How to Write & Publish Your First Book Without Burnout with Cindy Childress

Artwork for podcast Deeply Rested: Anti-Capitalist Conversations for Entrepreneurs

Episode 47 • 28th July 2025 • Deeply Rested: Anti-Capitalist Conversations for Entrepreneurs • Maegan Megginson

Maegan

If you are anything like me, you have secret fantasies about writing a bestselling book. You love the idea of expanding your impact by sharing your ideas with a wider audience. And let's be honest, your ego wouldn't mind seeing your name on a hardcover at your local bookstore either. So why haven't we done it yet?

Probably because you're wrestling with one of the big book writing mindset blocks. It'll take too much time. I'm not smart enough to write a good book. Everything I wanna say has already been said by somebody else. If any of this rings true, you are going to love today's conversation with Dr. Cindy Childress, the experts’ ghost writer.

Cindy is a book coach for entrepreneurs who want to make money and an impact. In this conversation, Cindy shares practical advice about how to overcome perfectionism and imposter syndrome and avoid burnout while writing your first book. She simplifies the publishing process while also sharing honestly about how much money you can expect to make from writing a book, a super important piece of intel when it comes to being deeply rested while working on a big project like your first book.

This conversation was originally recorded for my fundraising event, the Rest and Success Code, and I am so excited to be sharing it with you again here on the Deeply Rested Podcast. And hey, if you have any business friends who are thinking about writing their first book, do them a favor and text them a link to listen to this episode so that you guys can make a plan together for writing your first books.

Alright, grab your pen. Pop in those earbuds, and enjoy this deeply rested conversation with Dr. Cindy Childress.

Maegan

Hey, Welcome back to Season Three of The Rest & Success Code. I'm your host, Maegan Megginson. I'm a licensed therapist and business coach on a mission to help entrepreneurs become deeply rested and wildly successful. So I have a question for you today. Have you ever dreamed of writing a best selling book but feel held back by self doubt time constraints or fears of burnout? I most definitely have. And honestly, it was for primarily selfish reasons that I invited Dr. Cindy Childress, the expert's ghostwriter to give us the lowdown about what exactly is required to write a book, and what we can honestly expect to gain from writing a book as small business owners.

Cindy specializes in helping entrepreneurs write books that make money and an impact. Her clients achieve bestseller status, give TEDx talks, win Book Awards, sign book deals and so much more. Cindy herself holds a PhD in English from the University of Louisiana at Lafayette. And in addition to her bespoke ghost writing services, she leads online writing and editing courses and mentors aspiring authors. In other words, Cindy is the real deal. She is the perfect combination of sweet as pie and ruthlessly honest. So if you too are thinking about writing your very own book, I would love for you to join me in this open and honest conversation about how to write books that help us become wildly successful without burning out in the process. Sit back, relax and enjoy this conversation with Dr. Cindy Childress.

Hello, Cindy, welcome to The Rest & Success Code.

Cindy

Thank you, Maegan, I'm so happy to be here.

Maegan

Oh my gosh, Cindy, it is such a pleasure to have you. You and I have known each other for years now. And it's funny because I have wanted to have a conversation about book writing on this series since we started season one, we're now in season three. And I was thinking before you logged on today, like why did you wait so long to ask Cindy to be a guest to talk about writing books? And as I was just getting really honest with myself, Cindy, I was like, yeah, it's because I have my own blocks around book writing. And like so many of our listeners, so many of the people that I work with, we have these dreams of writing books, of sharing our thoughts, and we feel so overwhelmed by what feels like the magnitude of the dream that we just avoid it like the plague. And I know, like I know in my mind, Cindy, that writing a book can be such a key ingredient to becoming wildly successful. I think I have a lot of internalized beliefs about like book writing would require sacrificing my deep rest. So I really want to have an honest conversation with you today, Cindy, about how we can write books as thought leaders without burning ourselves out. What do you think about that?

Cindy

Yes, we can.

Maegan

We can? Are you sure, I'm scared?

Cindy

Absolutely.

Maegan

Okay, okay. So before we dive in, Cindy, can you just tell us a little bit about what you do?

Cindy

Yes, thank you. So I am Dr. Cindy, the experts’ ghostwriter. And over the past almost seven years, I've worked on 41 published books. Six of those are Book Award winners. And nine of them are best sellers. I also have two clients who signed two traditional book deals with New York publishers. So my clients are mostly therapists and coaches who want to write books to make money and an impact, and I help them through one to one ghostwriting. And also I have book writing courses and coaching/mentoring programs. So there's just a variety of ways that I help people get their books over the finish line.

Maegan

Wow, I'm so, I was- I don't usually ask people to introduce themselves. But I knew I had to ask you to introduce yourself because you're like, you bring receipts, you know? You're like, not only do I teach people how to write books, but let me prove to you that this is possible and that people can get really incredible results when they do the work of writing their stories, of sharing their ideas. You are such a gem, Cindy, I just want you to know. I just think so highly of you and I trust you, and I trust, and what I know in our friendship and our collegial relationship is that you tell the truth. You don't sugarcoat anything. But you also instill so much hope and possibility. It's just a really rare combination of someone who makes you feel brave and courageous and also really grounded in reality at the same time. I just, I don't know why I just wanted to say that. So, okay.

Cindy

I'm so glad we're recording. That was beautiful.

Maegan

It's just coming out of my heart right now, I just had to say it. So let's dive in. Let's give the people what they came here to hear. Which, Cindy, is an explanation about what it takes honestly, to write a book.

Cindy

Yes. So in order to write a book, what you need is a really irrational level of belief that you will absolutely do it. If you have that, everything else will fall into place. And if there are any chinks in that armor, we can still do it. But we're gonna have to fill those chinks along the way.

Maegan

Hmm, an irrational belief that you can write a book, can you explain your use of the word irrational in this statement?

Cindy

Yes, so this is the same thing I do when I'm ghost writing books, because I'm going to tell you all like a very dirty ghostwriting industry secret, like, the first draft is very messy. And sometimes even when I'm interviewing my clients, I'm not really sure where we're going. But they're like, saying something really interesting. So I want to follow that thread where it goes. And I'll be looking at the draft. And I'll be like, this is a total mess. But then when I sit down, I'm like, and I'm absolutely going to put it together. And, you know, I just never allow myself not to think this is going to be a great book. And then the next thing is, so what's the next thing I can do now to get us there? And with that very, like, you know, just what's the next step? What's the next step? Then, you know, you keep making progress instead of getting stuck.

Maegan

Hmm, that is really interesting. It's almost like a fake it till you make it sort of mentality, like, just give yourself permission to believe that it's possible, and give yourself permission to accept that it's going to be terrible, as well. Like, give me a like, Yes, I believe that I can sit down and write a first draft of a really terrible book, I believe that I can do that. It's almost like there's, there's something about lowering the bar that helps people commit to the process.

Cindy

It's very true in my last round of Crank Out Your Book in Eight Weeks. On the last day, one thing I do is have everybody go around and say like, what advice would you give yourself that on day one, before you started this journey with me, and the thing that I've heard more times than anything else is, you know, just give yourself permission to just write. And, you know, when you do that, you can always fix anything in editing. But what you can't edit is a blank page. So, once the words are there, you can play with them. And I really think about editing as playing. So you were saying earlier, like how to write a book without, you know, having it like, kill your joy, or however you put it, and a lot of it for me is it's the creative process. And just really, you know, allowing yourself to go all into it without being so hung up on, you know, the progress not perfection, as Marie Forleo says. But like, I mean, you will get it there, and you're gonna keep working on it until it is there. And then like, each time you sit down is like, cool. What am I doing today to make progress on my book? And, you know, just keep doing that as things fit together.

Maegan

I really appreciate the constant reminder and permission to write something really bad. A really messy first draft. And I think about myself, that's, that's never how I've written it. Something I'm really working hard to learn how to do, and even in graduate school. I didn't, I never revised my papers. I would just self edit as I went. So it took forever. But it felt like I only wrote one draft which wasn't actually true because I was editing as I went. But it has made it really hard for me, at this point in my career, to write something really messy. And I know that that blocks me in my own writing. It blocks me and my own creative expression because I'm trying to put something perfect on the page. And that doesn't work. That's what I'm hearing you say, is your you're not going to show up and do the writing every day and stay committed to this irrational belief that you can do it if you're trying to write the finished product your very first go around. Am I getting that right?

Cindy

Yes, you are. are, you know, it's really a failure of the higher education system that you know, within an English department, when even when I would write, you know, graduate papers, my professors would ask for a draft and they would give us feedback. And we will be taking on the same writing practice that we teach in first year writing, or I taught in advanced expository writing. But outside of our discipline, this is bizarre. So the writing professors realize our first idea is not genius. So we're going to have to go through some stages, and in most other disciplines, they assign a paper, and there's a due date, and that's kind of it. And it makes no, it's, it's really, like you're being done a disservice because there's this attitude that- first thought, best thought, or you either are a good writer, or you aren't. And, you know, those are the kind of stakes where there's one draft, but when you just put all that aside and say, Well, that may be true for some people, and like they're very lucky. And also, everyone else, thank goodness, they're drafts, there's editing.

Maegan

Wow, Cindy, that's, that's blowing my mind right now, I did not realize that. You know, if I would have been an English major, I would have learned a very different way to write. That there are actually people who are teaching writing in this iterative fashion, versus something that's more traditionally academic, like science or psychology. And we are the first idea is the best idea. One draft and you're done. Wow, this is a real paradigm shift for me. I just want to echo what you said a minute ago, every- you, correct me, you said it better than this. But like everything is fixable in editing.

Cindy

Yes. What we can't edit is a blank page.

Maegan

What we can't edit is a blank page. Like okay, that's, I'm holding on to that. Well, let's keep going. There's already so many juicy gems here. I think it might be helpful. If we look at an example. Can you share a story about one of your students and what the book writing process looked like for them in real life?

Cindy

Yes, and I actually have permission to tell her story. She's written me a beautiful testimonial. So Sandy Evenson, I'm going to show you the end. And then I'm going to show you how she got there. So her book, The Woo Woo Way debuted as an international best seller the day before it launched. And she also has won six Book Awards herself, for her book.

Maegan

Wow.

Cindy

speaker coaching workshop in: 2020

And that's why her book is winning awards now. And she went through an editing process as well. So when her first draft was finished, she worked with me to do a developmental edit, where we take it all apart and put it back together, you know, shuffle some chapters around, and, you know, move things around in the manuscript. And then she worked with a copy editor who went line by line for each sentence and found, you know, little word choice improvements and those kinds of things. So she had different editing processes with two different editors. And then she went to publish. So that is, that's one journey and one way it can look, but what I really want to focus on is that she didn't do all of that alone in her room with a computer. She worked with more than one person along the way. And she even worked with another writing coach before she worked with me. So you know, this was a practice and a skill that she was developing over time and letting it evolve and improve. And, you know, just like I said, every time she sat down to write, she got a little better, the manuscript got a little bit better. And, you know, then there she was, I think, from when she took my class, I believe it was about a year and a half to her published book, which is really very good.

Maegan

Wow, wow, thank you so much for sharing that story. It really helps put into context what the process looks like. And what strikes me is how systematic it is. That there's there really is it's not just, I mean, for me, sometimes I'm like, Oh, I gotta have all these big ideas. And they feel so big and so amorphous, that the thought of sitting down and I'm like, where do I begin, you know, it's, it feels like so much to do. But the way you describe it, there really is a system, there's a method to the madness of breaking down the ideas. So the systematic nature of it is standing out to me, I love what you're saying about your book doesn't have to be full of brand new ideas, you know, things no one else has figured out or said before, it's really a matter of sharing information through your voice, using your stories. And the third thing you're saying that really resonates is how it's a collaborative project, writing a book. It might be your book and your ideas, but you can't create something of this scope in isolation.

Cindy

You nailed it, yes, that's exactly what it is. And there's another piece of my process, particularly for writing the book, where in Crank Our Your Book in Eight Weeks, we have a word count tracker. And every week the students put in the amount of words they've written that week. And they get that little happiness hit, when they see their word count go up every time, and we begin class, you know, looking at everybody's sheet and you know, bragging on the person who got like, an amazing workout, like, how did you do that? And how did it feel and then, you know, for people that aren't as far along as they want it to be, you know, it's like, what's going on? Is there some support that you need, and usually they end up coaching themselves when they go through what's going on.

But it's like, there's something about the accountability of sharing your progress with other people, and even being positively motivated when somebody's really killing it. And then there's just because a book is a big project, it takes a long time to get there. So when you're measuring the increments that you're achieving along the way, you can, like see your progress growing, as you see that number, getting bigger. So you know, that's like also envisioning, right like how you get where you're going. And we start over with a new page when you're editing. And then you go on that editing journey to measure that progress.

Maegan

When I imagined too that as you see your word count, grow and grow that irrational fear that you can write the book begins to turn into something a little less irrational. You're like, oh, I can, I can do this. I am doing this! Like this is literally happening as we speak. That's so cool.

Cindy

You're exactly right.

Maegan

Okay, I want to come back to where we begin hearing this whole overview, really, it is helping ground me in how possible this is. But I still feel some resistance internally about where to start. And I get really overwhelmed at the idea of where to start. So I'm wondering if you have any specific advice, or reassurances, you can give those of us who are overwhelmed by the starting point.

Cindy

Yes. So when I talk to people who want to write a book, one of the first things I have asked is, have you tried yet? And how much have you already written? And the most common responses I get are either I've written a few pages, and I'm stuck. Or I have like 18 outlines, and I don't know what to do. And the thing is, so you can over plan. But in order to avoid that, but also have some kind of plan. I like to start looking at who's gonna read your book, why would they want to read it? What is it that you have to say to them, that will be a value to them, that is easy for you to deliver or speak to? And that's where I like to start the book. And then we think for where your reader wants to be on the other side of reading your book. And just for example, so it can be a feeling right if it's a memoir, maybe someone feels hopeless and scared and they want to feel hopeful and confident. Say it's like a cancer memoir or something. And then for a self help book, maybe someone, you know, it's to be kind of like cliche, they're stuck. And they want to feel unstuck. Well, how exactly and then you create the journey from that first win that you give them on the problem they're thinking about all the way through to where you want them to be at the end of the book, such that they're ready to continue engaging with you, and learning from you. And having you be the leader on this journey that you have started them on with your book. Of course, that can be selling them things or following you somewhere at very least. And when you look at it that way, then you're kind of reverse engineering, where you're going to begin and exactly what this book needs to look like.

Maegan

It's the systematic nature of your process. There's another element here that is really ringing true for me. And I'm just like putting words to it right now. There's something about starting the process, it sounds simple, as I'm thinking, but I'm gonna say it anyways, there's something about starting with, who is this for, and really connecting to the love that I have in my heart to share with the people that I want to speak to, and really kind of grounding myself in, not the ego of the project, there's certainly- anybody who writes a book has some ego, let's be honest, you know, like, we all want to be a best seller, we want our name on the cover, like there's ego in wanting to write a book. But the ego doesn't help us actually write the book. It's, it's the love and the connection and the passion, that will bring us back to the page when we're overwhelmed, or we're tired, or we feel stuck. So I really appreciate the way you're talking about connecting to your why. Connecting to who this is for and what you want to say to them, and then using an outline as a strategy to turn the volume down on the overwhelm that you're feeling. Because you can see the pathway, you can see the roadmap of what you're saying and how you're going to say it. Those both feel like very helpful strategies for me in overcoming the overwhelm.

I want to shift us to the next thing that I think blocks us from writing our own books, which is really has to do with mindset, and it has to do with fear. I feel like what I hear in my own brain and from my clients, most often when we're talking about writing our own books, it's imposter syndrome, who am I? Who am I to write this book? I'm not smart enough to write this book, I'm not good enough to write this book, no one, no one's going to want to read what I have to say about this topic. So I want to know what you have to say to those of us who are really riddled with impostor syndrome.

Cindy

First of all, it's perfectly normal. So this is not a sign that you should run away. This is a sign really, that you're in the same place. And you're having fears that people have had ever since, you know, writers tried to follow Shakespeare from, you know, the next generation on. So you know that. But the thing is, when it comes to not feeling like you're enough of an expert, or that kind of thing, usually, you're trying to write the wrong kind of book. And what I mean is, if you don't feel like you're enough of an expert, maybe you're imagining that you have to write a book, like you know about vulnerability, you want to do it like Brene Brown with tons of original research and you know, you like your own. And then that can feel very overwhelming if you're not a research professor.

And then at the same time, if you are, you know, say a coach, and you want to write a book about vulnerability, if you just shift where you're looking on the metaphorical bookshelf, let's say in the library of amazon.com. And we'll look for other books about vulnerability by people who are not research professors. And you're going to find this entire row of books that are about other people who are coaches or motivational speakers, and you're gonna see that the level of information there is still valuable, but like it's not, it's not as refined. It's not as heavily researched with a giant annotated bibliography at the end. And you start realizing I was trying to write a book as if I was a professor. What I should be doing is writing a book, as I am, the authority that I claim, which is over here.

And so that can be one way to approach that part of that fear. Now, the other thing I heard you say that really resonated with me as who would want to read this? And that always goes back to audience so anytime I hear a student or even a private ghostwriting client say, I don't know if anybody would even want to read this? I say, well, let's think about that. Who is our target reader again? Do they already know this? Or is this gonna not be relatable to them and the reason they're picking your book up? Then you're absolutely right. Maybe this doesn't go here. And then another thing we can do is say, well, that target reader doesn't seem to want a lot of what's in this book. But there's this other group of people who would totally want it. So sometimes the answer is just to pivot your audience. And this can happen, again, like if you're trying to write your book, and you're thinking about why would someone want to read something by me, and you're thinking about your mentors or other colleagues in your field. And like, I mean, yeah, that bar would be really high if you don't want your book to just be entertaining, but actually, to have something new in it.

But if you're writing to beginners, people who are you know, behind you in the process, people like the people that you like to coach and work with, and that's who you're writing to, then you're probably going to feel like a perfect, a perfectly qualified expert. And you know, tons of people want to hear this from you, because they already do. A final thing I'll say about that is sometimes we just need to pressure test it to make sure we're right. So I encourage people to post on social media on the topic that you're thinking about in your book. Like, I don't know if people want to hear about this or not. And it can even be as simple as- I'm thinking about writing about this. Would anyone want to read that? What questions do you have? And just like, see what you get. And always remember that you really, for a successful book, any successful book, we have to write for one primary audience. It's either going to be, usually people that are kind of newer to the space, or it's going to be to other experts. We can't please everybody. So once you really dedicate yourself to the lane that you choose, then don't worry about if people outside this lane would care. Who cares, you're not writing the book for them. If they do, that's a bonus.

Maegan

Wow. Okay. This is really great. Cindy. I, I want to come back to you're looking in the wrong section of the library. So I'm like, oh, man, I bet this is where a lot of people are getting stuck. Who doesn't compare themselves to Brene Brown at some point or another?

Cindy

Yeah, I do, too. I was actually thinking today about something I feel like writing and then I'm like, Why should I bother? Brene Brown already wrote Atlas of the Heart.

Maegan

Yeah, I feel like she's covered so much ground. And she's so like in the zeitgeist for those of us in the helping professions, the service professions, that we are so quick to be like, oh, Brene already did it. You know, Esther Perel already did it. Elizabeth Gilbert already did it, whoever it is that you, you look to for inspiration. But what you're saying that I'm really going to think a lot more about is they, they actually wrote a different type of book than I would be writing. Maybe there are some content similarities. In fact, the more the merrier, there should be content similarities when we're talking about themes that are so universal, and so important. But if you look on the shelf in the library, and you feel like you don't belong on that shelf, maybe you need to look at a different shelf, maybe it's a, there's something about that, Cindy, that I need to spend some time chewing on. But it feels like it could be the key to unlocking the creative flow, for many of us who have ideas about things that we want to say and do. And it's also highlighting for me how much academic conditioning I still carry in my body, even though I haven't been in an academic setting in a very, very long time, that there is still this part of me, that just assumes you can only write about it if you can back it up with lots of research and lots of sources. And I'm hearing you say so clearly, yeah, no, actually, most books aren't written like that. You have a little more creative flexibility in being able to say what you want to say, in the way that you want to say it.

Cindy

Yes, that's exactly right. And there's also the difference between like a memoir or a self help book or more of a research driven kind of informational, topical book. And, you know, sometimes it's just your story, and that's it and your authority is your story. And outside of that you don't really have a lot of authority on your subject except you went through it. So, you know, people will come to me and that's really the kind of book they end up writing, but they feel like they have this burden of information to share because they learned so much along the way. And one thing I've done so that they have enough information there that the reader, like, understands things that were happening is, you know, maybe put it in your doctor's voice. You know, if you like, ask a question in a, you know, an appointment and have them tell you because you're like, my doctor told me all that, and then you're like, I went, and you're like, just, just give like just the pieces. Because really, it's your story that you're sharing. You're, you know, and then for a self help book, that's a lot more story driven, although even a topical research book, a good one will also have a narrative arc to it. But you know, it's really more stories, you know, this is my experience, this is what I've learned, here are some tidbits, and you know, here's some exercises or reflection questions you can do. And then, you know, you go to the next chapter, and that's, you may have some sources, but not many, you don't have to.

Maegan

That's really freeing. It's really, yeah, it's kind of liberating to be like, I wrote down what you said, your authority is your story. And your story can very well be enough, more than enough for the book that you need to write, which basically means we have everything we need to write our books inside of us already. We don't need to go out and do tons of research, we can write with the information we have in our bodies and our minds right now. Which is another way to just turn the volume down on overwhelm. Okay? This is exciting, Cindy. Maybe you're swaying me to write a book sooner rather than later, TBD?

Cindy

Feeling a little more real.

Maegan

It's feeling kind of real. Let's move into the next question, which is the next place that we can get smacked in the face with overwhelm and self doubt. And that is publishing and marketing. Okay, so fine, I get over myself, and I write my book. And I feel pretty proud of it. But then it feels like there's a whole other mountain to climb, when it comes to getting the book into the hands of the people it's meant for. Can you talk about the publishing and the marketing process, especially if there are any tips or ideas you have about how we can simplify that process? Do you know, really just lower the bar yet again?

Cindy

Absolutely. And the first thing I'll say if someone's overwhelmed with the ideas of publishing and marketing is ask yourself, the founder of Toyota created this like the five why's I think, like, just keep asking yourself why. I did this with a ghostwriting client. One time her book was done, it was edited, it was really good. She was sitting on the Publish button, and I was like, what's going on? And she said that she gained a lot of weight after she had her second child, and she hadn't lost it, and the child was like, 11 now and like a lot of people she hadn't seen in a long time. And if she was going to have to physically be the face and presence of this book, she wanted to lose some weight first. And that was just very heartbreaking, in a lot of different ways. And she ended up publishing anyway, and not one person said anything unkind of her about her weight, and you know, she has a healthy son, and that is what really matters. And she's healthy. But really, the way to get around that was to kind of say like, what do you, what's the worst thing that could happen? What, you know, like, who are the kind of people, are the kind of people that would even feel the way you're describing the kind of people that like, should be reading your book, or that you wrote your book for? And, you know, so like looking at that, then we were able to get that part out of the way and just say, Okay, well, what needs to be done here?

So for publishing, there are for self-publishing, there are two different ways you can do it. There's completely self-publishing, in which you do everything yourself. For the book cover design, the interior formatting, you can use a platform called Ingram Spark, Ingramspark.com. And that's actually what most of the second way you can publish a book, which is a hybrid publisher. So you pay them to do all that for you. Most of them also use Ingram Spark. So you can cut out the middleman if you are comfortable project managing your book by yourself. And you can always hire contractors for things that you need to troubleshoot or that you can't do, but you know, you're still owning it.

Or if all that sounds like a big headache and a reason not to even start, then you can hire a hybrid publisher, and you can pay them and they will help you with your cover design. They will...

Maegan

A private publisher you called it?

Cindy

Hybrid. Yeah, like a hybrid car. And they'll probably assign a copy editor to you, if they're a reputable one, because they care about the quality of the books. They're gonna really care that yours is really good. And they may even do a best seller launch for you to help you hit number one on Amazon. You can also be your own best seller launch. And you don't have to go through anybody else. And when it comes to actually selling books, there's a lot of, there's a lot of misconception and I think like false hopes. So you know, you said that I gotta tell it like it is and tell it like it is here.

Maegan

Please!

Cindy

So, it's like, very sad, but very true. It's not enough to just write a great book and put it up for sale. You have to write a great book and put it up for sale, and sell your heart out of that book. Our mentor, Laura Belgray started pre selling her book, like, four months before it was published, and she's still selling it today, you know, several months after it was published. And to really get a lot of books and a lot of hands, which is different from being a quote, unquote, best seller. But what I care more about is over a period of time, say, one to two, three years, to keep selling your book to more and more readers. This too, is a journey, it's not a one step, and we're done. And when you look at that, you know, it's about building partnerships and relationships, you know, finding people whose audience your book would resonate with, and, you know, offering to, you know, give a guest talk and, you know, like, whatever it would make sense to get your book into people's hands. But these are things that you keep doing.

list. They're trying to sell: 1000

Maegan

Well, okay, this makes me curious to talk about money. Because what I've heard, and I would love for you to tell me if this is right or wrong, is that you don't write a book to replace your income. You don't write a book because you want to get rich, you're really writing a book to establish credibility in your industry or in your field. Tell me, is that true? Is there anything that you would add to that?

Cindy

Yes, so the average nonfiction book, and this is overall average. So traditionally and self-published nonfiction books sell 400 copies, on average.

Maegan

Wow, the average nonfiction book sells 400 copies?

Cindy

Now, we all want to be above average, but let's be realistic, we can double that. And it's only 800. Okay, you know, so with that in mind, then the question becomes, for the people who do read this book, what needs to happen in order for that to have still been, let's say, like, making sense on the bottom line? So that's why it makes a lot of sense for people with high ticket programs or, you know, more exclusive masterminds, anything where if you sold to, let's say, one to 10% of those 400 people, you know, if that's, that can be like, a really mega sale on like a high ticket program. So when you look at things like that, you can see how the certain people with the right kind of business can very quickly recoup their investment with just a few sales rather than thinking, I'm going to sell these books $21.99 at a time and one day, I'm going to have this big stack of money. Like, it's can happen, but it's not likely and don't go in with that expectation.

The other thing is just by virtue of having that book and pitching yourself to speak, you're gonna find yourself getting, you know, higher profile, larger speaking engagements, they'll come to you more easily. People will even find you through your books, they're looking for an expert on something to bring in. And, you know, those can be paid events. You can find more clients from those events, whether they buy your book or not. They're going to see that as a major credibility marker. And that's even true on your website, on any of your social profiles, even if they don't buy your book and they never read it, just the fact that you have it, if they can see some positive reviews or something, they're gonna be like, well, she knows what she's talking about. So there's a lot of ways this can pay you back.

Maegan

This, I'm thinking about my own habits as a consumer. And honestly, I don't read that much nonfiction, I read way more fiction than I do nonfiction. But when I land on someone's website, and they have their book plastered all over the homepage, I'm immediately impressed. Doesn't mean I should be. I mean, it might be total crap, what they've written, I don't know. But there is just something about seeing a book, that you wrote a book that just- even if the books are no good, I'm like, wow, that person's really committed to this content area. Like they have a book that was like a big project, you know, and it does establish, it establishes such deep credibility. And I love what you're saying about how it brings people into your orbit, who you otherwise probably wouldn't come into contact with, people who are looking for speakers or looking for experts to interview in the media, you know, or to, quote, in an article that they're writing. You are being seen in a bigger way, even if only 400 people buy your book. It doesn't mean only 400 people have seen your book, I think that's what's really landing for me right now. It's less about, as sad as that might feel, it's less about how many people read your book cover to cover. And it's more about how many people see that you've written this thing, that you have really planted a flag in the sand that says I'm an expert. And I have something to say about this topic. And that is a really powerful way to create wild success for you and your career and in your business. Am I getting this right? Is there anything you want to correct me on?

Cindy

I mean, the word you used is perfect because it is wild, like wild flowers. Yes. And I just heard on NPR yesterday, there was a story about these people in Vermont, who just really got tired of keeping up this area of property. So they decided to plant wildflowers there. And now they call it a meadow. And like their, their neighbors that they don't even know who they are, where they live, will be like, oh, yeah, you're the house was the flowers. And wildflowers also spread, they spread on their own. So the couple planted them at first, this didn't just happen. But once they're planted, then you know, they just kind of trickle out. And this happens with your book and you create ripple effects that you may not even see. But you know, are out there.

Maegan

Wow, what a beautiful image Cindy, this idea that with our books, we are planting a small meadow of flowers. But then once the book is published, self, self-published, hybrid publisher, going full in on traditional publishing, regardless of what publishing route you take, and there's a path for everyone is what I'm hearing, regardless of what route you take, the seeds that you plant will begin to spread. And that's what we all want as thought leaders, as service providers, we want when we tap into the love that we have to share, to the goodness we want to give to the world. We want to spread the good word with the people we care about, with the people we're here to serve. And that is something a book can help you do in a way that traditional marketing, being on social media, writing emails can't. The reach is broader.

Cindy

Yes. And it's, and it's easier in a way, you know, how many episodes does a podcast have to have before it really has a cache? You know, as opposed to one book? I would say in a certain way, it depends. If you're like a very verbal person, maybe like 300 podcasts is what you would rather do. But like I would think maybe for a lot of people, a book is kind of less work than that. It sounds like it to me anyway.

Maegan

Right? What a great point, Cindy, it's about really getting clear on how do you create? We have a lot of episodes this season on Rest & Success Code about creativity. And it feels like you're tapping into something really important that if you aren't a writer, don't write a book. You know, if you don't have a writing practice, if writing isn't something that really fills you with joy and feels naturally like a creative outlet, do the podcast. You know if you're a speaker, if you have conversations, do the podcast like, permission granted to move in whatever direction your energy naturally takes you. But if you know that you're someone who likes to write, who likes to be behind the computer, who prefers maybe the insular work of writing a book to the more you know, the the more public work of having a podcast or speaking on stages, writing a book is something that we can do without burning ourselves out, we can do it systematically, we can build community around the experience to hold us accountable, to get support when that inevitable impostor syndrome shows up.

And we don't have to set pie in the sky goals about what our books achieve, it's unrealistic to assume that you're going to have a New York Times bestseller, chances are, you're going to sell between 400-800 copies of your book, you're going to plaster it all over your website, and you are going to let the wildflower seeds spread organically. And let the attention come to you as a reward for all of the effort you've put in to establishing yourself as a subject matter expert. That's the realistic path when it comes to people like us writing books, am I getting it?

Cindy

It's very true. And you know, the other thing is even, you know, famous authors, Elizabeth Gilbert, you know, she had written several books before Eat, Pray, Love. And when she was writing that book, she didn't have the feeling every day- woo hoo, this book is going to put me on the map. Julia Roberts is going to star as me, you know, right? It's like, oh, I don't know what I'm doing here is probably crap, but it's just what I'm thinking. And she wrote it anyway. And it ended up of course, being huge. But you know, she's written several books before that did okay, but not as huge. And really, I would say the books she's written after have, you know, built on the success of Eat, Pray, Love, but they haven't- Julia Roberts hasn't starred her again. I think she, I think Elizabeth wouldn't mind me saying that. You know,

Maegan

It's just a fact.

Cindy

But you know, like, when we're creating anything, we always want to have that irrational belief, like we have to be self motivated by some outcome that we're working toward. And it's really smart if that outcome can be something that doesn't depend on other people. That certainly doesn't depend on some, like, not published guidelines by some New York book, editors, New York Magazine, New York Times, book section, don't hang your hat there, you know, hang your hat somewhere that you know, you can control and you will be able to- you, you can get yourself there because it does not depend on external success. That's the really smart way. And then like, once it, once you have it out there, you know, who knows? It could, you know, anything is possible.

Maegan

Who knows? Really, yeah, I love that I love. I know, I keep saying in this interview, like set the bar low. It's something that I say to myself, often, like half being silly, half being serious, like, I'm just gonna set the bar low. So I've never disappointed, you know, like, the bars nice and low. I know, I can always step over it. And that works really well for me, because I, I do well, when I have little tiny goals, I know I can achieve I move, I move at a faster pace towards something bigger and grander. When I take one tiny little step at a time. And I'm thinking about that with book writing, that I'm not going to go into my project thinking that I'm going to be a New York Times bestseller and, and Brene Brown is going to be my new best friend, and we're gonna have a podcast together like, I'm not going to jump there, because then the pressure feels so huge when I sit down to work on the project. If I sit down and say, you know what, 400 people are gonna buy this book, and I'm gonna put it on my website. And that's it. All of a sudden, I feel less stressed out about it. I can kind of, I can do it and actually get to the finish line. And then hey, if it does become a bestseller and Brene Brown does want to start a podcast with me, I will be delightfully surprised. I'm open to it, but I'm not counting on it. And there's something about that distinction that's really important, I think.

Cindy

Yes, absolutely. And, you know, it's also just the idea that this is a book, not the book.

Maegan

Oh, that's great.

Cindy

Especially for a first time author, we think that this book has to have every single joke that I've ever made. And every single insight that I've ever had, every person that I've known has to be in it. And like, just like this is a book, there may be more, what does this book need? That's another way to keep moving faster. You know, the other thing about marketing is, a lot of times when people have that fear and that pressure that can cause them to spend a lot of money that really is very hard to have much of a return on, that I do want to kind of guard just put up put a little feeler in everybody's minds as you're looking at- what do you think, how much do you think you need to spend in order to get your book bought? You know if you have a small list, don't expect to sell oodles of books. And you really, it's very hard to even buy your way out of that. You can partner with other people to promote your book for you and with you. And that can be really big if those people have big audiences. So like, keep that in mind. If we can't do it with our list, where else can we do it? But also, I mean, that's audience cannot be bought, it has to be earned at the end of the day. So that, you know, it's not always about money. It's sometimes it's just about finding the people and building the relationships. And that's what nobody wants to hear it because it's hard and it takes effort, and it takes time. I would say maybe even more than just the writing of the book. But you know, that it really takes.

Maegan

I so appreciate your honesty about that. I think more people need to hear that message. Writing a book for people who are where we are in our businesses, it's not about the money, you're not writing it for the money. So as you are so wisely saying, be careful about how much money you spend writing the book, if you are sitting on beaucoup money, and you have the discretionary income to treat it like a hobby, to treat it like a side project, great, go for it, have fun. But don't spend money you don't have thinking that you're going to get a return or a financial return on investment. That is not how it works for most people, just be open and honest with yourself about that.

The other thing that I want to reflect as we come to the end is about timing. And you've planted seeds throughout our conversation today about timing and how long this takes and what the roadmap looks like from idea to published book. And when we think about lowering the bar, really lowering the expectations about what this is, what my first book is, what it achieves for me. I also want to give myself permission to take as long as I need writing the book. That there's no need to rush or to say I have to be totally finished with this in, you know, eight weeks or six months. Let it take as much time as it takes. I think that's going to be a real key to writing a book in a way that doesn't create burnout, that doesn't add, you know, too much overwhelm to our already busy schedules. What can you say to us, Cindy, here at the end of our conversation about expectations around timing and how to give ourselves permission to let this project take as much time as it needs to take?

Cindy

Yes, so the fastest book I've ever finished from idea to author hitting published was four months. And that book debuted as an international bestseller. And it was awesome. And then it only had 27,000 words, so it was on a smaller word count. I think that matters. This wasn't a 400 page tome. And the longest that I've worked on a book with a client from start to finish line is two and a half years. And the difference between these two clients is the first one already knew everything that needed to happen. And she had those pieces in place. So she hired me to go straight and edit the manuscript. She already had a graphic designer lined up to do the cover and the interior formatting. She hired a third party just for uploading it on Amazon and Barnes and Noble and a best seller launch. So she had, you know, she hired out where it made sense, and she project managed where it made sense. And she never wavered from her irrational belief that she was going to do it by her birthday. And she did. And then the one that took two and a half years, what was so interesting is when she came to me, she had a concept for her book that was as strong and solid as that four-month author. But she couldn't really imagine what was going to happen, what she even wanted to happen after the book. And we were talking about that thing that you want to happen that's within your control. And she was always just a little fuzzy on that. And the second that came into focus for her. I mean, it was like, sprinting, to get it all the way out there.

Maegan

It just goes to show that everyone's journey is so unique and different. And there's no point in comparing yourself to anyone else's timeline. It's arbitrary. It can take as long as it takes. Yeah, and I think that's, that's just what I want to say, you know, we're here we're here at the Rest & Success Code like we are talking about, how can we create wild success in our lives and our businesses without sacrificing our wellbeing without sacrificing our time for rest and care, care for ourselves, care for our relationships. And when you take on a huge project, like writing a book, it's crucial that you are really mindful and intentional about your own personal timeline, so that you aren't sacrificing any of the things that are important to you in terms of how you're living your life, how you are showing up in your business. So I think it just needs to take as long as it takes and the second I tried to put myself on someone else's timeline, is the second I become overwhelmed and stressed. And I jump on that roller coaster to burnout. So I think we individually just have to really hold ourselves responsible for holding our values, holding our boundaries, and making sure that we proceed at our own pace.

Cindy

Yes, and there's one thing I'll add to that. So in my Crank Out Your Book In Eight Weeks, what I asked my students to do is give me at least one hour a day, most days a week to work on your book. And really, that one hour is strategic for a lot of reasons, but a big one is burnout. Because when you think about writing a book, we probably think about going to a cabin and locking ourselves in there till it's done. And we're not going to shower, and we're going to eat gross takeout food. And we're not going to exercise and like finally, we're going to write this brilliant book. But especially women, what's more likely to happen is we write in the margins of our time. So look at those margins, maybe going to a cabin for a few weeks isn't even feasible, much less, I don't think it's a good idea to go weeks without taking care of yourself.

In fact, another thing that I teach and Crank Out Your Book In Eight Weeks is to make sure that you're still doing healthy movement. And this is not time to start, you know, you've like taking shortcuts on healthy food, and even getting enough sleep, like don't sacrifice your sleep for your book, it doesn't even help you in the long run. Because if you do all those things, then you're going to feel depleted. Then when you think about working on your book, again, you're gonna think oh, man, I don't want to go through all that. Well, who would? But if you're just like, it's an hour, I'm going to do what I'm going to do. And I'm gonna come back tomorrow and just another hour, then, you know, you keep those boundaries in place to do everything else that's important to you.

Maegan

Thank you so much for saying that, Cindy. It's such a loving way to think about how we are taking care of ourselves while writing our book. And it's very symbiotic. The more we take care of ourselves, the more we actually have to give to the thing that we are creating. And then we're in this exchange, you know, me and the book are in this exchange, this healthy relationship together. Cindy, you are such a gift and you shared, I just, I love how practical this conversation was. Just a really beautiful mix of things to sit with emotionally and philosophically as we're thinking about why we might want to write a book and what kind of fears and mindset blocks might get in our way of doing that. It is counterbalanced with a hefty dose of practicality, like here's what you need to know, here's the reality, here are the numbers. There is so much here for all of us to sit with and unpack and you are a very generous host in the way that you share your knowledge and information with people who are interested in becoming writers, becoming authors. So thank you. It's a real privilege to have you here, Cindy, and I can't wait to let you know when I'm ready to start working on my book.

Cindy

Ready when you are, haha!

Maegan

I hope you loved this conversation with Dr. Cindy, and that you arrived at the end of this episode feeling more empowered and inspired to actually make your big book idea a reality. If you need more support in the book writing process, Cindy is here for you, and she has a really cool freebie called the Discover Your Number One Bestselling Author Personality quiz, which is gonna give you lots of inspiration and insights as you set out to start your book.

You can take that quiz for free at cindychildress.com/quiz. That's cindychildress.com/quiz. Thanks so much for listening to the Deeply Rested Podcast. I can't wait to talk to you again next week.

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