In Part 1 of this CLOC Talk series, host Janessa Nelson sits down with Education Advisory Council members LaResa Young, Matt Wheatley, and John Esposito to explore what inspired them to join the EAC and what excites them most about advancing legal operations education. From webinars and CGI to LMS innovation and global skill-building, the panel discusses how learning is evolving across the profession. Tune in for an insightful conversation about where legal ops education stands today — and where it needs to go in the next 3–5 years.

 Hi everyone, and welcome to Clock Talk, the podcast of the Corporate Legal Operations Consortium. I'm your host, Janessa Nelson, and today we're diving into one of the most important conversations shaping the future of our profession, education, skills, development. And then, because we're talking about those topics, we really wanted to bring in kind of our clock experts on that topic, which is our Education Advisory Council, or EAC.

They're really helping us move us forward globally from a education skills development perspective. I'm joined today by three incredible leaders who bring diverse perspectives and deep experience to this work. Larissa Young, Matt Wheatley, and Janice pto. Thank you so much for coming to Cloud Cock today.

Thank you for having us. Let's start with a little context. Each of you chose the Education Advisory Council at a time when legal Ops learning is evolving very quickly. So let's just do a little background for the audience. What made you join EAC and what impact were you hoping to make when you joined the council?

The reason I joined EAC is because I think we're really at a critical moment in legal generally. And I think that content and education are shifting very quickly, and I bring a little bit of a different perspective than most of our EAC members. I'm on the vendor side, which means I spend all day talking to other legal department leaders.

So I've got a good view across various departments, what people are doing. And so I think that hopefully I'm gonna be able to bring a lot of value in that way. And the impact that I'm hoping to drive is. I think people join Clock and they get involved in communities like Clock because we all want opportunity.

We want opportunity to grow in our careers. We want to network to find other opportunities. It's all about trying to build your career and find the best opportunities for you, and that's the impact that I'm hoping to contribute to is good quality education that helps people further themselves in their careers.

Bring great people together to help networking and create more job mobility within the legal ops community, which I think is important. Larissa, how about kick it over to you? I agree with you. You know, throughout my career I leveraged the clock forms to kind of get started with what a legal operations department function could look like.

And so I thought by joining the EAC that I could give back in a more structured way going into my 19th year in legal operations. And so giving back and joining clocks. On the Education Advisory Council was a great way I think that I could do that. I think education is important. I think it's our foundation of what we do day in and day out and yeah, I'm just looking forward to being a pivotal member of the EAC.

What about you, John? I second everything my colleague said. I think Clock has always been. Really setting the foundation for operational folks within the legal industry. What I appreciate most about Clock is that the content is really geared to legal operation professionals in a way where there really isn't other foundations or other platforms out there that are really providing that type of information and knowledge.

And so. When the opportunity became available, I really wanted to participate in this because I think as we continue to progress with all of the changes in the industry with technology and just better ways of working. The departments are under so much pressure with cost cutting and implementing technology and finding more efficient ways of doing things.

We have to be the people that help other industries and other companies really understand how to do that. They need assistance. They need guidance. What we also need to do is be part of the conversation so that we can learn from them too, to learn really what their challenges are and how we can kind of take the expertise and knowledge that we have to kind of support that in the best way possible.

And so that's really why I wanted to be part of this. And the impact that I'm really looking to make here is really continue to grow my network, to continue to expose myself to opportunities. And really help the industry just create stronger education around this ever-changing environment. And again, it's not really just only a teaching part here, it's also a learning part for myself.

I think you're all inspiring our listeners to potentially join EAC the next time the council opens back up. I'm inspired personally. Some of you mentioned it, how education is sort of the foundation. I completely agree. I think that is the core of what sort of clock is for a lot of us in the legal ops community.

So let's talk about what role do you think education does play in advancing legal ops, not just in skills, but also in credibility and career growth? I think education plays a foundational role in advancing legal operations professionally because the discipline itself is still evolving and unlike traditional legal career paths.

Legal operation professionals often come from diverse backgrounds and maybe even different areas within their current organization or within the actual legal field. Some are attorneys, whatnot, but they're expected to quickly have expertise in many different areas of what we consider to be operations, right?

We have finance, we have technology, we have vendor management, we have overall organizational strategy, and so. Really structured education provides the common language to really create the governance that you need around that. And you know, have the financial fluency and the overall framework that practitioners really need to move technical support roles to more strategic leadership positions.

And that's something that education really is the foundation for that. I don't trust anybody who doesn't say that they still need to develop their skills. You have 19 years. I assume that you are still trying to learn as well. Yeah, absolutely. I agree with John that education is the foundation. I mean, no matter what legal systems you have, your maturity level, your resource availability, you still need that commonality or that foundation of what good can look like for you.

When I started, I was a party of one, so I had to leverage what was out there in the education that. You know, the templates and everything that I got from the Clock resources page to help me kind of develop those low hanging fruits, learn the lingo, learn how to justify the need for additional resources, choose a vendor, things like that, and having that education and that background knowledge, you wouldn't have gotten it in a law firm or anywhere else.

You needed a landing page like clock and the resources that they provide to be able to start growing and seeing what a legal operations function can actually look like. Did you all know that just a couple of years ago, legal ops was, according to LinkedIn data, one of the 20 fastest growing job titles.

This is still such a young profession. I mean, I think that, John, to your point about having kind of common language and more foundation that you can build on, I was talking to someone a couple of weeks ago who's the head of legal ops at a big financial services organization now. I think it was like.

Four or five years ago, she was in this role and she didn't really know what it was. Even she had from another operational background and she met someone, they were like, you know, you're in legal ops, right? And she was like, no legal ops. Then she found Clock and she realized that there was this community of people that she could get together and kind of.

And so it's so important that people in these new roles are able to come together, learn from each other, and then just make sure that legal Ops is successful in their organization. So more opportunities open for other people. Part of, I think, the struggle that we have a little bit is. People are coming from all different backgrounds into legal ops.

It's sort of a catchall for people who have a unique set of skills and have different sort of areas that they can focus on. And legal ops is so broad in some ways that people can excel in different areas and become really successful Legal ops leaders. So talking about different skills and you know, we come in with different elements that we excel in.

What gaps do you see? When legal operation professionals are developing skills today, one is like the practical application because we, you know, we're just talking about, it's so much knowledge that's rich that we share and we're open to sharing. But I think because this is a new space and we've sort of been doing this all along.

It's just been given the name legal Operations. We've all been negotiating, you know, outside counsel management, vendor management, things like that. We've just called it what it was and not this rich umbrella of legal operations. And so I think developing like practical applications and maybe having the certifications.

I know it's been a lot of talk and buzz out there around. Legal operations, certifications. And so one of the things that we've done to kinda start bridging the gap between what someone may wanna do, if they wanna go to law school, if they actually wanna think about ops, we've implemented a legal operations internship so that people can start learning about what legal operations is early on as an undergrad and maybe continue that in that space.

And I think it. It becomes more of a rich foundation than what it is already. I think we'll see it become something that someone can choose as a profession or go to school for, things like that. So I think that's one gap that we can start trying to bridge, and I think we're going towards that. I would add on that too, that one of the gaps that I noticed, I actually noticed it.

When I came into my current role about five years ago, was there an overall disconnect within the organization? My colleagues, outside of legal didn't really appreciate what we were working on, and so one of the things that I really appreciated was how Clock at the 1 0 1. They really focus on how important building internal relationships with your stakeholders.

R Having an open line of communication with finance is critical so that they have an understanding of what you're spending. Are there changes expected here at BMS, we, for example, refresh our budgets three times a year, and so my team initially. Had some questions around that and they initially thought there was some redundancy there, but really having them appreciate the understanding after they attended the clock 1 0 1 was to really grasp how important communication is.

And really having an understanding of what our business is and how you can communicate that in an effective way while maintaining confidentiality is really critical. And I think there's room to grow there, and we can do that through this education treatings. Dang, John, you got me changing what I'm thinking about over here.

I heard Darth Vaughn say this, and he's on the Board of Clock. He said something on a panel I was listening to at Clock, and it was something about having as a legal ops professional, accountability without authority. There are all of these things that legal ops professionals are accountable to, but it's really hard to influence the behaviors that actually make an impact towards those goals that you're driving towards.

And to your point, John, like internal influence. It's like a sales muscle. It's like, how can I deeply understand the true problems that people in my organization are facing, figure out a way that's gonna be palatable for them to do the thing that I need them to do so I can accomplish my goals. It's really hard.

We have all these sessions on change management and like I know it's really hard to do these things, and I think that those are the types of conversations that instead of these. I can say this 'cause I'm a vendor. These like vendor led discussions on like how awesome their tech is. Like those things.

That's cool. You need some of that too. But you really like the, those practical, like how to win friends and influence people types of discussions I think are really valuable. Well, and I think that's a part of the challenge that I like about legal ops is that you're combining these hard technical skills with these.

Other relationship skills or strategic skills, which I don't feel like I would get in other places. So having to sort of balance between the two. But I definitely am weaker in some areas that I would like to admit. And so I think that's a part of it is that sort of recognizing my weakness and then actively searching for content to help me improve.

And a little bit of it is practice makes perfect going, trying, failing. Learning a lesson and then trying again. Right. I think I hear a lot from the clock community. People are very vocal in the clock community, um, about a number of different things. And I think the big thing that I try and tell people is that the clock organization really is listening and wanting to hear and, and improve as well, because I feel like that's a very legal ops focus and sort of mindset.

So what kind of feedback are you guys hearing within the EAC? And then what are we doing to sort of improve our learning experiences based off of that feedback that people are asking for? The sum of the feedback that I receive is they, uh, really appreciate, uh. The interactive sessions. I know it's sometimes a challenge, but like last year, like the clock 1 0 1 and 1 0 2, like they were so successful and like getting so many people together and having experts in the industry really talk about best practices and showing real examples in real time and allowing there to have this.

Flow of conversation where there could be a live q and a I think really helps people achieve some of the education that they may be seeking, and I think they appreciate that kind of interaction. I agree with John. I also think that people having the one, those sessions allow people to understand and be a part of.

Where they are in the moment. You know, a lot of legal ops conferences talk about like, here's what this major company did to da, da, da, da, and a lot of people are like, Hey, I just got started. I was just put in this role and I have more idea. What I'm supposed to do next. And I think those sessions that Clark have generated, those educational sessions, those are pivotal for those people to say, oh, I can go get this one template.

To create billing guidelines. That's all I really can function on, right. You know, function with right now. That's the first thing I can learn about and understand is to just get billing guidelines out and having those foundational sessions like that where it's not too overwhelming, it's giving them a starting point.

I think those are the things that enrich people the most. First of all, I think it's really challenging to create content for hundreds of people. That's really a hard thing, and I think Clock has always tried to do its very best with putting out content that's gonna resonate with people. But of course like we all hear the criticisms from, and I've been to every major legal ops event, there is always criticism about the content.

People are people, we're gonna look for things to say, but some of the things I hear things are too vague, too vendor focused, not tailored to their org size, not enough junior level learning, not enough senior level learning. The thing that it comes down to for me, is what I think people want practical takeaways, things that they can like.

One thing that they can take back that's gonna make an impact for their organization. And John, to your point, I think what I hear from people is the more interactive and the more kind of small group oriented. I think that's where people, they sit down with others, they get to talk about what they've got, they get to hear from other people.

And I think that's where people really get the most practical takeaways. It's really, it's hard putting together content for so many people. And one thing I'd like to add to that is. When you approach it that way, the organization that is actually participating in the membership, they then see real value of being a member of this program.

Because like, yes, these large conferences are really valuable. You have an opportunity to network, but it is driven by like. Big changes, things that will usually cost a lot of money for an investment, a lot of time from a resource perspective. And so, yes, of course they're informational and very worthwhile, but like as we were just talking about, if someone is struggling with smaller things around billing guidelines or just overall how can I manage budgets better, how can I work more closely and increase vendor discipline?

That's something that these conferences aren't really focusing on, and I think when people are in more of a smaller group-like setting, they do have that real feedback in real time and it's for one main, it's less intimidating, right? Yeah, yeah. We all just wanna talk, don't we? That I think that's what people like to do.

They wanna be able to make sure that they have an opportunity to engage and engage with other people. I mean, I love hearing my voice so much that I'm on a podcast right now. So we're gonna wrap up this podcast. It is been so lovely to have you. But as we like to do in a lot of our Clock Talk podcasts, our last question is focused on the future.

So wanting to hear from you all about where do you think legal ops learning is headed towards? So where are we today and where are we gonna be in the next three to five years? I think today we're doing the best with what we have. Like we mentioned at the beginning of this podcast, legal operations. Most companies don't even have a department yet, and they're still figuring all of that out.

So I think that's kind of where we are today, and I think where we're headed. Is a very different place. We are entering an era where everything is focused on technology and data, and so as an operations team, you know, start to evolve over time within companies, whether they're in-house or on the law firm side, you really need to become more focused on your data, making sure that you're.

Getting valid data, making sure that you're using the data, making sure that you know how to report on the data, and making sure that you really know how to analyze the data to help senior leaders make better business decisions. That's really going to define the value of a legal operations team and allow us to continue to have the headcount and the resources that we need to continue to progress.

I think. Where we're going. I think we're going towards, I spoke about it, the competency where you know, you will have the legal ops certifications where there's like a global competency FA framework. I also think that you'll go from being a cost center or department two. More strategic across the organization in helping others with budget management and other things that are under our umbrella, especially with strategic planning, project management, things like that.

How we kind of operationalize things, how we do process improvements and developments. I think it'll become more strategic across organizations as opposed to just under the legal umbrella. Gosh, this is a really hard question. Things are changing so quickly. Like are we all gonna be vibe coding our way to 7% cost avoidance?

I don't know. I guess my prediction, what I see from, and this is about education specifically, but what I hear from CLOs and from other legal department leaders is that it is becoming way less about tools and way more about outcomes. I think we'll see. Less focus on modular, this is e-billing learning or, and more about kind of what levers do I need to pull to achieve certain outcomes.

So I think more outcome focused education would be, I guess my, my prediction. But I don't know, things are changing so quickly. I mean, I don't even know where we're gonna be next week. So looking three to five years can sometimes feel daunting. I definitely think that there's gonna be a lot of changes in Legal Lots organization in comparison to where it was when I first started eight years ago.

It's definitely grown and expanded quite a bit, and it's been wonderful to sort of see that growth happening in real time. And I hopefully in the next eight years it does even more and I get even better. But obviously I only care about myself, so, and the entire clock community. I just wanna thank you all for joining us, Larissa, Matt and John, you guys were incredible.

Thank you so much for sharing your insights and for your leadership in the EAC itself. And thank you everyone for listening and being part of the Clock community. If you enjoyed this episode of Clock Talk, be sure to subscribe and share with your colleagues. We love it when people share. Make sure to stay connected as we continue to explore the ideas shaping the future of legal operations.

And until next time, keep learning, keep collaborating and keep moving legal ops forward.