Do you want to conquer your fear of failure and embrace new challenges in the workplace? 

In the latest episode of the Happier at Work podcast, I had an inspiring conversation with Marta Smullen, a finance professional and host of the "Invisible TO Visible" podcast. Marta shares her journey of personal and professional growth as an Irish resident originally from Poland, offering a refreshing perspective on overcoming embarrassment, imposter syndrome, and bias in the workplace. She emphasises the importance of authenticity, self-acceptance, and finding one's "why" in the pursuit of career success, urging listeners to step outside their comfort zones and embrace their true selves.

Marta's insights and experiences will challenge you to reframe your mindset and approach to career growth, ultimately leading to a happier and more fulfilling work life. This episode will help you gain valuable perspectives on navigating challenges, overcoming biases, and unlocking your full potential in the workplace.

The main points throughout this podcast include:

• Embracing authenticity and self-acceptance in professional development.
• The importance of having a clear "why" in pursuing education and career success.
• Overcoming imposter syndrome and fear of failure by understanding personal motivators.
• Fostering workplace cultures where individual differences are celebrated and diversity thrives. 
• Recognising the transformative power of embracing new challenges and opportunities at work.

Connect with Marta 

LinkedIn

Instagram

Connect with Happier at Work host Aoife O’Brien:

Website

LinkedIn 

YouTube

Previous Episodes:

https://happieratwork.ie/62-finding-strength-in-vulnerability-with-paul-walker/

Simon Stapleton on Authenticity at Work (YouTube) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYjzjjW-yM0

Mentioned in this episode:

Imposter Identity

Imposter Identity

Marta, you're so welcome to the happier at work podcast. I know we have been talking about this for a while, so I'm really glad the day has finally arrived for us to be able to do this podcast together. Do you wanna let people know a little bit about you, your career history, what what got you into being interested in things that you're interested in doing today?

Hi, Aoife. So lovely to be here. I was also waiting for to stay impatiently. Thanks very much for having me here. So my name is Marta Smullen, and I am Polish, but I live in Ireland now for nearly half of my life. So I moved here when I was 18. And this September, I'm going to be celebrating 18 years in Ireland.

Wow.

I'm finance professional. I've been in the leadership position now for a good couple of years. And, I came here, as I said, when I was 18, But the but the one thing is I didn't speak any English at all. And one might think, like, how how it came to it and why did I come here. So, in school, I've learned German. And when you're in school, you're kind of focusing on the learn on the on the language you're going to be doing on your living search. So I was doing German. So I didn't really the two phrases I could say was my name is Martis Mullen.

I don't speak English. That was the 2 things I could say.

It's only me, I think, when you're starting it.

Out. Well, as it turns out, that's exactly it.

Yeah.

And I came here because my whole family moved here for economic reasons, really. You know, it's for Yeah. To look for better people

in their life. That time in Ireland's history was a time when there were a lot of Polish people coming to Ireland then or maybe even before then as well.

Yeah. My my dad came here, I think, 2 years before me. He was the first one to immigrate, and he came in, like, 2 months before the borders open. So, that was the time when everyone was, everyone was moving to Ireland. And then my family slowly followed. I was the last one. I was really, really, really, really, really didn't want to do it. And nobody really forced me.

Yeah.

But I I I kind of I didn't wanna stay on my own. I was afraid to stay on my own in Poland, so I decided to come here to Ireland. I was really unhappy about it. Mhmm. At first, I'm really glad that I did. I'm really glad that

we're glad 18 years later. Yeah. Amazing. I know.

Oh, we all still hear we all still hear, Irish citizens at this point.

Mhmm. And I know one of the things that we wanted to touch on on today's podcast was this idea of English not being your first language or at the very least, arriving in Ireland without a word of English or with 2 key phrases that kinda caught you by. Like, I don't speak English. So, yeah. But I suppose I'd love to understand more about that experience that you had of coming to another place without the language. And now 18 almost 18 years later, really successful career behind you. And clearly, you can speak English really, really well. So talk to me a little bit about that journey.

It's been a long journey. It's been a very difficult journey. The good thing is and I don't wanna jump straight to a conclusion on this. But the the good thing about it is that it's all our mindset and how we position ourselves, with the steps we want to take, how much we want to challenge ourselves, and how much we wanna put ourselves outside our comfort zone. So when I came here, as I said, I didn't speak any English. I've give given myself 1 year to study it, and then I went to college. And, again, I was still very, very, very bad at it, but I had to put myself aside my controls comfort zone. And, also, I had to get education.

I knew it. That was the key. When I came here as an 18 year old, I just finished my living cert in in Poland, and I knew that I need to carry on with my education. I need to get her level of education. So I got my degree, then I moved on, did my chartered, exams for accountancy, which I'm really, really glad I did. I found myself a first job. And, you know, that thing is one of those things that you probably don't see how much you're improving, but you just have to kind of 18 years now, I'm looking at it. I'm like, oh, actually, I'm not that bad at it.

But it didn't it didn't happen. It's it's a long, very long process

Mhmm.

Whereby you just nearly have to power through, and you just need to try new things, apply for new jobs, and just put that aside. I think at certain point, I made a very conscious decision to blend myself within the Irish culture and try to not to close myself within the Polish culture. Because as you said, there was a lot of Polish people came over, and at that time, it was very easy to to, you know, work with Polish people. It was leave with Polish peoples, only speak in Polish, go only to Polish shops, and and things like that. And I consciously was challenging myself to really get new friends. You know, I was 18. I was a teenager, really. I was, like, get new friends, and they needed to be speaking English.

Like, they couldn't be couldn't be Polish. Like, I didn't mind if they were Irish, or I didn't mind where they were from as long as it forced me to speak English. I've joined a gym gym gym gym. You see, there you go. There's my English kicking in, where I had to go in and I had to speak English. So it's that idea of forcing yourself Yeah. Into it.

Yeah. So putting yourself in the situations where you have to speak the language, basically. And, like, I suppose for anyone listening, this applies because this is a global audience. It's not just in Ireland, but I'm sure there's a lot of people living in Ireland who don't have English as their first language and who have those same types of experiences. And I know certainly from all of the travels that I've done and the tendency to stick with other Irish people because it's something that's familiar and you can speak the same language and you get the same jokes and the same references and things like that, the the temptation to do something like that is really strong. Now that I'm living most of my time in Tenerife and I'm speaking Spanish all the time, I'm in at the deep end as well. And it is that feeling of like, I remember when I first started learning languages back in university, I was just so self conscious and so embarrassed, and I'm such a perfectionist that I was, like, thinking of the grammar in my head before saying something rather than just trying to get my point across, just trying to communicate in some way with the additional use of, like, now I'm like, well, I'll use my hand gestures as well to try and, like, this is what I'm trying to say. But, really, the focus should be on the point that you're trying to make as opposed to saying the exact words in exactly the right order in the correct pronunciation and and the right way.

I think we have a tendency well, me, certainly, as a perfectionist, the tendency to focus so much on getting it right rather than communicating the message.

Absolutely. And I think you touched there on the the the embarrassment, and that's exactly anyone who have been in my shoes or lived at and you did as well, you know, as as an Irish person living in Spain, knows that feeling when you walk into a room and you're thinking, oh, gosh. What do I say? How do I say it? Do they understand me? And you know when people don't understand you, they might be smiling and nodding, but you know when they don't understand you. You know that feeling

No further questions. Sorry. Yeah. You're like, okay. I understand. No further questions required.

And I remember thinking to myself, like, oh god. I just I I know I'm much smarter. I know I'm much funnier. I'm not coming across the way I want to come across. And and you need to really get rid of that. Do you know this this phrase, embarrassment is a cost of entry? It's really, really the truth. You with everything, we really try our it's it's in our nature to try our best. But I think this idea of dropping the perfectionist and dropping this guard down and being a little bit I'm just going to go and do my best and talk with my hands like that.

Yeah. You know, it's it's quite it's really what needs to be done because you can't master something without being bad at it first.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's impossible. Mhmm. I look at my children now, and they're 63. And they just I just I'm trying to learn from them how to approach things. And this is really relevant also learning a language. It's like they just try and they and they try again and they try again. And then they then they succeed. And they're, like, happy that they succeeded.

They don't dwell on the 10 times it didn't work out. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's important here too. Like, don't dwell on times when you said something wrong and you embarrassed yourself. So be it. Nobody dies. Just just just move on.

And my 22 year old self couldn't know that. Yeah. You know?

Absolutely. But I tell you a funny story. I was, in my early twenties. So when I came to Ireland, I I had braces. I put braces in, and I was seeing I was at the orthodontist office, like, on the orthodontist place, like, you know, every month or every 2 months for, like, 2 years. And I randomly met him, like, I think a month ago. And I just, you know, wave being myself. I'm like, hi.

How are you doing? And he the first thing he said, he's like, Jesus. Your English got so much better.

Yeah. And so funny, isn't it? To me.

And I'm like, okay. So I actually don't realize how it was back then because now and I think often as as I I'm going to refer to Polish people who live in Ireland. But in generally speaking, when you live in a country when where you don't speak your native language, you often think to yourself, when my English is better, I do this. Yeah. If my English gets better, I apply for that promotion or apply for that job.

Yeah.

I don't know whether if and when is coming. Because if you are the georgia of it, I think we we could be the biggest critics of ourselves. Mhmm. And that if and when might not be coming. And it's not really the language is the problem here is your mindset. And that's what you need to really change is the mindset that you need to change, not the language. It's it's it's it's probably if you can communicate, you can you can do the job.

So Yeah. Yeah.

I would be really in kind of trying to think about it of of trying to change the mindset rather than you can always keep improving on your skills, but you really need to think about it differently.

Yeah. And I think, Marta, everything that you're saying can be applied across the board. So this whole embarrassment and trying and then failing in in our own kind of thoughts, we're like, oh, I've you were dwelling on some mistake that we've made or whatever that might be. This applies, like, not just when you're speaking a language or learning a new language or trying to communicate with someone. This applies with everything that we're doing. And then the same, we hold ourselves back. I'll be happy when something happens. I'll be happy when I get the promotion.

I'll be happy or I'll apply for that job when I feel more confident. I'll apply for that. And it's always worth deferring to the future. But, actually, if you want something now, what steps do you need to take right now in order to make that a reality? And, you know, like what you were saying, you don't have to have the language so long as you can communicate. There probably are some jobs where you have to have technical language or you have to have a really good grasp of English. But for the most part, I think you can at least get started with looking for something when you don't. And, again, this is not just about language. This can be for any sale skills, whether they're technical skills, whether they are, soft skills or critical skills, whatever you want to call them.

It just start now. Basically, just get going.

And the failure there you touched there on failure, and I I've thought about it a lot recently. It's I think I'm I'm reaching some sort of midlife crisis or something, and I I think about it a lot. And what the way I'm trying to approach things now and, again, I wish I knew it when I was 20 or thought about it in a way in that way when I was 20. But what are we actually fearful of? Because are we fearing to fail, or are we failing to are we fear fearing to fail in front of others and that people will see us? And if I were to say that you can try this one thing you really, really want to try, but nobody will know. Nobody will ever find out whether you failed or not. Would you try it? And I can probably say that most people would say, yes. I will definitely try it. So if that's the case, you're not really fearful of failing.

You are fearing other people seeing you fail. And I every every so often now when I'm approaching this maybe more difficult situation when I have to put myself outside my comfort zone, and that's my new thing. I just put constantly my myself outside my comfort zone now because life is way too short as I'm realizing. So, and if there was anything that I'm like, oh, I don't know. I just think to myself, okay, if nobody was looking, would I try this? And if the answer is yes, then I'm doing it regardless of how scared I am. Yeah. And I think that's a good way of thinking about it. Do you know, even with the language perspective, like, you're not doing that for anyone else.

You're doing that for yourself. Why are you doing this? What's your why? For me, I knew I have to challenge myself, and I have to apply for different jobs, apply for the promotions, take the opportunities that were put in front of me. Because, you know, the reason why Polish people came 20 years ago to Ireland, it wasn't for, you know, for rec rec what's the word? For having fun or anything like that. It was for money. It was simply like that. My parents moved to Ireland simply looking for a better better environment for all of us, for the children, for myself. So I have this thankfully, we never were really bad with money, but it was coming to it. And my my my parents, my dad reacted on time.

But what I'm trying to say, my why was always to never be in this situation. So I knew I have to get myself a good education. I knew I have to go to college, and I knew I have to get myself a good job and be on a decent pay because I never wanted to repeat it repeat that. And I think once you know what your why is or why you're doing it, it's easier to do it. Because if the why is, you know, it's that important to you, then the the cost of embarrassment, it's it's kind of minimum the cost of embarrassment is kind of small it gets smaller and smaller, you know, the fear of that.

Yeah. There's so many things that you're you're talking about there that are just kind of so relevant for what I talk about as well. And if I think about imposter syndrome specifically and how we're so afraid of how other people perceive us, like, it's one of our deep seated fears, I think, of how we are perceived by other people. And interestingly, there is a podcast that I recorded at the time of this recording that hasn't yet been released yet, but we look into the enneagram and the the foundation of what our motivators are at work or in life. And I think from my discussion, with Ronan, it's the same Ronan Gallagher, The perfectionism is really coming through. And it's like, it's anything that's not done right is perceived as a failure. And so in front of the eyes of others, I think that I will look like a failure if I don't get everything 100% right. And different people will have different motivators or different triggers for them that make them do the kinds of things that they do.

But I love this idea of having a why behind everything that you're doing. And, you know, building on the point that we were talking about earlier about taking action and and not not waiting until a certain time. And oftentimes, we think we're gonna feel confident before we take action, or we're gonna feel motivated before we take action. But, actually, those come as byproducts of taking action. You need to take the action first. You might have some setbacks rather than failures. So things that you learn along the way, but it's all part of a journey. And there is no dichotomy of success and failure.

It's all like, here's a setback. Okay. What will I do differently the next time? How do I get back on track? Or what can I learn from this experience? But coming back to this idea of why and why do you take that action to begin with, it's so important to understand that and to find what that means for you. And I love that you have that deep seated, like, I never want to be in this situation ever. So this is why I'm pushing myself out of my comfort zone. This is why I am applying for those jobs. This is why I'm improving my English, surrounding myself with English speakers rather than just polar speakers. So I think trying to tap into that for each individual person to know, okay, why is it that I'm trying to achieve what it is I'm I'm trying to achieve? Knowing that, I think I'm being able to take those steps with that knowledge is so, so important.

Yeah. Absolutely. It's I I only recently thought about like, gave any thinking to it. And I think when I I had my own kids, I've realized how difficult it has been for my parents to do it. You know, I I up to that point, I didn't really I I knew what they I knew why they did it, but I never even consider how difficult it was for them. And when when that's it it was did they have a choice to do it differently? Probably. There was always a choice, but it was one of the most difficult choices to take at that point. But the one that was the most guaranteed in a way, you know, 20 years ago.

So, yeah, definitely. There was there was really everything is why, I think. Yeah. Everything is why. It helps when you do anything

else that you can do with yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Simon Sinek is big into the finding your why. Like, what is at the core of what you do and why you do it? I know we touched on before we started recording this idea of prejudice and bias that exists. So when you're looking to grow your career, when you're looking to progress, when you're looking to apply for new jobs, and the type of, bias, I think and it's it's whether it's unconscious or not, like, to me, I'd argue that if you're looking at someone's name and you're like, that's not an Irish sounding name, not gonna interview that person or whatever the case might be. That's not unconscious. Right? That's like a conscious decision that I'm deliberately not gonna interview that person.

Yeah. Maybe to be fair, it is unconscious on some people's behalf because they're like, I don't know how to say that. So, yeah. Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that type of experience that you had.

Thankfully, my experience been has been quite positive. Whether I wasn't invited to for interview because my name now with Martha Smolen Smolen is quite Irish sounding. It's through my husband. But, like, my maiden name is counselor, and that definitely doesn't sound like Irish. Neither do it sounds like Polish. It probably sounds like German, but definitely doesn't sound like Irish. Whether I have not been invited for to to an interview because of my surname, maybe. I don't know.

I'll never find out. But once I once I was invited for an interview and once I was invited for, kind of started the interview process, I always found it very fair. Yeah. I always found it in the workplaces. I also found it very very fair, and I've never felt like I'm being discriminated or it's probably a big word, but there was a bias against me. Now what I will say is and that's in relation to everything, but also the fact that you're not Irish working in Ireland, for example, is it's so important to find the right place Yeah. Where it's it's just so important to find the right place that allows you to be your self. And what I will say to to the question is that not every single not in every single place I felt I can be authentic self.

And Yeah. A lot a huge part of my authenticity comes from being Polish. So not every place I felt like I could be authentic my authentic self. So maybe that is biased. I don't know. But the

You kinda have to cover yourself up or check yourself at the door when you came in. Be a bit more Irish. Yeah.

Oh, what what way do I speak? How do I phrase this? I Irish people are very blunt by very direct. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Irish people might not be as direct. They're definitely not.

Irish people split around what they want to say.

I guess

Expect people to be in the lines. Yeah. Yeah.

So I used to go into boardroom and just be like, well, so what's happening here is this, this, and that. That's what we need to do. And, like, I felt like people, most of the time, were grateful for me actually summarizing it like that. But that's the places that allowed me to be my attending self, and I the 2 places that I've been the most successful in. When I reflect back on them, I do do see that there were the 2 places that I felt the most myself in. And the fact that my difference was celebrated, and it was definitely not used to know. I felt I could do it. I felt like I could just be a 100% myself in those two places, and it always worked in my advantage.

Yeah.

So that's definitely the case. And I always will say it, find your place. And don't be afraid to keep changing and looking until you find it because finding the right place is just helps so much the to fast nearly fast forward that career for you Yeah. Because you just find the right found the right people that understand you, that they don't mind you not being a 100% perfect in Yeah. Do you know? I don't sound when we're in a boardroom, do I sound like an Irish person? No. I don't. Do you know? I'd probably stick to the more simpler language, which is most of the time even better because there was no point overcomplicating things.

Yeah.

So definitely, there is part of that where, you know, they accepted me, and they they they didn't mind me representing their company with my authentic self. And that's that's always paid back both ways the best. Because when you're not your authentic your authentic self and you don't really like it, it doesn't serve you well. It doesn't serve the company well. Yeah. So keep looking until you find it.

Yeah. That's

that's all I say.

I've I've done research on this and and the toll that masking your real self takes. It takes a lot of energy, and it's energy that is diverted from performance at your role because you're masking. You're so busy pretending to be someone else that it takes so much energy. And I love that advice of keep looking. I was so lucky in my career that I found and, you know, I was talking about these earlier today in someone else's podcast, but 2 very specific companies that just had it all right. And I felt like I could be my absolute true self and got recognized for that. There are other places where I felt like I got along very well, but I wasn't necessarily recognized for that, for being myself. So I think what though being in those two companies really taught me was that there are places out there that are a really good fit.

And then subsequently being in organizations that weren't, it's really jarring because you notice a huge difference in the culture or how you feel about yourself. And so I think what I'm trying to say with this is I love what you're saying about just keep looking. If you feel like there's some you're not this is not really the right place for me, keep looking because there's gonna be something else out there where you feel like you can be your really authentic self and that you will be recognized, celebrated, and rewarded for being yourself and what you bring to the table in all your uniqueness. So Yeah. I love that as as a piece of advice.

Absolutely. And I think once you've been in that kind of place, it's hard to accept anything else. Yeah. And I I a 100% agree with you. I also had 2 places where I really, really felt a 100% accepted. That's the 2 places I was the most successful in. Yeah. And, in other places interesting business.

So

It is. Really.

Yeah. Be successful and be yourself at the same time, whereas a lot of people think maybe that they do have to mask themselves in some way, that they have to cover up, that they have to pretend to be someone else, that they have to check themselves at the door. And then when they're rewarded for that, then it reinforces maybe that behavior. So as you progress through the ranks, as you climb the career ladder, you have to do even more masking because you haven't been celebrated for being your authentic self.

Yeah. But it's there is there's a huge credit to the to the senior leadership in those 2 fur firms where they created that environment because I think an employee gives themselves a permission to be outtenting themselves when they feel they're they're in the environment when they can do it. Yeah. And I for for a long time, the I don't know. The 15 years back, I I was trying to pretend I'm I don't know. I don't even know how because, obviously, you know, 15 years ago. Now I can't pretend I'm Irish, let alone the 15 years ago. But for some reason, I thought in order to be successful, I need to act like Irish.

I need to speak like Irish person, act, have the same sense of humor. Although, actually, our sense of humor maybe might just change, and I'm very Irish y now. But it was only until I walked into my 2nd job, which then to now be my long term training practice, where I I don't know what it was. It was led by 2 ladies, and they just created an environment that I felt safe. I didn't felt challenged. I my language didn't feel challenged. I didn't feel like I'm laughed at. I felt, you know, we were had many jokes when I said something funny, and I said many funny things.

I'll tell you them after we stop recording there. But, do you know, it's it it didn't feel like I'm being laughed at. I'm being laughed with, if that makes it was just a it was this feeling of of safe. I feel safe in here. I can just let my guard down. I can be myself. I can ask any question. I can ask them to if there was an important email to send, I would I can ask them to read it, and there'll be no embarrassment in it or try to, you know, help them ask them to help me to phrase something.

It was that feeling I had.

That it's okay. It's okay to ask for help.

Yeah. Absolutely. And then I was really, really lucky in my, one of the jobs when I kind of did that step from manager to senior leader. It was there for 6 years, and that company also created that amazing environment where, you know, I walked into a boardroom not scared. Yeah. Do you know? And when you are doing it not in your native language, it's hard not to be scared.

Yeah.

And I walked into that boardroom not scared, and a huge credit to them, still a great friends of mine. Yeah.

And what what do you think both of those companies did differently? Like, what did those senior leaders do specifically to create that environment?

I think in both companies, when you a lot of times it's just a feeling that I had. I think there was a lot of, diversity on the board. I think there was a lot of there were a lot of people of different ages. There are lots of people of, gender. And, you know, in the second one I've mentioned, there was 7 of us on the leadership team. 2 were owners, so we can count them out. They always will be there. They were amazing.

But there was 5 of us and 3 were women. 2 were men. So there was a lot of that. The the first training practice was the department I was in was also female led. Not to say that men don't create that environment. I'm just saying when we have diversity, I think we are accepting even more diversity because that's what it is. Yeah. So in in in both companies, people not from Ireland where a lot of taking a lot of them, a lot of those positions were occupied by non Irish people.

It was just it was one of those places where your qualification and your skills were more important to where you're from, how old are you Yeah. And where you're from.

Yeah.

Did I say where where are you from twice probably? But, you know, it's just one of those things that you felt that what you know, it's more important. How you approach a problem and how you communicate with your colleagues was much more important than who you know.

Yeah. You

know? It was Yeah. It was one of those things.

Really?

Huge credit to them. And as I said, I'm great friends with with them, and, I'm hoping to keep it like that.

Great. Martie, is there anything else that you want to to get across today that we haven't necessarily covered yet before we wrap things up?

No. Just an advice. Keep it as a journey. Anyone who is in that process, keep it as a journey. I'm still on it. I don't really like the word journey, but, like, keep it on the opposite side.

Journey. It brings up new connotations of some people, I think, but, yeah. Yeah.

It it's a process. Don't self reject yourself. That's the advice number 2, and just keep going. There are plenty of places out there that are very welcoming, and, you will be able to be yourself in it. Yeah. And just keep going.

Yeah.

You'll be you will be surprised what you can do when you actually put your mind to it.

And I think the the big takeaway for me from our conversation is this idea that if you are your authentic self, it actually will help you to fast track your career. You'll actually accelerate your progress by being yourself rather than if you're trying to pretend to be someone or something else that you're not. Marta, the question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happier at work mean to you?

I and I knew you're going to ask me that, so I thought about it. So I'm going just to repeat it or maybe in a shorter shorter version because we talked about it a lot. When when you're working in the organization that allows you to be your authentic self Yeah. That's what happier it means. I think it ticks all the boxes for me when you feel like and I I don't mean safe physically, but safe emotionally. In those places when you're safe when you feel safe and you can you can express yourself, you can ask questions, you can just be yourself. As I said, those are the 2 places I was the happiest in. Definitely.

Brilliant. And if people want to reach out, if they want to connect, want to learn more about what you do, what's the best place they can do that?

So LinkedIn is probably the platform I use the most. So it's it's Marta Smolin in LinkedIn. You can find me there. And also, I I haven't mentioned that, but I have my own podcast as well. And that's the part of coming out of my comfort zone myself as well in the in the last year. I started my own podcast. So anyone who is interested in, I suppose, all the topics around making woman more visible. I invite everyone to find me on Spotify or on Apple Podcasts.

The the the podcast itself is called Invisible TO Visible. It's making woman more visible. That's the team. So you can listen, more to to my voice there.

Brilliant. Love it. Thank you so much for your time today. Thank you so much for sharing those insights that I think will be you really useful for people, not just from a language perspective, but I think generally in a shifting of mindset, stretching, comfort zone, all of that kind of things. I really, really appreciate you sharing your time and wisdom today. Thank you.

Thank you, Aoife.