Jennifer Smith, Visa, Director of Strategic Initiatives and Accessibility
Jen Smith has worked with accessibility at J.P Morgan Chase, Microsoft, and now at Visa as Director of Strategic Initiatives and Accessibility. She talks about the importance of working with colleagues at different experience levels and backgrounds. She also describes the need in accessibility for better ways to present data.
Mentioned in this episode:
Info about Accessibility at Blink
- All right, well here we go.
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:Where I get another chance to speak
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:with another accessibility practitioner,
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:and today I'm pleased to be speaking
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:with Jen Smith. Hello, Jen, how are you?
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:- I'm doing great, Joe. How are you?
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:- I'm good. I am in my
home office on Bhan Island,
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:which is near blinks
headquarters office in Seattle.
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:Where are you talking to us from?
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:- I am also in Seattle.
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:Near, near you, Joe
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:and I used to formally live on Baan, so
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:I am not too far away from
where you currently are.
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:- Well, I, it, it, it
is good to see you again
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:and yeah, I have known you from, from
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:some past activities, so
it's good to have this chance
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:to talk about your professional work since
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:the last time we met up.
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:But, you know, a good place
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:to start would be if you could
just tell us a little bit
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:about what you're currently involved with.
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:- Yeah, I currently work at Visa.
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:I'm a director there
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:and my title is Director
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:of Strategic Initiatives in Accessibility.
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:We're housed in the design
part of the organization,
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:which I truly love.
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:And day to day what that means is I get
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:to operationalize
accessibility for our products
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:when they're working with clients.
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:A lot of our banking clients
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:and our banking clients
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:who take accessibility very seriously
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:and want these products
to be accessible yesterday
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:and their, and our products are maybe kind
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:of like had their own roadmap,
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:but maybe the roadmap was a
little bit longer than our
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:clients might've liked
to have heard about.
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:And maybe they were transitioning
from what CAG 2.0 to 2.1
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:and had a little bit, you
know, some bumps in the road.
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:And so my team
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:and I of accessibility
practitioners get in there
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:and help them understand where
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:to focus their efforts and energy.
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:Operationally, we work
with developers, designers,
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:leaders, PMs, you name it,
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:we've got the expertise across the board
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:to help them understand
where to focus their energy
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:and efforts to make the most
momentum the most quickly
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:to get from point A to point
B across the finish line.
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:So it's a really, really fun job to think
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:through organizational
change and accessibility,
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:and not always just the
compliance end of the spectrum,
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:but really think through
what's the best for our like
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:B2B business business customers,
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:but also what's impacting
them, their customers,
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:their B2C customers on the other side.
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:- Well you're, you're in
one of those companies
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:where I think just about
everyone is familiar with it
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:most probably as something
that that, you know, we've act
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:actively worked with on a consumer basis.
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:But maybe you could talk a
little bit more, you know, beyond
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:what I might know is, is
somebody using a, a credit card
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:and like what are the
accessibility touch points
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:that you get into, you know,
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:throughout your organization? Yeah,
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:- It really, I, I think
you can run the gamut
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:because I think of people
think of Visa, you know,
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:our brand is pretty ubiquitous
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:and they think of us on their credit card,
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:but they don't realize
how many applications
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:that we truly build for our clients
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:across the board as far as
payments and tokenization
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:and different things that enable payments
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:to happen behind the scenes.
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:And not only physical cards,
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:but just anything that makes
digital payments happen
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:and how much we think
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:through not only like actual
the payment space in general
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:cards, but just
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:like happen across end-to-end merchants.
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:If you're running a business,
if you're making a payment,
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:anything in that space
Visa can be involved in
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:and how much, when we
are talking like we have,
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:we wanna make payments
happen where the best way
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:to be paid ev for everyone everywhere.
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:And so we have those
that everyone in there
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:and we truly mean it.
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:So it's, it's one of those
things that it's really fun to be
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:involved in that and think through all
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:of those different facets
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:and being in the design end of the company
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:where we get to talk about
that user experience part of
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:this, the, the process and
not just the compliance
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:and the legal end of the spectrum
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:and always like risk is
definitely a part of it,
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:but not always just be the stick end
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:of the accessibility risk spectrum,
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:but also the user experience
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:and of, of the conversation
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:that we often get roped into when we're
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:talking about accessibility.
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:- Yeah, well it's very
interesting to, you know, get some
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:of the background
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:and the depth that many of
us probably aren't aware of.
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:Well, one of the things I like
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:to do in this program
is find out how people
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:found their way into working
on this kind of thing.
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:So what was it for you where, you know,
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:accessibility was something
you first learned about
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:and then I know you've been
working on it for a while now.
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:How did you get into it professionally?
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:- Yeah, the first, the first job I had
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:where it was a formal part
of my job, I was in, I worked
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:for an agency in the state of Oklahoma
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:and we were in the education industry.
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:It was a guarantor for higher education
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:and we took care of student loans.
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:And so we had to be
section 5 0 8 compliant.
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:I had zero tools, zero budget, zero people
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:to train me, and I had
a foundation in HTML,
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:I had a journalism
degree, I was the designer
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:and I was using Dream Waiver.
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:So this is back in the two thousands.
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:And I just had like a checklist
from the federal government
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:and a heart full of good intentions.
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:And I was doing, following the checklist
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:and working my way through
it and reading blogs
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:and information full of, I think
all of these industry names
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:that we know, we all know so well,
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:whether it's hate on
Pickering or Carl Groves
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:or you know, oh my gosh, of
course now that I'm, I'm,
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:you know, lady fine
gold, I mean, you know,
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:whether it's technical
expertise, design expertise,
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:developer expertise,
like all of these people
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:who are willing to share
what they had been through,
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:what they tried, what
worked and what didn't work
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:and just publicly share it online.
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:You would just go and you would
just soak it up as a sponge
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:and like, okay, let me try this.
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:Let me see what works, what doesn't work,
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:and you would just try it
out and hope for the best
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:and then try again and iterate.
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:And it was that progress over perfection
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:like my friend Meryl Evans
likes to say and just see
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:and learn and grow and learn and grow.
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:And thankfully back then things
weren't quite as complicated
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:as they're now with all of
the frameworks that we have.
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:And you would just try and experiment.
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:And also before then I had seen the power
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:of digital technology
in the lives of people
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:with disabilities
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:and knew that it could
be something that created
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:equality and access for people
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:and agency for people
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:with disabilities when
they were often shut
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:out from conversations.
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:And for me that was important in a job
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:and why I wanted to have
that be not a facet of a job,
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:but once I got hooked into
doing it as part of my job,
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:why I wanted it to be a sole feature
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:of my job in my career moving
forward, I had had a neighbor
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:who was blind when I was in college.
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:I had, when I first graduated
with my journalism degree,
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:I worked for an NPR affiliate
radio station in Oklahoma.
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:And we had a volunteer who had an injury
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:and he had a disability,
a lifelong disability.
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:And I'd seen with his injury again, how
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:access and how disability
like had changed his life
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:and how he was treated,
whether he had agency
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:to do things on his own
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:and how people treated him
in the real world without
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:that agency and what a
difference that made.
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:And I wanted to be part of the change
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:and part of giving people
more of that agency.
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:So once I got that taste at
that state agency, I'm like,
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:this, this is for me, what makes my job
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:of working on these ones and zeros
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:and building these websites
different than, you know,
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:designing another brochure
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:and publishing this Dreamweaver
page over and over and over.
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:And I feel like having
the HTML background,
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:the journalism background
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:and being able to translate
from technical to design
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:and to people who didn't
understand the technical,
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:you know, there's those parallels
that you have about like,
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:why does information
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:and relationships matter from
the back end to the front end?
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:I could explain that to people
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:and they, they could kind of
understand why it mattered
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:and why we needed to do that.
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:And it was, it was infectious to me.
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:So that's where I got started.
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:And then I always wanted it to be part
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:of my job moving forward and I was more
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:or less able to, to kind of make
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:that happen from the two thousands to now.
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:- And you, yeah, you've
definitely moved along
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:and worked for, you know,
several organizations
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:specifically in the accessibility area.
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:Were there any, you know, differences
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:or unique challenges as you moved along?
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:Were the, was it like stepping stones
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:or building blocks to where you are
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:or were they just different
types of experiences?
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:- Yeah, they all had different experiences
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:because I worked at a state
agency, which was, you, you have
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:to be small and scrappy
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:because you have, like I
said, no budget, no money,
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:you're on your own, you are an island,
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:so you are relying on the
people who are publishing their,
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:their resources online
and hoping for the best
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:and just trying to experiment.
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:And then at
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:after that, I went to, I went
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:to a for-profit company
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:who didn't really care
about accessibility, but,
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:but it, it, it was still,
it was still something
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:that I wanted to carry through.
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:And then I didn't last long there
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:because they did our ideals
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:and our values just didn't match.
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:So I, I petered along as
long as I could to kind
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:of make a living and then find another job
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:where it's eventually a
contractor for working
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:for the Centers for Disease
Control and Prevention.
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:And again, that's a place
where it really matters.
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:And it was still a facet
of my job where again,
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:I'm translating for people
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:where bringing developers
together with communicators
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:and front end people who are, you know,
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:creating social media posts.
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:And then social media became a thing
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:and people are trying to
understand like, well,
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:how do I make these social
media posts accessible,
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:whether it's video or posting pictures.
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:And again, the same tenants
held true on social media
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:that held true online.
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:So then it's again,
translating this information
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:and then we were making a
whole lot of PDFs, so I became
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:fluent in making tagging PDFs
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:and understanding that, which
again, had the same tenets
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:of accessibility that we had on the web.
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:So again, translating that information
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:and communicating the, the
funding foundational fundamentals
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:to people about why it's important,
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:we've got the same structures
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:and the same hierarchical,
hierarchical things that we have
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:to communicate to people.
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:So how do we, you know,
get these fundamentals
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:of communication across, why
is it important to have this be
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:flexible and give people agency to have
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:to make their own decisions
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:and navigate the way they want
to with assisted technology?
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:And we don't need to hold hands and,
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:and create ableist decisions just
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:because somebody has a disability.
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:So again, providing this
information to people,
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:but just in a wider spectrum
for the federal government.
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:After that, then I got my
first opportunity to then go
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:to JP Morgan Chase, where
it's finally part of my job.
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:It was officially the
only thing I got to do.
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:And then I was embedded
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:as a subject matter expert
within a scrum team.
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:So day in and day out, I'm
working with designers,
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:developers, scrum team
managers, leaders, writers,
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:everything where we're fixing
bugs, we're shipping product,
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:we're, you know, in a
tight release deadline and,
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:and shipping to, and,
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:and then worrying about like
the bottom line at this point.
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:And it then it became a different language
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:and it wasn't necessarily
about like always about
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:the greater good at that point,
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:and it didn't matter about money.
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:And then we're talking about
more about WCAG as opposed
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:to section 5 0 8.
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:So you kind of learn a
bit of different language
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:and in between there I had gotten
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:certification not from IAAP,
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:but a certification called
Professional Certi certification
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:of web accessibility from the
University of South Australia.
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:So I know that's different
from the vast, vast majority
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:of people in the United States.
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:I found that really rewarding
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:because for me, you join
a cohort of colleagues,
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:you do online courses, you read,
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:and then at the end
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:of the course you're really
understanding the users,
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:you're understanding w cg
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:and you have a project that you engage in
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:with your cohorts that you have to turn in
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:and you have to have graded
at the end of the course.
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:And you have a teacher
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:and a professor, Scott Holier
that was really wonderful
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:and taught you the importance
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:of the end user in all of this.
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:So I found that really rewarding
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:and for me it's the learning stuck
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:with me a lot more deeply than,
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:and in, in my learning style in how I,
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:how I like really dig into content.
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:So I found that rewarding
in my jump from working
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:with government to really working with
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:the for-profit sector
and the banking world.
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:And again, still being able to translate
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:in the banking world, the end
user when we're still trying
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:to turn out bugs and
talk about the end user,
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:but not lose that when we're
focusing on the bottom line.
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:And when I worked at JP Morgan
Chase, I not only worked
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:with scrum teams and I had I think four
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:or five scrum teams that
I worked with there,
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:but I also worked with
the design system kind
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:of writing like, how
does this component work?
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:What are we expecting?
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:What are the keystrokes that we're using?
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:How is it expected to sound
when we're talking about
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:assistive technologies that are engaging
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:with this like a screen reader,
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:how robust do we need to make this?
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:Because I think a lot
of us who have worked
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:with design systems understand
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:our intentions aren't
always how the developers
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:and designers will take these
components and implement them
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:and then use them in their designs.
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:So we need to really make them more robust
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:so people can't misuse them.
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:So being really clear and
setting clear expectations
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:and boundaries when we're
creating these design systems.
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:After JP Morgan Chase, I
had the opportunity to go
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:to Microsoft, and from there man,
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:I worked with a boatload of
different products at Microsoft.
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:I started in a group called AI
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:and R, which was covered
everything from the research
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:research organization to binging and maps
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:and oh my gosh, I'm gonna
forget so many products
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:that were in there, something
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:that is long since gone called Cortana,
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:which was like their
version of Siri, their
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:chatbots, all kinds of things
like there that really again,
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:expanded the breadth of
applying accessibility to a lot
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:of different things that
I hadn't tried before.
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:But once again, the
fundamentals hold true.
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:What is this thing? What are we doing?
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:How are we communicating
the fundamentals to people
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:to give them agency to
operate this in the way
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:that holds true, that they can understand
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:what they're trying to accomplish here
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:and how they can navigate
this independently
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:and within Microsoft.
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:Then I got another opportunity to move
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:to a group within there that was
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:even more broad than that,
where I worked on everything
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:from the Windows 10
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:and 11 operating system to like their,
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:their, some of their like mobile devices,
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:like surface kind of mobile
devices and then teams
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:and SharePoint and OneDrive,
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:and then kind of working
with the colleagues
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:to sometimes support some of
the office experiences there.
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:So really, really huge
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:and again, like all kinds of wild things
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:that would come up that you
get to talk about and support
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:and think through, like
how are we building these
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:to support like millions
of people worldwide
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:to make them really accessible
and empowering for people.
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:It really, when I think through it,
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:this little girl from
Oklahoma that like it,
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:it blows my mind to think through
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:the things, the products I've supported,
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:the people I've worked
with, the opportunities
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:that I've had to like
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:make an impact on something
that is so meaningful to me
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:and that I hope is, is just
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:creating more opportunities for
other people in the world to
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:cr create their own impact
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:once they have tools that work for them.
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:- Well, I it's, it's great
to hear about your pro
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:progression of experiences.
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:I think it's helpful
for people to, you know,
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:hear about the challenges
and the opportunities and,
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:and in your case it, it
really does seem like
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:there was a nice series of building blocks
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:that kept moving you forward, bringing you
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:to where you are today.
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:And I think that, you know, a lot
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:of people first get into accessibility,
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:it's a little bit hard seeing
how you can become part
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:of the profession and,
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:and then also hearing about your
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:professional CER certification.
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:I think that'd be interesting
to people as well. Yeah.
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:End up, you know, just,
you know, looking kind
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:of back at your career up through now
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:and into the future, are there
any areas that you've seen
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:that you feel like there's been really
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:interesting, amazing developments
or on the other side?
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:Or are there some things where you think
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:our profession is still, you
know, there areas we need
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:to pay more attention to
or get more support for?
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:- I think some of the most
interesting developments are
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:how much more open we are to
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:including more and more people.
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:The, the door when I first
got in, it seemed like
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:it was a field of experts
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:and I never thought that
I would be an expert.
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:I never thought that I would
be good enough to be in this.
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:But I think one thing
that has excited me is how
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:more open it has become
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:to all kinds of expertise in the field
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:and more welcoming it has become.
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:Because I do think we need all
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:of those creative solutions in the space.
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:We need more people in
the pool, if you will,
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:to really solve all of these
complex things coming at us.
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:Because a lot of times some
of the most creative solutions
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:that we get are from new
people coming into the field
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:and not us old fogies where
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:we've seen this same
problem a bazillion times
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:and we're thinking about it
the same way we've always
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:thought about it, it's
new people working with us
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:or it's new people that have
often don't know the rules,
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:don't know the way they
have to think about it,
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:that help us, that ask us a question
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:that make us think about it in a new way
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:or come at it completely
out of the blue to come
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:with a creative solution.
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:And so that for me is one of
the most exciting things where
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:it's no longer this like narrow field
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:of like sometimes it was experts trying
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:to out expert one another online.
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:It's just a breath of fresh air to me,
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:whether it's like a younger generation
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:or just cohorts
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:that are really excited about
making a change in this.
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:And for me that's part of
the thing that even with
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:the people being scared about chat GPT
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:or AI that's coming into, into the,
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:into the tech industry
right now, those are things,
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:the ingenuity and the
creativity of human expression
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:and community that cannot be
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:replicated by AI right now.
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:- Well, kinda looking
forward, are there any things
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:that you're particularly passionate
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:or excited about either
coming up in your organization
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:or things that you see, you
know, generally happening
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:in the accessibility profession?
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:- I really am passionate about
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:accessibility of charts and graphs.
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:I know that sounds really wonky,
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:but there's so much data out there
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:and I really think whether
you're talking about learning
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:disabilities or disabilities
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:where we're using things
like screen readers
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:or like draft naturally speaking
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:or anything like that,
making such large amounts
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:of data accessible.
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:And even like if I, I'm
coming to new sets of data
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:where I don't understand what
you're trying to communicate
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:to me with these large data sets
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:and these really complex numbers.
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:How do we make this data more accessible?
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:People are using data
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:to misrepresent things in large ways.
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:And so how do we make, give people more
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:better ways to communicate and
use this data in clearer ways
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:and, and not in a way that's like,
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:here's this graph now
go look at this table
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:and parse this data.
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:You've got dysgraphia,
you've got dyslexia,
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:you're using a screen reader.
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:Go read this table. Or you're new to this,
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:go read this table or try
to understand what all
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:of these acronyms are.
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:And I think that is one
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:of the biggest things on the
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:frontier that we need to tackle.
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:And that is the most exciting.
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:And I see a lot of people researching
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:and trying fun things from
sonification to all kinds
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:of different, different
ideas that can be, they, some
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:of it's can be prediction
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:and could use some AI in promising ways,
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:but can use creativity of the human spirit
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:and community in other ways
That will be really promising
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:- That that's definitely,
it's a topic area that I,
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:I think deserves a lot, a lot of attention
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:and that's what I'm interested in as well.
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:It's been a, a great pleasure
to be able to chat with you
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:specifically for this program,
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:so I appreciate you taking
the time to do that,
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:and hopefully we can
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:get together again in the
real world sometime soon. I
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:- Hope so too, Joe. It's been a pleasure.
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:- All right. Thanks a lot. Thank you.
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:All right, bye-Bye bye.