In this episode, Brandie opens up about her experience within a commercial cult operating under the guise of a multi-level marketing (MLM) scheme. She reflects on the allure of belonging and empowerment that initially drew her in, and the eventual disillusionment that came with realising the manipulative dynamics at play. Brandie explores the guilt, fear, and loss of autonomy that many, especially young mothers face in these high-control environments. Her journey of leaving the MLM world and rebuilding her sense of self offers a powerful reminder of the importance of self-forgiveness, critical awareness, and community support in reclaiming one’s identity beyond coercive systems.

Who Is Brandie?

Brandie is a student psychotherapist in clinical supervision, and MLM recovery advocate. She believes everyone deserves freedom of mind, so she speaks out about abuses of power and coercion perpetrated by MLM scams.

Connect With Us

• Find out more about Flipping The Pyramid
• Connect with Brandie over on Substack or Instagram

• You can find out more about Sam on her website – www.anchoredcounsellingservices.com.au
• To connect with Sam on Instagram – @anchoredcounsellingservices
• Want to contact with Sam about the podcast or therapy? Use this contact form.
• Also check out The Religious Trauma Collective

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture, and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Hey there and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control occult communities, and are deconstructing their faith.

Foreign I'm your host, Sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained.

Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is beyond the surface. Welcome.

Brandie, thanks for joining me.

Thank you for having me.

I am excited about this episode.

I was telling you just before I hit record that you are going to be the first episode of its kind and I'm not going to do any spoilers for people listening just yet, but you are going to be the first of that.

And so I'm excited to have something a little bit different, but also that I think will be really relatable for a lot of listeners and to see some crossovers between what they're used to hearing on my podcast and what are going to talk about. So I'm grateful to have you here to start. Where in the world are you?

At the moment I'm in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

Beautiful. What's the weather there like?

We are crossing over between winter into spring, hence why I'm a little nasly cuz like the weather change is not fun over here. What's it like there?

We are going from summer into fall and it's been the most beautiful fall this year. It's been really warm and pleasant. Yeah.

Oh, lovely. Beautiful. Okay. I like to start these episodes with a super broad and vague question, which is where does your story start?

I love that and I knew that was your question and I and I should have had an answer prepared.

It's fine, Mar. I remember when I recorded my own Episode and I had it asked to me and I was like, I know that's the question, but I still know how to answer it.

Okay.

Feeling. Yeah, a lot of feelings.

Yeah. I mean, it's a huge time of change. What was going on at that point that you.

And what was going on at that point that makes you feel like that's where the story starts?

That was the biggest transition I've ever experienced as a human, where I had read everything I could get my hands on about childbirth and about babies trying to prepare, trying to foolishly think that I could fully prepare and therefore control this experience, which I would realize would be wildly different than how I expected it from the birth to the baby rearing. Yeah, I found it to be quite isolating. I felt that nobody talks. I mean, nobody talks about so many things.

Nobody talks about what it's like to be elderly either. Nobody also talks about being a first time parent in the truth. And culturally there's this expectation, unrealistic expectation that I.

And, and shoes that I was trying to fill, which were absolutely impossible. So I felt like I was floundering and I felt like I wasn't measuring up and I felt very isolated.

Where did you turn to?

Well, great question. So eventually I ended up finding a particular style of parenting and parenting expert.

That seemed to make things feel easier in that it was normalizing a lot of what I was experiencing. A lot of the books say babies should be sleeping through the night by four months old and things like that, that made me feel like kids.

And I know that's insane.

Well, and in the mom groups and in the, you know, programs, it was really a badge of honor to have your baby sleeping through the night. And I now know just how no matter what you decide to do, everybody is incredibly stressed out and struggling.

But I found, I found some material that told me that, no, it's completely normal for babies to wake up through the night and this is why they're waking up and there's. It's beneficial to. They would say, parent your baby to sleep. If you're, if you need to rock your baby to sleep, that's okay. It's actually beneficial.

And I was like, oh, okay. Because I thought I was doing everything wrong. So that, that was quite a hook.

And there is a lot of, you know, there's always truth to the hook as well. So I wasn't doing anything wrong. And I am also putty now for, for influence.

Yeah.

If that makes sense.

Absolutely. And, and I imagine that sort of like hook and influence is something that we will continue talking about.

But what was it like, what was it that got you hooked in and what were you hooked into? Like.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

So prior to my son being born, I worked in human resources for a fitness club chain and it was quite, it's quite a high demand workplace, I would say, in that my hours were 50 hours a week minimum and I did a lot of traveling for my job and my husband at the time was, I was, I had the salary and benefits and he did not yet.

Right.

So his work was more precarious. And so following this style of parenting where I'm, you know, I've, I've given up on trying to get him to sleep through the night.

I'm leaning in to, you know, this baby LED style. And it's, and it's, and I'm less stressed and I'm more stressed because I, how am I going to go back to work? And even doing.

So what do I make after child care? What do I, what am I actually bringing home? And it didn't make sense. It was like nothing. And I, and I was like, I can't make this make sense.

That's the unfortunate capitalist culture that I'm living in here where it would be nice if we had more supports, but we didn't. So I couldn't make it make sense. And I thought maybe there's a way I can earn money from home.

The magic words, isn't it making money from home? I mean, we talk about working from home now, but it's like a different language now than it used to be. And a lot of people don't actually know this.

About my own story, which is I was part of an MLM for a little while and I was actually just really at it. But like the magic words of like, being able to work from home is just like, you know, it's like a diamond in the rough. Right.

Like it's what you want to hear. And it's, you know, I work with a lot of religious trauma, so.

And I see a lot of religious trauma and I see a lot of Christian women, particularly in the US falling into these places as well because they want to make money, but they need to be able to do that from home whilst they're child rearing. And so what did, what about those words would just felt like I need to do that.

Well, I, I want to like bookmark put a little bookmark on the Christian aspect. And I hope we can come back to that because it's super important. But I just thought, you know, I. I actually wasn't looking at MLMs at first.

I was thinking, like, maybe I can do. Maybe I can take some certifications. Do you know, is really coming out of the fitness environment. I was really into wellness, which is a nice.

That's a nice intersection there with the mlm. So I was like, what can I do? I was like, literally taking to the Internet, what can I do?

And I found that my favorite parenting guru actually had a coaching program to coach family health and nutrition. So I was like, oh, my gosh, perfect, because I already trust this person and they've already saved my sand as a parent. So, yeah, I. I took.

Attended the webinar, learned more about the program and the cost and the time commitment and all of that. Signed up, took. Took the. The training and bought tons of workbooks and promotional materials to start my new business as a. I feel.

I feel really naive in retrospect. I was really idealistic and really hard working. Like, really gave my all. I truly didn't know what being an entrepreneur was really about. And I. And.

And one thing I should add is I would much later, like, after I got out of this whole mess, learned that I have adhd, I got a diagnosis late in life, and I do believe that there. That there is some social nativity. I don't know how to pronounce that. That. That someone like me truly takes people at their word. And that's not.

That's not being stupid. Although there is still some shame that I carry. I know that if I'm to talk to myself like a friend, I know that it's not stupidity. It is.

It's idealist idealism.

Yeah.

So I, Yeah. Nobody's signed. Nobody's banging on my door asking to come to my workshops or get coached by me.

So I'm like, oh, okay, okay, okay, back to the drawing board. What am I gonna do? And I thought, well, also, this. This parenting guru also sells a supplement. And. And I can I get a.

And I get a package in the mail from.

From the daughter of this doctor inviting me to be part of their mission, which is to inspire healthy living around the world and earn a residual income. And it fits right in with this coaching. It fits in perfectly.

Yeah.

So there was other, like, MLMs were pretty big in my community at that time because I was in that demographic of young mother, which is the most preyed upon of Course. And there was a woman who drove a white Mercedes in my, in my building from Arbonne. So pitch it. People were pitching around.

So I already had my spidey senses up for that. But I also had this trust in like. Well, he is, has a thriving medical practice, author of bestselling books.

Yeah.

His daughters are reps. So why would he recommend this to them? And this is where the Christianity comes into play.

Yep.

Because the worldview is that this is just a little fun money for you to have some fun and be home with your babies.

Yeah, yeah.

There's no sense of, of labor exploitation or anything like that because the man is who's expected to do that.

Yeah.

So I didn't realize any of that at this time.

Yeah. I mean, and, and it's so well hidden anyway that why would you question it or realize it or notice it at the time?

Because it looks great and it looks flashy and it looks like it's going to be supportive and help you gain the freedom and the success that you are wanting. Right.

And a sense of purpose and the community.

Yes.

So community validating my choices.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so like, you know, you mentioned, you know, all of the webinars and the books and the supplements and things like that.

I think one of the biggest things that I think a lot of people don't necessarily realize is what investing in yourself and investing in this business looks like on a very practical financial level. And so what was the impact of that?

Because, you know, it's being pitched to typically like people who are, you know, first time moms or mothers in general. And it's not as though it's being pitched to rich people a lot of the time. But like what does that investment look like practically as well?

Yeah, that's a really good question.

I, I also, it brings in the, the aspect of privilege here as well because I was, because my husband, who was precariously employed, ended up becoming securely employed. It enabled, that enabled me to go on as long as I could have.

So a lot of people leave maybe sooner because they can't access the credit and that other things that ultimately meant that over the course of a 10 year span I would end up spending.

When I calculated all of the expenses that are required to go all in, which you were told is the way to do it, is go all in and believe it ended up being $115,000 over the course of that time.

Oh my goodness.

So yeah, so there was a time where I was making an income of 3,000 to maybe one month, I may have made close to 4,000 Canadian, but there was many, many years where I was making less the minimum wage and spending more than I was making.

Yeah.

So by the time I reached that peak during the pandemic, which of course was where all the MLMs were exploiting all of the vulnerabilities going on, that was where I hit the peak. And inevitably that would have crumbled like quicksand anyways, as it is across the board, as we're seeing.

But I also hit a burnout and that's when I ended up having to take a break and that's when I ended up having to leave, which was. My husband found very frustrating timing because I was finally. He was like, this is back pay. Like, you take this. This. I was like, I can't.

Can't associate anymore.

Yeah.

When, when you first started this process and joined, I guess, and started doing all of the selling and all of the things, what was expected of you whilst you were in it?

Okay, so we had a daily method of operation. It's called dmo, where there was your. We had worksheets. Actually, I want to. Is it okay if I, like pull one up?

Yeah.

So I'm getting all the numbers right.

Because it's just like with all these things, there's so much to keep track of, which is how they make your brain explode and not have room for anything else.

Yeah.

So we had a dmo and. And I will tell you exactly it. Got it. I got it.

Okay.

2010 5:1 success formula. So each month you invite 20 people to events. So you have your calendar, and your calendar should be full of events.

So if you're not making money, they'll say, show me your calendar and I'll show you your paycheck. So I, being very specific, ADHD brained person, I would do exactly what I was told. Yet. Yet I. It is. It is an insurmountable amount of work.

So no matter what, you always feel like you're still not doing enough. So you have your calendar, it's filled with events. What are the events? They are events that you are hosting.

They are events that you're plugging into that other people are hosting. And they're on a variety of topics, basically picking on different vulnerabilities that people may have. So there might be an event on.

There might be an autism event and an autoimmune event and a cancer event and a homeschooling mom's event, for example. See, like typical month. And a business event during COVID our business Events were called Wait for it. Maybe you were born for such a time as this.

Oh my gosh.

So we got the events.

That sounds very like eerily similar to like every evangelical slogan I've ever heard.

Yeah. Oh yeah, it's very evangelical, which I did not know I was joining a commercial church, I guess.

Yeah.

So each month you invite 20 people to the event. So anytime you're meeting someone, you're like, which one are you? You're boxing questions, trying to figure out what would be the best match.

So every day you're calling six people.

Yeah.

Two customer follow ups, two business follow ups and two prospect follow ups.

So people that you've maybe sent information about the products and you're following up the customer follow ups, you might be like doing a survey on their satisfaction. You're engaging them. I'm the kind of person that when I call somebody it's going to be an hour long thing.

Like I don't know how to get off the phone really easily succinctly. So this is how, this is one example of how it's just unattainable. So I would do a lot of messaging like, like DMS or voice clipping.

I found that to be a hack that would allow me to be able to get everything I needed to get done. So that, that is the, the daily method of operation.

And then you've got the big in person events and so you've got the conference which happens twice a year which if you, you need to show up and be a leader. And then there's like the regional events. So you got to be a leader and get an Airbnb and get your team to go and cover it.

And those are, you know, some of the other expenses that are just adding on.

Yeah, I mean I have like so many thoughts about the amount of work all of that is. But the.

I just feel like the irony is the biggest thing that stands out to me of like this is being given to like, like being present with your children.

Yes.

I was like, how on earth are you ever being present with your child or your children whilst you are having to do like that's sometimes more work than a full time job is is thing. And it's 24 7. Like you are always having to be on, always on.

And I didn't even mention the content creation and the exploitation of your children to be unpaid spokespeople for this commercial cult.

Yeah.

Which is a whole part of, you know, one piece of the moral injury when you realize at the end of is. And. And though how. How it's how they get away with this because it is constant. Like, can you.

I'm sure you can imagine actually me talking to people and always having an agenda on your mind of like evangelizing.

Yeah.

Or just pulling information to then use.

Yeah.

So.

So it's always on your mind. It becomes your full identity. But you're not working. You are part of a mission. So it is all consuming.

And the boundaries between life and it are just one big glob that you can't discern where it starts and where it ends. So.

And did that recruitment come naturally to you? Like, was that a natural part of your personality or did that feel forced?

A natural part of my personality is. And.

And thank goodness I decided to go down the path of becoming a psychotherapist because the unconditional positive regard comes very naturally to me. So I do see people. And I think, you're amazing. You're amazing. You're amazing. And that part was a strength.

Like, I love you have a post about what are the super skills that you got from. And I'm like, well, yeah, I mean that would be one. Graphic design was another one. Could make a me. I can make a good flyer on canva.

Yeah, I mean like, and I think there's also. I'm curious though, because there's a difference between being a natural like people person interested in people, curious about who they are, and.

And then having to take it to another level of using that for your advantage as like. I mean, I guess there is like an element where you sort of say like you want it to be their advantage as well.

But I mean there's a level of like seeing and being with someone and then using that to exploit them, essentially. And, and I remember like, you know, I talk a lot about the fact that like evangelizing, I love people, but evangelizing did not come naturally to me.

I didn't want to have to convert people. And so whilst the requirement was there, the inclination to feel like I could tell people what to do was not necessarily strong.

And so what was that like for you?

Yeah, I. So those events that I went to religiously were. Were quite indoctrinating.

So I did believe, I really did believe that I was part of something that was saving lives. And I really did believe that our products could prevent cancer. I believe that our products could help people who had Cancer.

I believe that they would help prevent Covid because they showed us a lot of high emotion. They had a lot of experts and doctors. So they, they use the appeal to appeal to. What's the logical fallacy where you're appealing to the expert?

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

And like literally there would. There was a film that they showed repeatedly. So we'd watch the same thing multiple times, which I think there often is a lot of repetition in cults.

Yeah.

Which was called what if and it was like what? And it would have like a little girl in a hospital bed. Like a real, like real people that are really part of this company.

What if I didn't call my friend who had just found out she had lupus and. And so on and there's music playing and like it would get.

And it's playing on this big screen and, and then we'd be instructed like to now like, you know, do the brave thing and, and reach out to the people. Because how, how are you living with yourself knowing what you know and not sharing it to the people who need it the most?

Yeah.

So I did think, I mean there was, I will say though, there was certain people that I thought, I just can't see them like possessing the qualities to make an income doing this. But I still think that they should be on the product and maybe they should sign up for the discount.

Right.

So that even if I didn't see the person crossing the stage, I saw them being part of the community in some way, shape or form.

So customer, not worker. It sounds like you saw them in some, in some respect being involved. Yeah, right.

As you're talking, the crossovers are just like palpable between like religious cults and secular cults. I think people don't necessarily realize the same tactics are being used.

You know, as you're talking, I was like, oh, just like good old fashioned, like emotional manipulation and guilt tripping to try and like tug on those heartstrings that you have the answer that you have the truth that you have the saving method and how dare you not tell somebody else about it that that falls on you. That's such a heavy burden to hold for anybody.

Yeah.

What. I mean, what were they promising?

Because like that's talking about, I guess what they're promising other people in that we've got this like incredible saving life saving thing for you. What were they promising you in terms of like financially, personally, like emotionally? What was being involved in this community?

What was that being promised to you as?

So they're the top ranking leader was the big carrot that was dangled and it was called national marketing Director. But then they would add like three levels more than that, as they always do because they got to keep that goalpost perpetually out of reach.

Yeah.

So I as you know, like there's always a new milestone to be going for.

So at one point, for example, there was a, like a leadership training that if you hit a certain volume and you're had a certain team structure with people beneath you at certain levels and all these things were met, then you would get part of this leadership training that was led by a very well known we. I tell you off the record after who it was, but everybody knows who this person is. I, I got, I got, I hit the milestone. So I, I won. I won.

So I paid $100 to take this training which is just more. Make more. Make work more meetings more, more things to add to my daily method.

And then I'm trying so hard to legitimize myself as well that I'm taking additional now I got to be master certified coach. So I just so badly wanted to make this, make meaning out of this, make it feel like I hadn't made a huge mistake. But there's that sunk cost fallacy.

So that's what I, I didn't know at the time, but that's what I was up against. So I'm just sinking more into it trying to make this work.

So I get that and then I get the next milestone, the next position and like a few hundred dollars bonus or whatever it was. And, and then you know, the main goal is this national marketing director title.

And as I get closer to it, you know, like I was being told like you are all are already there. You embody a national marketing director. You literally don't need to do anything different. It's just that your numbers have not caught up to you yet.

So just keep going.

Oh boy.

So. So I was. Until I completely, completely burnt out.

Yeah. I mean, and that's what happens when the, the goal posts keep moving. Right. Like they're never in the same spot. They always keep moving and. Yeah.

How would you describe.

I'm sort of going to ask this question as a dual question which is like how would you have described the culture within the organization while you're in it versus now?

How would I describe the culture while I was in it versus now? Okay, so the culture while I was in it. So it was it.

It what I did not know because like in the person the doctor's books, he doesn't talk about Being an evangelical Christian, there is one book that is about like Christian parenting, but it's kind of like hidden. Like you can get it used. I don't think you can buy it new anymore kind of thing.

So I didn't really know that was a big part of the culture until probably the first conference that I went to. And that just seemed to like ramp up. Like that seemed to be bigger and bigger part, you know, where a lot of people.

So the product is called Juice Plus. And so at the conference there'd be a lot of people wearing these shirts that say JC and JP Like Jesus Christ and Jews plus. Like that's all I need.

Oh my gosh.

And they. And then my leader, like my up, up, up, up line, like it was all Christian white women. Like it was just all Christian white women.

I'm so shocked.

And one was like also like a Christian personal development coach who has a program that she would sell to her downline, who are making nothing. And the, the, the dichotomy of like boasting about like what I can do and how I can have, you know, she has this big non profit.

We're gonna go into it. But what I can do because of this company and, and also like selling, like selling programs, additional things. It just blows my mind.

Yeah.

So that, you know, they have prayer breakfast at conference. So it's not mandatory, but you can go to prayer breakfast.

I mean, what happens if you don't go though? Like, are you there?

I actually didn't go to. No, I actually didn't go to prayer breakfast. Yeah.

Things are not mandatory. Like they're still, like, it's still kind of mandatory.

It may have been in different groups. It may have been in different groups. I think that my, like the person who I worked closely with, I think she was a lesser of other evils that I saw.

I shouldn't say evil, but. Yeah, maybe in another team that would have been different. But there was like. I know there was a.

Another person within our lineage that she tried to shield us from because that person was so out there in terms of narcissistic grandiosity and like vampiric energy. So she did try. So I think part of that was not making, you know, the prayer breakfast. Wasn't. I wasn't given any sort of punishment.

Yeah.

Even passive aggressively at all for that.

Were there punishments or like, how was failure and personal responsibility and stuff dealt with? Like were there consequences and punishments? So.

Yeah, well, I would say withholding would probably be the number one. You know, like if you Weren't doing everything, then you might not get the time of day. You, you know, we're not gonna do. We're not gonna.

Like there was an instance, for example, where there was a team member who was really, really frustrated and not seeing success and. And then she was given tasks to do, and if she wasn't doing them, then, you know, we're gon coaching. Not. Not with me.

But I was told, don't spend your time with her anymore. So it was things like that. Like, I would be told, you know, spend your time here, don't spend your time here, because they're not kind of.

They wouldn't say they're not worth your time. But that would be the underlying essence. Yeah, yeah.

Which is very different from like, linking arms and doing this together and accepting you for exactly who you are in a sisterhood and a community and a family and all those other things that are used to get somebody to sign up.

Is that what the community was? Because, I mean, I know what church community is like, you know, pitched as.

And what that belonging looks like is that sisterhood and family and like, we are all in this together, doing life together. Is that the kind of language that.

We know that was exactly verbatim.

Is that the kind of language that is being pitched to you as well?

It was like the doing life together wasn't pitched to me like. Like, because when I was pitched, it was just this envelope in the mail saying, like, you know, we would like you to be on our team.

And then I did the call and got the information, and I said, what's the worst that could happen? I'll sign up. But. But that would then be the language that we would be given upon recruiting other people on, which was done through.

It's called connection calls, where you have a prospect, you say, I want. I really want you to meet my mentor. I've told her about you. You love bomb them.

Yes.

And then you bring them on and you're like, you're just love bombing them and asking them questions and like, well, I just think you're amazing. I just love for you to be part of what we're doing.

And in fact, I want you to meet so and so and try to book them on another kind of connection relational call.

Yeah.

So I would say, you know, the. The relationship that. That was definitely a part of a part of it. And when you said, like, what kind of consequences too?

And I said withholding the other thing would be like fomo. So anytime there was any sort of event, you know, like going Live and posting in our group to show everyone what they're missing by not being there.

Yeah.

Right. So great. And you should really make sure you get to the next one.

And so you would feel like, oh, you know, if you're somebody who can't front that you feel kind of shitty.

Yeah. And. Yeah. And so, like, what impact did that culture have on your sense of self? Because, like, a lot of those consequences are not. They are.

They're like personal ones. Right. Like, they're the ones that you sit with.

Not necessarily ones that are, like, they're not necessarily real life, like, consequences in terms of, you know, actions being taken against you, but, you know, they have an impact on your sense of self and your self worth.

Yeah. So when I started with that, with that company, I was. I would have called myself more of like a new age woo Woo person.

I was like, into like, Louise Hay affirmations and the Secret and stuff like that. That was how I was coming in. And then the Christian evangelical isn't that much different in a lot of ways.

It's just different.

So, yeah, so as I was going along, like, my husband is very much the opposite. So I asked him about that pretty recently. Like, how did you.

Because I've deconstructed from so much like, like, after that, then it was like questioning so many other things for me, even before I got in, like, the manifestation and all of that. And I said, how did you, like, because he was always. He's always been very scientific, pragmatic.

I would sometimes feel, like, pessimistic and, you know, because I'd be like, we just need to, like, it's just gonna happen. The universe has our back. You know, it'd be like that. You'd be like, yeah, okay. So I was like, how did you deal with that? And, yeah, it was.

It was romantic and it's. And it was, you know, it was kind of fun. Like, it was. It is intoxicating to kind of be around that energy sometimes. Right.

So he's like, I love the evolution. Wouldn't change it for the world. We can have, like, deeper conversations and all of that is great.

But anyway, so at a point I bring that up because at a point I was falling into. I was definitely falling down that, like, pipeline into evangelical Christianity. And it was a little bit like, what's happening?

Like, because he's an atheist. So now I'm like part of a prayer group chat, and I'm like, yeah, yeah. So that. And that was get. Again, like, during the pandemic.

That's when that was all ramping up, like so many things. It was just a perfect storm. Storm for. For a lot of conspiracies and Christianity and all of that to just amplify.

Yeah.

So then when I burnt out and I. And I was first. There was like, a good year that I was just depressed. I didn't know.

I. I didn't know why I felt so tired and why I just felt like, I just can't do it. I just can't go. I just can't do that anymore. I don't know. I just felt depressed. That was it. And. And then. Then I.

When I started to learn about cults, just. It would just be like, I. I watched a documentary and then I was like, oh.

And then I read more, and I'm reading and I'm listening to podcasts and putting the pieces together, and then I'm like, I need to learn everything about this.

This is.

Then I'm getting my sense of self back and energy back, because I can make sense of it now.

Yeah.

The figuring out who there was such a disorientation of.

So that would be the impact on my sense of self, where I think the hardest piece was the conspiratorial and spiritual beliefs, like deconstructing out of that, like, that was probably the most difficult.

Yeah.

Yeah. Was.

Was the burnout what led you out? Or were there other things that, like, cracked that system, so to speak?

It was. You know, what's so weird is before I even took the month off, I watched the documentary for Lularoe just on Amazon prime, and I.

And I. I didn't even. I didn't even see it. Even watching that. I didn't even see it. All I could see was how different we were because we don't have stockpiles of stuff.

Yeah.

Like, they do. But there was really. Actually a lot of things that were the same, like the celebrities that come to the conference and all of that stuff.

There was so much that was the same, but it was like I couldn't even see it. I could not even see it right in front of my face.

Until then there was nothing except for the fact that it was like the pandemic was so intense with quarantine, lockdown, my husband home. We're all home, and I'm working harder than I ever had before.

And I'm like, oh, my gosh, we're all on our screens and we're all in the same roof and we're all divided. Like, we need to take a break and just shut it all down for a month and just like, let's just reconnect.

Yeah.

That was the end. The doctor who is promoting connected parenting, he talks about that about kids on devices. Not about moms on devices, but about kids on devices.

Yeah.

And I can't just take my kids off the devices if I'm not on the device.

Yeah.

So we all got to do this because if they're. If I'm ripping their iPad away, they're going to be looking to me even more, and I need to be available to help them.

Like, you know, so that was what started. It was. We agreed as a family to take 30 days off. I deleted my social media apps for a month and. And then connect.

And the months went by so fast, and it was immediately an improved dynamic in my home. And I was like, I can't go back. Like, the idea of going back was just horrifying to me. Just the. Just the disconnect. Yeah.

So I told map lines I need to take more time. I. I'm not sure how much longer I need, but I'm not ready. And they were like, you know, I. The.

The up, up, up line with the Christian Personal Development Program said, this is like. She called it a slingshot sabbatical. I. I went through this too. I took some time back, and then it was like, propelled me forward. Yeah.

And I was like, slingshot sabbatical. Okay. I like that. Okay. That's what's gonna happen. And. And my.

The person I worked with directly was actually an up, up line, because a lot of times people just don't. Don't do anything, and then you're reaching up for mentorship.

She was like that, you know what the hardest time for me when life at home was most demanding and I needed to homeschool for a bit and is when I ended up making the most money. So they were just like. They were just sweet saccharine syrup. And then I. They sent me a gift box as well, with, like, bath stuff.

And they got like, my downline to, like, to. To put, like to contribute to this. So my poor downline is, like, helped to pay for this gift box. And when.

And I remember when that gift box came in and I hadn't. Hadn't really realized, like, I hadn't put things together. But the.

When the box arrives and I see who it's from, I felt nauseous, which is a sign from my body that knows what my brain isn't ready to know.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're like. They're using your.

Your break As a way to benefit the, like, that whole spiritual bypassing silver lining it to like, make it, make it something that is worth your while but is still going to like, make you money is, is just like, I mean, it's insane, but it's strategic and it works.

Yeah. And then, and then I, I, I was writing a lot, like, write.

And I was just writing essays about my life and I was getting really, like, really exploring who I am. And I was sending some of my essays to my uplines, to the up up and the up up, up up.

And they were, weren't responding in the way that I thought, like that a, that a really good friend or sister would, which they'd be like, wow, moving. And I'm see like, you know, like hearing it and responding and reflecting back. It was like crickets. And I'm like, it just.

That was, that was a crack as well. That widened the crack.

Yeah.

Because then you're starting to see, oh, I, you know, I'm not. They don't really care about, like, me, me, me. They care about what I represent. Meaning another leader on the team. Another.

Yeah, it's the transactional element.

Yeah. Yeah.

Was there part of you that was like, as you were sort of starting the cracks, there's more cracks forming. They're widening. Was there a part of you that was worried or fearing leaving this community and this group and this program?

And what did actually leaving look like?

So as I started to learn more, I was kind of talking to my husband about leaving and he, he was saying, this is like, how many years you worked for less than minimum wage spending? Actually not less than you, but literally paid to work.

Yeah.

At the end of the day, you were paying them to provide, perform labor. So just be quiet, do the minimum and, and collect the paychecks for as long as it can go on until it dries out? You don't owe them anything.

They promised you residual income. You're here now, collect that residual income. And, and I was. And then, you know, another month will go by. And it was killing me.

I was feeling like sick. And, and when the 10th of the month would come in and the money would get paid, deposit my account, I'd be like, like.

And I, I was like, this is like. Eventually I thought, I just need to show him that I can, like, make up the money somewhere else. And I said, I will babysit children.

I'll do anything to just quit. And he was like, okay, okay. I, I'm like, I see it now. I can see it on your face. I See it, I hear you do what you need to do. So then I, I did quit.

Yeah.

Because what money represent to you every time it came in, like what were you.

It just, to me it represented all the people that I had left there, that I had left in there, that I had recruited in and they were just still there, just feeling like they were failing and not going anywhere and, and I wanted to tell it, I wanted to tell them what I knew and I couldn't, I was gagged as long as I was accepting that money and it didn't, it felt morally wrong. I had learned things and, and I felt like I had to correct my wrongs. I was well intentioned, but now I know better and now I need to tell people.

Yeah.

And I couldn't. Obviously that was hard because I couldn't go call people that were in the company. I was scared of getting into trouble.

So I figured I would just put on. I knew people would be hate stalking me. So I thought I'll just start casually, I'll just. Let's be honest.

So I started to sub stack and I started putting all my thoughts there and I knew people would be easily able to find it.

And one of those things was an open letter to my team because when I did let them know, I basically said nothing except if you want to talk, I'm always happy to hear from you.

Yeah.

And people that I did talk to, I would just ask them how they were doing and if they said it's not really going good and I'm starting to wonder and I'm starting to doubt, then I would validate them and, and then let them know where they could find more information about and that they're not crazy. They're absolutely right.

Yeah.

So some of them are still there just for the community. Which is really sad in my opinion because it's not an actual community. It's a, it's a, it's a leeching system.

Yeah, it's. I mean it's conditional community.

It's like based on what you can give them as opposed to what you know, who you actually are and those relationships. But it's so hard because you don't realize it's conditional until you're actually realizing the impact of those conditions. It's so hard.

And also. Sorry, I just want to mention one thing about fear induction because there is so much fear around.

Like the product is used to induce fear of the world of toxins, of, of lack of nutrition, of nutrient, like you know, blah, blah, blah. And that's the part that keeps people stuck into. Is they're literally afraid of what will happen if they stop taking the product.

Yeah.

So they've got the conditional community, but they've also got like, the fear attached to their health.

It sounds like the equivalent of, like, you know, a fear of spiritual consequences or a fear of hell. Like, it's like that sort of, you know, fear indoctrination that happens. What was that like for you?

Because, I mean, you obviously had the same fear indoctrination as well, around products. And. And so what was unlearning that like for you?

Yeah, well, one of the things was, you know, I was saying with Lula Rich, how I said, we don't stockpile products. We actually do. And. And so one day I realized, like, because we're buying it for people that couldn't afford it because.

Because you believe that you're saving their life. So there were people that I would buy it for or that I would make arrangements because they couldn't get a credit card.

So I would just say that they could eat transfer me, which they wouldn't always do, and things like that. So I had, you know, when you're giving samples to people and.

And you're encouraged to use the shake mix to make baked goods with, so you're overusing the protein powder, so you're having to buy double stock of that. So I bought. I did have boxes and boxes of stuff, and I was, I. I was scared to stop.

But then as I was learning about it, I was getting angry to see the bottles. So I was at the same time angry at that being part of. Tied to my identity and scared to stop.

But ultimately, because money was such a concern, I decided to box everything up and return what was unused and unopened. And I had, like, these boxes I brought to the post office, returned it, got a credit. Unfortunately, my credit card was charged a couple more times.

Mysteriously, I had to cancel a credit card because it got charged twice after I canceled everything and returned everything. And I had developed disordered eating.

So because they have an eating, you know, part of the control, part of the behavior control is controlling your diet.

And so there was a lot of fear indoctrination, not just with what could happen if you weren't taking these products, but with certain foods like dairy, gluten, sugar, you know, intermittent fasting is part of the. The regimen. And.

So.

I, I was really like, dairy particularly was a hard one for me because they, they had done so much of, like, how it's inflammatory. And then I'm Also, like learning this and then teaching this, which is in ingraining it deeper into me. And.

And I'm like, I'm in my 40s and I should probably. My husband's like, like, you need to care about your bones and, you know, calcium. Yeah. So he was encouraging me to start having dairy again. And I.

And I agreed to buy, like, plain yogurt, plain grass fed yogurt. And I was like, I'll never forget.

I was actually scared to start consuming yogurt, that it would make me become inflamed and I would have joint pain and. And, you know, and then it would continue on. So now I'm obsessed with yogurt every day. So I really thoroughly got over it. Nothing bad happened.

And then I had blood work and my practitioner was like, this is like great blood work. And I walked away from that going.

And this is where I'm gonna swear, if I had been in the company at this time with these results, I would have been shutting down from the rooftops. How these products resulted in this perfect blood work where I have great iron, vitamin D levels, spot on. All these things. And it wasn't anything.

And that's when I. I got really angry, actually.

Like, I was happy and validated and angry because you're so indoctrinated to bring everything that's good in your life and connect it right back to the company and product.

I mean, was it. I talk about anger so much with my clients and so, like, was that anger validating or were you terrified of it at the time? Because I love.

Anger is such a powerful emotion.

Yeah, I would definitely say validated. The other. Really, the other thing that was one of the most anger inducing moments was after I.

Before I had officially resigned, when I was in that depression period, I got a phone call from the head office and they had blocked the number, so it was an unknown caller. And when I answered and it was them, and they were telling me that I qualified for a trip to Mexico after that phone call, I like angry, cried.

I like sobbed because I didn't qualify. They just. They just fudged things so that I could get that invitation so they could suck me back in.

Yeah.

And I worked so hard for so many years and never qualified for anything cool like that, ever. I was always short, Always. So then when I pull away, suddenly I qualify that. That. And because there was no way I was gonna go on that trip.

Yeah.

So, yeah, that was. That was some big anger there.

Yeah.

I mean, like, I almost want to call.

And it was Easter Weekend, ironically. And they called me on Good Friday. Good Friday.

And it's this Christian company and I had to let them know by the Easter Monday if I was going to be going or not. This trip that happens in a month, like.

Yeah, I mean, but I mean even that time pressure is like part of it. Right.

Like there's, there's so many like little tiny things that don't have any seemingly great meaning, but putting them all together just reinforces all of those control tactics that are there to keep you in line and to keep you doing the thing that they want you to do. Right. You know, don't think about it too long or she'll make the decision that we don't want her to make. Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you had also asked me about what the company's like now. Oh yeah. Left and I forgot to answer that.

No, that's okay. Okay. I think I might have asked you like six other questions after. That's my adhd. I'll ask a question and I'll forget.

So it appears that they are, they had some issues with their being deemed a high risk for lending money. So I guess some of their back. They, during the time that I was in, I had no idea, but they had been bought by a Silicon Valley company.

And, and like us reps who are like owning our business, we're not even told this.

Yeah.

So apparently like I didn't find this out until after.

So while I'm in, they're bought by Silicon Valley company and then now they've been bought by a company that I guess their job is to like sell off parts and try to make it work. And it's not the, you know, caring about you, like a member of the family type of idea that's being sold. So I feel like it's only a matter of time.

But that's just my opinion based on my Internet sleuthing.

Yeah.

It, it's. Yeah. I mean, as far as MLMs go, there are a lot of flashier ones and, and, and you know, it's rinky dink.

The appeal is not quite there anymore.

I mean, I hear that in Australia it's pretty, I don't know, people are promoting it.

The, the Juice plus Australia Instagram account is pretty funny because they did a one reel that was like where all these reps are like reading a cue card and it says, is Juice plus a cult? No, cults are illegal or.

No.

Is it a pyramid scheme? No, pyramid schemes are illegal. And then they're just saying like their reaction, it's Supposed to be light hearted, but it is.

Yes, the comment section is pretty funny on that one.

I mean, and what was it like for you when you started using language like MLM and pyramid scheme and commercial cult and like all of this language? What impact did that have on you?

Yeah, I wrote a sub stack about that early on because I, I found the, like, once I had the word commercial cult, I was like, oh, it just all made sense to me. Like, it made sense to me how this works, how, how a person is attracted to this kind of a situation, why they stay as long as they do.

It was just incredibly validating.

So I felt seen and yeah, it was empowering to be able to have that label and then of course hear other people in commercial cults and have all these things in common with like. Yep, yep, yep. Me too, me too, me too, me too.

Yeah, yeah. What was, I mean, what was the emotional impact of having the words I was in a cult?

Because that's really different for a lot of people, I think, being, you know, having that language.

I mean, for me I, I find it really helpful. I find it really helpful for me.

I find that most people don't really get it because they still associate living in a commune, they don't realize how cults run online. And that's something that needs to be more understood because it's only going to get, it's only going to increase. Only is increasing.

Yeah.

You know, people are getting radicalized online every day. So that misconception needs to be corrected because people had no idea.

My husband, my mom, my best friends had no idea what was happening in those zoom rooms. Just like, I gotta, I gotta go on a call. They, they have no idea. And I just have to watch this video and I have to attend this event.

And they're just seeing the pictures, but they're not, they're not understanding the process of what's actually happening.

Yeah. What impact did it have on.

And this is, I'm sort of like jumping back a little bit because it just sparked in my head because a lot of people have this image of cults in that you, you typically. It requires you to cut off your family and friends. Right. And so like what impact did it have on your relationships with your family and friends?

Yeah, so there was a lot, you know, just like every other group. Some, you know, some people don't get it. They don't know what they don't know, love them where they're at.

But there's like, it wasn't like, cut them out of your Life.

But it's like love them where they're at in a pious sort of like they don't know what they don't know you, like, us versus them, you know, gentle us versus them kind of languaging, which really, it was effective that hearing that message again and again and again did really make me feel like I was part of something and everybody else was on the outside of it and I would. I was quite disassociated. Like, if I look at pictures of or videos of myself, my eyes are completely different.

I was showing my best friend and she was like, whoa. And she, she noticed because during the pandemic, she lived with us in an upper.

We had an upper apartment where we lived and she was divorcing from a 20 year marriage. So we were around each other a lot during the pandemic during lockdown, which was.

Ended up being, I would say, like quite a protective factor for me to have because she's been my best friend since second grade. So she's one of those people that I am myself with.

Yeah. And she knows.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But during those days when we were kind of living together, she, she knew like her, her niece came to visit and said like, do you ever notice Brandy's like kind of checked out like, like her eyes, it's like she's not there. And she's like, oh, well, because I'm a scattered mom, you know, I'm. She's like, that's just her. Like, she didn't, she didn't really see it.

She made excuses for me and we were still connecting as best friends, but now on the other side, and especially when she sees a video or something like that, she's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I see. I definitely see. I see that now. And so with like family, you know, I'm pitching. I literally and pitching because.

Or families legitimately asking like, did you think that product that you're selling, do you think that would help me with my low iron? And I'm like, cha Ching, yes. And then I'm like going into the mode, right?

And then I'm following up with my freaking aunt and then she's saying, ultimately no. Or I had another aunt who was an organic farmer and we had like aeroponics garden towers and she was considering buying like 12 of them.

That was going to be like a huge sale for me and it would have been great for pictures and all of that. And then when she ultimately was like, no, because I had a connection call I set her up on, she could see the bullshit she could smell the bullshit.

It would make me feel disconnected from them because I felt like I was being rejected when it wasn't me who was being rejected, it was the company and, and the weirdness that I was part of that was actually being rejected.

Yeah.

So it made me feel sad, it made me feel alienated. It made me feel one step removed. And I have had to repair those relationships. And I'm lucky that I have.

I'm lucky that my mom has always been a support and that my husband and I have been married for so long and that I have my best friends in second grade and my other best friend since high school. Yeah, those are all things that, that helped me a lot.

And, and I know that not everyone has those kinds of supports, which makes, you know, adds that moral injury. For sure.

Yeah. Yeah. How do you feel about MLMs now? And what, how do you see them progressing? Like, and like, do you just see them getting worse?

Do you just see them being more covert? Because, like, I think they're a little less obvious sometimes than they used to be. But how do you see it?

I, I can smell it. I. My opinion on them is that they should be made, they should be banned.

There is no such thing in the history of ever of an MLM that doesn't actually meet the requirement of a pyramid scheme.

However, as the government is going the direction that it's going, I think feel that we're getting farther away, in a surprising turn of events, we're getting farther away from that being able to happen. And it's, and it has to do with, you know, government political lobbying and things like that.

So it's going to be, it's going to be a codependent enabling relationship in terms of, you know, the powers that be, in my opinion.

And so that's why advocacy is so important because that's going to be the only way that we can help arm consumers because the people at the top don't have the ovaries to do it.

Yeah, yeah.

And, and I, I guess I want to ask a question because you hinted at the beginning when I like made a comment about it, that, that you were hoping we chat about it. What link do you think this has with like the. I mean, and obviously I'm sort of referring.

We have it here in Australia in a different flavor, but particularly in the U.S. like, we're obviously seeing the rise of Christian nationalism and, and things like that.

And so what do you see is because I'm sitting here as like a ex Christian going, like, I can see the links between, you know, MLMs and Christian circles. But how do you see those links with the added benefit of you were a part of this for a decade of your life?

How do I see them linked? Like, hopefully I'm answering this the way that you're, the way that makes sense to you, how you phrased it.

But I mean the link that I see is that if you can recognize, recruit particularly young mothers, then that is a perfect tool of oppression because you're keeping them, they're already busy, you're keeping them extra busy, you're ensuring that they stay out of a actual gainful employment, which would give them more independence. So they're, they're more dependent, they're busier and they're not, they don't have the ability to think as clearly.

And, and yeah, I know that those are, that's strong words. Yeah. But that's what I see and believe.

Yeah.

I think I also like, and I've seen this in, you know, circles that I used to run in as well, which is that in really fundamental high control religious spaces, they're also, you know, far more susceptible to that sort of like conspiracy, like very like seemingly extreme views and things like that. And so like, particularly those wellness commercial cults really appeal.

The amount of people in my former former community that are like essential oil as like and that sort of world really appeals to people who are wanting to do things naturally and holistically and.

Yeah, yeah.

And that sort of like very wellness pseudo spiritual lens, I think appeals to that group as well. And they know the language that they want to speak and so they speak that language at them. Right?

Yeah, it's, it's the, the whole identity package and like using. Yeah.

Like, you know, I, I also see, you know, people using Christianity like, like it's affinity fraud when you're kind of like literally going into a church to see.

Scoop them up to say like, you know, because generally if someone was evangelizing at the workplace, I would think in most workplaces it would be told that that's not appropriate. Right.

Yeah.

But here we can do that because that's what we're all about. We're sisters in Christ.

Yes.

So. So that as well.

And then the, another piece like I'm writing, I'm in my final year of school and this year is our concentration topic, research topic.

And what I'm looking at, what I'm really curious about with, like my big question still is how commercial cult involved, like involvement mirrors narcissistic abuse and how that impacts neurodivergent communities a little differently.

Oh, I love it. I love this. I love it because I literally just wrote a sub.

Substack on how my former church, like, of course my ADHD worked for my former church until it didn't. But I love everything about that, so that's exciting. Yeah, yeah.

So if somebody's experienced narcissistic abuse, then this would feel like a really, like, familiar environment.

Yeah.

And.

And also in any type of. So many times I've heard people that are in cults also do MLMs. It's like cults within the cult. Yeah.

And it makes sense because it's all following the same template. It's like you said, it's all the same language.

Yeah.

So I mean, and I talk about this quite a bit in terms of like, you know, even the support for religious trauma and cult recovery, like religious cult recovery is few and far between. Like, we are not a huge group of people, particularly here in Australia.

But I imagine that that support for people coming out of commercial cults is probably even trickier because I've seen some therapists who are also part of these groups and so. Oh, yeah, like the crossover of like the therapeutic world and that sort of like wellness world as well.

I imagine getting support for this coming out of these spaces would be incredibly tricky.

Yeah.

And I found that when I was working with my therapist, I had to spend sessions plural, explaining the structure, the language, like what this is, what an upline is, this is what volume is and how, how we were incentivized and what happened. And like, there was just so much I had to educate on before we could even get to the work of like recovering and healing from what I'd gone through.

So.

Yeah, it's frustrating if you have to teach your therapist about. So. Absolutely. Yeah.

And I mean, before I get to. I sort of finish with a similar question for all of my episodes, but I know that something exists.

And so I, for listeners, tell everybody about Flipping the Pyramid.

Yeah. Thank you. So Flipping the Pyramid is a non profit organization that I started to provide peer support for victims and survivors of commercial cults.

One of our board members is in New Zealand, actually.

Oh, beautiful.

Yeah, yeah, she. She's come out of. She was in Enagic and also in a coaching culture. Yeah, she was in abc. You know, abc, obviously. Yes, the news outlet there.

There was a article that she was in exposing the leader and all that. So I can send that to you if you want to check it out. It's kind of local.

Yeah, absolutely.

So we meet Once a month right now. So it's. It's the second Tuesday evening of, of every month typically in Australia. It's the second Wednesday morning typically.

And the dates are always listed on flippingthepyramid.com beautiful.

And I will pop that in the show notes for people who want to find out more about it. What has it been like for you to be able to provide that support to other people? To sort of like flip that narrative even for yourself?

It's wonderful. Like every month when I have a meeting, I'm always thinking nobody's probably going to come.

And people always come and it's really, it's really, it is validating because I. So many years I would hustle for these stupid events, following up and blah, blah, blah. Now it's like, it's just like build it.

And they come because it's needed, because it's actually needed. Unlike.

Yeah.

Supplement.

Yep. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's. I think, I think peer support is. Is a really powerful avenue for cult recovery.

I think just being able to exist in a space with other people who.

You don't have to exist, educate, who understand the dynamics and the psychological hold that a lot of these organizations have, not having to convince someone else of that would just be a beautiful space that's being created. Imagine it is.

Yes.

Okay. I love to finish these episodes with some encouragement for people.

So what would you say to someone who is living, listening and they think that they might be part of a group like this and they want to leave, but they feel trapped?

Okay. I would say I. I feel that most people in this situation have a tremendous amount of guilt.

And part of the guilt is that they wonder, are the people who got me in or above me, are they bad people and am I going to be letting them down? They've worked so hard for me.

They've done some, they've poured into me, etc, and so I would just, just let them know, you know, that's a complicated piece in terms of are they bad people? Because sometimes the victims become the perpetrators, unfortunately.

But what's most important is you and you know whether or not you are making the kind of impact that you want to have, not the kind of impact that you've been told you should be having. So go easy on yourself. Forgive yourself. Because if you knew what you knew now, you never would have joined.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. And thank you so much for joining me.

Thank you, Sam. It's so nice to get to hang out.

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did.

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