You've built something stable together — you know each other's rhythms, you can finish each other's sentences at the grocery store, you've made it through the hard stretches. And somewhere inside all that safety, you've noticed the charge that used to be there has gone quiet. That's not a sign your relationship is failing. It's a mechanism.

This week Rachel is joined by psychologist Bruce Chalmer and his wife Judy — together two decades, co-hosts of their own podcast, and two people who've spent as much time studying long-term intimacy as living inside it. They talk about why predictability and desire can end up pulling in opposite directions, what it actually took each of them to build a relationship where honesty about sex didn't feel dangerous, and why so many couples stop bringing up what they want long before they stop wanting it. The conversation moves through fantasy, disappointment, the gendered patterns that quietly shape a couple's intimacy, and what it means to stay curious about someone you already know so well.

One of the more useful reframes here has nothing to do with technique. It's the idea that tolerating mild, ordinary annoyance without panicking is one of the most underrated relationship skills there is — and that real intimacy isn't about staying novel, it's about staying present enough that everything still feels new. Emotional safety and desire aren't opposites you have to manage against each other. The tension between them is something a couple can actually work with, once they stop treating it as proof something's wrong.

Passion doesn't disappear because a relationship got stable. It goes quiet because somewhere along the way, it stopped feeling safe to keep reaching for it.

About the Guests

Bruce Chalmer is a licensed psychologist specializing in couples therapy. For decades, he has worked with partners navigating betrayal, desire, conflict, and the often unspoken tensions that shape long-term intimacy. He is the author of several books on relationships, including Reigniting the Spark, It's Not About Communication, Betrayal and Forgiveness, and The Passion Paradox. He has also created self-paced video courses, especially for people who want to work on their own before (or maybe instead of) starting couples sessions. His work focuses on emotional clarity — helping couples understand what's happening beneath the surface of their struggles. On the podcast, Bruce brings the same thoughtful inquiry he brings to his clinical work — occasionally drifting into theory, and just as often being gently brought back by Judy.

Judy Chalmer spent many years as a teacher and principal, guiding students and families through the complex realities of growth, learning, and relationship. Her instinct for clarity — and her willingness to ask the question beneath the question — shape the tone of the podcast as much as any clinical theory. Judy's perspective is grounded, direct, and often disarmingly funny. When Bruce begins to analyze, Judy translates. When the conversation grows abstract, she brings it back to lived experience. She is also the author, under her pseudonym Laria Zylber, of The Blue Tent, a book of biblical erotica — a creative exploration of desire, voice, and sacred storytelling.

Where to Find Bruce & Judy

• Bruce Chalmer: brucechalmer.com
• Couples Therapy in Seven Words (Bruce & Judy's podcast): ctin7.com
• Judy Chalmer, writing as Laria Zylber: lariazylber.com

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Resources

• Free 7-Day Relationship Challenge: 7 short emails and daily challenges that you can do with your morning coffee. You'll never see your relationship the same way again.
• Work with Me - Individualized Guidance: High-touch, individualized support for deep relational pattern change.
• Meaningful Journey Counseling (WA residents only): Licensed therapy services for individuals and couples in Washington State.

Disclaimer

This podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not a substitute for mental health treatment, therapy, diagnosis, or medical advice. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist-client relationship. If you are experiencing significant distress, please seek support from a licensed mental health professional or medical provider.

There's a version of this that almost every long term couple runs into eventually. You've built something stable, you know each other's rhythms, you've weathered the hard stretches, and you can finish each other's sentences at the grocery store. And somewhere in the middle of all that safety, you notice the charge that used to be there, the anticipation and the tension and the spark has gotten a little quieter. That's the passion paradox. The very stability that lets you stay the

Predictability, the safety and the knowing of each other is often the same thing that flattens desire. It's not a flaw in the relationship, it's a mechanism. Safety and eroticism aren't pulling always in the same direction. And almost nobody tells you that's what's going on. So today I'm talking with two people who have been living inside that paradox for decades and studying it from both sides of the couch and the bed.

Bruce is a licensed psychologist who's spent his career in couples therapy. Betrayal, desire, conflict, and the tensions couples say out loud. He's written several books on relationships, including one literally called The Passion Paradox, and he co-hosts a posit podcast called Couples Therapy in Seven Words, where he'll start drifting into theory and get reliably pulled back down to earth by his wife Judy. She spent years as a teacher and a principal.

Which means she spent years translating complicated things into what actually matters. And she does the same thing in their podcast where she is grounded, direct, and funny in a way that catches you off guard. When Bruce starts analyzing, Judy brings it back to what it's actually like to live it. Judy also takes this topic to another level in her book of biblical erotica, The Blue Tent. So this isn't theory from a distance, it's two people.

who have kept something alive that most couples are told is supposed to fade. And today we are going to talk about what it's actually taken. Bruce, Judy, welcome to Coupled With.

Thank you.

Well

thank you. What a delightful introduction. I have to say. I really enjoyed that.

You really

You really get us, don't you?

Yeah.

I I like to think that I get people. So it's pretty amazing. This has been your life work and you get to translate it into your personal life together. So what has that been like? What's the secret sauce to keeping the spark alive in your relationship?

well, you know, on our podcast, the seven word formula, be kind, don't panic, have faith. I think the the thing that for me with Bruce is the be kind part. He's always kind and respectful and you know, is willing to listen to me, doesn't fly off the handle, doesn't immediately d he doesn't get defensive, he doesn't make me feel like I need to get defensive. he and I have been through a marriage.

prior to our marriage now. So in the couple of decades that we've been together, he's been nothing but kind, respectful, willing to listen, willing to hear me out and doesn't interrupt, you know, does does all the right things, but you know, he's trained in that. And I think that that has rubbed off on me. So I think some of the, you know, panic that I the the modes that I had gotten into in my previous marriage and relationships.

has totally transformed me.

Being with somebody who makes you feel safe has really allowed you to open up and become more vulnerable.

Absolutely. That is a good way to put it.

And and of course I can I could say similar things. I mean the the fact that we have each been through previous marriages that for quite different reasons ended up not working out, that we both benefited from that. And it you know, and the the the lovely tribute you were giving toward me, which I I sit here and I I blush, you know, that of course the the stuff that Judy is seeing in me, of course, is facilitated by what I'm seeing in her because

She's so nice to me. So it it helps a lot in both directions. It's funny, you know, I I wrote a whole book, Reigniting the Spark, you know, and I'm sure we'll be talking about some of those ideas. That whole that idea, the passion paradox, that's another book I wrote, very similar themes. But you have said, Judy has said we has often said, no, you know, we have a that seven-word formula Judy mentioned, but there's a four-word formula. Do you remember the four-word formula you've described?

Find the right person.

That's simple.

Yeah, there's that. And I realize, yeah, that doesn't help a lot when you've already got somebody, right? a lot of my work is about trying to find that perhaps you have the right person, even though you you you're not sure about it. In our case, I think we benefited so much from how our what kind of happened at our previous lives that we were so ready to find we happen to be the right person for each other in ways that it was really quite remarkable when we first met. Mm-hmm. It was sort of like

my God. I d you know, here we are and we just seem so well aligned on so many things. that

Similar backgrounds, similar outlooks, you know, shared goals. It was just, you know

Well, oftentimes when you've been in a previous long term relationship or marriage, you learn a lot about what you really need and want in a relationship and where that got difficult in the previous relationship. Right. So when you go back on the market and you're looking for somebody, your your picker is a lot more attuned to what you're needing.

Yeah, and you know, it's interesting. That of course is true. I will also note the opposite phenomenon statistically. I'm I before I was a psychologist, I used to be a statistician way back in the day. So I still have my my little nerdy statistical brain, which is statistically second marriages have worse outcomes than first. But I think that's because statistically of the people who who divorced after a first marriage, some of them divorced because it

in I think our situations it just didn't work out for various reasons that weren't about our not being good for marriage. They were about our marriages not working out. There is a significant chunk of people whose first marriages don't work out who probably are going to have to learn a lot of stuff before they try another marriage. And if they haven't learned it, their second marriage is likely to be worse throat than the first.

absolutely.

Statistically, that's I that kind of accounts for that statistic.

And then there are people that make the same mistakes over and over again. Yeah. You know, they wanna they go for a certain type as opposed to finding what's right for them.

Yeah.

Well, and it's interesting because a lot of times what people will do is they'll meet someone and they'll be thinking, as long as you're not like the last one, it's okay. And then they won't actually get to know that person and then you know other things will go wrong. So yeah, you really do need to be i if you can learn the lessons from a previous relationship, then you're in good shape going into another one. If you don't, you're just gonna keep repeating the problem.

Yeah, whether or not you've had therapy or couples therapy during your previous relationship, if you're not learning the things that are coming up for you and the ways that you are behaving in a relationship, then it doesn't matter what you who you find in the second relationship, that one's gonna have a much lower chance of success.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. True.

So having gone through your previous marriages, knowing that they didn't work out for various reasons, and then coming into this one and being together for 20 years and having to maintain not just you know the daily life of marriage and the business of marriage, but also the passion and the intimacy of marriage. How how do you do that when so many people that

we probably talk to every day, that that intimacy part, the passion starts to decline.

Yeah.

I think that also comes down to the bit of being able to talk to each other without, you know, panicking or feeling defensive is being able to talk about you know what you want sexually and what turns you on, what doesn't, and having those honest conversations. So if you know you don't like something, you don't like something, and if you want to explore different areas, you know, without getting into

details of our sex life, which I don't really want to talk about. But but but to keep that passion alive is to first of all make the other one feel loved and cherished, which Bruce certainly does with me. and like on a on a daily basis, like you know, whether it's a look or a touch or or you know, we always say, I love you, or give each other a good morning kiss or and a good night kiss.

And you know what's in in between. There's a lot of touching and like doing dishes or leaving the house. I'll never leave without saying goodbye to him and kissing him goodbye. But other than that is being able to talk to each other honestly about what you want, what you don't want, what you like, what you don't like, what what feels good, you know, what doesn't feel good.

And you know, if you want to look at other areas, if you want to explore different sexual things with each other, if you don't, what makes you feel comfortable? And the other person being willing to hear that.

Which I will say over the years, I think at least I'll speaking for myself, I think I've gotten more comfortable with that over the decades we've been together. Yeah. That's a developmental process. And it is it is hugely about well, the the the paradox. It's about feeling safe enough to do that, but also feeling like you're willing to take a risk. And the risk is

Especially in the sexual domain, but in any domain, the risk really in any domain. You know, simply to say something like, I think I'd like to try a different line of work or I think I'd like to try living somewhere else together or whatever. That's a scary thing to say to your partner when you think they may look at you and say, Are you kidding me? Or well, certainly in the sexual domain, especially, you're weird for even thinking that. And you know, I think one of the things that we benefited from, among other things, is doing our podcast.

Because we've interviewed so many people, including lots of sex therapists, and have heard so many things and I think learned not to freak out about pretty much any of it.

Pretty much.

That it just it just it's opened up a lot of doors in terms of just being able to talk about stuff. You know, you know, one of them, fantasies I think is a really good example of that. We've interviewed several people who've talked a lot about the role of sexual fantasies in in a couple's life and how how interesting and sometimes scary as hell that can be.

Absolutely. It's usually things that we

And

I did sorry, I was gonna say if w if it not for the fact that we were doing this podcast, I probably wouldn't have started writing erotica. You know that that like never even occurred to me. but doing the podcast and talking to all these sex therapists and tantric therapists and just therapists and hearing about couples problems in in the bedroom and and the role of fantasy like Bruce was talking about, you know, keeping things spicy and you know

bringing the erotica in. that was kind of like what was my, you know, push off.

And and I I will note getting close to the getting close to the edge of what I'm willing to talk about or not, which is to s simply to say you write about a lot of stuff that we don't do.

Yeah.

We don't really want to do, but it's still sexy as hell that you write about that stuff. You know, and that's that's kind of the the role of fantasy a lot, isn't there's all kinds of fantasies somebody wouldn't actually want to really enact, but the element of of fantasizing about it can be really spicy.

It makes their body come alive.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Especially, you know, I want to ask you more about how you see the paradox, the s the safety versus the sparkle. but I imagine fantasy is a way to create spark or a passion without having to do something that is inherently something you don't want to do or unsafe because

the imaginative process of it life creates life inside of you.

Yeah. Yeah, very much. And of course, that's all contingent on being willing to do that because it's scary even to bring it up for many people. I certainly encounter this a lot in my practice with couples where, you know, however long they've been together, and I and you know, it's it's often people who obviously love each other and obviously, you know, they don't have any obvious logical deal breakers. That's one of my favorite distinctions between deal breakers and growing pains.

And I I define deal breakers very narrowly. Deal breakers are things that no, it doesn't it it has nothing to do with severity. You can have ho very severe problems that are nevertheless growing pains. Sure. Or you can have problems that don't initially seem so severe, but turn out, know, classic example, I want to have kids and you don't, or vice versa. And it's amazing to me how many couples I will work with where they've been together for five years or something and come and then bump into that problem.

You know, often it's like, well, one of them was a little bit equivocal about it, they weren't sure. And then come to find out they've kind of landed in the opposite place of the other person. Those are simply incompatible. And that's really hard for people who love each other and generally get along. That's what I mean by deal breakers. But but lots of couples who don't have any deal breakers, they're they're foundering on that place of feeling dead because it's just too scary to do things like we were talking about. Too scary to

To talk about even to let yourself know what fantasies you might be thinking. You know, to let yourself be turned on in ways that you're not sure is okay. that's a scary thing.

people have a really hard time talking about sex. They feel really embarrassed. And I'll I'll admit I'm somewhere on that spectrum myself. And it's it's hard because sex has always been something that we've kind of subverted in our culture. And I know one of the the trainings on sex and sexuality that I've done in my past, when we're working on sex, we have to be able to talk about it like

this pen, like this is a cap and it's black you know, it it writes in a certain way and it looks a certain way. We have to be able to be as comfortable talking about sex as this pen in order for us to explore these risky pieces of our life and our relationship.

Yeah, I was in a training, I think a couple of years ago now. it was on a a Zoom training where there was like probably a couple hundred therapists in the room. It was a couples therapy training. And the trainer did a poll and said, How many of you will bring up sex with a couple in the first session or second session, something like that? And I'm sitting there thinking, well, yeah, obviously, right? That you you're gonna ask about that in in the course of other stuff. It was about 30%.

Twenty five percent? It was it was a surprisingly small number. Lots of people said, no, I'll wait for them to bring it up. You know, whereas you ask about anything else. But often couples need us to bring it up if they're not again, it's often really well, I've no I've seen it happen so many times, I'll ask about it, just routinely ask about it, and come to discover that the stuff they were first presenting really is about the sexual sexual issues, which of course is tied into intimacy way more generally.

Sure. Yeah, if you're not willing to ask about it, they might get the impression that it's not okay to talk about it.

Yes. And a lot of those therapists who aren't comfortable, as you were saying, you have to be comfortable, right? They'll pick that up. They'll see that. You know, if it's like, ooh, you know, the therapist seems a little iffy about that, so we we just won't go there. that

Also not just sexual intimacy, but other things that couples tend to sweep under the rug because it's going to be a point of contention. And then, well, that's when they get to your office or your office because they reach a boiling point where they can talk about it because it's just too damn scary.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, often one person ends up having much lower desire through that process. And then the other person is really missing the intimacy and the sex. And then it becomes about we are or aren't having sex as opposed to how do we create safety around sex so that it becomes a natural part of our relationship.

Yeah, that's a I I just had a session the other day with a couple I just met. and I see this pattern so often and you you may see this too. And it it it's it has a per a characteristic this particular one is a characteristic gendered pattern, where you know the the the woman is saying what the woman says and the man says what the man says. It's the one where a couple has had intimacy issues more generally and for whatever reason. And so I this particular couple was saying the guy was saying, Well, I

I think she was telling the story. He wanted to cuddle with me, but I knew all he wanted was sex. And that's such a turn-off. All he wants is sex. And the guy is thinking, no, no, no. I genuinely want the intimacy. And he's he lies to himself and her and says, no, no, I'm fine if we don't have sex. Well, he's lying to himself and to her. At least he's lying to himself too, you know. Because no, he also wants the sex. You know, and here's a gross generality. Men want, men use sex to be intimate.

Genuinely intimate. It's not just about the sex, but sex is how we get there. Women need to feel not to mansplain to the women in the conversation. Go ahead. Women need to feel intimate to want to have sex. There are lots of exceptions to that in both cases, but in general, that's often how it is. So that phenomenon of a woman saying all he wants is sex and that's a turn-off is so common. And yet if they can you know, with the my conversation with that couple is sort of interesting, opening up the possibility that

She could feel like, no, he actually wants intimacy and sex. And he will be disappointed if I say no to sex. And his job, of course, is not to be a jerk about that. And her job is to be compassionate about that, to recognize, and and and it's it's so interesting too, because almost always, I'll I'll I will note, well, it's it's probably a good thing for your relationship that he desires you, right? And she will almost always say, Yeah, no, that's good. I I like that he wants me sexually.

But I don't want it to be only about sex. And so it's this double bind for both of them. And when she could say, wait a minute, what if it's okay that I disappoint him? Because she shouldn't have sex if she doesn't want to, right? Nobody should do that. Right. You get to consent's important. You get to say no, you know? You really get to say no. But you should know when you do that, it's okay that you're disappointing him. Not because you're being nasty, but because you don't feel like having sex and he wants it and he's going to be disappointed. He's got to be not a jerk about being disappointed, be compassionate about it.

But also be clear that, well, bummer, I kind of was hoping, you know. And if she can be compassionate about that, they're fine. And what follows from that is fascinating because sometimes what that means is he just learns how to take care of himself or isn't a he basically his job is don't be a jerk, be be nice, you know, be genuinely supportive of that. Her job is to be compassionate. Well, sometimes what that will lead her to do is say, Well, I wasn't really in the mood, but I can help you, you know.

You know, it a little a little mercy sex doesn't have to be the end of the world. She doesn't have to feel like she's she's compromising her integrity. She might feel like doing a nice thing. Or she may not. It's fine. And his job is to be fine with that and be genuinely, you know, if that's what she does, be genuinely gracious and and gr and you know, express gratitude. And so, you know, when when they can talk about that stuff without panicking, that difference, when they can accept that difference as

not a bug of evolution, but a feature. Because that difference is the sexy difference. That same difference is the stuff that's that is attractive.

Yeah, I think that's really important. Yeah. Creating that safety to be disappointed. It's part of the human experience to have disappointment. Yes. And another place that I go in that moment is if we're saying no to the physicality of sex, then we need to pivot and say yes to intimacy and connection in a more emotional way. And that could be cuddling or hand hold holding or, know,

In the EFT world, Sue Johnson's favorite example of like couch coco where you make hot cocoa and you decide if you're gonna sit next to each other on the couch or across from each other and have a conversation, like what level of intimacy is comfortable in that moment. But you're never just saying like, I disappointed you sorry, or you disappointed me and ping away. You pivot to a different kind of connection.

Yes. And so often what people do rather than that is they just shut down.

Yeah.

So you know, she shuts down and she's angry, he shuts down and he's feeling rejected and he and sometimes he's a jerk about it, which of course just reinforces it. And and it it it's interesting because, you know, as as a guy myself, I'm I am more focusing on the guy not being a jerk. Sure. Because I don't feel qualified

to to advise women as much as I feel qualified to advise men, you know. And I'm I try to be careful about advising anybody. But, you know, that it just feels like now our job as men is like, no, we really gotta we really gotta back up and and understand and say, no, if you want if you want this person you're with to actually be a woman and act like a woman, which is the part you like, you need to accept that and honor it and even be grateful for it.

I think there's a lot of cultural bias and standards around what women are expected to do that, you know, it's okay to be a little bit more directive towards the men in these, you know, heteronormative relationships because there have been generations and generations of messages for women.

Around their body being a commodity or they have to give their body to their husband. And even if in today's world that's not something that we're necessarily saying out loud, there is still a connotation of that.

What what's your observation of that, Judy?

Well, it's funny because we've been re watching old madmen episodes. I don't know if you're familiar with that series.

I've I've heard of it, I haven't watched it.

Take place in the sixties and you know

Which

which by the way me more than you 'cause I'm our we're we're six years different. So that six years difference is quite different of the era of the madman. I was already a teenager at that point and you were still a a kid. And but it's f 'cause I remember that. I remember those days very well. I mean.

Yeah,

but even into the seventies and eighties and even till recently, it was like more like the Me Too movement kind of brought it out, is that women were just so objectified. And you know, I felt that when I was starting out in my career, it was, you know, I started as an in it working in an office and I was, my girl will call you, I'll get the girl to do this and like the girl will bring you coffee and it was it it was that whole attitude. And that, you know, totally has it hasn't totally changed yet. It's certainly come along.

Experienced that.

Sure. Mm-hmm.

After I got my doctorate, I was working in a VA and the primary care doctor said, Hey, this is Dr. So and so, Doctor So and so and Ms. Orlick.

well, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So you know, old habits die hard.

Yeah,

and and indeed, so I was kind of explaining to the guy, you know, you shouldn't be surprised that women tend to be sensitive about that.

Sure.

Of course. And then the irony is, and and it's funny, she was pointing this out. The irony is that very sensitivity made her much less flexible. You know, even in conversations, they were describing situations where

You know, they just had a difference of opinion about something, which any two humans are apt to do. And she was just so frustrated because his approach, like many of us guys, right, was to just assume he's right and she has to prove herself. And she was just so pissed at having to do that all the time that she would find, she said herself, she would find sometimes it's like, I know he's right, but I can't go there, you know, I can't admit it.

I can relate to that because you know when I I was having this conversation with Bruce just yesterday, actually. because in my first marriage, see, I didn't know that I could have the intimacy because you know, if my husband wanted to cuddle with me, it it immediately said, he wants sex. And if I wasn't in the mood that night, it was like you know, kind of like, you know, don't. so then he gets angry and pissed off. It's like

I I didn't know what he wanted because I wasn't I don't know trained enough or to to know to ask that because it was like like an all or nothing proposition in my world. And you know, I things have changed a lot. As I said with Bruce, so I know if he's cuddling with me, I don't know if it's gonna lead to sex or not. It might, it might not, but it's just nice to cuddle. And if I say, you know, it's not gonna happen tonight, that type of thing.

And he's he's like he's fine with that and you know, just wants to cuddle and you know, we'll often just cuddle before we go to sleep anyway at any night and sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. But you know, there are those nights when it's just nice to have that intimacy of holding each other and and you know, I and having that

Absolutely

Yeah, and it's it's the both end stuff that is so crucial. Yeah, no, I know you didn't care.

Yeah. Yeah, but I didn't know that. I didn't know you could do that.

And that's that's sort of what that woman and the couple I was working with the other day was pointing out. She and these are two and virtually everybody I work with, they're all intelligent. I mean I see them. These are two very intelligent people.

But

but we don't teach sexual intelligence.

We don't and and we don't and yeah, I don't know. I tend to think a lot of his maturity. You just you kind of have to learn this by bumping into it. But she was it was just that she was recognizing her own the effect on her was to turn her into totally understandably, was to turn her into someone that was bringing out his being a jerk. And I'm not blaming her for his being a jerk, but it was interesting that the effect was to make him more of a jerk. And the

The context was, this was a a second session with this couple. The context was that after the first session, they came into the second session and both of them are saying the other one's a lot nicer. And of course in effect they're both saying, Well, I'm nicer because they're nicer.

Well, if she feels like she has to protect herself, then and kind of the subtext of what I heard you say earlier is like if I give an inch, he'll take a mile. Yes. Then the rigidity has to be there throughout the roles in the relationship. Otherwise, like it feels like all the power gets taken away.

Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah.

And it just if of course that's a vicious cycle. It just keeps reinforcing each of their worst fears. And so she was saying in this session, she was surprised, she said, how how much nicer he got so quickly. Actually that wasn't this the surprise. The surprise was she was surprised at her feelings of affection. She didn't think they'd come back so quickly. But all of a sudden she's starting to feel like, yeah. And in fact, I knew there was a reason I love this guy. You know.

Yeah no.

I

she could start to feel it again.

And in a long-term relationship, y the relationship and people's bodies go through so much change that there's just so many different seasons of a sexual relationship, right? There's pre-kids, there's post kids, there's while the kids are growing up, there's hormonal changes, there's physical aches and pains that may happen as we get older. There's so

Yeah.

Sorry.

There's just so much that can happen that when your framework is our sex life has to be the same as it was, then you're always going to be set up for disappointment. There may be seasons of life where you're not having sex at all. And there may be seasons of life where you're having sex a lot.

Yeah. I you know, I'm I'm remembering when you're saying that, I'm remembering an interview we did earlier on in our podcast. We've been doing it for over six years now. And I think in the first year, we interviewed this friends of ours, this lovely couple who've both since passed on. But he was at the time we interviewed him. Yeah, late 90s, and she was in her late 80s. And they they had such an erotic spark between them.

And it seemed I don't know how much detail we got to. It seemed pretty clear they weren't having what you'd call sex anymore, but they were ha it they might as well have been, 'cause they were having the memory of it. You know, they were having this erotic charge. They so clearly were delighted with each other's existence. It was really sweet.

I mean the two of them lit up anytime they were in each other's presence. And it was to see.

the dream, isn't it?

Yeah, it

was really neat. It's something to aspire to, you know.

Absolutely.

For sure. Judy, what has it been like for you to be married to a psychologist, particularly one who specializes couples therapy? Does it ever seem like your relationship becomes the work?

Never, never, never. No. Being like like I said, you know, pick the right person. It it's it's been you know, like people say, well we've had these ups and downs and it's hard, marriages work, and it's like I'm waiting to see when the work part is coming because it's just been so easy, easy to be with Bruce. like I said, he he's just very kind and caring and listens to me. there there hasn't ever been a power struggle like

you know, I I need to be right, he needs to be. There's there is none of that. It's just been a wonderful I I just I just feel so blessed and so happy that I that I found this man. And you know, he's just perfect for me.

So you see it as as I'm I think I'm quoting David Sideris, who said, like most of my friends, so and so is a bad judge of character.

It's like, well, it do it it must be but because you you can hear Judy talking as if I have no flaws. She's so good. It's funny. You know, one of the things I talk about is we did a podcast on this actually, a couple of podcasts on this. we were once gonna do a podcast and our guest had an emergency and didn't show up. We're sitting there thinking, well, we want to put out a podcast this week, so what do we do? And I said, I know. Let's talk about the one relationship skill that solves all problems.

Not too grandiose, right? And Judy's looking at me like, really? you know, but she's a good sport, as you can tell. She went along. So what is this great relationship skill? It is the ability to be mildly or moderately annoyed.

I like it.

Yeah. And I always which which is to say not freak out. You know, it's also saying that's annoying, you know. I always love to point out Judy requires that skill way more than I do because I'm so much more annoying. That's true. So so that's that see she's saying that's true. And so that that that love those lovely things you said about me. Yeah, but I So she has this amazingly wonderful selective memory that all the times I'm annoying, she just seems to flush out of her memory, which is I so benefit from.

Well, you know, because he his good qualities so outweigh anything else.

But

see, there's the stuff to outweigh, right? It's there.

Because I'm just so grateful that he's in my life that it it like little things don't bother me, you know. If he's if he's like a slob

Here we come.

no like which he's not. I'm I'm just say I'm just going over the top so like

Well I think that's just so important

I don't sweat the small stuff because the the big stuff is so much more important and the big stuff is really what counts.

Well, I think that's that general, you know, attitude of gratitude, that I think we both show. Mm-hmm. Again, has a lot to do with previous life. We're so grateful for who each other is and the fact I I just think of you as a a gift to me, you know. And I feel that you feel that way too. And that that's that phenomenon is really powerful. And so yeah, of course they're annoyances, but they just seem to amount to nothing.

Remember,

you know, why you married this person and all the good things that have come into your life because of him or or her. you know, let it go. Let it go. Like we can talk about it, but it's not like the biggest thing on the planet, you know. You don't have to get angry about it. You don't have to yell at the other person. You know, like he's never, you know, yelled at me. I've never yelled at him. Well, maybe once, but

It's all a work in progress.

Never

had a fight, you know, we talk about things. You know, we've sometimes gotten a little bit testy, but we can be annoyed.

Well we can we can be annoyed.

again, you much more than me because I'm so sh so much more annoying. So there were questions.

But

Well, I

think that's just such an important point. And I don't wanna set up listeners for failure thinking like it's not okay to have fights or if you're having fights with your partner, it doesn't mean it's a good relations, it means it's not a good relationship. Right. Like what it means is the two of you have kind of worked on your own stuff along the way so that you know how to sit with discomfort and you have a tolerance for that. So you don't jump in

And you don't jump down each other's throats and you don't dismiss each other. You've done the work to be present and have the capacity to hear the other person's hurts and perspective and needs without shutting down to them.

And I will also say being able to bring it up in a timely manner and not let it fester. Yes. So, you know, if you have this problem and it's going on for months, sometimes even years, and then all of a sudden you burst out with it. But that's, you know, one of the things that I've learned with being with Bruce is let's bring it up when it first happens or like when it second happens, or you know, don't don't let don't let it, you know, build up, build up.

build up until the pipe has to burst because it has nowhere to go.

Well, and of course, that's often a symptom of people discovering that it isn't safe or feels unsafe to bring something up because it goes so badly. And that again becomes this sort of nasty cycle that just reinforces the worst fears people have. And that's that's my, you know, my the notion of the passion paradox is all about that idea. I I I give it a dramatic name, the death spiral for passion, you know. When you stop risking it.

Because it hasn't gone well. And that just reinforces it and it gets worse and worse. And because intimacy is every bit as much a need as stability is, at least in my lexicon of things, then it becomes destabilizing. Those are the ones where people blow up. You know, it's there's stuff sitting there that they haven't touched and it just becomes a you know a ticking time bomb. Or those are the ones where somebody becomes vulnerable to an affair. not the only reason people have affairs, but it's one of the biggies.

Or those are the times when all of a sudden somebody blindsides the other by saying, I'm out of here and you know the partner didn't even real doesn't even realize it. That's all symptoms of lack of intimacy.

And that's also some d something important that you have to be able to be vulnerable with each other. Yeah. and be able to tell like, you know, Bruce and I do a lot of stuff together. And one of the things we do is we write songs together and we're working on this one song now. And you know, I'm I'm all and and I'm working on my new book that and I'm always not sure at what point I should show it to him because

You know, you're afraid is he gonna hate it? And and there have been times when you haven't liked stuff and then I have to be able to hear that without taking it personally. yeah. but what you really liked it and I was like

I really like it. But you're very open. You're very I mean, you know, you're open to whatever I have to say. You know, the key there, I think, is you have enough confidence in yourself. Just because I have an opinion about something doesn't make it right. True. And so and I and I I think it's useful that I know that too. I'm not claiming otherwise. And so

But I respect

your opinion.

Yeah,

exactly. You can respect it without being threatened by it. Right. So you can do it do what you like with it and then we can actually be genuinely helpful. And you offer me similar things on music that I write and stuff like that. So

So, know, there's there's this concept of novelty being the spark of passion and then kind of mundane being the thing that loses passion. Esther Perell has talked a lot about that in her work. What I think I'm hearing from you is more the spark is kept alive by creating a space of vulnerability and safety where you can

can do things that maybe are novel but maybe also not, where you're just allowing your this exploration to be really close to one another.

Yeah, you know, I think that notion of novelty, which again, yeah, people will say the the implication of calling it novelty is that, well, then that can't be true after a while in a long-term relationship. You've kind of used up the novelty. I don't think that's so when there is genuine intimacy, because we're changing all the time. Life is is dynamic and complex. So there's always new. And that you know, that's one thing's I've I've we've talked about before.

sexually otherwise, you know what I mean? It always feels new on some level when you're actually present with you, you know, when you're in an intimate space. know, when you're in that place of well, what Chicks and Mahali would call flow. You know, when you're in that place where you're present and honest with yourself and just in the moment, it's all new. Everything is new. You're you're you're not just experiencing each other. You're experiencing the whole universe at that moment. And so that I novelty's never a problem when you're in that place.

I think the the reason that gets the reason that tends to go away is because it feels unsafe. Because stability is so important. I'm not knocking stability. You know, especially when you build a life with someone. stability is hugely important. So the idea that we would, you know, hesitate before threatening that stability isn't that's not wrong either. You know, they're both needs.

Yeah. And passion can come from also seeing your partner passionate. So when you have a passion project like writing a book, no matter what the content of the book is, which sounds pretty

Hurt

that it's erotic.

have to say re reviewing her reviewing, you know, reviewing a a speech you've written is not nearly as fun as reviewing her rock now.

Fair enough.

But when your partner shares something with you that they're passionate about, if you play instruments and you're watching your partner play an instrument, or you're s hearing your partner talk about newest thing that they're learning in the couples' therapy world, right? And you're seeing them come alive as they're experiencing that, you can adopt that passion. And

Seeing them passionate about you can ignite passion.

Absolutely.

And if you've got the right person.

That's you know, that's the one. so how can I put this in in slightly elliptical terms? The the the short story of my first marriage is that both my ex and I have gone on to marry really wonderful women and we're both a lot happier. That's the you know. So if that's the situation, that doesn't work so well. You know what I mean? If you're if you're in if you're in a situation where you're like you're you're not compatible in some very deep way.

That phenomenon often just causes pain. You know, seeing someone else's passion if it's painful for you rather than exciting for you. So if you're with the right person, indeed to see you get excited is very exciting for me. And it's also incredibly exciting for me to see you get excited about me. Yeah, about my excitement, you know. It it feels and I've commented on that before, part of what works for us is that the parts of me that turn you on are the parts of me I like, not the parts I don't, you know.

And and I hope vice versa. So

Mm-hmm.

Also

seeing her accept the parts of you that you don't like as much is very comforting.

It is very comforting, yeah.

And you know, I and that's not to say that we have to like all parts of our partner, right? But accepting those parts that we don't like as part of the bigger package.

Yes. Yeah, and that's kind of gets back to that notion that a rather silly notion of, you know, being able to tolerate mild annoyance or moderate annoyance. because it's you know, and I I'll point that out and usually people will laugh when I say it, but I mean it in a serious way. The one thing I know about all of us is that we're all annoying. You know annoyed, right? We're human beings. We're gonna be annoying to other human beings. And I'm and I say that in a loving way, not in a cynical way. You I'm not cynical about other humans. I I do tend to be much more of an introvert than you are.

Judy's much more of an extrovert. I've had to learn over the years that when Judy Judy wants to go to a party, even with people she doesn't like, you know, she wants to go to a party. And I have learned over the years, my my first reaction, of course, is negative, but I've you I think I'm pretty good at not immediately saying it. You can tell it's happening. And you're pretty good at not panicking when you see that, because then I almost always change my mind. I am almost always glad I go. And then I'm exhausted.

That's

because I'm exactly the same. Yeah.

Yeah, it's the it's the introvert thing. It's like, no, we we benefit from, you know, interaction with others, but it tends to tire us out as opposed to you. It gives you energy, you know. So But you're very, you know, you're very understanding of that. So that, you know, you can kinda tell when I'm sorta done and you're usually very nice about that. Mm-hmm. Or I'll you Or you'll go without me.

With that.

Yeah. So as we're getting ready to close up today's episode, what would you want listeners to take with them?

Great question. Well, I mean, my go to answer of that excuse me, my go to answer of that is our seven word formula. Be kind, don't panic, and have faith. which of course I I've written whole books and we've done six years worth of podcasts sort of expanding on that notion. So it's not just seven words, but that would be something I would want to leave people with. I don't know, do you

And I would just add to that that just remember that if this partner that you've chosen and want to spend hopefully the rest of your life with, treat them like that. Treat them like that. Treat them the way you want to be treated and treat them like they are the most precious thing in the world to you. Yeah.

Well, thank you so much. So if people want to find you and they want to learn more about you or get things that you've written or produced, where can they do that?

So I will I'll mention my website, which also has a link to to your stuff as well. I like a couple of websites. One is my website, Bruce Chalmer.com. That's where they can find out about I've got some video courses I'm especially excited about. They can check that out and books I've written and stuff. our podcast website is C T N seven, C T-I-N-the number seven dot com, couples therapy in seven words. And there it also has a link there to Judy's

Laura Zilber is her her pen name, L A R I A Z Y L D E R. And that has a website, Lauriazilber.com. So any of those. And it's funny, r I will tell you briefly. Recently, Judy was you're not wearing your lapel pin. no, I just put it on. Judy was on for those l those of you and I don't know if you you know this, Rachel, about the NPR Sunday quiz on in the morning and that with Will Shorts. After twenty-six years of trying, Judy was twenty-eight years of trying, Judy was selected.

To be the the on air. And so they're interviewing their you know beforehand, they're saying, Well, what do you do? And she mentions that she writes biblical erotica and they edited out the name. They edited out her pen name, they edited out the name of the book. And yet, after that segment aired, all of a sudden there was a spike in sales of her book. Because people Googled Biblical Erotica, Judy Alexander, and up it came. So that's another way to find

And all those links will be in the show notes. Thank you. Well,

Great, thank you.

I really appreciate you both taking the time to be on coupled with. And I think that this was a really important topic for people in long-term relationships to hear and have this normalized and think about what's really important. And it's not about having a perfect relationship, but it's really about, I love what you said, Judy, cherishing each other treating each other like they're precious.

Well thank you, Rachel. This has been delightful.

Thank

you.