Professor David Reinking is semi-retired with a courtesy appointment as an Adjunct Professor in the University of Georgia's Mary Frances Early College of Education. He serves the department as a consultant, advisor, mentor, and resource, drawing on his diverse past experiences and leadership positions in the field. These include editorships of the field’s two leading journals (Reading Research Quarterly and the Journal of Literacy Research), the presidency of its major research organization (Literacy Research Association), substantial federal funding for research, 10-year service as a department head, and a strong record of peer-reviewed publication.

Included among his interests are: Understanding and developing literacy in digital environments; Formative experiments and design-based research; Theory's role in education research.

Hello listeners.

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Hi, I'm Dr.

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Margaret Vaughn and welcome to

Getting Smarter, a podcast where

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I get to talk with some of the

most transformational thinkers and

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leaders in the field of education,

all in the hopes of getting smarter.

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Join me in listening and learning.

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Welcome to Getting Smarter.

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Today we have the famous Dr.

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David Rankine, who is an established

scholar and leader in the field.

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He has led the literacy field throughout

his career, ranging from international

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leadership positions abroad to editorial

positions of the field's two leading

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journals, Reading Research Quarterly

and the Journal of Literacy Research.

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Dr.

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Rankine has also served as the

lead editor for the Handbook of

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Literacy and Technology, which was

awarded special recognition by the

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National Reading Conference and

the American Library Association.

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Dr.

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Rankine was the president of the

field's main research organization,

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Literacy Research Association, and

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work in the field of literacy,

he was inducted into the Literacy

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Research Association's Hall of Fame.

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He has received substantial

funding to research and support

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literacy, research, and teaching.

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For example, from 1992 to 1997, he was

a principal investigator at the National

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Reading Research Center funded by the U.

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S.

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Office of Education.

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In addition to his amazing leadership,

he has a substantial publication record

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and has led the field in thinking

about the important use of formative

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experiences and other design based

approaches to education research.

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Thank you for talking today.

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How are you today?

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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I'm doing well.

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And thanks, Margaret, for inviting me.

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It's a real pleasure.

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It's a privilege to share some of

the perspectives I acquired, over

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a long and rewarding career as a

teacher and education researcher.

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And I was going to say, I particularly

like the title for your series.

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But getting smarter education is,

is, is all about getting smarter.

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But you know, when I, when I

heard your title, it, it reminded

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me of a, of a quote, and I've

long forgotten who actually said

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it, and maybe you've heard it.

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It goes like this.

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My knowledge is like an island

in a vast sea of ignorance.

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And as my island of knowledge

grows, I get smarter.

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So does the shoreline of my ignorance.

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Oh, I love that.

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It's a more poetic way, I guess,

of saying, the more we know The

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more we realize we don't know.

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So if, if I'm, if I'm helping anybody

get smarter, it's because I've been

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trying for a longer period of time,

but also gives me a humility that there

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are a lot of things I still don't know.

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I love that, David, that

just makes so much sense.

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And I just love this idea

about getting smarter.

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Cause I think we can all

get smarter and, and.

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I love listening to superheroes and giants

like you in the field to help us all get

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a little smarter about some of the work.

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So I've, I've wondered before we

get started, why did you go into

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the field of education and teaching?

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So that was the question I wondered.

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Well, it's a bit, it's a bit complicated.

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I guess I'd like to say that like some

people do, I've always wanted to be

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a teacher or I had some inspirational

teacher, but it really wasn't that way.

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I sort of stumbled into teaching

as a profession and reading

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literacy as my chosen field.

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But I've never regretted that I did.

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And once on that path, I realized

how well suited it really was for me.

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I didn't, I never really knew how

much I wanted to be a teacher until

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I was in a teacher education program.

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Now that might sound a little strange.

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Because what was I doing there if

I didn't want to become a teacher?

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So, there's a little bit of background

that maybe some people can relate

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to or, or might find interesting.

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I was raised in a blue collar family.

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My, my father was a factory worker

at the General Electric Company

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in Fort Wayne where I grew up.

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And so I'm a first

generation college grad.

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And in my extended family,

including three siblings, I'm the

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only one that went to college.

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Let alone got a doctorate.

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Wow, so my family wasn't poor But

there was sort of the strong work

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ethic and I was expected to work if I

for pay for any discretionary money I

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had or to help pay for my way through

college and Even in grade school.

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I started doing odd jobs to earn money

and I did that thing like cleaning out

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refrigerators in an appliance company.

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I used, used refrigerators

that were traded in.

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I was, worked construction, worked

in my dad's factory in the summers.

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And believe it or not, one

summer I drove a big semi truck,

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one of those big gas tankers.

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Really?

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And so, you know, those things that

was preceded from my sort of working

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class background and upbringing.

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And it gave me a real appreciation

for the men and women who are in

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blue collar working class jobs.

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And it also convinced me as

that's not something I wanted

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to do for the rest of my life.

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I needed more of a challenge

and more something that was a

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little less tedious and boring.

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I went to religious schools, I went to

Lutheran schools, and I was a pretty

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good student, and I liked school.

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Most of my classmates in high school,

which was also a Lutheran high school,

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were set on going to college, and that

certainly put that idea in my head.

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But I couldn't really afford it, my family

couldn't afford it, so I got this little

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scholarship from the church to go to one

of their, they had a system of teachers

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colleges, and so I got that little grant,

I said, well, I want to go to college,

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it was in Chicago, which was nice, a big

city, got away from home a little bit.

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And the tuition was affordable and

so forth, so that's where I went

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to college and became a teacher.

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And while I was in college, I realized

that this is really a good fit for me to

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become a teacher for a variety of reasons.

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So when I graduated, I taught in Lutheran

elementary schools for eight years.

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In Florida and Minnesota, believe it

or not, two climate extremes, I got

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my master's and one of my professors

took an interest in me and suggested I

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might consider going on for a doctorate.

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Well, that seemed like, you know,

totally foreign idea to me at the time,

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but it kind of took hold and to make

a long story short, I applied and was

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accepted at the university of Minnesota.

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Which was, at that time,

considered probably the top reading

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program in, in, in the country.

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Although I didn't know when I went in

that I would be specializing in reading.

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We called it reading then,

not just, not literacy.

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But, lo and behold, one of

my mentors, Robert Schreiner,

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interviewed me and, and gave me an

assistantship to work on a project.

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That he was, that he had funded by

Controlled Data Corporation to early days

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of computing for adult literacy program.

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Online and he was in reading.

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So one thing led to another and

therefore I became interested

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in and prepare myself to be a

specialist in reading and literacy.

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My 1st job was at Rutgers for 2 years.

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It was a little complicated

because it wasn't a public school.

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Permanent position was supposed

to become one, but it didn't.

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And so I was looking for a job.

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So I went to Georgia

after a couple of years.

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And from there, after 19

years, I went to Clemson.

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As an endowed professor until 2017,

when I retired, and I should say,

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I'm semi retired because I'm at

and that adjunct position in my old

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department, and I'm still engaged

in some professional activity.

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So that's a quick.

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Overview of how I became a teacher

interested in education and eventually

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got my doctorate and worked at

several very good universities.

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So what grades what grades did

you teach when you were in?

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I taught I taught 5th and 6th grade

in an elementary school mainly.

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Now, when I went to Minnesota, I also had,

they, they, they went up through ninth

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grade and I taught, believe it or not,

I taught some high school algebra, which

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was a learning experience because that was

probably the, the maximum mathematics I

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took when I was in high, so it impressed

upon me that there's no better way to

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learn a topic than be forced to teach it.

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Oh, I love that.

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Well, how about some

highlights from your career?

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I mean, you've, you, you have, you

continue to have such an amazing

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career, but where there's some

points or some things or projects or.

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Well, I could identify some points, but

I guess the, the first thing that comes

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to mind is what a privilege I've had to

work with some really talented, smart.

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Awful and the likable colleagues and

students in each of the universities

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where I worked, you know, they've

helped me get, get smarter.

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And hopefully it's been reciprocal that

I've helped them and in their careers.

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And I think I've got evidence of that.

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I've had some students, I have 1 student

who is now out done me as an endowed

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professor at the University of Alabama.

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So.

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You know, I'm proud of my students

and, and yet the, you know, the,

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I always say it's a symbiosis.

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We can help mentor our students,

but they pass on a lot of things

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to us and help us learn as well.

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I guess another thing that I look

back on As being a highlight is

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those networks have extended abroad,

as you mentioned in your, your

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in and I've been able to travel.

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I've been able to go to a lot of

different countries, give talks,

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work with people, but particularly

I've had extended opportunities to

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become familiar with education and,

and, and, and colleagues in Italy.

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In Columbia, South

America and in Singapore.

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And I've spent quite a bit of time in

each of those places, mostly Italy,

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where I've also tried to learn Italian

with marginal success, but some success.

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And those international

contexts have really enriched.

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Me personally and professionally, and

then, you know, you mentioned other

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things that are certainly highlights

editing to leading journals, working

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with good colleagues on those journals,

particularly my friend and close

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colleague, Don Alderman on our queue.

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I was a department head

for 10 years and some.

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People that have been department

heads would probably wonder

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why I list that as a highlight.

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It's a challenging job, can be a lot

of headaches, but I was in a dream

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department with wonderful colleagues.

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We had, believe it or not, in the 10 years

I was a department head, we had over 10

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million in external funding, which made

things a lot easier to be a department.

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So it was, it was, and I would say,

well, I guess I, because it was such a

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good department and I guess I have some

talents as a administrator, I was able to

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continue my scholarship during that time.

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It's it's, I had a lot of

good people helping me.

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I.

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Have a knack for delegating and so

I was able to, you know, keep up

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my scholarship during that time.

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Then there's the LRA presidency,

another leadership position.

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But you know, another highlight,

especially in the latter half of my

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career, maybe we could talk about why

it's only in the latter half Is to

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work with a lot of really innovative,

hardworking, dedicated teachers

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and classrooms with my research.

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Tell me about that.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Well, the grants help, you know, make

that possible more than anything.

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And because they were, it was

classroom centered research and

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also through my students who were

for all former teachers and had

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connections in the, in the schools.

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And, but that.

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This being the second half of my career,

it would be, it was because I became

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interested in design based research.

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And maybe we can talk about

that in just a minute too.

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But I do want to mention one thing

in retirement that is a highlight.

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I've been able to continue some of

my writing and, and, and one of the,

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the things that has been delightful

to me is I published my first article

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in the last year with my wife.

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Oh, nice.

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So she was the co author on an article we

wrote in the Read and Recovery Journal.

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And it made me wonder

why I waited so long.

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She was a great collaborator and it

was, it was a great collaboration.

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So that, that has been kind of a

highlight of my retirement period.

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So, tell me about the article.

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What was that?

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Tell us the focus of that.

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The article was about why phonics

in English is so difficult

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to teach, learn, and apply.

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And it, it's not directly, but

indirectly confrontational to some

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of the overselling of phonics.

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In classrooms and scripted programs, and

the sort of the underlying theme is that

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most English speakers don't you know,

because they are good readers, because

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they can recognize words fail to see.

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The complexities, the full

complexity of English spelling.

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So that was the that was

the focus of that article.

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So I want to go back to some

of the experiences you shared.

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So tell me about those

collaborations in Italy and abroad.

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How did they evolve?

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Did they, what did you do?

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How, tell me a little bit more about that.

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I'm curious.

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Yeah.

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I can frame it.

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This way is one of the, the principles

that have guided my career is not

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waiting for good things to happen

and new and good opportunities to

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come your way, but to go after them.

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So, the Italy program evolved kind

of in that as an example of that.

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I have to go back that in my travels,

one of the, the, the broad activities

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that I have was I got a grant to go

to the UK for three weeks and visit

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people and talk to people about

literacy, particularly in those days,

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my interest in digital technologies.

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And it included a session with the

undersecretary of education, the UK

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that that actually came about simply

because I called up the embassy in

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Washington and said, I had a colleague

in Canada who always got a grant to

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go over and do these kinds of things.

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And I wondered if they did.

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And they said, well, we

haven't, but send us a proposal.

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So I sent him a proposal today.

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I'm going to get the Italy

here because I took my.

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My son with me, who was about 12

at the time on that trip, when

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I got back, my other two kids

said, well, what about us dad?

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So I had to take my trips and we

always went to European country and

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some place I hadn't been recently.

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So my daughter went to Italy and while

I was there, I visited the University of

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Georgia, had a program in Cortona, Italy.

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For 30 some years centered on

landscape architecture, and I dropped

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in on them while we were there.

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And I said, have you ever thought

about doing something in education?

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And they said, no, but

send us a proposal again.

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And I got together with another faculty

member and created, not in Cortona, it

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turned out, and there's, it's a long

story how it ended up in a nearby town,

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but we started a Maymester program

for undergraduates in education.

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And they would live with, each

would live with an Italian family.

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And be placed in a school.

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And that program, by the way,

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I'm not, so this will be it's in its 25th

year and led by one of my former students.

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Now, and it was her idea, actually, she

took my advice and didn't wait for a good

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thing to happen to see she made it happen.

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She encouraged us to apply for an

award from the international education.

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Oh, I can't remember the, the, the

title exactly, but we won an award at 1

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year for the best study abroad program.

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And it was so important that

we were flown up to the United

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Nations to accept the award.

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And I got a personal call from the

president of Clemson University.

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Congratulations.

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So it was a big deal, but it wasn't.

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My students, so and I have, I still have

an Italian family that I correspond with.

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I just sent off birthday

greetings to them.

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Their kids have been here.

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Oh, wow.

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Oh, I've had a very strong

connections in Italy.

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I can relate to that in a small,

a small, just a small way.

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But so, I was a Fulbright and we went to

Austria this past year, and then that sort

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of got the traveling bug to my family.

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And so, and another trip, I took my

daughter to Ireland to visit some

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wonderful colleagues at my great colleague

at McKennedy at Dublin city university.

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And then when I got back, my

son said, well, what about me?

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And so now you've

experienced this as well.

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Yeah.

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Oh, wow.

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But that's just wonderful.

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So I love that idea of just making

things happen and really working

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to kind of collaborate with people.

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And I love it that the

program is still so strong.

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And that you're still in contact,

that's got to be so special.

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What did, what did they think of

Georgia when they came to visit?

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Well, you know, it's, it's the things that

I didn't imagine they were impressed by.

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I don't, I remember this is

just a random memory, but.

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We were riding down the interstate

and they see the green signs and they

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said, that's just like all the American

we see in all the American movies.

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Who would have thought that

that would have been pressed?

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I'm sure I'm doing the same thing

when I go to Italy, but we actually

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reciprocated with the people who helped

us over there by facilitating a group

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of Italian middle school students

under their supervision to come here.

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Wow.

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And attend a camp on a lake in Georgia.

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So there was a lot of, there were a lot of

cross cultural opportunities and actually

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I remember picking them up on the 4th of

July from the airport and they're meeting

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their bus and we went to some, they hadn't

slept, you know, with the time change.

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We all went to a big 4th

of July fireworks thing.

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So we gave them the full

experience for a while.

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Yeah.

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So.

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Oh, wow.

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That's, that's amazing.

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So how about some other highlights?

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And those are amazing, but I don't, I

know that your career is so expansive.

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And I think I'm wondering about

the, the formative experiences,

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experiments, and the work with teachers.

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I'm sure there's been

highlights with that.

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Have there been really pivotal experiences

or any, maybe anything surprised you about

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that work or just your work in general?

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Well, yeah, let me talk a little

bit about that because it's a very

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important aspect of my career.

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And I trace it back, I, I guess

I should say my, my career is

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sort of had two distinct phases.

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You know, I was trained as

a quantitative researcher.

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I did that kind of research early in

my career, got me tenure and promoted.

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And then I have what I've explained to

others and call a conversion experience.

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I had a small grant to do, it was

one of the IRA, old IRA grants.

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To do a study in a middle school

here in Athens, where I live,

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and it involved technology.

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I think it was using technology to

do what might be called digital.

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Book reports an alternative to

the conventional book report

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that was multimedia very

early on when multimedia was.

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In a very early stage, but it was a

total disaster from the standpoint

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of, you know, it was designed

as a conventional experiment.

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We had, you know, classrooms

using one the full version of this

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and one that was using a partial

version and then control classrooms.

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But right from the beginning, the, the

whole research project was a disaster.

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For example, the principal decided that

all of the readers who were experiencing

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difficulties would be placed in one of

the classrooms with one of the teachers.

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Now, anybody knows it was a personally

reasonable decision for the principal

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to do this, but we're going, wait

a minute, that screws up art.

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Our experiment, because now

we've got a classroom that's much

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different in a significant way

from, from the other classrooms.

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Then in the middle of the experiments,

one of the control teachers said,

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Oh, this stuff is wonderful.

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I'm going to do that.

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You know, so what could we say?

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No, no, you can't do that because

that'll mess up our experiment.

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So of course we said, okay,

and I remember very, it's just

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an image burned in my brain.

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That I was working with some doctoral

students and we were debriefing in my

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office this failed experiment and at one

point, one of the doctoral students said

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something that just caused us all to just

pause and be totally discombobulated.

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He said, well, you know, this

was a problem because the teacher

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was a nuisance variable and.

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Yeah, in a statistical sense, but

somehow it felt very, very wrong to be

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calling a teacher a nuisance in a study.

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And it, it dawned on us that any

way we're doing our research that

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works so much against the grain of

what is happening in schools, where

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principals are making decisions like

this, where teachers see something and

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they want to do it because it works,

and that we're trying to undermine

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What is really sensible and important

choices to be made in school that

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there's something not wrong with them.

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There's something wrong with us

and the way we're doing research.

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And about that time, I read an article

in the educational researcher by

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Dennis Newman, who described what

he called a formative experiment.

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Now he was using it, I think, in science

where the idea was to Have an intervention

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in science that I don't even remember

precisely the goal that allowed you

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to get input from the teachers and

to formatively change it based on the

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data you were gathering and analyzing.

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And I said, my gosh, that's

exactly what we could have used.

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And, by the way, when we were doing

that debriefing, after we kind of got

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over that awkward moment of calling

the teacher a nuisance, we began

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to talk about what we did learn.

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And we learned a lot of things, they

just weren't statistically analyzable.

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And a light bulb just went on in my

head with the conversion of this failed

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experiment, at least from a quantitative

methodological point of view, really

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produced some interesting Insights

about what was and wasn't working.

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And at the same time reading this

article and this light bulb went on.

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And that's when I started to

investigate design based research.

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Formative experiment is, is a one

type of design based research.

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And that was a pivotal point, I guess

you would say a highlight, but a

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pivotal point in my career to turn

me in that direction, 180 degrees.

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Way from doing conventional

experiments with quantitative analysis.

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Was it a hard, was it a hard shift?

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Were you, was it, did you find

yourself kind of leaning more

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toward that side of quantitative?

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Or did you, was it hard?

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You know, were you, were you

just like, I, I, this is great.

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Like I'm, I'm sold.

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This is how we need to do it.

401

It's, it's the latter.

402

Like I said, that's why I call

it a conversion experience.

403

You know, like one day I was this and the

next day, almost literally I was this.

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That's so it, it was, it was such

a relief because the, every time I

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thought about what are the advantages

and disadvantages, I couldn't, you

406

know, it just made so much sense to me.

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And it sort of put me on this path

of recognizing that we as researchers

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need to be partners with teachers

and practitioners in the schools.

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And even the teachers had to relearn,

because in another study, the one

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that was funded by a grant where

we did a formative experiment, we

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would have things like this happen.

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And we would, we would

have an intervention, and

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we, with the teachers, we.

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And we always let them make the final

decision about how we were going to

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go about initiating something that

we were doing in the classroom,

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an intervention of, of some sort.

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And the next time we came back in a

few days or whatever, they would have

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this very sour look on their face and

well, we're sorry to say that, you know,

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it's just, you know, what we thought

was going to work just didn't work.

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And we said in our face, Oh, good.

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Because now we know something that we

didn't know before and they said, Oh,

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you're not really disappointed with

us or the situation because it didn't,

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and we said, no, that's the whole idea.

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We want to know what is,

what is and isn't working.

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Why?

426

And how we can, you know, mitigate

challenges and barriers and capitalize

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on things that aren't working.

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So we, you know, their, their

definition of us as researchers was

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much out of line with, with what

we wanted to be now that we were in

430

this new frame of doing research.

431

And so it, it's really, I've come to

realize that a phrase that I use in

432

relation to design is, is failure is data.

433

Now, failure, it isn't total failure,

typically, hopefully, but it's not

434

meeting your expectations of how this

might work or ought to work or could

435

work and, you know, analyzing why, you

know, And so we're not afraid of failure.

436

And then it occurred to me over the

years that when was the last time

437

you read a research report about

something going on in classrooms

438

or an educational issue where the

people report that it didn't work?

439

Right.

440

Didn't work very well.

441

Right.

442

And why?

443

Well, we did publish

one article like that.

444

I guess that might be a highlight as well.

445

Yeah.

446

In the Literacy Research in JLR, our

good journal, that documented how we went

447

into A middle school science classroom

and tried to improve internet critical

448

use of websites within the classroom.

449

And we didn't, it wasn't very,

it didn't work very well.

450

It was very hard.

451

For example, we could get students

to tell us what good strategies

452

were, but then they didn't use them.

453

So we were faced with in a

sense, a type of failure.

454

Yeah, it's one thing that they

have the knowledge in their

455

head, but they're not using it.

456

They're not applying it.

457

And that doesn't come out in a

test or some kind of assessment

458

in a conventional experiment.

459

What you really want them to

use what you're teaching them,

460

not just know how to do it.

461

So that gave us, that was an obstacle

to our, to the goal that we had.

462

So we published that article.

463

First of all, it's good

for teachers, I think.

464

To know what something they're

trying to do is difficult.

465

It's not easy That's useful information.

466

It gives you realistic expectations

That you're not a failure.

467

You're not because this this thing

to make this thing happen Is really a

468

difficult thing is useful information

to a teacher now, of course, that's not

469

where it stops What we want to do in our

research is help them figure out how to

470

contend with, how to make, how to get

kids to actually use it, not just know,

471

you know, spit it back to us and tell

us, this is what we, we should be doing.

472

So that is one of the big advantages,

I think, of design based research.

473

When you talked about that article,

so quote unquote, it failed or

474

what were some recommendations

or some nuggets that you learned?

475

You know, did it, did it push your

thinking in terms of, okay, in our

476

next research, we may try to do this.

477

What were some things that you, well,

and that's you know, what I've just said

478

is was one of the, we, unfortunately

we, we didn't, it was really a project

479

where one of my doc students, and as

far as I know, she did not pursue that.

480

But you're right.

481

That is the next step.

482

How can we do this better next time?

483

Yeah.

484

And there are, let's see, I'm

trying to think of another example.

485

We did a study where we were

trying to get high school students.

486

Language arts teachers to integrate

technology into creating arguments, so

487

online digital argumentative writing.

488

And one of the things that we

discovered is that a teacher has to

489

have a strong commitment to process

writing to, for that to, to work.

490

And they have to have such a strong

commitment that it overrides some of

491

their concerns about the test scores.

492

Right, right.

493

So, design based research and the

way we do it reveals some of these

494

things that make, can make or break

whether a particular intervention,

495

pedagogical approach can work or not.

496

And I don't know of any other

kind of search that does it.

497

You know, quantitative, it's what's best.

498

Qualitative research is what's going

on, but there's no attempt to transfer,

499

take that usually not usually there's no

effort to go beyond the description of

500

what is, you know, what what's happening

design based research takes the next step.

501

Well What, how can we make

something good happen?

502

And you really pushed the field.

503

I mean, you just pushed

the field open with that.

504

But when you first started publishing

on that, was it hard to get it accepted?

505

Because people were so used to Yes.

506

Yes, yes, it, it, it, but things

have progressed substantially, but

507

in the early days, yeah, like late

nineties, early two thousands, you got

508

reviewers, editors who didn't really

understand this, like, what is this?

509

Yeah, what is this?

510

Yeah, I can give you a good example.

511

And it's still 1 that I contend with, and

my students and the faculty I've worked

512

with lately continue to deal with, I would

get this, what's your research question?

513

And I said, well, that's not the

way we, you know, what we work from

514

in design based research is a goal.

515

You should be asking me, what is my goal?

516

And that's why I wrote it.

517

Well, I got so much, you know, resistance

to that, that I finally gave in and all

518

I did was write my goal as a question.

519

And so that's my research question.

520

That was a pretty simple

solution, but it was irritating.

521

Yes.

522

But the, but the, the solution was simple.

523

You simply write your goal as a question.

524

That's my research question.

525

How can I make this happen?

526

And that seemed to satisfy people,

but I also have created a document

527

that I actually have never published.

528

I did it for a conference presentation,

but I've sent it out to a lot of people.

529

It gives a framework for conceptualizing,

planning, implementing, and reporting

530

what I call a formative experiment.

531

And, you know, it, it walks

you through the steps.

532

And the hardest step is oftentimes the

first is what, what is the goal and

533

I'm on a doctoral committee right now

where the student is struggling to,

534

you know, I think I know what I want,

but how do I state it in one sentence?

535

I can't remember now.

536

I, that was going somewhere.

537

What was the question again?

538

Oh, just about the trick

of it getting published.

539

Oh, yeah, that's where I was going

with that, that in that document, it

540

shows how you can report a formative

experiment in the, it fits into

541

the standard form for a research.

542

Oh, yeah, that would be helpful.

543

I'd love to see that.

544

So, you know, you've got your intro.

545

Now, theory is, is, is another issue.

546

Because the theory emerges from

what, how do you, excuse me,

547

can I stop just a minute here?

548

I need a drink of water, just

pause it on the recording.

549

Thanks.

550

I felt my voice going here.

551

Now, help get me back on track.

552

Yeah.

553

So just the theory you were

talking about this theory.

554

Because, and actually David Yadin and I

just published over the year and a half

555

or so ago article in RRQ about, it asked

the question, it was a commentary really,

556

do we need more productive theorizing?

557

And we challenged the position

of theory in our work.

558

It not our work, but the fields work

and argued that we need more theory,

559

not about literacy, but for literacy.

560

We made that propositional distinction.

561

That, you know, and the, the, the

role of theory within our work

562

is pretty ambiguous and we have

a lot of different terms for it.

563

Theoretical perspectives,

merging theories.

564

Well, you know, what are all these things,

you know, how do they relate to our work?

565

In design based research, there

may be theories that guide the

566

intervention that, that you want to

try and may be relevant, but theory.

567

emerges from what you, we

call pedagogical theory.

568

Actually, theory is too big

a word for a single study.

569

We call them assert, assertions or

pedagogical conjectures that might

570

ultimately leave, lead to a theory.

571

So the theory emerges, or

at least something that is a

572

precursor to theory emerges.

573

In your careful analysis of

what works and doesn't work.

574

And by the way, you mentioned

something about surprises.

575

You know, if you're a researcher

and you're not being surprised,

576

you're not paying attention.

577

That's what I always say.

578

Yeah.

579

That, in fact, we, in that document,

I mentioned one of the guiding

580

questions for every experiment.

581

It's not a research question for

a particular, it's a, it's one of

582

the fundamental questions when we

were gathering data is what happened

583

that we weren't anticipating.

584

Might even in a medical model, call

it side effects and there can be good

585

side effects and bad side effects.

586

And sometimes those become elements of

our pedagogical assertions or something

587

that is a precursor to a theory.

588

So theory plays a much different

role in design based research

589

than it does conventionally and

in other approaches to research.

590

In fact, one of the things we argue

against in that article that David

591

Yeh and I did is that theory can, you

know, it becomes something dangerous.

592

Because it establishes your biases

and limits what you look for or don't

593

notice or even willfully ignore.

594

A design based research, you can't do

that because the proof is in the pudding.

595

You know, you, you you have

more of an inherent validity.

596

To whatever theoretical assertions,

whatever you want to call them,

597

because you have tried them

in the reality of a classroom.

598

Well, thanks to you.

599

I know that, you know,

you've led the field in that.

600

And so.

601

I'm sure that it's much easier in

some ways to for, you know, you paved

602

the way so it's not an uncommon thing

now for I think journals to have that

603

as a a methodology methodology in

there and the design of the study.

604

So Well, for saying, you know, there are

a lot of other people doing it now and

605

not everybody does it the way I do it.

606

That's fine.

607

It's more of the.

608

Principles underlying the approach

than the actual methodological

609

decisions that are, that are made.

610

I mean, it's so intuitive

and it honors classroom.

611

It honors teachers I think as well.

612

I think, I think it's.

613

Well, yeah, that, and that's

why, well, two things.

614

One is when I explain it to

teachers, they understand that.

615

Oh, that's what I do every day.

616

Yeah.

617

I try to make things work and figure out

why they aren't working and do something.

618

You know, so the other thing though,

it's really interesting is when

619

I go to session, we have a, you

know, a special interest group,

620

interactive community, whatever they

call them at LRA on formative and

621

experiments and design based research.

622

And we get some new people in there

every, every year that visit and

623

want to find out what it's all about.

624

And it's an easy sell to our

colleagues who have been teachers.

625

And that's most of them, at least

those on the colleges of ed who come to

626

LRA and other research organizations,

meetings, that you see the, the light,

627

there's at least a little flicker in

their eyes, not the light bulb going

628

on, that makes a lot of sense to me.

629

That's what I've been missing in my work.

630

Is some kind of authentic, deep approach

to what goes on in classrooms and what

631

might really be something that could be

informative to my, my teacher friends.

632

Yeah, I'd love that.

633

So what do you view as important

questions that your work has led to?

634

I think you, you've, you've shared

some ideas, but I'm wondering if

635

you had any questions that you

think your, your work has led to.

636

Well, you know, maybe answering in terms

of the, the two phases of my career,

637

you know, I still retain an interest

in digital texts and how they can, how

638

we can best prepare students in the

post hypographic world that we live in,

639

we're well into now, to contend with

reading and critical thinking in the.

640

Environments that we have today

with social media and so forth.

641

I, I think that there are a lot of

questions and issues there that.

642

Need to be investigated my former

student, Amy Hutcheson, who I referred

643

to earlier is doing a lot of important

work in that area and is getting,

644

you know, some pretty good funding to

support that work, including current

645

topics like artificial intelligence

and chat and things like that.

646

So I.

647

I think my work was way too theoretical

in the early part of my career in

648

that regard, but it's given me a

perspective that continues to ask,

649

ask questions that I think are

important and need to be addressed.

650

The other things, the second phase of

my career in relation to design based

651

research, I think I'd like people

to think very, reflect and think

652

very seriously about some questions.

653

That are sometimes, too often, I think,

ignored or just assumed to be answered.

654

And they're really basic questions,

like, why do we do research?

655

Who is our audience?

656

What makes for good education research?

657

And I always go back, in terms of that

question, to an article that was very

658

influential to me, written by Karl

659

He said that, His basic argument,

if you want to answer the question,

660

what is good education research?

661

It's most fundamentally an ethical

question, not a methodological question.

662

What are we trying to accomplish?

663

And then, you know, I, I think what

role does theory serve in your research?

664

I think that is, is an important

question that, that I just talked about.

665

So, so those are, you know, some of

the questions that are still occupy,

666

occupy my attention and, and the, the

tools that digital texts provide and

667

this goes back to my dissertation many,

many years ago, how to effectively

668

use those tools that are available.

669

We are, you know, I did a little

dabbling in the history of print

670

technology and the distinctions between.

671

Print and digital technologies and

one of the things that occurred to me

672

is that in, in the print world, the

technologies were so limiting that those,

673

those limitations created some of the

culture and the way we approach tax.

674

Even for example, like copyright,

you know the texts were rare

675

and had to be protected.

676

They didn't, the, the graphical

information was always ancillary to

677

the, the, the, the alpha numeric text.

678

But in a chapter I wrote, actually in

a, in a book edited by historians of all

679

things, which was pretty intimidating.

680

I'll give you the context.

681

The I wrote the final chapter In a

five volume set edited by historians

682

on the history of the book in America.

683

And the final chapter was

the future of the book.

684

Now talk about an intimidating task

on the limb to predict the future

685

and then have it something that was

intelligible, not naive historians.

686

But one of the things that

I, the conclusions of that

687

was that we live in a time.

688

When the technology is so diverse, you

know, people just say a computer is a,

689

is a machine that can become a machine.

690

It can become anything.

691

And the same with digital text.

692

We can decide what we value.

693

And that was the name of the part

of the title of the book value.

694

What do we value in books?

695

And print and what is their future?

696

We have the technology available to

make it into anything we want to.

697

Now we got to decide what

we want to do with it.

698

We're not inheriting the technologies

and their limitations and where they

699

lead us from a very narrow perspective.

700

Restrictive technology.

701

We have a open ended technology.

702

What do we do with it

and how do we do that?

703

And so that's still, still interests

me along with the the design based

704

research interests and questions.

705

I love that.

706

So how about this?

707

Given your career striving to transform

thinking, what is your current view

708

or current advice to the field?

709

Any advice?

710

Oh, policymakers.

711

It's another gigantic question.

712

Yeah, it's a, it's a huge question.

713

And you know, if you gave me a

couple of months, I probably write up

714

something really coherent and profound.

715

But I guess I think in what, what is very

frustrating, I think now to a lot of us

716

in education and what's going on, I think

we, we need to reclaim our leadership.

717

In conducting research that directly

informs classroom instruction, and I

718

think we need to do more, you know,

Dick Ellington in his presidential talk.

719

Oh, it's been more than 10 years ago.

720

Now, I guess at L.

721

R.

722

A.

723

Talked about.

724

These issues of trusting teachers,

informing teachers in our work, and

725

he, he challenged us as an organization

by saying that we are abdicating

726

or have abdicated our leadership.

727

To the special education people.

728

They aren't doing research that

really addresses how can we help

729

kids who are really struggling

to read and having problems.

730

You'd be hard pressed today at

LRA, I think, to find any sessions

731

that directly address that issue.

732

So that's not to Criticize or

underestimate the very important

733

commitments that LRA and our professional

organizations have had for a long,

734

long time to issues like social

justice, equity, but we need to merge

735

that deep felt commitment With what

we really know about and how we can

736

make things better in the classroom.

737

So, I think that, and I, I, I guess

I'd also say that we, as a, well,

738

teachers, and it should be easier

for us as professors, need to stand

739

firm against the pressures that

they're being exerted against us.

740

And too often, you know, you know,

our, one of our greatest strengths is

741

also one of our greatest limitations.

742

We are nice people.

743

We're cooperative people.

744

We like to more or less follow the rules.

745

But sometimes when people are

interfering with our professional

746

judgment, are foisting on us points

of view that are not, Research based,

747

or at least they're open to questions.

748

We need to resist and standardize

and it, you know, relates to what we

749

were talking about earlier where, you

know, the college professors now are

750

in a position where they have to be.

751

It's almost like submitting lesson plans.

752

Right?

753

Right.

754

And, you know, to policy

makers, that's easy.

755

I can tell them what I

think they should do.

756

I don't know if they'll ever do it or not.

757

But if they want to improve education,

they need to realize, and the data

758

supports this overwhelmingly, they need

to eliminate social economic disparities.

759

There's, there's nothing and to leave

teachers alone to do their jobs and

760

don't listen to the latest parents

pressure group or a small group of

761

researchers who have a point of view who

want to politicize reading instruction.

762

We need to stand firm against that

and to do it not individually, but

763

collectively to think very strategically.

764

About, you know, not just spouting

off and making ourselves feel good

765

or preach to the choir, but how

can we really get that message out?

766

And it's very frustrating.

767

It's very frustrating times that we

live in, in relation to those issues.

768

Oh, David, this has been, yeah, this has

just been such a great conversation and.

769

I just, you're just such a hero of mine.

770

And so I thank you so much for,

for your work and all of the, your

771

commitment to making schools better

for kids and for communities.

772

And you are just it's just been

such a pleasure to talk with you.

773

Well, I could say the the

same kinds of things back.

774

Thank you for allowing me to think about

some of these issues and express myself.

775

And share any thoughts or insights

that I have had over my career.

776

And thank you so much

for doing this series.

777

And I hope that a lot of

people will listen to it.

778

And I know I'm going to listen to some

of the other ones that you've done now.

779

And I certainly will alert people

in my networks that it's available.

780

Thank you so much, David.

781

It's been a true honor and

privilege to talk with you.

782

Thank you, Margaret.

783

All right.

784

Thanks.