There’s a heated debate happening in the pet food space around copper in dog food. This essential trace mineral is critical for canine health, yet veterinarians have recently begun to speculate on excessive dietary copper causing liver disease in dogs—but there’s much more to this story. Join us as we unravel the copper controversy with experts from BSM Partners, Zinpro Corporation, and Trouw Nutrition.

Helpful Links

Is Copper-Associated Hepatopathy the new DCM? https://www.petfoodprocessing.net/articles/17850-is-copper-associated-hepatopathy-the-new-dcm

Unraveling the Copper Controversy: https://www.petfoodprocessing.net/articles/18426-unraveling-the-copper-controversy

Empowering Listeners to Separate Good Research from the Bad:

• Pawing Through the Research: Uncovering the Fatal Flaws of DCM: https://bsmpartners.net/barking-mad-podcast/pawing-through-the-research-uncovering-the-fatal-flaws-of-dcm
• Think Twice: Even Bad Science Can Get Published! https://bsmpartners.net/barking-mad-podcast/think-twice-even-bad-science-can-get-published

Show Notes

00:00 – Welcome and Introduction

01:31 – Is CAH the New DCM?

04:00 – Understanding Copper

09:22 – Breaking Down CAH: Copper-Associated Hepatopathy

11:40 – Insights on Incidence

13:36 – Historical Copper Recommendations

16:50 – The Controlled Copper Claim Debate

20:42 – The Importance of Source

24:02 – How Pets Handle Copper

28:12 – Less About Level, More About Source

30:01 – A Historic Retraction

31:30 – Correlation vs Causation

33:23 – A Lack of Research, and Opportunities for More

42:15 – The Speed of Information (And Misinformation)

44:59 – Conclusion and Farewell

Jordan Tyler: Every time you feed your pet, you're giving them dozens of essential nutrients, including one that sparked a heated debate in the veterinary world, copper. This common mineral, found in everything from shellfish to nuts and seeds to organ meats like liver, helps our pets bodies function in countless ways. But recent claims that copper in commercial dog food could be harming our canine companions has left many pet parents wondering: should they be worried?

Welcome to Barking Mad, a podcast by BSM Partners. I'm your host, Jordan Tyler.

Both involved a group of vets who thought they saw something and decided to speak up, and both times these groups generally lacked the scientific data needed to substantiate their claims. In the case of DCM, there was no hard and fast data to show that the incidence rates of dilated cardiomyopathy were actually on the rise, and we’re seeing the same in this more recent copper conversation—point blank, there is not sufficient research in dogs to fully understand how much copper they need, let alone how much copper is optimal for a particular breed or at what level they could be deficient.

In the case of DCM, grain-free dog foods were the scapegoat, even though research conducted by BSM Partners over the last several years proves this heart disease is multifactorial, meaning there are many factors at play and there is still much to study before we can confidently say we’ve gotten to the bottom of the issue. And similarly with copper-associated hepatopathy, copper levels in dog food are being demonized, even though the research needed to set science-based recommendations for copper levels in commercial dog foods does not exist. There just isn’t any out there, so how could we possibly know—and further, why would we make a sweeping change based on conjecture and without knowing if it will benefit or harm our canine companions?

I was chatting about these parallels with a friend and she literally said, “So, this has happened twice? That’s crazy!” And I couldn’t agree more. So, at the very least, this episode is a warning for pet parents to understand all the factors at play when it comes to copper in dog food, as well as a call to action for the pet food industry to fund and facilitate research so we can ensure the nutrient recommendations they adhere to are truly based in science and not on assumption.

So, is the copper in your dog's diet silently causing them harm? To understand this, first we must understand what copper is, where it comes from, and how limitations to our science-based understanding of safe copper levels in dogs have led to a contentious conversation among pet and veterinary professionals.

We have Dr. Blaire Aldridge, PhD Nutritionist and Vice President of Nutrition Services at BSM Partners, here to help us break down some of these questions. Dr. Aldridge, would you mind giving us an explanation of what copper is, where it comes from, and why it's so important for health?

Dr. Blaire Aldridge: Well, copper is a trace mineral that's required by all living organisms, and it's really essential for a multitude of bodily functions, including respiration, connective tissue formation, iron metabolism, and neurological functions.

So it's really cool because its ability to form tight complexes with organic molecules makes it ideal to be a cofactor in many enzymes involved in all of these processes. And so, you ask where it comes from, and ingredients typically used in pet food that provide copper include liver—which is actually the main storage site in mammals for copper—some fish, some whole grains, and very specific copper sources such as copper sulfate.

Um, so that's where most of our pet food is getting their copper from. And common symptoms of copper deficiency in dogs include anemia, weakened immune function, skeletal abnormalities. And the reason this happens is that copper deficiency affects all of those enzymes I spoke about earlier, all of those enzymes that require copper to work in the body. So, when they no longer have it. That's how these deficiencies show up.

Jordan Tyler: So we call these trace minerals because they are fed in very, very small amounts, when actually they play huge essential roles in the body. But they don't operate alone. Dr. Aldridge mentioned copper is a cofactor in many enzymes, and by this she means is copper serves as a catalyst for tons of different processes in the body that keep our pets healthy, happy and comfortable.

Essentially, a deficiency in copper creates a chain reaction in the body, and since we know copper is integral for all these different systems in the body, it’s imperative that we approach any potential adjustments with extreme caution. For example, by lowering copper levels in dog food across the board—which is what researchers are suggesting, and we’ll get more into that a little later—we could be setting perfectly healthy dogs up for having copper deficiencies. So, making changes without all the knowledge needed to inform those decisions is essentially just putting a band-aid on one problem and potentially causing another.

I’m rambling, but Dr. Aldridge, coming back to what copper is and what it does in the body, could you elaborate a little more on the interplay of copper with other trace minerals inside a pet's body?

Dr. Blaire Aldridge: So copper is very excitable. It's one of the few ones that is very excitable, which is why it's required in so many of these enzymes in the body. So what it can do—has it's cup of coffee, basically in the morning and it takes its electron, it can donate or take an electron. And so it's one of the few that can really bind, like I said earlier, those tight complexes because it can latch on pretty tightly, but once it's done, it can release, it can really move energy is, is really what I'm summing up.

I think one of the things that makes copper so unique is that it plays a role as an antioxidant in copper zinc superoxide dismutase. But if it's left on its own devices, it's actually a pro-oxidant, which is why it can be so damaging to cells. But its main role in these enzymes is to help neutralize free radicals. So, it's very important in the body. That's just one of many, many functions that it has.

Jordan Tyler: So if you're unfamiliar with terms like antioxidant and pro-oxidant, let's break that down. A pro-oxidant causes oxidative damage. Oxidation is what happens when molecules, through the loss of an electron, become unstable.

This unstable state makes them what we call a free radical. And these free radicals bounce around and pretty much wreak havoc inside a pet's body, causing damage to cells and tissues. They've been linked to a variety of health defects, including cardiovascular disease, neurological issues, and even the development of cancer.

On the other hand, an antioxidant is able to donate an electron to a free radical, thereby neutralizing it and making it stable again. So essentially, when copper is used in what Dr. Aldridge described in the copper zinc superoxide dismutase, it can contribute to antioxidant properties, which essentially stave off free radicals and keep everything balanced.

But, as Dr. Aldridge explained, copper that can't find a job to do in the body can get it ornery and act as a pro-oxidant, effectively promoting oxidation and free radicals. All this to say, the body needs just the right balance of copper—enough to help as an antioxidant, but not so much that it turns into a pro-oxidant causing harm. So you can see there's a really delicate balance to be struck here.

Dr. Katy Miller: This has promoted some concerns that it may be the content in commercial dog foods that is contributing to this trend. But we want to keep in mind that there's multiple factors that can influence this increase.

It could just be a perceived increase that is not really there, but we think that we're seeing more of it just because we're better at diagnosing it and we have new, new ways to detect copper in the liver. And so it could be that it's just kind of a perceived thing or it could be real. But we're trying to figure out if this is an overall dietary excess of copper in today's formulations or if this is something that we're getting better at diagnosing it and finding it in dogs.

So, copper-associated hepatopathy, what that is, it's a liver disorder when excessive levels of copper build up in the liver and damage the liver by causing inflammation and potentially causing liver failure. It's a genetic predisposition in certain breeds like Bedlington Terriers, Labrador Retrievers, West Highland Whites, and Doberman Pinschers, where the impaired copper metabolism results in a toxic buildup of copper in the body.

And some of the symptoms that you'll see are associated with the signs of liver failure, which can include vomiting, weight loss, jaundice—they get a yellow look to them. We suspect it with blood tests that we can run, and you can see certain enzymes when the liver gets damaged. It releases enzymes into the blood, and so that may be the first sign is on a routine blood work you get checked on your dog, and they can see this sign of liver damage. But the only way to definitively diagnose it would be to take a biopsy of the liver and, and look for the copper accumulation there.

Jordan Tyler: So, are cases of CAH really on the rise, or are we just getting better at diagnosing it? Just because we have better tools and resources at our disposal to identify and treat diseases doesn’t mean we should assume cases are actually increasing. For this, we really need a proper incidence study, and Dr. Bradley Quest, Principal of Veterinary Services at BSM Partners, is in full support.

Dr. Bradley Quest: To really know definitively if something is becoming a problem, generally speaking, what we really need to do is try to collect, you know, incidence data over time about the condition from veterinarians, veterinary teaching hospitals, and so forth, to actually determine if anything is increasing before, you know, we make a judgment and say, “Well, we think something is increasing.”

In science and research, we love data and really incidence data is just that as well. So I think that's one thing that we have to understand around copper-associated hepatopathy. We know it’s an actual disease. We know that there are breeds that are known to be predisposed. There may be others that are predisposed that we don't know about.

We've got, you know, assumptions around why, if it actually is increasing, why that is, uh, related to, you know, dietary copper levels, different types of diets, different ingredients being used now that maybe weren't used as much, you know, a few decades ago in pet food. But really what we really need is, you know, some hard fast data to kind of let us know, is this actually becoming more of a problem or do we think it's becoming more of a problem just because, you know, we may be in a clinical setting where we're seeing it a lot.

So I think we just got to be careful around what we're basing conclusions and assumptions on.

If you caught our previous episodes about study design and conducting research, you'll know this can be really confusing. It's in the journal, right? So it must be science-backed and peer-reviewed and proven. Well, that's not always the case, and it’s not always obvious to the untrained eye which is which. We saw this with DCM, too, which just reiterates how important it is to be mindful and critical of the difference before we jump to conclusions. We'll link those episodes in the show notes if you'd like to dig deeper there.

Now, there used to be a maximum recommendation for copper, but that was nixed in 2007. Then, in 2016, AAFCO voted to increase the minimum copper recommendation. Fast forward to 2021 and since, there has been a call to adjust these recommendations yet again, so sort of a whiplash over the last couple of decades, but we have Dr. Aldridge here to shed light on some of these changes.

And so, it was removed in 2007. And in 2016, they opted to increase copper to align with the publications for all life stages. And recently there's quite a bit of uproar stating that because of this increase, it's likely that there's a rise in liver diseases that they're seeing right now. And really what, what it boils down to, you know, who's right or wrong here, who really knows without data.

Jordan Tyler: Exactly—we know there isn’t real incidence data for us to be able to judge whether cases of CAH are truly increasing. Additionally, this back-and-forth over the years has been largely fueled by the veterinary community. This is not the first time they’ve advocated for changes to nutritional recommendations, but there wasn’t enough data then, and there still isn’t enough data now.

In a contentious vote of six against and four in favor, the panel determined there was insufficient research to support a maximum or controlled copper recommendation for commercial dog diets at this time. When this vote came out, both the Pet Food Institute and the American Feed Industry Association, which are two organizations that advocate for companies and stakeholders in the pet food industry, expressed their relief, with Pet Food Institute stating it “cannot support the creation of specific nutrient claims for a disease when there isn't evidence-based science.” And AFIA stating that a controlled copper claim based on arbitrary values would be, quote, “ill-advised.”

Now, I mentioned this vote was contentious. According to Board-Certified Veterinary Nutritionist Dr. Renee Streeter, there were two camps in this discussion—one in favor of a controlled copper claim, and the other against. Those in favor argued a controlled copper claim could help pet parents with predisposed pups navigate their options more easily, but those against worried this would open up another can of worms.

Dr. Renee Streeter: They said, perhaps having a definition for a controlled copper claim in AAFCO would be beneficial because then consumers could have an understanding of if AAFCO A food was labeled with control copper that there was a number associated with it, veterinarians may be able to utilize this as well. The idea being, I think my dog is at risk for copper hepatopathy because of the breed it is.

I want to look for a diet that has controlled copper to help prevent that from occurring in the future. So that was discussed and investigated, and the discussion was kind of twofold. There was a number of people who did not feel that having a controlled copper claim definition was appropriate, because once you said that, then copper was going to get hyper focused on.

If you say copper, it's going to be bad when we know that not all copper is bad, that we need copper. Also, we don't have any studies to say that copper content that we chose to be the definition was either going to help prevent those diseases or not. So there was a group of people who said, “No, we don't want this controlled copper claim because of these very valid reasons.”

And then there was another subset that said, “We, veterinarians, have to deal with this copper hepatopathy and we feel bad. We don't want to call every pet food company and ask what copper they're saying is controlled. We just want to know that it has a definition and that's what it is and that will help us make some sort of educated decision.”

Jordan Tyler: Another reason a controlled copper claim could be dangerous, and I know we’ve touched on this, but we just don’t have the research to substantiate the need for such a claim.

And if we come back to the JAVMA Op Ed, the findings are drawn from both healthy dogs and dogs who had known genetic predispositions to developing CAH or had already been diagnosed with the disease. But taking data from sick animals and trying to apply it to the entire population of dogs typically isn’t a great practice.

Another key consideration—or limitation, really—presented in this Op Ed, has to do with the types of copper we’re feeding our pets. The researchers behind this Op Ed suggest not only restricting copper levels in dog food, but also adopting a form of copper—copper oxide—that we know is not very bioavailable for dogs.

Bioavailability sounds complex, but really it boils down to this—just because it’s there doesn’t mean we can use it. Bioavailability refers to our body’s ability to absorb and utilize a specific nutrient, and there are many factors at play that affect bioavailability, including the source of that nutrient.

Remember, copper is an essential trace mineral for supporting overall health, and if we don’t feed enough, it won’t be there to help with all those integral processes Dr. Aldridge was talking about earlier.

To paint a better picture of this source question, we spoke with two experts over at Zinpro Corporation, one of which is Dr. Allison Millican, companion animal nutritionist and global lead of the company's companion animal division.

Dr. Allison Millican: There is a lot of different sources of copper available out there, and we do have what I would almost say like a hierarchy to a degree with some of the different sources, uh, where you are going to have a greater amount of absorption than maybe others, so copper oxide, then copper sulfate. We know from the literature that's been performed in many other species that the sulfate form of copper is going to be more available and a better choice for the animal than the oxide. Because what we don't want to do is offer a source that's not going to benefit the animal at all, and just be sent out through the feces.

Um, and in a lot of cases, if you have a mineral that's more available, you can technically or potentially add less of it to still be able to meet that requirement.

Jordan Tyler: So essentially, if a mineral is highly bioavailable, the animal will be able to utilize it more readily, and therefore you may not need to feed as much. But if it has low bioavailability, you’ll need to feed more to achieve that same level of utilization.

But to throw another wrinkle into this discussion, absorption doesn’t always mean bioavailability, according to Dr. Laura Amundson, who researches basic metabolism for Zinpro.

Dr. Laura Amundson: And so I think it's important to keep that in mind, as well as thinking about, you know, part of the conversation within the dog space has been some of our ingredients are inherently high in copper, but that doesn't mean that they're bioavailable.

And so again, thinking through what a diet looks like from a formulation perspective and what's actually available and able to be utilized by the animal can be very different. And so I think that's another really important, um, perspective to keep in mind when we're thinking about bioavailability, um, of ingredients and supplement sources.

Jordan Tyler: As Dr. Amundson explained, there is a lot at play here. It's not always about the level. There's also the question of source. Therefore, a thorough understanding of various copper sources and how they interact with other nutrients inside a pet's body is really the only way to formulate for an optimal outcome.

Now we also sat down with Dr. Gavin Boerboom, Global Category Director of Trace Minerals for ingredient supplier Trouw Nutrition. According to Dr. Boerboom, most monogastric animals like us and our pets are, by and large, pretty good at moderating copper levels by doing things like increasing or decreasing the amount of copper that we absorb in the gut and retain in the liver.

Fun fact: Monogastric refers to animals who have one stomach, or rather one compartment in their stomach where all the digestion starts, whereas ruminant animals have stomachs with multiple components, allowing them to more easily digest things that are extra high in cellulose, like grass. So, we are monogastric, our pets are monogastric, but cows, deer, sheep, giraffes—those are all ruminants.

Anyway, let’s hear from Dr. Boerboom.

Dr. Gavin Boerboom: The way in which animals control trace minerals is similar across the board for all, almost all metals. Zinc, copper, iron, manganese. The most interesting thing when you look at it is really how tightly it is controlled. So we know these trace minerals are hugely important, but they're called trace for a reason.

Uh, they're there at very low amounts and we want to actually keep them at very low amounts. And when you look at it, relatively speaking, their, uh, safety threshold is relatively slim. If you look at requirements versus where things become toxic, to some extent, um, that bandwidth is relatively small, especially for copper, and very specie dependent.

On the dog side, I would say you, uh, you have huge breed differences. Some breeds deal with copper a lot better than other breeds do. Some breeds have the capacity or a decent capacity to retain these copper ions within the liver without it reaching systemic levels. But you also have breeds that really struggle with it.

Now, if you understand this system, right, and how elaborate it is with regards to the copper levels, then. Yes, you should not be going too high, but realistically speaking across the board, most of the animals have decent capacity to deal with it. It really is this small, I'm not going to give a percentage, but it's going to be a small percentage of the animals that really struggle with it.

So then obviously the question is, do we want to take the risk of, well, let's say 90 to 95 percent of the dogs or companion animal just in general being okay? Do we want to risk that 95% to perhaps make it a little bit better for that 5 percent? Or do we want to change the way in which we view different sources of trace murals that can actually have protective functions rather than.

And that's what a lot of nutritionists do at this point in time—AAFCO was saying this level. So as long as I have this level of trace minerals in my diet, I'm fine because I can check the box and move on to the next ingredient. And I think that's the real question that we should ask ourselves.

Um, because similar to how it's very difficult to estimate which breeds of dogs suffer from this copper toxicity, it also becomes very difficult to then estimate which type of dog would suffer from copper deficiencies.

So I would argue rather than talking about level, it truly is understand how biology works, understand how Mother Nature developed this whole system, and then think, all right, to what extent can I best support this system that is in place?

Because as soon as you start to use that logic, you never end up in a dose discussion. Right? You end up in a source discussion, I would say, because there's relatively higher safety, both from a being too low perspective, as well as from a being too high perspective.

Jordan Tyler: I think that really highlights how this issue is multifactorial, a term we heard a lot in the Great DCM Debate. Essentially what Dr. Boerboom is saying here is you can’t draw a straight line from intake to absorption, and this comes back to the bioavailability piece we were talking about a minute ago. It’s just not that simple—source matters, the biology of a particular animal matters, and genetic predispositions matter, too.

So Dr. Boerboom, do you think AAFCO should really be talking about setting minimums and controlled claims, or should we rather be following guidance based on the precise type or source of copper we’re formulating with?

Dr. Gavin Boerboom: It depends on finding agreement on how we assess trace mineral sources to differ. And what I mean by that is the system is elaborate, meaning that I can generate or influence the system to some extent, to such an extent, I should say that I can show you 200 percent bioavailability for a particular source of trace mineral.

Simultaneously, that same source of trace mineral, I could also design a study to show you that it has 60 percent availability. What I mean by that is the system is so adaptable that at the end of the day, the system is the one that determines whether or not my trace mineral is going to be absorbed. The only thing that we should do by feeding a different source of trace mineral or by defining which source it is that we're going to feed is that we feed a source that supports the system to the best of its capabilities.

If you truly feed a proper source of trace mineral, at that particular point in time, availability should actually be lower. So when we then start to then talk to What should AAFCO recommend, or what should we recommend in terms of what's ideal? My suggestion would be they should recommend feeding the most ideal sources that we have available, which are these, let's say, higher quality trace minerals that are out there in the market.

Jordan Tyler: So to kind of sum up all these points, if we're feeding a form of copper that is not bioavailable, while also controlling the copper levels in dog food, essentially bringing the recommended levels down from where they sit currently, it's not a stretch to say we could be setting up perfectly healthy dogs for deficiencies down the road.

This ultimately led to the paper being retracted from the journal, marking the first-ever retraction in JAVMA's 180-year history as a journal. Remember, this was a peer reviewed article, meaning it had gone through what is typically considered a rigorous process to make sure the study and the data were sound. But, when it came down to it, the study had a fatal flaw, a term that we explain and discuss in previous episodes of Barking Mad. If you'd like to empower yourself when it comes to deciphering good research from bad research, we've linked those episodes in the show notes here, and I encourage you to go check them out.

Coming back to the topic, the question really is, are copper levels simply correlated to this perceived uptick in CAH, meaning there would be other factors to consider, or are they the cause of this perceived increase? There's a key difference, and the difference here is the source of many, many woes in the research space.

So, Dr. Quest, would you mind delineating correlation and causation to help our listeners understand what these concepts mean?

Dr. Bradley Quest: Yeah. I mean, in real simple terms, correlation just really means there's things that are happening at the same time. Either at the same time or subsequential. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are interconnected as far as one causing the other or one affecting outcomes of the other.

And so that, that's something that's really important to differentiate as well. And then, you know, going back. Back to copper a little specifically, we know there are breeds that are genetically predisposed to it. So, so really when you start looking at copper research, one thing that is going to be really important is we need to eliminate any kind of bias or confounding factors, meaning we don't need to necessarily look at breeds that we know are genetically predisposed because we know some of those dogs could potentially get copper-associated hepatopathy, even eating a copper restricted diet.

So, what we need to do is we need to look at that in general populations of dogs, understanding that, who knows, there could be other breeds in that population that we just haven't identified yet. So, we've got to look at it very broadly.

Jordan Tyler: So, coming back to a previous point, making sweeping changes for the entire dog population based on a small percentage of that population is not a best practice. A big part of the issue here is there's just not a lot of copper research being done in the companion animal space, according to Dr. Boerboom, and without a science based minimum or maximum, it's incredibly difficult for us to fully understand how an arbitrary minimum or maximum would play out for dog health in the long term.

Dr. Gavin Boerboom: Predominantly has to do with the fact that we're talking trace minerals, right? A very small part of the entire formulation.

So the amount of work that's being done on, you know, let's say macro ingredients, like proteins, fats, those type of things, obviously done aplenty. When it comes to these more specific ones, there are a few groups within the industry that still do these types of research, Trouw for sure is not the only one.

Is there always interest to do a little bit more? Yes, especially because we obviously are all realizing that this is becoming more and more a hot topic within the industry right now. And I also think that there are some things being said by multiple people within the industry that are simply from a biological perspective, not true.

And in that particular case, whenever these types of statements are being made, and you know they're not in line with biology, doing a trial is one of the best ways to at least make clear to everybody how things are going. So yes, we're running these type of trials as we speak, um, really focusing on, alright, what is it that we see with regards to different sources of trace minerals when we feed them to dogs.

Jordan Tyler: This is not just an issue for copper. There are tons of micronutrients like trace minerals and vitamins out there that could really benefit from expanded research in companion animals specifically, according to Dr. Katy Miller.

Dr. Katy Miller: For example, choline, vitamin D, vitamin K, manganese, selenium. There's a lot, especially your trace minerals, their deficiencies, um, could cause disease and we need to know what those optimum levels should be.

And I think that we have research, maybe, that shows what's is needed to sustain life, but we don't necessarily know what the optimum levels are that would be best for overall general nutrition and health. And so that list is long, and my list is not comprehensive of everything that could be lacking in research.

Jordan Tyler: Zinpro is also conducting research to get at a more comprehensive understanding of how we can optimize copper recommendations for dog food, both for breeds who are genetically predisposed and for the rest of the dog population.

Dr. Allison Millican: At this point, we've done one senior dog study, uh, one cat study, and one adult dog study. Primarily, those have been focused in skin and coat, and then that adult dog study was in mobility.

And really, consistent with what we've been talking about, those studies don't look at copper in a silo. Um, they all look at, uh, the supplementation of multiple of our minerals, uh, at our recommended levels. And then measuring those health outcomes related. Ultimately, right now, you know, we're really trying to get that level of understanding of how our products, um, and that mineral recommendation benefits that pet, whether that be a cat or a dog.

And then hopefully, you know, continuing to contribute to the literature. So we do currently have, um, Um, manuscripts for all of those projects in progress and looking to hopefully submit those fingers crossed by the, by the end of the year. I can't tell you how many conversations in the last six months I've had about copper and how do we address this question in the best way.

And at Zinpro we do want to support the industry in this. As we look at some of our work, it does make sense for us to still look at that collective and how we're benefiting health functions at those levels, but also work with potential other industry partners to help get at the question.

And, you know, part of our greatest challenge here is, how do we measure copper status? How do we correlate that back to, um, the health of the animal and can we use other models and, and things like that? So, we've definitely spent some time exploring that as well.

Dr. Laura Amundson: And while we're not looking at copper specifically alone, we're looking at it in that, that combination with the other trace minerals, um, I, I think it's still beneficial to, you know, we don't have a solid biomarker of copper status, but looking at things that we can look at in dogs that we know are related to copper metabolism, you know, and how.

Our combination of rem, uh, minerals supports or, you know, helps us understand, uh, more intimately the metabolism of copper within dogs. In our over 50 years, you know, we have over 300 peer-reviewed published articles. We're a very scientific-driven organization and want to do the research that's going to best support the animals that we feed in the industry.

Dr. Allison Millican: At the end of the day, if you can’t justify why you're adding something or the level that you're adding something.

I mean, it, it creates more questions than it does answers. And when you're talking about something as vital as trace minerals, they're, they're small, but mighty, right? They pack a really powerful punch and, you know, too much is, is a problem. Too little is a major problem. So you really have to, to work with people that are, you know, invested in doing what's best for the animal. And as an industry, we’ve got to continue to learn what that really is for our pets.

Jordan Tyler: While these efforts are important, more research is definitely needed. In general, the pet food industry isn’t great at conducting and sharing their research. It may be lack of funding, it may be they don’t want to be on the chopping block of a lawsuit, but for whatever reason, we won’t get anywhere without doing our due diligence and investing in the research.

In speaking with the BSM Partners team, a few high-priority research needs came to mind. These include the need to conduct a literature review, which, like the name suggests, is essentially a review of all the scientific papers and literature out there today to identify What gaps exist in current research and help steer us toward more targeted future research to address those gaps.

Like Dr. Quest mentioned earlier, we should also be conducting real incident studies into cases of copper-associated hepatopathy to determine if CAH is really on the rise. Or, if the increase is more of a perception than a stark reality. And lastly, a target animal safety study to perform prospective research on what copper levels are appropriate for healthy dogs who are not predisposed to liver issues, as well as those who are, is sorely needed so that we can ensure we're truly supporting the optimal health of all dogs through these commercial diets.

Dr. Bradley Quest: I mean, really, I think a lot of it just boils down to the industry needs to fund research. There are brands that have deeper pockets that do research and they need to be sharing that freely and fully. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, but overall the industry needs to fund it.

Jordan Tyler: Not only is it important for the industry to conduct research, but also to take responsible science backed steps toward this copper controversy. For example, coming back to DCM—in that case, grain free dog foods were linked to a heart condition on a whim, without proper science to back up the efficacy of grain free diets or the implications made against them.

We've seen this movie before. And again, it's important not to make knee jerk reactions when it comes to the health and safety of our pets. Dr. Aldridge explains just how important it is for us to walk this fine line.

Dr. Blaire Aldridge: You might feel there's a problem, so you do need sometimes someone to raise a flag. However, when you start changing things before you know what you're doing, it's like driving before you know, getting your driver's license. You don't know really where you're going to end up and it might not be somewhere great.

So, I would say that we definitely need to be diligent in not crying wolf, and sometimes that can be hard when we don't have all the funding that we need to establish that. I think if we all work together for the collective good of these pets, our pets, and specific breeds that do have issues. Instead of being too much of adversaries, we will be in much better position to actually help them. And I encourage everybody to appreciate everyone's point of view and take that in mind and do the best we can together.

Jordan Tyler: Really, really great points about how a collaborative, science-driven approach is really the best way to get to the bottom of this issue and so many others facing pet nutrition today. But it's also interesting to think about how this conversation plays into the larger modern pet nutrition and information landscapes, as noted by Dr. Millican.

It's like one thing happens, it causes reactions. And I think the best thing we can do is, is. And just like we're talking about today, continue to do our due diligence. Um, in not, not only the research space, but really coming together as an industry to, to try to educate our pet owners. Not every person has to worry about their dog having copper issues.

And so you don't, you don't want to scare people either, right? Really getting that education out there so that the people that truly need a diet that maybe has restricted copper, they know they need to get it before they end up in a scenario that's unfortunate. But at the same time, that's not every dog, and I think when you end up in these scenarios where maybe inadvertently panic has been created, right?

I think it's like human nature a little bit to be like, “Oh, well, we gotta put a stop to this for everything!” When in reality, you know, the repercussions of that could actually be in my opinion, greater than where we are currently. So, you know, just being able to navigate and work as an industry collectively to communicate.

This is a personal opinion, but like even being able to, to kind of move on from that low copper claim, because that, again, that's a perfect scenario that could mislead a consumer. If that's on every bag, then now copper is evil, right? And we know for a fact that copper is a necessity and you cannot have a healthy animal, even ourselves.

We can't be healthy if we don't aren't getting copper in our diet. It's an essential nutrient. I think it's just a challenge in the industry to make sure we're shaping the narrative around these things in the best way possible that also has the best interest of, you know, the people that are purchasing the products and their pets.

Jordan Tyler: It's clear this conversation will continue as we advocate for additional research on this topic. That said, we hope today's discussion has empowered you to critically assess the science available to you. Look at the JAVMA retraction as an example. This paper should have never been published. But it's not the only one out there that deserves a second look.

There are tons of hypotheses and conclusions out there that can be considered pseudoscience and actually mislead researchers and the conclusions they're coming to. So it's important to keep a keen eye when evaluating whiplash moments like this in any industry, pet food included.

Ultimately, if you have a dog that's genetically predisposed to copper associated hepatopathy, talk to your veterinarian about understanding the risks and implementing a monitoring program, so you know if a particular nutritional intervention would benefit your pup.

And if you’d like to take it a step further, ask your pet food manufacturer what they’re doing to support this kind of research in pet nutrition. And if they aren’t prioritizing research, why not? If companies don’t do the research, how can they know what’s truly best for your pet?

When it comes to copper, jumping to conclusions could actually end up causing more harm than good. At Barking Mad and BSM Partners, we strongly believe feeding our pets based on misguided assumptions that aren’t based in science is irresponsible. And supporting research into this area is the best avenue for understanding the true health implications of copper and dogs.

If you're listening today as an industry professional, become part of the solution and join the industry and its research journey as it seeks to provide clarity on this issue in the best interest of pets, vets, and owners. And if you're listening as a pet owner, stay tuned as we keep a close tab on this conversation. And if you have any questions, our experts are here to help.

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Barking Mad. If you want to learn more about us or BSM Partners, please visit us at www.bsmpartners.net. Don't forget to subscribe on your favorite leading podcast platform and share it with a friend to stay current on the latest pet industry trends and conversations.

A huge thank you to Dr. Millican, Dr. Amundson, and Dr. Boerboom for lending their time and insights to today's conversation. We'd also like to thank our dedicated team: Ada-Miette Thomas, Neeley Bowden, Kait Wright, Cady Wolf, and Dr. Katy Miller. An extra thank you to Lee Ann Hagerty and Michael Johnson in support of this episode. See you next time!