Shownotes
We discuss feedback about The Voice episode and the Israel-Palestine conflict in this episode.
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Transcripts
Suburban Eastern Australia, an environment that has, over time,
Speaker:evolved some extraordinarily unique groups of homo sapiens.
Speaker:Despite the reputation of their homeland, some are remarkably thin
Speaker:skinned, some seem to have multiple lifespans, a few were once thought
Speaker:to be extinct in the region.
Speaker:Others have been observed being sacrificed by their own, but today we observe a
Speaker:small tribe akin to a group of meerkats that gather together atop a small mound
Speaker:to watch, question, and discuss the current events of their city, their
Speaker:country, and their world at large.
Speaker:Let's listen keenly and observe this group fondly known as the
Speaker:Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove.
Speaker:Hello and welcome dear listener.
Speaker:Episode 403, Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove podcast.
Speaker:I'm Trevor, aka the Iron Fist.
Speaker:Also known as the racist Iron Fist, but we'll get onto that later.
Speaker:With me as always.
Speaker:Scott the Velvet Glove.
Speaker:How are you, Scott?
Speaker:Not too bad, thanks, Trevor.
Speaker:And yourself?
Speaker:I've got my microphone this week.
Speaker:Yes, good to see.
Speaker:You actually had it the other week.
Speaker:It was in a box somewhere in your house.
Speaker:It was in a box somewhere in my house, yeah.
Speaker:And Joe, Joe the Tech Guy's with us.
Speaker:Evening all.
Speaker:Yeah, so if you're in the chat room, say hello.
Speaker:Or one of them.
Speaker:Yes, the one person in the chat room.
Speaker:Say hello.
Speaker:Who are you in there?
Speaker:Keen to know.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Well, what are we going to talk about in this episode?
Speaker:A little bit of a feedback from my voice episode.
Speaker:And then of course, we've got to talk about Israel, Palestine, Gaza, Strip,
Speaker:and everything that's going on there.
Speaker:Solve the problems of the Middle East in half an hour.
Speaker:That's what podcasters do.
Speaker:So we'll have a go at that.
Speaker:Don's in the chat room, Chris is in the chat room.
Speaker:Good on you guys.
Speaker:Thanks for...
Speaker:Joining us.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So yeah, last week was my recorded episode on The Voice.
Speaker:Had a lovely time in North Queensland, a tropical island, getting away from it all.
Speaker:And got some feedback afterwards.
Speaker:Some good and some bad.
Speaker:So, Jimmy sent a lovely message, which was, Hi Trevor, just wanted to shoot
Speaker:you a quick message after listening to your podcast about The Voice.
Speaker:I just want to congratulate you and your commend you for a well reasoned and
Speaker:thoughtful opinion which is contrary to the popular opinions amongst my friends.
Speaker:In fact, it was extremely brave.
Speaker:I will still be voting yes, but I can't say that there was anything
Speaker:you said that I disagreed with.
Speaker:Very well done.
Speaker:Thanks.
Speaker:Fantastic feedback, Jimmy.
Speaker:Like, I don't expect to change people's minds, but that's a lovely comment.
Speaker:Thank you for that.
Speaker:Wotley he sends me voice messages.
Speaker:An interesting thing about Wotley is he's still thinking about it.
Speaker:He's still not sure what he's doing, but he's humming and ah ing and over the
Speaker:place, so some nice feedback from Wotley.
Speaker:Roman sent me an email and had a few things that she wanted to sort of,
Speaker:pick up with me where she differed she did just mention generally
Speaker:moving away from her critique of the podcast, but just generally that she's
Speaker:disappointed the way the voice debate has been going on, on both sides.
Speaker:Gentlemen, your observations of the debate in general that you've
Speaker:seen online, on Facebook, Twitter.
Speaker:In other places, anything about the debate struck you?
Speaker:I think the Yes camp left their run too late.
Speaker:You know, it's one of those things like, it's all very well for Albanese to be
Speaker:puffing his chest out saying that we've had some good results in the last month.
Speaker:Yeah, but that was probably three months too late.
Speaker:Had they started three months ago, had they been doing what they've
Speaker:been doing in this last month, then you probably would be looking at a
Speaker:more competitive position for Yes.
Speaker:But I think it's probably too late for them.
Speaker:So what have they been doing lately that they weren't doing before?
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:I don't watch a whole lot of news.
Speaker:I only read what's in the, I only read what's online and that type of thing, so.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:You know, it's well, Albanese was up here in Queensland spruiking
Speaker:it and all that sort of thing.
Speaker:I don't know why he's bothering, because I think that's a lost state to them.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:You know, I would have thought that he's probably better off, you know,
Speaker:what's the current liberal that's the centre, the moderate in Tasmania?
Speaker:What's her name?
Speaker:Bridget Archer?
Speaker:Bridget Archer.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I think to myself that, you know, if Albanese wants to actually have
Speaker:a success, he should be down there because apparently Tasmania looks
Speaker:like they're going to vote yes.
Speaker:And that's because Archer has been crisscrossing the whole state saying,
Speaker:you've got to get out and vote yes.
Speaker:You know, and I don't know about New South Wales and Victoria.
Speaker:I think Victoria's looking at going, yes.
Speaker:New South Wales is potentially gonna go No, but they're just
Speaker:not sure the two that they can write off of Queensland and wa Mm.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Joe, the debate in general, any thoughts?
Speaker:I have seen the usual because of course my local potato mm-hmm.
Speaker:Is he, he sent out some brochure.
Speaker:Which was, oh, it's all indecisive, there's no real meat to it, vote
Speaker:no because we can't be sure.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:Which I have to say is a fairly shit argument.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:It's an appalling argument because, you know, he might as well be attacking
Speaker:the entire Constitution because the Constitution doesn't actually
Speaker:say, you know, they make up the courts and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker:It says you've got to have courts.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:So you've got the courts, but you've just got to make them up.
Speaker:So, but, but aside from that, and there was a few Facebook
Speaker:ads, I really don't do Twitter.
Speaker:But in terms of the media, I've seen a lot of coverage, which has mostly been
Speaker:aiming on the left, on the yes side.
Speaker:There was some balanced stuff from the ABC, which was we interviewed a
Speaker:bunch of people, pro and con and then there was probably the conversation,
Speaker:there was something debunking the UN land grab and talking about
Speaker:some former soap star, apparently, who's got deep into the conspiracy
Speaker:weeds, so there's the United States.
Speaker:Nations, something on indigenous persons.
Speaker:There's a statement on indigenous people that DUN has brought out and
Speaker:I don't know exactly what it says.
Speaker:And apparently if you, oh, so there's a lot in there about reparations
Speaker:and land rights and negotiating with a, an Indigenous council
Speaker:that is nationwide to come in for mining rights and things like that.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So it's a sort of a conspiracy argument that if the voices pass, then these
Speaker:UN resolutions will have effect.
Speaker:Basically.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:So, I don't know.
Speaker:I don't participate on Twitter.
Speaker:I just look at stuff, trying to find interesting topics for this podcast.
Speaker:So there's a lot of left leaning people in life.
Speaker:Followed over time.
Speaker:I'll tell you what, I think they're really falling into the basket of
Speaker:deplorables argument a lot of the time.
Speaker:Where it's just exasperation by a lot of people on the left when they
Speaker:say we're losing this referendum.
Speaker:Goddamn racists who are out there voting, no, and...
Speaker:Really, just essentially saying if anyone is voting no, they must be a racist,
Speaker:they're deplorable people and isn't it terrible that we've got this situation
Speaker:and you couldn't possibly be voting no for reasons that were not racist.
Speaker:Brexit was the same, and I think Trump was the same.
Speaker:Yeah, so I think there's a lot of that going on.
Speaker:So yeah, the standard of...
Speaker:I don't think there's any doubt about it at all.
Speaker:It's something we said right from when it was first mooted.
Speaker:I thought to myself, well, this is just going to be another...
Speaker:This is going to be a way that the, that the yes voters are going to have
Speaker:to say, well, look at these bunch of racists and that type of thing.
Speaker:And I said right from word go that this was going to be a divisive bloody campaign
Speaker:that would not be, would not show us well at all in the light of the whole country.
Speaker:It would make us all look like a pack of lunatics.
Speaker:I don't think the rest of the world's going to care.
Speaker:So two months afterwards.
Speaker:I just, I think you're probably right there.
Speaker:I just think to myself that It sounds like a pretty good argument right
Speaker:now, that you've got to actually worry about what the rest of the world's
Speaker:going to say, but I think you're right, that in two or three months
Speaker:time, no one's going to give a toss.
Speaker:And Australia has an international reputation of
Speaker:being a bunch of racists anyway.
Speaker:Oh, absolutely we do, yeah.
Speaker:Yeah, so, not to slot in with the perception of Australia anyway.
Speaker:Well, exactly.
Speaker:So, I don't know.
Speaker:The debate itself...
Speaker:I still haven't seen anything that's been impressive in the debating that
Speaker:deals with the topics and the issues.
Speaker:It's very tribal sort of thinking in just buy in statements without
Speaker:getting into the nitty gritty.
Speaker:That I like to think I got into in my spiel.
Speaker:People may disagree, but you know, it's hard enough with well meaning
Speaker:people to get your ideas across.
Speaker:So, I mentioned Bronwyn has emailed me with some sort of
Speaker:issues she wants to take up.
Speaker:And the first issue that she mentioned, I really don't think I said it at all.
Speaker:And so I've really just gone back to her and said, look on this first one,
Speaker:tell me exactly what you think I've said, because I don't think I said that.
Speaker:At all.
Speaker:And, you know, I'll wait for Bronwyn to come back to me.
Speaker:But and even Paul from Canberra back in August tried to sort of state
Speaker:what he thought my position was.
Speaker:And his sort of one sentence statement of what he thought
Speaker:it was was completely wrong.
Speaker:It was not my position at all.
Speaker:And so when well meaning people who were listening and trying to, I guess,
Speaker:understand your position I think get it wrong then what do you do when people who
Speaker:are not so well meaning want to, you know, hear you and immediately want to sort
Speaker:of think the worst of you and start...
Speaker:Almost intentionally misinterpreting what you're saying and seeing
Speaker:the worst in what you say.
Speaker:So I know Broman and Paul would be looking at it, trying to think in
Speaker:the best light, but there are people out there who just want to, you know,
Speaker:take So what you're saying is mm-hmm.
Speaker:. Yeah.
Speaker:Do you not remember that interview?
Speaker:No?
Speaker:What was that interview?
Speaker:Oh Channel 4 probably five years ago, Jordan Peterson.
Speaker:Ah, okay.
Speaker:Who I have no time for.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:But she was continually strawmanning everything that he said.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And she'd be saying, so what you're saying is, gives a strawman
Speaker:explanation, and he'd say, no, that's not what I'm saying at all.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And she'd not listen to his answer and then strawman him on the next question.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah, now she was intentionally not well meaning.
Speaker:She was trying to set him up and trying to push an agenda she had.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, I mean, I don't know that she was doing it deliberately, but
Speaker:certainly she wasn't listening to him.
Speaker:Yes, yeah, so, so yeah, and then on Twitter there was this There's a Twitter
Speaker:person, ex skeptic, is voting yes.
Speaker:If you're interested, go on Twitter and have a look at the, the sort
Speaker:of things that this person was saying, and I'm just looking at it
Speaker:going, what are you talking about?
Speaker:You just haven't been listening to what I've been saying.
Speaker:You're just talking nonsense.
Speaker:So, I can't be, I don't enter into social media debates and it's just not
Speaker:the forum to, if people are well meaning and nice and they contact me by email,
Speaker:then I'll respond that way, but I just don't just don't get into online debates,
Speaker:but, yeah, very difficult to have...
Speaker:But people don't want to have a long form conversation.
Speaker:Well, not, that's, that's...
Speaker:Possibly too broad, but lots of people don't want to have
Speaker:a long form conversation.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Because that requires effort, they just want 140 characters,
Speaker:that's it, I've said my piece.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, yeah, the rant.
Speaker:So, so anyway, that's the position at the moment on The Voice.
Speaker:Bronwyn suggested afterwards maybe just do a little bit on the debate
Speaker:post the decision and what it means to Australia and the sort of...
Speaker:Republican party style tactics that were used by Dutton and Co.
Speaker:Maybe we'll get to that.
Speaker:It's one of those things.
Speaker:I think that on, I think that on Sunday morning, once we know the
Speaker:result you know, we'll just move on.
Speaker:You know, it, it comes down to whether or not Albanese wishes to legislate a voice.
Speaker:He said he won't.
Speaker:I know, he said he won't.
Speaker:It's one of those things, it's I was having a chat to a Torres Strait Island
Speaker:gentleman this morning when I was out for a walk, and he was actually very
Speaker:positive around ethic, and I said that I had listened to something around that on
Speaker:7am, and The Attic decision by the Howard government was wrong, because rather than
Speaker:just tinker with it and modernize it and take it down from the top, they abolished
Speaker:the whole bloody thing, you know, which was, which was wrong, and they didn't
Speaker:replace it with anything, which again was wrong, so that is why I'm with you.
Speaker:That's why I favour the voice, that we're getting a vote on it for our
Speaker:constitution now because it would make it a hell of a lot harder for a future Tory
Speaker:government to come in and just destroy it.
Speaker:Anyway, that's enough of a rehash of the voice and I went to vote
Speaker:yesterday and I was surprised by the number of people who pulled into
Speaker:the place before me and after me.
Speaker:There was a steady stream of people who were early voting.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So that was on a Monday?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:So, I mean, obviously, I'm going to be overseas, but be surprised
Speaker:that that number of people had a reason not to vote on Saturday.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:It's one of those things they're asking, they're asking up here, they're just
Speaker:saying to people when they arrive, do you have a reason, you've got a reason
Speaker:that you can't make it in on Saturday?
Speaker:And he says, oh, yeah, I do.
Speaker:And they didn't ask what it was.
Speaker:They just said, yeah.
Speaker:I mean, I told them that I was travelling and therefore wouldn't
Speaker:be there, but all they said was...
Speaker:Do you have a valid reason for early voting?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Go ahead.
Speaker:Oh, okay.
Speaker:I hadn't thought of that.
Speaker:That's exactly what they're doing up here too.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I need to have a line ready for that.
Speaker:It's one of those things.
Speaker:I'm just going to go in on Saturday.
Speaker:Now, enough on the voice.
Speaker:Shall we move on to...
Speaker:Israel, Palestine.
Speaker:So yes, over the weekend, we had that incident where Palestinians broke out of
Speaker:the Gaza area into, across the demarcation line and rockets were fired, people were
Speaker:killed by gunfire as well, and hostages were taken back into the Gaza, and the
Speaker:world is in shock and you've all no doubt read bits and pieces about it.
Speaker:And really, the thing that strikes me about this is that sort of Jewish
Speaker:suffering in Nazi concentration camps, you know, generated enormous
Speaker:sympathy for Jewish people, rightly so.
Speaker:And we've come around to the point now where, where Israel is really
Speaker:conducting In the Gaza, some sort of modern day Warsaw Ghetto, for
Speaker:various reasons that we'll get into.
Speaker:A ghetto, possibly.
Speaker:Your previous, your show notes say concentration camp, which I would
Speaker:disagree with, and they are not.
Speaker:Not doing the wholesale industrial slaughter that the Nazis did.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:I like the Warsaw Ghetto one, so I threw that in.
Speaker:The Ghetto is probably more close to what's happening.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Particularly with the Ghetto in that it was a sealed, contained area that
Speaker:people couldn't move in and out of.
Speaker:But there is a difference, the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto hadn't
Speaker:said that they wanted to wipe the Nazis off the face of the earth.
Speaker:Yes, so let's get into, let's just a little bit more of the scene, and
Speaker:then, so on the one hand, you've got people particularly sympathetic to
Speaker:the Jewish Israeli side who say, this is terrible and an outrage, and...
Speaker:And, who have been completely silent to all of the Palestinian deaths
Speaker:over the last decades, but who are now outraged by the Israeli deaths.
Speaker:And then on the other hand, you've got people who are saying, well, what did
Speaker:you expect if you set up a situation like this where these people have no hope?
Speaker:And why have you, you know, why are you suddenly now concerned about
Speaker:Israeli deaths when there's been all these Palestinian deaths and
Speaker:a sort of a pro Palestinian side?
Speaker:And, and, well, Joe, add your flavour of opinion to that mix.
Speaker:Well, so, the, the whole Jewish homeland had been an issue for a long time.
Speaker:Yeah, late 19th century.
Speaker:They were talking about the pogroms that had historically happened,
Speaker:and they said we cannot trust a government to look after our rights.
Speaker:We can't trust a government to protect us from other citizens.
Speaker:We need a Jewish home.
Speaker:The problem comes from this idea that...
Speaker:The Levant was granted to them by God that it is their divine birthright
Speaker:to live in that bit of land.
Speaker:But unfortunately, Jerusalem is considered the holy land for three major religions.
Speaker:All of the Abrahamic religions.
Speaker:They all want to have control of it.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:, I, I know that originally there was talk of them going to Madagascar.
Speaker:There was talk at one stage of selling off a large part of wa.
Speaker:I, I think had the Jews moved to Northern wa that would probably have been good
Speaker:for Australia and good for the Jews,
Speaker:possibly not for the Aboriginals.
Speaker:But no, I don't think the Reinhardts would've agreed with that.
Speaker:But, you know, you can, well, maybe not, but.
Speaker:I just think to myself, had they taken the North West of Western Australia, then
Speaker:you could carve that into two states.
Speaker:You could call one of them Israel, the other one WA.
Speaker:Yeah, you know, you could have had a, you could have had a you
Speaker:could have had another state in the Commonwealth that could have had 12
Speaker:Senators and all that sort of thing.
Speaker:Their, their native language would have been Hebrew and that type of thing.
Speaker:So you'd end up with, you'd end up with a bilingual nation down here,
Speaker:you'd have English and Hebrew.
Speaker:So, you know.
Speaker:Sliding doors, hmm.
Speaker:Yeah, I know, and it would have, you know, I honestly believe that in
Speaker:1947 a terrible mistake was made, a terrible, terrible mistake was made.
Speaker:You know, they were trying to recreate something that hadn't
Speaker:existed for 2, 000 years.
Speaker:If it ever existed.
Speaker:If it ever existed, you know.
Speaker:Let's take their, let's take their, their explanation of history as being reality.
Speaker:That it was, it was the Jewish homeland and all that sort of stuff
Speaker:before the Romans kicked them out.
Speaker:So let's take that as realistic.
Speaker:Then, what they were trying to do was recreate something that
Speaker:hadn't existed for 2, 000 years.
Speaker:And that was absolutely crazy that they thought they could do that.
Speaker:You know, and I agree with, I agree with the whole point that Trevor raised
Speaker:saying that the barbaric manner in which the Jews were treated by the Nazis meant
Speaker:that, you know, rightly so, there was a hell of a lot of sympathy for them.
Speaker:You know, I agreed wholeheartedly with that sympathy, however, you know,
Speaker:the sympathy is being edged away.
Speaker:Little by little, every year, when you see them react so blatantly
Speaker:horrible towards the Palestinians.
Speaker:And, you know, it's one of those things, I've got an old friend of mine up in
Speaker:Toowoomba who said that what they ought to do is they would put a sign facing
Speaker:out from the Palestinian border and that sort of stuff saying, Arbeit Macht Frei,
Speaker:which is Work Will Set You Free, you know, which was the Nazi concentration camp.
Speaker:Logo that they had on the wall,
Speaker:it's one of those things,
Speaker:I'm sorry.
Speaker:Are you back with us, Scott?
Speaker:I think he pulled the cable out.
Speaker:I think he did.
Speaker:No, he's back now.
Speaker:I am back, yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's one of those things, I just think that a terrible, terrible mistake was
Speaker:made in 1947, and we've now got to deal with it right now, and I think the only
Speaker:sensible solution is a two state solution.
Speaker:But if part of that, well, what is it, around about 50 percent of the
Speaker:Palestinians are represented by Hamas, which is completely opposed
Speaker:to Israel even existing, then I just don't think you're going to
Speaker:be gaining too much transportation.
Speaker:Palestine should be an Islamic state.
Speaker:Yeah, I know that, and that's even worse.
Speaker:You know, because there's, there'd be no chance of it being secular at all.
Speaker:No, they want a Western, a Western Iran, as in an Iran to
Speaker:the west of the current West Iran.
Speaker:Yeah, I know.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And the problem is that the West Bank is just dotted with all of these
Speaker:settlements that are, some of them Palestinian, some of them Jewish.
Speaker:With these corridors, you know, connecting them, very hard to do a
Speaker:proper borderline now in that area.
Speaker:It'd be virtually impossible.
Speaker:It's a mess.
Speaker:It's a right mess.
Speaker:And who predicted the mess in the first place, Scott?
Speaker:Albert Einstein.
Speaker:Oh, did he?
Speaker:Who wrote, who wrote in the beginning this is shortly after 1947, I think
Speaker:So, let me just see what he wrote here.
Speaker:Dear Sir, when a real and final catastrophe should befall us in
Speaker:Palestine, the first responsible for it would be the British and the second
Speaker:responsible for it, the terrorist organisations built up from our own ranks.
Speaker:I'm not willing to see anybody associated with those misled and criminal people.
Speaker:So, he, he saw terrorism coming from within Jewish ranks because of...
Speaker:The nature of what was being set up.
Speaker:But interestingly, the terrorism was the Jews against the British.
Speaker:And it was the Americans who funded the Jewish landing.
Speaker:They provide the arms and the equipment.
Speaker:So...
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, you go back to 1917 with the Balfour Declaration which
Speaker:was the British talking to the Jews and saying yes, you can set up a
Speaker:Jewish homeland inside Palestine.
Speaker:Yeah, but I think the British were making those sorts of
Speaker:guarantees to everyone at the time.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:They were trying to, they were trying to undo the Ottoman Empire.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You know, so they were making promises to the Palestinians,
Speaker:they were making promises to the Jews, and on the other side...
Speaker:They were the French.
Speaker:Yeah, I know.
Speaker:It was one of those, it's a hell of a mess.
Speaker:Mmm.
Speaker:How messy has it been in recent times?
Speaker:Bernard Keane was writing in Crikey, just talking about the number of
Speaker:deaths on the Palestinian side.
Speaker:So, in 2022, there was 117...
Speaker:172 Palestinians murdered.
Speaker:This is from...
Speaker:The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, so this
Speaker:isn't sort of Israeli or Palestinian figures, but sort of UN figures 80
Speaker:Palestinians killed in 2021 in the past decade, 3, 081 Palestinian
Speaker:civilians killed, 132, 000 injured.
Speaker:They just want to grab the lands, though.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:The Palestinians.
Speaker:No, no, the United Nations.
Speaker:Yes, thanks Joe.
Speaker:Just like they're trying with the Aboriginals over here.
Speaker:Yes, that's nasty UN.
Speaker:What else have we got here?
Speaker:Ah, so that was that.
Speaker:There's all sorts of statistics available about the poor treatment of the
Speaker:Palestinians at the hands of the Israelis.
Speaker:As you rightly point out, Joe, there's an existential risk from the
Speaker:Palestinians towards the Israelis.
Speaker:Well, not just the Palestinians.
Speaker:All of the Arab states have tried a number of times to wipe Israel off the map.
Speaker:And they've always got a bloody nose out of it.
Speaker:They have, but that doesn't mean that they don't want to and that they
Speaker:wouldn't, given half a chance, try again.
Speaker:Yeah, I know that.
Speaker:It's probably the, nuclear, the fact that the Israelis have a nuclear bomb that
Speaker:has stopped it happening again in the last, whatever it is, 40 years, 50 years.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:67 was the last time it happened, that was the Yom Kippur War, wasn't it?
Speaker:I thought they said 50, 50 years and a day since the last one.
Speaker:So that was 72.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:73.
Speaker:Okay, gotcha.
Speaker:It's interesting, just the sort of, the propaganda and the framing
Speaker:and how media pushes certain lines and people push their own angles
Speaker:and how subtly this can be done.
Speaker:So Alan McLeod in a tweet pointed out reporting by BBC News and World
Speaker:News, and so, the BBC reported.
Speaker:More than 700 people have been killed in Israel since Hamas
Speaker:launched its attacks on Saturday.
Speaker:And at the same time, they wrote, more than 500 people have died
Speaker:in Gaza after Israel launched massive retaliatory airstrikes,
Speaker:according to Gaza's health ministry.
Speaker:So on the one hand, it's saying 700 killed in Israel, 500 in Gaza,
Speaker:but there's subtle things here.
Speaker:It said 700 people have been killed in Israel, where it said
Speaker:500 people have died in Gaza.
Speaker:And the one in relation to Gaza also finished with, according to Gaza's health
Speaker:ministry, which casts doubt on whether you want to believe their figures or not.
Speaker:So there's just a framing there that instead of saying 500 were
Speaker:killed in Gaza, it's just have died.
Speaker:And these are sort of subtle framings of things that can make a difference
Speaker:in your perception of which side you're going to favour, if any, in these things.
Speaker:So I thought that was interesting.
Speaker:Albanese our Prime Minister, has come out.
Speaker:Clearly on Israel's side in this.
Speaker:It's interesting that UK Labor last year, two years ago, had a
Speaker:big spat between the pro Israeli and the pro Palestine factions.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:With their accusations of anti Semitism.
Speaker:So, and I'm fairly sure Corbyn, because he was pro Palestine, that
Speaker:was one of the reasons he was toppled.
Speaker:Yes, for sure.
Speaker:In the John Menendee blog, there's a guy, Paul Hayward Smith, an Adelaide
Speaker:Kings Council of some 20 years.
Speaker:He was the initial chairperson of the Australian Friends of Palestine
Speaker:Association, and he's authored a book, The Case for Palestine.
Speaker:He was writing in the John Menendee blog, saying that there's a pressing need
Speaker:for Australians to assess the situation from an informed and balanced position.
Speaker:Australians must understand that what they are seeing is the response of
Speaker:a people pushed beyond endurance.
Speaker:And essentially there's been a blockade in the Gaza for 16 years.
Speaker:Nothing goes in or out without Israel, Israeli approval.
Speaker:And now what did he say here is Australia's failure to act has
Speaker:contributed to the current quagmire.
Speaker:Had the ALP on gaining office in 2022 done what its rank and file had called for
Speaker:at, at a preceding national conference, Namely, to recognise Palestine, who
Speaker:knows what might have followed, and he argues that some other countries might
Speaker:have followed, recognising Palestine, if Australia had, and maybe that would
Speaker:have been enough to keep them happy, I don't know about that, but in any event.
Speaker:I don't think it would have kept Hamas from launching the attack.
Speaker:Correct, and because we've already finished saying not so long ago that
Speaker:nobody cares what Australia thinks or does about anything anyway.
Speaker:But, that was interesting that ALP conference had called for recognising
Speaker:Palestine, wasn't aware of that, but ALP leadership doesn't follow that line.
Speaker:I thought the vast majority of countries have recognised Palestine.
Speaker:Hmm, probably not the sort of main Western countries, would that be right?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I don't think so.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:So yeah of course, Richard Marles, our Defence Minister, said the
Speaker:unprovoked attacks from militant Hamas on Israel are abhorrent.
Speaker:There is no justification for these brutal attacks on Israel.
Speaker:Australia calls for these attacks to end and recognise
Speaker:Israel's right to defend itself.
Speaker:So you know about The U.
Speaker:S., I mean, A, there's a large Jewish vote in the U.
Speaker:S., which is why the U.
Speaker:S.
Speaker:very, very heavily supports Israel.
Speaker:But the evangelicals believe that the second coming of Christ is going to be
Speaker:kicked off by a war of the Middle East.
Speaker:So, a lot of evangelicals are deliberately trying to foment war in
Speaker:the Middle East because they believe it heralds the second coming of Christ.
Speaker:Yes, and a lot of weapons manufacturers are quite happy
Speaker:to see trouble there as well.
Speaker:So yeah, so that was Richard Marles.
Speaker:Meanwhile, the Greens, Jenny Leong from the Greens.
Speaker:She was complaining on Twitter because...
Speaker:Albanese had said that the pro Palestine protest should not go ahead, and...
Speaker:Bernard Keane had commented, what next, a ban on criticising Israel?
Speaker:And this Jenny Leong, the MP, Greens MP said but apparently lighting
Speaker:up the Australian Parliament and Sydney Opera House in support of
Speaker:those bombing Palestinian people in Gaza into oblivion is legit.
Speaker:Disgraceful to see political leaders fail to recognise the complexity and reality of
Speaker:this human rights and humanitarian crisis.
Speaker:So, what do you think, Scott or Joe, should the Australian Parliament
Speaker:or the Sydney Opera House be lit up in Israeli colours or flags to show
Speaker:support, or should we stay neutral on
Speaker:the opposition?
Speaker:I'm not entirely sure about that.
Speaker:It's one of those things, I, I can understand the government wanting to
Speaker:light the place up blue and white just to say that, you know, we're on the
Speaker:Israel side and that type of thing.
Speaker:Because this does appear to have...
Speaker:Should we be on Israel's side in this to recognize, I think we've got
Speaker:to recognize a Palestinian state.
Speaker:And, you know, we've got to actually sit down with Fatah and that sort of
Speaker:stuff and actually negotiate with them.
Speaker:I don't think we should be talking to Hamas.
Speaker:But I do believe that we should be talking to Fatah and that sort of stuff to try
Speaker:and get something knotted out with them.
Speaker:And I think that if the, I think if the rest of the Western world would
Speaker:go along with that and saying, look, we're going to negotiate with Fatah,
Speaker:we're not going to negotiate with Hamas, then eventually Hamas will end
Speaker:up withering on the vine and dying.
Speaker:Unfortunately Hamas is supported by the people in in the Gaza Strip.
Speaker:In the Gaza Strip.
Speaker:Yeah, I know that.
Speaker:And that's why...
Speaker:The blockade is because Hamas was rocketing Israeli settlements, and
Speaker:so it was to stop weapons being brought in, particularly from Egypt.
Speaker:There was a huge problem with missiles and rockets coming in from Egypt.
Speaker:I really don't know how you solve it.
Speaker:There is no solution, but there is no solution.
Speaker:You, you, you've got to actually, you've got to bang their two heads together
Speaker:because you know, they're, you know, they're both, that's what they're doing.
Speaker:Yeah, I know, but you've got to actually, you know, you've got to actually bang
Speaker:their heads together because, you know, you're one, one's the tribe of Abraham.
Speaker:The other one's the tribe of Abraham and they were both brothers, you know, it's.
Speaker:Family fights are the worst.
Speaker:Yeah, I know, but this is the whole point.
Speaker:The world is being dragged into this whole bloody family feud, which is ridiculous.
Speaker:Just getting back to this provoked and unprovoked.
Speaker:So Richard Miles said the unprovoked attacks from militant
Speaker:Hamas on Israel are abhorrent.
Speaker:And Caitlin Johnston in an article quotes a whole bunch of people who
Speaker:like the White House, for example, said the United States unequivocally
Speaker:condemns the unprovoked attacks.
Speaker:And House Speaker Jim Jordan said, The unprovoked terror attack today.
Speaker:And Robert F.
Speaker:Kennedy Jr.
Speaker:said, The ignominious, unprovoked, and barbaric attack.
Speaker:And she goes on and on with people saying unprovoked.
Speaker:Like, Joe, even somebody with a fairly hard ish position like yours on the danger
Speaker:of Palestinians having access to weapons, etc., etc., You couldn't claim it was an
Speaker:unprovoked attack, like you'd say, Oh, and plenty of provocation to do what they did.
Speaker:Would you say it was unprovoked?
Speaker:You'd be happy to say, yeah, it was provoked, but it's all in context.
Speaker:I was going to say it's provoked on both sides, but at the end of the day, don't
Speaker:think the Jewish people should be there.
Speaker:It wasn't like it was an empty piece of...
Speaker:ground that they bought.
Speaker:They claimed it by divine right and invaded.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And you know, it's bloody crooked what they actually did.
Speaker:You know, they, they shot the poor bastards up that
Speaker:couldn't get away on time.
Speaker:And it was really criminal the way they actually took over the place.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But you can have a pretty dim view of palace of Palestinians
Speaker:and Hamas and, and yet.
Speaker:You really can't go to the point of saying it was unprovoked.
Speaker:There was plenty of provocation there.
Speaker:It's just a function of, of what the situation's been in.
Speaker:So, but yeah, people are running around saying it was an unprovoked attack.
Speaker:Yeah, I know that, but you know, it's just one of those things, I've
Speaker:said it before and I'll say it again.
Speaker:You know, do you honestly believe if the PLO were as well armed as the IDF, that
Speaker:they would show the same sort of restraint that the IDF has shown, or would they
Speaker:drive the Jews into the Mediterranean?
Speaker:I think the latter would be more, would be more likely.
Speaker:Couldn't argue against you.
Speaker:Couldn't argue against you.
Speaker:So, it's just a mess.
Speaker:It's a mess from its inception, and there is no solution.
Speaker:It was an absolute travesty that they actually did it.
Speaker:Right, what else can we say about it?
Speaker:A bit of Caitlin Johnston.
Speaker:Nobody can tell me what the Palestinians should do instead that
Speaker:is both realistic and reasonable.
Speaker:It would be easy for me to sit here in my armchair and say the Palestinians
Speaker:should either maintain the status quo or lie down, relinquish their homes
Speaker:and homeland and accept whatever table scraps they're able to get, but
Speaker:we can see it from the Palestinian perspective that that's not reasonable.
Speaker:It would be easy for me to sit in my armchair and argue that Palestinians
Speaker:should just focus on securing A one state or two state solution, but we
Speaker:can see from the Israeli political landscape that that's not realistic.
Speaker:So what else can they do?
Speaker:What reasonable and realistic options do they have?
Speaker:No one can provide me with a satisfactory answer.
Speaker:Ultimately, this is just Palestinians doing what they feel they need
Speaker:to do out of total desperation.
Speaker:Because they feel backed into a corner with no other options.
Speaker:And they feel backed into a corner with no other options because that
Speaker:does not appear to be the case.
Speaker:But Fatar seem to have reached a better settlement, a better agreement.
Speaker:So it's not the Palestinians, it's Hamas.
Speaker:So Fatah being in the West Bank.
Speaker:West Bank, yeah.
Speaker:It's one of those things, I just think to myself that I can understand where
Speaker:she's coming from, but by the same token, what's this going to get them?
Speaker:All it's going to do is, all it's going to do is result in Israel taking
Speaker:out a very heavy hammer and they're going to smash it down hard on the,
Speaker:on the people that are in Gaza.
Speaker:So let's talk about West Bank then, Joe.
Speaker:Should the people in, the Palestinians in the West Bank just accept what
Speaker:they've got and Israel should come to some two state solution with the, with
Speaker:the Palestinians in the West Bank?
Speaker:That's what was being negotiated.
Speaker:No, I think Israel...
Speaker:From what I understand, the new settlers are coming in and
Speaker:building willy nilly as well.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:It doesn't seem the current Israeli government is up for a two state solution.
Speaker:No, they're not.
Speaker:Even in the West Bank.
Speaker:Well, let's just ignore the Gaza for the moment, but...
Speaker:Whether you stick UN peacekeepers in as has happened in a number of states...
Speaker:Yeah, but see, you're going to have to have the UN there permanently, aren't you?
Speaker:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker:There are so many pocketed little settlements intermixed amongst each other.
Speaker:You'd need an enormous force if you were to repartition.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:It's one of those things, I think that, I think the Jews are going to have to
Speaker:abandon their whole settlements and that sort of stuff, but rather than
Speaker:actually bulldozing them like they did the last time they abandoned them,
Speaker:they ought to actually pack up and then leave, and leave behind the homes and
Speaker:everything that were built there for the Palestinians to actually inhabit.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Do you Israelis should, should retreat back out of the settlements
Speaker:and they should leave the settlement buildings and that sort of stuff
Speaker:behind with keys and everything for the Palestinians to take them up.
Speaker:Yeah, that's just never going to happen, isn't it?
Speaker:I know, because, you know, the last time they did that, which was after the...
Speaker:government told them to, they wouldn't do it.
Speaker:Yeah, I know, it's...
Speaker:The last time they actually retreated from a settlement and that sort of
Speaker:stuff, it was a ridiculous situation that they had a that they actually
Speaker:bulldozed the settlements and that sort of stuff, and then they
Speaker:withdrew, which was absolutely crazy.
Speaker:It was a real churlish thing that the Israelis did there.
Speaker:You know, where they said, well, you know, they basically raised their
Speaker:middle finger and said, well, fuck you, you're not having our buildings.
Speaker:You know, which was very churlish to do.
Speaker:Noisy Andrew.
Speaker:What would I do if my family had been forced into a
Speaker:ghetto for three generations?
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:I'm very lucky that I was born in Australia, so I
Speaker:don't know what I would do.
Speaker:Now, I can understand where you're coming from, because the Palestinians
Speaker:have been forced into this ghetto situation for three generations.
Speaker:Do I believe that they're actually going to get anywhere with their
Speaker:violence and that sort of stuff?
Speaker:No, I don't.
Speaker:Do I understand why they've actually taken to the streets and that
Speaker:type of thing, hurling Molotov cocktails at the, at the Jews?
Speaker:Absolutely, I do.
Speaker:I fully understand that.
Speaker:Do I support them?
Speaker:No, I don't.
Speaker:But, it's one of those things, I don't know what the answer is.
Speaker:You know, it's a terrible, terrible mistake that was made in
Speaker:1947.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:What the Israeli defense minister said, he said, quote, I've ordered
Speaker:a complete siege on the Gaza Strip.
Speaker:There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel.
Speaker:Everything is closed.
Speaker:We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly.
Speaker:Terrible.
Speaker:I know, it's one of those things...
Speaker:It just, it creates the next generation of Hamas supporters is the problem.
Speaker:It does.
Speaker:You know, because...
Speaker:Even without religion, I was talking to my wife about this because we were just
Speaker:talking about religious differences, and I was like, even if you wiped out religious
Speaker:differences, there's so much bad blood now where just as a, you know, on each side,
Speaker:particularly the Palestinian side would be saying those goddamn people over there...
Speaker:We're responsible for killing my mother, my father, my uncle, my kids, whatever,
Speaker:just a whole range of family members.
Speaker:Very impossible to sort of get these people to come to this country.
Speaker:I had this growing up with Northern Ireland, which, you
Speaker:know, that was 400 years ago.
Speaker:That all started, and they, it's a very uneasy peace agreement
Speaker:I, I think the answer is, is, is breaking up the, the enclaves.
Speaker:It's forcing them to intermingle, it's forcing them to go to the same schools.
Speaker:Yeah, but, you know, that's that all sounds well and good, but it's
Speaker:just not going to happen because you've got people that are, you've
Speaker:got people that speak Arabic, you've got people that speak Hebrew.
Speaker:So what are they gonna do?
Speaker:Which language are they gonna settle on to educate their kids?
Speaker:Are they going to educate them in Hebrew or educate them in Arabic?
Speaker:You know, I can't imagine a Jewish family and that sort of stuff
Speaker:being particularly happy that their kids are being taught in Arabic.
Speaker:I think they're all bilingual, or lots of them are bilingual.
Speaker:Yeah, I know they, they're English and Arabic.
Speaker:English and Arabic.
Speaker:English and Arabic or English and Hebrew.
Speaker:So, you know, I suppose you could actually say, well, we're gonna
Speaker:teach everything in English.
Speaker:I think even the Israeli speak.
Speaker:Arabic.
Speaker:I'll do that.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:But it's just, I forget the language, just there wouldn't be the trust
Speaker:in the communities for each other.
Speaker:Yeah, what a, what a complete mess.
Speaker:On the...
Speaker:Oh yeah, you've got another one saying, you know, would you, would
Speaker:you believe that creation of Pakistan in 1947 was a terrible mistake?
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Partition, absolutely.
Speaker:It was a terrible mistake.
Speaker:You know, it was the only thing that, it was the only thing that kept
Speaker:them from killing each other, but...
Speaker:It was a disaster, the way it happened.
Speaker:And I don't know that it did keep them from killing each
Speaker:other because there was...
Speaker:Oh, there were terrible border disputes and everything like that.
Speaker:But even during partition, as partition happened, there were
Speaker:horrible, horrible massacres.
Speaker:So, yeah, I think India should have remained a...
Speaker:A single country.
Speaker:A single country that was secular, that didn't have an
Speaker:Islamic side and a Hindu side.
Speaker:And now we've got the Sikhs as well who want their own homeland.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:It's one of those things, the old boy must be rolling in his
Speaker:grave because it's all he wanted.
Speaker:Which Gandhi?
Speaker:Oh, right.
Speaker:Well, all Gandhi, all Gandhi wanted was a, was a, was a secular.
Speaker:India was, well, I, I'd heard it was Nru who wanted the secular enduring
Speaker:Gandhi was a Hindu nationalist.
Speaker:I don't know about that.
Speaker:I thought, I thought it was the other way around.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I, I couldn't tell.
Speaker:I thought both of them wanted a secular country.
Speaker:Noisy Andrew says, we can't afford a cricket team that good.
Speaker:The best of India and Pakistan together.
Speaker:Still on the comedy line.
Speaker:It's one of those things, I just think to myself, if they could
Speaker:actually get their act together over cricket, then that would have
Speaker:actually solved a hell of the problems.
Speaker:Still on the comedy line, good news from Canada breaking news, Canadian
Speaker:lawmakers have announced that in solidarity with Israel, they won't honour
Speaker:Waffen SS veterans for one whole week.
Speaker:Do you remember that scene where the Canadian parliament stood up and gave a
Speaker:standing ovation to some Nazi SS veteran?
Speaker:Did you see that?
Speaker:I don't remember that.
Speaker:He was a Ukrainian.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Who had fought against the Soviet Union during the Nazi occupation.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So he had joined the Waffen SS as a, basically as a foreign legion.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So he had fought, he'd joined a foreign legion of Germans to
Speaker:fight against the Soviets during the Soviet occupation of Ukraine.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And he had joined up as a 17 year old.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Did he deserve a standing ovation in Canadian Parliament, Joe?
Speaker:It's very difficult to say.
Speaker:If he'd been a Soviet soldier, should he have had a standing ovation?
Speaker:The Soviets were as brutal as the Germans.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:In that case, probably not.
Speaker:Probably shouldn't be giving standing ovations to soldiers.
Speaker:I think there were no rights, there were no wrongs on that.
Speaker:It was a horrible...
Speaker:It was a terrible clusterfuck, I think.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:How's that Ukrainian counter offensive going?
Speaker:Are we finished with with Gaza?
Speaker:The Ukrainian counter offensive...
Speaker:Are you done and dusted with Gaza?
Speaker:I think so.
Speaker:Oh, is it?
Speaker:It is.
Speaker:Very, very slowly.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:It's one of those things, they're going to have to pull up stumps on it
Speaker:before too long because the raining season's about to start, and then
Speaker:after that it's going to go to snow.
Speaker:So, I think that we'll have to wait until next year to find out
Speaker:where it's going to end up at all.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Well, so, the military analyst that I listen to has actually said, because
Speaker:these aren't large scale armoured.
Speaker:movements, actually, the minor things that are happening will carry
Speaker:on happening through the winter.
Speaker:Because it's a handful of troops.
Speaker:Basically, because the amount of artillery, you cannot amass
Speaker:a large armored formation to break through the lines.
Speaker:So it's, it's had to be piecemeal.
Speaker:You take a position, dig into that position, make yourself set up and
Speaker:then move to the next position.
Speaker:So it's, it's slowly inching forward.
Speaker:According to the New York Times, they put out a graph saying that since
Speaker:January 1, Ukraine has gained 143.
Speaker:square miles of territory.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:The only problem is that the Russians gained 331 square miles.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Because the Ukrainians are attacking heavily defended lines and the
Speaker:Russians are effectively attacking Some Ukrainians in a field, so completely
Speaker:different levels of effort required.
Speaker:Yeah, and the point is the Ukrainians are trying to inch their artillery forward
Speaker:enough to break the land bridge to Crimea.
Speaker:And once they do that, effectively, the Crimean peninsula is isolated.
Speaker:The Russians regaining land really doesn't matter.
Speaker:It's, yeah, I mean, it's, it's fields.
Speaker:So it's important to Ukraine as there are foreign invaders on our soil.
Speaker:It's important to the villagers who are being terrorized by the Russian soldiers
Speaker:who appear to be badly disciplined underpaid and are taking it out on the
Speaker:villagers that they can get their hands on and looting the houses because they're
Speaker:not getting enough money from the army, so they're taking whatever they can.
Speaker:But in strategic terms, I don't think the landmass that the Russians
Speaker:are taking has any major impact.
Speaker:So anyway, with the counter offensive probably won't know to
Speaker:be continued next summer, almost.
Speaker:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker:So the Russian Minister of Defence has said the war has
Speaker:to last till 2025 at least.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So the Russians are in it for the long haul.
Speaker:The question is whether the Western Allies will keep up providing munitions and, and,
Speaker:if we're waiting now another till the next summer, can we really call it the same
Speaker:counter offensive, if that's the case?
Speaker:Who knows?
Speaker:Probably be another counter offensive, is what I thought.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Anyway.
Speaker:It depends if they manage to inch forward enough that they can get
Speaker:their guns through next summer.
Speaker:I would say it's still part of the same counteroffensive.
Speaker:Anyway, you listen a lot to Perun.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So it sounds like John in the chat room also listens to or watches Perun.
Speaker:So, I read a bit of Moon over Alabama.
Speaker:Yeah, the comments in there were interesting.
Speaker:Yes, there's a lot of Crikey's in there, but there's some good stuff in there.
Speaker:A lot of Russian bots in there, yes.
Speaker:Yep, but you know, add references to the New York Times article, for example.
Speaker:There's things like that in there that are good.
Speaker:Yes, alright.
Speaker:Well, what can you, you know, wrapping up, as we're about to wrap
Speaker:up, dear listener, really, there's just no hope with Israel Palestine.
Speaker:It's an, just cannot be resolved without some...
Speaker:I don't think it can be resolved either.
Speaker:without some...
Speaker:Ugly, massive war of some sort.
Speaker:And in the, and in the follow up to that, there's some new demarcation,
Speaker:but it will take something quite.
Speaker:Extraordinary, and this will be a by product of something
Speaker:else that's extraordinary.
Speaker:Just can't see it happening in isolation on its own.
Speaker:I honestly think the best outcome is UN peacekeepers enforcing a demilitarized
Speaker:zone and making sure that the two warring sides can't get to each other.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But there's so many pockets of different settlements in that
Speaker:West Bank that it's, it's...
Speaker:And again, I think you have to, and the fact that there's actually three
Speaker:enclaves, because there's the Golan Heights as well but the Israelis are
Speaker:not going to give up the Golan Heights because that's where Syria started
Speaker:shelling during the 1967 war, yeah.
Speaker:What a mess.
Speaker:We are so lucky here to be out of all that.
Speaker:Right, dear listener.
Speaker:That'll do us.
Speaker:Joe, are you around next week?
Speaker:When do you go?
Speaker:Oh, I fly out on Thursday.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Not sure where you'll be or what your situation will be.
Speaker:Oh, well, the first couple of weeks I am in Devon.
Speaker:I'm hoping that I'm going to have internet there.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:And it starts at 9.
Speaker:30 in the morning UK time.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Currently 9.
Speaker:30 in the morning?
Speaker:No, it's actually 10.
Speaker:30.
Speaker:Because they've still got daylight savings until the end of October.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Well, you'll come back in the next episode as our European correspondent,
Speaker:rather than Joe the tech guy.
Speaker:So, a new role for you.
Speaker:You'll be our ear on the ground for all things...
Speaker:For all things UK.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:Well, , dear listener, We'll talk to you then.
Speaker:Bye for now.
Speaker:And it's a good night from me.
Speaker:And it's a good night from him.
Speaker:Oh, hello there.
Speaker:I'm Left Wing.
Speaker:You can probably tell from the cultural Marxism coming out of my face.
Speaker:But let's not waste too much time pointing out that these pantomime villains are bad.
Speaker:The more interesting question is, who is to blame for making neo Nazis
Speaker:look like the new rock'n'roll punk?
Speaker:And the answer is unfortunately, partly, us.
Speaker:Don't get me wrong, I love Left Wing values and hope that one day
Speaker:they'll win out across the globe.
Speaker:It's just that, on that day, I don't want any actual left wing
Speaker:people to be alive to see it happen.
Speaker:Why?
Speaker:Because we're fucking useless.
Speaker:I mean, first of all, Brexit.
Speaker:What the fuck happened there?
Speaker:Well, the left employed a cunning two prong strategy by, one, calling every
Speaker:Leave voter a racist, and, two failing to put forward a positive case for Remain.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Weird how not engaging 17 million Brits and slacking them off instead didn't win
Speaker:them over, but at least yelling RACIST online made us feel good about ourselves
Speaker:and had no bad long lasting side effects.
Speaker:The UK has voted to leave the European Union.
Speaker:Ah, shit.
Speaker:Well, don't worry, after Brexit we learnt our lesson.
Speaker:And then the US election came along, we thought, nah, let's just do that again.
Speaker:You could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call
Speaker:the basket of deplorables.
Speaker:Not surprisingly, the left's campaign of, vote for us you pieces
Speaker:of shit, didn't pan out so well.
Speaker:Ah, I don't know what I said, ah!
Speaker:But don't worry, it's not just the big battles.
Speaker:The left are totally useless on a small scale as well.
Speaker:This is largely thanks to the foul brick of nightmares we all have sewn into our
Speaker:hands, which means we're also bleeding woke all the time, that we find something
Speaker:new to be offended by every few seconds.
Speaker:To find out more about why this new outraged left is losing ground,
Speaker:I sat down with moral philosopher and future doxing victim, Dr.
Speaker:Tim Dean.
Speaker:It's the case these days that a lot of people on the left
Speaker:see any kind of criticism.
Speaker:of their methods as a criticism of their goals.
Speaker:And that makes the kind of discourse and the dialogue that we're having really
Speaker:aggressive and quite corrosive as well.
Speaker:So why didn't calling Trump supporters racist and sexist help
Speaker:the Democrats win the election?
Speaker:I think that if you call a bunch of people sexist or racist, but they
Speaker:don't believe that they are sexist or racist all it's gonna do...
Speaker:is get them to rally around their own tribe and gather together and fight
Speaker:back, and that's exactly what we saw.
Speaker:I mean, how would you feel if I said you're entrenched in white privilege?
Speaker:I was gonna raise that, actually, cause we are two, two white men.
Speaker:Traditionally, the left were in favor of things like, you know, world peace,
Speaker:equality for all, lots of lovely things.
Speaker:How is it the left is taking that sort of utopia and packaging it in a way that
Speaker:makes me want to swallow my own face?
Speaker:The way some people on the left have been thinking has changed.
Speaker:They're looking for any kind of signal that underneath...
Speaker:You're actually a write off.
Speaker:And so, one slip of language, one slip of behavior, and that shows
Speaker:that you're in the bad camp, and you're just suddenly excluded.
Speaker:So the left lack nuance, they're too reactive to criticism
Speaker:and morally puritanical.
Speaker:Anything else?
Speaker:Well, why don't we talk about identity politics?
Speaker:Yeah!
Speaker:Let's talk about that.
Speaker:The goals are absolutely noble, but one of the problems of identity politics is
Speaker:it breaks off these groups into these silos, into these kind of knowledge
Speaker:silos, and it stifles the possibility of engagement between those kinds of silos.
Speaker:So Tim, I want the left to win, you've got a beard, you obviously
Speaker:want the left to win as well.
Speaker:What can we do to stop losing the big battles and start generating
Speaker:some genuine systemic change?
Speaker:We've got to move beyond words, we've got to get practical.
Speaker:We can join a political party, even better, start a new political party.
Speaker:Basically, just stop being some outraged, virtue signalling prats.
