The Social Justice Co-operative in St. John's Newfoundland/Labrador has a long as resilient history. Our interview with co-chair Kerri Claire tells of a personal political journey and an organizational one. Both of which have led to an impressive collective making a meaningful impact.

With limited resources, these folks are able to contribute to wide array of local initiatives. And most importantly, they do this in a way that value members' voices and set models for community care.

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Resources:

• Referenced Article: Memorial University of N.L. board member suspended | CTV News
• Follow Kerri Neil on Twitter (X)
• Follow SJCNL on Twitter (X)
• Social Justice Co-Op NL Linktree

Greetings friends. My name is Jess McLean and I'm here to provide you with some blueprints

of disruption. This weekly podcast is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, examining

power structures, and sharing the success stories from the grassroots. Through these discussions

we hope to provide folks with the tools and the inspiration they need to start to dismantle

capitalism, decolonize our spaces, and bring about the political revolution that we know

we need. Welcome for Try Number Two, Carrie. Can you introduce yourself to the audience?

Hello, my name is Carrie Clare Neal. I'm co-chair for the Social Justice Cooperative in Newfoundland,

Labrador. Calling in from St. John's, Newfoundland, Labrador, also known as Iggongook. The Social

Justice Co-op. According to your Twitter, this is a member-owned, nonprofit, anti-capitalist

grassroots organization. That has a lot to unpack. It's at like, at first glance, you're like,

oh, I can kind of picture what you guys probably get up to. We'll talk about that in details.

But what's it mean to be a member owned nonprofit, especially when you're talking about social

justice? I thought, you know, that kind of piqued my interest there. Yeah, I think we're the

only advocacy, not a cooperative incorporated in the province. And I don't hear about a lot

of them. in like other places in Canada. But it's a really cool model. I mean, I think,

you know, we're familiar with like worker owned co-ops, housing co-ops. I think it is like

a very kind of anarchist model in itself because it's kind of like everyone has a share in,

you know, the organization and everyone has like one member, one vote. So everyone is like

kind of equal. It's not like corporation where some people have more shares so they have more

say. Um, and generally the members like, don't get like dividends. Um, like the profits will

go back into the, um, cooperative in different ways. Maybe like, yeah, increasing people's

salaries of a worker co-op or with housing, like I think it would go into repair. Um, but

yeah, I guess as a nonprofit, we don't have profit. Um, but our money is kind of collectively

decided, um, by our members who like vote for our board. Um, and. We definitely like take

an extra mile to like bring members in on a lot of our financial decisions and just different

ways like how we govern ourselves. And there are like, because we're cooperative, there

are specific like rules about like how many people you need to change the official rule

or that kind of thing. It's I think a very democratic and equitable way to organize. Okay, I'm going

to ask you about that a little bit later because I want to know how you came about getting into

this type of organizing, because looking through your history, it's eclectic in terms of political

activism. You've run for the NDP, and you've sat on boards, which are far more formal institutions,

typically. Did this come from a reaction to that experience or were you always doing this

alongside the more institutional political work? Yeah, I guess like when I was a young 20 something,

I would like, I started in activism, kind of like trying to get more women into like playing

punk music. Like I was going to a lot of music shows and it was a lot of like men in the stage

and women in the audience. Um, and then I, from there, I was like really interested in, like,

I started getting into like feminist activism and using my voice more, like getting more

on Twitter and, you know, concerns about like the oil and gas here in the province, and I

ended up actually losing a non job that I got in a nonprofit that like helped women get into

the trade sector because of like tweets I was making about like. politicians and the oil

and gas industry and like its impact on climate and, you know, corruption and yeah. And I was

like very public about that. I kind of made this like, it was quite a moment of like, okay,

do I like be quiet and just like stop using this and like kind of just like become a career

oriented person or do I? go public about what just happened to me and just kind of lean into

it. And I decided to lean in. And it just happened there was a by-election happening near where

I lived. And the NDP were kind of like, hey, we're looking for a candidate. Looks like you

don't have a job. And I was kind of like, I had my tippy toes in there, but I decided to.

to go for it and I ended up running against two of like the richest men in the province.

And because it was a by-election, there was a lot of attention on it. So there was like

all these debates and it was... Was that provincially? Yeah, yeah. It's always interesting playing

against the big players, eh? Like the campaigns must have been starkly different. I find it

interesting though, you kind of get in a little bit of... social media hot water and the NDP

come to you because we've heard like many stories and I know you've had your own experience with

them not being particularly fond of people who stir the pot. And I'm reading an article in

which you're explaining why you're running for the NDP. And part of it, one of your quotes

there, it was, you know, you weren't doing the wrong thing. You were simply working for the

wrong organization. And I had... can help a cringe and I'm sure you do looking back on

that, that clearly the NDP isn't the right organization for you either. But we learn and then we organize

like anarchists I suppose is the natural cycle of that experience. But yeah, reading back

on that, I just wanted to maybe allow you to reflect on. trying to find a space where you

could act in ways that you thought were appropriate, that were meaningful. Yeah, the NEP don't want

anything to do with me anymore. They have blocked me on Twitter. They totally think, yeah, they

have to distance themselves from me as much as possible. Cause I guess the more, I think

I was always saying pretty radical things, but I guess as my, Twitter following has grown.

I get a lot more attention on the things that I say. So there have been a few things that

have gone viral that liberals don't necessarily like. And, you know. Like, fuck the police,

right? Was one of them. Yeah. Exactly. Mostly, yeah, about cops and images of cop cars on

fire. Yeah. Totally appropriate. I'm serious. Maybe I haven't always used the most, the nicest

times. Yeah, I guess a cop died and it was being shared with this blue line symbol. And I responded

with, fuck the police. And that did not go over well. I mean, you could have put any cab. And

that's how I got kicked off the border region. It could have also been. But yeah, after I

ran for the NDP, I guess, the social justice co-op was looking to hire someone. And that's

kind of when I got involved in that org. So it was all kind of standard. So finding you

when you're kind of in trouble, they're like, ooh, I like that, right? It's not always a

deterrent. The right people found you. So now you're co-chair over there and do folks organize

a lot around defunding the police? We have... Definitely, yeah, over the years, I guess,

we do a lot of different organizing. We've supported like a Cancel Canada Day events. We are doing

like a prison pen call project where we try and like, build relationship with people in

prison. And yeah, I would say right now we're doing a 10 city for change. We're involved

with a collective that's helping people living in tents in our city. And that is a very like

harm reduction, ACAB has, I mean, we're constantly dealing with the police and seeing how they're

treating people. And showing up, I guess, at protests where police presence is really strong.

Like today, a few of us went down and supported the crab harvesters where there's like, yeah,

police and like SWAT teams, big guns, they had the batons. And like no one in that, no one

at the protest was had weapons, you know? I think it's a pretty good sign of that you're

doing the right kind of trouble when you end up confronting the police. That's a pretty

good barometer for that. I gotta be honest, I have very little idea in my head when I think

of even just the Atlantic in general, what it's like there. But I guess... What's the environment

like when talking about these kind of cultural things like ACAB and all these things? How

receptive are people there, I guess? I honestly have no clue. It's funny, the establishment,

of course, is all about the police. But I do think a lot of people don't like the police.

There was an article that went around about a year ago, kind of encouraging people to call

the police more. It was like this R&C campaign and all of the comments were just people complaining

about times when they called the police and they couldn't do anything. It's just how incompetent

they are and useless. And I do think in rural areas, people aren't super trusting of the

police. It really can be that one issue that we should all be able to relate on. But other

than ACAB then, because obviously all cops are bastards everywhere, what about other kinds

of politics? Can you lay the groundwork for folks who aren't familiar with Newfoundland

politics? Is it generally conservative? Is was your election always going to be an uphill

battle regardless of the budget constraints of running against two rich, presumably white

men? Yeah, it's. I think there's a lot of cronyism here. Like the liberals, we have liberals and

PC's our progressive conservatives are like our two main parties. And it's very much like

they're the same party. Whatever one's in power, they do the same thing. Like tax cuts for the

rich and like a lot of money going to like massive corporations who take them out to fancy dinners.

The oil and gas industry is very important to our province. We have our own offshore oil,

but also a lot of people work over in Alberta. And for a long time, we hated conservatives

federally because of some stuff that happened under Harper. But we're definitely, we just

elected our first federal conservative in the last election and in a long time. And people

are expecting more of that is going to happen. St. John's was a stronghold for NEP for a long

time, federally. And there's a couple seats. Right now we have one provincial seat in the

city that's NEP and two in Labrador. It's only like five seats in Labrador. You describe your

organizing as anti-capitalist things, and you've described talking about tent city organizing

around maybe not prison abolition, but the harm reduction factor there. Is that a consensus

among your collective? Would you all label yourself as anti-capitalists? And is that a hard sell

in Newfoundland? That's a great question. I, we do have this like revolution of care manifesto

that kind of like directly names capitalism as the big kind of that makes us sick and is

kind of dividing us. And we need to take care of each other. And you know, have more co-ops

and work together, yeah, have different economies that are more, yeah, thinking about more about

the environment and each other. But we're also trying to be really decentralized and we do

like a lot of different things. Like we advocate for like sidewalks, no clearing. And we're

out on the streets supporting Palestine and we're, we have a book club and we... I think

we're trying to hopefully bring people in on a lot of issues and we're not like you have

to be anti-capitalist to join. But definitely I think enough people in the space are anti-capitalist

generally that I think it opens people up more to the idea that the way that we're organizing

this economy around like profit extraction and destroying the environment is like not helpful.

Okay. I have a question because we just interviewed. someone from an anarchist collective. And one

of the staying points with me was the practice of truly listening to everybody's voice and

allowing them to take action as they feel comfortable, as they feel is effective, that is meaningful

to them. Is that how you came about doing so many things? You probably just named a fraction

because I will link people to your Linktree, which is extensive. And, you know, I'm asking

you, are you involved in this and that before we started? Activist film collection, mutual

aid, the Black Mutual Aid Fund, and all the other things that you've already mentioned.

So are these kind of visions of all of your members and you just allow that? Yes, go for

it. You know, book club? Sure, start it. without having to all come to a consensus on each one

of these activities or even requiring the labor of each one of your members? Absolutely. We

kind of consider ourselves like an activist incubator. So if you're really passionate about

something and you want support, we're here to help. And as long as it kind of broadly aligns

with our values, we do have some consideration about who we're supporting and how. But I kind

of believe that Capitalism is such a massive, it's in every part of our life. And we need

to like, there are a lot of different ways that we can tear it down. And sometimes we need

to think about really immediate things, like getting people food when they're living out

in the streets. And then, yeah, sometimes we're thinking about really long-term things like

climate change. And how do we... you know, elect different people or how do we give people more

willing to try direct action in different ways? Um, how do we just even just build community

where we have enough trust that we could take things a step further. Um, yeah. So we also

do a lot of like socializing as part of our movement. This kind of sounds like the dream

to me. Like this is like what you guys are doing here. It's checks off so many boxes of. things

that we need, you know? And honestly, I wish that more communities had organizations like

this, because this kind of sounds quite like the blueprint of the work that needs to be

done. I guess, because you mentioned like when you joined it already had been around, right?

Can you tell me a bit about like, like what you've learned of like, what were the early

days of this? Like, how did this... get started to hike off the ground. This was my comic book

reference. We need the origin story. Well, thank you. That was very kind. Yeah, I definitely

feel good about the strategies that we have. SJC has a really interesting history. So it

originally came from out of Oxfam way back in the 60s. People like. got second mortgages

on their homes and like bought this building and like, we're like, we need to do organizing

that I guess connects like what's happening locally with what's happening globally. So

we're really interested in making those connections and yeah, advocating in the province. And then

in the 2000s under Harper, there were some rules around like what Oxfam could do as a charity,

like they couldn't do as much political advocacy. So they like lost some money and like pulled

out of. Newfoundland and Oxfam did. Oxfam pulled out. Cause yeah, they own the building. I guess

they had staff. Um, so everyone got laid off and the, the building was like sold to Oxfam

Canada with this idea that they'd have to sell back to it for a dollar to like a like-minded

organization if they ever like pulled out of the region. So the social justice co-op was

formed in like 2010. officially incorporated in 2013 to take over that building and kind

of continue that organizing under a new name and in that negotiation, like the building

burned down tragically. But, Oxfam Canada did give some like insurance money, like $50,000

to the SJC, which is like an amazing little like pot of gold that really helped like. the

organization to like hire a staff and like be independent. Because yeah, we don't rely on

government funding, which makes it a lot easier for us to have that voice. We do like take

this for certain projects, but like our core funding is all member driven. We do like a

monthly, we encourage our members and allies to do monthly donations. And that pays for

like our staff and like our core operations. being an incubator earlier and I wanted to

ask you, who wouldn't you support? Because, and that like, it can be a funny question and

some obvious answers perhaps, but again, I'm going back to the discussion we most recently

had and the need that you mentioned to bring in as many people as possible, but there has

to be a line. And I kind of wanted to ask that of our previous guests when we're talking about.

doing that and including like all voices because the solution has to be a collective of ideas.

But you know, how do you maintain a safe space for the people that you've already brought

in that you need to thrive without being too exclusive? Yeah, it's something that we've

been talking about a lot. Like right now in book club we're reading Let This Radicalize

You by Kelly Hayes and Marion Pabe and they kind of talk about like you have to build a

movement, not a clubhouse. So it's okay to organize with people that you don't agree with. But

I think they're also to be aligned in like, if you're advocating to like harm some of the

people that we're organizing with, then that then they're not in a safe space anymore. So

we have kind of bumped heads with people who are been involved in like trucker convoy style

organizing, and kind of concerned about, you know, the way that they're framing trans people.

Um, so as an example, so I think that would be, that's a tricky, like so far we have excluded

people that we know to be in the convoy from our circles. Um, cause some of them have been

showing up to tent city for like, and it's been an interesting of like, should we? work like

they're showing up bringing food and helping clean up like that's great. But should we work

with them? But then they're also like saying mean things about us. So we're kind of just

like trying to not like we've taken the strategy of just like not really talking to them and

like letting them do their own thing and not engaging, I guess. And keeping them out of

our core circles. Yeah. That's tough, especially when you see coalescing around certain issues

like defunding the police, perhaps, because of the experiences that they're all having.

And things like tent city, of course, not all aid is equal when it comes to folks helping

the unhoused community. We know that, right? Like some don't go in with the right motives

at all. But yeah, it's just a question I wanted to pose when that is the approach, right? Eventually

we do have to bring everybody along. So how we best do that would be from the anarchist

perspective, I suppose, but finding that balance as well, right? So that we can maintain safe

spaces. I know some people roll their eyes when I use that phrase, but it's important because

that's how you get every voice. And I'm going through, I warned you, I was going to go through

like your meeting guidelines. I'm telling you everything you need to know is like on their

link tree, including like the many different organizations in and around Newfoundland. St.

John's specifically, but it's really eclectic and yeah, so I'm on there and I'm trying to

figure out how you guys might do things differently and it's interesting folks should I'll link

specifically to that because we're talking about it, but You have mechanisms written in things

like the ten-second rule and Reminding people that silence is okay The ten-second rule is

let's say you're the person that always talks like me. I always have a question. I always

could contribute, could, you know, should I? Let me wait 10 seconds and see if anybody else

has something to say, because not everybody is comfortable being the first person. It takes

a few seconds for people to build up the courage to speak. So you just remind people silence

is okay. We can sit here staring at each other for a few minutes until a light bulb goes off,

like a real one, not just to fill the space. because how many meetings have you been in

where people are really just regurgitating what someone else has already said or simply just

agreeing, like standing up to take up space to agree. And it's nice when people agree with

you, but it's also like maybe some tension is needed. You know, maybe you don't need a cheering

section. You need somebody to just sit there for a minute and come up with a different idea.

But yeah, do you think, are there anything? And are there any other things that you folks

do that you think have helped you create an environment where so many different ideas come

up and are encouraged and then acted on? You know, they're not just, it's not just a think

tank. You're turning a lot of these into action, which means people are coming up with ideas

and then other people are volunteering their time to make it happen. So you guys are doing

something right. And it starts sometimes in those meetings. Yeah, I would say meetings

are like 80% of what we do. I'm sure a lot of organizers feel that. And being really mindful

about like making it an enjoyable is something that we've yet put a lot into. I would say

like, when we started meeting with the check-in circle, so we go around, like on Zoom, we might

go alphabetically so folks know like where they are in the circle. and kind of say like, you

know, what are your names, your pronouns and how are you feeling coming into the meeting?

And maybe there's like a icebreaker question. What was the last protest you went to? And

that some people don't like that. They're like, oh, we're spending all this time wasted when

we could be talking about the action items. And it's like, but that's actually really important

to like understanding, like knowing each other where we're all coming from. how much capacity

we have right now to like be involved. And you know what's bothering them or like what's on

their mind. And we also do like a check out circle. So at the end we kind of say like how

did you feel about the meeting? Were there any like actions that you're planning to take on

or need some support with? And I think those like relational pieces I think are often Um,

I went to a meeting like a couple of years ago, organized by some union and they were going

to kind of do like a green new deal for Newfoundland. It was like a people's deal. I can't remember

what it was called, but, but 60 people in the room and they, no introductions, like I just,

and you know, how can you share ideas if you're not like taking that time to be like, Oh hi,

this is me. Like where I'm coming from. if some of those are even designed to get your input?

You know? Yeah, it's something that people forget a lot is that the importance of building your

organizing spaces into communities, right? Like it's more than about just the business end

of things, you know? It's the relationships, interpersonal relationships, that's part of

it. That's part of the movement. And that's how you build something that's going to last,

be successful. I've seen some, like, I'm a part of organizations that very much don't do that.

And people, I find very quickly, find that they don't really have a voice in there, they can't

really, they don't feel comfortable contributing, communicating, and they end up leaving pretty

quickly. They start thinking, why, it's not even worth it for me to show up to this, and

do they even really? need me here? Does my presence do anything other than count as a number of

how many people were here? No. So I'm gone. And so building that kind of environment is

crucial. Absolutely. And then everyone has ownership too. If it's the book club was their idea,

even if they don't completely execute it on their own or even at all, right? Like you don't

necessarily have to be the person to do it, to come up with the idea. Although you should

be willing to do some of that. But there's ownership and pride rather than just taking orders or

having a real a model of activism that you just kind of want people to step into and fill that

role. And, you know, it's like a formula. A lot of organizations you walk into, it's this

formula. There's almost a ladder you can see, maybe not of power, but of progression. And

It just feels really stifling. It just feels like we're mimicking some of the institutions

sometimes that we don't want to, that we've railed against, but we just don't know another

way of doing it. So it's, I love that our interview actually got delayed until we had the discussion

with the anarchist. Because I think it set the stage for just understanding a different design,

especially for small... community groups. Well, I don't know how big are you? How big is your

organization? It's pretty small. I mean, I guess we have like 200 members, official, like shareholding

members. I'm sorry. Pretty small. We're talking about St. John's, Newfoundland. So what is

the population of St. John's? 200 members is fantastic for like, I'm in Toronto, you know,

like there's not that many organizations that got up to those numbers. And we have a lot

more people here. You know, 200, that's honestly incredible. Oh, thank you. That's, that's a

good perspective. I mean, not everyone is like super active, you know, um, you get a membership

for life kind of thing, um, and right now we're raising like $25,000 a year. Um, we did just

have like all of our money stolen. Um, but. Sorry, what? We have recovered. Yeah, about

a year ago, I should say. Well, who's asking if the kick, do we know who stole your money?

Yes, someone that we've really trusted. They were our treasurer, they were on the board.

They came to every meeting, our birthdays. Yeah, over two years. I am so sorry, cause that must've

hurt, honestly. Yeah. It was a real wake up call. Like I think, yeah, I've been on the

board and I was so focused on like the activism part of it and not, yeah, we didn't do good

oversight on the financial side of it and really like trusted this person who was kind of in

a financial, facing their own financial issues. And I guess like the temptation was there.

and you know they were presenting treasurer's reports and everything but like we weren't

looking at the bank statements and yeah finally like we did discover it um and it almost it

definitely like was really intense like that decision about like do we go to the police

was really hard and we decided not to because we didn't believe that it like went by

who maybe haven't been with us for every, you know, defend the police action kind of came

out of the woodwork and were like, what do you mean you're not going to the police? I can

see that, yep. Yeah, but actually I think being a cooperative kind of also helped us in that

moment because we were able to put forward a plan that our members were able to like give

input on and vote on. And I think... We like had a series of membership meetings and like

we were really transparent. Like we haven't shared everything publicly yet. We are hoping

to like put out a fraud investigation report by the summer, but we were really transparent

with our members and let them also talk about like, you know, what they thought was going

to happen. And thankfully, yeah, the, the ACAVRs in the group. We had really strong voices and

we're really passionate and we were able to put together a Transformer of Justice Committee

who are kind of helping us now, like through that process. I absolutely love this moment

even though it was the last thing I wanted to hear because you wanna be able to trust anyone

that comes forward and is willing to do the work. I'm a real believer in that. But oversight,

lesson learned there. But to not go to the police, to practice what you preach, that's so important.

And it wasn't that you just didn't go to the police as a matter of principle either, you

provided an alternative model for people to follow. Next time, hopefully there's no next

time like that. But in their lives, in their conflict resolution and how they can envision

a world without... police intervention for everything. So, because I imagine the temptation, we're

all raised to be like, no, you wronged me, bad guys, call the cops. It's very inherent in

how most people are raised. And so, and then when you're personally wronged, we often quite

see people, even though they will take the stand of defund the police, they'll call the police

or they'll cheer them on as a solution. And... We've talked about that before, that simply

just reinforces the ideology that you spend so much time trying to break down. And I don't

think there's any truer way to reinforce it than to be that example. Because some people

scramble to even envision, like, what is that going to look like? What do we do if we don't

call the cops? You just let her go? You know, and it's... There are other ways to kind of

work through the problem. Plus, additionally, it's a testament to the strength of your group.

That kind of thing can really... tear a group apart, you know, the fact that you came out

on the other side of it and you know, you're still here, you're still doing the work. That

that in and of itself says a lot about, you know, the dynamics that have been fostered

there. Yeah, definitely. Like when we were going through it, I was like, do we just like, yeah,

close this, start fresh? And then I was like, you know what, like, we've already built so

much, we're gonna have to put in better financial oversight policies than any other thing that

we do. We kind of just have to keep moving. We survived the building burning down. We can

survive having all our money stolen. And we, incredibly, a lot of our monthly donors did

not leave us. And so after just, I think eight months, we were able to hire back our staff

at the same salary. And... Having staff is so important to our organization. And I just feel

so lucky that like, it does feel like we're bouncing back. And that people like trusted

us to like figure it out and trusted the plan that we put forward. It was like really hard,

even on the board, like not everyone was a cab and you know, people thought like. Oh, like

you have, it's in the law that you have to go to the police if someone steals from you. And

it's like, well, actually, it's not like that is a choice. And we did meet with lawyers and

they were like, you know, you're probably not going to get your money back, even if you want

that route and you're going to have to spend like years going through that route. And, you

know, are we as going to be motivated to do that? Like, are we going to force our members

to go through that? Like, no, like. And thankfully, like. Actually, in our book club, we were doing

a lot of prison abolition reading. And some of our members started a transformative justice

working group probably a year before it happened, just to kind of start thinking through, like,

how do we resolve conflict outside of police? So, like, thankfully, we also had that, like,

people in place who were like, I I'm not an expert on this, but I'm willing to talk to

experts and The NL Human Rights Council here also just got funding for restorative justice.

Um, worker, like people who were, yeah, supporting restorative justice and teaching people about

it. So we were able to like lean on that. And yeah, um, I think having that in place already

really made it seem for people like more possible that we could do this, um, without the police.

I meant to bring this up earlier and now we're talking about police again. But just recently

a video went around from yesterday. So the same thing you went to earlier today, but clearly

a little more heated where police were using horses and backing them up into. Fishermen,

I guess the fishermen were there. They had. Although that is interesting, a cab worth worthy

of discussion, and we can. I kind of wanted to talk a little bit about the action itself

that we didn't get into because I was telling you, we don't get that a lot. Our farmers rarely

come up to protest anything anymore. It's been a very, very long time here in Ontario. And

I cannot remember the last time there was a decent effort to shut down the proceedings

happening inside the legislature. even when we know the most damaging things are coming

down the pipe and rallies have happened, never has a circle been formed, never have exits

and entrances been blocked. Like not a long time. You might have to go back to the Harris

days of action, 20 odd years ago or more now, maybe 30. Ugh. And what are you laughing at,

Santiago? Don't you dare. But I thought that was, and I'm not even sure what they're protesting,

so I don't know if I support them or not. But you're down there, you seem to, but... Besides

that, they're trying to stop the budget from happening. There's something in the budget

that they're not happy about, and they are stopping the politicians from physically getting in

the building so that they can't pass the budget. Does that happen a lot down in Newfoundland?

Because that's impressive. It was, yeah, quite something. I wouldn't say it happens a lot.

I don't think I've seen anything like that in the past 20 years here either. But yeah, harvesters

from all across the province. drove in like huge numbers. I don't think the government

saw it at all. It wasn't really about the budget, but I guess they realized, you know, it's an

important day for government and they're gonna be pissed if we show up and block the entrances

today. Like they showed up at dawn. They'll care today if we block the, the other day they're

probably not even here working, but okay, I get it. We know where they're gonna be. And

yeah, stop people from getting in. And I think it actually like, The whole horse thing, I

think, also comes from people actually not being well trained in protest management because

I think that was the police. You mean police or like marshals for the fish harvesters? Yeah,

the police. Okay. I don't think they... These folks didn't have marshals. You should have

seen them, Santiago. Have you seen the video? The horse is backing into them and the guy's

taking his cone. Ha! Get back! I was worried that horse was... like a back kick or something?

Well, some people did get hurt. And one of the shots in the articles I'll link is, you know,

the only people leaving the rally are the injured. And, you know, there were some. And these are

not like young folks, these are older gentlemen. It was just things we don't experience here

in Ontario. And I guess, yeah, it's a little bit unique in Newfoundland, but they. Their

determination and their their. Willingness to not back down was admirable. whatever their

cause, I suppose. Yeah, absolutely. And now the police are charging the people who hit

the horse. They're just kind of like, you know, ramming your car into a crowd and saying, oh,

you know, you scratched it. Like, you know, I think people have a right to- They've backed

it over and over. Face first, butt first. Like, and that's particularly dangerous. Oh, dear.

Oh, cops will charge anybody these days. Side note, the protestor that they arrested, not

the protestor, the picketer for QP3903 that we talked about this before, there were no

charges. There was nothing to charge them with, them with. And so we're seeing this over and

over again. They may arrest them and charge them, but I doubt that will actually go to

trial because it would be absolutely ridiculous. But it's just a real trend of police throwing

charges during these moments at... protesters and organizers and trying to shut these down

with horses. We see more and more use of that in Toronto as a response as well. And it's,

you know, it's something you got to prepare your members for going out there. But yeah,

it's a worrying trend for sure. Other than fish harvesters shutting down the Confederate building,

are there anything? Is there any other unique factors you think to organizing in Newfoundland?

Perhaps other than the obscene level of snow you guys get. That's not really funny because

that must impact 10 City. You mentioned that on Twitter and I was like, what are you worried

about? And she was like, snow, snow is, you know, was a huge barrier there. Yeah. We were

really concerned about people freezing to death this winter. We've made it through, it's spring

and everyone has been okay. And yeah, I mean, Ten City is interesting because there are a

lot of shelter spaces in the city, but a lot of them are kind of dirty, dangerous, degrading,

and people are protesting against them. So we're supporting that protest and people's right

to... to resist these like really awful options. And I think it's been really eyeopening for

a lot of people in this province. Like I think government kind of assumes like the poor are

gonna be quiet and not speak out against the oppression that they're facing because they're

like, like these are people who are like very, very low income. And like seeing... the community

support that's come around. I don't think a lot of people realized how bad it was and I

have been really educated and we are seeing a lot of, all of a sudden government has money

to build homes and repair, that was a big, huge thing. There were hundreds of government-owned

housing that were just in disrepair and some of them just needed a paint job before they

could let someone in, but they were just not putting money into it. Um, now they're, they

are funding all these like housing support workers and these different nonprofits and seem to,

I think because of the protest and, and those public support for the protest, um, they are

taking it like a lot more seriously. I think that is like one of the unique things about

Newfoundland is like, we do have like a bit of a big city, like a hundred thousand, 150,000

St. John's, um, maybe 200,000 kind of surrounding area. Um, but. it's still small, you still

kind of get to know each other. And especially around the Bay, there's the sense of camaraderie

and community and people are really trying to hold onto that. And so I think people are willing

to support each other. We are getting that Alberta influence of, especially young men are going

out and making a lot of money and I don't need anyone else. I can just take care of myself.

But I think generally where we've been, especially like a poor province too, for a long time,

like people are more willing to like look out for each other. And so that is definitely like

something that we're trying to like foster and support. One question I have is, how is it

that, how do people stay informed in Newfoundland? Like, how do people know about like the issues

that are affecting their community and stuff like that? because I imagine it's quite different.

And do you guys have a role in that? I guess this was a rather question. Yeah, I'm like

a Twitter addict, but I know the majority of people are not on Twitter. We have like CBC,

but there's also MTV here, which is like our news station, privately run, like pretty corporate.

And they also do like... they showed like Survivor, but they have their own like news program.

Um, and then we also have the OCM, which was started by like super rich people in St. John's,

but it stands for voice of the common man. And that is like a radio station that a lot of

people listen and in the morning they have this thing called open line and people like can

call in and talk about like issues that they're facing. Um, and that I would say like a lot

of people like around the Bay, a lot of like the older generation. Um, listen, listen to

that a lot. That's like the calling. I'm like scared to call in. I don't know. Yeah. You

gotta call in. Oh, hi. It's like nine to 12. I have the host is like hardcore. He will not

pop your bullshit. Um, I should call it more. And did they, did they pay much attention to

your efforts? Your organizing efforts? Does that tend to get coverage? Sometimes I would

say like 10 city is getting a lot of coverage and like when I say most St John's it's like

if there's a protest like you'll probably get some media attention Because like there's not

that much news happening But and like when So when we sent like the letter to our members,

so we did we get to the press So we're that important that you know, you know, it's like

our theft made the news

Um, but I, I feel like, all these press releases, you need all this coverage on really important

issues. And yeah, you end up getting a nice article written with the one memo you wish

they hadn't read. But it's just hard to get coverage like that period. So I don't think

it's just cause there's nothing going on. I think you guys are doing something meaningful

that is hitting a note with people and they're forced to cover it. because I mean, 200 members

and a population of like 200k? What? Because you're like, it's not small. Yes, it is, Carrie,

I'm sorry. This is where my Toronto center of the universe, like we come from a really big

city. That is small. So like what you're doing, it's big. You undersell yourself a lot. Like

you're telling us a lot, you're bragging to a degree, but I think you're underselling the

impact that you're having there. not just you, the organization, but yeah, let me just look

through my notes and see if there's anything else I wanted to ask about. Well, you know

what, let's just ask Carrie. I mean, do you have anything that, like, what do you want

to share with us that we wouldn't even know to ask, I guess? Yeah, I guess one thing I've

come, I need to tell everyone about the theft because I'm just like, it was the most horrible

thing that's ever happened to me. I hope it never happens to anyone else. One of my big

takeaways was like, you know, we want to be kind to each other in organizing. Like we need

to be like so grateful that other people are showing up to this space. But we also like

need to build the kind of trust that like we can hold each other accountable and like raise

questions and raise concerns like after the theft. people kind of came up to me and they

were like, oh, there was like this thing, like I wanted to ask and I did it. And maybe it

could have saved us some grief. And yeah, even though like we can trust each other so much,

having good accountability oversight processes in place is also, it also is taking care of

each other because like, our treasurer, like they're not in a better place now because of

like what happened. Like I think... they were dealing with their own stuff and we didn't

show them care by also not having good oversight. I think they wish that didn't happen and I

wish if we had looked at what was happening closer I don't think it would have happened.

So it's important in organizing to... Oversight is also taking care of each other. It's tough

because I mean... tons of organizations, but at the end of the day, oftentimes it's just

making it up as we go along, right? Like a lot of it, you learn by failing and that type of

thing, I think what's important is being able to bounce back from that. As I said earlier,

I think you guys did great job at dealing with that, just from what you're telling me. I guess

one thing I wanna ask is, are there other organizations in the area, or even... I'm going to use the

word area to mean whatever you want. Like it could be, you know, provincial. It could be

a bit further. But like are there other organizations that you guys have been able to like work with

or, you know, show up in solidarity at your events or vice versa? We are definitely not

doing it on our own. Like relationships and partnerships is such a big part of what we're

doing. I mean, one thing that's kind of funny is SBC is actually kind of like a background

organization, I would say, to a lot of like things that are happening. Like, we have a

challenge per culture coalition. We're involved in like the anti racism coalition. We're involved

in the migrant action collective, the indigenous activists collective. We a lot of our organizing.

You're not going to be able to list them all, I bet. Yeah. There's no way. There's the Fridays

for Futures theme song. There's a lot of stuff happening, and we're trying to keep an eye

on it and show up for them and like, oh, how do we share your message? Or right now, the

Palestine Solidarity, YYT, we're amplifying what they're doing. We wouldn't say we're organizing

it, but we're trying to support that. Yeah, try to be where the people are is our motto,

I guess. I love that. Yeah, because it's important not to double up on the work. Like, you can

recognize that there's areas where there needs to be advocacy or mutual aid, but you can almost

always bet there is a kernel of that work already being done, that with just a little bit more

resources, attention, whatever they need. you can grow that rather than duplicating and then

occasionally working together on some like-minded issue. I think this level of organizing is

critical. There's probably a few organizations, I think, in Toronto that sort of fit the bill.

The Workers Action Center,

the incubator. I think that's just a great analogy for it. Yeah, I really appreciate folks doing

that because you don't always get... Uh... It's not always glorious work, right? Doing the

background work and it can be hectic. So many moving parts. There is a question I did wanna

ask about all these moving parts and coalitions to be a part of. You only have infinite amount

of resources, or sorry, we wish. You have a finite amount of resources. I mean, you guys

are impressive in your fundraising, but still like that, that's... limited. And quite often,

even though you'll sit in a meeting and everyone will have great ideas, sometimes what forces

the sifting through ideas rather than allowing all of them to flourish is trying to find the

one that we can afford, the one we have people to volunteer for. And so sometimes really good

ideas fall by the wayside just from lack of resources. How do you keep saying all the different

ideas and still being able to sustain yourself as an organization? Yeah, it is challenging.

We have one staff who works 20 hours a week. And kind of we try to use the motto of like,

if there's a volunteer who's right, like willing to kind of take it on and we're gonna we're

there to support them and hopefully connect them with other people, like we'll do that.

But we don't really like. initiate anything ourselves. So, you know, if a volunteer says,

like, I can't organize, like, for example, I was leading a food sovereignty action team,

and I wasn't able to keep it on anymore. And, you know, we did all this work. And people

did come to meetings, but without having we didn't, if I stepped down, there was no other

volunteer who was like kind of willing to like, keep hosting those meetings and hosting events.

So we decided to just kind of let it go back to the wayside. And we have that information

on our website, like the work we did, I think, still matters. We still brought people together

to talk about issues that we cared about. But sometimes you kind of have to let things go

and then there's space for new things. And we really try to like... One of the things we've

talked about lately that we learned from Mutual Aid by Dean Spade was like the concept of like

no masters, no flakes. So it doesn't always work, but you know, the idea like we're not

here to tell you what to do. Like we're here to like try and bring you together and then

like, yeah, hopefully someone will take something on and with the support of others. But ideally

if you're gonna take something on, like you're gonna commit to it because it kind of just

like lets us all down. if you flake out. So that's, yeah, something we've been trying to

practice a little. But even myself, I want to be involved in so many things. And it's so

hard to know where to put your energy. I'm trying to personally right now, I'm trying to put

my energy in like direct action. Like I want to up the ante. So like, we're blocking an

entrance, like I'm showing up. Yeah, trying to figure out where I fit in the movement.

It's tough. There's always so many things that there's so many things that need attention

that need people doing the work and it's and even when you when you're doing so much, it

always feels like, but like, I can do a bit more. I can I can take on this one more thing.

I can do this one more thing and then you try it and you burn out and you know, we've been

there. So I definitely know how that goes. But you know, every little bit matters here. And

this sounds like, like I can think of so many communities in Ontario, for example, that are

a similar size to, like St. John's, for example, that don't have anything like this, you know?

Sudbury, Thunder Bay, Sault Ste. Marie, Windsor, you know, like the- There's plenty of places

that like this model needs to be repeated in. So honestly, like I almost feel like we should

bring you back some time to talk about this because I really, I really, it checks off like

everything that I appreciate. So I don't have much more to say. Sorry. But yeah, Jessa. I

love when you're in this mood though, Santiago. Every time we do a Blueprints, it's a totally

different feel when we get out of the studio. It's inspiring to hear the work firsthand and

work through some of these problems that we just collectively are trying to work through

in terms of moving the movement forward. But just thank you, Kerry. Thank you for coming

on and for persevering through all our technical difficulties and rescheduling. I appreciate

that. even more so appreciate the work that you do. Your firebrand is appreciated over

here. And yeah, all the work that's being done out in St. John's, Newfoundland. Thank you

very much. Oh, thank you for all your kind words. It's, yeah, it's a nice little boost to hear.

Yeah, and it's great to talk to folks from other parts of so-called Canada. I'm really glad

we got to. connect over Twitter. And yeah, hopefully I'd love to anytime anyone who's listening

wants to reach out and talk about our model. I'm here for it. So yeah, thank you for the

opportunity. I really appreciate it. That is a wrap on another episode of Blueprints of

Disruption. Thank you for joining us. Also a very big thank you to the producer of our show,

Santiago Halu-Quintero. Blueprints of Disruption is an independent production operated cooperatively.

You can follow us on Twitter at BPofDisruption. If you'd like to help us continue disrupting

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