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[00:00:06] Stephen Pantano: uh, are huge. So the Inflation Reduction Act has two or three programs, really. I mean, how you count that, that can be used to offset these upfront costs for people who that are income qualified, uh, with less than 150% of the area median income. So it's different everywhere. Yep. Um, there are rebate programs through their, um, Electrification rebates that are up to $14,000 to offset the cost of, uh, of the heat pump equipment, the weatherization insulation and air ceiling work that probably needs to be done alongside that to improve the home, the electrical work, and the panel upgrades that may need to be done.

[00:01:04] Eric Goranson: house. The segment is brought to you by Root Quencher and Root Quencher dotcom.

[00:01:27] Eric Goranson: Thanks for joining us today. We've got a big show lined up this hour. We've got Steve Pontiano, head of research at Rewiring America. Steve, welcome to Around

[00:01:40] Eric Goranson: such an important topic right now and, and you know, in, in my local area here in Portland, Oregon, and you know, this show goes across the United States on the radio and of course internationally on the podcast.

[00:02:09] Stephen Pantano: let alone a heat pump. Yeah, it's um, it's really so. Where I live, I live in Maryland, and uh, it's hot.

[00:02:37] Stephen Pantano: Yeah. And at the there's of interesting new. Products coming out that solve for that, for both renters and, uh, renters and homeowners in a variety of different building types. Um, I'll just a quick anecdote. I was at Costco, uh, few days ago. Mm-hmm. And saw the first portable air conditioner, heat pump, [00:03:00] uh, combo that I've ever seen on sale for $300.

[00:03:26] Stephen Pantano: This could be a great way to, um, to, to bring. You know, fairly efficient electric heat and cooling into a place. And for 300 bucks, I mean, that's the lowest, certainly the lowest price, heat pump I've ever laid my eyes on, so.

[00:03:52] Eric Goranson: Like with the. With the wall cadet heaters or the baseboard heat or something like that. And if you could hook [00:04:00] that up where you're getting heat in the winter time with that, right, in that heat pump technology, you could actually be saving over, you know, what you had traditionally built into the wall because that is such inefficient heat when you're talking those forced air electric, you know, or you know, resistance heat heaters that are mounted on the walls.

[00:04:38] Stephen Pantano: Um, that is by definition, a hundred percent efficient. Every, you know, every bit of energy that goes in there turns into a bit of heat. Um, heat pumps can get. Three, four times more efficient than that? Um, easily under most circumstances. So if you have electric resistance, heat, um, you are definitely going to save money.

[00:05:15] Stephen Pantano: And now there's all these federal incentives coming into play, um, and tax credits through the Inflation reduction Act that can hopefully help to reduce that cost to, uh, a manageable place for, for most people, if not all. And those go along perhaps with other state and local incentives or u utility incentives to switch to heat pumps because even in the electric utilities, best interest to move people off that.

[00:05:44] Eric Goranson: It's, it's amazing. And then there's that common, you know, misconception that, oh, I live in a colder climate, so heat pump isn't gonna work for me.

[00:05:56] Stephen Pantano: A ton of innovation in cold climate, heat pumps. There's organizations [00:06:00] like ne, the Northeast Energy Efficiency Partnership, uh, which has been leading the way on a lot of this work. The Department of Energy has a cold climate, heat pump challenges a lot of innovation happening from individual manufacturers, and we now, Have products on the market that can provide or will soon through this, uh, d o e heat pump challenge.

[00:06:41] Stephen Pantano: Mm-hmm. Um, on my house right now and I have oil heat for backup, which I hate to use cuz it's super expensive and I try to use it as little as possible and my heat pumps keep my home comfortable down to about. 25 degrees outdoor temperature, which is pretty cold. Yeah. Um, and I could probably push it even a little bit further [00:07:00] before the family starts to complain that they're a little chilly.

[00:07:22] Eric Goranson: Oh yeah. I've got a friend who's an architect up in Maine and she's using heat pumps and her projects up there even. So yeah,

[00:07:38] Stephen Pantano: It does. I dunno if you've spent any time up there, but yeah, the winters are brutal.

[00:07:57] Eric Goranson: In most of the US

[00:08:03] Eric Goranson: and it's smart because we all like saving money. Nobody likes paying that huge gas bill. Oil bill, you know, or even electric bill if you've got that electric resistance, heat. And like he said, the rebates that we're seeing out there right now are massive.

[00:08:44] Stephen Pantano: So it's different everywhere. Yep. Um, there are rebate programs through their, um, electrification rebates that are up to $14,000 to offset the cost of, um, of the heat pump equipment. The weatherization, insulation and air [00:09:00] ceiling work that probably needs to be done alongside that to improve the home, the electrical work, and the panel upgrades that may need to be done.

[00:09:29] Stephen Pantano: Mm-hmm. Uh, his, historically, these have had a lifetime limit. So you could do a project and then you hit your lifetime cap and you don't get to redeem that again. That lifetime limit's been removed and now people can redeem those year after year. Um, and the list of products that qualify have been expanded substantially to include heat pumps and.

[00:09:49] Eric Goranson: around the house. We'll be right back. Don't go anywhere.

[00:10:09] Eric Goranson: Welcome back to The Round The House Show. This is where we help you get the most outta your home through information and education. Thanks for joining us today. You know, we've been talking about electrification inside your home, and this is something where you can save some serious money with all the rebates and everything else out there.

[00:10:46] Eric Goranson: This makes a lot of sense. And I love that we're starting to see heat pumps used in many other places around the home like that because my savings on my, on my heating and my water was massive. That [00:11:00] thing pays for itself really quickly when you put a heat pump heading towards a water heater.

[00:11:07] Stephen Pantano: That's the next thing I'm doing in my house. I have a resistance water heater. Mm-hmm. Um, I've done, actually done some maintenance on it recently, put new anodes in and I know it's, you know, it's maybe got a couple years left. It's a little small for my house. The, yep. Heat pump water heaters. You can get a bigger storage tanks.

[00:11:42] Stephen Pantano: Um, and I'm gonna need a bigger, I already need a bigger tank. Yeah. So, you know, I know that's one of the biggest. Uh, points of energy consumption in my house and I'm really looking forward to, um, to making that switch probably this year.

[00:12:01] Eric Goranson: That's awesome. And um, I think with my energy rates out here, I don't think that's costing me a hundred dollars to heat that Wow. Year round. Yeah, because it uses about 500 watts of energy on heat pump mode. And because I have the bigger tank, it's not having to, rarely does it go into hybrid mode. Mm-hmm.

[00:12:37] Eric Goranson: It was one that I, I was shocked at how much money that actually saved

[00:12:58] Stephen Pantano: Uh, you know, when I get [00:13:00] that heat pump water heater, I'll get sort of free dehumidification in the basement at the same time. Yeah. You

[00:13:26] Eric Goranson: You know, um, things that are in the air. So you ha you end up having a much, you know, cleaner, healthier home because of you've got this central system working versus just a, a steam heat. Radiant heat, yeah. Or electric. That's just going through these. It's shocking how much that filter will pick up in the house if you put a diesel one in, when you put that heat

[00:13:45] Stephen Pantano: Yeah, I have, so I have Merv 13 filters, so pretty good filters on mine. Um, I've got these nice big four inch, uh, ones that you don't have to change too often, which is pretty nice. Yeah. But they do, they do a lot of work to clean the air. You're right. When you're mo [00:14:00] moving from, uh, Steam radiators or electric resistance to, uh, to a forced air system with a heat pump, uh, or even a mini split.

[00:14:32] Stephen Pantano: Mm-hmm. Heat pumps will do, do a much more gradual heat. They are intended to run, uh, continuously and by doing so, they actually filter and process more air in the house. So, um, compared to that furnace installation, you're gonna have way more runtime, way more air moving through the filters, um, and much. A much higher volume of air filtration than you would otherwise have had.

[00:15:10] Stephen Pantano: Um, and their house is just as warm and comfortable. It just doesn't feel as hot because it's, it's sort of more gradual. Uh, more gradual form of heat. So, and

[00:15:29] Eric Goranson: You're watching television, you can't go up. Furnace is turning on, you know,

[00:15:55] Stephen Pantano: Mm-hmm. And it was right on the patio outside the, the house. Right on the deck. Yeah. [00:16:00] And it was almost silent. Like it was, it was much better than the ones that I have on my house, which are 10 years old. Yeah. And the speed, I mean, they're allowed to like a central air conditioner. Yeah. Cause that's essentially the same product.

[00:16:16] Eric Goranson: my AC that I have in my house here sounds like a box fan outside, right? Mm-hmm. Just hear the air movement and that's really all it is. So they've gotten so much better with that. So one of the questions I have, and this is one of the, the pushback that I get for people, cause I talked to a lot of people about smart home tech and that kind of stuff is, is what do we do nationally to get our electric.

[00:17:01] Stephen Pantano: Yeah, I, that's a great question. We get that all the time as well. Um, And I have, I think the, the key point to make here is about the amount of time that this is going to take. Right? We're not going to put electric cars in every garage tomorrow. We're not gonna put heat pumps in every house tomorrow.

[00:17:42] Stephen Pantano: So for a heat pump HVAC system, it's typically 15 years. So he said, well, really by 2035, we need to be turning all the sales over. Uh, to heat pump by that date to make sure that ev you know, yeah. More or less everything's electrified by, um, on the heating side by, um, 2050. So even [00:18:00] that like a hundred percent of sales by 2035 is still 12 years down the road.

[00:18:27] Stephen Pantano: I'm sure that utilities in a lot of places are already doing this, as are the, uh, regulators. Uh, but saying, you know, where is this load growth going to happen? On what timescale? Don't change that.

[00:18:38] Stephen Pantano: back. Don't go anywhere.

[00:19:07] Eric Goranson: Welcome back to Around the House Show. If you wanna find out more about us here and around the house, head over to around the house. online.com and make sure you catch our videos over on our website as well, because I've got my TV show videos over there.

[00:19:30] Stephen Pantano: Planning. Right? We need, uh, kind of everybody. To have this in mind as they're planning grid infrastructure upgrades. I'm sure that utilities in a lot of places are already doing this, as are the, uh, regulators.

[00:20:01] Stephen Pantano: Correct. So you sort of have this ability to make trades. Um, uh, so you're adding load in some places and taking it away in other places, and at the same time, planning over 20 years. To make upgrades. If we are doing this work now with two decades to get it done, I'm pretty confident we can figure out this puzzle and not break the grid.

[00:20:40] Stephen Pantano: Um, you know, gives better outcome. Like this is where we're headed, right? Yeah.

[00:20:59] Eric Goranson: And I'm [00:21:00] like, ah, okay, so you got enough here to put in a heat pump. And a car charger

[00:21:18] Stephen Pantano: The mayor of a town, um, and you want to take on an initiative to electrify where you live or, or you know, if you're a utility program manager looking at efficiency programs and, and deploying heat pumps and electrification programs, you probably want to prioritize those electric resistance. Homes somewhere near the top of your list.

[00:22:01] Stephen Pantano: This is like, how do we do this at scale across a community or within, you know, a substation of a, a particular part of the electric grid? Then you start to see that there are ways to do it smartly that aren't going to cause these long-term problems that people are worried about. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:20] Eric Goranson: I know you guys do a lot of studies on stuff with heat pumps. Do you think that we're gonna get down, I know there's only so much heat in the air when you get down to, you know, minus 15, minus 20 in some of these areas. That it gets harder and you have to, it's work harder to get more heat pulled outta the air.

[00:22:49] Stephen Pantano: I, I think so. So, yeah, when you think about the heat in the air, you actually have to start from absolute zero, right?

[00:23:13] Stephen Pantano: You need different refrigerants running in the refrigerant lines of the equipment. Mm-hmm. Um, but I, again, looking over that. 15, 20 year timescale that we're talking about. I have every confidence that manufacturers and innovation will spin up and solve these problems when the problem, when there's a market for them to do so.

[00:23:57] Stephen Pantano: I don't even know if we're limited to sort of [00:24:00] compressor thermodynamic cycles, like we don't mm-hmm. Necessarily. There might be solutions that are beyond sort of what we consider an air conditioner or heat pump today that are going to come and help to solve some of these problems as well. Good question.

[00:24:28] Stephen Pantano: Five to 10 years, we'll put a challenge out there to manufacturers to hit this specification because we know it'll be useful for this big portion of the market. What comes after that? I'm sure there's, you know, there's xprize like things that could come down the road to solve for new problems and get us that much further down the line.

[00:24:54] Eric Goranson: we've got. There's a lot of solutions out there for the power generation side, and that's really come a long ways from [00:25:00] the, from the utility side of things, you know?

[00:25:23] Eric Goranson: Really, it's coming down to the public to start making those choices themselves of, Hey, I wanna save some money and put a heat pump in. And yeah, I've got the government rebates to help me put

[00:25:44] Stephen Pantano: Is today. Right? That's sort of most people's framework for saying, well this thing can't get better cuz it's always gonna, car's always gonna look like a car, right? Yeah. Um, it's gonna have four wheels and a combustion engine. Well, no. Like it may still have four wheels, but now it might have electric motors, right?

[00:26:15] Stephen Pantano: Um, there are a couple of induction stoves that coming to market now. Mm-hmm. Um, for example, which fit, you know, sort of you. Pull out your old stove and drop this in and it plugs into 120 volt outlet. Yeah. And the reason it can run that way is because it has a big bank of batteries built into the, what, what, what used to be the warming drawer.

[00:26:56] Stephen Pantano: Yeah. And cook your food, right. So, um, this idea [00:27:00] of bringing batteries into more types of products, um, and energy storage. So your hot water heater is a form of energy storage as well, the hot water in the tank. Um, battery store, same energy and electric form. This idea of bringing energy storage into the home in different places for different uses helps to also reduce that demand on the grid, improve people's resilience during outages.

[00:27:35] Eric Goranson: mean, I have one of those, uh, those battery, the, um, it's a universe one, but it's the size of a cooler.

[00:28:06] Eric Goranson: And they were shocked at how efficient that was. And, It just really shows and I think we're see. Um, Backup power like that is going to be something that's gonna be more important as we go forward. Not because of what we're doing here, but the utility companies, at least on the west coast, having some issues with liability, where if the winds are coming up here, you know, Pacific Power just had a big lawsuit here and don't go anywhere around the house will be right back.

[00:28:55] Stephen Pantano: It's end of the show down people.

[00:28:58] Stephen Pantano: to go. [00:29:00]

[00:29:14] Eric Goranson: News group on Facebook around the House Nation. Now

[00:29:44] Stephen Pantano: That you can buy and try for yourself. Maybe you're not convinced that this is gonna be for you and you know, you're, you think you're gonna be cooking on gas for the rest of your life cuz you love cooking on gas. You can buy this thing, try it out, actually use it around your house even after you try it out to.

[00:30:16] Stephen Pantano: Maybe even more, more pleased at the end of the day.

[00:30:33] Eric Goranson: So I was like, sold. That's the first time I've seen one on a barbecue.

[00:30:41] Eric Goranson: well, yeah, I mean, in a nutshell, and, you know, we'll have to wrap up here in a few minutes, but I, I wanna make sure that people understand right now that. That if you are looking to upgrade your H V A C system, and what I mean is, is that you haven't just put one in five years ago, but if you're looking right now, there are some the [00:31:00] money that it's gonna save you.

[00:31:21] Eric Goranson: Now's the time.

[00:31:42] Stephen Pantano: Late 2023, early 2024 to start to roll out. Mm-hmm. The tax credits are available today. Yep. Um, you gotta sort of do your homework and figure out what's available to you. But yeah, there's, I mean, there's, there's plenty of oppor, there are hundreds of thousands of homes, uh, today in this country that could [00:32:00] vary.

[00:32:23] Stephen Pantano: Whatever. Like there's, there's lots of homes that can do this very cost effectively right now. Um, and people just, I think people should just take the time to look at what's in their house and understand what systems they have. I'm sure the people listening to your show are gonna be pretty savvy about what's in their home, but maybe their neighbors aren't and they can talk to their neighbors about this or their family members.

[00:33:07] Stephen Pantano: Must be replaced. Um, so my, my parents pay for inefficient air conditioning. Mm-hmm. Um, their house is poorly insulated as well, which is another story. If they listen to this podcast, they'll probably be upset with me for bringing this up. Uh, their house is poorly insulated. It has inefficient air conditioner that's very old and near the end of its life and it has oil heat, which is super expensive right now.

[00:33:45] Stephen Pantano: Mm-hmm. Um, that heat pump would offset probably 40, 60, 80% of their oil use. Mm-hmm. Maybe more depending on what quality heat pump they got. Yep. And it would make their air conditioning way more efficient cuz they're air conditioner as old as can [00:34:00] be. Yeah. So they would probably save. Thousands of dollars a year on their energy bills

[00:34:06] Eric Goranson: Cuz we all know what that old air conditioner that's that old has, you know? Yeah. How many, yeah. How much power that thing's when it's cranking in the summertime, you know, that thing's so inefficient. Yeah.

[00:34:24] Stephen Pantano: Today on their energy bills with a simple, in this case, a very simple upgrade. Mm-hmm. Which is just switching their central, existing old central air conditioner for a central heat pump, and then using that as the primary source of heat. So all spring, all fall, and most of the winter. You get really efficient electric heat instead of really expensive and inefficient oil heat.

[00:35:02] Stephen Pantano: And you're saving thousands of dollars every year.

[00:35:26] Eric Goranson: And you're right, it's just gonna keep paying you back as well as healthier air, because it's gonna do a heck of a lot better job of filtering and moving air as well, like you said. Yep. So that, that is so smart. So you think those, uh, bigger rebates, uh, we're, we're expecting end of the year as far as what we're seeing.

[00:35:44] Stephen Pantano: for people so. Yeah, it's up to, so each, the way these programs, the rebate programs work is that each state energy office Yep. Is responsible for administering these. They get the money from the federal government and they then roll these programs out.

[00:36:16] Stephen Pantano: Really it depends where you live. Yep. Um, but yeah, I would say late, later this year, early next year to start seeing those hit the market. So, but the tax credits, again, the tax credits are available today, um, to any, to anybody.

[00:36:33] Eric Goranson: If you don't have the money today, pull little money aside right now so you can get on that and, uh, use that money. I mean, it's free money to you, right? Yeah. And it's, it's tax money that's coming back to you, so, uh, they've already spent it. You might as well take your share and, uh, make your house more comfortable and save energy in the

[00:36:51] Stephen Pantano: Yeah, you raised one, one last point, maybe, um, you said planning today. Uh, I think that's a really critical point, right? So, [00:37:00] um, most, like, as we, I said earlier, most people don't really think about the furnace or the boiler. And they, it's like the thing in home alone that you try to stay away from unless you get trapped in the basement.

[00:37:27] Stephen Pantano: Right. So, you know, have a plan. You know, your HVAC system might be. Uh, I don't know, 10 years old, so maybe you have five, 10 years left on that. You know, your water heater's 15 years old and already past the end of its life, so maybe that should be your first priority to upgrade. But just doing this assessment of.

[00:38:15] Stephen Pantano: To get their electri. Absolutely.

[00:38:34] Eric Goranson: It's gonna be better for you to do the upgrade. So if you've got that 10 year old system, start planning now, cuz you're gonna need to put a new one in and that's gonna save you money in the long run. Yep. All right. Well, Steven, thanks for coming on today, man, you're a wealth of knowledge and I hope uh, our listeners out there have really got some new ideas on how to save some money and, of course, be a little better on the environment around themselves.

[00:38:59] Eric Goranson: Where do [00:39:00] people track you guys down? I mean, you guys have a big website and stuff like that. Where do people find you? We

[00:39:08] Eric Goranson: Awesome. Steven Pantera. Thanks for coming on today,

[00:39:14] Eric Goranson: around the house.