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When are you a leader?
Episode 33rd November 2022 • How to Take the Lead • Lee Griffith and Carrie-Ann Wade
00:00:00 00:31:03

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We explore when you are a leader from a few angles, including your perception versus the perception of others, if you ever switch off as a leader and how your home life might be influenced by your leadership role and vice versa:

  • 02:15  – is there a difference between management and leadership?
  • 05:33 – the role of organisations in leadership development
  • 09:39 – perceptions of when you are a leader
  • 17:04 – exploring feedback about your leadership
  • 19:24 – is leadership 24/7?
  • 28:40 – How to...

As always we share our top takeaways and in this episode we strongly recommend revisiting your purpose and why you want to be a leader, focus on developing your leadership brand (even if that feels a bit icky) and make sure you consider your own wellbeing. 

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Transcripts

Lee:

well, as a complete aside, I do know someone many, many, many years ago who

Lee:

did set objectives for his girlfriend.

Lee:

​ Hello and welcome to another

Lee:

How are you?

Lee:

This rainy afternoon,

Carrie-Ann:

Oh, it's proper miserable out there, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann:

I think the, the weather is, uh, is keeping tone with the

Carrie-Ann:

state of leadership at the moment.

Carrie-Ann:

That's what I think

Lee:

I also realize that we seem to start every episode

Lee:

with some form of weather check.

Lee:

So is that just the Britishness in us coming out?

Carrie-Ann:

The polite Britishness, weather cuing, just generally random

Carrie-Ann:

small talk before anything starts.

Carrie-Ann:

But yeah, it is miserable, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann:

And it's cold now it's proper coming into like that winter feeling.

Carrie-Ann:

So I'm hoping that the podcast offers people, some think good and juicy to

Carrie-Ann:

listen to whilst they're going into hibernation mode for the season.

Lee:

So today I wanted to explore, we, we've done episodes before about

Lee:

what is leadership and I kind of wanna re-look at it, but come at

Lee:

it from a slightly different angle.

Lee:

For me, leadership is a word that so often is interchanged with the word management.

Lee:

And I think particularly when you look at it from an organizational point of

Lee:

view, there's an expectation almost even in the language we use in this podcast,

Lee:

I'd say that the more senior you are, The more you are in a leadership position.

Lee:

And for me, I think there is a difference between being in a leadership

Lee:

position and the requirements and the accountabilities of you as a person.

Lee:

but I think that's different to demonstrating leadership.

Lee:

I don't think they're mutually exclusive terms, and I think we would all be

Lee:

able to reference leaders who actually are senior managers, and we also know

Lee:

leaders who aren't great managers.

Lee:

So I think there is a, A distinction and a separation.

Lee:

Yeah.

Lee:

So I want to explore today a bit more around that concept of leadership and

Lee:

the perceptions and realities, and I suppose to kick us off, get your

Lee:

sense on those connotations of when you think about leadership and being

Lee:

a leader, what that brings up for you?

Carrie-Ann:

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, that

Carrie-Ann:

difference between leadership and management, it's definitely there.

Carrie-Ann:

And I think my experience has been that you often see people who are technically

Carrie-Ann:

really capable in their role being pro promoted to management positions, but

Carrie-Ann:

that doesn't automatically mean that they'll be good people, managers, but also

Carrie-Ann:

managing people doesn't automatically, like you say, make you a good leader.

Carrie-Ann:

So for me, in terms of thinking about leadership, there's something about

Carrie-Ann:

mindset and approach and actually seeing yourself as a leader rather

Carrie-Ann:

than seeing yourself as someone who signs off annual leave, manages

Carrie-Ann:

sickness, sets tasks for the team.

Carrie-Ann:

I think there is a difference, and I think there is a role needed

Carrie-Ann:

in some of that management space, but absolutely agree with you.

Carrie-Ann:

And I think there's something for me in terms of like those connotations around

Carrie-Ann:

being a leader, I don't feel like you automatically get that through, the role

Carrie-Ann:

that you have, like that whole leadership, when you're in that leadership space,

Carrie-Ann:

it's not necessarily aligned to the seniority of the position that you are in.

Carrie-Ann:

Um, for me, I think it's definitely more about what actions you

Carrie-Ann:

demonstrate and what behaviors you demonstrate in that leadership space.

Carrie-Ann:

As a leader, I think there's something that, you've mentioned this already

Carrie-Ann:

around responsibility and accountability.

Carrie-Ann:

So I think when you step into that space as a leader, whether it's into

Carrie-Ann:

a more senior leadership position or whether you are being a leader in your

Carrie-Ann:

field or for a specific cause, that responsibility I think then comes with it.

Carrie-Ann:

So responsibility to role model to others.

Carrie-Ann:

I think connotations of being a leader, for me, it definitely, so

Carrie-Ann:

linked with your integrity, you know, are you acting with integrity?

Carrie-Ann:

Are you demonstrating your values?

Carrie-Ann:

Are you prepared to speak out on behalf of others and advocate for them?

Carrie-Ann:

You know, are you able to spearhead change?

Carrie-Ann:

So it feels like lots of those kind of words and descriptions fit for

Carrie-Ann:

me with the idea of being a leader.

Carrie-Ann:

I think one of the other things that comes to mind for me when I talk

Carrie-Ann:

about what it means to be a leader and what's associated with that is

Carrie-Ann:

also that awareness that others will be critical of you if they have a

Carrie-Ann:

different opinion and a different view.

Carrie-Ann:

And that you have to be prepared for the impacts of that.

Carrie-Ann:

And I sometimes think people who assume their position makes them a leader

Carrie-Ann:

sometimes perhaps haven't done that developmental work and that thinking about

Carrie-Ann:

what that means for them both personally and for the people they're leading.

Lee:

Do you think organizations have some responsibility for that?

Lee:

Because I think as they're pulling people up the hierarchy because of

Lee:

how they've perhaps managed their function, it, it may or may not be

Lee:

their people management skills, but maybe they're excelling in their area

Lee:

of expertise, they get pulled up.

Lee:

Then the expectation and the label of leadership comes into

Lee:

play, the more senior they get.

Lee:

But they don't necessarily get that school in around well, The difference

Lee:

when you step into a leadership space?

Carrie-Ann:

I absolutely agree and I see that a lot in organizations.

Carrie-Ann:

I think people, one, I don't think people often get their training and

Carrie-Ann:

development they need to become managers.

Carrie-Ann:

Back to that point of you might, you might be a really excellent accountant for

Carrie-Ann:

example, but that doesn't automatically mean you're gonna be a really good

Carrie-Ann:

manager of a team of other accountants.

Carrie-Ann:

And I think people almost shine and excel in their sphere of professional

Carrie-Ann:

knowledge and expertise, but often don't get that support when they then get

Carrie-Ann:

that promotion into a management role.

Carrie-Ann:

But I also think the development schemes and training and approach that is on offer

Carrie-Ann:

from some organizations don't help with that shift of mindset into the leadership

Carrie-Ann:

space because often people will then go, Oh, well I, I haven't got the skills

Carrie-Ann:

and I've been promoted to team manager, service manager, whatever, get put on a

Carrie-Ann:

management training course, which ends up being very much driven by processes

Carrie-Ann:

that you have to follow as a manager.

Carrie-Ann:

Do you know the right HR processes and policies?

Carrie-Ann:

If you have to deal with a difficult member of staff or a

Carrie-Ann:

performance issue, for example.

Carrie-Ann:

And again, that doesn't for me touch on that leadership space and thinking, So

Carrie-Ann:

I, I would absolutely agree organizations need to do more and my perception

Carrie-Ann:

is there are many organizations that maybe themselves don't understand

Carrie-Ann:

that difference to be able to offer the right development in that space.

Carrie-Ann:

I dunno if that's been your experience,

Lee:

I, I, I reflect on when I was working in one organization and

Lee:

we had a leadership development program, an internal one.

Lee:

And everyone of a certain tier and above were automatically included in

Lee:

that leadership development program.

Lee:

And we used to start the sessions.

Lee:

With the chief exec asking people put your hand up if you

Lee:

consider yourself to be a leader.

Lee:

And it was quite enlightening because actually less than half the room put

Lee:

their hand up and part of the work we did was, was around trying to shift

Lee:

that mindset from your responsibilities as you become a senior leader versus

Lee:

those management responsibilities.

Lee:

And we tried to measure that over time, I haven't got any hard.

Lee:

Fast measures.

Lee:

It did change.

Lee:

Some people did start to see themselves as that, but did we do enough?

Lee:

I, I think we still immediately labeled everyone as leader

Lee:

without them demonstrating their ability or accountability of that.

Carrie-Ann:

and I think back to your point about seniority, I guess there

Carrie-Ann:

is an expectation that once you reach a certain level within your career or your

Carrie-Ann:

organization, that there is that automatic shift into that leadership space.

Carrie-Ann:

But there will be people who are not in a senior position, but who would

Carrie-Ann:

consider themselves to be leaders in their organizations because they're experts in

Carrie-Ann:

their field or because they have a, a huge group of, of colleagues potentially that

Carrie-Ann:

look up to them for leadership even though they're not in a leadership position.

Carrie-Ann:

So I think it is all about perception, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann:

And that labeling and how you manage some of that, I, I think

Carrie-Ann:

that's quite interesting to explore.

Lee:

Mm.

Carrie-Ann:

Because it's not only your perception of yourself, so

Carrie-Ann:

I wonder how many people in that room who didn't perceive or did

Carrie-Ann:

perceive themselves as leaders.

Carrie-Ann:

If you ask the people they worked with, how many people would go,

Carrie-Ann:

Yes, I see them as a leader or not.

Carrie-Ann:

And I think that's sometimes more about people's behaviors, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann:

And how they operate in that space.

Carrie-Ann:

So

Lee:

Yeah.

Lee:

And Kind of bridges nicely into my next point, which was the fact that

Lee:

some people we know have that natural leadership ability within them.

Lee:

Um, they don't feel they need authority or seniority or however you want to, to badge

Lee:

it to lead whilst others feel like they've got to be given that by someone else to be

Lee:

able to show leadership and again, I know we are potentially confusing leadership

Lee:

and management, but I do think that's what you see is, is that permission to lead

Lee:

that some people feel they have to have.

Lee:

And I suppose it goes back to whether people themselves see themselves as

Lee:

needing to manage others in order to lead.

Lee:

And I think some of the difficulties can be if people perhaps don't have a natural

Lee:

management infrastructure around them, can they show themselves to be a leader?

Lee:

Or if people aren't in a senior position, do they just seem themselves

Lee:

as a team manager or head of team, and don't see themselves as a leader.

Lee:

So I wondered what your thoughts were on that.

Carrie-Ann:

I definitely agree.

Carrie-Ann:

It's about how you perceive yourself.

Carrie-Ann:

Um, in that space for sure.

Carrie-Ann:

And I also think it's something about how you act in that space as well.

Carrie-Ann:

So I think actually in healthcare, which is obviously a field, where

Carrie-Ann:

a lot of my experience comes from.

Carrie-Ann:

You do often come across clinicians at all different levels in, in their

Carrie-Ann:

kind of, Career journey and, and that hierarchy that you've talked about

Carrie-Ann:

who are definite leaders without having those senior positions.

Carrie-Ann:

Because what they're really good at is galvanizing groups of staff to

Carrie-Ann:

work together and to collaborate That, that they really demonstrate through

Carrie-Ann:

their actions and what they choose to be vocal about, that they are working

Carrie-Ann:

towards something that they perceive to be a really important cause.

Carrie-Ann:

You often find those sorts of people really active in that

Carrie-Ann:

space around lobbying for change or advocating for others.

Carrie-Ann:

So I think there are definitely people who are able to do that

Carrie-Ann:

without being given the authority of a particular title to do that.

Carrie-Ann:

But I think, I think people do struggle with that.

Carrie-Ann:

And I think there will be people who will think, I don't have the authority to act

Carrie-Ann:

as a leader because I'm not a, a manager.

Carrie-Ann:

Um, but I think it's, for me, it's about mindset and that desire to make

Carrie-Ann:

an impact and, and I would say, You know, it, it is easy to say cuz there'll

Carrie-Ann:

be all sorts of restrictions around how people operate in the workplace.

Carrie-Ann:

But there's a bit of me that feels like if you doubt you have the authority,

Carrie-Ann:

but you feel like you can make an impact in that leadership space, what's the

Carrie-Ann:

worst that that could happen for you?

Lee:

Mm.

Carrie-Ann:

for forgiveness, not seek permission sometimes, because

Carrie-Ann:

sometimes you know, there's not gonna be enough senior job titles

Carrie-Ann:

in an organization for everyone to.

Carrie-Ann:

Labeled as a leader through the hierarchy, but that doesn't mean

Carrie-Ann:

you can't be a leader without the job title, if that makes sense.

Lee:

Yeah.

Lee:

Yeah.

Lee:

So if you know someone is doubting their authority to lead or the

Lee:

perception of their ability to lead, what can they do about it?

Lee:

You know, what sets people apart who just naturally fall into that space and

Lee:

seem to make it work for them, versus those that perhaps feel like they need

Lee:

that, that permission or something?

Carrie-Ann:

I think in terms of people who don't naturally feel able to step

Carrie-Ann:

into that space for whatever reason, there's something for me about like

Carrie-Ann:

your support network and who you have around you who can help to influence

Carrie-Ann:

you and challenge your thinking and help to give you that confidence,

Carrie-Ann:

I guess, to step into that space.

Carrie-Ann:

I go back to that, but I mean, it's about being brave, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann:

It is about being brave enough to put yourself out there

Carrie-Ann:

and potentially take a risk.

Carrie-Ann:

So I guess it's also about looking at the opportunities that you have to influence

Carrie-Ann:

and to make an impact, as a leader in your organization, regardless of role.

Carrie-Ann:

And if there are smaller things you can do to start to make you feel more

Carrie-Ann:

comfortable operating in that space.

Carrie-Ann:

Because I think as we've already said leadership comes with a lot

Carrie-Ann:

of responsibility and you are gonna face challenges and you are

Carrie-Ann:

gonna face people who are gonna be critical of your view on things or

Carrie-Ann:

the way in which you want to operate.

Carrie-Ann:

So actually doing small, incremental things that probably feel less of a

Carrie-Ann:

huge risk, I think, help you get into that head space, if that makes sense.

Lee:

I would add to that people who are questioning their leadership

Lee:

ability or authority, I think that there are a few things to.

Lee:

I go back to your purpose.

Lee:

So why?

Lee:

Why actually, do you want to be seen as a leader?

Lee:

Is it that you want to be recognized as having a position of power or authority?

Lee:

Is it that you want to be seen like that because actually it's an important step

Lee:

in your career because you're viewing it in a seniority point of view, or

Lee:

is it because you actually just want

Lee:

be a really great manager, but you want to inspire people.

Lee:

You want to bring a bit extra to the role.

Lee:

So going back to your rationale, why is I think a really good starting point.

Lee:

And I always look to people like project managers or program directors because

Lee:

they're often leaders because they lead a project but don't often have teams.

Lee:

They've got to galvanize other people in other teams who have different

Lee:

reporting and accountability lines.

Lee:

And you can really tell the difference between successful program project

Lee:

leaders and the success of a project as opposed to those who perhaps maybe need

Lee:

to try and grab some authority and power.

Carrie-Ann:

And I, I think that is really interesting, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann:

Because for me, that feels like a, a potentially harder space to lead in when

Carrie-Ann:

actually you don't have that authority necessarily over the people that you're

Carrie-Ann:

trying to bring on a journey with you and get to deliver things with your

Carrie-Ann:

kind of oversight and your vision.

Carrie-Ann:

So I think that that does demonstrate to me people who

Carrie-Ann:

are successful in that space.

Carrie-Ann:

Definitely for me demonstrate really good and strong leadership skills.

Carrie-Ann:

But I, I'd really like your point about asking why do you want to be a leader?

Carrie-Ann:

I think that should, you know, each step of your own career journey, you should

Carrie-Ann:

be asking, why do I want to move into that next space and take that next step?

Carrie-Ann:

And obviously there will be people who are driven by power and wanting to have

Carrie-Ann:

that power and influence over others in terms of the hierarchy and the seniority,

Carrie-Ann:

that makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.

Carrie-Ann:

It's made me feel like I want it.

Carrie-Ann:

I'm itchy about that, cuz that doesn't sit comfortably with me.

Carrie-Ann:

I guess for me I think as well, I think it's.

Carrie-Ann:

Not easier for leaders, that's not the right word, but leaders who are doing

Carrie-Ann:

something because they're passionate about the cause or the impact that they can

Carrie-Ann:

have for other people, I think generally come tend to come across as more authentic

Carrie-Ann:

in that leadership space than people who are doing it for ego is probably

Carrie-Ann:

what I'm trying to say on that point.

Carrie-Ann:

But so I think that purpose and the why is a really good

Carrie-Ann:

question to be asking yourself.

Lee:

And I think also asking other people the why.

Lee:

So if you've had feedback, and I've seen this happen where chief

Lee:

exec or director says, you are in a leadership position, you need to be

Lee:

demonstrating better leadership, or you need to show up more as a leader.

Lee:

The, the really generic feedback term that, that people often get thrown at

Lee:

them a bit like, you need to be more strategic, what the F does that mean?

Lee:

. So being able to go to someone if you get that feedback and go can

Lee:

we make this a bit more tangible?

Lee:

What, what do you mean?

Lee:

What does that look like for you?

Lee:

What's the space I'm not filling that I need to?

Carrie-Ann:

How can I demonstrate that?

Carrie-Ann:

You want me to demonstrate something?

Carrie-Ann:

Tell me how, what is, Yeah, exactly.

Carrie-Ann:

What is it that you need to see from me that would make you feel confident

Carrie-Ann:

that I'm demonstrating what you need.

Carrie-Ann:

And, and then when you hear it, you have to question whether

Carrie-Ann:

you are comfortable with that.

Carrie-Ann:

Some of that feedback you might get might, might mean that you change your mind

Carrie-Ann:

about the why you want to be a leader in that particular space or organization.

Lee:

Or you might figure out that they've got no clue what they're doing

Lee:

in terms of leadership and actually that isn't the right fit for you anyway.

Lee:

A conversation that my husband and I had during series one, and I can't remember.

Lee:

What episode triggered it might have been the superpower one.

Lee:

He didn't listen to the whole series.

Lee:

It was the early episodes I forced him

Carrie-Ann:

Was he a fair weather listener?

Lee:

he was a

Carrie-Ann:

Fair

Carrie-Ann:

weather listener.

Carrie-Ann:

But at least he showed some support though

Lee:

Well, I think it's because you are of a half had listened

Lee:

and he felt like he needed to.

Lee:

Otherwise I wouldn't have let it

Carrie-Ann:

Again, I think that was on the fair weather.

Carrie-Ann:

I'm just trying to be a supportive partner front.

Carrie-Ann:

I'm, I'm not sure he could feedback, which his favorite episode was.

Lee:

Anyway, I say what to say, he did to demonstrate, said

Lee:

listening of a podcast episode.

Lee:

He and I got into quite hearty discussion about something.

Lee:

And it was the point that leadership isn't something that you just switch on and off.

Lee:

If you're a good leader then it's inherent to your character and you would

Lee:

be demonstrating the same traits when you are at home or out in company as

Lee:

you would when you're in the workplace.

Lee:

And it was a really interesting discussion because yes, that's true,

Lee:

but also I, I felt a bit like some elements of leadership would be

Lee:

really odd if you bought it home.

Carrie-Ann:

I'm gonna start performance Managing your husband.

Carrie-Ann:

This is excellent.

Lee:

Well, as a complete aside, I do know someone many, many, many years ago who

Lee:

did set objectives for his girlfriend.

Lee:

I'm

Carrie-Ann:

Oh, I don't even, do you know what?

Carrie-Ann:

I don't even know where to go for that.

Carrie-Ann:

I feel like that's like a bonus episode Waiting to happen.

Lee:

Suddenly your upper half starts giving this massive vision

Lee:

statement as you carves the roast on a Sunday, you know, maybe that's

Lee:

what you like in your household, but that wouldn't really be for me.

Lee:

It got me thinking about how different are you at work to at home.

Lee:

And is leadership something that you leave at the door in the office

Lee:

or do you bring it back with you?

Carrie-Ann:

Oh, I've got so much to say about this, Lee.

Carrie-Ann:

I, I do have friends who at New Year have a New Year's meal and bottle of

Carrie-Ann:

something lovely and they do a backward look of the year That's just gone.

Carrie-Ann:

In terms of what they feel has

Lee:

like their annual report.

Carrie-Ann:

Yeah, that what they feel has been really positive that's

Carrie-Ann:

happened for them in that year.

Carrie-Ann:

What they found really challenging as a couple, as a family, whatever.

Carrie-Ann:

And then they do a bit of a forward look.

Carrie-Ann:

Like what?

Carrie-Ann:

What are our aspirations for the year ahead?

Carrie-Ann:

Like, are there things we want to achieve?

Carrie-Ann:

Which I kind of quite like, but, But now you've said it's like an annual report.

Carrie-Ann:

I'm like, Oh no, that's good

Lee:

Well, my mind went to one new report when you first started to

Lee:

describe it, but then I thought, actually I do something similar.

Lee:

I'm not, with, not with David.

Lee:

God help.

Lee:

He would like, literally, he'd leave me if I started doing that.

Lee:

I do that like at the end, people journal, people like to set themselves personal

Lee:

cause I'm not against any of that.

Lee:

I suppose it's that forced.

Lee:

I, I suppose when he was talking about it, I had the whole hockey

Lee:

sticks situation vision in my head of really rallying the troops in the

Lee:

household and all kind of marching up the hills to the same goal and.

Carrie-Ann:

Yes.

Carrie-Ann:

So anyway, sorry.

Carrie-Ann:

I've dig, I've made just digress again a little bit there.

Carrie-Ann:

So, um, back to the question that you asked me.

Carrie-Ann:

I do, I do think there are people who, uh, maybe their traits and personality

Carrie-Ann:

type might naturally lend themselves to be more comfortable in that leadership space.

Carrie-Ann:

But I do think that you can learn to be a good leader and I guess key to

Carrie-Ann:

that is having that open mindset and wanting to learn and grow and develop.

Carrie-Ann:

So I definitely think that there's something there, and I think in terms

Carrie-Ann:

of that, I dunno, because I look at the introvert extrovert argument around that

Carrie-Ann:

one about you can say people are natural born leaders, but you know, we've had this

Carrie-Ann:

whole debate going on about how people expect extroverts to be better leaders.

Carrie-Ann:

But actually quite a lot of the evidence and research shows that introverts

Carrie-Ann:

make better leaders, but we still keep telling them to be more extrovert.

Carrie-Ann:

So you know that there's a whole piece around that in terms of whether.

Carrie-Ann:

Like natural ability versus nurture versus effort.

Carrie-Ann:

I don't know.

Carrie-Ann:

But back to the point I guess around that, the home and and work scenario, I think

Carrie-Ann:

I probably personally do demonstrate some things because they're just inherent in

Carrie-Ann:

me in terms of the way I act, in terms of when I'm in the home, in my home

Carrie-Ann:

environment, in my personal life, I still operate in a way, which is about the

Carrie-Ann:

fact that actually what motivates me is achieving things and having an impact.

Carrie-Ann:

So I'm looking for things to do in the home that make me feel

Carrie-Ann:

like I've achieved something.

Carrie-Ann:

I think I bring some creativity into that space, which I think

Carrie-Ann:

I do in the professional space.

Carrie-Ann:

I am still quite goals focused.

Carrie-Ann:

So I think there are some things that transcend between home and work life.

Carrie-Ann:

But

Lee:

Your transferable skills,

Carrie-Ann:

Yeah, let's talk about transferable skills, but the difference,

Carrie-Ann:

is what, what I feel is important to focus my energies and time on at home

Carrie-Ann:

versus at work, which will be different.

Carrie-Ann:

So maybe my approach to some of those things would be the same, but

Carrie-Ann:

actually, the subject matter would be very different And, and when I was

Carrie-Ann:

thinking about this before we started having this conversation, I thought

Carrie-Ann:

what was quite interesting for me to reflect on is that my partner and I are

Carrie-Ann:

both leaders in our workplace in very different fields and very different ways.

Carrie-Ann:

But what I do sometimes notice at home is that there are some weeks when

Carrie-Ann:

neither of us want to make a decision.

Carrie-Ann:

Neither of us wants to step up into that space to go, right,

Carrie-Ann:

this is what we're doing.

Carrie-Ann:

You know, It's not about any necessarily major things might

Carrie-Ann:

be like what to have for dinner.

Carrie-Ann:

What are we doing at the weekend?

Carrie-Ann:

Where are we going?

Carrie-Ann:

Who are we seeing?

Carrie-Ann:

I think.

Carrie-Ann:

Because both of us have done that all week long in our roles that we

Carrie-Ann:

get home and we're like, I just want someone else to make the decisions.

Carrie-Ann:

And then he's like, Well, I just want someone else to make the decisions too.

Carrie-Ann:

So we, we get into this little state sometimes of like, just

Carrie-Ann:

nothing happens because, because neither of us wanna take the lead.

Lee:

So this, this is one of my biggest issues and the biggest differences I

Lee:

think I've found between my work life and my home life is my indecisiveness.

Lee:

And I had this conversation with David the other day.

Lee:

because he was like, I don't understand, I think we were watching some TV show and

Lee:

he was like, Oh, you'd be really good at doing that cuz you'd be really decisive.

Lee:

He said, I don't understand why you're just not like that at home though.

Lee:

And I, and I reflected going, Yeah, I used to, I had no problems making

Lee:

decisions when I was at work.

Lee:

I'd be really clear, I'd have a process of elimination, I'd,

Lee:

maybe seek counsel, whatever.

Lee:

At home.

Lee:

I am so indecisive, chronically indecisive.

Lee:

Still, Um, even though I run my own business, if I talk about stuff in

Lee:

my business, I can make a decision and I've never thought of it.

Lee:

Maybe I'm tired of making decisions, but um, yeah, that's my biggest difference.

Carrie-Ann:

Having said that though, I do think that I definitely,

Carrie-Ann:

much more easily in my personal life than than did my partner.

Carrie-Ann:

It can easily step up into that decision making mode because then it gets to a

Carrie-Ann:

point where I'm like, Well, somebody has to make a decision, so I'm just gonna make

Carrie-Ann:

it because we can't carry on in this state of like nothing's actually progressing.

Carrie-Ann:

And I do think I'm a big picture ideas sort of person, and I think at home,

Carrie-Ann:

I know that's one of my strengths.

Carrie-Ann:

So I, I do a bit more of that in terms of, the big thinking about what, what we're

Carrie-Ann:

gonna commit to next, what we're doing.

Carrie-Ann:

But then I know that I rely on my partner to do all the logical, practical

Carrie-Ann:

stuff to actually make it happen.

Carrie-Ann:

So that's another similarity, I guess, to how I operate in the,

Carrie-Ann:

in the workspace, um, as a leader.

Carrie-Ann:

So I, I think you can't, you can't undo some of it, but I, I agree with you.

Carrie-Ann:

I don't think you go home in leadership mode to like act a certain way.

Carrie-Ann:

I think there's natural things that come out cuz that's just part of your

Carrie-Ann:

personality and who you are and maybe your why, your leadership style is like it is.

Carrie-Ann:

But it situation dependent, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann:

I think.

Lee:

Yeah.

Lee:

But I have, I mean, you do see sometimes, and I think, I've been accused of this

Lee:

before, you've come back and you're using work speak in the home and it's

Lee:

like, I mean, we don't do corporate BS here, but you know, back in the day,

Lee:

I dabbled every now and then with it

Carrie-Ann:

How about No, I can't.

Carrie-Ann:

I can't tell you off Lee cause I did the same and my ex-partner and I used to work

Carrie-Ann:

together and that was just an absolute nightmare because you almost can avoid

Carrie-Ann:

having the corporate BS speak at home.

Carrie-Ann:

And we got to a point where we used, if we used to commute together, we used to

Carrie-Ann:

say by the time we get out of the car at home, we'd not allowed to talk about

Carrie-Ann:

work anymore because it is draining.

Carrie-Ann:

I think it does make you tired.

Carrie-Ann:

You do need that, that change.

Carrie-Ann:

And I think that's something that i've learnt over time is

Carrie-Ann:

to do that wellbeing stuff.

Carrie-Ann:

So I think for me, some of my home has to be about balance, wellbeing,

Carrie-Ann:

not maybe being so focused.

Carrie-Ann:

But I, I hope I bring some of that into my leadership space at work as well.

Carrie-Ann:

And then I guess at work, the planning, the focus to setting the direction,

Carrie-Ann:

the collaboration, the facilitation, I hope I bring some of that when

Carrie-Ann:

it's needed into the home space.

Carrie-Ann:

But it's just getting that right, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann:

Not.

Carrie-Ann:

Too much one way or the other.

Lee:

I know for me, the home thing that I bring into to work is that

Lee:

understanding other people's perspectives?

Lee:

I think my husband's definitely influenced me with that.

Lee:

I've would historically get quite hotheaded and be quick to judge on

Lee:

certain things or situations and um, I wouldn't say I'm completely cured,

Lee:

but he has definitely mellowed me out and made me think more broadly about

Lee:

different perspectives and made me challenge my own thinking and take

Lee:

a step back sometimes before I act.

Lee:

And, and all of that, which I know absolutely benefited me in my late

Lee:

years in my corporate role because I think I handled situations maybe

Lee:

through experience of ha not handling them the best way to begin with.

Lee:

But also his influence on me and thinking how would he

Lee:

have approached it has helped.

Lee:

Um, I dunno what I've influenced on him though, if that, that's

Lee:

a whole other conversation

Carrie-Ann:

That's, that's another bonus episode of the podcast right there,

Lee:

So to wrap up with our how-to's, how do you start to hone in, I

Lee:

suppose, of on who you are as a leader and, and when and how you lead?

Carrie-Ann:

I think, in terms of how tos for me, that point you made about

Carrie-Ann:

your why, is a really important one.

Carrie-Ann:

I think if you are doubting that you have authority, but you have the

Carrie-Ann:

desire to want to make an impact, then something's calling you to

Carrie-Ann:

step into that leadership space.

Carrie-Ann:

And I think my thinking there would be seek forgiveness, not permission.

Carrie-Ann:

Just do it.

Carrie-Ann:

Just step up and see what happens.

Carrie-Ann:

Um, and I think just reflecting on the last bit of the conversation, if you

Carrie-Ann:

act with integrity and authenticity in the workplace, then you are bringing

Carrie-Ann:

some of your home self and, and vice versa to, to both of those roles.

Carrie-Ann:

But there is something for me about learning to switch off a bit because I

Carrie-Ann:

think sometimes when you are a leader, you do think it's 24 7 and absolutely, you

Carrie-Ann:

know, you're having to role model being a good person, not even a good leader

Carrie-Ann:

all the time because the eyes are on you.

Carrie-Ann:

But it's, it is important, I think, to be able to switch off mostly for

Carrie-Ann:

your own wellbeing and so you don't burn out, but also to role model

Carrie-Ann:

some good practice to other people.

Lee:

Well, I can't really top that, so my how to would be more around

Lee:

that building your leadership brand.

Lee:

We did an episode about that in series one.

Lee:

I know that can feel really icky for some people, but the fact is

Lee:

we all have a brand and a personal brand, and this is about stepping

Lee:

into that leadership brand space.

Lee:

So for me it's about getting some intentionality about what makes you, you