, is what I thought.

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Okay.

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Anyway.

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It depends if they manage to inch forward enough that they can get

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their guns through next summer.

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I would say it's still part of the same counteroffensive.

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Anyway, you listen a lot to Perun.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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So it sounds like John in the chat room also listens to or watches Perun.

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So, I read a bit of Moon over Alabama.

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Yeah, the comments in there were interesting.

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Yes, there's a lot of Crikey's in there, but there's some good stuff in there.

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A lot of Russian bots in there, yes.

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Yep, but you know, add references to the New York Times article, for example.

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There's things like that in there that are good.

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Yes, alright.

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Well, what can you, you know, wrapping up, as we're about to wrap

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up, dear listener, really, there's just no hope with Israel Palestine.

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It's an, just cannot be resolved without some...

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I don't think it can be resolved either.

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without some...

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Ugly, massive war of some sort.

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And in the, and in the follow up to that, there's some new demarcation,

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but it will take something quite.

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Extraordinary, and this will be a by product of something

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else that's extraordinary.

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Just can't see it happening in isolation on its own.

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I honestly think the best outcome is UN peacekeepers enforcing a demilitarized

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zone and making sure that the two warring sides can't get to each other.

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Yeah.

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But there's so many pockets of different settlements in that

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West Bank that it's, it's...

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And again, I think you have to, and the fact that there's actually three

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enclaves, because there's the Golan Heights as well but the Israelis are

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not going to give up the Golan Heights because that's where Syria started

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shelling during the 1967 war, yeah.

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What a mess.

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We are so lucky here to be out of all that.

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Right, dear listener.

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That'll do us.

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Joe, are you around next week?

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When do you go?

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Oh, I fly out on Thursday.

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Right.

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Not sure where you'll be or what your situation will be.

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Oh, well, the first couple of weeks I am in Devon.

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I'm hoping that I'm going to have internet there.

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Hmm.

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And it starts at 9.

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30 in the morning UK time.

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Hmm.

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Currently 9.

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30 in the morning?

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No, it's actually 10.

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30.

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Because they've still got daylight savings until the end of October.

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Right.

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Well, you'll come back in the next episode as our European correspondent,

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rather than Joe the tech guy.

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So, a new role for you.

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You'll be our ear on the ground for all things...

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For all things UK.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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Well, , dear listener, We'll talk to you then.

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Bye for now.

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And it's a good night from me.

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And it's a good night from him.

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Oh, hello there.

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I'm Left Wing.

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You can probably tell from the cultural Marxism coming out of my face.

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But let's not waste too much time pointing out that these pantomime villains are bad.

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The more interesting question is, who is to blame for making neo Nazis

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look like the new rock'n'roll punk?

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And the answer is unfortunately, partly, us.

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Don't get me wrong, I love Left Wing values and hope that one day

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they'll win out across the globe.

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It's just that, on that day, I don't want any actual left wing

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people to be alive to see it happen.

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Why?

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Because we're fucking useless.

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I mean, first of all, Brexit.

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What the fuck happened there?

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Well, the left employed a cunning two prong strategy by, one, calling every

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Leave voter a racist, and, two failing to put forward a positive case for Remain.

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Right.

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Weird how not engaging 17 million Brits and slacking them off instead didn't win

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them over, but at least yelling RACIST online made us feel good about ourselves

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and had no bad long lasting side effects.

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The UK has voted to leave the European Union.

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Ah, shit.

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Well, don't worry, after Brexit we learnt our lesson.

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And then the US election came along, we thought, nah, let's just do that again.

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You could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call

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the basket of deplorables.

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Not surprisingly, the left's campaign of, vote for us you pieces

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of shit, didn't pan out so well.

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Ah, I don't know what I said, ah!

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But don't worry, it's not just the big battles.

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The left are totally useless on a small scale as well.

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This is largely thanks to the foul brick of nightmares we all have sewn into our

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hands, which means we're also bleeding woke all the time, that we find something

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new to be offended by every few seconds.

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To find out more about why this new outraged left is losing ground,

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I sat down with moral philosopher and future doxing victim, Dr.

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Tim Dean.

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It's the case these days that a lot of people on the left

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see any kind of criticism.

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of their methods as a criticism of their goals.

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And that makes the kind of discourse and the dialogue that we're having really

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aggressive and quite corrosive as well.

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So why didn't calling Trump supporters racist and sexist help

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the Democrats win the election?

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I think that if you call a bunch of people sexist or racist, but they

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don't believe that they are sexist or racist all it's gonna do...

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is get them to rally around their own tribe and gather together and fight

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back, and that's exactly what we saw.

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I mean, how would you feel if I said you're entrenched in white privilege?

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I was gonna raise that, actually, cause we are two, two white men.

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Traditionally, the left were in favor of things like, you know, world peace,

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equality for all, lots of lovely things.

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How is it the left is taking that sort of utopia and packaging it in a way that

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makes me want to swallow my own face?

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The way some people on the left have been thinking has changed.

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They're looking for any kind of signal that underneath...

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You're actually a write off.

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And so, one slip of language, one slip of behavior, and that shows

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that you're in the bad camp, and you're just suddenly excluded.

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So the left lack nuance, they're too reactive to criticism

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and morally puritanical.

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Anything else?

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Well, why don't we talk about identity politics?

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Yeah!

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Let's talk about that.

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The goals are absolutely noble, but one of the problems of identity politics is

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it breaks off these groups into these silos, into these kind of knowledge

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silos, and it stifles the possibility of engagement between those kinds of silos.

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So Tim, I want the left to win, you've got a beard, you obviously

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want the left to win as well.

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What can we do to stop losing the big battles and start generating

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some genuine systemic change?

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We've got to move beyond words, we've got to get practical.

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We can join a political party, even better, start a new political party.

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Basically, just stop being some outraged, virtue signalling prats.

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