Kristin Hetzer returns to the podcast to equip financial professionals with safeguards against unusual client activities.

Kristin Hetzer is not affiliated with Hartford Funds

Julie I don’t know about you, but one of the things that I often get asked about as we’re presenting about aging and longevity and cognitive health, so on, so forth, are the signs of cognitive slippage and, you know, so on and so forth. And sooner or later, that usually follows down a path of concern about our clients because of financial scams. And that that goes even to a deeper topic, which is elder abuse, financial abuse. And the sad part about financial abuse, I know that talking to our friends at AARP is that oftentimes it’s from professionals, it’s from family members. It’s not from an outside scammer, but it’s kind of like an inside job. So I thought that today’s podcast was especially interesting and helpful to people because we talked with Kristen Hetzer, who herself was a victim of financial abuse and her parents were victim of financial abuse from kind of inside the family, if you will, and talking about safeguards, Nice part about working with Kristen is she’s a financial professional, professional herself. And so talk to you about what are safeguards we might put in place or what are best practices. And so I know, Julie, you’ve done a ton of work with teams over the years. Does this topic come up frequently for you?

It certainly does, John. And it’s obviously a very tough topic. It’s a sensitive topic, and there isn’t necessarily the perfect checklist to go about. You know, we have so many checklists and processes and procedures in our industry. And, you know, I’m a woman that loves a great checklist. We have our onboarding checklist and we have our operations manuals and we can have our roles and responsibilities. But this is such a delicate and nuanced and emotional conversation. And sometimes it can be even a little bit inflammatory because we’re asking some probing questions, especially if behaviors don’t seem quite right. And so I think the fact that we’re talking about this and educating and sharing Kristen’s very personal and difficult story is just so important. So I’m just delighted that we have her as a guest today to share her experience and to share her learnings with our financial professional audience, and hopefully they can apply what she wishes. She could have gone back in time and done differently to their own client situations and maybe their own family and life situations as well.

The thing that is very disturbing to me, Julie, as we listen to to Kristen’s story, is that as a financial advisor, financial planner, you think, well, I put all the component parts in place, right? We’ve got the will, we got the living. Well, you know, the trusts are set up, so it’s kind of like, all right, did the documents put them in the safe? We’re good to go, but we’re not. Right. Because the documents are just one piece of the puzzle. And in some cases, yeah, they facilitate things happening. But unless the family is on the same page, sometimes those documents can become an obstacle as much as they’re meant to be a help. So I think I’m really excited for our audience to hear Kristen’s story today and maybe some of the things that if we could put in place ahead of time or encourage our clients to do so, might head off some of the financial issues and certainly some of the heartache that people like Kristen have suffered in these kind of circumstances. So, Julie, why don’t you share with our audience a little bit about Kristen, why we asked her to be on the podcast today.

Yes. Kristin Hetzer began her career in the investment business as an account executive with Merrill Lynch. She’s a chartered market technician, certified investment management analyst and certified financial planner. Kristen provides portfolio management services to individual investors, trusts, corporations and qualified retirement plans.

So join us now as we talk to Kristen. Hats here about how to protect elderly clients from family inheritance manipulation. Hi, I’m John.

And I’m Julie.

We’re the hosts of the Hartford Funds Human Centric Investing podcast.

Every other week, we’re talking with inspiring thought leaders to hear their best ideas for how you can transform your relationships with your clients.

Let’s go.

Kristen, welcome to the Human Centric Investing Podcast. We’re so excited to have you here with us today.

Thank you. I’m excited to be here.

Kristin, in your book Valley, Egypt, you talked about a family estate situation that was involved, your family and, you know, some of the really devastating impacts of financial manipulation, elder abuse that was done within the family. And I know it was it’s kind of heart wrenching. I myself have had some experience with that through a relative of mine. And over the course of my career, I’ve heard many horror stories about people who thought they had done the right thing, actually, that having that family just tear itself apart following the death of the parents or whatever it may be. But we’ve titled this episode How to Protect Elderly Clients from Family Inheritance Manipulation. So, Kristen, the fact that you’re a CFP, that you’re, you know, you’re practicing financial professional. I guess the question I would have for you is that if you had to do it all over again, if you were counseling with your parents, both your parents back when they were healthy, the family was young, everything was going right. Are there things that you think you would have counseled them to do differently or to think about as they plan their estate?

Absolutely. For any of us that sort of. Dying or how we go. It’s it’s not a really fun thing to think about. And I think most of us either we don’t want to think about it or we think, well, I’m going to stay healthy and then I’ll just go. But there’s so many different things that we have to take into consideration. What if my spouse leaves, dies before I do? What if they become incapacitated? What is going to be the plan? These are all things we have to think about. We have so much disease and so many things happening. And of course, with dementia and Alzheimer’s, we just have to face these topics. If we don’t want to put the burdens on to our children or on to others. So what I would have said had I known what I know now is the importance of informing everyone that’s involved in the estate plan. My parents had six children. They involved two of us in in their plans and their and and their desires and. The other four didn’t know about it. So when it came down to the death of the second parent, it was my word against my brother’s word, and it was who they wanted to believe. So that was a big problem. The other thing is the importance of, sure, we want to always believe the best of our family members. We want to believe the best in our children. But it’s really best to have some trusted person to oversight persons or or team to have oversight. And looking back, my parents did have some very close, trusted friends that would have been valuable to bring into this situation. Of course, during the time that everything was removed from my oversight, having a trusted person for me to go to would have been extremely helpful, and it could have prevented a lot of this crime and this tremendous hardship that occurred after the death of my father. So it also, during his life, I know from anecdotal stories, he was he was quite devastated that our relationship ended and our relationship ended because of the manipulation of my brother. So he he ended his life without a good relationship with all of his children.

Kristen, Those are such that such good guidance. And I think, you know, obviously makes so much sense and it’s very tactical. And I think we can all you know, those are checklist items, if you will, that, you know, the financial irrational could certainly go through with a client when bringing up these topics. Do you think that there’s credence or does it make sense for a financial professional to tap into either personal stories that have happened in his or her life or to other clients with names protected, of course, but to share with clients some examples to really emphasize the importance of this? Do you think that’s helpful in trying to dip their toe into these conversations? Because I would imagine it points when clients are young, they’re healthy, their families are young. These issues can seem like they’re so far into the future, right? I’m I’m thriving. My mind is healthy. My family’s young. I can’t even imagine preparing for this. Are some of those stories about the the worst case scenarios helpful? What are your thoughts on that to sort of bring the seriousness of the situation, I guess, to the forefront?

Well, absolutely. You make a great point. Absolutely. Because it brings it right into reality. And the fact that there’s these stories and that they have happen are relevant. So what has happened with after I wrote this book and talked to clients and friends and family and many have read it and they all have gone away and said, I made changes because of this, because I don’t want anything close to this happening to me. So I think any of those real life anecdotal stories are really helpful and they bring home the point of what can happen. I mean, you never you never imagine these things can happen. You never imagine you’re going to be taken advantage of. So you really want to think about it and do what you need to do to protect yourself.

You know, Kristen, when I think about you talked about constructing a team. So I’ve got a couple of questions about that. One is kind of your view on the use of a professional trustee, a third party at a bank or trust office or something like that versus a family member? I mean, I think about it for myself, you know, and and my initial thought is, well, surely the kids can handle this, right? But when you pick one child to be the executor or executor executrix and also perhaps the trustee, kind of the one that calls the shots, you may be setting up the family for conflict. So question one was your thoughts on professional trustees? And then question number two is it sounded to me like we may not have to go all the way to a professional trustee if there are a team of other professionals around, like an attorney that the family knows, an accountant, that the family knows, maybe other professionals. But what are your thoughts on this idea of a team trustee? Like, how could I effectively build a more efficient and cohesive approach to execution of the estate plan rather than just making sure we got the documents done and stick them in the safe?

Well, you bring up really good points, and I think a professional trustee is a good idea. Again, it always comes down to. Who? Who is it and how good are they? You can have a certified public accountant or a lawyer or a financial advisor. How good is that person? I mean, just because you have one doesn’t mean that they’re going to be great. So. So it’s it’s a question of making sure you have really quality people around you. And I think a professional trustee is great if it comes from a good situation, because you do hear nightmare stories about professional trustees, too, and and, you know, founding of funds and all those things. So it’s everything. You just have to do your homework, make sure you have the references, the recommendations that you’re dealing with, quality people. And certainly I’ve seen and I’ve heard very, very wealthy families who appoint very competent person in their family to be trustees. Well, this poor person is subject to tremendous erosion and slings because he’s in that position. And sometimes, you know, so it is a tough position, even as a very reputable person, because other people want to make sure they’re doing the right thing. And that’s why it makes sense to have another oversight to just say, yeah, this is all being done according to what what the way it’s supposed to be done. So your points are well taken. And I would absolutely I think it’s a very good idea. And again, just make sure you’re dealing with with quality.

Speaking of oversight, you know, we we think about unusual activity or behaviors or maybe things that don’t seem to be right or maybe are out of character. Well, you share with us your thoughts on, you know, from a financial professional perspective when all of a sudden there are, you know, maybe spending behaviors or changes that start to be made. How should the financial professional approach that I mean, obviously, again, we’re in very delicate territory. You know, there could be a longstanding relationship. I mean, these are really, really tough situations. But after living through what you’ve lived through, what what what do you do in these situations now? You know, as a financial professional, that’s a CFP that’s also lived through this situation.

Yeah, it’s it’s difficult because it and it’s anybody that’s been in the business and you’re dealing with elderly people and they have children and you just see, I just seen it so much over my career. They, the children end up I need money. You know, you see these transfers more and more. And I just try and have the conversation. For the most part, my clientele is really up on all of this. But in all in that, I’m thinking of a particular situation. They want to keep it there. But just knowing that you’re you care and that you’re involved and the children know you are, I think is is a positive. But it is a delicate situation. And it’s you have to approach it delicately.

I think Kristen and she as you build your relationship with a client, sometimes it’s best to introduce these kind of topics at a time where it’s not crunch time. Right. We’re not in a moment of crisis. So bringing up, I think every client will tell you, well, yeah, having a will is an important thing to do, right? I know that. And how many times they say that’s something we should do. Right. But I think at that opportunity, when you’re doing even an initial review of clients plan, being able to say, you know, there are more things to an estate plan than just the document itself. Right. And and as you say, kind of feel them out a little bit on where their pressure point is in terms of how far they’ll let you talk about that. I think sometimes introducing these topics when we’re not in the thick of it, introducing the need for trusted persons before a person is maybe nearing that age where cognitive decline can can set in. So I think for the advisors listening to financial professionals, it’s really sometimes just starting a conversation that may not be especially pertinent to, you know, the investment work that you’re doing at this appointment, but saying, Hey, by the way, I just wanted to check in, you know, have you established a will? When was the last time you took a look at it? If you haven’t shared it with me already, we probably ought to at some point review it. Your thoughts on that, just kind of easing your way into that conversation over time. It just seems that way if if you’re going to introduce it, because we’re now at crunch time. I could see that being problematic.

Well, you bring up excellent points, John. And if you do what you just outline, you’re going to have a successful business. Your clients are going to see that you care. They’re going to see that you are motivated to their success. And I just think that’s an excellent point. And that’s how you’re going to develop a very successful practice, because they’re going to tell their friends, I mean, how many people really go to that point of showing how much they care and really getting involved in these very personal, you know, intimate discussions. So I think I think you just brought up a great, great point.

Can I ask a follow up question, too, in terms of your own situation and maybe other situations? So let’s say we did successfully get the family together. The family is on the same page. We met the attorney who met the account and we know you’re the financial professional. And that’s a lot of our, you know, investment or things like that. But let’s say somewhere down the line there’s a change in the attorney and the parent who made the change with the attorney doesn’t share with any of the children why that change was made. I suppose it’s their right to do so. But I think I would almost want to set something up like a fail safe to say, look, I will this I will share with you if I ever change the attorney from Julie Genjac to someone else. We’ll get back together and I’ll explain why. Because my first fear is family members are one source of abuse. But there are other professionals, I think, who are very opportunistic. I again, and in my own case, it was kind of from that end, things that things went awry. I just think meeting and having that agreement within it, if not the whole family, at least the majority of it, to say this is what we’ve laid out, here’s how we want it to work. And if there’s any major changes, we’re going to come back to you with an explanation, because I’d be really fearful that someone would take advantage of someone you know, and then tell them, because we know even with financial fraud, you know, and this, which is what it is, you hear about all these scams. And one of the things the scammers say is and don’t tell anyone that you did this right. So I think any of those major changes that aren’t explained should be a red flag in some way.

Well, John, you brought up a just the most excellent point, really, because this is exactly what happened in our situation. And that is just an excellent point, because this attorney that had acted, this law firm that had acted on my parent’s behalf and my mother had all of her faith and trust in this person and this law firm, and they had all of their documents for 30 decades. They should have copied whether they copied myself and the older brother or another sibling, we should have been informed. We had no I had no idea. I didn’t know until my dad had been buried. And I called this firm and this was change years ago. And this is how the brother was able to come up with all these new amendments and change everything because he went to another she went to a crooked attorney. So absolutely, Absolutely. You got to have it can’t be just the two two parents because one dies or the other one dies. So they both died there. There has to be a failsafe. And and if it’s not children, then then a trusted person in their life or an accountant or whoever it is. But you brought up just the most important point.

Well, I think especially in this times of transition, right. We if we lose a spouse, we’re emotionally vulnerable, which makes us particularly vulnerable to other kinds of bad actors essentially coming in to take advantage of, you know, kind of the the emotional state that we’re in. So I would say to financial professionals, be be guarded about your relationships, right? Try to maybe try to set things up before those transitions occur. But certainly pay attention during those transitions, check in with people. And if there are major changes, again, whether it’s something hopefully there’s a trusted person, maybe there’s somebody in your firm. And I guess, Kristen, you would say because I heard you say in your own situation, what really helped you was document, document, document.

Yeah, I had all the documents. And what was interesting, my parents had insurance policies equally equally for all the children. But what happened when my mother died right away? Guess who will change the beneficiaries of the insurance policies? So, yeah. Yeah. So what about this insurance agent? I mean, it’s just incredible.

Absolutely incredible. I’m curious, Kristen, have you facilitated family money? Conversations or dialogs with multiple generations of the family where they’ve come together either in person or virtually over time, to really share their wishes and intentions and plans. Or is that something that you would recommend that financial professionals do? I realize they can’t do that with every client, but with the clients that that makes sense in their practice. Is that something that you think makes sense?

Yeah, if you can do it, it’s just great. And I think as we go, you know what’s happening today, you just hear more and more about elderly people that have dementia or Alzheimer’s or these different cognitive diseases, and that’s kind of a a good opening to to promote a get together before this happens, because once it happens, it’s just too late. So I think what John had mentioned of kind of preemptively talking about some of these things and it just makes I think it makes everybody feel better and it would create a closer family, a closer family unit to.

Have a margin for retention of the assets as well. Right. If you build that relationship with the next generation, there is a stronger chance of retaining those assets as well.

Right. Well, Kristen, we certainly appreciate your insights. And, you know, in trying to help other professional financial professionals guard their clients from the kind of abuse that you suffered through not only the expense of that abuse, but also the emotional toll that it took on you and your family. We appreciate you sharing that. And in fact, if you’re up for it, Julie and I are going to ask for maybe you to share a little bit more about yourself through what we call the lightning round of questions. So if you’re game, what we’ll do is we’ll ask you a series of questions, really top of mind type questions, just to help our audience learn a little bit more about Kristen. If your game will start and Julie can fire the first one at you.

What was your favorite board game as a kid?

Monopoly.

Monopoly. So would you prefer a beach house or a lake house?

Beach.

Beach.

What’s your favorite season fall. I really agree.

Would you say you’re a spontaneous person or are you a planner?

I’m pretty much a planner.

I would figure from our financial backgrounds and the fact that you’re in CFP. So, yeah, falls right in line.

Yes.

Exactly. What’s the first concert you went to?

Gosh. Pure Prairie league I think is one of the or Jethro Tull actually Jethro Tull way back and he’s still performing. Yeah.

Are you a fan of dark chocolate or milk?

Dark. Yeah.

There you go. It’s good for you too.

It is good to use for texting or a phone conversation.

Texting.

My last question. Would you rather binge a TV show or watch a movie?

Watch the movie.

And do you prefer to online shop or go into the store?

Probably. I’m not a big shopper. Probably online just because of the time.

Well, Kristin, we can’t thank you enough for joining us today on the Human Centric Investing podcast. And for our listeners, if you’re interested in Christine’s book. Again, it’s Valley, Egypt. Here’s a copy right here. This is what it looks like. You can find it, I assume. Kristin it’s on Amazon or other online book retailers or you can download it onto your Kindle or digital e-reader. But, Kristin, thank you for sharing your story and talking about this really important topic. I think that it’s something that every financial professional comes across and I’m sure struggles with in conversation and trying to wrap his or her mind around and thinking about how to delve into the conversation. So thank you for the education and again, sharing your very difficult story and for writing about it as well to help all of us process and learn from your experience.

Thank you.

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The views and opinions expressed herein are those of the guest who is not affiliated with Hartford Funds.