What do you do when your church doesn't share your heart for evangelism?

In this episode of Gospel Talks, George Binoka and Jeff Musgrave continue their conversation about a pastor's struggle when the church he leads isn't actively reaching the lost.

The answer isn't simply to preach another sermon on evangelism.

Pastors must model it. They must bring people with them, equip them, help them take their first steps, and coach them through the fear and uncertainty that often keeps Christians from engaging their neighbors, coworkers, friends, and family members.

George and Jeff also talk about what happens when a church has developed a negative reputation in its community. How does a church rebuild trust? How long does it take? And what does genuine repentance look like when a church has become known as inward-focused?

From modeling evangelism to praying for open doors, from loving difficult neighbors to rebuilding a church's reputation, this conversation challenges pastors and church members alike to stop talking about evangelism and start living it.

The harvest is still plentiful. The question is whether we are willing to become the laborers God has called us to be.

00:00 Modeling Evangelism in Church Leadership

02:19 The Importance of Training and Equipping

05:11 Overcoming Barriers to Evangelism

07:58 Building Genuine Relationships for Evangelism

10:24 Addressing Community Perceptions of the Church

13:11 Creating Opportunities for Spiritual Conversations

15:51 Rebuilding Church Credibility in the Community

18:14 The Role of Prayer in Evangelism

20:58 Repentance and Changing Church Culture

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This is part two of answering tough questions,

a letter that was written to us by a pastor's wife.

and the idea of these series of episodes,

if you didn't catch the last one,

you need to probably go back to get some context.

But what do you do when your church doesn't share your heart for evangelism?

especially as leaders within the church.

you're probably going to have to listen to each episode in the series

to kind of catch the context. Where we're picking up today is the power

of modeling and modeling evangelism for people.

Welcome.

to Gospel Talks Podcast, where we help Christians all over the world become more

effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.

My name is George Binocka and with me today is Jeff Musgrave,

the author and founder of The Exchange.

Jeff, how you doing?

Great d having a having a good week.

It's been a study week this weekend,

so I've always enjoys being in my study.

That's awesome. that's and exciting stuff you're working on in your study.

some things that we know are coming.

And so very, very excited about that.

Well, picking up in the letter and the email that Erica wrote us,

awesome email, great questions and concerns,

concerns we would share. ~ but we're picking up on this idea of modeling.

Last time we we we left off talking about what is a genuinely evangelistic church

culture look like.

And Erica starts to describe some really practical things they've done there

in that church. Good News Club.

no, we started one here just recently in our church in in the Phoenix area,

FCA, bringing ~ unsaved neighbors into their home and bringing some church members

so they can see that whole interaction,

~ teaching personal evangelism,

which we're all the we're all for that.

but the I guess the question I would want to start with here,

Jeff, as we as we start to kick it off is.

How important is it for pastors to model evangelism rather than simply preach about

it?

Well, I mean, i i in in many respects that's kind of one of those fool these

questions because frankly, we all know it's imperative.

Yeah.

I mean, and I I

think the very when when you see the definition of the various titles for a pastor,

I really believe the main definition for an elder is the the word example.

I mean, you're supposed to be demonstrating what the Christian life is.

I think it's also important

Mm.

for us to remember that shepherds are also sheep.

And

just like all sheep, who we should be reproducing ourselves in our congregation,

we really can't expect anybody else to do anything that we're

not personally doing. ~ when I sit down and talk to pastors about this,

I I try to use a illustration from my own life.

we know the the concept of pace setting.

when I ran my first marathon, I had a goal.

That I wanted to run the marathon in four hours or less.

I didn't care if it was four hours and 59 minutes and 59 seconds.

I just wanted to get

Mm.

under the four hour mark. And ~ I ended up running in in four hours and 12 minutes.

I actually believe I had the physical ability to to to run,

but I I didn't have a pace setter.

In other words, I was a bad pace setter.

I ran way too fast at the beginning of the race.

I got a little frightened that I was using too much energy up,

slowed down way too slow. And and by the time I realized I was behind pace,

I I'd I couldn't catch up. And ~ a pace setter in a in a big race like that

is basically someone who's good at setting a pace,

and they they wear usually balloon just so you can see them from a ways,

and ~ and

All you have to do to be able to get that particular pace is stay with them.

You don't have to you don't have to pace yourself,

you just stay with them. And I think that as pastors,

we have to think to ourselves,

we are the church's pace setters.

We we have to

Mm.

be running the race, we have to be running the race at an appropriate pace.

We have to be trying to help people to come with us.

Yeah, I I totally agree. I mean,

I wouldn't know anything about running ~ marathons.

I've I've run some movie marathons,

but ~ those are the

Yeah.

only kind of marathons I know about.

but but running an ahead leading by example,

definitely an important thing.

~ Paul said, follow me as I follow Christ.

it's not like do as do as I say,

not as I do. That's a terrible philosophy.

Of leadership. And if you're in there are times when a leader has

to make an exception and you know,

~ in terms of typical policy, that there are guidelines in our life,

but that they aren't necessarily the law.

But that that's not the kind of thing we're talking about where it's kind

of like a gray area. We're talking about this is something scriptures commanded

everybody to do. I I've always kind of been curious,

and I I've seen people who teach a lot about evangelism,

and

They're very good pa like they're gifted pastors when it comes to evangelism,

but they don't bring people along with them.

It's kind of like when the church loses them,

it loses the evangelist in the church.

Yeah. Yeah.

~

but can you, I mean, I think probably one of the frustrations they feel

is can you actually teach people to evangelize without having to bring them along?

Can you bring them along without making like the whole interaction awkward or,

you know, how would you what would you what would you say to that?

Well,

I think very first of all, it's not always possible to bring someone to every lunch,

every coffee, every Bible study.

But but it is often possible. And when we can,

it is a powerful training opportunity.

So I think watching for that and looking for those opportunities,

it really does help. ~

Mm.

I think a lot of times you can just ask your ~ friend,

you know, I I I have ~ someone in our church.

that I would love to bring with us.

I'd love for you to get to know them and I think you would enjoy meeting them.

Could could they come and study with us?

And you know, just asking those questions ~

Mm.

usually fixes the the awkwardness of the problem.

And I it really is a very powerful training opportunity.

~ being in the birthing room, so to speak,

watching someone come to Christ,

there's nothing like it.

Yeah, yeah. so how how have you f found a way as a pastor

to take people from, okay, I know I'm supposed to be doing that,

to actually be willing to come along with you,

if you're willing to take them along with you,

how how how do you actually help them into come along with me,

come come do this with me? How do you get them to actually take action

on evangelism?

Well, I ~ the whole idea of the exchange is ~ don't just tell them to do it,

show them how, teach them, give them the tools.

I mean, that's that's really the responsibility of leadership in the church

is to equip the people for the work of the ministry.

And so I we love I mean,

George, I love doing weekend training events where I go into a church and spend six,

six and a half hours.

with a with a group of people inside of that church and just help them to

be able to get the concepts of how to have close relationships with people,

how to get into conversations that go deep,

how to turn conversations to the gospel.

Those are all just you you have to help people know how.

if if it's not possible to have a training event at your church,

it is very possible to use the exchange online.

People can do that as individuals.

There's individual license, there's church license,

having ongoing training so that as new people come in,

they're continuing to train. And and I think that once you have people trained,

because we've watched this happen,

they okay, I know how, but I still can't get started.

Helping them make a plan. I mean,

who who are your fine five? What what are these people like

what what would you think would be a good first step with this person

and just helping them make a plan,

giving them a little bit of an accountability for that first step?

you know, once once most people get into a gospel conversation,

they're gonna do fine on their own.

Mm-hmm.

they don't need coaching every step of the way.

It's getting them started. And I actually think that that's part

of the pastor's responsibility as a coach.

~ is to to help people make plans and then help them to follow their plans.

Hmm. Yeah, I I think you're right.

you know, to add a layer on top of that,

and I I know you're gonna have thoughts about this.

We all know as well, pastors know that the that by studying the sermon yourself,

you get far more from it than anybody else does.

It's like if you ever taught a class,

preparing to teach the class gives you more knowledge and value than even just being

in the class, those that are learning under

Absolutely.

you.

So going and actually doing it and and going to somebody who's got a plan

for you to come along with them and you get to see it and be involved

and actually have an experience in evangelism is far more valuable than just

studying the theory. ~ because you're

Mm-hmm.

you're you're putting something into practice.

I I don't know if you have any any other thoughts about that,

but I think it's so important church members actually be involved.

Yeah, absolutely. No, I think you just said that well and it's it's it's important

~ to I I actually think sometimes getting someone to help teach those classes

if you're running them in a church,

~ is really valuable because as people invest,

they they begin to ~ take action.

Yep. Yeah. Making a peop making somebody a leader in the thing.

Now, I think what Eric is kind of verbalizing here in this in this letter

and what some pastors I know I've heard say is,

Hey, I've modeled it. I've taught it.

I've invited people to participate.

They're still not doing it. what do you say to somebody like that?

You've sat down with a lot of pastors.

What what what do you tell them?

You know, I have a pastor friend who set up a entry Sunday school course

for visitors of their church. So as someone comes

Mm-hmm.

in, he invites them to go to this church and he invites regular church members

who've been in trained in the exchange to attend with.

And then after the class, he says,

You know, the the next thing for you to do is to study this Bible study we have and

You just met so-and-so. Why don't you?

And he literally sets them up for it.

And I I think helping people get into it,

setting them into an environment where in which they are more likely to succeed,

those things are really, really possible and really,

really valuable. ~ I feel like when a person has done it,

then they're gonna want to continue getting better at it.

They're gonna want to do it again.

~ whereas

If

a person hasn't done it, they're they're just a little ~ I mean,

the reason they're stuck is because they're afraid.

they don't know what to do next.

And so if we can help them get over that hurdle,

~ then they're gonna want to do it themselves.

Yeah. I I mean ~ performance anxiety,

right? It's like I had a guy learning how to do the sound booth at

the church here and he's like he wanted to watch a couple times.

And for the guys who have been in that seat and have been doing it all these years,

they're like, Why do you need to watch?

This is so easy. I think we forget how hard it was the first time we did something.

You know, we have this little bit of

Yeah, absolutely.

amnesia, this the the

Yeah.

hurdle to get over. And and so I think we have to remember with evangelism it's

no different. ~

You know, I I found this other part of the email really interesting.

She says, my neighbor you know,

the church there, the people in the church were saying my neighbors wouldn't want

to talk about spiritual things.

what do you say to Christians who say that their neighbors aren't interested

in spiritual things?

Yeah. you remember that old Dale Carnegie saying you can make more friends

in two weeks by becoming a good listener than you can in two years by

~ trying to get people interested in you.

And ~ I I f I feel like if we can take that concept and instead of trying

to get help people interested in listening to the gospel,

really get interested in them,

showing them your interest.

And it's it's kind of like that old saying,

we've used this before you can lead a horse to water,

but you can't make him drink, but you can

Mm. Mm.

put salt in his oats and helping ~ your people

to really genuinely desire to make the people around them thirsty

for Jesus by being the salt God made them to be.

And I think as we interact with people and show them

the love of Jesus through our life and by trying to care for them,

~ then it's gonna be a whole lot easier.

those conversations are gonna happen.

so just I I even that I feel like we have to help people get past that that thinking

and help them to realize we have to create that hunger and thirst.

Yeah. Yeah, you taking an interest in them to begin with.

So so important. I feel like a lot of that statement there of

my neighbors aren't interested in spiritual things,

I think behind some of that it's gotta be some fear back there.

There's gotta be some fear of rejection.

I I don't know how what would you say?

What's a what's the percentage of that you would guess is fear of rejection?

Well, ~ i I I th I large percentage.

I actually think there's another one.

A lot of times when I ask people in our seminars what's holding you back,

somewhere in the group someone will say,

I'm selfish. I I'm I I got stuff I want to do with my time,

and I just don't seem to ever make the time for somebody.

And I I really feel like sometimes

these

words that we use and frankly I find myself doing it sometimes too.

So I'm not in any way pointing fingers.

I think they

Mm-hmm.

are really excuses for just not taking the step to to to go reach

out to somebody.

Yeah. Yeah, I I I couldn't agree with you more because I mean,

after all, ~ I don't know it's just ordinary conversation.

I think isn't this w one of the things we actually do?

We we overthink what this is all supposed to look like.

and w s I I think we think as believers that an evangelistic conversation

is supposed to look like the parting of the Red Sea,

you know, something

Yeah.

miraculous and extraordinary, something you'd find on Channel Ten news.

but it's not like that. I mean wha what

When you when you describe to people what are the actual bridges toward

the gospel really look like, what what kind of things do you point out when

you go on seminars and things like that?

I think first of all, we have to recognize that without God drawing me,

I wouldn't have been interested.

And

Mm.

really genuinely counting on God opening some doors for me.

but ~ I I feel like helping people to see Jesus in my own life

so that so that in this

broader conversation where I'm not trying to preach anything I'm not trying

to teach anything I'm just demonstrating the reality of how Jesus

has made a difference in my life how he's making a difference in my life

the the the fact that I'm caring for them is growing out of that.

I think another bridge that people forget ~ sometimes people are thinking

I I don't know how to

get a conversation to the gospel.

And I I I try to help them see rather than trying to think,

how do I get the conversation to the gospel?

Think how do I get the conversation deeper and start looking for soul needs and from

Mm-hmm. Hmm.

there get the conversation to the gospel.

So to

Yes.

to me, some of the bridges are those relational connections in which I've I've

earned

the the right to be heard by demonstrating Jesus.

I've I'm purposely taking conversation deeper by showing my care for them.

And then I'm watching for them to express those soul needs.

And then then I'll take the bridge to the gospel.

Yeah. I I love the way you put it.

I mean, the goal is to make the relationship deeper,

the friendship deeper. ~ and that's the key to even taking that transition

to spiritual conversation, making it all the more effective.

If it is a genuine relationship,

that's gonna go way better than if it's if they feel like it's a sales pitch.

you know, if they feel like they're being greased a little bit.

the I think the other thing

~ not trying to be cynical, but the other thing behind these types

of comments from people in churches,

all of us as Christians, when we make comments like my my neighbors don't wouldn't

actually care about spiritual things,

maybe one of the things buried in there is we are neighbors with people that

we would not naturally choose to be friends with.

I guess the question maybe that we should talk about is.

How do you develop a relationship with a neighbor that they mow

the lawn clockwise and you mow it counterclockwise and you know,

you don't get along? They they they root for the Patriots,

you you root for the Dallas Cowboys,

or the Denver Broncos, you know.

what do you what do you do with those kind of circumstances?

Well, I think we have to remind ourselves first that Jesus was

the friend of publicans and sitters.

I tend to say that for myself.

Jesus was a friend of sinners.

I should make

Mm.

that friend. But the publicans were almost hated people in the culture.

So this is not just they're tainted,

but they they they're bad. I don't want to have anything to do with them.

And Jesus purposely sought them out and purposely wanted to connect with them.

And I feel like we have to recognize but for the grace of Jesus,

there go I. I mean, I that would be my life if if it if Jesus had not ~ wooed

me to himself. And I j I feel like if we can get over some of our even distaste

of some of the lifestyle issues and just recognize

Mm.

they their greatest need is Jesus.

And I

have the distinct privilege of bringing him into their life.

Yeah. Yeah, I I totally agree.

I I think evangelism at some level has a propensity to get messy.

I think it's one of the reasons that we glance over the people that

are already in our lives that are lost,

~ that we already have pre existing relationships with,

is we're maybe scared for the relationship to get a little messy.

w how as you've gone around and trained

believers in evangelism, how have you helped people to see

the relationships that are already in their lives that are primed for evangelism?

The stu the the people we tend to glance over,

relatives and coworkers and things like that.

We're always looking for somebody who's who doesn't know us.

We don't know them. It's going to be like maybe as low risk as possible.

I I think there's a genuine fear of messiness.

I mean, I I I get it. I mean that means you're going to make Thanksgiving messy

a little bit if you if this doesn't go well.

So, you know, how do you deal how do you deal with that?

How do you walk people through that?

I

I feel like helping people think through first steps.

I I feel like they a lot of people are thinking,

I've I've got to walk up to this person and tell them,

I need to witness to you about Jesus,

or ~ you

Mm-hmm.

know, you're you're in trouble and Jesus is your answer.

And I mean those stark

Thoughts that we have about how this conversation is going to

go are really difficult. And helping people to just see what those first steps

are and how we can get closer.

Sometimes one of the questions that we see come up in seminars almost every single

week is I I want to get close to my sister,

but she's told me, don't ever talk to me about this again.

You know, and helping

Mm-hmm.

people to see you are not responsible.

That every single time you're with your sister,

you have to push Jesus. I mean,

Mm.

what what they really need from you at this point is to start doing some repair

on this relationship that seems to obviously have been damaged.

And thinking in terms of how to get that sister to think,

here comes so-and-so, I'm so happy to see them.

I mean, that's what we really want first,

and and then

moving into and and pray for open doors helping people

Mm.

to see when you when you've got an ongoing relationship and you've already tried

making it happen every single time is not going to be helpful pray for

Mm.

open doors and then i tell people tell god make it obvious to me because

i'm a little dense and

Mm-hmm.

and i i need you to make it clear

And then promise God, I'm gonna walk through the doors.

He opens. And and I I don't you feel,

George, that some of this is ~ all about prayer?

I mean, as I've been thinking

Yeah.

about this situation, Jesus said this kind cannot be driven

out with anything but prayer. And ~ my wife and I were talking about it and

She reminded me of the JL Frazier book Behind the Ranges.

And ~ Jayo Frazier was working with a group of people called the Lisu tribe

in Upper Burma. It was a right on the Chinese border,

and it was a very pagan culture,

and they he was making no progress whatsoever.

He was getting discouraged, he was all by himself.

I mean, there's all kinds of

reasons for him to be totally discouraged.

And Joe Frazier wrote a letter to his mother,

she was across the the world obviously,

and asked her to solicit a group of prayer partners.

And he gave them specific prayer requests to pray for.

And he said it was then that I began to,

and these were his words, get traction in my own prayers.

Was

it was when he had prayer help that that he began to get traction in

his own prayers and and God broke through and they had just unbelievable amounts

of people that came to Christ.

And there were all kinds of difficulties trying to help them make changes

in their lives and and that sort of thing.

But I really believe that we've got to recognize that none of this

is gonna happen without God working,

and often God uses

prolonged prayer in which

Mm.

we just really get serious about it.

In fact, in the KJV in that passage,

it adds the the concept, ~ prayer and fasting,

that that when when prayer doesn't work,

then more prayer is probably needed.

Hm. Yeah, I I think you're exactly right.

if we're not praying about these things,

w why do we expect, you know, God to miraculously do something?

and sometimes he does even when you're not praying.

but he definitely has given us a a prayer as a tool,

a mechanism to get him involved in the situation,

whether it's a prodigal son or a family member whose entire lifestyle wor worldview

Even their marriage is antithetical to the Bible.

~ all of these things, grace is capable of changing all of these things.

Jesus is capable of changing all of these things.

and and I think what you're saying,

what I love about what you're saying is your reputation with your family

and what your family thinks about you when they first think about you,

the kind of person you are, really matters.

and so it's like we're we're

Sometimes we're courteous to our neighbors and our neighborhood in more ways than

we're courteous to our family members,

because we're s assuming on the relationship.

We presume because they're relatives,

we don't have to be courteous.

and that's actually part of what Erica touches on in her in her email is you know,

here in this situation, the church has a bad reputation a little

bit in the neighborhood. And y we know in ministry,

reputation matters a lot. It apparently from what she says here that

Community ~ remembers the church is internally focused,

disconnected from the community,

primarily interested in getting people into the building.

this is a tough one because a lot of churches have a reputation a little

bit like this, not all of them,

obviously. How does a church, though,

rebuild its credibility in a community that has a negative perception towards that

church?

Yeah. I think the very first thing is helping each I mean,

frankly, have a family chat. Help help people recognize this is a problem

and we we are the only people that can fix it.

And then helping each member live out their personal walk with God

~ kindly and gently in the neighborhood.

~ I think

Mm.

that by purposely demonstrating Christ's love as an institution.

There are lots of things that can be done.

And probably, George, you're much better at this than I am.

~ you are by far ~ the event guy when it comes to these sort of things.

But you know, floats and parades,

booths at fairs, trunk or treat.

I I know of one church that did a trunk or treat and they had a

mag a Christian magic show in the auditorium and they invited people

on a regular basis. They had like 20 minute shows every 30 minutes.

And ~ they would they would tell everybody,

hey, in just about ~ 10 minutes,

we're gonna have a Christian magic show in in the auditorium and trying

to get them inside the building.

~ walk through Christmas, you you've done that,

Easter egg hunts. ~ I I think movable church signs can be a little corny sometimes,

but I actually think thoughtful church signs that people look at and

it makes them think.

Those all those things are things that as as a group,

as a as a as a family, we can make an impact on the people around

you probably have more ideas ~ than than the things that I've mentioned 'cause this

is kind of your forte.

Yeah, I think how the community perceives your church is super,

super important. And there's a sense in which there's there's

a level of relationship with the community that you take at large.

Meaning, I'll give you an example.

I went and did the invocation at the new city council for Santana Valley.

We just became an incorporated city,

and hugged the vice mayor. The vice mayor is actually a pastor.

of a church and but his main job is being the vice mayor of this new town

and ~ you know hugging council members or ~ mayors of

a I mean we barely know each other but we've had enough interactions you

can go and hug somebody and so you know most city councils in in in

the place you are at depending on the region there's some regions that that would

not invite a a person like me to do an invocation but if you're in

a place where that

sort of thing is good, great, taking donuts or doing things of love

for public school teachers, ~ going

Mm.

and being an encouragement to firefighters,

having a first responder Sunday once a year,

getting involved in the foster or adoption system and just telling

the whole community, if you're a foster parent in our zip code,

we'll let you have a date night.

Bring all your kids to the church.

And do you like you have to plan for those things?

You can't do those things haphazardly.

but but there's lots of things you can do to show it's just like

in a personal relationship, but you're having a relationship church to community.

It's on a grander scale. But it's like just like in a personal relationship,

they have to know that you care first.

Same thing with the community.

They have to know that your church genuinely cares and it's not just about getting

something for the church. ~ and then they will go,

hey, this is a loving church that cares about our neighborhood.

That

That is a huge leg up for a pastor versus they invite us to their events,

but they've never come to one of ours.

you know, you should go to the pancake breakfast for the city t for the town and,

you know, celebrate with it. You know,

just those kind of things go a long way with your

That's great.

Yeah. Yeah. anyway, ~

No, I I knew you'd have a lot to say about that.

You're very, very good at this.

That's good.

I I do love building relationships,

showing love, showing care. ~ how we come off as Christians representing

our churches gives an impression of the community.

I especially a pet peeve. You see church bumper stickers,

and it's the people that cut you off in traffic,

and you're sitting there like,

take off your bumper sticker for your church if you're gonna drive like that.

~ and so we we have to be careful.

We all have to have that equation in our mind.

so I guess we've kind of started to answer this next question,

but can a church just decide we're gonna do outreach and everybody's gonna trust us?

You know, b g they're gonna send their kids to our church.

how would you answer that question?

Yeah, it it it is going to take time.

And frankly, we have to persistently and relentlessly show people the love of Jesus.

I mean, that's really the the the bottom line.

And you

Mm.

you can't it's not one and done.

This is a this is life as a Christian in this community.

I do think the the smaller the city the harder because in this particular

Mm.

situation it it's because

The damage is deeper. I mean, it that people know more.

~ I actually think you could also say the smaller the city,

the easier it is, because it's easier to

Mm.

~ make a big splash in a small pond,

so to speak. word travels faster,

good or bad. And if we can

Right.

if we can start getting that good word going,

I I will say this, ~ in a bigger place,

it may be necessary to start.

Try to s draw a circle that you want to impact and think in terms of,

Mm.

okay, we've

got this neighborhood right here.

This is the neighborhood we're gonna do our best to to communicate

the kind of church we are. And if if we get that done,

then then maybe a a little larger ~ so that we're we're not just putting

an ad on the radio that's gonna go off to the whole city and and no

one is even gonna hear what we,

you know, know what our the name of our church is.

So the bigger the city, we have to think differently to be able to make that happen.

Yep, agreed, agreed. last question.

What does it look like for a church to repent of an unhealthy

Mm.

culture? And how long does it take to change that reputation in the community?

Well I I I I think it's important.

I mean, the key word is the word repent.

~ repentance must be expressed.

I mean, there there is no repentance in unless we've expressed it.

And so somewhere

Mm.

along the line, we have to believe that there's a need and then figure out

a way to express that to people.

You were talking about conversation with the vice mayor.

it it would be appropriate.

It to to have a conversation. I know in the past our church has had this kind

of a reputation. And I I just want you to know that that's not the way

our church is on the inside. And I want to I want to be demonstrating that

to this community. We we know that that was bad.

And we we're we're our our group is committed to loving people.

And I just think h voicing that,

expressing it, and then ~

Mm-hmm.

I

I love this definition of repentance.

It is a change of heart that produces a change of action or a change of lifestyle.

And if if there's not an actual change of lifestyle,

a change of action, then then it it's not real repentance.

And we just have to recognize number one,

it's important, but number two,

it has to be visual. It has to be something that people see.

Yeah, I I agree. a hundred percent.

I I think it's I mean it's obviously not gonna happen overnight.

you have to do something, you can't just s say something.

Words are cheap, especially today.

Words are cheap. They're they're a dime a dozen,

they're all over the internet,

you know. Anybody can say anything,

doesn't mean anything, you know.

Yeah.

I think that having maybe a little bit of a time frame in your mind.

I've heard

Yeah.

it said that sometimes it these sort of things can take as long as five years.

And I to

Wow.

me that's a whole lot better than saying,

I don't know if it's ever gonna happen.

Do do you know what I mean? So I've got I've

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I I'm I'm taking incremental steps and I believe something good's gonna happen

out there in terms of this relationship with the community,

rather than just

being negative about what the community thinks about us.

I think we've enjoyed this topic so much,

even though it's a hard one and we're praying for churches like Erica

and her husband's. ~ we we are thankful that people are voicing these kind

of issues. We get to address them from the Bible.

And Lord willing, we've been encouraging to you.

if you guys have any other questions or things going on in your church that

you know you'd like Jeff,

and myself to address and and kind of look at the Bible and see what it has to say,

talk to you from our experience.

We'd be happy to do it. But don't lose heart.

The Lord of the harvest said, the harvest is plenteous.

It's just about getting people that are willing to do the work

and encouraging them to come do the work and showing them the riches

of doing that work and seeing God do something in somebody's life,

change somebody.

~ and so pray with us as we pray to the Lord of the harvest that he would send forth

laborers. We'll pick up with part three of this series next week.

We love you guys. We'll see ya then.