What can leaders learn from a sales expert?

I used to think sales was something I didn’t need to pay attention to. My focus as a communications expert was to engage, take people with us, not do the tell and sell, which felt emotionless and directive and rarely won hearts and minds for change to happen.

But over the past couple of years I’ve had a rethink on what sales means - thanks to some great mentors and coaches - and I’ve come to realise it’s a hidden gem for leaders to embrace.

In this episode I’m delighted to talk to Jessica Lorimer, a bone-fide sales expert and a mentor for me over the past year or so. Jess works with organisations and business owners to take the sleaze out of sales and show that it can be a real business asset.

We talk about:

• what sales actually means
• the transferable practical and emotional intelligence skills required
• the art of a good conversation
• being a good listener, and how to adapt when having ADHD
• avoiding small talk, building rapport and networks
• consistency, discipline and self-leadership
• dealing with rejection
• knowing when to be persistent and when to back off
• what it means to be a leader who is neurodivergent and has a long-term condition

Resources and helpful links

• ‎Marginal Gains Maximum Profit on Apple Podcasts
• Selling to Corporate ® Podcast

Jessica Lorimer

Jess Lorimer is a B2B sales trainer and founder of the Selling to Corporate ® podcast and training consultancy. With over 14 years of sales experience, Jess has worked across multiple industries and locations to build new business and has spent the last 10 years teaching others how to successfully win new business using best practice sales methods.

Jessica's Facebook page

@jess_lorimer on Instagram

@JessicaLorimer on X

Jessica's Website

If you want to transform your leadership impact book a free consultation call with me

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Lee Griffith: 00:00:10

What can leaders learn from a sales expert? I

Lee Griffith: 00:00:13

used to think sales was something I didn't really need

Lee Griffith: 00:00:15

to pay attention to. My focus as a communications expert was to

Lee Griffith: 00:00:19

engage take people reverse not do the whole talent set up,

Lee Griffith: 00:00:24

which to me felt emotional nurse directive and rarely won hearts

Lee Griffith: 00:00:28

and minds for actual change to happen. Over the past couple of

Lee Griffith: 00:00:32

years, I've had a rethink on what sales means, thanks to some

Lee Griffith: 00:00:36

great mentors and coaches. And I've come to realize it's a

Lee Griffith: 00:00:39

hidden gem for leaders to embrace. I'm Lee Griffith,

Lee Griffith: 00:00:43

communications strategist, executive coach and all round

Lee Griffith: 00:00:45

champion of leaders who shun the old school stereotypes. You can

Lee Griffith: 00:00:49

also find out how I can support your organization to better

Lee Griffith: 00:00:52

connect with the people it serves. Visit Sundayskies.com to

Lee Griffith: 00:01:05

find out more. In this episode, I'm delighted to talk to Jess

Lee Griffith: 00:01:14

Lorimer, a bonafide a sales expert and a mentor to me over

Lee Griffith: 00:01:18

the past year or so. Jess works with organizations in business

Lee Griffith: 00:01:22

owners to take the sleaze out of sales and show that it can

Lee Griffith: 00:01:25

actually be a real business asset. We talked about the sales

Lee Griffith: 00:01:28

skills that are relevant and transferable to leadership, and

Lee Griffith: 00:01:31

we explore what it means to be a leader who is neurodivergent

Lee Griffith: 00:01:34

enjoy.

Lee Griffith: 00:01:48

So I'm delighted to welcome Jessica Lorimer on to the

Lee Griffith: 00:01:53

leaders of impact podcast. Thank you for coming on.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:01:56

Thank you for having me. I always say and Max,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:01:59

my dog, obviously who hasn't gone every podcast episode that

Jessica Lorimer: 00:02:03

I've ever recorded or ever been on. But we're both very excited.

Lee Griffith: 00:02:07

I love I love when Max appears in yours. I can't

Lee Griffith: 00:02:10

have my dog at my feet because he will jump up at me at some

Lee Griffith: 00:02:13

point. So

Jessica Lorimer: 00:02:14

you know, Max just just loves to snore the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:02:16

whole way through. Either he thinks I'm incredibly boring, or

Jessica Lorimer: 00:02:19

he secretly has thoughts that he needs to share with the world. I

Jessica Lorimer: 00:02:22

don't know what I

Lee Griffith: 00:02:23

would love to know dogs listening to your podcast.

Lee Griffith: 00:02:26

So they like tuning into a whole other conversation

Jessica Lorimer: 00:02:28

on regard. Maybe that's it, maybe there's

Jessica Lorimer: 00:02:31

like a poor tunes or something. And I'm like, really highly

Jessica Lorimer: 00:02:35

ranked. If you're going to do that I'm very low down ranking.

Lee Griffith: 00:02:40

Anyway, as much as I could talk about dogs all day.

Lee Griffith: 00:02:43

And we are here to talk about sales, but perhaps not as people

Lee Griffith: 00:02:47

would anticipate. So I want to kick off with, I suppose,

Lee Griffith: 00:02:51

crushing the stereotype that people have of sales because I

Lee Griffith: 00:02:55

think offered you either think oh selling is you've got a

Lee Griffith: 00:02:59

shopfront and you're trying to get rid of a product or they

Lee Griffith: 00:03:02

think of this row sales style bit sleazy bit disingenuous a

Lee Griffith: 00:03:08

bit pushy. And I be honest, that was the perception I had for a

Lee Griffith: 00:03:12

long, long time. And was the reason why I was really

Lee Griffith: 00:03:14

uncomfortable when I started my business about doing sales

Lee Griffith: 00:03:17

stuff. And I've had to do a lot of unlearning, thanks to your

Lee Griffith: 00:03:20

helpers along the way. And I suppose in that unlearning, I've

Lee Griffith: 00:03:24

realized there's some core skills that you need for towels

Lee Griffith: 00:03:28

that actually would have served me really well in my leadership,

Lee Griffith: 00:03:31

kind of career, my kind of past life, as I call it. And that was

Lee Griffith: 00:03:35

the reason why I wanted you to come on the show and have a bit

Lee Griffith: 00:03:38

of a chat about it. So I'd like to start by what you see and

Lee Griffith: 00:03:42

define as sales.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:03:45

So I think it's really interesting, because I'm

Jessica Lorimer: 00:03:47

with you, in that most people avoid sales like the plague. And

Jessica Lorimer: 00:03:52

when I was working in corporate sales, so what 14 years ago now,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:03:55

I was that sales person on that sales floor working with 400

Jessica Lorimer: 00:04:00

other people who were in sales, just like that sales person that

Jessica Lorimer: 00:04:04

they'd be like, I think it's really interesting, because out

Jessica Lorimer: 00:04:08

of all of the skills that you need in life, sales is probably

Jessica Lorimer: 00:04:13

the most transferable across all areas of your life. So if you

Jessica Lorimer: 00:04:16

have kids, and you've ever got your kids to do something they

Jessica Lorimer: 00:04:19

didn't want to do like go to school, or put their pajamas on

Jessica Lorimer: 00:04:22

or have a bar. I don't know much about children, but these are

Jessica Lorimer: 00:04:25

things I hear. Or you've had a partner who doesn't want to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:04:29

watch a film, and you've gotten them to, you know, get into a

Jessica Lorimer: 00:04:33

reality TV show that you like or something, then you have sold,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:04:37

because sales is about decision making. And I think the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:04:40

interesting thing is that when we look at what we imagine sales

Jessica Lorimer: 00:04:45

to be, most people feel like sales is about convincing people

Jessica Lorimer: 00:04:50

to do something they don't want to do or persuading people to do

Jessica Lorimer: 00:04:53

something they don't want to do. If we look at what sales

Jessica Lorimer: 00:04:56

actually is, it's about giving people All transparently the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:05:02

information they need to make a decision. And the best

Jessica Lorimer: 00:05:06

salespeople will tell you that they don't really care what the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:05:08

decision is. And there are lots of reasons and metrics behind

Jessica Lorimer: 00:05:12

that. But the best salespeople are focused on helping people to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:05:16

make an informed decision, and not actually persuading them to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:05:20

do something that they don't want to do. So

Lee Griffith: 00:05:24

you're not selling? No. Even when you are

Lee Griffith: 00:05:30

selling? Exactly,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:05:31

you're listening. Yeah, and I think

Jessica Lorimer: 00:05:33

that's that's the interesting thing is that sales is very much

Jessica Lorimer: 00:05:36

about listening to what somebody is saying, and what somebody

Jessica Lorimer: 00:05:41

thinks their problem is, and what somebody wants, and then

Jessica Lorimer: 00:05:45

posing solutions that either meet the need, or explaining why

Jessica Lorimer: 00:05:50

your solutions might not actually be the right fit. And

Jessica Lorimer: 00:05:53

that's if you get the best, most honest salesperson in the world,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:05:56

obviously, let's, let's be very clear, we've all worked with

Jessica Lorimer: 00:06:00

disingenuous salespeople, and we've worked with people who

Jessica Lorimer: 00:06:03

weren't very good at sales. And you know, there are some styles

Jessica Lorimer: 00:06:06

that are very much about hard selling, and almost beating

Jessica Lorimer: 00:06:09

people submission, but it doesn't work anymore. You know,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:06:13

what we talk about is consultative selling, we're

Jessica Lorimer: 00:06:15

talking about transparent communication, we're talking

Jessica Lorimer: 00:06:18

about articulating information in a digestible way. We're

Jessica Lorimer: 00:06:23

talking about helping and empowering people to make a

Jessica Lorimer: 00:06:26

decision that they are happy with. And that's how you get

Jessica Lorimer: 00:06:30

maximum buy in, you know, and we translate that into a corporate

Jessica Lorimer: 00:06:34

setting, those skills are massively transferable across

Jessica Lorimer: 00:06:38

other areas, you know, communication, and having good

Jessica Lorimer: 00:06:41

clear communication is worthwhile in a managing a team

Jessica Lorimer: 00:06:46

setting, it's worthwhile from a marketing standpoint, it's

Jessica Lorimer: 00:06:49

worthwhile from getting along with the co workers perspective,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:06:54

you know, if we look at articulating information in the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:06:57

right way and concisely, then we can understand how we can get

Jessica Lorimer: 00:07:02

more stakeholder buy in for new projects and initiatives, we can

Jessica Lorimer: 00:07:05

understand how to explain commercial benefits, build

Jessica Lorimer: 00:07:08

business cases better. So it's those kinds of skills, practical

Jessica Lorimer: 00:07:12

skills, alongside emotional intelligence, the listening,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:07:16

the, you know, communication piece, the human to human

Jessica Lorimer: 00:07:20

elements that I think we don't understand, or that we don't

Jessica Lorimer: 00:07:25

factor in as being a big skill for salespeople to have, but

Jessica Lorimer: 00:07:28

it's actually the biggest tool in their arsenal.

Lee Griffith: 00:07:30

Yeah, I really like that sense of tuning into

Lee Griffith: 00:07:34

the emotional intelligence. And I think one of the mindset

Lee Griffith: 00:07:37

shifts for me when I've been doing the work with with you,

Lee Griffith: 00:07:41

has been just really kind of converting it to the fact that

Lee Griffith: 00:07:44

I'm having a conversation with people, nothing more, nothing

Lee Griffith: 00:07:47

less. Yeah. And as a leader, as you've kind of alluded to, you

Lee Griffith: 00:07:50

need to have conversations with people to build connection and

Lee Griffith: 00:07:52

to build trust, the art of a good conversation, what does

Lee Griffith: 00:07:57

that look like? And how do you start to build those skills?

Jessica Lorimer: 00:08:00

either? So I think that's a really good

Jessica Lorimer: 00:08:02

question, because most people ask me, How can I sell without

Jessica Lorimer: 00:08:05

being salesy? Even in a corporate environment that i How

Jessica Lorimer: 00:08:08

can I sell something into the board without them feeling like

Jessica Lorimer: 00:08:11

I'm selling it? And the reality is, it does all come down to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:08:14

having a decent conversation. And I think that there are

Jessica Lorimer: 00:08:17

probably three phases. If we looked at what made up a

Jessica Lorimer: 00:08:20

successful sales conversation, we'd be looking at one

Jessica Lorimer: 00:08:24

expectation, I think people give sales itself a bad rap. Because

Jessica Lorimer: 00:08:29

we have this idea that is sleazy, that is false, that

Jessica Lorimer: 00:08:33

we're trying to achieve something persuade, convince

Jessica Lorimer: 00:08:35

force, right? But actually, we're just talking about

Jessica Lorimer: 00:08:38

mismanaged expectations. Because if every salesperson came to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:08:42

every stakeholder and said, Hey, I want to have a discussion with

Jessica Lorimer: 00:08:45

you about whatever you're doing in X particular area, that

Jessica Lorimer: 00:08:49

person can then make a decision about whether they want to have

Jessica Lorimer: 00:08:51

that conversation, or not. So if we start looking at the art of

Jessica Lorimer: 00:08:56

conversations and having successful conversations, the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:08:59

first thing we have to do is manage the other person's

Jessica Lorimer: 00:09:01

expectations. What are we actually going to talk to them

Jessica Lorimer: 00:09:04

about? And is this a conversation that they can

Jessica Lorimer: 00:09:07

choose to enter into or not? Because if we're looking at

Jessica Lorimer: 00:09:11

difficult conversations in the workplace, for example, around

Jessica Lorimer: 00:09:14

bullying, or harassment or something like that, you might

Jessica Lorimer: 00:09:17

be having those with a team member who doesn't get to choose

Jessica Lorimer: 00:09:21

whether or not they're having that conversation. So the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:09:24

expectation and setting that expectation around what that

Jessica Lorimer: 00:09:27

conversation is going to be about when it's going to happen,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:09:30

and how that's gonna go is just as important as setting the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:09:34

expectation for somebody that you are trying to generate buy

Jessica Lorimer: 00:09:38

in from or make a sale with. So I think that's the first part is

Jessica Lorimer: 00:09:42

that understanding and managing somebody else's expectations

Jessica Lorimer: 00:09:47

that leads you into be able to have a transparent and honest

Jessica Lorimer: 00:09:50

conversation because then everyone knows what's going on.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:09:54

I think the worst thing about conversations is when somebody

Jessica Lorimer: 00:09:57

starts it with how were you and you'll know that that's my pet

Jessica Lorimer: 00:09:59

peeve. If I say this all the time to people, it's not I don't

Jessica Lorimer: 00:10:02

care how people are. But the majority of work situations I

Jessica Lorimer: 00:10:06

don't, I want to get to the meat and potatoes of whatever's going

Jessica Lorimer: 00:10:09

on. And when we talk about conversations, a lot of the time

Jessica Lorimer: 00:10:12

people go in with no agenda, they've got no understanding of

Jessica Lorimer: 00:10:16

what's actually going to happen. So if we first manage the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:10:18

expectations, everyone shows up prepared, which is a win. The

Jessica Lorimer: 00:10:22

second part of our conversations is actually being able to ask

Jessica Lorimer: 00:10:26

good questions. People often don't think about conversations

Jessica Lorimer: 00:10:30

again, because they're not usually prepared for them. They

Jessica Lorimer: 00:10:32

happen off the cuff, there's no agenda. If we actually think

Jessica Lorimer: 00:10:36

about the purpose of our conversation, and what we want

Jessica Lorimer: 00:10:40

to achieve from it, we can ask much better questions. And that

Jessica Lorimer: 00:10:44

leads to much more transparent communication also usually leads

Jessica Lorimer: 00:10:48

to situations being resolved more quickly, or moved forward

Jessica Lorimer: 00:10:52

more quickly. So I think, you know, ask those key questions,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:10:56

even if they feel uncomfortable. And that's very much a sales

Jessica Lorimer: 00:11:00

skill that I think is underappreciated and sometimes

Jessica Lorimer: 00:11:03

disliked immensely. But it is getting down to the nuts and

Jessica Lorimer: 00:11:07

bolts of why something is working or why something isn't

Jessica Lorimer: 00:11:10

working, and being unafraid to consultatively talk through it.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:11:16

It's not saying your idea is rubbish, and dismissing what

Jessica Lorimer: 00:11:21

somebody's saying. But it's about asking questions around

Jessica Lorimer: 00:11:24

why they believe something to be working or not working, and

Jessica Lorimer: 00:11:27

being okay with seeing through and challenging people.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:11:30

consultatively. And then I think the final part is being able to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:11:34

demonstrate active listening. I'm very guilty of this in a

Jessica Lorimer: 00:11:37

conversation because I have ADHD, I'm so eager to show

Jessica Lorimer: 00:11:41

somebody that I'm listening that I will not incessantly I'm like

Jessica Lorimer: 00:11:44

that Churchill dog on the and I'll nod and be like, yeah,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:11:48

yeah, yeah. And actually, it's one of the things I've had to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:11:50

work really hard over the years, because that doesn't benefit the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:11:55

people at the other end of my conversation, because it me

Jessica Lorimer: 00:11:57

trying so hard to demonstrate them out to be listening by me

Jessica Lorimer: 00:12:00

thing. And yeah, what that can inadvertently show is that I'm

Jessica Lorimer: 00:12:05

not listening, or I'm just trying to move them along. And

Jessica Lorimer: 00:12:07

that's actually not it. So what we mean by active listening is

Jessica Lorimer: 00:12:11

genuinely participating in a conversation, you know, is the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:12:14

person making some kind of notes about what they might want to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:12:17

say next? Are they able to summarize back to you something

Jessica Lorimer: 00:12:22

that was important? Or are they able to give a clear and

Jessica Lorimer: 00:12:25

articulate summary of the conversation without dragging

Jessica Lorimer: 00:12:29

any kind of emotional standpoint into it, particularly if it's

Jessica Lorimer: 00:12:31

been a difficult one? And are they able to set those next

Jessica Lorimer: 00:12:35

steps for what needs to happen? It's those skills that

Jessica Lorimer: 00:12:39

demonstrate active listening and give a good conversation, as

Jessica Lorimer: 00:12:43

opposed to one person feeling like they've been a bit

Jessica Lorimer: 00:12:46

railroaded into making some kind of decision. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:12:50

there is so much to unpack there. I mean, the

Lee Griffith: 00:12:55

listening thing is something that I bang on about a lot in

Lee Griffith: 00:12:59

the work that I do, because often, particularly leaders who

Lee Griffith: 00:13:02

are trying to sell their ideas or their strategy and get and

Lee Griffith: 00:13:06

get action, they tend to go into conversations with the How can I

Lee Griffith: 00:13:11

get my point across, they're listening for gaps, to interject

Lee Griffith: 00:13:15

and get their point across rather than listening to the

Lee Griffith: 00:13:18

whole person and the kind of nonverbal cues and all that. So

Lee Griffith: 00:13:22

I think that that is definitely a muscle that needs to be

Lee Griffith: 00:13:26

exercised and is quite hard. You mentioned kind of your ADHD

Lee Griffith: 00:13:30

there, what have you had to do specifically to keep you

Lee Griffith: 00:13:34

focused, I suppose in those listening conversations,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:13:37

a ADHD is is becoming such a big topic right

Jessica Lorimer: 00:13:41

now. And I will say to everybody who's listening, I was diagnosed

Jessica Lorimer: 00:13:44

by the time this episode airs, I will have been diagnosed for

Jessica Lorimer: 00:13:47

about a year. And in all honesty, it wasn't something

Jessica Lorimer: 00:13:50

that really surprised me. If anyone has ever met me, you will

Jessica Lorimer: 00:13:52

know. Oh, yeah, of course. And that was the reaction of a lot

Jessica Lorimer: 00:13:55

of people. I think when I said I've been at Chevron was like,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:13:58

yeah, obviously, I felt like the only person on the planet who

Jessica Lorimer: 00:14:01

didn't really know. But I think that having ADHD can be like

Jessica Lorimer: 00:14:06

having a superpower in some ways. Because naturally, you are

Jessica Lorimer: 00:14:11

more attuned to pick up the things that perhaps people

Jessica Lorimer: 00:14:14

aren't saying. So people who have ADHD, specifically women

Jessica Lorimer: 00:14:18

who have ADHD are more likely to pick up on nonverbal cues

Jessica Lorimer: 00:14:22

better, and they're more likely to be able to think in a

Jessica Lorimer: 00:14:26

nonlinear way. Which means that when you're having conversations

Jessica Lorimer: 00:14:29

somebody with ADHD, you can probably problem solve in a very

Jessica Lorimer: 00:14:33

different and much quicker way. I think the difficulty with it

Jessica Lorimer: 00:14:37

is that I often find that my mind moves a million miles a

Jessica Lorimer: 00:14:42

minute. So either I will trip up over my words because I'm like,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:14:46

Oh, I can I can see where I'm going. I know what my point is.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:14:49

Or I will have had half of the conversation in my head and or

Jessica Lorimer: 00:14:53

it'd be at the end before somebody else has even started

Jessica Lorimer: 00:14:56

and that can be really frustrating. So you kind of have

Jessica Lorimer: 00:14:57

to watch that. If you have the those particular traits on the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:15:02

neurodiversity scale. I think, though, the interesting thing

Jessica Lorimer: 00:15:06

about managing conversations with ADHD is that for a lot of

Jessica Lorimer: 00:15:11

people, you can often feel like you're checking out of

Jessica Lorimer: 00:15:13

conversations, which makes it hard to demonstrate that you're

Jessica Lorimer: 00:15:16

an active listener. Because often you're not checking out,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:15:20

you're just moving ahead in a conversation, you can see how

Jessica Lorimer: 00:15:23

it's gonna play out, you can see how the problem is going to be

Jessica Lorimer: 00:15:25

solved. And so particularly from a sales perspective, people with

Jessica Lorimer: 00:15:30

ADHD, need to really make sure that they're stepping back and

Jessica Lorimer: 00:15:34

that they're covering all their bases that are asking all the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:15:37

right questions, to define all of the practicalities of things

Jessica Lorimer: 00:15:42

before they jump ahead, otherwise, they jump straight

Jessica Lorimer: 00:15:44

into problem solving. And maybe that hasn't actually even been

Jessica Lorimer: 00:15:47

asked for. So I think if you do have neurodiverse traits, or

Jessica Lorimer: 00:15:52

you've been diagnosed as being neurodiversity, you really have

Jessica Lorimer: 00:15:55

to think about what it is that you want, make sure that other

Jessica Lorimer: 00:15:58

people are in the same part of the conversation that you are,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:16:01

and then define whatever your coping strategies are, for me

Jessica Lorimer: 00:16:05

medication twice a week I take because it's not cumulative,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:16:08

ADHD medication, brilliant. I use it on the days that I don't

Jessica Lorimer: 00:16:12

have clients, because it means that my mind is completely

Jessica Lorimer: 00:16:15

clear. And I can just sit down and work, which is unbelievable.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:16:21

However, on days, I do have clients, it wouldn't be as

Jessica Lorimer: 00:16:24

useful for me because my mind wouldn't be able to think in the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:16:27

same way. And that's what makes my brain valuable to the people

Jessica Lorimer: 00:16:31

I work with. So on those days, demonstrating active listening

Jessica Lorimer: 00:16:35

by things like taking notes by being able to summarize by

Jessica Lorimer: 00:16:38

making sure that I've got an idea of where I want a

Jessica Lorimer: 00:16:41

conversation to go, or a reminder of the questions that I

Jessica Lorimer: 00:16:44

want to ask makes my life a lot easier, and makes people

Lee Griffith: 00:16:48

feel heard. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. So

Lee Griffith: 00:16:52

it's an interesting one, because I was thinking, my husband

Lee Griffith: 00:16:55

hasn't got ADHD that we know, who knows. But often, I have

Lee Griffith: 00:17:01

conversations with him. And he's raced ahead and actually on the

Lee Griffith: 00:17:04

receiving end, it can feel quite frustrating at times, because

Lee Griffith: 00:17:07

he's like, I've already thought through every ramification of

Lee Griffith: 00:17:10

what you're about to say. And I can imagine, like having that

Lee Griffith: 00:17:17

knowledge and awareness, if you're that kind of person that

Lee Griffith: 00:17:20

that perhaps does run ahead in a conversation, whether you've got

Lee Griffith: 00:17:23

ADHD or any other condition, or it's just a personality trait in

Lee Griffith: 00:17:27

the way you work is a really important checking, I suppose

Lee Griffith: 00:17:31

that you need to do isn't it? Yeah,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:17:34

absolutely. And I think, if you don't check in

Jessica Lorimer: 00:17:37

the risk is that the other person feels unheard. You know,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:17:40

and that's exactly like you and my husband, for the record also

Jessica Lorimer: 00:17:43

doesn't have ADHD, but does exactly the same thing. You

Jessica Lorimer: 00:17:46

know, he'll have, you know, 20 conversations in his head and

Jessica Lorimer: 00:17:48

say something, and I'm like, where does that even come from.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:17:51

But if it's not done with somebody that's particularly

Jessica Lorimer: 00:17:54

close to you, I mean, you and I both married those people. So

Jessica Lorimer: 00:17:56

we're kind of stuck with that. But if it's in a work capacity,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:18:00

that's super frustrating, because you don't feel heard you

Jessica Lorimer: 00:18:03

don't feel listened to. And when that is somebody who's part of

Jessica Lorimer: 00:18:06

your team, the risk is that they then don't feel valued, and that

Jessica Lorimer: 00:18:12

their contribution is not valuable. And that's a really

Jessica Lorimer: 00:18:15

dangerous place to lead from. I think everyone deserves to show

Jessica Lorimer: 00:18:19

up and feel like they're being heard. Everyone deserves to show

Jessica Lorimer: 00:18:22

up and make a valuable contribution. And sometimes we

Jessica Lorimer: 00:18:26

have to make sure that we're on board with everybody else,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:18:29

getting that buy in. And part of the process to getting buy in

Jessica Lorimer: 00:18:32

from people is letting them process their thoughts in their

Jessica Lorimer: 00:18:35

own way, and giving them time to percolate things. You know, if

Jessica Lorimer: 00:18:38

you're neurodiverse, maybe you don't need that time, but other

Jessica Lorimer: 00:18:40

people really do. So be empathetic to those choices.

Lee Griffith: 00:18:44

The other thing when you were talking through

Lee Griffith: 00:18:46

your your list of three things that make a great conversation,

Lee Griffith: 00:18:50

your second point you talked about often people go into

Lee Griffith: 00:18:54

conversations with no agenda. And one of the things that was

Lee Griffith: 00:18:58

working through my brain at the time, even though I was actively

Lee Griffith: 00:19:01

listening.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:19:04

We're always worried about that. Yeah.

Lee Griffith: 00:19:06

Was that often us people feel really uncomfortable

Lee Griffith: 00:19:10

with small talk, and they think, Oh, if I've got to have

Lee Griffith: 00:19:12

conversations with people who I don't know, or don't know how to

Lee Griffith: 00:19:15

speak on the daily, it's this really uncomfortable thing of

Lee Griffith: 00:19:18

having to make small talk in order to connect. So you've kind

Lee Griffith: 00:19:22

of just Yeah, debunks that what I just wanted to make that point

Lee Griffith: 00:19:25

is your

Jessica Lorimer: 00:19:27

actions such a weird thing there, isn't it?

Jessica Lorimer: 00:19:28

Because from a sales perspective, people tell me this

Jessica Lorimer: 00:19:30

all the time that I urge ask that you just don't know,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:19:33

because it's called developing rapport. Like I've never heard

Jessica Lorimer: 00:19:36

of that. Like, I'm a human being I've had conversations before I

Jessica Lorimer: 00:19:39

know how they go. The difficulty is not everybody cares a small

Jessica Lorimer: 00:19:44

talk. I'm somebody who's introverted. So small talk makes

Jessica Lorimer: 00:19:47

me want to shove hot forks in my eyes like just pleated Yes, it

Jessica Lorimer: 00:19:51

is that kind of thing. Ah, and and people do it under the guise

Jessica Lorimer: 00:19:53

of trying to be friends with you or something. They'll go oh,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:19:56

I've got a dog. Oh, I've got a dog. Oh, what's your dog's name

Jessica Lorimer: 00:19:59

and by the time you know it 25 minutes have gone past and

Jessica Lorimer: 00:20:01

you're like, I just don't care. And you can really like dogs

Jessica Lorimer: 00:20:04

that still not. I'm conscious of how I started this.

Lee Griffith: 00:20:08

I was just thinking that oh, dear.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:20:11

But it's that kind of thing, isn't it? So I

Jessica Lorimer: 00:20:13

think the interesting thing is that we, we kind of mix up

Jessica Lorimer: 00:20:18

connection, rapport, and what we think it means to be polite.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:20:22

Hmm. And I think that that's an interesting mix. Because

Jessica Lorimer: 00:20:26

developing rapport with somebody, or building connection

Jessica Lorimer: 00:20:29

or building relationships with people does not mean they

Jessica Lorimer: 00:20:32

inherently have to like you. And it doesn't mean that they have

Jessica Lorimer: 00:20:37

to agree with all of your values, or the things that you

Jessica Lorimer: 00:20:40

believe either. But developing connection and rapport and

Jessica Lorimer: 00:20:43

building relationships is about understanding what's mutually

Jessica Lorimer: 00:20:46

beneficial. And working towards that goal. That's what builds a

Jessica Lorimer: 00:20:51

great relationship, whether you're talking in a professional

Jessica Lorimer: 00:20:53

capacity, or in a personal capacity, it's mutually

Jessica Lorimer: 00:20:55

beneficial. And so when we talk about building rapport, people

Jessica Lorimer: 00:21:00

get really confused between understanding that it is polite

Jessica Lorimer: 00:21:04

to say, Hey, I'm really excited to record an interview with you

Jessica Lorimer: 00:21:08

today, or, Hey, I'm really excited to start working on this

Jessica Lorimer: 00:21:10

project with you today. And then it's then okay to be like,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:21:14

great. So let's get down to brass tacks. What are we doing?

Jessica Lorimer: 00:21:18

How are we spending our time because we've been polite, and

Jessica Lorimer: 00:21:22

the actual connection piece might come from being really

Jessica Lorimer: 00:21:25

good at our job, and just showing up and doing the things

Jessica Lorimer: 00:21:28

that we're supposed to be doing. That might build really good

Jessica Lorimer: 00:21:31

rapport with another colleague. In the sales world, it's very

Jessica Lorimer: 00:21:35

unusual for salespeople to do what they say they're going to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:21:38

do, when they say they're going to do it, it's very rare. So it

Jessica Lorimer: 00:21:41

can build really good connection and relationships with external

Jessica Lorimer: 00:21:45

providers, with stakeholders with internal board members and

Jessica Lorimer: 00:21:48

things because you're building that connection by demonstrating

Jessica Lorimer: 00:21:52

you can be trusted. It's it's simple things that build

Jessica Lorimer: 00:21:55

connection and rapport. We shouldn't mistake that with

Jessica Lorimer: 00:21:57

politeness and small talk, you know, unless you're going to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:21:59

some awful spousal networking event which I frequently have to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:22:03

do because my husband's in the army. So that tends to be full

Jessica Lorimer: 00:22:05

of smoke.

Lee Griffith: 00:22:09

You've you've kind of bridged into where I've

Lee Griffith: 00:22:11

wanted to bridge into actually, which was, was this building and

Lee Griffith: 00:22:16

developing your network, because again, it's something that I do

Lee Griffith: 00:22:18

strategy days with leaders where we look at what their objectives

Lee Griffith: 00:22:22

are, and then we look objectively who they need to

Lee Griffith: 00:22:26

have around them and who they need to be influencing and

Lee Griffith: 00:22:29

building a love and connection. I often think that leaders don't

Lee Griffith: 00:22:33

do enough of this being really objective on who they need in

Lee Griffith: 00:22:37

their team, who's who's their support network, and who other

Lee Griffith: 00:22:40

people are almost the strategic levers to get what they need to

Lee Griffith: 00:22:43

achieve. And as your needs change. As a leader, your

Lee Griffith: 00:22:47

network needs to change. I'm interested, I suppose in what

Lee Griffith: 00:22:52

you've noticed, as you've advised and supported people in

Lee Griffith: 00:22:58

how they go about building the right networks.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:23:01

Networks are really hard. I was reading

Jessica Lorimer: 00:23:04

something a few weeks ago, and I cannot for the life of me,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:23:07

remember, he wrote it. So if you are interested in the point I'm

Jessica Lorimer: 00:23:09

about to make, please go and look it up because I don't want

Jessica Lorimer: 00:23:11

to do anyone who's just surfing. But I was reading something that

Jessica Lorimer: 00:23:15

the week that talked about the amount of relationships that any

Jessica Lorimer: 00:23:18

one person could realistically manage the person's work I was

Jessica Lorimer: 00:23:22

reading suggested that the average person can only actually

Jessica Lorimer: 00:23:26

maintain seven to 10, close relationships at time, which

Jessica Lorimer: 00:23:31

actually is a very small amount given that most of us I mean, I

Jessica Lorimer: 00:23:34

don't know, I have like, a few 100 friends on Facebook.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:23:37

Obviously, they're not all my friends. Obviously, I'm not

Jessica Lorimer: 00:23:39

what's happening them all all the time. But they are part of a

Jessica Lorimer: 00:23:42

network. And I think again, an interesting point about

Jessica Lorimer: 00:23:45

connection and relationships is that people assume that their

Jessica Lorimer: 00:23:48

network has to be people. They're super, super close to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:23:50

all the time. I think the other interesting point before you and

Jessica Lorimer: 00:23:54

think about building your network is how open are you to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:23:58

asking for help. Because mostly it is a not. The problem with

Jessica Lorimer: 00:24:03

building a network is that if we take it back to that idea that

Jessica Lorimer: 00:24:07

relationships are designed to be mutually beneficial, it can be

Jessica Lorimer: 00:24:11

really problematic, because often with leaders and I see it,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:24:15

particularly with women, people who identify as female, we have

Jessica Lorimer: 00:24:20

a tendency to over give, and under ask. And that becomes a

Jessica Lorimer: 00:24:24

real problem with networking. Because if you're the one who's

Jessica Lorimer: 00:24:27

always giving, you can end up in a really resentful position. You

Jessica Lorimer: 00:24:30

can also end up in a really fearful position where you're

Jessica Lorimer: 00:24:33

worried to bring other people in strategically around you,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:24:36

because you worry about how that's going to impact your

Jessica Lorimer: 00:24:38

career. I know that that's something I really worried about

Jessica Lorimer: 00:24:41

in my 20s competitiveness and things. And then the other thing

Jessica Lorimer: 00:24:45

is that you will never benefit fully from the network unless

Jessica Lorimer: 00:24:49

you're prepared to ask for things when you want them. So we

Jessica Lorimer: 00:24:51

think those are the things that we always have to think about

Jessica Lorimer: 00:24:53

before even start relationship building is how many

Jessica Lorimer: 00:24:55

relationships realistically can I manage? How do I want them to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:25:00

Look, and am I prepared to leverage them in the right way.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:25:04

And that shouldn't be a sleazy kind of feeling like, we should

Jessica Lorimer: 00:25:06

just be like, I would be prepared to help other people, I

Jessica Lorimer: 00:25:09

assume that they would want to do the same for me, but we

Jessica Lorimer: 00:25:11

don't. When it comes to building those relationships, there are

Jessica Lorimer: 00:25:15

lots of different methods that you can use. I think depending

Jessica Lorimer: 00:25:19

on where you are in your career, most people will experience some

Jessica Lorimer: 00:25:23

form of networking in their job, whether that's external with

Jessica Lorimer: 00:25:27

clients, or whether it's internal and you know, building

Jessica Lorimer: 00:25:30

your reputation within the business itself. And I think

Jessica Lorimer: 00:25:34

that networking is still the most common way of building your

Jessica Lorimer: 00:25:39

own brand, or your own influence with the organization that you

Jessica Lorimer: 00:25:42

work with or in your industry. I think networking is difficult

Jessica Lorimer: 00:25:46

for a lot of people, because we do see a small talk and having

Jessica Lorimer: 00:25:49

to stand behind a table with a glass of warm white wine,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:25:52

usually, and I don't know why that is, but it seems to be a

Jessica Lorimer: 00:25:55

prerequisite. And we almost have to do this elevator pitch of you

Jessica Lorimer: 00:26:00

know, this is who I am, this is what I do. And in some senses

Jessica Lorimer: 00:26:02

that might be appropriate. Mostly no, no, I think we need

Jessica Lorimer: 00:26:07

to approach networking differently, and building

Jessica Lorimer: 00:26:09

relationships differently. And that needs to be very much from

Jessica Lorimer: 00:26:12

the beginning. Here's how I help people like you. Here's who I am

Jessica Lorimer: 00:26:18

looking to support people like me, that might not be the common

Jessica Lorimer: 00:26:23

lace way to do it now. But in 10 years time, I think it will

Jessica Lorimer: 00:26:26

pretty much all go that way. You know, if I was to walk up to you

Jessica Lorimer: 00:26:29

at a networking event, for example, and say, Hey, Lee, my

Jessica Lorimer: 00:26:32

name is Jess, and I am a sales expert. And I am looking to add

Jessica Lorimer: 00:26:36

people to my, my network, who are able to support leaders with

Jessica Lorimer: 00:26:42

emotional intelligence and Mindset, Strategy. And in

Jessica Lorimer: 00:26:46

return, I'm looking to build a network of people who can

Jessica Lorimer: 00:26:50

introduce me to leaders who might need support or sales. Is

Jessica Lorimer: 00:26:54

this a good fit? What's wrong with that? It's direct. It's

Jessica Lorimer: 00:26:58

awkward, I think for most people, but you can dress it up

Jessica Lorimer: 00:27:02

and down depending on how formal you want it to be. It gives the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:27:05

other person a transparent opportunity to be like, yeah,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:27:08

sure, it sounds great. Or, Oh, I'm not the right person for

Jessica Lorimer: 00:27:11

that.

Lee Griffith: 00:27:12

Linked to transparency, I suppose is, I

Lee Griffith: 00:27:17

suppose it actually is not linked to transparency at all.

Lee Griffith: 00:27:20

I'm talking rubbish.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:27:23

That's from Aaron.

Lee Griffith: 00:27:28

These guys, it's got a similar sounding word, but

Lee Griffith: 00:27:30

it's not. I want to talk about consistency.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:27:35

My favorite thing, yeah, which

Lee Griffith: 00:27:37

is something that you've shown me and you bang on

Lee Griffith: 00:27:40

about a lot. I perhaps haven't been as great at doing that. But

Lee Griffith: 00:27:45

I also know from my, the work I do with kind of corporate

Lee Griffith: 00:27:48

leaders and from my corporate life, that repetitiveness and

Lee Griffith: 00:27:54

consistency can be a real challenge for particularly CEOs,

Lee Griffith: 00:27:58

they can get bored quite quickly. And if they have to

Lee Griffith: 00:28:02

keep saying the same things and doing the same things, and if

Lee Griffith: 00:28:04

I've had one conversation I've had 100 with people go in, just

Lee Griffith: 00:28:07

because you've said it a lot doesn't mean that everyone's

Lee Griffith: 00:28:09

heard it because your audiences are different. Bla bla bla bla

Lee Griffith: 00:28:12

bla, how do you build a consistent practice into what it

Lee Griffith: 00:28:18

is that you're doing? To keep it sounding fresh? I suppose so

Lee Griffith: 00:28:22

that you feel motivated.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:28:24

I intensely dislike motivation? Yeah, I

Jessica Lorimer: 00:28:28

think motivation is a real killer for consistency and

Jessica Lorimer: 00:28:32

generally performance. Because how motivated I on a daily basis

Jessica Lorimer: 00:28:37

depends on a variety of things. Have I been outside? Have I had

Jessica Lorimer: 00:28:41

enough television time? Have I had enough time to sleep? Do I,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:28:45

you know, have a good relationship with my husband

Jessica Lorimer: 00:28:46

that day, have we just had a fight like, all of those things,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:28:50

impact how motivated I feel, and are completely external to the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:28:54

tasks that I will need to do that day. For me, motivation is

Jessica Lorimer: 00:28:58

really, really difficult, because it is something that I

Jessica Lorimer: 00:29:02

would love to wake up and be like, Oh, my God, I'm so

Jessica Lorimer: 00:29:05

motivated every day to do my job. But I don't think anyone

Jessica Lorimer: 00:29:08

is. I think some days you wake up and you have the perfect

Jessica Lorimer: 00:29:13

morning, you listen to the right music on your commute on the way

Jessica Lorimer: 00:29:16

in, you get up out of bed on the right side, your clothes fit,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:29:19

you look great, you feel motivated, because you're having

Jessica Lorimer: 00:29:23

a really good day. And other days, you have to dig deep and

Jessica Lorimer: 00:29:26

you have to rely on my old friend discipline.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:29:29

Unfortunately, discipline is much less sexy, but produces 99%

Jessica Lorimer: 00:29:35

of the results. Motivation can give you a really good idea. It

Jessica Lorimer: 00:29:38

can make you really positive, really innovative, and to a

Jessica Lorimer: 00:29:41

certain degree magnetic about certain things. Discipline, the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:29:46

doing it every day, infinitely more difficult. And I think in

Jessica Lorimer: 00:29:50

all honesty, the only way that I've been able to do it

Jessica Lorimer: 00:29:52

particularly is somebody who is neurodiverse and finds that

Jessica Lorimer: 00:29:57

there isn't a lot of dopamine in discipline and consistency is

Jessica Lorimer: 00:30:01

understanding and connecting to the goal. Why am I doing it? I

Jessica Lorimer: 00:30:06

think that over time, we've seen so many iterations and ideas

Jessica Lorimer: 00:30:11

around like, connect your goal, connect your big vision. And

Jessica Lorimer: 00:30:14

lots of people have different methods that work for them. If

Jessica Lorimer: 00:30:17

you want a vision board, if you're somebody who journals, if

Jessica Lorimer: 00:30:19

you're somebody who has a really good morning routine, maybe

Jessica Lorimer: 00:30:22

somebody who meditates To be honest, I don't really care what

Jessica Lorimer: 00:30:26

it is that you do. It's just that daily repetitive thing that

Jessica Lorimer: 00:30:31

sets you up for success. For me, specifically, it's about time

Jessica Lorimer: 00:30:36

blocking, and about working in the right way for me, so I'm

Jessica Lorimer: 00:30:39

somebody who works really well in the morning, that's when I

Jessica Lorimer: 00:30:41

can get emails done. It's when I think, at my most clear, and

Jessica Lorimer: 00:30:47

it's when I can work on my own business with clarity. In the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:30:51

afternoons, I'm much better at emotional connection. It's much

Jessica Lorimer: 00:30:55

easier for me to have meetings, it's much easier for me to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:30:58

deliver trainings, I've got a lot more patients are answering

Jessica Lorimer: 00:31:00

questions and things because it's almost like my brain has

Jessica Lorimer: 00:31:03

had a chance to

Lee Griffith: 00:31:04

hence why we've been really having this

Lee Griffith: 00:31:06

conversation in the afternoon.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:31:09

This is prime just emotional time. But it is

Jessica Lorimer: 00:31:12

that kind of thing, isn't it? And it's understanding how you

Jessica Lorimer: 00:31:15

work. And when you work best and almost quantity I used to call

Jessica Lorimer: 00:31:19

it five years ago, they call it performance hacking, which I

Jessica Lorimer: 00:31:21

thought was ridiculous, because in corporate, nobody talks about

Jessica Lorimer: 00:31:24

that. But actually, I can go with it as a term now. It's

Jessica Lorimer: 00:31:27

about understanding and playing to your strengths.

Lee Griffith: 00:31:30

I call it self leadership. Oh, well, is that

Lee Griffith: 00:31:34

it's you can't lead others unless you lead yourself. And

Lee Griffith: 00:31:37

part of that is your systems and your own processes, your

Lee Griffith: 00:31:40

boundaries, all of that kind of stuff.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:31:42

Exactly. And that's exactly it. I think when

Jessica Lorimer: 00:31:45

we talk about consistency, sometimes it's about just

Jessica Lorimer: 00:31:48

saying, okay, look, I don't want to sit there and do lead

Jessica Lorimer: 00:31:50

generation everyday, nobody in sales does honest to God, like

Jessica Lorimer: 00:31:53

it's a lot of copy and paste, you'll know this, you know, it's

Jessica Lorimer: 00:31:56

a lot of measuring your metrics, it's a lot of looking on

Jessica Lorimer: 00:31:59

LinkedIn, and identifying people, it's a lot of rejection,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:32:02

if we're honest. However, it's also if we look at the flip

Jessica Lorimer: 00:32:07

side, a lot of connection, it's a lot of relationship building,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:32:11

it's a lot of things that can end up playing out really well

Jessica Lorimer: 00:32:13

for us in terms of revenue, productivity, being able to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:32:17

deliver the things that we want to deliver, connecting with the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:32:20

people we want to work with, I think we have to always connect

Jessica Lorimer: 00:32:23

it to whatever that bigger goal is going to be. And understand

Jessica Lorimer: 00:32:26

that we don't have to like it, there are hobbies outside of

Jessica Lorimer: 00:32:30

work that should be motivating you, there are things in your

Jessica Lorimer: 00:32:33

life that you should be doing that are far more enjoyable than

Jessica Lorimer: 00:32:37

working. doing the work and showing up consistently every

Jessica Lorimer: 00:32:41

day is just helping you to achieve those things, you know,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:32:44

in your evenings and your weekends and your time off.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:32:46

Whatever that might look like.

Lee Griffith: 00:32:47

I really like that reframe. Because I think often

Lee Griffith: 00:32:51

we can get caught up in the I feel like everything I do needs

Lee Griffith: 00:32:56

to have meaning and purpose. And actually, the meaning and

Lee Griffith: 00:32:59

purpose is the big picture stuff. And sometimes you got to

Lee Griffith: 00:33:03

take little steps, which could be boring and can be a bit kind

Lee Griffith: 00:33:06

of soul destroying at times.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:33:09

But I do them because I pay my mortgage by

Jessica Lorimer: 00:33:13

living in my house. So we those things and whatever is the same

Jessica Lorimer: 00:33:17

with anything. I think if you look for motivation all the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:33:19

time, you spend so much time looking to be motivated, that

Jessica Lorimer: 00:33:23

you actually miss out on it when it's eventually there. Because

Jessica Lorimer: 00:33:25

your brain is so tired from motivation, you end up not doing

Jessica Lorimer: 00:33:29

the things you just have more big ideas and big dreams and big

Jessica Lorimer: 00:33:32

goals that don't actually ever get implemented.

Lee Griffith: 00:33:35

Yeah. Can we touch on rejection? Oh, yeah. So it's

Lee Griffith: 00:33:39

something that you deal with a lot in sales. It's a bit you

Lee Griffith: 00:33:42

talk about a lot and you talk a lot about the mindset work that

Lee Griffith: 00:33:46

you have to do. So you don't derail yourself every time you

Lee Griffith: 00:33:49

get a no. And obviously, rejection happens in leadership

Lee Griffith: 00:33:52

too. So not everyone's gonna like you not everyone's going to

Lee Griffith: 00:33:55

agree with your plans. You might not always get that job or that

Lee Griffith: 00:33:58

contract or whatever it is that you really want. What advice

Lee Griffith: 00:34:02

would you offer to someone who struggles with that side of the

Lee Griffith: 00:34:06

role?

Jessica Lorimer: 00:34:07

If you never want to be rejected, you have to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:34:10

accept you're always gonna be very bad at your job. Yeah, is

Jessica Lorimer: 00:34:13

my advice. Top performers will see more rejection than average

Jessica Lorimer: 00:34:17

performers or low performers. And that sucks. Most top

Jessica Lorimer: 00:34:21

performers do not love being rejected because the dichotomy

Jessica Lorimer: 00:34:25

there is if you are a top performer, you are somebody

Jessica Lorimer: 00:34:28

who's used to doing really well. And rejection stings. There is

Jessica Lorimer: 00:34:31

nothing that is ever going to take the edge off of that. And

Jessica Lorimer: 00:34:34

there is nothing that anyone can say to you that will ever make

Jessica Lorimer: 00:34:38

rejection easier, which is why we all fear it. I think, though,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:34:42

that the way on the way that I look at it is the more

Jessica Lorimer: 00:34:45

rejections I have, the more yeses I'm also going to have

Jessica Lorimer: 00:34:50

because it means I'm putting myself out there. So for every

Jessica Lorimer: 00:34:53

no I get I know that there's another yes right around the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:34:55

corner. And I also don't take it personally. Rejection in some

Jessica Lorimer: 00:34:59

cases. is very personal. I am the woman who left once a three

Jessica Lorimer: 00:35:03

minute voice note for a man who I was dating who I'd been on two

Jessica Lorimer: 00:35:06

dates with him both dates reporting, so should have gone

Jessica Lorimer: 00:35:08

second one. But when he messaged me to say, would you come out

Jessica Lorimer: 00:35:12

and another day I left him the voice note of how I just used

Jessica Lorimer: 00:35:16

the word transparently 17 times and my friend Lauren was a

Jessica Lorimer: 00:35:19

pause, I left in this voicemail, voicemail, I was really clear.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:35:23

These are all the reasons that I don't want to go on another date

Jessica Lorimer: 00:35:26

with you. And in hindsight, in my late 20s, I could have been

Jessica Lorimer: 00:35:29

kinder about that. But I wasn't mean I was clear. And not four

Jessica Lorimer: 00:35:33

months later, after getting this rejection, when I was dating

Jessica Lorimer: 00:35:36

somebody else, this man messaged me and he said, I just don't

Jessica Lorimer: 00:35:39

understand why we didn't work out. Would you like to go on

Jessica Lorimer: 00:35:42

another date? And I was like, No, I refer you to my voicemail.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:35:46

And so I think from that, what I learned is a that not everybody

Jessica Lorimer: 00:35:51

listens when they've been rejected. And B rejection really

Jessica Lorimer: 00:35:53

isn't personal. You know, even if you're dating somebody,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:35:56

you're just not the right fit for them right now. That's kind

Jessica Lorimer: 00:35:58

of it. We often internalize rejection, which is where it

Jessica Lorimer: 00:36:03

becomes personal. we internalize, oh, I didn't get

Jessica Lorimer: 00:36:07

that job, I must not be good enough. Oh, I didn't get that

Jessica Lorimer: 00:36:11

deal. They must hate me, oh, that person didn't pick up my

Jessica Lorimer: 00:36:15

call today. They must not like me for whatever reason. And it's

Jessica Lorimer: 00:36:19

the internalizing of it. That's the issue. A lot of the time,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:36:23

it's just a, this isn't a priority right now, or we don't

Jessica Lorimer: 00:36:26

have budget for that right now. Or we're going to work on this

Jessica Lorimer: 00:36:29

with an internal resource or with an external resource right

Jessica Lorimer: 00:36:32

now. Well, we don't think you're qualified for that. Right now.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:36:35

The operative phrase here is right now, don't believe that

Jessica Lorimer: 00:36:38

there's ever a rejection in business. You know, in personal

Jessica Lorimer: 00:36:42

life, it's very different. But in business, I don't believe

Jessica Lorimer: 00:36:45

that there's a rejection that is an all out, no, I hate you, you

Jessica Lorimer: 00:36:49

will never get that job, make that sale work with us. That's

Jessica Lorimer: 00:36:52

not how the business world works. I think it's a

Jessica Lorimer: 00:36:55

unfortunately, rejection, it just becomes a part of your

Jessica Lorimer: 00:36:59

business life that you should end up celebrating. Because the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:37:02

more of it you have, the more opportunities you are probably

Jessica Lorimer: 00:37:05

winning elsewhere. You know, and the trick is to not let it get

Jessica Lorimer: 00:37:09

you into a vicious cycle of I've lost this one deal, or I've lost

Jessica Lorimer: 00:37:14

this one job, I'm going to lose the others and self sabotaging

Jessica Lorimer: 00:37:19

opportunities. You know, I think that's that's probably what

Jessica Lorimer: 00:37:21

people should worry about a little bit more.

Lee Griffith: 00:37:24

How how'd you know? I mean, obviously, we're

Lee Griffith: 00:37:27

certain things if you've been not offered a job, you're not

Lee Griffith: 00:37:30

going to necessarily go back to them and go 100 million, I think

Lee Griffith: 00:37:33

you need to rethink this. In other situations, it might be an

Lee Griffith: 00:37:36

ongoing dialogue. And so that first No, or that first

Lee Griffith: 00:37:41

opposition might not be the final. So how do you know when

Lee Griffith: 00:37:44

you should keep going with a discussion. And when it's time

Lee Griffith: 00:37:47

to back off?

Jessica Lorimer: 00:37:49

I think it's about feedback. Actually, when

Jessica Lorimer: 00:37:51

we look at rejection, so many people never ask for feedback.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:37:55

And even if we look at the job example, I've had companies

Jessica Lorimer: 00:37:58

who've invited me to be part of their workforce for years. And

Jessica Lorimer: 00:38:03

I've been running my own business for almost 10 years

Jessica Lorimer: 00:38:05

now. And still, they contact me and be like, Are you sure you

Jessica Lorimer: 00:38:09

don't want to come in and do something? My rejection is

Jessica Lorimer: 00:38:12

always it's not the right time, doesn't mean it'll never be the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:38:15

right time. Because my feedback for them is always there

Jessica Lorimer: 00:38:19

building the relationship in the right way. They're never rude.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:38:22

They're never aggressive. They're just every six months or

Jessica Lorimer: 00:38:26

so checking in, how's it going? So I think when we look at

Jessica Lorimer: 00:38:29

rejection and knowing when to continue a conversation or when

Jessica Lorimer: 00:38:33

to push, it's about what feedback do we have? Is it that

Jessica Lorimer: 00:38:37

we just didn't answer the questions in an interview? If

Jessica Lorimer: 00:38:42

that's the case, is there an opportunity to redo? And when

Jessica Lorimer: 00:38:45

you've got that feedback, is there an opportunity to redo

Jessica Lorimer: 00:38:48

that situation? Maybe, or maybe not, with other things that are

Jessica Lorimer: 00:38:51

simpler, like winning or losing a deal? If you lose a deal in

Jessica Lorimer: 00:38:55

sales world, you always ask why. And you are clear that it's a

Jessica Lorimer: 00:38:58

relationship building exercise. Hey, I'm, I'm really sorry, we

Jessica Lorimer: 00:39:01

won't be working together on this occasion. Can I ask for

Jessica Lorimer: 00:39:05

your feedback, so that next time, I can make sure that we

Jessica Lorimer: 00:39:09

give you the right solution. Because we just want to keep

Jessica Lorimer: 00:39:12

building relationships with people. There's never really a

Jessica Lorimer: 00:39:15

rejection that you wouldn't want to it's just making sure that

Jessica Lorimer: 00:39:18

you get the feedback and then that you respond appropriately

Jessica Lorimer: 00:39:20

to that.

Lee Griffith: 00:39:22

I'm conscious of

Lee Griffith: 00:39:23

our time, but I do want to touch briefly and we've talked a

Lee Griffith: 00:39:27

little bit about your ADHD diagnosis. I mean, you've you're

Lee Griffith: 00:39:31

a leader of your own businesses, very successful business. And

Lee Griffith: 00:39:35

you do that whilst you've been open about the fact that you've

Lee Griffith: 00:39:38

got ADHD and you've also got a long term condition as well. And

Lee Griffith: 00:39:41

I'm sure there's many people listening and Me included who

Lee Griffith: 00:39:45

are facing similar situations, would perhaps welcome your

Lee Griffith: 00:39:49

insights. Yeah, and I suppose prove that it's possible to

Lee Griffith: 00:39:53

still successfully lead what's been your learning as you've

Lee Griffith: 00:39:57

kind of worked through your diagnosis and had to adapt up

Lee Griffith: 00:40:00

how you run your business.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:40:02

I for those who listening who don't know about

Jessica Lorimer: 00:40:05

my health background, I was diagnosed with my Yogic and

Jessica Lorimer: 00:40:07

capsulitis, when I was 2423 24, the consultant who diagnosed me

Jessica Lorimer: 00:40:14

because it's a really difficult condition, and has lots of

Jessica Lorimer: 00:40:17

umbrella conditions that go with it, like osteo, arthritis and

Jessica Lorimer: 00:40:21

chronic fatigue, and all that kind of good stuff. The

Jessica Lorimer: 00:40:23

consultant who diagnosed me said, if I didn't do something

Jessica Lorimer: 00:40:25

to change my life, I would be in a wheelchair, but the time is

Jessica Lorimer: 00:40:29

35. And that was terrifying, you know, at that age, and I am 34,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:40:34

in Oh, 10 days. So by the time you guys listen to this, I'll be

Jessica Lorimer: 00:40:39

30 for a bit. But I'm first four in 10 days, and I'm not in a

Jessica Lorimer: 00:40:42

wheelchair, and I ran the London Marathon in 2021. And I've done

Jessica Lorimer: 00:40:46

other things that I didn't think I'd be able to do, I made the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:40:49

decision to give up my job, because my working hours in a

Jessica Lorimer: 00:40:55

sales capacity were 70 plus hours a week, and it just wasn't

Jessica Lorimer: 00:40:59

viable for my health. I will say starting a business is also not

Jessica Lorimer: 00:41:04

a small endeavor. So I don't think I went from doing 70 hour

Jessica Lorimer: 00:41:08

weeks to doing 10 hours a week because I feel like actually I

Jessica Lorimer: 00:41:11

probably ended up doing more, especially for the first six to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:41:13

12 months, why will say is that I learned much better

Jessica Lorimer: 00:41:18

boundaries. And that helped me manage my condition in a much

Jessica Lorimer: 00:41:22

better way. So I haven't had a flare up in four years. And I

Jessica Lorimer: 00:41:25

used to be bedridden for like six weeks at a time, my body

Jessica Lorimer: 00:41:27

just wouldn't do anything. I put that down to having stronger

Jessica Lorimer: 00:41:32

boundaries. And being able to say no, actually, I can't take

Jessica Lorimer: 00:41:36

on this project now. And pushing back on clients who want things

Jessica Lorimer: 00:41:41

immediately. But actually, just if I did them immediately, would

Jessica Lorimer: 00:41:46

completely put me at risk of burnout. The worst thing about

Jessica Lorimer: 00:41:51

that, and saying that Oh, and putting those boundaries place

Jessica Lorimer: 00:41:54

is that people don't actually mind. And I used to really freak

Jessica Lorimer: 00:41:58

out as somebody who's very type A and be like, Oh God, but if I

Jessica Lorimer: 00:42:00

say no to this piece of work, they'll go elsewhere. Or if I

Jessica Lorimer: 00:42:03

say that I can't help that person, they'll really dislike

Jessica Lorimer: 00:42:06

me and that all you know, reduce my chances of being promoted and

Jessica Lorimer: 00:42:09

things. And actually, what I've learned is that if you have

Jessica Lorimer: 00:42:12

strong boundaries that you implement compassionately,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:42:17

people are very happy to support you in that saying to people,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:42:21

yes, I'd love to work on that project with you. Unfortunately,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:42:25

my diary will only let me dedicate that amount of time to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:42:29

you in X number of weeks, how can we make this work is very

Jessica Lorimer: 00:42:34

different than saying, you will have to work around my schedule,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:42:37

I am too good. Too busy to take on this work with you. And so I

Jessica Lorimer: 00:42:42

think the key really is have those boundaries, deliver them

Jessica Lorimer: 00:42:45

compassionately, be aware that you can't win everything, and

Jessica Lorimer: 00:42:48

that that's fine. And also learn to be selfish. I think it's a

Jessica Lorimer: 00:42:52

trait with anyone who's experienced any kind of burnout

Jessica Lorimer: 00:42:56

is that selfish is this dirty word. And unfortunately, you

Jessica Lorimer: 00:43:00

know, your idea of self leadership is perfect, right?

Jessica Lorimer: 00:43:02

You have to be self centered, if you want to build the career

Jessica Lorimer: 00:43:07

that you want, and also have the health that you need. I'm gonna

Jessica Lorimer: 00:43:12

wax on about how we only get one body and blah, blah, blah, there

Jessica Lorimer: 00:43:14

are plenty of health experts who will tell you all that kind of

Jessica Lorimer: 00:43:16

stuff. And I'm not a health expert. But I do believe that we

Jessica Lorimer: 00:43:21

should be making more self centered choices, and

Jessica Lorimer: 00:43:24

understanding, particularly if you work for an organization

Jessica Lorimer: 00:43:27

that you are not indispensable, and that you shouldn't ever try

Jessica Lorimer: 00:43:31

to be as elite. The whole point of leading is that you empower

Jessica Lorimer: 00:43:35

other people to build something bigger than you. A lot of the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:43:40

issues that I had were that I was building something that was

Jessica Lorimer: 00:43:44

mainly driven by me that I was the the main driving force

Jessica Lorimer: 00:43:48

behind and that I didn't believe or let anyone else help me

Jessica Lorimer: 00:43:52

because I didn't think anyone else could do it the way that I

Jessica Lorimer: 00:43:55

could. And in doing that, ultimately, I did a lot of

Jessica Lorimer: 00:44:00

things a lot smaller, I could have probably progressed a lot

Jessica Lorimer: 00:44:03

quicker in certain areas, if I had been open to relinquishing

Jessica Lorimer: 00:44:07

some of the control. That I think is a lesson that all

Jessica Lorimer: 00:44:10

leaders need, you know, the master leaders know how to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:44:12

empower their best people to do their best work. That's

Jessica Lorimer: 00:44:16

something I learned, I don't know 10 years too late. And it's

Jessica Lorimer: 00:44:20

something that I really really hold close now.

Lee Griffith: 00:44:23

If you had to change a suppose for type of

Lee Griffith: 00:44:29

support you put around you to help fund now.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:44:32

Yeah, massively I think I'm a typical impulsive

Jessica Lorimer: 00:44:35

like ADHD person. I'm really good with ideas. I have tons of

Jessica Lorimer: 00:44:39

ideas and and the things that I'm passionate about, you know,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:44:41

my sales training, I love second spend hours doing it and I never

Jessica Lorimer: 00:44:45

get bored and it's just the best thing ever asked me to fill out

Jessica Lorimer: 00:44:49

an Excel spreadsheet or sit down with an accountant for an hour

Jessica Lorimer: 00:44:52

and I honestly I'm just itching to get up. So for me, it was

Jessica Lorimer: 00:44:58

about finding people who were solid implemented in the areas

Jessica Lorimer: 00:45:01

that I wasn't? Yeah, I'm good at building the vision, I'm good at

Jessica Lorimer: 00:45:05

doing the delivery of the things I love. Do I want to sit down

Jessica Lorimer: 00:45:09

and go through every tax report from DDOT? No, absolutely not do

Jessica Lorimer: 00:45:14

I want to sit down and go through all our social media

Jessica Lorimer: 00:45:16

posts and see who's liked things like that, it's just not for me.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:45:21

So building those teams of people. And for me, that looks

Jessica Lorimer: 00:45:24

like having a really good assistant, having really good

Jessica Lorimer: 00:45:27

people in our customer care team, having really good people

Jessica Lorimer: 00:45:30

around who can look at the finances, and who are willing to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:45:33

work in the way that I do. I don't want endless emails with

Jessica Lorimer: 00:45:37

lots of big blocks of text, because I won't read it. But if

Jessica Lorimer: 00:45:40

you put things in bullet points, or you record me a short loom

Jessica Lorimer: 00:45:42

video, cool, I can do those things. And it will work. I

Jessica Lorimer: 00:45:47

think that's what leaders need to be looking for is hire the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:45:50

people that you can impart some wisdom to, and also can work

Jessica Lorimer: 00:45:54

with you and your idiosyncrasies, because we will

Jessica Lorimer: 00:45:56

have them. Yeah.

Lee Griffith: 00:45:57

And it's about having awareness of where your

Lee Griffith: 00:46:01

superpowers are, and where perhaps you do need a boost to

Lee Griffith: 00:46:05

someone else's energy to fill those gaps, because you'll waste

Lee Griffith: 00:46:10

so much time or you procrastinate and avoid the big

Lee Griffith: 00:46:13

stuff that you need to be doing. Absolutely,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:46:15

I mean, look, we've all got to do lists are

Jessica Lorimer: 00:46:17

about a mile long. I say that because in sales, I email loads

Jessica Lorimer: 00:46:21

of people, and everyone's really busy all the time I get it.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:46:24

We're all in that. That kind of state. I think the pandemic

Jessica Lorimer: 00:46:28

especially showed us that leaders who were isolated,

Jessica Lorimer: 00:46:31

really struggled and a lot more difficult, because suddenly they

Jessica Lorimer: 00:46:36

weren't in control. They didn't have the normal coping

Jessica Lorimer: 00:46:38

strategies of people being in the office and be able to say to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:46:41

that person, have you done that thing, and watch them as they

Jessica Lorimer: 00:46:45

send the email micromanagers really took a hit. And I think

Jessica Lorimer: 00:46:50

that that's been really valuable. But it's a really

Jessica Lorimer: 00:46:51

difficult lesson to maintain, as we will migrate back into

Jessica Lorimer: 00:46:55

offices and things because old habits just slip in. I think

Jessica Lorimer: 00:46:59

that we have to learn to a build our team in the right way and be

Jessica Lorimer: 00:47:03

respect them to do the things that we're paying them to do and

Jessica Lorimer: 00:47:07

let them get on with it and let them innovate in their own way.

Lee Griffith: 00:47:10

Yeah, that totally goes back to your point about

Lee Griffith: 00:47:13

boundaries. So it's not only the boundaries of how you are

Lee Griffith: 00:47:16

interacting with people, but it's about protecting other

Lee Griffith: 00:47:19

people's boundaries, and their work, and all of that. Because

Lee Griffith: 00:47:23

if you're not showing respect to other people's, how can you

Lee Griffith: 00:47:26

expect to have your own? Exactly, and

Jessica Lorimer: 00:47:28

I think the worst thing is everybody hates

Jessica Lorimer: 00:47:31

being a micromanager. And everybody hates working for a

Jessica Lorimer: 00:47:33

micromanager. Unfortunately, I would hazard a guess that most

Jessica Lorimer: 00:47:37

micro managers are just dealing with previous trauma from having

Jessica Lorimer: 00:47:42

not been able to have transparent conversations or

Jessica Lorimer: 00:47:44

being worried about rejection, or all the other things that

Jessica Lorimer: 00:47:47

we've talked about today. And actually, at some point, you

Jessica Lorimer: 00:47:51

just have to learn to let go a little bit and let other people

Jessica Lorimer: 00:47:55

prove what they can do on their own terms, and be okay with the

Jessica Lorimer: 00:48:00

fact that the people that you manage, and the people you lead

Jessica Lorimer: 00:48:03

will probably be more successful than you quicker than you ever

Jessica Lorimer: 00:48:07

have been. And that that's the complement to who you are and to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:48:10

your leadership, you know, not competitive

Lee Griffith: 00:48:12

element. I love that. So my final question is,

Lee Griffith: 00:48:17

what's the one piece of advice or sales advice that you wish

Lee Griffith: 00:48:21

every leader would pay attention to?

Jessica Lorimer: 00:48:25

In the words of Nike, I wish that they would

Jessica Lorimer: 00:48:27

just do it. Sales is one of those things, it doesn't get any

Jessica Lorimer: 00:48:30

easier. It can be a lot simpler. But it doesn't get any easier to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:48:34

face rejection, it doesn't get any easier to consistently try

Jessica Lorimer: 00:48:38

and work on your campaigns. What gets better, is the fact that if

Jessica Lorimer: 00:48:44

you just keep doing the right activities, regardless of how

Jessica Lorimer: 00:48:49

motivated you feel or not, you will start to see results and

Jessica Lorimer: 00:48:52

you cultivate that virtuous cycle of great we're starting to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:48:56

see results, we should do more of this work. And then you do

Jessica Lorimer: 00:48:59

more of the work and you see more of the results. So I don't

Jessica Lorimer: 00:49:02

think it's about anything hugely philosophical, or academic. It's

Jessica Lorimer: 00:49:06

just crack on. Do the thing consistently get better results.

Lee Griffith: 00:49:12

Yeah. I love that. Thank you. So if people want to

Lee Griffith: 00:49:16

get in touch, follow you. I know you put some great stuff on

Lee Griffith: 00:49:20

LinkedIn. I'm like, super fan of your podcast as well. How can

Lee Griffith: 00:49:26

people kind of follow and get in touch?

Jessica Lorimer: 00:49:28

Yeah, if you're interested in sales, and you're

Jessica Lorimer: 00:49:31

working in a corporate environment, you want advice for

Jessica Lorimer: 00:49:34

your sales team. We have a corporate podcast called

Jessica Lorimer: 00:49:37

marginal gains maximum profit, so you can go and listen to my

Jessica Lorimer: 00:49:40

dulcet tones over there. And also my epic co host as well.

Jessica Lorimer: 00:49:43

And if you're somebody who's thinking about making a break

Jessica Lorimer: 00:49:46

from the corporate world, you can check out the selling to

Jessica Lorimer: 00:49:48

corporate podcast if you think that there is ever a risk that

Jessica Lorimer: 00:49:51

you may need to sell your own services or products. You can

Jessica Lorimer: 00:49:55

always check out the tips and tricks there as well. Brilliant.

Lee Griffith: 00:49:58

Thank you. So much of your time. If you enjoyed

Lee Griffith: 00:50:01

this episode, please let me know on Apple podcasts or on app of

Lee Griffith: 00:50:05

choice and drop me a line over on LinkedIn. You can find me at

Lee Griffith: 00:50:08

Lee Griffith. I'll be back with the next episode in two weeks

Lee Griffith: 00:50:12

time. So in the meantime, remember to sign up to my

Lee Griffith: 00:50:15

newsletter at Sundayskies.com for further insights on how to

Lee Griffith: 00:50:18

lead with impact. Until next time.