In this episode of the Future Proof HR podcast, Thomas Kunjappu sits down with Andy Martiniello, Chief People Officer at Equipment Ontario and Principal Coach at Martiniello Coaching & Consulting, to explore what it really means for HR to work at the intersection of people and strategy, not as separate disciplines, but in lockstep.

Drawing on a career spanning sales leadership, executive coaching, HR technology, and strategy work, Andy shares how coaching senior leaders requires a deep understanding of how the business actually runs. He explains why focusing on individuals alone is not enough, and how people leaders can create real impact by coaching the system, the value chain, the operating model, and the patterns that shape outcomes.

Andy breaks down how CPOs and CHROs can move upstream into strategy by mapping how work flows across the organization, identifying where execution stalls, and aligning teams around a shared understanding of how value is created. He also discusses the tension between psychological safety and accountability, and why effective coaching must balance both to drive meaningful change.

The conversation explores how AI is reshaping people and strategy work, not by replacing human judgment, but by accelerating analysis, surfacing patterns, and acting as a thought partner for leaders navigating complexity. Andy shares practical examples of how AI can help HR leaders make better decisions, faster, while keeping interpretation and accountability firmly human.

Topics Discussed:

1. People and strategy working in lockstep
2. Coaching the business system, not just individual leaders
3. Balancing psychological safety with accountability
4. Mapping value chains before org charts
5. Using AI as a thought partner in people and strategy work
6. Moving HR upstream into strategy conversations
7. Identifying patterns that block execution
8. What it takes for HR to drive outcomes, not just support them

If you are an HR leader, people executive, or coach looking to move beyond individual development and influence how the business actually works, this episode offers a grounded, systems-level perspective on how HR can create lasting strategic impact.

Additional Resources:

1. Cleary’s AI-powered HR Chatbot
2. Future Proof HR Community
3. Connect with Andy Martiniello on LinkedIn

It's almost impossible to really explore how a senior

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leader works without understanding

the business to some degree.

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Of course, the work of coaching

is really centered on the person.

4

And yet understanding what's happening

in the business started to become

5

more prevalent in the conversation.

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So there's a balance and that landed

ultimately as working with the

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people on the strategy in lockstep.

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Thomas Kunjappu: They keep

telling us that it's all over.

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For HR, the age of AI is upon

us, and that means HR should

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be prepared to be decimated.

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We reject that message.

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The future of HR won't be handed to us.

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Instead, it'll be defined by those

ready to experiment, adopt, and adapt.

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Future Proof HR invites these builders to

share what they're trying, how it's going,

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what they've learned, and what's next.

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We are committed to arming HR

with the AI insights to not

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just survive, but to thrive.

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Thomas Kunjappu (2): Hello and welcome

to the Future Proof HR Podcast, where

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we explore how forward thinking HR

leaders are preparing for disruption

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and redefining what it means to

lead people in a changing world.

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I'm your host, Thomas

Kunjappu, CEO of Cleary.

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Today's guest is Andy Martiniello,

Chief People Officer at Equipment

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Ontario and Principal Coach at

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Martiniello Coaching & Consulting,

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an ICF certified executive coach

and facilitator with a sales

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and HR tech background, working

at strategy and innovation with

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strategizer and also at Workday.

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Andy helps leaders and teams find

meaning, spot patterns, and ship outcomes,

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pairing human insight with modern tools.

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Andy, welcome to the podcast.

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Andy Martiniello: Thank you

so much Thomas, it's a real

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pleasure to be here with you.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Absolutely.

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And your background is so unique.

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Can you tell me a little bit

about the how and the why you

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combine people and strategy?

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And I don't mean people strategy.

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mean, people and strategy.

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Andy Martiniello: Yeah, thanks Thomas.

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That was a framing that sort of

struck me in the last couple of years

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as I continued to evolve what I do.

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I guess on one lens, you could

say it happened by accident.

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I started in sales, fell into

sales many years ago and, then just

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continued to build my sales career,

working for a variety of tech

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companies, predominantly in the HR

space, moving into leadership roles.

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And there was one thing that kind

of continues to burn away and it

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was this interest in the coaching.

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piece started probably about 20

plus years ago, a friend of mine,

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was living out in Vancouver.

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She'd suggested, Hey, you

should come to this course.

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And it just lit me right up.

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And it was one of the early stage courses

around coaching, co-active coaching model.

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And I just really fell in love.

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I took that right in.

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And while initially I thought, maybe I'll

shift over into the world of coaching.

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I recognized that I wasn't ready.

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And so I just kept bringing all the

tools, the core competencies from

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the world of coaching and integrated

them into the work I was doing as a

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salesperson and as a sales leader.

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You can see just a lot of parallels

in those core competencies.

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And that continued to build.

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And over the years, I just kept creeping

closer and closer to doing the work of

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coaching and then ultimately facilitating

the time I spent at Strategyzer.

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You'd mentioned that it was a real pivotal

piece because it added the strategy piece.

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And while that organization is really

predicated around innovation and

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getting a deeper understanding of

how does a business work and what

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does their business model look like?

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I learned at the feet of one of the

experts, probably the preeminent expert

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in that space, Alex Osterwalder, who

created the business model of Canvas.

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And that added a really important piece

to the work I was doing as a coach.

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And so I found myself as I was going into

organizations and starting to work with

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their senior leaders under the heading of

executive coach, bringing in conversation

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around how's the business running?

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Because it's almost impossible to really

explore how a senior leader works without

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understanding the business to some degree.

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Of course, the work of coaching

is really centered on the person.

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And yet understanding what's happening

in the business started to become

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more prevalent in the conversation.

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So there's a balance and that landed

ultimately as working with the people on

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the strategy in lockstep so understanding

what is the strategy of this organization?

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How are you going to market?

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What is your business model look like?

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And then how do the people function

in that to bring it to life?

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Because of course every organization

is just a group of people coming

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together to make something happen.

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Thomas Kunjappu: So it's, it

sounds like it's been this like

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organic long journey that's put

all these pieces together for you.

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And I let off asking you about

strategy, which is one element, but

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a lot of your career was actually

in directly in sales, right?

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Tell me about how that's

influenced your approach.

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If at all, I don't know what you put in

towards coaching with a sales leadership

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or sales background versus the things

that you see generally missing or is that

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you find is distinct from most coaching

or people operations or HR practices.

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Andy Martiniello: Yeah, I wonder

if maybe part of that answer is so

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much of what we do both under the

heading of sales and in coaching is

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aligning with human behavior, right?

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Attempting to gain an understanding of

human behavior and result, see where

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can we influence something or create a

space for somebody to discover something?

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And I think again, if we're thinking

about sales and coaching, are

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parallels in all of those things.

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So as a salesperson, how do I create a

space for you to find a solution, right?

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That's ultimately what good

salespeople do is they partner with

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an individual or a team to help them

understand what is the problem at

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hand and how do they find a solution.

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So what's current state?

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What does future state look like?

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And what is the tension

that exists between the two?

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And so that happens in a sales

conversation and that happens

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in a coaching conversation.

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Of course, different

elements and engagements.

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But fundamentally, there's a

really important correlation

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between those two things.

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And so I think that helped me

sort of transition more fluidly.

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I also wonder too, wherever I do bring

value for organizations, it might be

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amplified by the fact that I kind of

grew up working in a sales environment.

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And I will say, I working for large

organizations, many of them US-based.

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There is a certain philosophy and

an intensity that goes with that,

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that really commits to outcomes.

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And I feel like that created a bit

of an edge for me that personally

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almost to say, Hey, if we're not

driving to outcomes, why are we here?

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And I feel like that edge resonates

with senior leaders who are looking

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to have the experience personally

and create the right environment

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for their employees and balance that

with, we got to get things done.

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Let's get out there.

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And if we're not, let's make

different choices, right?

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And let's be assertive in those choices.

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So think there's something in this

sort of assertiveness and that clarity

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and intensity that comes over from

my sales background into the work

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I do as a coach and a consultant.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Because there's

such an outcome focus, right?

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And half your paycheck or more can

be reliant on the actual outcome.

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you grow in that year over year,

decade after decade, that creates

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a certain kind of animal, right?

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Andy Martiniello: That's it.

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And just one other point that I have

heard and maybe a bit of a story I make

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up is that senior leaders think about

coaching sometimes and go, is it just

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like a big warm hug for everybody?

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And yeah, the answer is yes.

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There many ways you can do

Coaching does provide that.

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And it's as critically important

to drive to those outcomes, to

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be accountable to those outcomes.

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It's like Amy Edmondson, the creator

of the individual that coined

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the phrase and the researcher

behind psychological safety says,

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There has to be this balance between

psychological safety, that sense

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that I can say and do what I feel is

right without fear of recrimination.

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And at the same time, I have to

be held accountable to outcomes.

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And she makes that a very strong point.

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And that really resonates with me.

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And I think that resonates with leaders.

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It's yes, you have to

have the right experience.

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You have to feel comfortable and safe

and feel lit up in the work that you do.

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And you can't lose sight

of what's our goal, right?

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What are we trying to get done?

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And embedded in that is a choice.

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If I no longer want to get to that goal,

then I need to make a different choice.

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And I think that's important.

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Thomas Kunjappu: You said something that

struck me in that, and the earlier part

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there, which is want to repeat slowly and

make sure I digest, which is that both

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in sales and in coaching, what you're

doing is creating the space for the

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person to discover the solution and maybe

even discover the problem, depending

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on where you are at the conversation.

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And I noticed you're framing that

as such that the agency is with the

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client or with the person being coached

as opposed to pushing or telling.

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So I guess that's a difference

when you have real buy-in.

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that kind of the distinction

that you're going for there?

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Andy Martiniello: Yeah, absolutely.

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That's that is a core shared

piece, I would say, between

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both selling and coaching.

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One distinction, though, above and beyond

that, and I would say a divergence is as a

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salesperson, I do come in with an agenda.

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Like I do want to partner with

you to help you find a solution.

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And it's important that it's

my solution that you choose.

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I'm finding that balance between,

I want you to get what you need.

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And I want that to be what I have.

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With coaching, it is critically

important that we don't go in

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with an agenda for the person.

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We go in with an agenda for the structure,

for what we're holding here for sure.

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But whatever you fill that

agenda with is entirely yours.

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And at the end of the day, whatever

you choose to do is up to you.

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Now, I will say though, that circling

back to that as a coach, if at the

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end of our coaching relationship, you

find yourself exactly where you were

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and nothing has shifted, I would take

that heavily, it wouldn't work for me.

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I would think that while again,

it's not my agenda to drive

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whatever it is that you want.

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It is within my agenda to say you

shifted, you grew in some way or

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something changed for you because that's

why we're here in the first place.

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And that could be to fix a

problem or it could be to expand.

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This is another important thing

that a lot of individuals and I do

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find this, I've worked predominantly

with executives, so that's the bias,

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that's the filter I bring is they say,

what if there's no problem to fix?

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That's okay.

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Everybody tends to have

something to work on.

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But if it's not something that really

stands out, what could you do more of?

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Where could you expand?

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What's really working today for you?

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And if you were to focus some

more energy and time on it would

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exponentially grow by a factor of

some 10x or whatever it might be.

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That's something that more essentially

almost always results in the individual.

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When they start to think of that

starts to uncover, okay, well to do

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that, here's what's holding me back.

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Okay, so here's something that is

creating some kind of constraint.

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It's not an enormous problem,

but there's a constraint there.

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And if we unlock that, you'd

continue to build something or maybe

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discover something that you hadn't

even thought of in the first place.

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So those are the opportunities.

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But if that's not happening, I would

say that is in my agenda for a coach

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conversation is if again, at the end

of that cycle, the individual is going

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nothing, I got nothing from this.

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That would be a failure for me.

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I would consider that.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Got it.

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you're just looking to create like motion,

not for its own sake, but in the belief

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that there's growth available for all of

us, if not just to improve the positive.

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But then you also said that one of

the key distinctions is that you

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don't necessarily have an agenda.

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The, the how things happen isn't

preordained as you go into conversation.

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And that's a common thing

I hear in coaching stance.

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I want to challenge that a little bit when

the context of a lot of HR leaders, right?

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Who do this role part time.

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So you're both a part of the

stakeholder group in some ways, right?

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If you're a part of the C-suite and

yet you also play this part-time

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role and often significant role.

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of the many important things that you

might do as a chief people officer

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is to play this coach role for the

executives that you're surrounded by.

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Now in that case, given that you're

deep in, it's very different, I

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would argue, than an engagement

where you're just coming in

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working individually with a person.

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You're coaching ⁓ a series of

people within the context of an

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organization that you yourself are

a part of and will be developing

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opinions on how to win entirely.

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So how do you approach that in those

instances or what advice would you

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have for peer CPOs, CHROs, score,

obviously often doing that, right?

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Yeah.

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That's part of their work.

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Andy Martiniello: Yeah, it's

an excellent noticing Thomas.

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It's a really good point.

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Going into this particular exercise and

project that I'm in, it's critically

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important that maintain some neutrality

that says, I'm finding that balance

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between those individual interactions,

working with them and exploring them.

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Of course, I work with a group of

incredibly talented, deeply experienced,

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highly intelligent people who are

really striving to create an outcome.

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Are working in a very complex environment

because they're merging two organizations

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and so then there's lots of history and

all of those things coming into it and say

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okay how well can I gain an understanding

of what is the and I'll go back to that

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word agenda what is the agenda of the

business what is the business need and how

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do we place that as our North Star and in

that I leverage that to help maintain that

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neutrality because you're exactly right.

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If I reflect on a year ago, it was

different than it is today because

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today I'm so immersed in the day

to day and the conversations, not

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just with the leadership team,

but with the entire organization,

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because I do go across the complex

and work with people at every level.

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And so I gain an understanding and I

of course see the patterns and one of

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the core things that I'm there to do.

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And there is a level of energy drain

that starts to come in and say, boy,

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this pattern is just persisting.

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Whereas when you're externally, you

can go, there's the pattern, let's

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talk about ways that you can work

out, talk to you in a couple of

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weeks, tell me how that works, right?

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Here, I'm very embedded in the pattern.

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And so there is a different

energetic engagement with that.

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There's no question.

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And yet the importance of it,

the approach stays the same.

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It's always, what is the business need?

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And then what do the teams need

and what do the individuals need?

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And so we can think of those three

as critical agendas that we're

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gaining a deep understanding of.

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Seeing how they work together.

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Where might they be in conflict and

how do we unlock and smooth those

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areas of conflict between them?

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It's a, it is a very complicated sort

of story to try to figure all that out.

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But being there, being so immersed in

it gives me the opportunity to really

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understand what that looks like.

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And then of course gaining a deep

understanding over time of the

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individuals always staying relevant.

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And this is something that is for

me, self work regularly is to stay

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out of my own interpretation, right?

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What's my opinion?

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Who might I just be connecting more with?

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Not because of their attitude or

approach, but just because people,

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we have a tendency to drift more

towards one person than the other

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just with our nature, right?

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And so how do I enable that relationship

at the same time, not let it catch me up.

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So now suddenly I'm starting to drift to

an opinion that might be from time to time

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in opposition to someone else's neutral.

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So it's a lot of self work for me and

it, but as a coach, it's phenomenal.

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It's an amazing sort of training ground

for that to keep me sharp on that.

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And so it really adds a lot.

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So I don't know if that

really addresses the question.

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It complicated thing to do and

to really do effectively, it's

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certainly a work in progress.

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Thomas Kunjappu: I wanted to ask

it because you have both types

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of engagements and experience

and you can see the difference.

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Yeah, there's coaching stance, but

there's also leadership in some ways.

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And maybe this can relate to my next

question, which is going back to the

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idea that you're also helping and working

on strategy often with the business.

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So with that dual remit, you're

coaching the exec team leaders

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as well as working with them to

help figure out like the strategy.

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When a people leader Chief People

Officer is co-designing the strategy,

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could just tell me what that looks like.

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Because I think most people leaders

are thinking they're part of it, right?

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They're executing on the people

strategy, which is the biggest resource

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and the most amount of money and

spent in the entire organization.

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And they're looking to

create leverage for that.

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But when you say you're working on

strategy for the organization itself, I

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think it'd be helpful for me and for the

audience to clarify that distinction.

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Andy Martiniello: Sure.

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So when we think about it from the

people lens, we think about developing

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the skill set for the individuals.

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And that can be hard

skills, of course, right?

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Depending on what they do for a job.

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And then all the soft skills.

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And we have developed a program

called Cultivating Leaders, playing

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on the agricultural element.

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So that's on the soft skills side of it.

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That's critically important

and always will be within the

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remit for us as people leaders.

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The element of strategy to understand.

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OK, so this is the

people in strategy piece.

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So here's the people working on them.

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Then to understand the strategy, you need

to get into the guts of the business.

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So you got to look at

what is the value chain?

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What are all the key functions that

need to happen in this organization?

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And what are the interdependencies

between those key functions and

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what's working and what isn't right?

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And how well does

everybody understand that?

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And so to start that, we

got to dig deep, right?

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And look at each key function

and start to really itemize what

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happens under this heading, right?

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So if it's fleet, facility,

sales, marketing, right?

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What are all of the things that need

to happen and structure in a workshop

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format and extract a deep understanding.

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And that can accelerate depending

on where the organization is.

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If they've got the answers

already, you're already there.

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If they don't, then you

start with that work.

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And the upside of the closer they

are on that scale of we don't really,

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we know obviously because we've been

doing this for years and years, but

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as is commonly the case, there's a

distinction between knowing it and then

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being able to really articulate it.

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And in the articulation, you can identify,

okay, what's working and what isn't.

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And so in that work of bringing it

out, the exercise itself is a massive

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education for everybody in the room,

including the people that have been

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doing it for years, because now you

start to identify the patterns, right?

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And I know that part of our conversation

here, of course, is about AI.

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AI has been really fundamental, central

to this work of taking all the outputs

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to that as one of the early exercises

I ran with this organization and

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starting to inject those transcripts

into my large language models and

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saying, okay, what do you see?

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What are the patterns?

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And bringing those back up and then using

that, which again is a coaching practice.

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as coaches were reflective

practitioners, right?

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We go, here's what we heard.

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We hold that up as a mirror and

say, what does this mean to you?

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And so we do that on the organizational

front and go, here's what I'm hearing.

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Here's the, here are the patterns

that people are like, yeah, that

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is, we do struggle here, right?

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You can, have a visceral response.

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Usually when you bring that on everyone's,

man, yeah, that's a thing, right?

358

Yeah.

359

Okay.

360

So let's put that in the list of things

that we need to think about to help again,

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deeper, gain a deeper understanding of,

and what do we need to do differently

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there to change the outcomes, right?

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Where are the enablers and

blockers embedded in all of this?

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And so you go all the way through

and understanding that at the end of

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that value chain sits the customer.

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So how well do we

understand that customer?

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So to do that, I would bring back in

the strategizer framework to say, how

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will you understand your business model?

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And again, it's amazing when you really

unpack that because, say I grew up in this

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business, I understand how to do this.

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And they do, the evidence is clear.

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And when you get into this, how will

you articulate your business model?

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What is your value proposition

or do you have multiple elements

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to your value proposition?

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How are you driving that

to your customer segment?

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How are you keeping that alive?

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How do you make money?

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And then what is the backstage, as

we refer to it in the business model

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world, what are your key activities

and resources and partnerships

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that are enabling this work?

381

And what are the costs

that are associated?

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And how well do you understand that

profit formula that sits at the

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underpinning of a business model?

384

And so to get to that level and

understand that, put it all together.

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You then say, so then how are

we activating our people in this

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and where are they getting stuck?

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Where are the places they're like,

okay, we're going, it's working and

388

then boom, here we continually stall.

389

And we understand, okay, is that,

should we even be doing this?

390

Right?

391

We can answer that more effectively

when we understand, well, yeah,

392

cause we've checked it against the

flow of work or maybe no, we don't

393

even know why we do this anymore.

394

Things have changed and

whatever the case may be.

395

Right?

396

So you got to go into the source code

of the business to then understand

397

it in a way that you can start

to diagnose and interrogate each

398

piece so that you understand what

to do differently going forward.

399

Thomas Kunjappu: So if I understand

this right, it's part understanding

400

the org chart, but really that's just

a holding spot for the overall value

401

chain, starting from why a customer

would buy all the way down to all

402

the internal guts of everything.

403

So it's almost like a big process map

of the entire organization that you're

404

bringing out for people who might

be in little pieces of it, but are

405

not fully aware of what's happening.

406

And it might be like, you feel that

viscerally I'm seeing when someone

407

puts a name to something that they've

been seeing in terms of how they're

408

collaborating across groups and the

tactics here involved to enable this.

409

sounds that typically goes beyond

what a coach or a CHRO tends to

410

do is probably, let me ask you.

411

So I think it involves like interviewing,

obviously, like you're talking

412

to key individuals in different

groups, but then you're also.

413

studying internal docs to really put

the pieces together to understand and

414

then also asking a lot of questions

with the right framing and the right

415

groups that are not so much about how

do you work, but how does this work?

416

Andy Martiniello: Yeah, absolutely.

417

It's a combination of all of that.

418

And you mentioned org chard.

419

Org chart is the secondary piece.

420

We layer that on top of this.

421

This is, would say, source.

422

We do that exactly.

423

So my method is always try to start

as small as you can with the people

424

that have a very informed opinion and

extract everything you can from them.

425

So that's what we, what's what I did is

I sat with the core senior leadership

426

ownership team and went through.

427

all of the key functions.

428

Sales, service, parts, for us, fleet,

facility, all of those things, right?

429

And really interrogated each one,

what are all the critical things?

430

And then all of that output, I then,

to your point, go to others and go,

431

hey, this is what we think this is.

432

What do you think?

433

So that we're not starting

with a blank slate, right?

434

And they're now helping us edit and

we're iterating on the understanding.

435

And so by the end of it, we

get to a really concise pretty

436

fully thought through opinion

of what is needed in each one.

437

And in pockets, I got, no, you're

missing a whole thing over here.

438

Or their reflection was,

no, that's not how it is.

439

And what the learning was for me

was, actually, that is how it is.

440

This is how the business needs to run.

441

But your understanding of it is

now, I'm getting some clarity in

442

terms of how you understand it.

443

And now, as a result, might be able

to see why this isn't working so well.

444

And that might be because you simply

need to understand it better or

445

very occasionally maybe this just

isn't the right role for you, right?

446

You might be in a position that

isn't best suited and you're in a

447

position where you're of influence.

448

So we need to rethink this, right?

449

So how do we partner with

you to get this to work?

450

Well, what do you need?

451

What support you need from us?

452

So that all comes out of that exercise.

453

And then you elevate that to

say, okay, so then how does the

454

org chart look over above this?

455

And so that now you're

putting the people into it.

456

So you start with the

here are the functions.

457

And now you're putting the people into it.

458

And then of course, the next layer

is that, you have the right people?

459

Do they have what they need?

460

Where are they enabled?

461

Where are they blocked?

462

What training do they need?

463

Do we need to the classic Jim Collins,

change your people or change your people

464

or whoever we ascribe that, that saying

to that, that's the part that starts the

465

services back into the people part, right?

466

So we go into the deep into the

strategy, into the work, into workings.

467

And now we go into the people part

and say, okay, now let's layer

468

that on top and see where we are.

469

This has been a fantastic

conversation so far.

470

If you haven't already done so,

make sure to join our community.

471

We are building a network of the

most forward-thinking, HR and

472

people, operational professionals

who are defining the future.

473

I will personally be sharing

news and ideas around how we

474

can all thrive in the age of ai.

475

You can find it at go cleary.com/cleary

476

community.

477

Now back to the show.

478

Thomas Kunjappu: And I guess

simplistically, the counter model that's

479

most prevalent is that first part,

however deeply it is done in terms of

480

understanding the value chain and how

the different parts of the business

481

interact with each other and the market

is in some ways delivered to the chief

482

people officer or they're a customer

of it or they assume it as an input

483

into everything that they're doing.

484

there is...

485

And I thank you for going through that

a little bit in some detail is that

486

there is an opportunity and depending

on the organization and the context for

487

the person in this seat to actually go

in upstream a little bit and dig and

488

find and create value that can help

align the entire organization and also

489

your own, including your own downstream

work, which is working on tuning the

490

people, not just the system itself.

491

So you mentioned some of this, but.

492

How has AI impacted this work that you do?

493

So we talked about executive coaching

and individual coaching, strategy work,

494

and just being chief people officer.

495

And in some depth about some

of the processes and things

496

that you're doing day to day.

497

So how has this revolution that we're

in the midst of changed things so far?

498

Andy Martiniello: Yeah.

499

And boy has it ever.

500

think the timing is amazing for me,

certainly, and many who are in this

501

type of work to have access to a tool

like this and knowing that the tool like

502

this is just in this moment, who knows

what it's going to be going forward.

503

So that example that I

gave taking outputs, right?

504

So I do that regularly.

505

record and of course, from an ethic

perspective, make sure everybody knows

506

that everything's being recorded.

507

And everything that's going to come out of

it is an amalgamation of what's recorded.

508

It's extracting the

themes, the key learnings.

509

It's not about, Hey, you said this

and now we have you on record.

510

And so I take that output and I

run it through, I use ChatGPT.

511

So I run it through the bot and I

prompt and I really engage with it.

512

So I consider AI a thought partner.

513

I will put that in into the bot and say,

okay, so here's a conversation I had.

514

It was about this.

515

to give you some context.

516

What are the patterns you're seeing?

517

What are the key points?

518

What are the action items?

519

And it'll, of course,

extract all of that, right?

520

And then I'll iterate with it.

521

And I'll say, here, want to

drill down into this part, right?

522

So you notice that there's

pockets that you saw a pattern

523

that said, waiting for, right?

524

We're waiting for this.

525

We're waiting for this.

526

OK, you notice that as a pattern.

527

Expand on that where are we waiting

and then and or that'll be in itself

528

a point that I'll take back to

the organization sake it clearly

529

This is where we're stuck right?

530

We're waiting here So where in the flow

can we start to change the process or what

531

needs to happen to unlock that and so and

we're I'm in this exchange all the time.

532

And then over time I'm building like a

relationship with this technology that

533

has a now a preloaded understanding.

534

So the answers are evolving to say,

based on your environment, here's some

535

thoughts, here's some ideas, right?

536

Knowing that Equipment Ontario is striving

to do this, consider this based on now

537

the information you've just put in.

538

Let me suggest a framing for you

that might be more valuable as you

539

go back into the next conversation.

540

Over time, it's really evolving into,

like I said, a genuine thought partner

541

that I am also feeding my thoughts

into, my core concepts, the tools that

542

I use in my work and in my practice,

and educating the tool, right, to say

543

these are the things that are important

to me and that I understand so that as

544

I'm working with the data that comes out

of it, it gives me an additional edge

545

by framing some of its own outputs in a

language that makes sense to me, right?

546

So it's a game changer because it

547

doesn't invent new ideas for me, right?

548

The ideas are captured in the data

and or my own concepts, right?

549

As I've processed them.

550

But it's formatting it in

a way and categorizing in a

551

way that really simplifies.

552

And then of course, the actual

output that I ultimately share back

553

to the stakeholders is refined.

554

It absolutely accelerates that.

555

I think in its most basic

form, it'll do that.

556

It'll take a bunch of data and

go, here's your key points.

557

Here's the bullet points.

558

If anyone's taking those bullet points and

just going here, we're really missing it.

559

Like the interpretation

piece remains with the human.

560

And I think that's a critically

important element of it, right?

561

Like we need to take that data, make

sense of it, and identify, okay, so you've

562

established these patterns, but which are

the patterns that need to be highlighted?

563

Which ones are the ones

that have the most meaning?

564

Understanding the context to the degree

that I do as the person that's in the

565

mix of it So yeah, so it's a real partner

for me and I certainly use it regularly.

566

Thomas Kunjappu: So thanks

for going through that.

567

And it sounds like it's a pattern that

I've seen many times for tasks that

568

are important and sensitive, which

obviously coaching falls into that where

569

the data is sensitive and the outcomes

and how it's presented as sensitive

570

where AI can help with the analysis

phase in a particular task, which is

571

hidden within the multiple steps and

brings those steps in the middle.

572

to an outcome faster.

573

The input and the output is controlled

by you, the human with a lot of context

574

and massaging and the intermediate

steps where you as a coach, it's

575

not replacing any conversations.

576

You're not doing an AI bot conversation.

577

You're not getting a presentation

out to the group automatically.

578

Even though some of these things are

possible, you can debate the quality.

579

It's interesting to like talk through

or understand where you landed in

580

terms of a process so far with that.

581

So then if you look forward, do you think

the increase, the growing up of this

582

technology and the increased prevalence

of it over time, is it going to reduce

583

or increase the demand for human coaches?

584

Andy Martiniello: Obviously

it's a very tricky space.

585

I think that the prevalence of

coaching will increase simply because

586

I think there's an accessibility

that AI is going to enable, right?

587

So it's going to enable

more coaching, right?

588

It's going to reduce costs.

589

And so I guess the upshot of what I'm

590

trying to say here is that more people

might move towards coaching as a result.

591

There may even be an interpretation of

it for anyone who is holding back to

592

work with a coach because of any sort

of insecurities or sense of, don't

593

want to share this with another person.

594

There might be that, right?

595

They may feel they can

bridge it more easily, right?

596

I can't really reflect on generational

differences, but maybe younger

597

generations with a higher potentially

innate comfort with technology, right?

598

So all of that might be true.

599

I think when you consider the

advancements and even if we look at

600

who is the AI actress, Tilly Norwood.

601

Thomas Kunjappu: AI actress?

602

I don't think so.

603

Andy Martiniello: Yeah.

604

Have you seen this?

605

Yeah.

606

Google, this is quite a thing.

607

So there is a created a real

stir in Hollywood, right?

608

This AI actress.

609

You look at the footage, you're

like, no, that's just an actress.

610

That's a human being acting.

611

Hollywood is reacting, going, you

can't call that thing an actor, right?

612

It's all technology.

613

But if you look at that

interface, it's remarkable.

614

is.

615

She's a human.

616

And I don't know if you

use voice enabled AI.

617

Imagine you do.

618

I certainly, regularly.

619

And so the tone, and I genuinely get like

a real experience as all of us, would

620

imagine do having this exchange with this.

621

the voice, and then you advance it to

the point where you've got a physical

622

presence of somebody in this modality,

which we've all normalized completely.

623

So how would you ever know?

624

So again, those are, these are

things that many are thinking about.

625

And so you get to that level.

626

Yeah, that's a real challenge I would

think for coaching as an industry.

627

Because now, as an individual, I

could just define what is the exact

628

right look and tone of the individual

that I want to be on the screen with.

629

And then this individual has,

of course, unlimited access to

630

every right question and framing.

631

As AI's AGI develops, and maybe we

get to artificial superintelligence,

632

which is likely the scariest

future in my view anyways.

633

But even just getting to Artificial

General Intelligence where there's

634

a level of nuanced response that

this AI bot can just respond like

635

you and I are, mean, with empathy

and understanding and contextual.

636

And if it gets to the point where it

can actually pick up on facial, like

637

I see in all those things, then for

sure, it's absolutely a different game.

638

There's a consideration here

that is we think about coaching.

639

We think about that as a title

that sort of we broad stroke it.

640

And the truth is just a variety

of different types of coaching.

641

wonder if maybe in life coaching, which

is not something tend to do, like that

642

might be more at risk in terms of what

that industry looks like for humans.

643

It's possible, but it would require

that level of advancement, right?

644

Because that is the that life coaches

bring is that ability to really

645

see you connect with you, make you

feel seen and heard like genuinely.

646

And that to this point

requires a human being.

647

So I don't know if the technology

evolves or changes to enable that,

648

but I do think it'll augment.

649

I'm a real believer.

650

Like I'd said earlier, I use the tool

to coach me, not to coach my club.

651

I will record a transcript and say,

652

what did you hear me say?

653

What could I have done differently?

654

And it'll come up with recommendations.

655

Sometimes it's valid, but also

sometimes it's just a repeated thing.

656

But it's, that part of it, I

think is really worthwhile.

657

But again, to use it as a partner,

thought partner, terrific.

658

To replace coaching,

yeah, there's some risk.

659

We'll see how the technology

evolves over time.

660

Thomas Kunjappu: And then what

about in the world of from the CPO

661

chair and a people operations chair?

662

Have you conducted any experiments

leveraging AI or any examples where

663

it's made you or the team faster,

better, or failed experiments as well?

664

Andy Martiniello: Yeah, think if

I look at the broad body of work

665

that we've done, I ran a feedback

survey, call it the yield check and

666

we're playing on the agriculture.

667

Yeah.

668

And pulling that in all of the

insights and so running a helping to

669

frame out, okay, here's what we're,

here's what we want to know, right?

670

Here's the key things,

helping build a form, right?

671

So pretty simple, right?

672

So, you know, here it builds a form, fire

everything out, get all the inputs, right?

673

And now help me translate that, right?

674

So really understand what's the core

issue, extracting all those things.

675

And where I would say there's,

I wouldn't say failure because

676

I don't let AI run unchecked.

677

would never just go here, direct

connect between output and to audience.

678

But embedded in there for sure.

679

There's misinterpretations, lost tone.

680

I would say like some of the things that

it was recommends saying might be too

681

harsh for what the audience really needs.

682

And it misses that.

683

So anyway, interpreting all

of that output and then using

684

that into, here's the feedback.

685

Here's what I'm sending now to, and then

to run one more, say, what am I missing?

686

What should I watch out for?

687

And think about the context.

688

I'm saying to a group of people with

expectations, here's what we heard,

689

here's what we're suggesting, here's

some actions that we're gonna take.

690

What do I need to watch out for?

691

And it gives some obvious things.

692

Do the thing that you're saying

you're gonna do, so on and so forth.

693

But it's good to just, again, sense check.

694

All the way through.

695

And so it's helped build that out.

696

The exercise that I was talking about

earlier, that deep sort of interrogation

697

of the value chain, I use that to

then evolve into a structure using a

698

responsible team and informed, right?

699

So it's a version of sort of a RACI,

RTI, or it's actually the ROTI,

700

but I took out the ownership piece

just to make it more accessible to

701

the group that I'm working with.

702

So it's RTI framework,

responsible team and informed.

703

And so I said, okay, help

me start to frame this.

704

And again, using that as the first

iteration, because then I took it to

705

the humans and said, here's what I think

people should be responsible for and the

706

team should be responsible for, and here's

where the leader should be informed.

707

And what do you think?

708

Help me evolve this and make it real.

709

And so again, now it's almost like

the three of us as stakeholders, me,

710

AI, and the leadership team, we're

really working in collaboration

711

to co-create the final product.

712

And at this point, AI

took a backseat, right?

713

It's done its work.

714

Now it's us as a group of humans

coming together to say, okay, how

715

do we really make this come to life?

716

So if we need to understand this

particular critical leadership role

717

and through the lens of RTI, okay,

well, what are we making real?

718

And let's debate it and then agree to it.

719

So now going forward, we can all say this

role looks like this, and we all agreed.

720

We all, everyone had a voice.

721

And we brought that, but it was

such an enabler to accelerate that.

722

would say we could have done that work

without it, but it would have taken weeks

723

and weeks, maybe months versus days.

724

We've really got that thing done fast.

725

Thomas Kunjappu: Just an idea

based on what you're saying.

726

I wonder if there is an internal product

that could also be coming out of this

727

where I know the inputs initially are

private confidential interviews and

728

there's the transcript from that, but

then that is then translated through

729

a lot of conversations into a set

of intermediate output, which could

730

also then be part of an LLM, which

then anyone in the organization maybe

731

could interrogate for questions of

the moment where they're trying to

732

understand either poke holes at some

of the logic or continue to evolve it.

733

And it's almost like a shared

understanding of our strategy, right?

734

It's like this internal brain of

all these answers that we've spent

735

all this time drafting through all

these conversations and heavy thought

736

outside of the tooling itself.

737

Andy Martiniello: Love that idea, Thomas.

738

It's such a good, it's

such a good thought.

739

Like to even have a space where,

the questions are captured, right?

740

Because there's so much

insight in the question, right?

741

We start to see patterns and the

questions that people ask were the type of

742

questions or the language of the question.

743

And so how do we extract all that?

744

And I think there's an amazing

opportunity to do that.

745

This sort of knowledge base that doesn't

just sit there statically and go,

746

here's all of the things that were said.

747

It interprets it.

748

runs some analysis on it says,

Hey, catching this, we're

749

getting a lot of these questions.

750

I have to think that there's

that technology exists somewhere.

751

don't doubt it.

752

I mean, it's knowledge base is

attached to all our software platforms.

753

I'm imagining that they're already

well into leveraging AI for it.

754

But think internally within our

organization, if we could create that

755

connection, think it would, there

would be such a quick sort of input

756

output sort of response because we'd

be able to extract that and get signals

757

and patterns that we could start to.

758

Evolve, you know, where are

we focusing our attentions?

759

And what's more important?

760

How are we prioritizing it?

761

think that would be hugely

helpful and informative.

762

Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah, it's interesting.

763

The technology exists, but it's more

about the proprietary data, right?

764

That it takes a lot of time and

effort that what you've been talking

765

about in terms of getting out and

creating all this alignment around

766

across dozens and dozens of people.

767

That's like the little bit of

the secret sauce, I would think.

768

But then if I were to

say, let's look ahead.

769

So we've been talking about how

it's been impacting the work so far.

770

If you're looking ahead a little bit, but

not too far out, let's not talk about AGI.

771

I guess that's open for interpretation

around what that might look like,

772

but let's just say in the next two or

three years, what do you think it means

773

to have an AI native workforce and

especially people and strategy team?

774

What does that look like for you?

775

Andy Martiniello: I think it's,

really is staying curious as

776

to how do we pull this tool further in?

777

How do we really socialize

the value of what I'm doing?

778

And I'm already starting to see

it frankly, as the tools that I'm

779

using, I'm informally encouraging

others to start to do the same.

780

And we're seeing it

across the organization.

781

So I would say over the next two years,

what would be ideal is that we evolve

782

to this just becomes table stakes.

783

Even if we were to say, hold

it, freeze in time, the tools as

784

they stand today from a recording

perspective, what chat you need, so on.

785

Just doing this, but then again,

using some real thought around,

786

okay, but how do we use it?

787

Because I think we were to suddenly

just push that out to the whole complex

788

of all of our team and individuals.

789

I think people might start

to create some shortcuts.

790

They might misinterpret a

little bit of the value.

791

But I think if we slowly embed

this into here are the ways

792

in which we can accelerate.

793

So I'll give you an example actually

that's top of mind is that we're rolling

794

out a new platform, the CRM platform

that's really common in our industry.

795

And like all CRMs and all sales

teams, and I say this authentically,

796

having been in that seat for many

years, it's often a challenge to

797

get the data into the system, right?

798

It's one of the things that the

managers are always complaining.

799

It's got to be in the CRM, right?

800

And so immediately I think,

how can we even leverage the

801

tools into the most basic form.

802

Like how can we have our team

recording coming out of, so our

803

group works in farms, right?

804

So they go coming off the farm and before

you drive to the next farm, you say, hey,

805

here's what I just narrating what it is

that you experienced, what are the action

806

items and just having that immediately.

807

Obviously the transcript gets produced

immediately and then trying to

808

create a link as quickly as possible.

809

Still probably human link,

at least for now, right?

810

Prototype as we're inventing

it, to just say, extract the key

811

pieces, drop that into the CRM.

812

It's rudimentary, but

huge time savings, right?

813

And really, if this works, it

would create a level of sort

814

of efficacy in this, right?

815

Because that doesn't

necessarily always exist.

816

Because again, as salespeople,

we get caught up, we come out

817

of one meeting into the next.

818

I'm making this up.

819

I don't doubt that there's already

huge advancements out there with

820

recording devices and things

that are already happening.

821

I think that is an immediately

accessible way for us to integrate the

822

tools again, in its most basic form.

823

Then the next thing is how can we

get some kind of insights out of it?

824

How can it drive some ideas?

825

How can it make some connections between

what's in our inventory and what you

826

just said was important to this farmer

that you just spoke to and start to

827

drive things at you to say, Hey, are

you aware that over here in this part

828

of the broad complex, have physical

locations spread across Northern Ontario.

829

That you have an awareness

of what's happening there.

830

And instead of you having

to do the research, we're

831

leveraging AI to drive it at you.

832

Those are ways that while on the

surface of it, feel relatively easy

833

and accessible, boy, they would make a

huge difference in terms of our sales

834

cycle and then ultimately our success.

835

So I see it ranging from that to, again,

in the leadership space, doing the work

836

that I've been describing and really

expanding that to see what happens next.

837

Thomas Kunjappu: Absolutely.

838

So that's just a few

different ideas there.

839

I'm sure there's so many others

you'll have as clicks in the

840

moment and you're going through

all these different use cases.

841

If working folks connect with you

and he's LinkedIn, the best place or.

842

Andy Martiniello: That's

likely the best place.

843

have it on the long list of

things to do to build out a

844

Wednesday, but yeah, LinkedIn is

a great place to get ahold of me.

845

I'm always on it.

846

I'll certainly respond quickly.

847

Thomas Kunjappu: That's great.

848

I guess patterns drive all outcomes

and a lot of your coaching practice

849

that we went through in detail is

trying to surface those patterns.

850

We talked a little bit about how AI

can help in that process, but it's

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a part of the process and it's in

the analysis phase, not in the data

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collection or output phase or as much

in your workflows as I understand it.

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And thank you for that.

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We spent a lot of time talking about

how the coaching stance translates

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into the the people leadership role in

combination and the nuances there, which

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I think folks listening can appreciate

and take some insights around, as

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well as I think defined in depth what

it means to influence and or drive

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the strategy at the company level.

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And at some level, how it's really

about looking at the machine, the

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system in the same way that you

might as a coach for the people.

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And then it will inform

everything downstream.

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that's to me, it's a very practical

way to grab the proverbial seat

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at the table by having a lot of

influence and creating value.

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Thank you for going through that.

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There's a lot of opportunities for the

HR and people function to stay very

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relevant and make a big impact as we

steer through this revolution that we're

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in the midst of, because the common

thread around using analysis for AI for

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the analysis phase of so many different

tasks that you do, I think can help open

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up time to get us out into more strategic

activities on a day-to-day basis.

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With all that said, I want to say thank

you, Andy, and for this great conversation

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and for everyone out there who is

following along and future-proofing your

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own organizations, your own HR functions.

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Hope you had some.

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Great takeaways as I did from

this wonderful conversation.

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See you on the next one.

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Thanks so much, folks.

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Thanks for joining us on this

episode of Future Proof HR.

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If you like the discussion, make

sure you leave us a five star

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See you next time as we keep our pulse on

how we can all thrive in the age on AI.