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Episode 403 - Gaza
10th October 2023 • The Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove • The Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove
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We discuss feedback about The Voice episode and the Israel-Palestine conflict in this episode.

To financially support the Podcast you can make:

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We have a website. www.ironfistvelvetglove.com.au

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You can send us a voicemail message at Speakpipe

Transcripts started in episode 324. You can use this link to search our transcripts. Type "iron fist velvet glove" into the search directory, click on our podcast and then do a word search. It even has a player which will play the relevant section. It is incredibly quick.

Transcripts

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Suburban Eastern Australia, an environment that has, over time,

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evolved some extraordinarily unique groups of homo sapiens.

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Despite the reputation of their homeland, some are remarkably thin

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skinned, some seem to have multiple lifespans, a few were once thought

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to be extinct in the region.

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Others have been observed being sacrificed by their own, but today we observe a

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small tribe akin to a group of meerkats that gather together atop a small mound

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to watch, question, and discuss the current events of their city, their

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country, and their world at large.

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Let's listen keenly and observe this group fondly known as the

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Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove.

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Hello and welcome dear listener.

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Episode 403, Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove podcast.

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I'm Trevor, aka the Iron Fist.

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Also known as the racist Iron Fist, but we'll get onto that later.

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With me as always.

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Scott the Velvet Glove.

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How are you, Scott?

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Not too bad, thanks, Trevor.

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And yourself?

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I've got my microphone this week.

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Yes, good to see.

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You actually had it the other week.

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It was in a box somewhere in your house.

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It was in a box somewhere in my house, yeah.

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And Joe, Joe the Tech Guy's with us.

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Evening all.

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Yeah, so if you're in the chat room, say hello.

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Or one of them.

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Yes, the one person in the chat room.

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Say hello.

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Who are you in there?

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Keen to know.

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Yeah.

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Well, what are we going to talk about in this episode?

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A little bit of a feedback from my voice episode.

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And then of course, we've got to talk about Israel, Palestine, Gaza, Strip,

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and everything that's going on there.

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Solve the problems of the Middle East in half an hour.

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That's what podcasters do.

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So we'll have a go at that.

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Don's in the chat room, Chris is in the chat room.

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Good on you guys.

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Thanks for...

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Joining us.

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Right.

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So yeah, last week was my recorded episode on The Voice.

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Had a lovely time in North Queensland, a tropical island, getting away from it all.

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And got some feedback afterwards.

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Some good and some bad.

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So, Jimmy sent a lovely message, which was, Hi Trevor, just wanted to shoot

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you a quick message after listening to your podcast about The Voice.

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I just want to congratulate you and your commend you for a well reasoned and

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thoughtful opinion which is contrary to the popular opinions amongst my friends.

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In fact, it was extremely brave.

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I will still be voting yes, but I can't say that there was anything

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you said that I disagreed with.

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Very well done.

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Thanks.

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Fantastic feedback, Jimmy.

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Like, I don't expect to change people's minds, but that's a lovely comment.

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Thank you for that.

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Wotley he sends me voice messages.

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An interesting thing about Wotley is he's still thinking about it.

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He's still not sure what he's doing, but he's humming and ah ing and over the

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place, so some nice feedback from Wotley.

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Roman sent me an email and had a few things that she wanted to sort of,

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pick up with me where she differed she did just mention generally

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moving away from her critique of the podcast, but just generally that she's

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disappointed the way the voice debate has been going on, on both sides.

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Gentlemen, your observations of the debate in general that you've

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seen online, on Facebook, Twitter.

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In other places, anything about the debate struck you?

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I think the Yes camp left their run too late.

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You know, it's one of those things like, it's all very well for Albanese to be

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puffing his chest out saying that we've had some good results in the last month.

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Yeah, but that was probably three months too late.

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Had they started three months ago, had they been doing what they've

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been doing in this last month, then you probably would be looking at a

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more competitive position for Yes.

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But I think it's probably too late for them.

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So what have they been doing lately that they weren't doing before?

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I don't know.

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I don't watch a whole lot of news.

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I only read what's in the, I only read what's online and that type of thing, so.

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Right.

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You know, it's well, Albanese was up here in Queensland spruiking

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it and all that sort of thing.

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I don't know why he's bothering, because I think that's a lost state to them.

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Mm.

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You know, I would have thought that he's probably better off, you know,

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what's the current liberal that's the centre, the moderate in Tasmania?

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What's her name?

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Bridget Archer?

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Bridget Archer.

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Yeah.

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I think to myself that, you know, if Albanese wants to actually have

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a success, he should be down there because apparently Tasmania looks

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like they're going to vote yes.

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And that's because Archer has been crisscrossing the whole state saying,

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you've got to get out and vote yes.

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You know, and I don't know about New South Wales and Victoria.

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I think Victoria's looking at going, yes.

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New South Wales is potentially gonna go No, but they're just

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not sure the two that they can write off of Queensland and wa Mm.

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Yeah.

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Joe, the debate in general, any thoughts?

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I have seen the usual because of course my local potato mm-hmm.

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Is he, he sent out some brochure.

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Which was, oh, it's all indecisive, there's no real meat to it, vote

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no because we can't be sure.

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Mm.

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Which I have to say is a fairly shit argument.

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Mm.

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It's an appalling argument because, you know, he might as well be attacking

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the entire Constitution because the Constitution doesn't actually

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say, you know, they make up the courts and all that sort of stuff.

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It says you've got to have courts.

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Mm.

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So you've got the courts, but you've just got to make them up.

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So, but, but aside from that, and there was a few Facebook

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ads, I really don't do Twitter.

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But in terms of the media, I've seen a lot of coverage, which has mostly been

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aiming on the left, on the yes side.

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There was some balanced stuff from the ABC, which was we interviewed a

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bunch of people, pro and con and then there was probably the conversation,

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there was something debunking the UN land grab and talking about

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some former soap star, apparently, who's got deep into the conspiracy

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weeds, so there's the United States.

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Nations, something on indigenous persons.

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There's a statement on indigenous people that DUN has brought out and

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I don't know exactly what it says.

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And apparently if you, oh, so there's a lot in there about reparations

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and land rights and negotiating with a, an Indigenous council

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that is nationwide to come in for mining rights and things like that.

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Right.

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So it's a sort of a conspiracy argument that if the voices pass, then these

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UN resolutions will have effect.

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Basically.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Yep.

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Yep.

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So, I don't know.

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I don't participate on Twitter.

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I just look at stuff, trying to find interesting topics for this podcast.

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So there's a lot of left leaning people in life.

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Followed over time.

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I'll tell you what, I think they're really falling into the basket of

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deplorables argument a lot of the time.

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Where it's just exasperation by a lot of people on the left when they

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say we're losing this referendum.

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Goddamn racists who are out there voting, no, and...

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Really, just essentially saying if anyone is voting no, they must be a racist,

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they're deplorable people and isn't it terrible that we've got this situation

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and you couldn't possibly be voting no for reasons that were not racist.

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Brexit was the same, and I think Trump was the same.

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Yeah, so I think there's a lot of that going on.

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So yeah, the standard of...

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I don't think there's any doubt about it at all.

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It's something we said right from when it was first mooted.

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I thought to myself, well, this is just going to be another...

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This is going to be a way that the, that the yes voters are going to have

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to say, well, look at these bunch of racists and that type of thing.

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And I said right from word go that this was going to be a divisive bloody campaign

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that would not be, would not show us well at all in the light of the whole country.

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It would make us all look like a pack of lunatics.

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I don't think the rest of the world's going to care.

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So two months afterwards.

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I just, I think you're probably right there.

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I just think to myself that It sounds like a pretty good argument right

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now, that you've got to actually worry about what the rest of the world's

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going to say, but I think you're right, that in two or three months

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time, no one's going to give a toss.

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And Australia has an international reputation of

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being a bunch of racists anyway.

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Oh, absolutely we do, yeah.

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Yeah, so, not to slot in with the perception of Australia anyway.

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Well, exactly.

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So, I don't know.

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The debate itself...

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I still haven't seen anything that's been impressive in the debating that

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deals with the topics and the issues.

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It's very tribal sort of thinking in just buy in statements without

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getting into the nitty gritty.

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That I like to think I got into in my spiel.

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People may disagree, but you know, it's hard enough with well meaning

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people to get your ideas across.

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So, I mentioned Bronwyn has emailed me with some sort of

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issues she wants to take up.

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And the first issue that she mentioned, I really don't think I said it at all.

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And so I've really just gone back to her and said, look on this first one,

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tell me exactly what you think I've said, because I don't think I said that.

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At all.

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And, you know, I'll wait for Bronwyn to come back to me.

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But and even Paul from Canberra back in August tried to sort of state

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what he thought my position was.

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And his sort of one sentence statement of what he thought

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it was was completely wrong.

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It was not my position at all.

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And so when well meaning people who were listening and trying to, I guess,

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understand your position I think get it wrong then what do you do when people who

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are not so well meaning want to, you know, hear you and immediately want to sort

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of think the worst of you and start...

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Almost intentionally misinterpreting what you're saying and seeing

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the worst in what you say.

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So I know Broman and Paul would be looking at it, trying to think in

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the best light, but there are people out there who just want to, you know,

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take So what you're saying is mm-hmm.

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. Yeah.

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Do you not remember that interview?

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No?

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What was that interview?

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Oh Channel 4 probably five years ago, Jordan Peterson.

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Ah, okay.

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Who I have no time for.

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Yes.

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But she was continually strawmanning everything that he said.

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Yes.

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And she'd be saying, so what you're saying is, gives a strawman

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explanation, and he'd say, no, that's not what I'm saying at all.

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Yes.

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And she'd not listen to his answer and then strawman him on the next question.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, now she was intentionally not well meaning.

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She was trying to set him up and trying to push an agenda she had.

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Yeah, yeah, I mean, I don't know that she was doing it deliberately, but

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certainly she wasn't listening to him.

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Yes, yeah, so, so yeah, and then on Twitter there was this There's a Twitter

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person, ex skeptic, is voting yes.

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If you're interested, go on Twitter and have a look at the, the sort

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of things that this person was saying, and I'm just looking at it

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going, what are you talking about?

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You just haven't been listening to what I've been saying.

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You're just talking nonsense.

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So, I can't be, I don't enter into social media debates and it's just not

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the forum to, if people are well meaning and nice and they contact me by email,

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then I'll respond that way, but I just don't just don't get into online debates,

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but, yeah, very difficult to have...

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But people don't want to have a long form conversation.

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Well, not, that's, that's...

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Possibly too broad, but lots of people don't want to have

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a long form conversation.

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Hmm.

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Because that requires effort, they just want 140 characters,

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that's it, I've said my piece.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, the rant.

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So, so anyway, that's the position at the moment on The Voice.

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Bronwyn suggested afterwards maybe just do a little bit on the debate

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post the decision and what it means to Australia and the sort of...

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Republican party style tactics that were used by Dutton and Co.

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Maybe we'll get to that.

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It's one of those things.

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I think that on, I think that on Sunday morning, once we know the

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result you know, we'll just move on.

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You know, it, it comes down to whether or not Albanese wishes to legislate a voice.

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He said he won't.

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I know, he said he won't.

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It's one of those things, it's I was having a chat to a Torres Strait Island

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gentleman this morning when I was out for a walk, and he was actually very

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positive around ethic, and I said that I had listened to something around that on

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7am, and The Attic decision by the Howard government was wrong, because rather than

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just tinker with it and modernize it and take it down from the top, they abolished

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the whole bloody thing, you know, which was, which was wrong, and they didn't

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replace it with anything, which again was wrong, so that is why I'm with you.

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That's why I favour the voice, that we're getting a vote on it for our

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constitution now because it would make it a hell of a lot harder for a future Tory

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government to come in and just destroy it.

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Anyway, that's enough of a rehash of the voice and I went to vote

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yesterday and I was surprised by the number of people who pulled into

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the place before me and after me.

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There was a steady stream of people who were early voting.

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Right.

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So that was on a Monday?

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Hmm.

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So, I mean, obviously, I'm going to be overseas, but be surprised

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that that number of people had a reason not to vote on Saturday.

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Hmm.

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It's one of those things they're asking, they're asking up here, they're just

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saying to people when they arrive, do you have a reason, you've got a reason

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that you can't make it in on Saturday?

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And he says, oh, yeah, I do.

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And they didn't ask what it was.

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They just said, yeah.

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I mean, I told them that I was travelling and therefore wouldn't

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be there, but all they said was...

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Do you have a valid reason for early voting?

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Yes.

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Go ahead.

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Oh, okay.

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I hadn't thought of that.

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That's exactly what they're doing up here too.

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Right.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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I need to have a line ready for that.

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It's one of those things.

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I'm just going to go in on Saturday.

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Now, enough on the voice.

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Shall we move on to...

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Israel, Palestine.

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So yes, over the weekend, we had that incident where Palestinians broke out of

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the Gaza area into, across the demarcation line and rockets were fired, people were

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killed by gunfire as well, and hostages were taken back into the Gaza, and the

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world is in shock and you've all no doubt read bits and pieces about it.

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And really, the thing that strikes me about this is that sort of Jewish

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suffering in Nazi concentration camps, you know, generated enormous

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sympathy for Jewish people, rightly so.

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And we've come around to the point now where, where Israel is really

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conducting In the Gaza, some sort of modern day Warsaw Ghetto, for

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various reasons that we'll get into.

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A ghetto, possibly.

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Your previous, your show notes say concentration camp, which I would

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disagree with, and they are not.

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Not doing the wholesale industrial slaughter that the Nazis did.

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Hmm.

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I like the Warsaw Ghetto one, so I threw that in.

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The Ghetto is probably more close to what's happening.

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Yeah.

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Particularly with the Ghetto in that it was a sealed, contained area that

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people couldn't move in and out of.

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But there is a difference, the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto hadn't

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said that they wanted to wipe the Nazis off the face of the earth.

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Yes, so let's get into, let's just a little bit more of the scene, and

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then, so on the one hand, you've got people particularly sympathetic to

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the Jewish Israeli side who say, this is terrible and an outrage, and...

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And, who have been completely silent to all of the Palestinian deaths

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over the last decades, but who are now outraged by the Israeli deaths.

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And then on the other hand, you've got people who are saying, well, what did

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you expect if you set up a situation like this where these people have no hope?

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And why have you, you know, why are you suddenly now concerned about

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Israeli deaths when there's been all these Palestinian deaths and

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a sort of a pro Palestinian side?

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And, and, well, Joe, add your flavour of opinion to that mix.

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Well, so, the, the whole Jewish homeland had been an issue for a long time.

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Yeah, late 19th century.

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They were talking about the pogroms that had historically happened,

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and they said we cannot trust a government to look after our rights.

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We can't trust a government to protect us from other citizens.

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We need a Jewish home.

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The problem comes from this idea that...

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The Levant was granted to them by God that it is their divine birthright

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to live in that bit of land.

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But unfortunately, Jerusalem is considered the holy land for three major religions.

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All of the Abrahamic religions.

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They all want to have control of it.

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Mm-hmm.

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, I, I know that originally there was talk of them going to Madagascar.

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There was talk at one stage of selling off a large part of wa.

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I, I think had the Jews moved to Northern wa that would probably have been good

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for Australia and good for the Jews,

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possibly not for the Aboriginals.

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But no, I don't think the Reinhardts would've agreed with that.

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But, you know, you can, well, maybe not, but.

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I just think to myself, had they taken the North West of Western Australia, then

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you could carve that into two states.

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You could call one of them Israel, the other one WA.

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Yeah, you know, you could have had a, you could have had a you

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could have had another state in the Commonwealth that could have had 12

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Senators and all that sort of thing.

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Their, their native language would have been Hebrew and that type of thing.

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So you'd end up with, you'd end up with a bilingual nation down here,

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you'd have English and Hebrew.

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So, you know.

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Sliding doors, hmm.

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Yeah, I know, and it would have, you know, I honestly believe that in

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1947 a terrible mistake was made, a terrible, terrible mistake was made.

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You know, they were trying to recreate something that hadn't

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existed for 2, 000 years.

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If it ever existed.

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If it ever existed, you know.

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Let's take their, let's take their, their explanation of history as being reality.

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That it was, it was the Jewish homeland and all that sort of stuff

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before the Romans kicked them out.

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So let's take that as realistic.

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Then, what they were trying to do was recreate something that

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hadn't existed for 2, 000 years.

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And that was absolutely crazy that they thought they could do that.

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You know, and I agree with, I agree with the whole point that Trevor raised

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saying that the barbaric manner in which the Jews were treated by the Nazis meant

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that, you know, rightly so, there was a hell of a lot of sympathy for them.

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You know, I agreed wholeheartedly with that sympathy, however, you know,

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the sympathy is being edged away.

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Little by little, every year, when you see them react so blatantly

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horrible towards the Palestinians.

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And, you know, it's one of those things, I've got an old friend of mine up in

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Toowoomba who said that what they ought to do is they would put a sign facing

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out from the Palestinian border and that sort of stuff saying, Arbeit Macht Frei,

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which is Work Will Set You Free, you know, which was the Nazi concentration camp.

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Logo that they had on the wall,

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it's one of those things,

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I'm sorry.

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Are you back with us, Scott?

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I think he pulled the cable out.

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I think he did.

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No, he's back now.

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I am back, yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's one of those things, I just think that a terrible, terrible mistake was

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made in 1947, and we've now got to deal with it right now, and I think the only

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sensible solution is a two state solution.

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But if part of that, well, what is it, around about 50 percent of the

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Palestinians are represented by Hamas, which is completely opposed

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to Israel even existing, then I just don't think you're going to

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be gaining too much transportation.

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Palestine should be an Islamic state.

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Yeah, I know that, and that's even worse.

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You know, because there's, there'd be no chance of it being secular at all.

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No, they want a Western, a Western Iran, as in an Iran to

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the west of the current West Iran.

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Yeah, I know.

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Yeah.

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And the problem is that the West Bank is just dotted with all of these

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settlements that are, some of them Palestinian, some of them Jewish.

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With these corridors, you know, connecting them, very hard to do a

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proper borderline now in that area.

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It'd be virtually impossible.

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It's a mess.

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It's a right mess.

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And who predicted the mess in the first place, Scott?

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Albert Einstein.

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Oh, did he?

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Who wrote, who wrote in the beginning this is shortly after 1947, I think

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So, let me just see what he wrote here.

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Dear Sir, when a real and final catastrophe should befall us in

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Palestine, the first responsible for it would be the British and the second

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responsible for it, the terrorist organisations built up from our own ranks.

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I'm not willing to see anybody associated with those misled and criminal people.

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So, he, he saw terrorism coming from within Jewish ranks because of...

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The nature of what was being set up.

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But interestingly, the terrorism was the Jews against the British.

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And it was the Americans who funded the Jewish landing.

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They provide the arms and the equipment.

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So...

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Yeah, I mean, you go back to 1917 with the Balfour Declaration which

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was the British talking to the Jews and saying yes, you can set up a

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Jewish homeland inside Palestine.

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Yeah, but I think the British were making those sorts of

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guarantees to everyone at the time.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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They were trying to, they were trying to undo the Ottoman Empire.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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You know, so they were making promises to the Palestinians,

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they were making promises to the Jews, and on the other side...

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They were the French.

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Yeah, I know.

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It was one of those, it's a hell of a mess.

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Mmm.

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How messy has it been in recent times?

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Bernard Keane was writing in Crikey, just talking about the number of

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deaths on the Palestinian side.

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So, in 2022, there was 117...

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172 Palestinians murdered.

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This is from...

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The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, so this

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isn't sort of Israeli or Palestinian figures, but sort of UN figures 80

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Palestinians killed in 2021 in the past decade, 3, 081 Palestinian

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civilians killed, 132, 000 injured.

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They just want to grab the lands, though.

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Yes.

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The Palestinians.

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No, no, the United Nations.

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Yes, thanks Joe.

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Just like they're trying with the Aboriginals over here.

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Yes, that's nasty UN.

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What else have we got here?

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Ah, so that was that.

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There's all sorts of statistics available about the poor treatment of the

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Palestinians at the hands of the Israelis.

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As you rightly point out, Joe, there's an existential risk from the

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Palestinians towards the Israelis.

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Well, not just the Palestinians.

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All of the Arab states have tried a number of times to wipe Israel off the map.

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And they've always got a bloody nose out of it.

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They have, but that doesn't mean that they don't want to and that they

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wouldn't, given half a chance, try again.

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Yeah, I know that.

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It's probably the, nuclear, the fact that the Israelis have a nuclear bomb that

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has stopped it happening again in the last, whatever it is, 40 years, 50 years.

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Mm.

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67 was the last time it happened, that was the Yom Kippur War, wasn't it?

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I thought they said 50, 50 years and a day since the last one.

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So that was 72.

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Okay.

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73.

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Okay, gotcha.

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It's interesting, just the sort of, the propaganda and the framing

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and how media pushes certain lines and people push their own angles

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and how subtly this can be done.

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So Alan McLeod in a tweet pointed out reporting by BBC News and World

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News, and so, the BBC reported.

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More than 700 people have been killed in Israel since Hamas

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launched its attacks on Saturday.

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And at the same time, they wrote, more than 500 people have died

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in Gaza after Israel launched massive retaliatory airstrikes,

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according to Gaza's health ministry.

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So on the one hand, it's saying 700 killed in Israel, 500 in Gaza,

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but there's subtle things here.

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It said 700 people have been killed in Israel, where it said

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500 people have died in Gaza.

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And the one in relation to Gaza also finished with, according to Gaza's health

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ministry, which casts doubt on whether you want to believe their figures or not.

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So there's just a framing there that instead of saying 500 were

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killed in Gaza, it's just have died.

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And these are sort of subtle framings of things that can make a difference

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in your perception of which side you're going to favour, if any, in these things.

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So I thought that was interesting.

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Albanese our Prime Minister, has come out.

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Clearly on Israel's side in this.

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It's interesting that UK Labor last year, two years ago, had a

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big spat between the pro Israeli and the pro Palestine factions.

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Yep.

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With their accusations of anti Semitism.

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So, and I'm fairly sure Corbyn, because he was pro Palestine, that

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was one of the reasons he was toppled.

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Yes, for sure.

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In the John Menendee blog, there's a guy, Paul Hayward Smith, an Adelaide

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Kings Council of some 20 years.

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He was the initial chairperson of the Australian Friends of Palestine

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Association, and he's authored a book, The Case for Palestine.

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He was writing in the John Menendee blog, saying that there's a pressing need

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for Australians to assess the situation from an informed and balanced position.

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Australians must understand that what they are seeing is the response of

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a people pushed beyond endurance.

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And essentially there's been a blockade in the Gaza for 16 years.

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Nothing goes in or out without Israel, Israeli approval.

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And now what did he say here is Australia's failure to act has

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contributed to the current quagmire.

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Had the ALP on gaining office in 2022 done what its rank and file had called for

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at, at a preceding national conference, Namely, to recognise Palestine, who

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knows what might have followed, and he argues that some other countries might

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have followed, recognising Palestine, if Australia had, and maybe that would

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have been enough to keep them happy, I don't know about that, but in any event.

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I don't think it would have kept Hamas from launching the attack.

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Correct, and because we've already finished saying not so long ago that

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nobody cares what Australia thinks or does about anything anyway.

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But, that was interesting that ALP conference had called for recognising

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Palestine, wasn't aware of that, but ALP leadership doesn't follow that line.

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I thought the vast majority of countries have recognised Palestine.

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Hmm, probably not the sort of main Western countries, would that be right?

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Yeah.

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I don't think so.

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Hmm.

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So yeah of course, Richard Marles, our Defence Minister, said the

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unprovoked attacks from militant Hamas on Israel are abhorrent.

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There is no justification for these brutal attacks on Israel.

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Australia calls for these attacks to end and recognise

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Israel's right to defend itself.

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So you know about The U.

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S., I mean, A, there's a large Jewish vote in the U.

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S., which is why the U.

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S.

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very, very heavily supports Israel.

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But the evangelicals believe that the second coming of Christ is going to be

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kicked off by a war of the Middle East.

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So, a lot of evangelicals are deliberately trying to foment war in

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the Middle East because they believe it heralds the second coming of Christ.

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Yes, and a lot of weapons manufacturers are quite happy

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to see trouble there as well.

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So yeah, so that was Richard Marles.

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Meanwhile, the Greens, Jenny Leong from the Greens.

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She was complaining on Twitter because...

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Albanese had said that the pro Palestine protest should not go ahead, and...

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Bernard Keane had commented, what next, a ban on criticising Israel?

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And this Jenny Leong, the MP, Greens MP said but apparently lighting

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up the Australian Parliament and Sydney Opera House in support of

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those bombing Palestinian people in Gaza into oblivion is legit.

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Disgraceful to see political leaders fail to recognise the complexity and reality of

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this human rights and humanitarian crisis.

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So, what do you think, Scott or Joe, should the Australian Parliament

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or the Sydney Opera House be lit up in Israeli colours or flags to show

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support, or should we stay neutral on

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the opposition?

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I'm not entirely sure about that.

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It's one of those things, I, I can understand the government wanting to

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light the place up blue and white just to say that, you know, we're on the

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Israel side and that type of thing.

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Because this does appear to have...

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Should we be on Israel's side in this to recognize, I think we've got

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to recognize a Palestinian state.

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And, you know, we've got to actually sit down with Fatah and that sort of

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stuff and actually negotiate with them.

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I don't think we should be talking to Hamas.

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But I do believe that we should be talking to Fatah and that sort of stuff to try

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and get something knotted out with them.

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And I think that if the, I think if the rest of the Western world would

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go along with that and saying, look, we're going to negotiate with Fatah,

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we're not going to negotiate with Hamas, then eventually Hamas will end

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up withering on the vine and dying.

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Unfortunately Hamas is supported by the people in in the Gaza Strip.

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In the Gaza Strip.

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Yeah, I know that.

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And that's why...

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The blockade is because Hamas was rocketing Israeli settlements, and

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so it was to stop weapons being brought in, particularly from Egypt.

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There was a huge problem with missiles and rockets coming in from Egypt.

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I really don't know how you solve it.

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There is no solution, but there is no solution.

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You, you, you've got to actually, you've got to bang their two heads together

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because you know, they're, you know, they're both, that's what they're doing.

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Yeah, I know, but you've got to actually, you know, you've got to actually bang

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their heads together because, you know, you're one, one's the tribe of Abraham.

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The other one's the tribe of Abraham and they were both brothers, you know, it's.

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Family fights are the worst.

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Yeah, I know, but this is the whole point.

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The world is being dragged into this whole bloody family feud, which is ridiculous.

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Just getting back to this provoked and unprovoked.

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So Richard Miles said the unprovoked attacks from militant

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Hamas on Israel are abhorrent.

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And Caitlin Johnston in an article quotes a whole bunch of people who

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like the White House, for example, said the United States unequivocally

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condemns the unprovoked attacks.

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And House Speaker Jim Jordan said, The unprovoked terror attack today.

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And Robert F.

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Kennedy Jr.

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said, The ignominious, unprovoked, and barbaric attack.

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And she goes on and on with people saying unprovoked.

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Like, Joe, even somebody with a fairly hard ish position like yours on the danger

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of Palestinians having access to weapons, etc., etc., You couldn't claim it was an

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unprovoked attack, like you'd say, Oh, and plenty of provocation to do what they did.

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Would you say it was unprovoked?

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You'd be happy to say, yeah, it was provoked, but it's all in context.

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I was going to say it's provoked on both sides, but at the end of the day, don't

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think the Jewish people should be there.

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It wasn't like it was an empty piece of...

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ground that they bought.

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They claimed it by divine right and invaded.

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Yeah.

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And you know, it's bloody crooked what they actually did.

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You know, they, they shot the poor bastards up that

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couldn't get away on time.

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And it was really criminal the way they actually took over the place.

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Yeah.

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But you can have a pretty dim view of palace of Palestinians

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and Hamas and, and yet.

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You really can't go to the point of saying it was unprovoked.

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There was plenty of provocation there.

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It's just a function of, of what the situation's been in.

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So, but yeah, people are running around saying it was an unprovoked attack.

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Yeah, I know that, but you know, it's just one of those things, I've

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said it before and I'll say it again.

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You know, do you honestly believe if the PLO were as well armed as the IDF, that

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they would show the same sort of restraint that the IDF has shown, or would they

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drive the Jews into the Mediterranean?

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I think the latter would be more, would be more likely.

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Couldn't argue against you.

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Couldn't argue against you.

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So, it's just a mess.

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It's a mess from its inception, and there is no solution.

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It was an absolute travesty that they actually did it.

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Right, what else can we say about it?

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A bit of Caitlin Johnston.

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Nobody can tell me what the Palestinians should do instead that

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is both realistic and reasonable.

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It would be easy for me to sit here in my armchair and say the Palestinians

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should either maintain the status quo or lie down, relinquish their homes

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and homeland and accept whatever table scraps they're able to get, but

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we can see it from the Palestinian perspective that that's not reasonable.

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It would be easy for me to sit in my armchair and argue that Palestinians

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should just focus on securing A one state or two state solution, but we

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can see from the Israeli political landscape that that's not realistic.

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So what else can they do?

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What reasonable and realistic options do they have?

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No one can provide me with a satisfactory answer.

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Ultimately, this is just Palestinians doing what they feel they need

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to do out of total desperation.

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Because they feel backed into a corner with no other options.

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And they feel backed into a corner with no other options because that

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does not appear to be the case.

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But Fatar seem to have reached a better settlement, a better agreement.

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So it's not the Palestinians, it's Hamas.

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So Fatah being in the West Bank.

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West Bank, yeah.

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It's one of those things, I just think to myself that I can understand where

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she's coming from, but by the same token, what's this going to get them?

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All it's going to do is, all it's going to do is result in Israel taking

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out a very heavy hammer and they're going to smash it down hard on the,

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on the people that are in Gaza.

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So let's talk about West Bank then, Joe.

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Should the people in, the Palestinians in the West Bank just accept what

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they've got and Israel should come to some two state solution with the, with

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the Palestinians in the West Bank?

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That's what was being negotiated.

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No, I think Israel...

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From what I understand, the new settlers are coming in and

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building willy nilly as well.

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Hmm.

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It doesn't seem the current Israeli government is up for a two state solution.

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No, they're not.

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Even in the West Bank.

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Well, let's just ignore the Gaza for the moment, but...

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Whether you stick UN peacekeepers in as has happened in a number of states...

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Yeah, but see, you're going to have to have the UN there permanently, aren't you?

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Yes, absolutely.

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There are so many pocketed little settlements intermixed amongst each other.

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You'd need an enormous force if you were to repartition.

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Yes.

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It's one of those things, I think that, I think the Jews are going to have to

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abandon their whole settlements and that sort of stuff, but rather than

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actually bulldozing them like they did the last time they abandoned them,

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they ought to actually pack up and then leave, and leave behind the homes and

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everything that were built there for the Palestinians to actually inhabit.

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Right.

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Do you Israelis should, should retreat back out of the settlements

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and they should leave the settlement buildings and that sort of stuff

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behind with keys and everything for the Palestinians to take them up.

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Yeah, that's just never going to happen, isn't it?

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I know, because, you know, the last time they did that, which was after the...

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government told them to, they wouldn't do it.

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Yeah, I know, it's...

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The last time they actually retreated from a settlement and that sort of

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stuff, it was a ridiculous situation that they had a that they actually

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bulldozed the settlements and that sort of stuff, and then they

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withdrew, which was absolutely crazy.

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It was a real churlish thing that the Israelis did there.

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You know, where they said, well, you know, they basically raised their

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middle finger and said, well, fuck you, you're not having our buildings.

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You know, which was very churlish to do.

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Noisy Andrew.

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What would I do if my family had been forced into a

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ghetto for three generations?

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I don't know.

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I'm very lucky that I was born in Australia, so I

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don't know what I would do.

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Now, I can understand where you're coming from, because the Palestinians

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have been forced into this ghetto situation for three generations.

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Do I believe that they're actually going to get anywhere with their

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violence and that sort of stuff?

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No, I don't.

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Do I understand why they've actually taken to the streets and that

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type of thing, hurling Molotov cocktails at the, at the Jews?

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Absolutely, I do.

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I fully understand that.

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Do I support them?

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No, I don't.

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But, it's one of those things, I don't know what the answer is.

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You know, it's a terrible, terrible mistake that was made in

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1947.

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Yeah.

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What the Israeli defense minister said, he said, quote, I've ordered

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a complete siege on the Gaza Strip.

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There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel.

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Everything is closed.

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We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly.

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Terrible.

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I know, it's one of those things...

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It just, it creates the next generation of Hamas supporters is the problem.

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It does.

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You know, because...

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Even without religion, I was talking to my wife about this because we were just

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talking about religious differences, and I was like, even if you wiped out religious

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differences, there's so much bad blood now where just as a, you know, on each side,

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particularly the Palestinian side would be saying those goddamn people over there...

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We're responsible for killing my mother, my father, my uncle, my kids, whatever,

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just a whole range of family members.

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Very impossible to sort of get these people to come to this country.

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I had this growing up with Northern Ireland, which, you

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know, that was 400 years ago.

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That all started, and they, it's a very uneasy peace agreement

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I, I think the answer is, is, is breaking up the, the enclaves.

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It's forcing them to intermingle, it's forcing them to go to the same schools.

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Yeah, but, you know, that's that all sounds well and good, but it's

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just not going to happen because you've got people that are, you've

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got people that speak Arabic, you've got people that speak Hebrew.

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So what are they gonna do?

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Which language are they gonna settle on to educate their kids?

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Are they going to educate them in Hebrew or educate them in Arabic?

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You know, I can't imagine a Jewish family and that sort of stuff

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being particularly happy that their kids are being taught in Arabic.

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I think they're all bilingual, or lots of them are bilingual.

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Yeah, I know they, they're English and Arabic.

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English and Arabic.

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English and Arabic or English and Hebrew.

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So, you know, I suppose you could actually say, well, we're gonna

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teach everything in English.

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I think even the Israeli speak.

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Arabic.

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I'll do that.

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Okay.

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But it's just, I forget the language, just there wouldn't be the trust

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in the communities for each other.

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Yeah, what a, what a complete mess.

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On the...

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Oh yeah, you've got another one saying, you know, would you, would

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you believe that creation of Pakistan in 1947 was a terrible mistake?

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Yeah, yeah.

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Partition, absolutely.

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It was a terrible mistake.

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You know, it was the only thing that, it was the only thing that kept

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them from killing each other, but...

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It was a disaster, the way it happened.

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And I don't know that it did keep them from killing each

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other because there was...

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Oh, there were terrible border disputes and everything like that.

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But even during partition, as partition happened, there were

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horrible, horrible massacres.

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So, yeah, I think India should have remained a...

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A single country.

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A single country that was secular, that didn't have an

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Islamic side and a Hindu side.

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And now we've got the Sikhs as well who want their own homeland.

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Mm.

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It's one of those things, the old boy must be rolling in his

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grave because it's all he wanted.

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Which Gandhi?

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Oh, right.

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Well, all Gandhi, all Gandhi wanted was a, was a, was a secular.

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India was, well, I, I'd heard it was Nru who wanted the secular enduring

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Gandhi was a Hindu nationalist.

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I don't know about that.

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I thought, I thought it was the other way around.

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Yeah.

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I, I couldn't tell.

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I thought both of them wanted a secular country.

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Noisy Andrew says, we can't afford a cricket team that good.

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The best of India and Pakistan together.

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Still on the comedy line.

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It's one of those things, I just think to myself, if they could

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actually get their act together over cricket, then that would have

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actually solved a hell of the problems.

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Still on the comedy line, good news from Canada breaking news, Canadian

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lawmakers have announced that in solidarity with Israel, they won't honour

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Waffen SS veterans for one whole week.

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Do you remember that scene where the Canadian parliament stood up and gave a

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standing ovation to some Nazi SS veteran?

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Did you see that?

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I don't remember that.

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He was a Ukrainian.

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Yes.

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Who had fought against the Soviet Union during the Nazi occupation.

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Right.

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So he had joined the Waffen SS as a, basically as a foreign legion.

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Right.

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So he had fought, he'd joined a foreign legion of Germans to

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fight against the Soviets during the Soviet occupation of Ukraine.

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Right.

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And he had joined up as a 17 year old.

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Right.

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Did he deserve a standing ovation in Canadian Parliament, Joe?

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It's very difficult to say.

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If he'd been a Soviet soldier, should he have had a standing ovation?

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The Soviets were as brutal as the Germans.

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Right.

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In that case, probably not.

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Probably shouldn't be giving standing ovations to soldiers.

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I think there were no rights, there were no wrongs on that.

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It was a horrible...

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It was a terrible clusterfuck, I think.

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Mm.

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How's that Ukrainian counter offensive going?

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Are we finished with with Gaza?

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The Ukrainian counter offensive...

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Are you done and dusted with Gaza?

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I think so.

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Oh, is it?

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It is.

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Very, very slowly.

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Right.

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It's one of those things, they're going to have to pull up stumps on it

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before too long because the raining season's about to start, and then

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after that it's going to go to snow.

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So, I think that we'll have to wait until next year to find out

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where it's going to end up at all.

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Right.

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Well, so, the military analyst that I listen to has actually said, because

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these aren't large scale armoured.

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movements, actually, the minor things that are happening will carry

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on happening through the winter.

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Because it's a handful of troops.

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Basically, because the amount of artillery, you cannot amass

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a large armored formation to break through the lines.

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So it's, it's had to be piecemeal.

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You take a position, dig into that position, make yourself set up and

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then move to the next position.

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So it's, it's slowly inching forward.

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According to the New York Times, they put out a graph saying that since

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January 1, Ukraine has gained 143.

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square miles of territory.

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Yes.

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The only problem is that the Russians gained 331 square miles.

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Absolutely.

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Because the Ukrainians are attacking heavily defended lines and the

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Russians are effectively attacking Some Ukrainians in a field, so completely

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different levels of effort required.

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Yeah, and the point is the Ukrainians are trying to inch their artillery forward

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enough to break the land bridge to Crimea.

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And once they do that, effectively, the Crimean peninsula is isolated.

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The Russians regaining land really doesn't matter.

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It's, yeah, I mean, it's, it's fields.

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So it's important to Ukraine as there are foreign invaders on our soil.

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It's important to the villagers who are being terrorized by the Russian soldiers

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who appear to be badly disciplined underpaid and are taking it out on the

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villagers that they can get their hands on and looting the houses because they're

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not getting enough money from the army, so they're taking whatever they can.

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But in strategic terms, I don't think the landmass that the Russians

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are taking has any major impact.

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So anyway, with the counter offensive probably won't know to

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be continued next summer, almost.

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Oh, absolutely.

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So the Russian Minister of Defence has said the war has

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to last till 2025 at least.

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Right.

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So the Russians are in it for the long haul.

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The question is whether the Western Allies will keep up providing munitions and, and,

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if we're waiting now another till the next summer, can we really call it the same

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counter offensive, if that's the case?

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Who knows?

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Probably be another counter offensive, is what I thought.

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Okay.

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Anyway.

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It depends if they manage to inch forward enough that they can get

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their guns through next summer.

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I would say it's still part of the same counteroffensive.

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Anyway, you listen a lot to Perun.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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So it sounds like John in the chat room also listens to or watches Perun.

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So, I read a bit of Moon over Alabama.

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Yeah, the comments in there were interesting.

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Yes, there's a lot of Crikey's in there, but there's some good stuff in there.

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A lot of Russian bots in there, yes.

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Yep, but you know, add references to the New York Times article, for example.

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There's things like that in there that are good.

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Yes, alright.

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Well, what can you, you know, wrapping up, as we're about to wrap

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up, dear listener, really, there's just no hope with Israel Palestine.

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It's an, just cannot be resolved without some...

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I don't think it can be resolved either.

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without some...

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Ugly, massive war of some sort.

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And in the, and in the follow up to that, there's some new demarcation,

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but it will take something quite.

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Extraordinary, and this will be a by product of something

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else that's extraordinary.

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Just can't see it happening in isolation on its own.

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I honestly think the best outcome is UN peacekeepers enforcing a demilitarized

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zone and making sure that the two warring sides can't get to each other.

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Yeah.

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But there's so many pockets of different settlements in that

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West Bank that it's, it's...

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And again, I think you have to, and the fact that there's actually three

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enclaves, because there's the Golan Heights as well but the Israelis are

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not going to give up the Golan Heights because that's where Syria started

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shelling during the 1967 war, yeah.

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What a mess.

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We are so lucky here to be out of all that.

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Right, dear listener.

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That'll do us.

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Joe, are you around next week?

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When do you go?

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Oh, I fly out on Thursday.

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Right.

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Not sure where you'll be or what your situation will be.

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Oh, well, the first couple of weeks I am in Devon.

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I'm hoping that I'm going to have internet there.

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Hmm.

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And it starts at 9.

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30 in the morning UK time.

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Hmm.

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Currently 9.

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30 in the morning?

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No, it's actually 10.

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30.

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Because they've still got daylight savings until the end of October.

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Right.

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Well, you'll come back in the next episode as our European correspondent,

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rather than Joe the tech guy.

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So, a new role for you.

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You'll be our ear on the ground for all things...

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For all things UK.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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Well, , dear listener, We'll talk to you then.

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Bye for now.

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And it's a good night from me.

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And it's a good night from him.

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Oh, hello there.

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I'm Left Wing.

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You can probably tell from the cultural Marxism coming out of my face.

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But let's not waste too much time pointing out that these pantomime villains are bad.

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The more interesting question is, who is to blame for making neo Nazis

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look like the new rock'n'roll punk?

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And the answer is unfortunately, partly, us.

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Don't get me wrong, I love Left Wing values and hope that one day

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they'll win out across the globe.

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It's just that, on that day, I don't want any actual left wing

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people to be alive to see it happen.

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Why?

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Because we're fucking useless.

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I mean, first of all, Brexit.

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What the fuck happened there?

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Well, the left employed a cunning two prong strategy by, one, calling every

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Leave voter a racist, and, two failing to put forward a positive case for Remain.

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Right.

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Weird how not engaging 17 million Brits and slacking them off instead didn't win

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them over, but at least yelling RACIST online made us feel good about ourselves

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and had no bad long lasting side effects.

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The UK has voted to leave the European Union.

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Ah, shit.

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Well, don't worry, after Brexit we learnt our lesson.

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And then the US election came along, we thought, nah, let's just do that again.

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You could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call

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the basket of deplorables.

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Not surprisingly, the left's campaign of, vote for us you pieces

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of shit, didn't pan out so well.

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Ah, I don't know what I said, ah!

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But don't worry, it's not just the big battles.

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The left are totally useless on a small scale as well.

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This is largely thanks to the foul brick of nightmares we all have sewn into our

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hands, which means we're also bleeding woke all the time, that we find something

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new to be offended by every few seconds.

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To find out more about why this new outraged left is losing ground,

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I sat down with moral philosopher and future doxing victim, Dr.

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Tim Dean.

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It's the case these days that a lot of people on the left

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see any kind of criticism.

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of their methods as a criticism of their goals.

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And that makes the kind of discourse and the dialogue that we're having really

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aggressive and quite corrosive as well.

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So why didn't calling Trump supporters racist and sexist help

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the Democrats win the election?

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I think that if you call a bunch of people sexist or racist, but they

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don't believe that they are sexist or racist all it's gonna do...

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is get them to rally around their own tribe and gather together and fight

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back, and that's exactly what we saw.

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I mean, how would you feel if I said you're entrenched in white privilege?

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I was gonna raise that, actually, cause we are two, two white men.

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Traditionally, the left were in favor of things like, you know, world peace,

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equality for all, lots of lovely things.

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How is it the left is taking that sort of utopia and packaging it in a way that

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makes me want to swallow my own face?

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The way some people on the left have been thinking has changed.

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They're looking for any kind of signal that underneath...

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You're actually a write off.

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And so, one slip of language, one slip of behavior, and that shows

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that you're in the bad camp, and you're just suddenly excluded.

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So the left lack nuance, they're too reactive to criticism

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and morally puritanical.

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Anything else?

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Well, why don't we talk about identity politics?

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Yeah!

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Let's talk about that.

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The goals are absolutely noble, but one of the problems of identity politics is

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it breaks off these groups into these silos, into these kind of knowledge

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silos, and it stifles the possibility of engagement between those kinds of silos.

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So Tim, I want the left to win, you've got a beard, you obviously

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want the left to win as well.

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What can we do to stop losing the big battles and start generating

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some genuine systemic change?

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We've got to move beyond words, we've got to get practical.

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We can join a political party, even better, start a new political party.

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Basically, just stop being some outraged, virtue signalling prats.

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