Shownotes
On the latest episode of the Common Sense Ohio podcast, we hear stories of service and sacrifice from Lima Company and connect with amazing individuals like Kelly Jones-Swenson from The Eyes Of Freedom and Stephen Walter, former Marine, and Columbus police officer. It was an absolute honor to be a part of this discussion on bravery, dedication, and the importance of remembering our veterans. 🇺🇸
Here are the 2 key takeaways from our conversation:
1️⃣ Memorializing the Fallen: The powerful story of Anita Miller and her eight-foot oil paintings honoring fallen soldiers from Lima Company. The Lima Company Memorial exhibit travels across the country, thanks to the support of R+L Carriers, and allows thousands of people to pay their respects. It's a reminder of the importance of remembering and honoring those who made the ultimate sacrifice.
2️⃣ The Challenges of Military Service: From inadequate protection in amp tracks during Operation Iraqi Freedom to the mental health struggles faced by veterans such as PTSD, our conversation highlights the challenges our servicemen and women face both during and after their deployments. It's crucial that we provide the support and resources needed to help them transition back into civilian life.
Gain a deeper understanding of the sacrifices made by our veterans and the need for continued support. Let's remember and honor their service while working towards a better future for our heroes. 🙌
Brought to you by Harper Plus Accounting.
Also mentioned in the podcast...
The Ohio Veterans and Fraternal Charitable Coalition (the OVFCC) is the voice of 2.6 million members and their families who are active in more than 1,700 posts and clubs throughout the State of Ohio. The OVFCC advocates for policy, legislation, rules, and regulations that impact the daily lives of veterans and fraternal organizations, and the charities that they support, in the state of Ohio!
Stephen Palmer is the Managing Partner for the law firm, Palmer Legal Defense. He has specialized almost exclusively in criminal defense for over 26 years. Steve is also a partner in Criminal Defense Consultants, a firm focused wholly on helping criminal defense attorneys design winning strategies for their clients.
Norm Murdock is an automobile racing driver and owner of a high-performance and restoration car parts company. He earned undergraduate degrees in literature and journalism and graduated with a Juris Doctor from the University of Cincinnati College of Law in 1985. He worked in the IT industry for two years before launching a career in government relations in Columbus, Ohio. Norm has assisted clients in the Transportation, Education, Healthcare, and Public Infrastructure sectors.
Brett Johnson is an award-winning podcast consultant and small business owner for nearly 10 years, leaving a long career in radio. He is passionate about helping small businesses tell their story through podcasts, and he believes podcasting is a great opportunity for different voices to speak and be heard.
Transcripts
making me move right now.
Norm Murdock [: And, it joined the marines in: Brett Johnson [:Mhmm.
Norm Murdock [:People need to remember this. They need to be reminded I need I need that. I'm not saying that as a criticism. We need to hold these people in our hearts. We need to we need to memorialize them, and we need to learn lessons from it, you know, hard lessons. Right. So True. True. That was my impetus. And, I'm so glad I did because I've met 2 wonderful new friends as a result.
Brett Johnson [:Excellent.
Norm Murdock [:If nothing else, that's a victory right
Brett Johnson [:now. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it's excellent. Excellent. Yeah. Let's dive into once you go ahead and introduce them and and, you know, and then --
Norm Murdock [:So Kelly Jones. -- together. Kelly Jones Swenson is, I believe, executive director now of the Eyes of Freedom Memorial organization which you can find on the internet. There's a lot of, videos and testimonials, and you can read a lot on the website. And they tour. Maybe I'm gonna have Kelly talk about it, but but she's the executive director of if you will, Lima Company Memorial organization. And, she's a United States army veteran herself of 10 years at retired as a sergeant. And, and then Steven, has the most remarkable career of I I just can't imagine being in the cauldron of being a police officer for all those years and then also being a United States Marine master sergeant and, yeah, I mean, the 2 2 of the toughest things you could do in life in one human being. And now he he does volunteer teaching his reteaching. So Steven's quite the man, and, I hear within the Columbus police department ranks. They still think he's the greatest of all time. So, you know, he's he's over here not blushing, you
Brett Johnson [:know, and
Norm Murdock [:that's he's pretty tough. He's he's probably heard a few bad things about him too. Which, I don't know what those could possibly be, but, you know, so Kelly, I think without further ado, how about how about you, lead us into your organization and, speak about the events of Lima Company and And, and then we'll go to Steven.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [: That happened between May of: Norm Murdock [:the 22 Marines
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:and 1 navy corpsman. From Lima Company. And Master Sergeant Walters will kinda speak more to the actual events that happened during that time. But we had an artist in our community. Her name is in Anita Miller. She's absolutely incredible lady. And, she had a had a vision. And it began with the Columbus Dispatch on the front page the very next morning. There were those 11 fallen all across the front page of the Columbus dispatch, and she just thought, you know, I gotta do something I gotta do something for the community, for the gold star families, and she had a vision, to create a memorial, some paintings that could be displayed in the, retunda of the state house where the communities and the gold star families can come and and provide support and grief and and get through this horrible tragedy. So, it took her two and a half years. To create eight foot paintings, oil paintings, and That's exactly what she did. And we actually have a a gentleman on our team who documented that whole two and a half years of those paintings and working with the gold star families. And Master Sergeant Walters was was, Walter was instrumental on that and helping Anita work with the gold star families. So getting pictures, learning more about them. So those paintings, two and a half years into it, they debuted at the state house and thousands of thousands of people came through to see that exhibit. And once it was over, they were packing up. They thought, you know, This is bigger than Columbus, Ohio. Then they went on the road. And by the grace of god, we got R & L Carriers out of Wilmington, Ohio came to the table and said, hey. Let us be your transportation provider.
Brett Johnson [:Wow. Wow.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:They have been absolutely we we couldn't do it without them. They just, they made it happen for us
Norm Murdock [:That's incredible.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:And so it's been on the road ever since?
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Because that's expensive.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
Norm Murdock [:That's a that's a huge cost.
Brett Johnson [:So is it a combination of you setting up locations and people calling you saying we want you here? Or or or it's probably more we want you here.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [: came into, the exhibit around: Norm Murdock [:Was Anita the Yes.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:And actually Anita was the sculpture and that, and it's is another story in itself that has been, really changed our mission a little bit. Or it's actually it's complimented the mission, honestly. But they put in a gold star at the in their gold star park in Marietta, Ohio they put in a life size silent battle.
Norm Murdock [:Wow.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:And because of all of the veteran suicides were there, and that was my first event. And, someone from the Gary Sinese Foundation, was at that event. It's from, Marriott, Ohio. And it's, been quite the journey ever since that debut of that silent battle. We've now done 4 events with the Gary Sinise Foundation. And you talk about a a veteran organization that's going just above and beyond. Support, not only just the veteran community, but also now first responders, fire police. But, yeah, we have silent battle and, we've been out to schools who've hosted us colleges, with veteran service organizations who'll call us and say, hey. You know, we wanna do something, for our college to kinda support the that we have here attending classes. We go to fairs, festivals, The VFW, the the state of New Jersey, the VFW, they had their annual conference at the Boardwalk in Wildwood, New Jersey. They brought us there and put us on the boardwalk. Same time as a country music festival. So that's another example of some some powerful events that we've we've partnered
Norm Murdock [:the, people that made up the 185 people, men and women of Lima company. If I understand this correctly, I'm I'm read I'm about halfway through a book about, Lima company about the the the it's essentially a diary by one of the marines. But, even though I guess the bulk Steven will probably know Exactly. But the bulk maybe came from Ohio. Mhmm. You're you're traveling exhibit. Is is is is highly appropriate because Lima company had people from all over the place. Montana New Mexico, Pennsylvania. I I don't know all the states, but I could see that, you know, even though it sounds like a Columbus or an Ohio story, you know, Cincinnati, Columbus, whatever, where maybe the bulk of the, reservice were from. But they were from a lot of other places too.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:Yeah. They were, in fact, you know, that's one of my goals for the organization. I mean, we've been to 365 events. Our last event in Franklin, Tennessee actually was that 300 and 65th event.
Norm Murdock [:Wow.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:And we've been to 33 States. But one one of my goals for the Oregon one of 3. These are my 3 big goals I gotta share with
Steven Walter [:you,
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:is to get it to all the hometowns of our fallen. It's not into all of them. And I just for for me personally, it's kinda I just feel like it's that's something I need to do. And and one of those is -- That's
Norm Murdock [:a great mission.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:Yeah. Anchorage Alaska is one of them.
Norm Murdock [:That would be great.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:One of our fallen Frasier is from Alaska.
Norm Murdock [:Wow.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:So, yeah, so that's one of one of my goals. The other the other goals is to raise enough funds to be able to to take it to areas and communities that don't have the financial means to do
Norm Murdock [:So, Kelly, one of the things that has been I hate to hog the mic. I'm sorry. But but one of the things about the name of the organization, Eyes of Freedom, is if that is such a I mean, you, you know, you would couple the word freedom with a lot of other things. Eyes of freedom Now I realized that predates your involvement. But do you know the story behind why it's called Eyes of Freedom?
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:It once you see the paintings, I think it's, you know
Brett Johnson [:--
Norm Murdock [:Okay.
Brett Johnson [:--
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:you just know when you look at those paintings and you see their eyes looking back at you.
Norm Murdock [:I see. The paintings.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:It's the paintings themselves.
Brett Johnson [:Yep. Yep. Okay.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:And,
Norm Murdock [:and their life size, almost eight foot
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:8 foot by six foot. Yes. It's a, the trailer that that travels is, is forty two foot. So with with everything and, they're quite heavy, so I have to stay in shape.
Norm Murdock [:They are. I I have to say even though I haven't seen the paintings yet in person, but I've seen, on your website photographs of the of each of the fallen with where they are in the paintings. Anita, it's a remarkable job. The paintings look more like the person than the pictures than the photographs. Is she she really captured what these men really look like. It's it's it's it's almost photorealistic. Her technique.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:You know, it is for sure. And in addition to the paintings on the exhibits is we have the boots from the fallen. With the exception of one pair, that we weren't able to.
Norm Murdock [:You mean the actual?
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:Their actual boots. Some of them still have sand in them. Yeah. And some of the personal Effects that came back in their footlockers. But the one pair that we weren't able to get, we had another marine from Leema Company donated his pair. To the exhibit.
Norm Murdock [:Wow.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:We have an outdoor exhibit that has boots also that travels. Those are just you know, boots from from marines, but not the Lima company in in the fallen.
Norm Murdock [:Incredible.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:So we also have a a letter that's published on the display as one of only a couple things that we actually have other than the boots. And that's from a gold star mom, Jodi David's, and it was the letter that was in the Foot Locker to her that came home from her son. And, it it's it's pretty heavy.
Norm Murdock [:The last thing he had written is family.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:Yes. His, yep, his mom. And, So when I have school groups and, you know, I I bring the kids up and and I have, you know, volunteer read that letter, you know, they're all 17, eighteen years old, you know, coming out of school. Most of the our fall and the average age was twenty years old. And they join, you know, because of what happened at 9:11. So I think it's important that they read those letters.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. That's at the I mentioned Ryan Miller so he was on his way to college. And when 911 happened, he chucked it He just he chucked his whole life and joined the Marine Corps enlisted and another boy out there 1 of the Archie brothers. Same thing. He's now he's now an MD. But he he he was accepted into, a scholarship program and and decided he he could have gone in and and probably been an officer but he went in as enlisted. And, you know, he's got a story about driving some general around through the middle of fallujah in the middle of a battle at night. And, you know, this stuff I think people a lot including me. People like to think our military is always given the best most protective stuff. And I'm halfway through this book, by Ruben Gallegos Gallegos. And he talks about these amp tracks they they were essentially an aluminum bathtub with a caterpillar tracks and and essentially a service rifle could practically go right to sale right. There's no protection and Early on in, I guess, in the operation Iraqi Freedom, they didn't have those V Hold vehicles that were IED, a little bit of better But these guys were essentially using Vietnam era, equipment. Right.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:You're not wrong. And I hear that a lot. From stories of, you know, those who've come back. And, and I think that especially being a reserve unit, And maybe in a a reservice too, you know, we we did not have that top of the line
Brett Johnson [:--
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:Yeah. -- equipment.
Norm Murdock [:Go ahead, Steven. I think at this point, if it's okay, Kelly -- Absolutely.
Brett Johnson [:--
Norm Murdock [:let's let's bring Steven in. So Steven If I understand correctly, you not only, prepped them for deployment. You were with Lima company. You were the master sergeant there at Rickenbacker where they trained and you did training with them, which I understand was a little colorful according to Ruben's book, they brought in local Ohio people to play the role of Iraqi citizens and, and, and so there was some mock training, if you will, go ahead and and let us know about your career and and the training and your experience.
Steven Walter [: : Norm Murdock [:Well, if you will, talk a little bit about what the makeup was of Lima company. I'm a little blown away that I have to say when I'm reading about some of these fellows from Montana or or or the far flung places, how would they do a reservist a few weeks training and then the monthly, training in Columbus, Ohio. If they live so far away, how to How did that work?
Steven Walter [:Well, what happens after you go through boot camp, and then if your infantry or combat arms, you go to the school of infantry in North Carolina. That's about 2 months training. And then we enhanced it with, annual training goals for the reserve as for rival qualification, that kind of thing.
Norm Murdock [:Okay. So the 185, would you have them there doing training all of them at once, or was it by platoon or how
Brett Johnson [:do you
Norm Murdock [:do it?
Steven Walter [:It depends. Now if we're going for rifle qualification, everybody goes.
Norm Murdock [:Okay.
Steven Walter [:Now that kind of
Brett Johnson [:--
Norm Murdock [:So you had vacations where you had a 185 people and you're the master sergeant?
Steven Walter [:The numbers are, I'm unsure of, but they had it under a 185 when they went to Iraq.
Norm Murdock [:Okay.
Steven Walter [:Marine reservice from other units were attached to Lima company.
Norm Murdock [:Okay. So where did you where did where did you do the training here in, I I guess, in Ohio.
Steven Walter [:Well, we went to Camp Outerberry, Indiana
Brett Johnson [:--
Steven Walter [:Okay.
Brett Johnson [:--
Steven Walter [:to do the rifle qualification.
Norm Murdock [:Okay.
Steven Walter [:One time they had a Military operations and urban terrain event at the old Ohio penitentiary. Wow. Yeah. Which was before it was bulldozed.
Norm Murdock [:Right? So yeah. Would these reservice from far flung places then? I mean, they would fly in to Columbus. And then
Brett Johnson [:--
Norm Murdock [:No.
Steven Walter [:They would, go ahead and drill with their unit. If you're with the Montana unit, you drill in Montana. Okay. We have a limit on how far you can come.
Norm Murdock [:Okay. Okay. Even though they were part of Lima company, this is where a civilian like me doesn't understand.
Steven Walter [:Well, they they were added later.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, okay.
Steven Walter [:Well, if we went to, 29 Poms, California for the EyeLock initial Oh, location of combat or whatever it is. I forget the acronym. They were attached to him there. And in that book that I gave you is a the full company and all the names. Okay.
Norm Murdock [:And what was your role in terms of, I guess, equipping, training, etcetera. Were you the orchestrator of all of that?
Steven Walter [:Uh-uh. No. None of it at all. I had the bill at his trading chief, but that, included a lot of community outreach. And then during the tragedies, the Casualty Assistance Call Officer.
Norm Murdock [:So in a reserve unit, can you explain a little bit about, The the this sounds terribly critical and it's not meant to be, but the Lima company before we get to the events, the very dramatic events that that took place during operation Iraqi freedom where all these lives were sacrificed for us for the American people. Can you talk a little bit about I guess, the the makeup, the the kind of community that a reservist unit has because it's different than active duty and some of the deficits, if you will, that this this this book, they called us lucky by Gallegas that I'm that I'm in the middle of about Lima company about his experience, anyway. Mentions that reserve units are a little bit heavy on talented NCOs, that that there tends to be a lot of sergeants and corporals and not so many officers.
Steven Walter [:Right.
Norm Murdock [:And could you talk a bit a little bit about the culture of active duty versus reserves and how Lima company when they got deployed, you know, some of the reserve units had rather I don't wanna this sounds critical. I I don't know how else to say it, but they had maybe less risky assignments. What Lima company was really put into the, like what an active duty unit would have done. I mean, they were put into, sweeps of homes. They're knocking on home front doors. Searching every room. They're breaking padlocks and storage buildings. They're, they're being assigned to initiate combat with the insurgents. There all of these missions, which are really rough missions. It's not the kind of thing that me as a civilian would think weekend warriors would necessarily be assigned to. And and that sounds disparaging. I don't mean it to be. But could you explain that?
Steven Walter [:Well, again, they went to 29 Palms for about 6, 7 weeks of training before they even moved to Iraq. They left here January 5th at Bank of 05 went out to there for their advanced training. All marines have the basics. In terms of a school of infantry, if your infantry, if you're not, then, you go to, an abbreviated course. Theoretically, every marine is a rifleman first. So I could get a clerk, a Piccolo player, an airline mechanic, and myself And we could do our diamond. We could do our, that kind of thing.
Norm Murdock [:Okay. And what would you say about the I guess the proficiency, I guess, is the most respectful way to put it. Gallegos in his book talks about this viewpoint that some have that reservice or second stringers. He used that word second stringers. What is the proficiency difference between active duty and reservice if there is a difference?
Steven Walter [:I wouldn't say there's a difference, not in the combat situation. We're not going to send marines out who are not trained
Norm Murdock [:for their mission. Okay. So for people looking at a reserve unit with this level of KIA, the most the most terrible loss of life since the Barrick's bombing
Brett Johnson [:--
Steven Walter [:Right.
Brett Johnson [:--
Norm Murdock [:in Lebanon. Some might make some kind of knee jerk conclusion that, oh, well, maybe they were ill prepared in some way. And you would say absolutely not.
Steven Walter [:Absolutely not. Okay. With an exclamation.
Norm Murdock [:Because we need to get that right out on the table. Right? Because I think a lot of people might think that?
Steven Walter [:Well, we have an obligation in the marine too as an organization.
Norm Murdock [:Okay. That that they will be properly
Steven Walter [:trained and
Norm Murdock [:will be properly.
Steven Walter [:So they can accomplish the mission, the mission, then the marines. Okay.
Norm Murdock [:Very good. When when they're -- Go ahead.
Brett Johnson [:They're they're coming together once a month.
Steven Walter [:Right. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:How do they stay close as a unit? When they're only seeing each other so very few times.
Steven Walter [:They manage, and I'm sure that they within today's social media. They can
Brett Johnson [:-- It helps. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Because they're not seeing it. Like, as you brought to the forefront, why you joined the marines, you needed the community where a reservice may not have that, but once a month, or, you know, the, of course, well, training and such like that.
Steven Walter [:When they're 18, they come in for reasons, different mind.
Norm Murdock [:For sure.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. For a good point. Yeah. Point. Yeah. You had 20 years on him. But it just it it just dawned him and going, yeah, you're you're seeing these guys and women once a month, but the the intense training and and such, but just that they, you know, they still are a unit though. Yeah. There's still a unit.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:And, you know, I I did that for 10 years. And, I would tell you that I felt Incredibly, you know, trained and comfortable with my reservice. And, yeah, I think, and prepared. And they were your family.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. I I think you bring up a good point norm that I think we need. I don't know if that's still linkers, but we need to dispel that. The the 2nd stringers.
Norm Murdock [: hey were deployed in March of: Steven Walter [:Okay. In terms of preparation, I would please announce that My police friends who are also lawyers came out to the reserves center a few times and did a one on one with each marine. Wow. I doubt that that's done on active duty. It's usually here's signed up for a move. Yeah. And those, lawyers wound up executing a lot of those wills. Wow. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:So they they were squared away with the legalities. Yeah. And and you you that was something you orchestrated.
Steven Walter [:Amen. Well, you had that. Yeah. And I told them you come out, they'll get you free lunch. So they came out and we took a break and ate lunch and there weren't too many people in there. And I said, I pointed out notice here how the highest ranking Marines reading last because it's a junior Marines who're going to accomplish the mission. If I get a meal fine, if I don't, nobody cares, and that's the way it ought to be.
Norm Murdock [:Yep. Mhmm. So, were these were these marines, in your opinion, you know, did they go over there with all the kit that they needed They were not short anything.
Steven Walter [:I would have no way of knowing what intuitive feeling is you can't send and rings out the combat ill equipped.
Norm Murdock [:Okay. So they got they got everything active duty guys got.
Steven Walter [:That, I would believe that strongly.
Norm Murdock [: ey deploy to Iraq in March of: Steven Walter [:The SUNY triangle.
Norm Murdock [:The SUNY triangle.
Steven Walter [:Yeah. Alan by province province but Syria.
Norm Murdock [:Okay.
Steven Walter [:And Syria and we're we're coming over to Aden their resistance of us.
Norm Murdock [:So they were called lucky Lima for what reason?
Steven Walter [:Because I guess the news people liked the liberation. They had many operations, through last part of March, and April had no casualties. When I first heard the term lucky leave, I thought, what? I've never heard that before. Yeah. Because the history of leading the company is not filled with good fortune all the way back to World War 2, for example, And then all of a sudden, did the casualties began?
Norm Murdock [:To Lima in World War 2, you're referring to their service at Iwojima in Okinawa. Pima.
Steven Walter [: : Norm Murdock [:Out of.
Steven Walter [:But, well, it was a 185 band company, but the battalion I had 550 casualties out of a 700 man battalion. So the 3rd battalion 25th regiment was always finished 1st 12 hours.
Norm Murdock [:Unbelievable. Yeah. So lucky Lima, as you say, doesn't quite. It's almost a curse to be
Steven Walter [:called that. It's been installed Yeah. And at the time, it wasn't because we had had no casualties. But,
Norm Murdock [:yeah, they thought they thought this is a pristine unit. They they're they're they're, you know, so far nobody has a twisted ankle or any
Steven Walter [:bone
Norm Murdock [: uple months. And then, May of: Steven Walter [: K. May of: Norm Murdock [:Yeah. That was one of your duties was to be part of the well, along with the chaplain, I suppose, you you would
Brett Johnson [:--
Steven Walter [:Well, a commissioned officer or warrant officer delivers the a notification of the death. Okay. Then he backs off, turns it over to me, and I'm the one who works with the family, in terms of, getting the body back to Dover air for for space. Port Columbus, the transfer of the, remains to the funeral home, the viewing, the funeral, and the internment.
Norm Murdock [:Okay. There was was that due to an IED? Was that the
Brett Johnson [:--
Steven Walter [:No. He was shot in the back.
Norm Murdock [:Okay.
Steven Walter [:In the death house. In the death house.
Norm Murdock [:And then There was an IED that took out an Amtrak that same month. Is that no.
Steven Walter [:That was it. Well, yes. Of Dixon.
Norm Murdock [:Dixon.
Steven Walter [:And, David's, I think, was in that. Okay. And, you know, Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Right. And I
Brett Johnson [:know you probably considered it an honor to do what you did to have --
Norm Murdock [:Oh, absolutely.
Brett Johnson [:-- but how did you how do you do that?
Steven Walter [:Well, as a as a 50 year plus Mhmm. And all those years on the PD, I learned how to talk to people. I do what to say when and more importantly, when they shut up. Yeah. And then about 6 weeks after the tournament, I would get a blank card. And on the left side, I would write I pray that our heavenly father will assuage the grief of your bereavement and leave you with nothing but cherished memories of those loved in laws. Sincerely and respectfully, a Lincoln from the Bixby letter. If you've seen the saving private ride, then I would write on the opposite side, dear. So I thought that mister Lincoln's words would be of comfort to you. Now a younger man wouldn't have been able to do that -- Mhmm.
Brett Johnson [:--
Steven Walter [:would have thought to. Not judging him out of context.
Norm Murdock [:Who's the chair?
Steven Walter [:And, I made the, death notification on Lance corporal Aaron Reed. His mother still has that card. But, again, August 3rd was the tragedy. Talk talk.
Norm Murdock [:Go go ahead and and take us through that, Steven.
Steven Walter [: th,: Norm Murdock [:Yes, sir.
Steven Walter [: Monica woke me at: Norm Murdock [:Yeah. So dramatic pause there. I'm I'm a I'm a little lost for words to react to that.
Steven Walter [:Yeah. I needed to make sure I recovered the facts and the feelings -- Yeah. -- there, every
Norm Murdock [:I I'm with Brett. I don't know how you do that job. But somebody has to do it.
Brett Johnson [:And thank god you can.
Norm Murdock [:He did. Yes. Excuse me, quote, unquote, the old man.
Steven Walter [:Yes. They
Norm Murdock [:you were the perfect person.
Steven Walter [:Alright. Exactly.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Somebody
Steven Walter [:Younger. Yeah. Even now, I maintain contact with the the parents with whom I worked at that time. Sarah Duval, Jim and Kathy Bernholtz, Sarah. And a lot of these
Norm Murdock [:men had you very young children.
Steven Walter [:I mean -- -- had 2 that I know of. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Didn't have Kreider
Steven Walter [:Croider had the infant that I held. Yeah. Corp corporate lions had a child. Because these are
Norm Murdock [:these are, you know, young men in the prime prime of their lives
Brett Johnson [:--
Steven Walter [:Mhmm.
Brett Johnson [:--
Norm Murdock [:with, young wives and young babies.
Steven Walter [:A widening circle of rip ripping ripples a tragedy.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:And I and I I see the impact that it's had on so many lives as I've traveled across the country. I know with Cruder, specifically, NASCAR racing, Ryan Blaney.
Norm Murdock [:Sounds right. Yeah.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:He had he won the Pepsi 400, and he had Kruder's name. I think they went to high school together.
Brett Johnson [:Wow.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:And Mason, and he had his name on his windshield. And he won that race. I thought that was appropriate. Right?
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. That's awesome.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:But, you know, out in Sioux Falls, I had a Navy Corman come and said he went to every single funeral of the fallen. So it's just it's incredible that like Master Sean Walter said, the the ripple effect with family and those who serve that have that's still relive that that day and those experiences when they come out to our exhibit.
Norm Murdock [:So that leads us into the after effects of war and that is a primary mission of the eyes of freedom and your personal work. Master.
Steven Walter [:Right. And, silent battle.
Norm Murdock [:Say that again, please.
Steven Walter [:Silent battle.
Norm Murdock [:Silent battle.
Steven Walter [:Yeah. This is the
Norm Murdock [:the sculpture is also that battle is being fought if you will silently. That doesn't mean without noise, But within their mind within the very complex, you know, thought processes where somebody appears to be under control, have it together, and then they have an episode
Steven Walter [:Right. The the suicide rate among veterans of all wars was 10 or 15 a day. Now it gave a lot of underlying circumstance of that. But
Brett Johnson [:--
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:Yeah. Oh, survivor's guilt is is a horrible thing. And, you know, not only do or do we see, mental health crises that that happen at almost every event that we have. With the Gary Sines Foundation, they actually have trained counselors at every one of their events, which it kinda speaks to,
Norm Murdock [:you know -- So when something happens in real time -- Yeah.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:They're right there. They're right there to help assist them. So I've totally taken that to the next level. And then the other thing that that, you know, we don't talk about enough is the secondary PTSD with the families and the wives and the children that walk on egg shells, because of the experiences, the with their loved ones that come home from such hell.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. I think the author of that book, I keep referencing, his marriage did not survive. I mean, when he came home, he got married, but it was it wasn't the war. Like like, wasn't his deployment that broke up the marriage. It was the after a his PTSD, his his attitudes, his experiences, and their marriages and ability to sustain to to sustain that. Thankfully, I think he says in the book, they're friends today. But,
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:Well, the the the the struggle is is with purpose. With them, but trying to find their purpose.
Norm Murdock [:The purpose of
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:life. That's what's missing. And it's, you know, it it the careers that are when you transition, from military service into the civilian world, they they don't align necessarily. And and we gotta get better about that.
Norm Murdock [:I guess as a civilian myself that you know, civilian looks at their career or they look at their life achievements and we all think civilian mindset thinks Okay. I'm a young person. As I get older and older, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to Apex my career later in life. Like, I'll do my greatest things when I'm in my fifties or maybe my sixties even. Right? Those will be the high points of my life. The things with the the biggest challenges, the biggest obstacles to overcome and my visit, not my my success stories will be things I do later in life And it just occurs to me that when you're a soldier, the the most traumatic things, the most meaningful things. Maybe not for all of them, but for a a goodly number of them might be their military experience And they're going through that before they have the maturity, if you will, or the seasoning that the sergeant had. They're going through that at a very young age. And don't they say men
Brett Johnson [:--
Norm Murdock [:2026. -- women can always laugh at this statistic, but men's brains aren't even fully developed until they're 26. You got people who are eighteen, nineteen, twenty years old,
Brett Johnson [:fifty evidence not available.
Norm Murdock [:I'm not gonna say my age, but I would say I'm still a project too. But, yeah, so It's the the the mental tool kit.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:It's just not there for everybody.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:Right. You
Brett Johnson [:know, and and it's been compromised.
Norm Murdock [:Their family backgrounds might be pretty rough too.
Brett Johnson [:Mhmm. Right. I if I understand correctly from podcasts that I've heard and and I think Ohio means jobs is trying to help with that disconnect that they're they're prioritizing employment opportunities and trying to get away from that. Okay. You're in the military, so you'd be a great cop. Okay. You know? Or you're you're you're security security, whatever. It's that I can take it take it, yeah, take it three steps beyond that, and maybe this person could do that because of the skills. Cause we don't as civilians, we don't understand when you, from what I gather, when, someone walks out of the military and they give they did this, this, this, and this. It doesn't translate into, I don't know what that means. Exactly. You know, we think, okay, military logistics. Well, yes. And much more than that because we don't understand what the jobs you did mean. In civilian life. And I think we're doing better, but it it has a long way to go though too.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:Yeah. I Ohio is definitely do that. And I I know there's a group here that's just been formed called the Ohio veteran Coalition. It's being, spearheaded by a gentleman, a army veteran AJ or who's working with a lot of state lobbyists and and, folks in in the political arena, to kinda help with those veteran resources. We do a poll. I created this donation box of a poll that I take out on the road with me and people can vote by donation on what do they think, like, the most needs are in the veteran community. And, you know, we obviously got mental health But we got, employment, and we've got, housing.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:And then education. And 90% of the donations are in the mental health space, but every once in a while, you'll have someone say, no. It's everyone. It's every It's actually every single one. But, yeah, there's we're seeing more, and across all of the states because I get the beauty of traveling and meeting with these, you know, folks that are trying to make a difference there, but, yeah, they, they're starting to get it that, yeah, we gotta do a better job of engaging these folks in the in the workforce.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:And then and that's on the employer's shoulders. Yeah. They they have to they have to make that effort too. You want to employ a veteran make those extra steps to understand what that veteran has to offer versus just --
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. It's and also, Colleges And Universities And Trade Schools. So I tell a little story about a marine recon guy that, I was friends with from my church. He came back, and I don't know if he deployed or not. He didn't talk about it much, and I didn't press. All I knew is he enrolled at Ohio State. Not not to pick on Ohio State, but Ohio State's a pretty wealthy place. They have a lot of resources that they probably don't even know that they should, you know, they they should expand for veterans. And his story was he came back and as you know, military have this, I don't know what they call it now, but I'll call it GI bill. Yeah. Right? They have education benefits. Mhmm. Right? So he comes back enrolls at Ohio State. It's halfway through a semester or a third way through, but he he's getting part through and he has He has mental problems. He has PTSD. He has something going on where he can't complete his studies that semester. And I'm immediately being the legal beagle I am. Right? I'm not a lawyer, but I got a law degree. I'm immediately thinking, oh my god. He just wasted part of his GI bill, you know, because they're not gonna get they're not gonna let him come back for free. Right?
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:For that semester that he dropped out. Right? So I call the highest state and I get the runaround. Right? Don't talk to this guy Talk to this lady, talk to that department. And basically after a few circles, there's nothing anybody can do. They don't understand why somebody would drop out and how how they as a pretty wealthy institution. Yeah. I'm like, come on, guys. Okay. He he served his country. Right. He he he blew half a semester. When when and if he's ready to come back to Ohio State. Could you give him Give him the chair. Give give him the give him that semester. Get you you know, Instead of crossing it off his benefits list, like, okay. You burned up 1 semester. Now you that's gone forever. For people who have served our country, can't you recognize PTSD? Can't you be humane about this? And I think somebody at Ohio State If you explained it to them, probably would change the policy. Right? Cause it's it's it's a tiny thing. It's a it's it's not really gonna cost them anything. For another person to sit in a chair.
Brett Johnson [:And you can go opposite that. I'll let you
Norm Murdock [:But we need those things
Brett Johnson [:done for our
Norm Murdock [:our veterans.
Brett Johnson [:And my wife teaches it right state. Right? State is complete opposite. They super serve right pad. It it that's that's what they do. And and the allowances that you just talked about are there for them, right, Bright State University.
Norm Murdock [:That sounds good.
Brett Johnson [:So I think there are universities that really recognize that, and that is top priority for Wright State.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:Yeah. It it a lot of colleges were it you know, we're going out west 3 or 4 times, at the end of the year, just to some colleges And we're being brought in by these veteran service offices with the colleges. I think Ohio State, you know, I have a son who's a senior there. They they cooperate in silos, you know, so you're not wrong. They're just I I think the intentions are good. And I think they are getting better about it. And it least kinda what I'm seeing on the surface and through conversations, but they're just so big.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. They're so big.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:It's a little easier, right, at right pet and some of these smaller schools. It is.
Norm Murdock [:It is. It is for sure. I was calling the IRS about how
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:I buy that. Right?
Brett Johnson [:I bet.
Norm Murdock [:It was unbelievable urocracy. Yeah.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:But it's the same in corporate too. Right? You got these big companies where veterans come in, and they've got problems. And They don't necessarily align with all of that. Those employee handbooks and those HR laws and, you know, all that stuff. I mean, it's a lot different coming out of the the military environment. So they gotta find a way.
Norm Murdock [:They gotta find a
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:way. Exactly.
Norm Murdock [:There has to be some humanity extended to these people because you know, they literally, you know, there's no greater love, they say, right, than than put putting your life on the line for your fellow service members as well as your country. No greater love. Right? And we gotta love them back as a society. And so talk a little bit Steven and Kelly about this event on October 7th in Grove City, what it is, and is the public invited in in how How can the public support Isaac Freedom?
Steven Walter [: : Kelly Jones-Swenson [:Well, we actually have, we we have the original exhibit that was in the statehouse of the eight and a half six foot paintings. That's the forty two two foot R and L trailer that takes us around. But then we have a a 34 scaled size replica of sorts that goes to outdoor exhibits. We can do fairish festivals. You know, they won't get damaged and that kind of thing storms, hail, you name it. Yeah. But then we actually have, some oil canvas paintings of our fallen and that can be set up on easels. That gives us some flexibility to take to events like this that in which we're gonna do at the crib city library with.
Steven Walter [: : Norm Murdock [:Outstanding. Absolutely. Yeah. Can we talk a little bit about, police affairs? Sure.
Steven Walter [:Absolutely. Well, affairs might be a little bit. Come on. Or his old sergeant Malloy was asked to be returned. I walked right into that today. Sergeant Molloy said, Steve, where can I come to work sober, broke, and horny, and of all those problems, take care of a one shift? Puertoically. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Reto oh, of course. So I I have to I have to ask, a little bit.
Steven Walter [:Sure.
Norm Murdock [: ant to talk about. I think in: Steven Walter [:and for balonious assault
Norm Murdock [: d for balonious assaults. And: Steven Walter [:Well, we've had a 112 homicides so far. That we're investigating. 2 women were murdered at the, the the bar On south eye, another man is in critical condition. There just seems to be no concept of the preciousness of human life. If you disagree with me, I'll shoot you.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. And you saw that with
Steven Walter [:the the thirteen year old at Eastern
Brett Johnson [:--
Steven Walter [:Yeah. -- killing the fifteen year old at Eastern. In my day, a gun was a water pistol. Right. Bring it to school. It'd be get paddled. Right. That's right. So sad. And, well, the department is 217 officers short. So the patrol force that you could do some subtraction at street level for intermittent periods of time. Just doesn't have the staffing to do that. There is a chalking out bodies and
Brett Johnson [:--
Steven Walter [:Yeah. -- doing the scene tape. And I believe Columbus is the only city in America that has both a Mothers of murdered children group and of fathers of murdered children group.
Norm Murdock [: is up. But Steven, I think in: Brett Johnson [:--
Steven Walter [:Right.
Brett Johnson [:--
Norm Murdock [:was He was the chairman of the local ACLU as a Columbus police officer active, you know, full time police officer. He was also very victim's rights oriented and and so you and and you received a lot of criticism for that. You might have been the only police officer Ever. I don't know. Maybe ever. Yeah. Who who who chaired a an ACLU chapter. Now the ACLU is different today. Than it was back then. Right. We don't necessarily need to we've done that on our show here many times, but 40 years ago, the ACLU you was very different than it is today. Let's just leave it at that so we don't get into a a side a side discussion. But I think it says something about you and your dedication to the community here that not only would you arrest somebody and seek their prosecution, you would also seek the truth. You would also seek true justice. The actual facts, not not a a a knee jerk, either racist or misogynist, kind of conclusion about what happened. You would determine the facts and were very logical and that speaks I think that is probably why the police today so admire you is that you you you had a brain that could encompass the entire panoply of law enforcement in a way that I think is remarkable.
Steven Walter [:Well, it wasn't encouraged. By
Brett Johnson [:--
Steven Walter [: a quick story. It's April of: Norm Murdock [:Yeah. You were doing community policing before they -- Exactly.
Brett Johnson [:--
Norm Murdock [:before they called it community policing. You knew your beat. You knew your area. And you knew it on a granular detail level.
Steven Walter [: s a a perfect example. But in: Norm Murdock [:Fantastic. Yep. So We see a dynamic happening. You know, I've been in Columbia. I'm I'm not from Columbus, but I've been here in town long enough. 35 years or so to see great buildups of of a treasurer and effort and on the part of chambers at Commerce and the city council and the mayors of both parties. And of of doing wonderful things in Columbus such as the city center which which is now gone, right? The city center mall which which was a -- Beautiful. -- for people who don't remember. It was just an incredibly beautiful -- It was.
Brett Johnson [:It was.
Norm Murdock [:Parking was free. Yeah. I mean, it was unbelievable in the in the the the the the well-to-do and and the and the impoverished the like, mixed together in a very peaceful way for many years at city center until there was a gang shooting, I think it was. At the escalator. And and and pretty much the nice ladies in the suburbs said, well, that that's it. Yeah. Well, that's it. I'm not coming downtown anymore. And and if that's how quickly, and that I don't have nothing to do with bad policing, but that's an example where if criminal activity happens, how quickly it can crater something that was 1,000,000 and 10s 100 of 1,000,000 of dollars with, you know, Marshals and Jacobs and Jacobsons and all of these wonderful stores, right? Just gone. Yeah. Gone. And in just a couple of years, it it turned into, you know, vape shops and nothing wrong with vape shops, but it it became it wasn't what it used to be. And now it's and now it's a grass parking lot or whatever it is. It's an alternate area.
Steven Walter [:Where they hold, events? Events.
Brett Johnson [:Well, and and it it'll be interesting to see how and east the eastons of the world. Eastern is now having those issues.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Just as you brought up --
Norm Murdock [:Yes.
Brett Johnson [:-- how does How does an or, you know, a a a --
Norm Murdock [:And Polaris and Polaris. And Polaris. Right.
Brett Johnson [:You know, how does it survive?
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:The the the bad PR.
Norm Murdock [:That Northland Mall went through. And now that's gone.
Brett Johnson [:Right?
Norm Murdock [:Right. The the city center's gone. I worry about the short north, master sergeant, the the short north. So I know a young man that rehabbed a home there He and his wife live there. They're afraid to go out after dark now. He's right off high street on what it you know, he bought one of those homes 100, I think, maybe a half a $1,000,000 home. Right? And then he rehabbed it. So I don't know what he's got in it now. Maybe 750,000. Who knows? And he and he rents half of it out and the other half, he and his wife live in. And you just think for a a fellow like that, who who are they're thinking of having children, the neighborhood now is is is completely different than it was just 2 or 3 years ago.
Steven Walter [:Well, hopefully, we can return it to some semblance of sanity.
Norm Murdock [:It's it seems to be, and I don't wanna criticize the police, but this is this is very sensitive to talk about, but it it the current milieu that the police operate in is such that I don't know what they caught. They this happened in Ferguson, Missouri. It happened in Chicago. It's happened in a lot of cities. Seems to be happening here in Columbus. Where the police are reticent, let's say, to be proactive because the downside could be that a jury sends an officer to prison. Well, I mean, for for for for something that maybe is misunderstood stood by the the jury.
Steven Walter [:Well, to encapsulate one of my, friends who's a deputy chief recently retired The story was that an officer 1 came up to him and said, chief, if I ever get in a shootout, I hope I'm the one who gets killed. So my wife and family will be protected versus me going to jail.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a real concern
Steven Walter [:about it. Absolutely. So you you take your runs And then do something else until you get the next run, which might be outlining a body or stringing scene tape but in terms of scratch it and dig it.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. I used to go to the short north. 1 of the mayors of Columbus. I it wasn't my Coleman. I can't think of the name of the guy. Leshutka? No. It's a different different mayor, but he owned a bar or a or a jazz club or something downtown on in the short north. And I used to go there. Jerry something.
Steven Walter [:You can Jerry Hammond. Mhmm. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:I think Jerry Hammond. He was a city council city councilman. Sorry. Not mayor. He he had a jazz club downtown. I used to
Brett Johnson [:--
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. -- I used to go at major court. I think it was called. Mhmm. Used to go there. And it was a wonderful place. And I remember the police walking that they were on the sidewalk on bicycles. They were thick through that area.
Steven Walter [:Right.
Norm Murdock [:Because let's let's face it. There were drug addicts and the wild kinds of people, you know, it panhandlers. Yeah. And and they wanted to make sure that the friction between suburbanites and inner city folks that it went okay. And and and it seemed to work. And the and the area thrived. They built the new convention center. Right.
Steven Walter [:Contrast out with that tragedy we had recently. Where one man got in a fight with another. His friend, soccer punched a man, he fell was dead. Mhmm. The police president would have prevented that. Exactly.
Norm Murdock [:So I we're concerned about that. We've talked a lot about that on our show here about you know, is Columbus gonna end up being another one of those donut cities like Cleveland where the area in the middle is burned out? And people are afraid to live there. And we're all gonna run out to live in Licking in Delaware County now.
Steven Walter [:Possibility, especially with You know, we, intel come again
Norm Murdock [:and -- Yeah.
Steven Walter [:Yeah. And all of that. -- opportunity there. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Well, Brett, what do you what do you any further questions before we wrap up?
Brett Johnson [:I think we got it. It's this has been this was moving. Thank you.
Steven Walter [:You're welcome.
Norm Murdock [:Thank you for re helping
Brett Johnson [:us remember. And bringing new light.
Steven Walter [:Well, thank you.
Brett Johnson [:The things we we we didn't know about.
Steven Walter [:Thank you for the opportunity. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Yep. Anytime. Thank you. You bet. You bet. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Thank you, Sergeant.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. We will have, links to everything we talked about in the show notes.
Norm Murdock [:By the way, Steven's a sergeant twice over. PD Sergeant
Brett Johnson [:Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Marine Corps master sergeant. So
Brett Johnson [:-- That's right.
Norm Murdock [:Sergeant works both ways. Exactly. Exactly.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah, if you need links, I mean, if you need to, you know, find out it, make sure you go to this event in October. Yeah. We'll we'll have, you know, a notation of that in the show notes. But everything we talked about, we'll a lot of easy references.
Norm Murdock [:Kelly, it's the website once more. Could you give us the website?
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:It's a eyesafredom.org.
Brett Johnson [:Okay. Alright. Great.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:We're on all the social media platforms as well. Super.
Norm Murdock [:And we just friended, Eyes of Freedom as a podcast. So we're we're we're plugged in
Brett Johnson [:now. Nice. Nice. Nice. Yeah.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:Perfect. Perfect.
Brett Johnson [:And, yeah, everything on, common sense, Ohio show dot com. Thanks for joining us.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:Thank you.
Norm Murdock [:And come back. We'd like you to
Brett Johnson [:call out.
Kelly Jones-Swenson [:Don't love to.
Steven Walter [:I need about 10 minutes notice.
Brett Johnson [:Well, that's 5 more minutes of prep than you we get. Yeah. That's good. Thanks again for joining us. Appreciate it.
