Start here when you can't find a full-time pastor for your church.

In this episode of the Pivot Podcast, hosts Alicia Granholm and Dwight Zscheile tackle the challenge of clergy shortage in churches with guest Marianne Ell, facilitator for the School for Lay Ministry with Faith+Lead.

SHOW NOTES:

Find out more about the School for Lay Ministry at https://faithlead.org/learning-community/school-for-lay-ministry-learning-community/

For transcripts, downloadable resources, and more, visit the podcast homepage at https://faithlead.org/show/pivot-podcast/

Alicia Granholm: One of the challenges facing a growing number of churches today is the decline in clergy to fill openings in congregations. In fact, most denominations are trying to figure out how to address this challenge for both denominations and local churches. There's a growing anxiety about who is going to fill these positions, but there's even something deeper at stake here: the collaborative nature of ministry in the body of Christ. By the end of today's episode, you will gain a deeper understanding of the need for lay leader development, how to raise up lay leaders, and different ways lay leaders can step into leadership positions in congregations today. Hello everyone, I'm Alicia Granholm.

Dwight Zscheile: And I'm Dwight Zscheile. Welcome to the Pivot podcast. This is the podcast where we talked about how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. We are really excited to have the Reverend Marianne Ell with us today. Marianne is an Episcopal priest who has served in a variety of ministry contexts, including most recently and for a number of years as pastor of Saint Luke's Church in Seaford, Delaware, very part time as we'll hear about. Marianne is also Canon for Strategic Mission in the Episcopal Diocese of Delaware and the lead facilitator for Faith+ Lead's School for Lay Ministry Learning Community. Marianne, welcome to the Pivot Podcast.

Marianne Ell: Thank you for having me. I'm honored to be a part of this. And, this is an area that I just really love to talk about and share, about. So I think it's timely. Thank you.

Alicia Granholm: So let's talk about the growing need for lay leaders in congregations today and how to raise up and develop lay leaders. Marianne, let's start by hearing a little bit about your background in ministry. Most of our listeners won't know that you served in Williston, North Dakota, during the oil boom. Can you tell us a little bit about that time in your life and what you saw happening in churches in that area?

Marianne Ell: Yes. So I was actually born in Fargo, North Dakota. So I'm from the Plains and as a, just going to go back to this for a second. But as a child, grew up in Brazil, my parents moved there, my father was a bishop. And, so really, most of my formation as a human and as, in my faith, came from my experience in that church and in that culture. And it's carried on into today and influences my understanding of the church. I after college, I went to we moved back when I was in high school and to the States and then, after college, I went to seminary. I was one of those few young people who went right away to seminary at that time. And, after seminary, I came back to the Diocese of Eastern Maryland, where I was the first woman ordained in my diocese at 26. So I was really pretty young. What was I thinking, right? And then served with small mission congregations and then went to, because it was hard to get a job as a woman ordained woman because there weren't jobs, so I worked with small mission churches and then took a call in Williston, North Dakota. A nd I had two congregations, uh, one in Williston and one in Cartwright, which is on the border of Montana. And so I served them part time, both of them together part time, and then did some work in ministry development for the Diocese of North Dakota until, the funding just wasn't there anymore. And I served 32 hours a week at our local hospital in chaplaincy, managing the spiritual care department. So Williston really changed during the oil boom when it quadrupled in size, for one thing. And we just didn't have the infrastructure for all of the changes, the number of people there, there were, man camps, people from all over the United States came new cultures and new languages in our community, which was very foreign for Williston. Um, of course, the whole drug scene and crime and everything came with it. And, it was like. It was really like, um, would say the gold rush in modern times. It just it really honestly, it was easy to get road rage on the highways, and, you know, going from one church to the, to the other on Sundays, I'd get to my church just flustered because I wasn't used to all that traffic on the road anymore. And so the churches really, um, had to find ways to help make those adjustments, right? To help with the greed, sort of combat some of the greed that goes along with that and yet also stay in that space of saying, gosh, with every boom comes a bust. Um, and how how do we go from this space to that? But it really, honestly was just a super chaotic time, and the church really had to find ways to serve the needs of all these people moving in, who from other parts of the country needed work and North Dakota was hosting them. And, so ways to reach out, help people find shelter in some cases. And once it's October, you can't live in the park anymore. Uh, and I know there were some churches who housed people, in their parish houses and food, right? Having some, uh, food, um, meals served. So there was just a lot of ways that church had to pivot a little bit to meet those needs. And the hope was that the church would really grow. And it did, uh, a little bit, um, but people were working their, you know, say 14 days on and then ten days off. So, so it wasn't a consistent growth, right? Some people eventually stayed on, and you saw a little bit of growth in some of the congregations. But it was just really an interesting time. They couldn't have you couldn't have told me about it. And me say I believe, I believe that, I believe that that's how it happened. Because it really I'm glad to have had the experience. But it was crazy, really was. In the hospitals, it was crazy. All of a sudden we had a death every day on our roads, which never happened before. And so even chaplaincy changed. Um, and the number of births our hospital had and long waiting times in our E.R., right? So just lots of shifts around that. But really interesting time and ministry.

Dwight Zscheile: So, Marianne, you've served a congregation, Saint Luke's very part time , and for years, you did that while holding a full time position as a chaplain in a retirement community. And now you're doing it while serving, um, for the diocese. Um, Saint Luke's figured out how to lead its life creatively and faithfully with, I would say, very minimal time and attention from you. Um, what did that look like? And what might we learn from your experience there?

Marianne Ell: So, I brought with me to back when we moved to the East Coast ten years ago, this experience of working with ministry teams and a lot of lay ministry. And, um, so when I moved to this town and they had begun this model of ministry, so the rector reached retirement age and they realized they just weren't going to have long term funding to support a full time position, for clergy. And so the rector had set them up really well in terms of developing their sense of ministry and asking the right questions. And so when I came along, they were somewhat established in that, but new, right? So what they needed was a pastor to come in and help keep moving that model forward. Um, and so they developed teams of people like for pastoral care and worship, a worship committee who plans worship, buildings and grounds finance. They even have somebody who teaches Bible study for them, right? And, so when I told them I would help them, I said to them, don't give me anything that you're already doing. And how they were worshiping when I came along was they had supply clergy. So clergy who lived in the area, who were helping them on Sundays, and what I was able to offer them was some continuity in that preaching. Right? So you can say, remember last week we talked about this. Um, so it's a collaborative model. It belongs to them. I'm never called for a toilet that's plugged. I might hear about it later, right? But, they have an incredible pastoral care team that they care for each other. They take each other to doctor's appointments, they bring food, they send cards, they take communion out, they go and visit people at the hospital and then say, hey Marianne, we really think you need to come. but generally that that is, is done by them. Now, the tendency would be for me to want to take that over, in part because it's like, well, I'm the pastor and I might feel a little guilty if I'm not doing all the pastoral care. Right? Because isn't that my job? But it's not, right? And so it really has taken a lot of discipline to say, no, I'm not leading that meeting. You guys have been doing this for years yourselves. You don't need me to lead it, but I'll do these roles right, given, uh, sacramental roles and and support and training type things. Um, so, they've continued I've been working with them for almost ten years now, and they've been able to continue in that model with that sense of discipline and boundaries. Right? Where they have their own Bible studies, like I might do a Lenten one or an advent one, but they have, you know, they have their they have somebody who steps up and teaches Bible study and people go, it's not like nobody shows up. People show up. And it doesn't have to be the pastor who's, um, who's leading it. So, it's been really a freeing. It's sort of like the best gig in the church if you're a pastor. And I encourage that model for any size church. Right? Like, we've got to give the ministry back to the people. It's not that it wasn't ever meant to be. A professional ministry was never meant to be professional. I don't think that's what Jesus had in mind at all. Right? That you had one professional who did it all, and then everybody else sort of ran circles around them.

Alicia Granholm: Marianne, I'm curious if you could share a little bit more about, um, you mentioned that you had experience with ministry teams in lay ministry, um, prior to, your move there. And I'm curious if you could share a little bit more about what that experience, when and where you had that experience before.

Marianne Ell: So when I was in North Dakota, they had developed some models of calling people from churches to be locally ordained and trained, but they had to have ministry teams in place. So people who had, you know, maybe a catechist and lay reader and so some, some of the different, areas of pastoral care person and this person would be part of that team. And really for, for the whole 18 years I was there, I drove 130 miles down to Dickinson once a month and supported them. They didn't have a clergy person. They just ran with this model. They just had a Bible education and some training to keep things going. And, um, so, but it takes some work. I'd say it takes some work to develop the culture, right, for people to understand this way of being, of doing ministry together, this of collaborating, of someone not being trying to be the boss of it all, even if so, the temptation is the pastor steps out of that what the church is given, the pastor is that role. And then somebody else wants to be the boss, right? So it's like really having to teach the sense of collaboration, um, in this work and sort of redirect people to what brings joy to them in their life, right? Because I think that if you help people, discern what, what brings meaning to them and help them connect faith and meaning together, it helps people not only identify, identify people's gifts, but also help them use it. So that's my experience in that was one part. The other part that's always been true for me is that even in working in the hospital and the retirement community, I really saw myself as the person who would help everybody else do their ministry. Right? And so for me, it was always like helping the nurses or helping, you know, the folks that cleaned the rooms or the people who brought the food in from from dining to understand that when they did that, they were serving Jesus. Right? So if I come in and I'm cleaning someone's room and they're sort of, you know, that's my way of of giving Jesus a clean home, right? Or if I'm feeding someone where we're doing Matthew 25 here, and people were surprised by that. Right? Because really, honestly, I was a professional pray-er, right? We need the pastor to come in. Someone's dying. Can can she come in and say prayers? But really, the people who offer their lives and and build relationships with folks are the people that are in their rooms all the time, right. The nurses, the the aides, the staff. And I always saw my job in trying to help people identify that, uh, and, and that way they find meaning and a sense of vocation in what they do. And I think everybody wants that. Does that answer your question?

Alicia Granholm: Yeah, absolutely, I love that. Um, so every year we have lay leaders join our School for Lay Ministry Learning Community as they get invited to step into ministry in different ways in their congregations. How, what are some ways that people can raise up lay leaders in their communities?

Marianne Ell: So, you know, I think a little bit about, um, what ministries did Jesus share, right? Um, and that it's not really super rocket science. It's just the ability to help, to be able to discern, to be able to see people's gifts and name them. And it's not fancy gifts, right? It might be that somebody is just super caring, or somebody might be really good at organizing or managing, or someone might be really good with kids or whatever. Right? Or a caregiver, right? Might be somebody really good at caring for others and, and helping to identify that and then as I mentioned before, connecting that to faith. But it, it really it really is a model of being able to to say, I need to share this role, I need to share this ministry. And what are the roles that need to happen here and help to fill them, you know, with people's gifts. And but having that attitude that, that this is a community where we've all been gifts given, gifts by the spirit, and they're all different and we need them all. And, you know, we get tired of saying, oh, you know, 20% of the lay people do 80% of the work or and, but that's our problem that we're doing that. Right? Instead of trying to get everybody engaged in it by sharing, uh, not only roles, but sharing the opportunity for them to see their life as ministry. And, and the other thing that I have always found helpful is to not have somebody do something alone. Right? So to help people bring someone else alongside of them so that there's always more than one. Right? And and that makes it easier. The other thing I think that's really needed is when we call people to different roles to service, when we identify their gifts and invite them into ministries or to see even their gifts is that we provide support for them. Right? Too often we ask people to do things, and we kind of let them go and don't provide the support or even cohorts of support. So an example of that in our diocese, one thing we're doing is we have cohorts or affinity groups. So like senior wardens or presidents of council, um, all have a call once every so many, you know, a month, once a month, or once every other month, so they can talk about, either how to fill out our parochial report or how to deal with not having a clergy person there or being in a search or whatever it is, or, what it means to be a leader or the, the administrators get together. The, the, um, treasurers get together that way, and they become support groups and conversation partners. And I just think that that's just the best model is to have a cohort of people because you don't feel alone, and then you have support and don't burn out.

Dwight Zscheile: So Marianne, I'd love to dig in a little bit more on, for clergy persons moving into this lay led, clergy supported model, which is what you're describing. And that's really one of the key pivots we're talking about in this series is from a primarily clergy led, lay supported to primarily lay led, clergy supported model of ministry. Um, say it a little bit more about what are the gains for that? What are the gifts for that for, for clergy. And then also what are some of the losses potentially or ways in which that could be challenging or difficult for pastors to embrace.

Marianne Ell: So let's start with a little bit of the difficulty, and then we'll go into the great things about it. So some of the difficulties one thing I mentioned is our own sense of what that means, especially if we've been trained for a long period of time, a long time ago and have a traditional role of being the clergy pastor. And, and people have given us all those responsibilities and we've gladly taken them as seen them, that that's what we're supposed to do. And, and but that gets exhausting. So, so one of the benefits for clergy is, hey, when you share that you, you have more life and energy to do other things, right, to do the things either that you're really good at, to be more in a supportive role, but there's some grief in it because all of a sudden I'm not the key pastor, right? Like I'm not the key pastoral care person, you know, like, I'm having someone else do that. And that might give I might feel a little bit of grief from that, that I've given that away and empowered people to care for each other that way. And yet in my mind, it's like, but why not, right? Isn't that what the community is supposed to do? So, you know, part of the difficulty for clergy, the other thing is that a lot of times it's like when you ask somebody to do something, when I ask somebody to do something and I have an idea of how they should do it, is that, sometimes it's just easier for me to do it myself because I've been trained for that. I know how to do it. It doesn't take so much time to have to teach somebody how to do that, to walk through that. And I might not have the energy for that. Um, think there's been so much going on that it has been hard for clergy to find the energy to function in a different model, you know, especially getting through Covid and all of the new anxieties in the church. As far as, the some of the benefits from it is it's, it's like. So I coached volleyball at one point in my life and, for a few years. And, you know, there are times that I just wish I could put on the jersey and go play for the girls because they just weren't, didn't show up, you know, weren't really playing them really care. And I just was like, well, just give me your jersey because I want to play, right? But I'm the coach, so I cannot do that. I can't play the game for them. And I like that model in my mind, you know. And in my heart, I'm just saying, you know, um, s your game to play. It's your church. And when people are engaged, like having people both be empowered and be engaged in this, this work creates sort of a fresh spirit that then attracts other people to it. Right? Like if I'm if I'm really I know that when I'm really engaged in something that it's really easy for me to invite other people into that or other people notice like, well, that just brings you a lot of joy. I want to be a part of that. How about if, you know, you develop a lay preacher? And how about having a Saturday night where you don't have to worry about preaching tomorrow, right? I mean, there's that's just gravy when you're a pastor, especially if you've been preaching. Right? Uh, 35 years or something of that kind. Um, and so. So there's a there's just a lot of benefits around energy and freedom and bringing people to use their gifts. That empowers them and gives them meaning, like people want to do stuff and use their mean, you know, use it. They don't want to do it forever. Meaning give them one job in the church to take care of the kitchen. And then they, only when they die they can get rid of it. Right? Um, they but they want to offer and they want to do things that matter. And, and as clergy, we do too. But impact and empowering people to do, to share as Jesus shared in ministry. To me, it's freeing for me as a leader. It just it just opens up, uh, my ability to really use my gifts, but also in the roles that I've been really called to do through my ordination. But you have to be clear about that. And it does take some cultural work. Right? It's not so easy to just jump in tomorrow and say "We're going to do this model now. Um, and this is how it's going to work." It just takes teaching, right? Coming back to teaching people about baptismal ministry and that that's where their call comes from, teaching people that there's a variety of gifts that were empowered by the Holy Spirit, that God has things in the world that God wants done and wants us to be a part of that. And it takes like I'm also reminded of the story of Jesus when he's going to feed the 5000 and ask the disciples to find some food, and they find this little boy who has food, and he's like, well, bring it to me, right? That's in the same way Jesus is always saying, bring me your gifts and let me do something with it, right? Because it really isn't about us. It's about offering ourselves to see what God will do in that community. You know, as as Dwight has said before, and I've read a lot of places and in the cohort I was in, you know, that what's God doing in the world and how do we participate in it? But helping people have that vision.

Dwight Zscheile: Well, very much so. And I think the metaphor that use of coach is really rich to think about a shift in role because coaches, um, aren't players in that sense, like they can't play the game for the team. And they also ask good questions and they notice things and, and help people take next steps. But it's a different kind of authority, right? Um, you're not the one who's making all the decisions. And so so that is a pretty dramatic shift in how authority and ministry is used when so many churches have a legacy expectation that clergy will sort of exercise all the authority themselves or sort of hold that authority on behalf of the people. And so, um, yeah. So I'm just curious if you have thoughts on kind of against some of the theological shifts that you've, um, laid out here and. And then how might congregations. So if our listeners are in congregations, maybe they have some of those old expectations, those legacy expectations what are some ways they could renegotiate those?

Marianne Ell: So I've also done a little bit of work with churches that are in search for clergy. And so what we do is take all the different traditional roles of ministry, not necessarily of the pastor. Right. But then go through them and say, what are you already doing? What are you all doing? What are you participating in, what you know, and then being able to tease out what it is that you really need the pastor to do in this time and in this in this time and in this, community. I think it's also helping to find some resources for people to be able to have available to them to learn more about it. I also, you know, when you talk about the authority and someone saying, well, I can't teach Bible study, so, I've learned how to do dwelling in the word and teach other people to do it. And every time we do that with the group of laypeople, they're amazed at what they've come up with. Right? So to to be able to say, hey, the words very near you and it's right here and it's in you and you have it, it doesn't have to be, you know, an expert, but there are expert resources out there. So, you know, showing people, gosh, there's commentaries that can help you with that, or uh, even, clergy who come together and say, hey, here's some resources we can offer our, our laypeople, for them to learn from or use, in developing some of their gifts. Yeah. And it is really about expectations, right? And expectations that we've developed over time. The other thing is that this isn't really new. I mean, it's new for us, but it's not a model that's really new. And all over the world, in different countries, they have groups of laypeople, that a clergy person comes through every once in a while, but the laypeople get together and they get training and they come, you know, sometimes drive several hours to, you know, a training and then go back and do their work and the clergy become support for that. But they don't have their own, their own clergy person in residence. And so, so to take heart and know that this isn't, it's new to us and a challenge, but to go back to our roots on this . It's just been a part of our history and as a Christian church. And even when you think about, you know, the person who would travel horseback from different one town to another, you know, the Methodist traveling pastors or I know in North Dakota that the bishop had a train car and he'd pull into different stations, hook up to the train when it went by, pull into another station, and he had a bed in there and, you know, had a little altar space and all of that, and people would come and worship there. So, expectations, exploring those expectations, like, why do we expect this to be done by this person? And like you said, asking a lot of the those questions. And and it is community discernment together but also engaging them in the mission. Right. What is the mission that God is calling us to? How do we participate in that? And, how do we put our gifts to use in that? It also means that sometimes it means giving up some things that we have expected to do forever, nobody has energy around anymore, but feel like somebody has to keep doing them, right, and ask the kind of questions of, you know, what do we, what do we need to be doing? And really, what's God's invitation here?

Alicia Granholm: I love that, Marianne. Marianne, so we're passionate about developing lay leaders, and we know that you are as well. And as our facilitator for our School for Lay Ministry. Can you share a little bit about this learning community? Who is it good for? What do people learn in it, and what is the value of it for the lay leaders that that you've seen come through it so far?

Marianne Ell: So what's unique about it is that it's not just one class. So it's a cohort. And we're developing a community of people. And I always say to them, look, we're a learning community and none of us is the expert, not even me, because I want to learn too. And, so, we do some, readings or watch some videos on in different areas, and it's really for anybody, with any gifts for ministry. So it could be, lay leaders in congregation or pastoral leaders, what do they call the lay leaders in the Lutheran tradition, who are leading pastorates, right, as lay people? It could be musicians. It could be Christian educators, youth folks, people who do visitation. It could be anybody with some interest in wanting to learn more and to grow spiritually, which is the the other expectation about this is that we do grow, right? That we do. We worship together every time we're together. And we have dwelling in the word. And everybody loves that. Getting into small zoom groups for those discussions. So we go through the material, and the material can be anything from New Testament to Old Testament, to ministry practices, to conflict in churches, to rural ministry, church history, digital ministry, innovative ministry. So, so we cover really a lot of ground. How to preach, how to do exegesis. Right? So, so learning about context and all that for Scripture. So it, it just is a way to help people to have more knowledge. And I'll tell you, people are hungry for this. Our laypeople are really, really hungry for this. And there's been such a gap in what we've been able to get that give them. The success of it to me has been that it's a cohort that everybody shows up to and can't wait to be on together, and they feel supported in for a whole year and developing relationships all over the country. At times different ecumenical groups and different denominations. And, we get to talk about God in the church and our ministries. And, and are some folks who have felt, doing this, have felt cause to further look into maybe ordained ministry or that other people have seen that in them, or that they don't feel that biggest thing is, I don't feel alone in having to work with these rural congregations as their lay pastor. And I have something to work with here. And I'm not just sort of thrown to the wolves, in ministry. And, that's really empowering to me.

Dwight Zscheile: Well, Marianne, that is a wonderful note for us to, to end on because this whole conversation has been about empowering, and the Holy Spirit is doing that through you and your ministry, for sure. And we live in a time when the Holy Spirit is raising up all kinds of leaders, not just professional pastors and all kinds of ways. And so this is an exciting time. Thank you so much for joining us, Marianne, and being with us today. And, for those of you who are listening, if you want to learn more about the School for Lay Ministry, you can do so by visiting Faith Lead.org or through the link in the show notes for today's episode. Thank you Marianne.

Marianne Ell: Thank you. And if anybody else wants to keep talking about this stuff, I really love it. And I'm excited about the church changing in ways that really become clergy supporting laypeople and very collaborative. So thank you for having me. It's been just a joy.

Alicia Granholm: Well, thank you so much for tuning in today. We will see you next week on another episode of The Pivot podcast.

Faith+Lead: The Pivot podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith lead. Faith lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at Faithlead.org.