Can you believe it’s the penultimate episode in this series already?

In this episode we tackle the topic of power in leadership and how power dynamics show up. We talk about some of the misconceptions in relation to power, challenge some of the stereotypes of how power can play out for leaders and how we can better understand how we can use our power for good as leaders. We share our own thoughts and experiences about how the concept of power has impacted our own leadership journeys.

• 03:08 – different types of power
• 09:21 – behaviours and signals from others
• 16:18 – can you lead successfully without power?
• 21:32 – feeling powerless   
• 31:18 – abuse of power
• 43:18 - How to… leverage your power

As always, we share our top takeaways to help you leverage your power as a leader. If you are uncomfortable with the concept of power consider reframing this to think about impact and influence. Identify where you do and don’t have the power to help you deliver your purpose. Focus on relationships you are building, grow your awareness and work on your communication and connection skills.

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is this a pipe dream?

Are we on, you know, looking for the unicorn in cloud cuckoo land going,

oh, this is something we can change, or do we need to recognize that you

have to have some kind of gamification, I suppose, if you want to succeed.

Oh God no.

Hello and welcome to another episode of How to Take the Lead.

This is the penultimate episode of the series.

Can you believe, I mean, there will be a sneaky bonus, I'm sure, because that's

just the way, but yeah, episode nine.

Um, Thank you to everyone who's listened and supported the series

so far, we really appreciate it.

Those that have joined us on YouTube, you can watch us on YouTube.

Hello.

Hit the subscribe button if you haven't already.

Um, those that have been part of the substack community, you

can still sign up and join that.

We will be carrying on the conversations beyond this series.

And so if you want some extra bonus stuff in between our season breaks,

then absolutely do get signed up.

And I think Book book Club will launch soon, maybe.

Yes.

Very exciting.

Um, and yeah, we'll still be on the socials.

And that I, I feel like I'm saying farewell.

We have still got this episode and other episodes

Yeah.

What is this vibe?

how are you today, Carrie-Ann?

I'm all right today.

I'm all right.

There is work and life stuff happening that's made me feel stressed this week,

but at the same time made me reflect on what's important and where I can

have impact, and it's made me think.

I need to start taking some of our, how to take the lead

advice, uh, about a few things.

So it's, yeah, it's been an interesting, slightly exhausting week, but I am

looking forward to this conversation.

And um, yeah, it's just made me think a lot of what we've talked about,

particularly in this series of how to take the lead, it's kind of playing itself

out and I feel like I'm ready to deal with it because we've been able to have

our conversations, Lee, so that's good.

Yeah, and I, I feel today's conversation's probably a bit

apt and, um, because we're, we're talking about power and

Hmm.

the concept of leadership is it all about the power.

And so to, I suppose to kick us off.

I was doing a bit of research around the concept of power and realized that

actually there's far more ways that power shows itself than even I realized.

So back in 1959, French and Raven did, did some research and identified

five sources of power, and then that's been built on ever since.

So if I just do a quick rundown of the different types of power that

might be showing up in leadership.

Obviously the, the positional power, so your seniority.

Reward power, so when you give something to someone to get a result.

Expert power, so your knowledge and expertise.

Um, referent power, so how you gain and use influence.

Coercive power, so the opposite of reward, using that threat to get results.

Informational power, which is different to expertise, and you've probably seen

that when, um, you've got people who might have a lot of organizational memory, for

example, and, and really hold onto that.

Connection or networked power, so the, the who, you know, um,

as opposed to the what, you know.

And I'm sure there are many others as well.

So, a that was really interesting in and of itself, that that power does

show up in so many more ways than you perhaps think in, in the first glance.

And we'll certainly get on some of my perceptions or misperceptions around

power as we get into this conversation.

Um, and you do see leaders who do undoubtedly great things with their power.

But you also see others who let it go to the heads and it creates this

negative and destructive culture.

You know, they go on a power trip that is literally, you

know, the, the phrase, isn't it?

Power crazy, power hungry, all of that.

So I want to start today's episode to explore a little bit, Carrie-Ann,

around your awareness of, as you've been in leadership roles, how aware you've

been of the power that you've had.

Wow.

Uh, what a big question to start with.

And it's really funny because I've reflected since we started to talk, um,

and we did the prep for this episode, thinking like, what, where do we want

to get to this conversation about power?

And it's really helped me to reflect on a couple of things, I guess.

So I guess as I've become more senior throughout my career, I've had a

really high awareness of positional power, um, and that kind of hierarchy.

And the fact that I'm in a senior position and I've got the job title and I've got

the accountability and I think probably being aware of, um, You know, how do I,

how do I use that positional power, um, to have an impact and to deliver things?

And how do I want that to play out in my immediate team?

So I think I've always probably described myself within my immediate,

like, communications teams that I've, I've, um, worked with as somebody

who's not particularly hierarchical.

I'm there to be accountable and I'm there to have people's backs

and I'm there to represent us.

But actually I don't really like that very linear, like hierarchical

style of leadership and management.

Um, but I guess I've also been aware that I have stepped into those

more senior positions for a reason.

And, um, need to find a way to kind of use that positional

power to have influence, I guess.

But as we talked and I thought about this episode, there was quite a lot of areas

where I thought there are either things that I'm really good at or things that

I've not been so good at that haven't really aligned or thought about from

the point of view of a power dynamic.

So there are a couple of areas that you've talked about in those descriptions of

power where I think, yeah, I feel like actually I have some real strengths there,

but I've never really considered those strengths aligned to the idea of power.

So I think in terms of connection, that's something that I'm actually really good

at and that I spend a lot of time building and developing my own network, but that

I also, uh, would like to think that colleagues and others would say about me

that I'm quite good at connecting other people up and helping them to think about

their network and how they can have, for me it's always been about like how can

they have greater influence and impact through building those connections.

Like if I put those two people together to have a conversation, like what's the

positive that's gonna come out of that?

And I guess now we've been talking, I see that that is about power, isn't it?

Like what's the power, um, in bringing those people together,

hopefully in a positive way.

And I guess the other bit is around that kind of influence piece and feedback,

like I feel like some of my natural skills and preferences are about,

um, trying to influence, facilitate, mediate, build relationships, uh,

surface things in discussions in a way that helps people feel like they

can have those conversations and start to think about that influence.

So there was definitely things for me that I'm like, oh, I hadn't considered

that from the point of view of power.

But there are areas that you've mentioned that feel like they fit

with kind of my style of leadership.

But there are also times when I reflected on the fact that there are

things I haven't stepped into enough.

So you talked about expert power, for example, and I, I feel like I hear this a

lot about my profession actually through the mentoring that I do and through

my own kind of professional background and working with communicators that

often there's this sense that, um, we are not stepping into our expertise

enough or our expertise is not valued.

And actually, What I hadn't thought about was how that diminishes the sort

of power balance in relationships by not owning it and stepping into that

expert space and, you know, being able to say, no, my expert professional opinion

is this, because I've got years of experience and knowledge and, and skills.

So it brought up loads for me actually, that I could probably

waffle on about for ages.

But I, I found it really interesting to reflect on those different types of

power, um, and kind of how that's played out for me in my leadership career.

So I'm keen to know more from you as well.

Yeah.

Well, before, before we move on to me, um, I, I

It's not all about you, but.

I I, definitely won't be as eloquent as you or, or considered as you, but I'm,

I'm interested in, I suppose maybe the signs, um, that maybe have highlighted

to you the extent of your power.

So you've picked up of the things that you've reflected on

and the actions that you take.

But are there things that on reflection that, that the behaviors

or, um, signals from other people that's, that's indicated you have

a power that you weren't aware of?

Um, do you know, it is probably been more recent, but actually

having some really frank, straightforward feedback about some of those things have

really highlighted it and having people say, Did you know that you do this,

and I really admire the way that you do that cause I've never felt able to,

and, and it has this impact in a space.

So actually I've been lucky enough that a few people have bothered to

give me that, that feedback, and that has been positive stuff that I'm

talking about and kind of gone, oh, I've noticed that when you operate in

board discussions, for example, that you are really skillful at doing this.

And did you realize, because the impact it has is it, it brings people back

to the pertinent point that we need to take some action on, for example.

And I guess that's helped me to reflect on whether I've honed that skill, whether

it's nature versus nurture or whatever.

And it's been helpful to have people reflect that back because it does kind

of highlight to you, I, I am having a level of influence or I'm exerting a

level of power, um, to kind of, of get to a decision or take an action perhaps

I wasn't quite so aware of myself.

I think there probably have been times in my career where I reflect on the

positional power piece actually, where maybe my desire to not be so hierarchical

and not exert those positions of power have almost led to a bit of inertia or

a bit of like non-action because, um, I think my style has been about empowering

people and giving people autonomy and, um, wanting people to aspire to certain things

or operate in a certain way, but almost come to that conclusion for themselves.

And actually what I've had to learn through my career is that there are just

some people I would say that actually respond better to being told what to

do than being given that free reign.

And because that hasn't been my natural style of leadership to exert that

positional power and be like, no, I'm, I'm the boss, I'm gonna never

say it like this, but I'm the boss and this is what needs to happen,

and I need you to do X, Y, and Z.

Because often I haven't always felt comfortable in that

space and operating that way.

I'd probably done a bit of a disservice to those people who need that level

of kind of direction and that level of being told, these are exactly

the things I need you to deliver.

And some people do operate better in that space, I think.

And I think Covid was a really good example of that when everyone was working

towards a common goal and there was a command and control structure as much

as that was a challenge for some of us in my sector to operate in that way.

Other people really shone 'cos it was just really clear like, these

are the actions I need to take, this is the end result I need to get to.

You know, that really directive way of working, which I think sometimes has

challenged my natural style of leadership and I probably have, yeah, not not been

as aware until it's too late that I maybe haven't helped people to deliver

what they could deliver through not being so directive, if that makes sense.

I feel like I've waffled a bit there.

No, no, it's, it's, it's an interesting one.

And hi hierarchical positional powers, I think been the one a I've probably been

most aware of, but, but also I've been the most uncomfortable with, and it's a, it's

been a really interesting reflection point for me because I've always been Ambitious.

I've always wanted to be at the top of my game and achieve the ultimate kind

of position that I can within my area, within my, um, kind of profession.

And did that.

So there was obviously something within me that wanted positional power,

although I didn't couch it like that.

I wanted to be the ultimate expert.

Um, But I hated using my title.

Um, I didn't really like reflecting other people's, um, authority either.

I've very, I, I would purposely not use people's titles if they said, oh, I'm,

you know, doctor this Mr that whatever, working in, in a health setting.

I refused to, I would just call them Bob, Dave, Jill, whatever.

Well, obviously if that was their name, I didn't just

I just randomly calling people, Bob.

but I had this thing around you're no better than me.

You've done a different education, you've got a different role, but

I'm not going to put you up on a pedestal by using this name.

And I hated that power play that that would go on in clinical situations.

But my reflection now is maybe I was actively trying to undermine their

power and, um, maybe that was being disrespectful in and of itself.

So that's, that's been an interesting one.

And then my other thing around, I was undermining my, undermining

myself because I used to do the, well, there's no point me saying what

my job title is cuz no one's gonna really understand what that job does.

And I, and to some extent I still agree with that, and I say that when

I work with a lot of leaders who focus so much on their job title or say,

well, what does it mean to anyone?

What does that, you know, we all have these grand titles that it

doesn't actually say what, what you do and doesn't mean anything.

If you, if you're having to go into a whole explanation around what your

job is to your nan or to someone down the pub, you might as well

just lead with that to begin with.

Like, let's get rid of the title.

But yeah, so, so that's been an interesting reflection around

the undermining part of it.

Yeah.

And it is funny, isn't it?

Cause it's I guess there's that level of comfort isn't it.

Cause as you were saying, I was like, oh yeah, I can definitely remember times,

even like recently where I cringe at having to say that I'm a director and

then there's a bit of me, then there's a bit of me that's cross at myself,

cause I'm like, but I've worked really hard to get to this point in my career,

so why am I why am I cringing about it?

And actually I'm wanting to role model to other communicators that they

can step into that leadership space.

So if I'm not comfortable to own it for myself, like what does that say?

But it, uh, yeah, I think it comes with a lot of complexities, doesn't it?

About the cultures we've worked within, the teams we've worked with in our

own experiences about how comfortable we are then stepping into that space

and that conversation about power.

And I just, I don't know if it's the word power that makes it feel cringey.

Cuz when I thought influence and expertise and connection I felt

really comfortable with those concepts that are still about power.

But then when it was power, I was, oh no, it feels a bit icky.

Yeah.

So do you think you can successfully lead if you don't have power?

Obviously if you're in a senior management position, you have positional

power, which we've, we've already referenced, but can you perhaps be a

positive and transformational leader with just your position, or do you

need a blend of those other powers to be in play in order to truly succeed?

I thought about this and I, and I absolutely am of the opinion

that you need that blend, I think.

Because, we can probably all either name people we've seen in like high profile

public positions or we can, uh, think about our own experiences of leaders that

we've worked with where just because they have a senior position, just because they

are a senior leader in an organization, it hasn't meant that they have actually had

any sort of positive impact as a leader.

Um, so I don't think that just through having the title and having that

hierarchy and that positional power, you c you can be an effective and

impactful leader because I think so much of what we've talked about through

how to take the lead and in other conversations has been about your ability

to influence, your ability to connect with people and build trust, for example.

So I bet we've all got examples of people who have the positional power, and you

talked about being power crazy and going on a power trip, and who've maybe used

that power to bully or be, you mentioned coercion didn't you, like coerce people

into things because they're the boss?

So you must do this because I've told you to because I'm the boss.

And actually when that goes unquestioned, I, I, I think that person might think

that they are exerting their power and that they're having an impact, but

fundamentally, I think what it does is break trust and alienate people,

and people get into a mindset where they're either like, I'm just gonna

do it, but I'm not, I don't actually really care that much about it, but I

just need to get the boss off my back, or I need to do, you know what I mean?

So I, I feel just using positional power can create really negative

impacts and scenarios and a, and a really challenging culture.

So I think to be impactful and have that positive impact, you need to have a blend

of all of those other things, and I think you can have a blend of all of those

other things and be perceived as, and have impact as a leader without always having

the position of power in the hierarchy.

So, yeah, sorry, I'm kind of going all over the place with my

ramblings, but my answer was I think you need the blend of everything

and it isn't just about positional power to, to be able to lead well.

almost, if you were to remove any kind of power, the positional one could

be the one most easily re removed.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I suppose the skill of a leader is recognizing the powers that they have more

broadly than just that hi hierarchical one, and then how they use them.

So if you look at the, some of those powers I talked about in the

very beginning, the most effective ones probably are, as you've said,

like influence your knowledge, your expertise, how networked you are.

Whereas the least effective one from a leadership perspective are things

coercive power because that's that fear.

Fear leading by fear.

Um, leading through punishment probably isn't gonna get results.

It might get a short term fix.

And we see that with some, with some leaders where they come in, they

might do a turnaround, and they, they put the fear of God in everyone.

Um, and something might happen, but that's not a sustainable way to lead.

And then you see all the other metrics start to fall as the culture erodes,

as trust erodes and all of that.

And then you see morale falls, performance falls, and we've talked about that in the,

the communications episode and previously.

So the, the metrics that can fly if you use the wrong kind of

power in the wrong, wrong setting.

So I suppose there's a leader you need to have, and we talk about this word

a lot, that clarity in what you are trying to achieve, who your stakeholders

are, what your core values are, and tho and your beliefs around that as well.

And then use the values, um, the powers rather, that feel

most aligned to achieve that.

That's kind of, would be my sense.

What if you feel powerless.

You know, there are situations where you feel something's out

of your control and it maybe it's undermining your ability to lead.

How, how do you tackle that?

Oh, I think that's a really challenging one, isn't it?

Because, uh, so much of it is dependent on, I guess, uh, the culture

in your organization where you.

I dunno, there's, there's something for me that, oh God, there's so much in this.

There's something for me that is partly about, um, is it

just you that feels powerless?

So actually dependent on what that situation is that's making you feel

like you don't have any power, can you recognize that that is individual

to you and therefore something that you might need to identify?

Like, how can you regain that power?

Is that possible?

Does it need to be possible?

Is there a different way that you can reframe what that situation is

to your benefit, um, and to help you achieve your specific purpose?

Um, and we've talked lots in other episodes, haven't me, about like alignment

and actually is it a sign that things are not aligned and maybe this is not

the right environment for you to thrive as a leader or, or have that positive

impact that you want to, but also if trying to evaluate whether or not

actually there's more of you that feel powerless and what's that all about?

And actually, if collectively there was an opportunity for you to come

together and maybe use your collective voice to perhaps challenge something

that's happening in your organization or a leader who is leading by fear or

coerciveness or, or whatever it might be, that is there a strength in numbers?

And actually is there an opportunity in that space for you to think about how

that style or approach of one leader is impacting on a group of you and move

it away maybe a bit from that emotional element of how that's making people

feel, but to focus it on the performance.

So it is almost like if organizationally we're striving to achieve x.

The way in which this leader is impacting on a group of us means that we're,

that we're never gonna achieve that.

So how can we have a conversation about what might need to change

from a leadership point of view to enable us to deliver what

the organization needs from us?

But I mean, all of that sounds like I'm being really flippant

cuz none of that is easy to do.

But I think it's about having awareness and that ability to be able to identify

what those issues are and where there may be opportunities to take action, either

individually or, or as a collective, to try and address some of those problems.

Yeah, I think that's, that's really helpful and it, it almost builds on

some of the points that we talked about in the difficult conversations episode

around how you perhaps take some of that emotion you might be feeling out of

the situation to be able to tackle it.

And also sometimes it is about bringing awareness to an individual when they

might not be aware that they're making you feel powerless and, and just identifying

through evidence-based, not that emotion, um, of, of how you feel disempowered

to, to be able to do your role could actually be a really positive step.

Obviously, if it is something that is more toxic and more challenging than that, then

then it might be no use in you trying to tackle it with that individual head on.

So then there are, well, what are your other recourse, um, of actions?

Is it something you, as you said collectively you do as a group?

Is it, often in organizations there are individuals you can go and raise concerns

with, if you think that there is an actual harm being done by this person that's,

that's taking power away from others.

Um, there are external ways and means that you can bring

light to a situation as well.

But, um, I think that's where your support network comes in really, what's

the word I'm looking for, really?

Helpfully.

Handily,

It's really important.

That's where your support network's really important.

That's the word.

So in my exploration of power and leadership, and as I've already alluded

to, I I definitely have come to it, I suppose, in quite a negative space.

Um, and we will cover this because it is important, but I'll,

I'll get to that in a minute.

Um, we've talked about it being a dirty word and feeling a bit bit icky

and we've conversely recognize that power exists in all sorts of ways.

Um, obviously it's influenced by the privilege that you have,

by the voice that you have.

Um, so even those people who say they don't care for or want power, or those

who perhaps advocate on behalf of others who have less power, there's

a reality isn't there, about there is still power in play in, in ev in all of

those situations regardless of how you are trying to position your own power.

So if you are someone that is uncomfortable with the concept of power

and the power that you have, how do you start to get comfortable, um, with

the power that you have as leader And I suppose harness that to use it for good.

I think for me it's about purpose and impact.

So if you are uncomfortable with the I, I think we need to get to

a space where, um, We, we have to accept that power is a, is a thing.

It's a concept, it's an actual thing that is, is happening all around us.

So we either have power or we don't in different circumstances.

And I guess it's about acknowledging and accepting that.

But if you are uncomfortable as a leader with the notion of power or

the term power because it feels like that dirty word that's like got that

negative kind of connotation about it, I think it's about reframing that.

So actually what you are considering is what is your purpose as a leader?

And we talked, you mentioned clarity, getting that clarity on that, and what

impact is it that you want to have and that you feel you can have because of

the position that you find yourself in.

So for me, I guess I feel quite uncomfortable with the terminology

around power because that doesn't feel like it fits with my values

and the language that I like to use.

So I guess for me, I think about as a leader, what's the influence and impact

that I can have and where, where am I in a privileged position where I can actually,

I already have a seat at the table as part of those conversations, for example.

Or I am in a position where my role enables me to be somewhere that means I

can challenge bad behaviors or people's assumptions about, um, the way certain

things might land in an organization or the impact it might have on other people.

Um, and where do I need to identify and recognize where I could

advocate for other people if that's what they would like me to do.

So I think there is something about getting that balance, cuz sometimes I

think you can assume you should be the voice for the people who don't have as

much power or influence or impact as you.

And actually, that's not always the right thing to do.

But actually then it's about, okay, how do I create the space

for those people to have their own voice and influence and impact?

So I, I think it's about recognizing that that power is there, that you

might feel uncomfortable with it because we've always probably looked at power

from that point of view of it being more challenging and more negative.

Cause we talked about being power, mad power, crazy.

But I, we wouldn't say things with those negative con connotations about wanting

to be impactful as a leader, would we, we'd see that as a positive thing.

So I think for me it's almost about that reframe.

Yeah.

Reframing that notion of power in your head about what does that mean for you as

a leader in delivering your purpose and engaging with other people to help deliver

that bigger purpose for your organization?

Yeah, and you, and you're completely right reframe is the,

is the word that came to my mind because power doesn't mean control.

And often that's what we, we

Hmm.

kind of join them two together.

Um, but it.

Does mean impact.

So yeah, that, that reframes important.

And we talked in episode five around using your voice for good.

That is you using your power, albeit not in a, oh, look at me kind of way.

Here's my shoulder pads, let's go on with it.

So, I dunno why I had to do, do,

it.

do the action whilst I was talking.

That's for the YouTube viewers.

and there's something we've talked about this often around if you overuse

your strengths, it becomes a weakness.

And it's the same thing around bringing awareness to your power.

If you overuse your power, it can become, um, a force not for good.

I'm not sure that's the sentence I want to say, but I can't think of a better one.

know.

We know what you meant.

We know what you meant.

So it's all about your self-awareness, isn't it?

And, and reframing in a way that, that feels comfortable, but I don't want

people to feel too comfortable because there's got to be a bit of grit and

challenge there as well for you to truly step into the space and, and own it.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

I love that.

Grit and challenge.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I like.

So I've referenced a couple of times now, my negative view of the

word power, um, and I would say that's been true until even quite recently.

And I suppose that's because I see time and time again the

destruction that power can cause.

So I do want to briefly tackle, um, Those who do abuse the power

that they have, and I've seen it in organizations I've worked for.

I've seen it in wider sectors that I've been in.

We obviously see it in the news, in the media and played out in,

in social media for example.

You know, leaders who use their position of power to silence other people.

Leaders who bully and intimidate people beneath them to achieve an outcome.

Uh, leaders who favor and reward those who do and say the right things.

Um, and I know as you do that, it happens a lot more than it is ever

called out for, and I can only assume it's not called out as much as it

should be because of the power dynamics.

And we've spoken before about that knock on effect that, that it has on people.

And there's the negative influence, isn't there?

People feeling like they've got to behave in the same way to succeed.

I've seen people moan about, you know, this person or that person and then

they've gone and blown to smoke up their ass when they're around them

to get promotion or to get what they want from their portfolio or, you

know, to get favored in some way.

And the cycle continues forever.

Um, and I suppose that, we talk about grit and challenge.

That's, that's there in me that fire is there because we talk about this being

the year of change, certainly from our perspective, we've, we've labeled it that.

But is it, you know, is this a pipe dream?

Are we on, you know, looking for the unicorn in cloud cuckoo land going,

oh, this is something we can change, or do we need to recognize that you

have to have some kind of gamification, I suppose, if you want to succeed.

Oh God no.

Like so, oh, there's so much of me that wants to be really hopeful and say,

yes, it's all out there for the taking.

We can change this, we can absolutely, you know, really challenge those negative

power dynamics that come into play.

Um, so I, I want to say yes, and I want to be part of that change

a hundred percent for sure.

But I think it's so nuanced, isn't it?

Because.

For some individuals, it will depend what success looks like for them.

So if success for an individual looks like getting to the highest possible

positional power that they can with the best paycheck and you know, whatever,

whatever it is that's driving that person, then actually there probably is an element

of gamification in it because you are probably gonna find yourselves if you

are that person doing exactly what you said, which is, even if some of it feels

uncomfortable for you and you don't like the way the power dynamics are playing

out, you still play into them because individually for you, it's gonna get you

to where you want to be in your career.

For other people, there might be more at play there because it might be more

about their professional and personal integrity, their morals, their values,

which means they're not gonna get into that kind of, I'm just gonna play the

game to get the big job, because actually that's not what is their individual driver

and not what feels important to them.

And I think so much of this challenge.

Is about individuals rather than about a co a collective, if I'm honest.

Cuz it's about people either feeling like I wanna speak out because I don't feel

like what's going on here is, is right.

Or it's about people going, I won't speak out cuz I just wanna pay the mortgage.

So I'll be, I'll be complicit through not doing anything.

Or it'll be the opposite, which is I'm gonna play into all of those negative

stereotypes and play this power game and be part of that power, crazy power trip.

I want my next promotion.

So it's, it's really challenging to kind of work out how we

make that culture shift.

And I think the thing that I have found more and more upsetting, I guess as I've

moved through, um, my career and, and been in that leadership space is actually

when I see people challenge and call out the poor use of power, more often than

not, and I mean very much more often than not, what happens is, The person who's

prepared to make that challenge and say, this doesn't feel right, this doesn't

sit comfortably with me, we are not doing the right thing here often ends up being

the person that leaves that organization either because they are pushed out,

because their face doesn't fit and they haven't said the right, the right thing.

I use the, they haven't said the right thing or because they realize that the,

the culture in that organization and the toxicity that's playing through, just

isn't healthy or right for them, and that they're never gonna feel like they can

influence and have impact in that space.

And I feel like that's where I feel slightly worried and depressed about

how we create this movement of change.

Because the people who are in organizations sometimes who really

wanna make that change happen for various different reasons, don't

stay there to help make it happen.

Yeah, the, you've see, you've see this, there are really good

people stepping away from, um, positions of power and influence

because it's not, it's not worth it.

And it's almost like, are there more of the wrong ones, as it were, that are,

are a rising to the top, you know, is.

Proportionately have we got it so out of sync that it's, you know,

we talk about that Malcolm Gladwell book with, um, the tipping point.

Is the tipping point such that there are so few of those that are willing

to do the fight and to, to use their power to, to make this change happen.

Um, are they just getting shouted out or overshadowed or, or undermined and

all of those things, or just personally don't have the energy to kind of continue

fighting, which is not a bad thing.

Yeah, it's, it's a hard, it's, it is a hard one to know if it will change, and

I, that feels a bit depressing to me.

I know, I feel sad.

I feel like I might cry a little bit.

And then there's a bit of me that goes, how do we harness all of those

amazing leaders who've been in that position where they're like, no, my

integrity's telling me this is wrong.

I've spoken out and now I can't stay either because my position's

too untenable, I'm being pushed out, or quite frankly, I can't

cope with this toxic nature.

How do we get all of those people in one space and start creating

some new organizations and some new leadership approaches that

harnesses all of that good.

Because I do think it's there and I, and I think probably some, even my

own self, and I think I've mentioned this in examples before, um, on the

podcast, I've even found myself in some situations earlier on in my leadership

journey, rather than speaking out, just not saying anything because that

feels easier and that makes it, not that it puts me in a more comfortable

position, but it's just like head down.

I don't wanna get involved in the politics of these power

dynamics that are playing out.

But on reflection, I look back at that and think, well, that makes me complicit

because I haven't challenged it.

And I imagine there's probably quite a, a swell of people who are in that

position where they're not blowing smoke up people's asses and just trying

to get the next promotion by going along with the bad behaviors and bad

power dynamic, but they're equally not challenging it, they're just sitting

somewhere quietly in the middle.

And I just wonder how many people are finding themselves in, in that space

It's, it's, It's, the other thing that I'm, that I'm struggling with

is this sense of, there is almost this, there's more um, discussion

and debate and awareness around good leadership qualities and what you

need and, and values led leadership and all the stuff that we talk about.

We're not necessarily the first to raise some of these things as, as being good

for leadership, so they've, they can almost become buzzwords that people use.

And in the last fortnight, there's been another list of top chief executives

that have been published for a sector.

And you know, some of the criteria when I was looking at it was,

oh, they're demonstrating values led leadership, blah, blah, blah.

Now I've looked down that list, and I'm not saying this categorically

for everyone on their list.

I'm sure there's some really great leaders that have been, um, nominated,

but there are leaders there who, to the external world have been chosen because

they are seen to be good, great leaders.

Yet I know internally that they're not, that there's stuff going on,

that they're playing all the power play dynamics, blah, blah, blah.

I know people who, um, were part of the decision making panels to, to

decide The ratings also don't live by the values of which they were judging.

Um, and so it's just perpetuating this, this kind of, everyone's playing the game.

Oh my God, I feel so depressed.

Sorry, this, this is not, I feel like we've gotta kind of get to it.

But it's that calling it out, isn't it?

How do you call that out?

How do you ch how do you change the rules of the game?

That's what we're talking about here, isn't it?

How do you change the rule of rules of the game so it doesn't become about

rewarding the bad behaviors and playing into all of those negative power dynamics.

But it comes a, it becomes about more of the positives that we've talked

around about stepping into some of those other types of power for the

greater good and to have a positive impact and influence for other people.

It's hard.

It's really hard.

But that goes back to som of the conversations.

It is, it goes back to some of the earlier conversations that we had, um, probably at

the very beginning of starting the podcast when we were talking about what, what

do organizations need to do differently?

Looking at their recruitment processes, how are they really test testing the um,

The values and the behaviors and, and looking at skills more than just their

expertise and, and their knowledge, but actually the broader skills

that a, a good leader needs to have.

It's about how organizations are supporting leaders and the right kind

of leaders and not doing the usual tick box exercises when it comes to things

like diversity and inclusion and training programs and, and, and, uh, all of

those types of things that, that needs to happen, but it just feels so slow.

It does feel slow, doesn't it?

But then I guess we are talking about a cultural shift in leadership, aren't we?

So not even in one organization, but in leadership as a as this great collective

up here and we know it takes time.

So I dunno, what was the research say if it's the latest research, but

it takes like seven years to change the culture in one organization.

So actually we have to start somewhere.

We have to hold onto the positives that are happening.

We have to try and find ways to harness and nurture and support those leaders

who demonstrate the values that we think are really important and, and

just, I guess keep trying to plug away at that because if we give up, then

we're complicit again in this, this horrible dynamic of poor leadership

that's all about the wrong sort of power.

So to, to, I feel, I feel like we've not resolved this one and we are going to

gonna come back to this, aren't we?

revisit and we would absolutely love people who are listening to this

to share their views and thoughts and, and ideas for what can be the difference

this, this time round, I suppose.

But to wrap up in our how to, how, how do you really start to leverage your power?

What should leaders and I suppose organizations be learning through

maybe the discussion that we've had to support the right kind

of powers to be put into play?

So I feel like firstly for me, it's about doing that reframe.

So if you are not comfortable with the concept of power, uh, finding a way

to get comfortable with it, because whether you like it or not, as we've

said there, you are gonna have various different levels and elements of power.

Whatever they might look like.

So if you need to reframe that and think about it in a different way,

so whether that's about impact, influence, whatever, um, maybe

start to do some of that thinking.

And then I think for leaders it's about understanding where you actually

do have the most power right now.

Um, how that's playing out, how you are evidencing that, like what impact

that's having on others, um, and starting to understand that impact.

So actually if you harness all of that for good, um, what would that look like?

But also identify and maybe, where you don't have as much power as perhaps you

might need to deliver on your purpose and to have that positive impact.

Um, because if you can identify some of that space.

So maybe I've said sometimes I've not stepped into my, uh, expert power.

I've not, I've not done that.

So actually if I've identified that, what action can I take to do more of that?

To help me to achieve my purpose and goals?

So I think it's about that identification and understanding of where you

are at in some of those power.

Power, what are we calling them?

Like categories, I guess.

And kind of where you can do more of the good stuff that's having a positive

impact and where you can see that there are gaps that you might need to build on.

Probably feels like some good first steps for me.

Yeah.

I love, I love that.

And for, for me, in terms of the learning that leaders I suppose can

take from, from this conversation.

Um, it isn't so much about deciding what power you fit into, but maybe

it's about focusing more on the types of relationships that you're

building, being aware of your kind of personal agenda so that you are not

abusing the power that you've got.

Things like working on those broader skills like your communications and

your connection, which again is, these are all power-based things, but it's

about that reframe of how you use it.

And then looking at you how you use your power, whatever that

might be, for good in some way.

And we've talked about it in other episodes, but there's that concept

of how, how are you lifting as you, you rise as a leader, which I love.

Um, and I think that's something that we can all do regardless of

where we are in, in an organization.

That feels like a more positive way to end the

episode Lee Lifting as we rise.

I don't think there's anybody really who wouldn't wanna get behind that is there.

Maybe there is, maybe some of those power hungry leaders won't, but I feel

like that's what we are all about.

So that's a, that's a more positive end.

But as you say, I don't think we've reached a resolution or a solution,

and I'm sure it will be a topic we come back to in many different

shapes and forms as we continue on how to take the lead discussions.

Yeah.

So that's it.

That's the end of the episode.

Um, if you like this, please leave a rating or, or a review.

I still can't say it.

It's been three series.

Get involved in the conversations over on substack.

Like, follow, share, all of that stuff would be brilliant.

And, um, yeah, come and dm us with your stories of power being

used for, for good and bad.

We would love to know, don't feel like you've got to share it to the world

if you're not comfortable yet, but, um, if we can help be a mouthpiece

for you, we will happily do so.