Shownotes
An existential crisis prompted Murray Rodgers, an Alberta oilman, to seek answers at a spiritual retreat in Costa Rica. There, he discovered the transformative power of Ayahuasca, a plant medicine that helped him heal old wounds and grow as a leader. Inspired by this journey, Rodgers wrote The Psychedelic CEO, where he explores how psychedelics like Ayahuasca can unlock individuals’ full potential, not just personally but professionally as well. This life-changing experience ultimately led him to leave the oil industry and transition into starting cleaner sustainable initiatives, specifically in Hydrogen Energy.
In addition to being the author of 'The Psychedelic CEO', Murray Rodgers is currently a co-founder of Kingfisher Energy, a hydrogen exploration company, and is a co-producer of a pilot for new docuseries entitled “The Alpha Myth”. He also hosts retreats in Alberta and Costa Rica for business leaders.
Purchase 'The Psychedelic CEO'
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Transcripts
Leena M 0:00
Leena, welcome to up to so good, the podcast that unlocks the secrets of creating a purpose driven business so we can all make this world a better place. Come join the conversation. Hello and welcome to up to so good, the podcast that explores the purpose of business. I'm your host. Leena Monroe, it seems like the topic of psychedelics is everywhere. People are talking about the therapeutic benefits or the spiritual awakenings. Today's guest Murray Rodgers, he wrote the book, literally. He went from being an oil and gas executive to a transformed leader, and he documents his experiences in his book, The psychedelic CEO. Now before we get into the episode, I'd like to share a bit of a disclaimer. The content in this episode is meant to share opinions and experiences and is no way a reflection of any official stance of either all purpose or up to so good podcast. The purpose of this episode is to share and to explore, and we're not advocating for the use of any of this, if you choose to go down the path of working with psychedelics, please, please do your own research and only work with qualified professionals in that space. We are not doctors and we are not shamans, and I would suggest these types of things shouldn't be done recreationally, after many discussions in my own research, yeah, don't do this stuff on your own, and don't do it just for fun, but this episode is definitely going to be fun. So grab a cup of coffee, sit back and enjoy the episode. Hi and welcome to up to so good the podcast that explores the purpose of business. I'm your host, Leena Monroe, and today I have a very special guest, a very good friend of mine, as well as just someone I admire so so much. Murray Rodgers, the psychedelic CEO, welcome to our show.
Murray Rodgers 1:47
Thank you, Leena, delighted to be here.
Leena M 1:50
Well, I love that title, the psychedelic CEO. It is also the name of your book, and we'll be posting a link to the book, which is just awesome. I've read it. I love it. I feel like I got to know you just by reading the book before. I actually really got to know you. So why don't we just start there? What is the psychedelic CEO? Who are you? First of all, because your story is incredible.
Murray Rodgers 2:14
Well, the who I was and who I am are probably two different things, and the psychedelic CEO really was the bridge between two different states of being, if you will. I spent my career, bulk of my career, as a geologist, and working in oil and gas around the world and and being in a very capitalistic, dominant, patriarchal system, you know, and doing a lot of science and a lot of exploration around the world and creating energy in different countries and that sort of thing. But the paradigm was always just about making money at all costs, you know. And there wasn't a lot of attention or even awareness in the industry of the human cost. What were we really doing? What were we really accomplishing? And who were we in the middle of it all? It's there's really no attention paid to personal development, mental health, you know, well being and those types of things. Those were just simply not really spoken about. It was all about just getting the job done and really making money.
Leena M 3:19
And you're from Alberta. I'm picturing you as this oil and gas executive tycoon who was just like, you walk in a room and just, is that right? Is that how it was? Well, just
Murray Rodgers 3:29
tycoon may be the euphemism. But anyway, I wouldn't say tycoon, but we were all part of that culture of of, you know, really pushing hard, yeah, and more and more and more, bigger, better bro culture, isn't
Leena M 3:42
it? Yes, very much. Yeah,
Murray Rodgers 3:44
it was very much that, you know, the purpose of the book really was all about to examine the current leadership development business and how that pertains to corporate culture. And the fact is, is that a lot of leadership development programs don't really work, and so a lot of companies now have embraced leadership development and coaching and that type of thing, but the changes are not really being seen. So it's kind of like ESG, there's a lot of lip service being paid, and there's a lot of green washing, you know, goes on in terms of climate change and also just social programs and that type of thing. But the fact is, the behaviors typically aren't really changing that much, okay,
Leena M 4:23
but what, what happened, though, to prompt you to write the book The psychedelic CEO, because, because here you are. I mean, you were very successful and and, you know, I mean, were you happy? Well,
Murray Rodgers 4:34
that was the crux of it. Was, after all of that success, I found myself chronically depressed, drinking too much, feeling that the whole in that whole career trajectory had been quite pointless. Because why wasn't I happy? You know, after having achieved all of this, and certainly I had a went through a divorce and that type of thing. But many did, what occurred to me was that something had been missing all. Along in my striving, so in all of with all of my ambition, my desire to achieve, and those types of accomplishments, I had missed this whole part of myself. And so at a certain point, I kind of hit a wall, and I just stopped working and went into a very, you know, a deep phase of personal reflection. I went to my GP saying, you know, at one point, and said, Look, I'm chronically depressed here. I can't seem to do anything. And he said, Well, you know, most of my clients are guys like you type a behavior, very ambitious guys have worked in the corporate world their entire lives, and they're all on antidepressants. And he said, in fact, 40% of the male doctors in Calgary are on antidepressants, so you should take them. Oh, my. And I took one pill, and I just thought, I am not taking this because I felt terrible. And I thought, there has to be another way to crack this open, you know, whatever's going on internally. And shortly thereafter, a good friend of mine, coincidentally, I met in a coffee shop waiting for a cup of coffee. Said she was going to Costa Rica to do ayahuasca, which I've been reading about. And I said, Well, you know, let me know how it goes. And a couple of weeks later, she sent me a one word text, and all it said was, go.
Leena M 6:16
When was that? That was:Murray Rodgers 6:22
see, I see, okay, yeah. And so, because I needed to find a way to crack open this mystery of what was wrong with me, why did, why, after all the success, did I feel like such a failure? Yeah? And
Leena M 6:34
that's a shared feeling I think a lot of people have, yeah, you know you were, you were in the oil and gas world in Alberta. I mean, that just feels like a different beast. But in any industry, you've got people who are striving for success, and they are successful, like you mentioned, doctors, doctors, lawyers, all these traditional careers or non traditional, yeah, and they're not happy, but they've got money, they've got houses. Some have marriages, some have failed marriages, yeah, not happy,
Murray Rodgers 6:59
yeah. And I saw among my peers that it was quite common for people to, especially among the men that I knew, a lot of men had similar issues that I had, and they just kept it to themselves and kind of coped, you know, tried to find ways to cope with more money or drinking or whatever, but there was a deeper sense of dissatisfaction. And so, yeah, I felt it was time to do some personal work, and I didn't want to take antidepressants. So the plant medicine Avenue really appealed to me, because it seemed like it was natural,
Leena M 7:31
u that you described prior to:Murray Rodgers 7:52
well, you know, it's interesting, though. I mean, the attributes that I had that were positive, not everything was negative in those days. I mean, you know, ambition, wanting to do well on self improvement, wanting to excel at something. Yes, I haven't lost any of those attributes. It's just that who I am in the middle of it, the reason I do those things now has changed dramatically, because for me, I've been driven by a need for recognition, a need to be special, need to be seen in a certain light, you know, because I lacked those intrinsic feelings about myself, you know, I had an inner lack, and that was the obsessive workaholism and that type of thing. Yeah, so what's changed now is that I'm much more at peace with who I am, but I can now set about to do things that matter to me, with the same desire to do well or to, you know, have a positive outcome, but I'm not tied to that. It doesn't affect my inner well being.
Leena M 8:46
Just, you know, the fact is that there are all these tools available, right? And, I mean, if you're listening and you want a place to start, I'd say, start with Murray's book, The psychedelic CEO, what a beautiful book, because you you put so many of your own learnings. I feel like I felt like I was really there with you. You know, you talked about, I think you also talked about past lives. You talked about what you saw. You talked about your life in the before, times before and then and after, and out how it how you integrated these lessons. Because, like, I think some people have this impression that you do this thing once and then, so what it's like? No, it's not like that. I mean, if you choose the plant medicine path, there's beautiful integration work that's that's also important to do, and seeing it, seeing your life change as a result of you changing, is just beautiful. It's very powerful. But tell us what it actually feels like in a Ayahuasca ceremony? What's that like? Well,
Murray Rodgers 9:41
I can only speak from personal experience, but basically, you fall off a cliff into a territory that is completely unknown to you in your daily life. And for me, there was one of my initial experiences. Was a past life review. It was one. Where it was like a near death experience, whereby you're actually shown all the things that have happened to you through your life, but also the things you've done to others. You're accountable. You develop an accountability to realize that it wasn't just you as a victim of things. It's like you perpetuated things as well. You have to own that so there's this deep reckoning with your own humanity, but out of that comes forgiveness of others and yourself. That's unexpected, because I think most of us go into these experiences thinking, Well, I'm going to get helped, and I'm going to get shown beautiful things, and, you know, and it's all going to be, you know, a pretty sweet ride. And in fact, there is a very hard aspect of accountability as well, and out of that comes humility. And the other thing too, that I found most striking in all of those experiences was when something fearful comes to mind, or an image comes to you that's that's frightening, if you breathe into it and surrender to love, it always transforms life, which was a real teaching is that no matter how frightening an experience is in that journey, in behind it is love, yes. And so there was a great teaching in that about opening your heart again and again and again and experiencing love,
Leena M:right? I think, I think many of us who've had these experiences with plant teachers have a very similar story, yeah. I definitely do, yeah. I definitely do, yeah.
Murray Rodgers:It's fascinating that that so that writing the book. When I came out of two weeks of doing ayahuasca, I was, I was like, What a great leadership development tool. This is because the amount of self awareness that you gain from doing this is extraordinary. And no leadership development program really achieves that. And I thought this is so efficient. It's such an efficient tool to gain self knowledge, self awareness, and maybe re contextualize some of the wounds that had motivated us Yes, in the first place, right?
Leena M:And that's actually one of the most compelling themes in your book is exploring that wounded leader. Yeah, right. Let's talk a little bit about that. But what is this wounded leader concept?
Murray Rodgers:Well, I think it's not just leaders. I think it's just humans. We all carry traumas. We all carry experiences that shape us, and a lot of times, it moves into the subconscious it becomes a subconscious drive. And so we end up at a certain place in life wondering, how did we get here? What was the underlying motivation for that? And oftentimes it was some deep rooted pain or wound or experience, you know, that we tried to cope with. And so sometimes it's a reaction to something in the past that led us to this present place, so that sense that something's wrong or missing, that when we get to that place of success is we haven't recognized what the wound really was, or what was that traumatic event. The psychedelic experience allows you to gain a window into that and to reframe it
Leena M:absolutely, to finally look at it, to see it, to address it, to reframe it, to deal with it. Yeah, but I think the the idea, and you're right, I feel like I agree that that comment resonates, that everyone has these wounds. So it isn't just the wounded leader, but the wounded leader as a concept that's very troubling, because our social and, you know, our corporate institutions, the government institutions, are run by leaders. Like leadership is very important, yeah. And so when you have a wounded leader, you will likely have a very wounded organization,
Murray Rodgers:yeah, yeah. I think that's, I think there's, there's a lot of truth to that, and I can use my own personal experience that I think there was a direct correlation between the degree of woundedness I had and the amount of ambition that I had. And that's, that's a controversial subject. I mean, I've said that to several
Leena M:people. I That's powerful. The degree of woundedness you had was
Murray Rodgers:directly proportional to the amount of ambition that I had, and so I speak personally on that one, but I have had conversations, not always pleasant conversations, with other other men that I know about that I will say things like, you know, the deeper the wound, the greater the ambition, the greater the desire to own a whole bunch of stuff and to have more money. I think there's a correlation. And I've had a lot of I've had a lot of guys, like, literally push back very hard on that, say that just isn't me. That's not true. I'm like, wow,
Leena M:that's these volumes, yeah, doesn't it? Yeah, wow, yeah, yeah, that that actually does resonate. I think that's really powerful.
Murray Rodgers:Well, it certainly was the case for me. I can't say it applies to every other person, for sure, but it was the case for me. I could directly correlate that I kept trying to compensate for the wound by doing more. Yes, having more. Yes.
Leena M:I know of people in my own life that are deeply wounded and deeply ambitious, and for them, like it. Might not manifest that way for a lot of people, but some people that I know that are very accomplished, accomplished in the outside sort of world, have a lot of money, a lot of assets, but my goodness, the wounds are so deep there. And you kind of wonder, okay, so what is the motivation? What's driving you? Yeah,
Murray Rodgers:and you know, it's, it's not one size fits all, for sure, but I think that doing this type of work is so useful for anyone to just gain a window and a bit more self awareness about who we are and how we've gotten to where we've gotten to. Yeah, and I'm not saying it's a direct correlation for everyone, but I think this is a really powerful tool to gain self awareness, because one of the here's the thing about the leadership industry, it's been studied to death. And leadership has been studied to death by, you know, Harvard Business School and Stanford and all the big universities around the world have departments that study all of this. So there's tremendous amount of research, which I cover in my book, and the conclusions again and again and again, and again, where leadership development programs generally don't work for a couple of reasons, and those reasons are generally they don't create an avenue for self knowledge, true self knowledge for those leaders who are taking the program, and they won't challenge the ego based issues of power and control and fear that most people carry, and so as a result, there's no transformation that really occurs in most leadership development programs. Tools are created, awareness is created, new knowledge is conveyed, all of which is valuable. I went through programs like that. My companies did as well. It was valuable to get these insights, but I didn't fundamentally change evaluated my people, right? So psychedelics, you know, are one tool which can foster a real, fundamental change in self awareness and ego, yeah, and facilitate healing and facilitate whatever context that means to be individual, yeah, absolutely.
Leena M:But that wounded leader, that wounded leader phenomenon, like, you know, the research that you cite in your book, and just the research that's been done out there, that research has been done, these things are being studied by people who are also wounded, no, so I wonder then, I mean, is there a sort of a cap in terms of the learnings that we can really
Murray Rodgers:Yes, because the real leadership occurs in understanding your own truth, your own journey, your own story, and you be. You learn to lead yourself. Leadership is about leading yourself and managing yourself and understanding yourself and so you hopefully then are perpetuating more good than harm on those around Yes, I think that's the job of the leader of self knowledge. Absolutely,
Leena M:absolutely. Well, imagine the leader who is not motivated by ego driven ambition and power and control, because those wounds are now healed. So then now what is that leader motivated by it is the good, I hope anyway, the good of community, of people, of the people that they lead. You know, that's that's a very powerful way and a very important way for companies, then to have purpose, for people, to have purpose, for people to be up to so good. You know, you want to sing it. You
Murray Rodgers:want me to sing it.
Leena M:Don't you want to marry after your experiences, and you wrote your book you were after so good. So now you have your psychedelic experiences, you know. And you've worked with the plant teachers, and I've, we've worked on these things together too. So this is really beautiful. I love that you're, you're open about your story. I mean, your published author, you talk about it in your book. It in your book. But how has that? How has that changed you then, and your leadership style? I
Murray Rodgers:think I've become less, less involved in what's going on in a way where I'm I'm not the subject of the endeavor. I'm a facilitator of the endeavor. So in a way, I've become kind of invisible, at least in my own inner experience of it. It's not about me. It's not about you know, am I having influence or not having influence? It's am I able to facilitate the endeavor in a way that allows everyone to shy and and so I've taken myself out of the equation, so it's more like I'm just a servant to the situation. Yeah, you know, and that's very different, because in the past, I wanted it to be all about me, and
Leena M:so many leaders do, yeah? I think yeah, this mindset of servant leadership is actually you've heard that term, so
Murray Rodgers:yes, I have, and I think it's a great term. Yeah. And the thing with psychedelics too is that I think it refines your intuition. It gets your own ego blocks out of the way, and allows one to become much more empathetic to those around them and more sensitive to the dynamics of the group, and also in a way. May you be able to you can interpret more accurately where the other people are at because your own stuff is not in the way. So you can feel if another person is is upset, or you can feel if their ego is pushing. You can feel if there's some kind of dysfunction guiding or action, yeah, and then you can act more appropriately and and help the situation in a more constructive way.
Leena M:Yes, I 1,000% agree with that. I mean, that's how I found that has worked in my own life. You also chat talk about in your book, and I also just love this, your view of Mother Earth, and I think it's a view that I wish more people had and to go from oil and gas and that aspect of what the earth was to this new version. Can you talk a bit about that?
Murray Rodgers:One of the common research findings from all the psychedelic research that's been done around the world now, and there's dozens and dozens papers written by very respective neuroscientists and researchers now, one of the common outcomes of psychedelics, whatever type it is, whether it's ayahuasca, DMT or mushrooms, LSD or any of them, is almost uniformly an outcome is that people come out of an experience like this, feeling more connected to the earth. And that doesn't matter. That's irrespective of who they are in what part of the world they've done it, you know what their age, stage, social status, cultural reality is, they feel more connected to the planet, which is a really extraordinary outcome in its own right. So if that's all that happens after a psychedelic experience, that's a profound outcome, absolutely. And for me, I've always worked with the earth. You know, in oil and gas, I'm a scientist. I love the Earth. Love solving there's problems. And you'll find that most geoscientists, or people that work in the industry are at heart, real environmentalists. Love the earth and care about it, and love the problems, solving the problems of the earth. And but what, what changed for me was the overprint of what is the industry, the industry's viewpoint of the earth, you know, it's not here to serve us necessarily. We're here to serve Yeah, and so we have to find a different way of relating to, you know, the earth and the world around us. So that and that speaks to better environmental practices, better you know, we conduct ourselves in a more appropriate way, where we respect the planet. And so it's led me to start a new company which is exploring for natural hydrogen, which is a form of energy that the Earth creates, and it is truly clean. And so I'm still in the energy business. I'm still working with geology and understanding the mysteries of Mother Earth, but I'm also working at finding out how to extract pure, clean forms of energy that are less harmful to the planet. Incredible
Leena M:to go from the extractive oil and gas, traditional ways of solving our problems, right, recognizing loving the earth as in, you know, this is our home to all of a sudden having that mindset shift. You know, this is more than just our home. You know, we are here. It's not here to serve us. We are here to serve it. And we do need to take care of this beautiful planet and going to space of now natural energy sources. That's a huge shift.
Murray Rodgers:Yeah, and oil and gas are natural energy sources too. They're from the degradation of plants. I mean, they the mother Mother Earth has created everything we need to not only survive, but to flourish. But we've, we've, in a sense, kind of misused some of those gifts. And so now it's like understanding the mystery of the planet to find out what other resources are available to us that are less harmful,
Leena M:right? You're right. Oil and gas is also it does come from other Earth, I agree. But I feel like we have just really perverted the use and the mist we've misused it. You know, the the burning of the fossil fuels, and how that's affecting our our air over consumption, just in general,
Murray Rodgers:and consumption and man's, man's incessant need for more is really the problem. It's, it's our need for cons to consume more and more that leads to our desire for more energy, right? So again, what this experience with plant medicine has done for me is to realize that, you know, in a lot of cases, we have more than enough, and we don't need to, we don't need to acquire more and more and more. So in a way, it creates a more balanced perspective of the human How much do we actually need to be happy and to be constructive human beings? Well,
Leena M:it allows us also to go deeper and sort of examine, why do we need more and more, just as you were talking about it before, what does that void, that thing that we're trying to feel by just buying and consuming, buying and consuming growth for the sake of growth? Yeah, you know, so. And
Murray Rodgers:that question is, is the perfect question, and that goes to what, of course, the shamans would call the wound. You know, the wounded human has an incessant knee. To fill up that void and to to mask the woundedness, and that's through consumption,
Leena M:as opposed to exploring that void, right, you know, and healing it and healing it and finding out. So what, what do you think is the the right thing, after all this, this work with the plant teachers and your experiences and like such a shift life, shift that you've made in terms of your work that you do now, being a writer, being an author, and working in clean energy spaces. It's a very big shift from being an oil and gas executive. And so what would you say are the things that do fill that void? And I'm going to make the assumption that you were able to fill in some of that void and heal the main
Murray Rodgers:thing is helping others see that there are very efficient pathways to understand themselves and to to gain, healing, understanding, self knowledge in a in a very efficient way, such that their lives begin to be less about filling in The filling in the gap, and they're more fulfilled just in their own right, just by being, just by being, you know, and so by helping to host retreats and organizing, you know, different types of consciousness sessions, not just plant medicine, but, you know, through breath work and through music and sound, and many different modalities, I find I can help others just see that there are tools you can avail yourselves of that will help you be less dissatisfied, yeah, and therefore, hopefully less acquisitive. Absolutely, yeah, more inquisitive and maybe less acquisitive. You know,
Leena M:how is purpose and your own purpose and work purpose? How do those things? How do they relate to each other? Well,
Murray Rodgers:if, in my case, if my purpose, if my purpose has become self knowledge, self management, doing less, doing more good than harm on the planet, that's my purpose. So everything I do has those tenets involved in it, and so it allows me to approach things in a much more measured way. That's, you know, that's less motivated by what's it doing for me, it's more like, what is the impact it's having on others. It's my sphere of influence. And the other thing is, is we all have a sphere of influence. It can be just one person, it can be just your family or your friends, your community. It's focusing and narrowing into a sphere of influence that I can really affect, you know, a positive change and and letting that be enough, so not taking on some grand project, trying to save the world and that type of thing, it's really refining it down to what is my sphere of influence, and can I affect that every day in a positive way? Oh, I love that. So there's kind of a humility about it, as opposed to a grandiose vision,
Leena M:and you take that in, I assume, into your businesses, yeah, your new businesses, yeah. Are you able to tell us the name or anything more about the new energy company?
Murray Rodgers:Yeah, the company's private company. It's called Kingfisher energy. And I have, there's five founding partners, all very, very senior, experienced international oil and gas people that all share the same mindset. We have really very little patience for the way things have been done in the past, and we're trying to do things differently, and we're galvanized around the new science of how to explore for hydrogen
Leena M:and actual clean energy. Yeah, yeah.
Murray Rodgers:It's a very exciting thing. It's new, it's risky, a lot of unknowns, but it's what we've done our entire lives anyway, on the oil and gas side. So we're just taking some of those tools and some of those experiences and applying it to different aspects of the earth on
Leena M:a scale of one to 1010. Being enlightenment. We're talking Buddha level enlightenment. One being. I'm not going to throw myself in front of a bus, but if one hits me, I'm fine with that scale of one to 10. Where before these experiences before 2019, where would you usually rate yourself approximately,
Murray Rodgers:with 10 being enlightenment, one being completely self absorbed? Is that kind of the idea? I suppose, sure, yeah. Was probably in the in the one to three, going to three. You know, in that lower level, I was thinking of myself first
Leena M:interesting, yeah, I remember that this the scale helped me a lot, because I actually was able to sort of measure where I sat. I was in 456, I was very middle of the road, kind of bored with life, four or five, six before these experiences. So now, where are you at now?
Murray Rodgers:Well, I'd like to say 10, but of course, I'm not, probably between six, probably between six and six and eight, I would say, I mean, I love being alive. Yes, I'm thankful to be alive, yeah, which was a huge change for me, because I spent my entire life in a low grade depression, up to the point, up to this, the point that I did all of this work. I think a lot of people do you know getting out of bed every morning thinking, when is this going to be over? Oh, my so that is no longer present. So that's a massive. Change right there. And so I covered that up with just excessive workaholism and other bad behaviors. And so now it's like life is full of wonderful opportunities to to grow and to do good and meet incredible people like you and and to do good things. So yeah, it's wonderful
Leena M:to hear that. 67678, yeah, I feel like I too. Am at home, higher up. I'm around 789, I am. There are days where I had nine. There's some inexplicable days where I'm like, what? I'm not even on any drugs, but I'm just feeling so good, yeah, um, so good. Yes, yeah, but um, the before five, six was actually my more normal. And from what I observed, I felt like a lot of people were possibly in the 456, more four and five. And I remember when I made a big shift in my life, like I just threw caution to the wind, because life was just terrible in that 456, terrible, terrible, terrible zone, just like not a good personal relationship, not a good not the job that really fulfilled my purpose, also having that void before I could ever really hit really low, I hung on to meditation, and that helped me a lot. And I found just going inward. But you know what? The majority I feel, the majority of society, so many people live in those places. Under that six mark, there's somewhere, and that's like the default, and that's really sad. And it doesn't have to be that way. Life is so beautiful, it's so short, it's so precious. You don't waste time living in a state that's below that, 456, or whatever. Like you, we're worth it. It's worth it to pursue whatever you need to stay in those higher states, and it's possible, actually possible, and
Murray Rodgers:that's the key, it's possible, but the purpose initially is to find a tool that works for you to get through to that so that you can actually live in a higher state of joy and and move out of that. And of course, use the term default. And of course, most of the neuroscience research around psychedelics talks about the fact that it disrupts the default mode network in the brain, which is the five nodes in the brain which lead to our habitual ways of experiencing day to day life, and a psychedelic experience disrupts that circuitry, throws it into a state of entropy or chaos or for a short period of time, and allows us to reframe our life. And that is an elegant pathway to break that pattern of feeling that life has no purpose and life is dull and it's boring and repetitious and I can't wait for it to be over. So that's a very elegant way for that to occur. You know, effective breath work will do the same thing. So you don't have to do psychedelic meditation. Meditation can do it. Yeah,
Leena M:that's sacred chanting from our culture, the
Murray Rodgers:two most immediate things from my experience of breath work and psychedelics actually to cause that almost instant disruption of that circuitry, but then you have a chance of really experiencing joy and so and then out of that comes the purpose, or a sense of purpose. I think, yes, you know, because it's, it's, you can't prescribe purpose to people until they have the feeling of purpose. That's a feeling state. It's an interesting feeling state, right? So the thing is, is that I think what I try to do is encourage people, saying, here's some tools that can get you very quickly to your feeling of purpose, you know, and joy and
Leena M:joy, and what I'm not talking about, I mean, I don't think we're talking about the joy that just comes from that instant gratification of, you know, a few drinks on the weekend, because that can be joyful for some. You know, it's when it becomes the crutch or abuse
Murray Rodgers:it was for me. I mean, you know, I was a weekend binge drinker. I mean, that was where the joy was was, you know, it's going party, you know, kind of thing, but then you're back to the same state, yeah, in your daily life,
Leena M:worse or worse, yeah. So I think that that's a crutch for a lot of people, yeah, as well as zoning out and just watching Netflix, yeah, you know, and really just tuning out life. And I mean, I just to be on the other side of it, though. Isn't it amazing? It is amazing. Isn't life just, yeah, life is just so lovely, especially when it's filled with purpose. Well, it
Murray Rodgers:right? It really is, you know, and it one of the biggest changes for me is that when, when I go into my local coffee shop, I know the baristas, so, Hi, how you doing? I always say fantastic. And I would never, in my old life, have said that ever. I would never say life was fantastic, because I felt it wasn't, you know, that's okay, or, you know, fine, but, but now it's completely different. And so, you know, that's just, you know, the blessing of having done some work, yes, and, you know, opening up the wound,
Leena M:so to speak. And it doesn't mean things are perfect, like, I know, my own experience, and we talked about this even before the show. We talked about how we're always doing work, always, but it's just, there's something that that that's, I don't know, it's just so. Much life, so much more rich. It's almost like being able to see more colors, yeah. You know, really enjoy
Murray Rodgers:exactly the work never stops. The work, yeah, no, but, but it can become joyful. And also the awareness that it's not supposed to stop. This is we just constantly evolve and grow and constantly change,
Leena M:and that's part of the purpose. And, you know, every person that one talks to that has these experiences, and here, you know, there's also a lot of beautiful experiences people have with other psychedelics, such as mushrooms or San Pedro. But often you'll hear these stories very similar, that it is about, not a fun necessarily. You know, happy, happy thing. It's really it is work, and that's okay, that often you don't always get what you want, but you'll always get what you need. Yeah, and set and setting are very important, though very important, right, right? Talk about that.
Murray Rodgers:Yeah, safety, safety is everything. And that's a research finding. It's common sense, but it's also research finding that that if the setting in which person does that journey is really set up very well for safety and support the person will have, you know, a positive outcome, no matter how challenging the experience is, if it's not a safe setting. And you hear this all the time, I bet in my generation, the baby boomers, almost everybody had some kind of traumatic experience with mushrooms or LSD and alcohol in high school, right? You run across that comment so many times they're like, I'll never touch it again, because that really freaked me out. Yes, what was the wrong setting? Absolutely, and it was a mix of substances, the wrong music, yes, the wrong people, yes, the whole thing. And absolutely, you're gonna have a terrible experience, of course, if that appears, but if it's done in with a sacred or a therapeutic overprint, yes, the chances of having a positive outcome are also on the percent. Absolutely.
Leena M:I mean, I totally agree, and I feel like that is something that we can't stress enough that if people want to try this as a as one of the tools, right? It's not the only one. I mean, there's so many other things. Meditation is deeply helpful and healing, and yoga and all these other gorgeous practices are there. Reading about all kinds of people in their their own experiences with consciousness is also very, very valuable and very important. But I can't stress enough that people should really be careful about accessing things like, say, mushrooms, and going out and just by themselves, just just taking a big dose, or, like you said, music is really important, and just playing any old music, it's not like that, you know, sacred and or therapeutic, absolutely. And you know, making sure that that that is is deeply safe will result in a good a good experience. Yeah,
Murray Rodgers:the safety is critical. And you mentioned the music thing, and another clinical finding from from research that's being done is that the music that's played in one of these experiences is almost 50% of the therapeutic outcome. Ah, really, yeah, so the music is absolutely critical to a positive experience. Wow. And that, that in itself, is interesting, of course, in the in the indigenous traditions, you know, in the Amazon, they would the spirits would create the songs the caros, and they would sing, shamans would sing throughout the experience. And it would be your own unique song that would come through, in a spiritual sense, but there are a lot of any kind of music can be very, very powerful if it has meaning for the individual, but it has to be carefully curated and thought about too
Leena M:absolutely, yeah, deeply uplifting, spiritual music, and my experience has probably been some of the best as the background for a lot of this. But I think it also really does vary from participant to participant because of their their background, their lineage, yeah. And, you know, working with actual shamans, I mean, that's, that's probably the most, most powerful way to work with much of this. And so what was that like? Because you work with several shamans, yeah,
Murray Rodgers:it's a very powerful experience to work with, you know, traditional shamans, and they're basically doctors. They're, you know, they've been doing it since they were children. And so they're very, very practiced at creating a sacred setting and holding space for large groups of people, small or large groups of people, the music and the ritual and the power that they bring and the presence that they bring to it is really quite profound. It's a big part of the successful outcome of the experience, absolutely,
Leena M:and you know, and that also goes to if they have trained facilitators that are, maybe are not of their background. What I've noticed is those fatal facilitators will hold out where they've been trained and what their lineage is and that they are facilitators. So be very careful about going to just, you know, Shaman Chad, who had just called himself a shaman, no, no, nope, right away. That's not up to so good, yeah.
Murray Rodgers:Well, there's a big difference between a shaman in an Iowa scaro And I was scared. Someone that's trained to serve the medicine, but they're not yet a shaman, because a shaman is like our equivalent of a medical doctor, right? They've had the training, yes, and the so called spiritual certification, and a lot of people do pose and call themselves shamans, or even Iowa scares, and they shouldn't be serving the medicine at all. Yeah? You know, I would never serve Ayahuasca. I would not qualified, no, to do any of that. You know, all I can do is point someone in the right direction, saying those are people you should work
Leena M:with. Yes, yeah. So you had all these sort of epiphanies when you worked with the plant medicine, but you had also said that you had done about eight ceremonies over the course of two weeks, right? And so was it a gradual process, this awakening started happening, or was it at the end of those two weeks? How did that work
Murray Rodgers:for you? It was not a linear process. Every ceremony was different, but I was introduced to many of the fundamental issues that had been a problem for me throughout my life, starting with my birth, where my mother and I had nearly died when I was being born because my head was too big, and they pulled me out with forceps, and she was bleeding to death, and we both nearly died, and I'd had a low grade depression my entire life and a feeling I should not be alive, and I never understood that. And during an Ayahuasca journey, it was shown to me that, in fact, that was not my voice, that was my mother's voice. She wanted to die during childbirth because she was in so much pain, and I had internalized her voice. And that was revealed to me through the Ayahuasca experience, and I never ever revisited that terrain again. After having that experience, I felt joy about being alive, and I felt really good about being part of a human experience. So that was incredible. Did
Leena M:you know prior to going in that your mother had had a difficult I knew
Murray Rodgers:the facts of it, but she never spoke about it, never spoke about any of the emotion around it or anything. So I just knew it was a fact, but I didn't know any impact it had on her or me emotionally. So that was one that my father came from a line of alcoholics. I was introduced to that whole ancestral trauma that had led to my grandfather and my father being alcoholics, and in fact, I was placed in their reality so I could experience what it was like for them and what the source of their trauma was and what led to their alcoholism, and that allowed me to create to experience true forgiveness of my own father, my grandfather, and to understand that there was this ancestral trauma that had come through the male side of the family and had affected me as well. So that was a whole other night of ayahuasca, where it was just dealing with my father, grandfather, the male part of my lineage. And there was another experience whereby I was my I went through what they call ego death, where you do literally feel like you're dying. And all that really means is that your known structure, your way of being psychologically, has been opened up, and you're letting go of all of that. And that's primarily the loss of control that people fear before they do one of these journeys. It's they feel they're going to die if they lose control, or they lose a sense of who they think they are. In fact, that's what needs to happen to have your whole spiritual being opened up. And so then I went through that experience. And then what happened was that I was, it was like the universe opened up for me with all these stars. And I was looking through like a grid now, where I could see all these stars, but there was like this structure around me, and what was shown to me, what the medicine told me was you now have a divinely infused ego. It means you need an ego to survive on this planet. You need to be able to protect yourself and do things. So you need to have a sense of yourself. But it's now infused by a spiritual or divine aspect. So it's not this closed container of small ego. And that was another experience I had. And so these, these unfolded, like I say, not in a linear way, but through the course of eight different journeys. And that was the equivalent about three and a half full days in in deep psychedelic experience over that eight week or that two week period. So it was a lot of medicine and a lot of work that was done so and you know, sometimes there was just great beauty, sometimes there's great pain and sorrow, lots of vomiting and purging, because Ayahuasca is a purgative. And so what you're shown is that, the more you in my case, any time I lied to myself, I was asked a question by the medicine, and you would say, is this true, or is this not true? If I lied to myself, I would vomit, but if I spoke the truth, I would not. And so it kept me accountable to my own truths. Oh,
Leena M:that's amazing. Wow. It's so beautiful. Because everyone you speak to that works with these plant teachers is going to have a different experience, but one that is so incredibly perfectly tailored to what they they have needed their whole lives, you know. And there's also some common threads, you know, like I too, have seen my own parents and their wounds and traumas and what they went through and why they did, and it just is sort of different from yours. But the similar thing was, it just evokes so much love and compassion and gratitude that they're my parents, yeah. And also that question of, why, like I I feel like there are many things that sometimes you're shown that we're able to just connect the dots and and recognize why things have happened a certain way versus why they haven't just everything just makes so much sense, yeah, doesn't it? Yeah, when you're in the place of the medicine, well,
Murray Rodgers:it does. And, you know, even on the business side, you know, there was so much information shown to me in terms of things that were challenging for me as a business leader that actually originated in my childhood, like my fear of confronting my father, who was a violent alcoholic, manifested I couldn't take on my board of directors and argue a case that I knew was the right case for the company, because I was afraid of the repercussions so when, in fact, I had projected onto the board of directors my relationship with my father, and that was shown to me during an Ayahuasca journey, yeah, how that deep wounding had led to some of the weaknesses that I had as a leader.
Leena M:Yeah, absolutely. See, like, it really is, like, like therapy, a lot of therapy, intense therapy, in a short amount.
Murray Rodgers:It really is. It's very concentrated. People shouldn't be afraid to look at themselves, because it's a magical journey and it's full of wonderful surprises. So anytime you feel resistance or fear or that sense of, I don't want to lose control, just surrender to it, because there's so much beauty and love in behind all of that. Well,
Leena M:it was super important for me to have you on this podcast, because the podcast is called up to so good, really inspiring people to elevate themselves and their businesses, right and explore the purpose of business, but I think we can't do that unless we explore our own purpose. And in meeting you, you're so inspiring and a kindred spirit, and I feel like you're one of the most purposeful individuals I've ever met, that you've really found your purpose, and you help inspire others to find theirs, given where you are in, in terms of your elevated understanding of what leadership now is, and you're healing many of your wounds. What is that like when you work, maybe with others who are not quite there? That's
Murray Rodgers:a great question. When I first came back from my the original two weeks in Costa Rica, after having done the Ayahuasca before I wrote the book, I was on a board of directors of a company and and I remember being on a board call. It was during COVID, and so we weren't physically present, but I was on a it was just a conference call. We weren't even on zoom at the time, but I was listening to all the voices and the perspectives that the board members have had, and I remember thinking to myself, these guys are all mentally ill, and that was my first like, I could not not say that to myself, because I had been, I had done eight Ayahuasca journeys in two weeks, and then I was thrown into this board call, and the perspectives around was just money and just greed and maneuvering, and the level of discourse was was so stark, in contrast to what I had experienced discordant two weeks ever since, discordance was unbelievable, but obviously I've softened my my stats, And since then, of course, I have a lot of compassion for people, and I can feel where they're at. And I just try to work with that. I try to work with that because I can feel that a lot of it's fear based. A lot of the things that we, you know, in business, that we tend to see is kind of distorted or discordant. In fact, rooted in fear, yes. And so knowing that it allows me to feel compassion and kind of work with that, as opposed to
Leena M:against it, you kind of meet people where
Murray Rodgers:they're at, yeah, meet people where they're at, yeah. And then hopefully there's a way to maybe bring it along to a little bit of a different level. But the judgment has been removed. There's just a feeling sense now, of where, say, where the the room is at. Is this a fear based conversation, or is it something else? And that allows me to then adjust to that circumstance. So
Leena M:after, after the experiences you've had, you've written your book, you've changed, you know, the kind of business you were. Now, what does it take to make a good CEO?
Murray Rodgers:I think humility, self awareness, a great sense of humor, and the knowledge that you're dispensable. I
Leena M:love that again. Humility, self awareness, good sense of humor, great sense of humor, great sense of humor, and the
Murray Rodgers:knowledge that you're dispensable, or your job should be to become dispensable. That means you've served your people well enough that they have all the tools they need to excel. Yes,
Leena M:I want to add compassion and kindness to that. You know, having that compassion is so important, the empathy so important. You know, I feel like here at all purpose, I feel like we embody a lot of those principles, but I know that within our leadership team, we do work a little differently, a little more aligned with you. I think I feel it anyway, and I think it makes all the difference. Yeah,
Murray Rodgers:I think it does make whole difference. And you do hit on a great point, like kindness, you know, kindness or compassion and empathy those kind of wrapped up in one. You know that, for me, comes out of humility. You know, humility is a very broad umbrella from where I sit, and it incorporates those but I'm glad you mentioned those words, because I think that is a really that can be in short supply. You know, when there's a lot of fear that's driving the enterprise, kindness and empathy tend to fall by the wayside. That's true.
Leena M:Yeah, it's true. Being able to hear someone in their point of view and where they're coming from, yeah? And having compassion empathy for that, you know, it's because the in business we're not always going to align, yeah? And having space for those kinds of conversations without any concern that there's ulterior motives, where people have each other's backs, where it's very safe, yeah? Think executive teams that work that way. Oh, my goodness. I mean, yeah, we know that feeling
Murray Rodgers:well. And that's another, another finding on the research on leadership. One of the limitations of most development programs is they don't teach leaders how to create an environment of psychological safety so that people in the organization are safe to be themselves and to express themselves as human beings. So you hit on another really important point, and so that comes with with this idea of serving your people. You know, in a lot of let's say in the oil and gas business, discussions around mental health were never, ever had, ever you wouldn't even use that term back in the day when I was in the industry, and I think things have probably changed a lot now. But again, you know, there are lots of, lots of studies done on companies that really focus on the well being and so called mental health, but mental well being of their people are more profitable. You think about that for a minute, yeah. Like, that's like, if you're all about the money, you'd be well served to serve your people and their well being and make that your mission, they will make you more money.
Leena M:You hear that people listening or watching. You know, if you want all the money, yeah, take care of the people, yeah, if you want more money, it affects the bottom
Murray Rodgers:line. Absolutely. Like, that's an incredible idea, yeah, yeah,
Leena M:it is, yeah. The short term thinking is the one that doesn't think about the mental health, right?
Murray Rodgers:One of the companies that I helped build, which was a unique company in Calgary, and we had a wonderful team of executives. It certainly wasn't just me, but we only had five people quit. It were a five year period, and we had, you know, hundreds of employees and 1000 consultants, and were spending like half a billion dollars a year, and we had almost no turnover, and that that was because of all of these principles I was talking about, that was even before I got into plant medicine. So some of these things, I think, that were that we're talking about, they exist. Yes, you know, without plant medicine and that type thing, there's a lot of really good people leading companies and so on. But it's, it's still the conversation needs to broaden and needs to be more pervasive.
Leena M:And those companies that are led by like, you know, really good leaders. I mean, I think that the common attributes are what we talked about, really being there to serve the people, having, you know, compassion and humility and, you know, being of service, having a good sense of humor, all of these things that are creating safety, and whether or not you embark in these tools as your pathway. The truth is that is a constant, and it still shocks me how business is still. There's still a lot of that toxic sort of. It isn't just toxic masculinity and patriarchy, but that's a big part of it. But there's a toxicity in leadership. There's this driving, driven to succeed. Well, I think there's so
Murray Rodgers:much fear. Yeah, you know, I think that what's really toxic, and this isn't about men or women or anything else, it's the amount of fear that pervades so many businesses, yeah, and insecurity,
Leena M:right? And we've seen those leaders who are controlling at all costs. Yeah. Okay, in other types of jobs, though, I've seen it where you've got those leaders who are, you know, probably driven by insecurity. Maybe there is a little bit of a false sense of satisfaction by getting people to do what you need them to do. And it's very short lived, though, because, you know, people have choices of where they can work, they'll leave you but isn't it so much better for a leader to not have to think about that, you know, to be on another side, where you're just you're relaxed, you're in a joyful state. Your team is in a joyful state. And and I think some people are afraid of not being so type A, because then things won't get done. And I have not had that experience, you know, I find that our team is fantastic. And if you along the way, find people who are not pulling their weight or who are not doing things and they're not really supposed to be in your environment, and that's okay too. You know, being kind is not the same thing as being weak, right? And people have to get over that. Well,
Murray Rodgers:yeah, you know, with, with, with men, you know, in that sort of male paradigm that I was involved in, you know, kindness was often equated with weakness, and feeling was equated with weakness, you know. And one of my, great friend of mine who helped, we helped build a company together, engineers. Engineer used to pull his operating guys into the room. And I was, you know, the the boss at the time, and he would he would prep them. He would say, now I gotta tell you guys. When Murray comes into the room, he might ask you how you feel about something. And they would laugh uproariously, as though, as though that was the weirdest thing they could imagine, because this was like man's man type group, and so at the time, even just saying the word How do you feel? Was was met with a lot of derision, you know. So that's changed a lot. Well, you know, we
Leena M:see it also in I mean, the other thing that I do as well, in addition to working here, is some film and TV work. And you do see that mindset in the film and TV world as well, where being kind is equated to being weak. And you know, have you heard of the stories where I don't know which director it is, but he basically gets on set and fires someone to show this, this show of power, the show of power. What the hell is that fire someone look because we know also those leaders who are so kind to embody these principles, but they're afraid to say, fire a dumbass. They're afraid to fire somebody who's awful, yeah. And that's not good. That's not what we're saying. I don't think that's necessarily strong leadership.
Murray Rodgers:That isn't what we're saying at all. I mean, the fact is, is you have to have boundaries. You don't have to have boundaries and know what your principles are as a leader, yes, and what's good for the organization, what's good for the team, and you need to take right action, yes. So that's what this self awareness is all about. It's being self aware enough to know that when, when you have to take an action, it's the right action, right? It can be a it can be a tough action, but it can still be done with kindness or dignity or decency or respect, yes, but it's still a tough action,
Leena M:and it's, it's also the motivation as to why? Yeah, because, yeah, I remember we were doing some filming in, I think it was in Raleigh or New York, I don't know, we had a big project for giant Enterprise Client where we were doing both design as well as media. And so there I was, and I had been managing these crews, the film crews, all year. I had taken one weekend off, and I was here managing it from here, and had sent one of my counterparts out there to manage him. And he's a lovely, strong male energy, so he'd worked with that crew. The next month, I went and worked with this new crew, so they didn't realize that. You know, not only am I their boss, but I was also their boss's boss, because they had, in their minds, thought that that director who had been working that shoot was their boss. So I get on on set and I'm just not happy with the framing of something. The pushback I got was shocking, and I thought, Oh no, I have to deal with this again. A lot of women directors also find when they go on set, there's a little bit of friction, yeah, until they can prove themselves, until the moment they say, sound speed, Camera Action, until they're like, really, right? So I actually the shortcut there was. I had our our CEO Robin. I got him to come upstairs, introduce himself, introduce me. And that helped everyone kind of align themselves. They needed him to right, set the stage. I
Murray Rodgers:think that sounds to me like that was the classic male female thing, as opposed to a kindness thing. I think, I guess that one was, yeah, but I think unfortunately, that's still an endemic problem. Is that you know that inherent sexism that exists, I
Leena M:feel like you understand it, which is like, beautiful, isn't it? Yeah, you're my token white male. But you understand, I talked to you about this stuff extensively,
Murray Rodgers:I know. And unfortunately, it hasn't changed that much, because there are still those, those biases in organizations, right? And a woman has to work harder to prove herself, you know. And then you know, of course, the paradox is, the tougher you are, you get labeled negatively. That way too. So in a way, it's still, still a challenge, because the statistics are still not great in terms of female representation on boards of directors and in senior leadership positions and that type thing. It's changed a lot, yeah, but the statistics are still not fantastic. Yeah, that's true. And you know, there's still, and there's also a lot of research findings that you know, having, you know, boards of directors that are at least equal, you know, equal representation, male and female, and management teams as well are more functional than not, and yet, most boards of directors are primarily male dominated. Yeah, I see that in my world all the time, you know? And it's almost an afterthought, where the man on the board go, Whoa, we need to have a female on the board. Yeah, that's it tokenism. It's just, yeah, it's, it's still kind of a strange it's a
Leena M:bunch of unconscious biases, actually, yes, I was joking around about her earlier. We had a lot of female led organizations here, a lot of female CEOs and such in our show. And that was not on purpose. It just, I don't know this is just who I was reaching out to. Our producer is a woman, and we have a very strong female driven set, and all of a sudden that our bias creeped in. Yeah, it happened. Yeah.
Murray Rodgers:Well, you know, when I started doing all this personal work and going to, like yoga teacher training, and then the Ayahuasca retreats, mainly women, were doing all of this personal work, and that was a huge eye opener for me in terms of this will sound like a really weird statement to make, but my eyes were opened so dramatically in terms of the power, the intelligence, the capability of women in general, because I come from such a patriarchal world that I, in fact, hadn't paid attention to plant medicine exposed me to the feminine in such a profound way, where I'm now like, let's get more Women in here, because we're gonna screw it up. Guys are gonna screw it up. Let's get more women in here. Figure this out. I really believe that, because it just, you know, I'm, it's changed completely for me. Well,
Leena M:it's, it's, it'd be beautiful if there was strong balance. Yeah,
Murray Rodgers:yeah. Balance is the is the ideal, of course, but you know, right
Leena M:now, there isn't. And even with some of the women who are in power, sometimes that imbalance shows up too. You know, it was we in, I won't say exactly which organization or what, but it was a female lead I had to let go of because she was embodying a lot of those toxic, patriarchal, masculine principles, because that worked for her. Yeah, and she'd been in this industry, in the industry that I had been working in for so many years, and, like, in order to be heard, she had to be a bulldog, and she had to, like, really, you know, show power. And so I don't blame her, yeah, but, you know, we were trying to do things differently, and unfortunately that there was no room for that type of toxic behavior, you
Murray Rodgers:know, I think what we're really talking about, you know, in terms of all of the doing the personal work, because you reconcile the feminine and masculine parts of yourself, yes, and allow that to flourish in the other, male or female, and achieve a healthy balance within within you, within oneself, and then you allow that to perpetuate throughout your organization. Oh,
Leena M:I love it. Thank you so much. We'll end it there. Wanna thank my guest, Murray Rodgers, author of The psychedelic CEO, and we'll have that on our website. Link there, so you can download the book and purchase the book. I've read it. I highly recommend it. It's really wonderful. So many more of your own experiences and life lessons are detailed in the book, and I found that it was very applicable, even though, you know, I mean, we're, I'm South Asian, Brown Girl, and yet, I found it's very applicable to my own life. And so thank you for that. Thank you for so openly sharing your experiences. And yeah, I mean, I feel like the key, like the main theme that we have explored in today's podcast, is just in order to be really up to so good and purpose driven, you know, you've got to take steps in figuring out who you are, what makes you tick, what's your purpose, and things start to fall into place.
Murray Rodgers:Thank you, Leena, it's been a real honor having this conversation with you. Thank you. And you really are up to so good. Oh,
Leena M:it's just the hair color and that. That concludes today's podcast, and of course, produced by all purpose, a beautiful design and media agency, our beloved all purpose and J pod creations love them too. We'll see you next time. Well, that's all the time we have for today's show. Thank you so much for joining us. And if you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, hit the like button or share an episode. And if you have any feedback, questions or comments or show ideas, you can email us directly at Hello, at all purpose.io. Thank you once again for joining us. We'll see you next time you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
