Full show notes for this episode can be found at https://podcast.jakehower.com/episode/how-to-create-awesome-online-courses-with-david-siteman-garland

You're listening to the Multimedia Marketing

Show, and this is episode 25.

Today's guest is David Sightman Garland from the rise to the top.

David, how are you?

Jake?

I am fantastic.

I love the accent.

I'm ready to go.

I'm fired up.

Yes.

Yes.

It's certainly different.

I guess to most of your guests that you bring on your own show.

Now in today's episode, we're going to look at how David goes

about creating some of his courses.

So he's got a number of courses now that he's done as part of the rise to the top.

And you could definitely say he's an expert in that.

So we're going to look at that today.

So David, for our listeners, why don't you give us a little bit

of context as to who you are and where you've got to, to this point.

Sure.

In a nutshell, basically what I'm best known, online for is I have a site called

the rise to the top which is what I call the number one resource for media preneur.

So it's like for people that create content sites, whether it's, you

do podcasts or, blogging or online videos or whatever it might be.

We're basically a resource to help people out, whether it's, growing audience and

making money or all that kind of stuff.

And in 2008, I started online things have twisted and turned a

lot since then to say the least.

But, I had no idea what I was doing in 2008.

I started an interview show called the rise of the top back then.

That's how it all started as an interview show, right?

Bring on kind of successful entrepreneurs now over 350 episodes and 7 million

downloads and stuff like that.

But when I started, I really, I had no clue what I was doing.

I was like, okay, I'm gonna build this platform up online.

I'm gonna, interview some people.

I'm gonna make money by some magical fairy way that I don't know yet.

There was like all this, I had no idea what was going on.

I realized I didn't have a fan base or anything when I started.

I didn't come from, celebrity background or anything like that.

So I was really starting from scratch.

So as the platform grew and why we're talking about this today, Jake is

that really my entire business shifted when I discovered creating online

courses, and then the idea that you can monetize an online platform blog,

web show, podcast, et cetera, by taking something that you already know

and turn it into an online course.

And the way that kind of happened was really by accident is that,

I was struggling to monetize for years was trying to figure it out.

I wanted something that was, long term and scalable and didn't have a lot of overhead

and something that I could put time into.

But then I could basically turn it into autopilot.

I had all these things that I was trying to do, and I was doing a really bad job

of them because I didn't know what to do.

So I was trying sponsorships and ads and All these different things

and people kept telling me, David, you got to create your own course,

your own product to sell to people.

It's going to hit all that criteria that you want to do.

Like it's going to, you're not going to have to trade dollars for hours.

You're going to have huge leverage.

You're going to be able to help people in a very specific way and get them

results and you're going to make a lot of money from it and it's not

going to require you to be there 24 7.

And that's really how this kind of journey began was this sort of like awakening.

Yeah.

That of all the business models out there, I found courses and like digital products

to be the best fit for me at the time.

Yeah, cool.

Cool.

All right.

I think that's fantastic.

It's great to hear all of that.

What I'd like to, speak to you about before we get stuck into it is, there are

changes happening online all the time.

It's constantly evolving.

And I think one thing I've noticed that you have done very in a very

recent past is that you've moved from interviews to creating more actionable.

There's still an interview, but you're trying to get your

interviews more actionable.

Are you seeing a trend going to more, actionable training?

Oh God, that's a tough, that's a great question.

I see this kind of both ways.

What you're referring to is, of course, like when I made this announcement

that we're switching more to training videos and stuff like that.

It's funny because I actually see a value in both.

I think that sometimes people want, in terms of an interview or a conversation

with someone they want to take away, like they want like very action,

like step by step type stuff, but then they also sometimes just want

to hear behind the scenes stuff and have a cool conversation and have

something a little bit more relaxed.

So I've seen it as a mix.

And that's what I'm trying to do on the show.

I think on my show, again, after you've done like 300 plus episodes,

you got to do some stuff to spice it up too, and so for me.

Moving forward, what I'm trying to do is mix it up a little bit.

Some kind of traditional more where it's just us having a conversation with

a good friend or a marketer or someone interesting, and then other ones that

it's going to be more training based and we're going to see what happens, but I

think, people really do love training.

But it really just depends on kind of the audience.

I wouldn't make a big blanket statement across the entire internet,

yeah, no, absolutely.

And I guess the other thing to consider is that there are so many

new podcasts coming on the scene and they're all following a similar format.

So I see what you're doing is differentiating

a little bit.

Meaning, meaning like most are just coming on and doing like

a conversation, if you will.

Is that what you're saying?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think, I think it's a testament now.

It's what's funny about this whole kind of trend or whatever you want to call it

is that, there's really I call, I, the word I used earlier, mediapreneurs, right?

Is like this middle ground between these two very different groups of

people out there, like one that's like the bloggers, if you will I don't mean

that in a derogatory term, but like the bloggers who are the people that.

Have this great content, these great communities, this great

stuff going on, but often don't know how to monetize very well.

And then you have another community, which was known as the internet marketing

community, who is very good at monetizing, sometimes in somewhat sketchy ways

but they don't really have a platform.

And it's interesting to watch now how people are more evolving to

that middle ground, and also a lot of the kind of traditional people

are moving towards you know what, I do need something consistently.

Free and awesome to send out to people, not just doing like pitch after pitch.

And I think that's a good thing for everyone, but we'll see how

the shows end up for everyone.

Yeah,

cool.

Cool.

All right.

Let's get stuck into it.

So lay it out for us, David, who should be creating online

courses?

Yeah.

So great question, and I'm not going to give the answer like that, like

everyone, cause nothing's for everyone.

In my opinion, the people that are most.

Are most correctly positioned to create an online course now, right?

Are people that have a platform and some kind of audience, okay?

So what I mean by platform, it could be anything.

It could be a blog, web show, podcast.

It could be funny cat drawings.

It could be an awesome YouTube channel.

Whatever it might be, some kind of platform, some kind of audience.

I don't, you don't need to have a hundred thousand people, nothing like that.

Because the way we'll talk about it in a few minutes.

Is that, to have success with an online course, you don't need that many buyers

because to have it be successful.

So you do have to have some kind of audience and some kind of platform.

That's pretty much my criteria for creating a course.

I didn't like a great one, but I'm saying for it to be successful.

Yeah,

definitely.

I guess most of our listeners are probably the person listening to this right now.

They're generally early stage entrepreneurs, but they've certainly

started building a platform and they're looking at, ways to

bring in more traffic and how to convert that traffic to dollars.

So I think this will really benefit our

listener today.

It's very scalable too.

So meaning what's cool about this, like when I, when my first course, I

should have done two or three years before I did it, like I know my

first one I should have done earlier.

Because here's the thing.

Once it's out there, once it's created, once it's launched to the world, and then

it's for sale and ongoing, I suggest, having it for sale not just launching

it and closing it, like having it for sale as your platform grows and your

traffic grows, so will your sales.

So it's a nice little scalable thing for you as you build up.

Yeah, definitely.

Now, what held you back from actually creating it earlier than?

God, you know what it really was.

What it really was, and this is funny, is just that I didn't here are the

two things that really held me back.

Number one was, and this was the major one until I developed a system for

figuring it out was I didn't exactly know what to create a course on.

That was my first problem.

So that kind of held me back.

Like I was like, Oh, what do I, what should I do a course on?

No idea.

The second thing that held me back was there wasn't really a roadmap

out there to help put it together.

Like I knew that there's gonna be like a lot of experimentation

and trying to figure stuff out.

And I was a little scared of that leap for a while of Oh my God, I'm have to

do this from scratch because there's some products out there to help you with

it, but there really weren't, wasn't anything as specific as I was looking for.

So I, it was just yeah, those two things for sure.

Yeah.

Cool.

Then let's look at that first point you made.

Let's look at, how do you go about deciding what sort of course you're

going to create?

Yeah.

So this is the fun part, right?

And and the funny thing is, I appreciate you starting there because, A lot of

people want to skip this foundation.

They just want to like move into different areas and it's just like

this is the critical moments, is the foundation because everything

else is easy, quote unquote.

It's really the foundation that's critical.

So let me preface this.

A lot of people come to me and they say, David, hey, I want to create a course.

What should I go learn how to do to create a course on Okay, that's a question.

And I'm like it's the wrong question because here's what here's

why it's not what you go learn how to do to create a course on.

It's what do you already know right now that you can

package up and sell to people.

Okay, so there is something that.

Everyone that's listening to this has some kind of step by step knowledge that

you have right now of something that you can teach people how to do that you can

package up and turn it into a course.

So what did I do?

I had no idea.

So I was thinking to myself what is it?

Because oftentimes the answer to this question is right under your nose.

So what ended up happening was, this is what I did first, and this is

what I suggest you do first, if you have any kind of following at all.

is start paying attention to the types of questions and emails

that you get online or in person.

So if you're getting a tweet or Facebook message or an email,

anything that comes in from your site, is there something consistent

that people are asking you about?

Even if you think it's extremely basic, extremely basic, something

so simple, you're like, Oh my God, how could people ask this?

That's where some of the secret sauce comes in.

So for me...

I was always hearing questions like how do I create an interview show?

How do I get a guest to say yes?

How do I market the show?

How do I make money from the show?

All these questions were associated with doing an interview show and

that's where, one of my flagship programs came from was basically

people asking me those questions.

Another kind of part of that process I call this the pay attention principle

because once you start paying attention for this You're going to start

uncovering clues all over the place as to what you should create a course on.

The second step is, you either, if you already have something great, if not,

you can go create something, is a how to post that you put up on your site.

Whether it's on your blog, or your podcast, your web

show, whatever it might be.

And this again goes back to that importance of having a platform, right?

So putting up a how to post on something, whatever it may be, how to swing a

kettlebell, how to, lose five pounds in a week, how to redecorate your home

for less than 500, how to whatever it might be coming up with a five steps

or a 10 steps or a how to type post.

And judging the temperature of that response and seeing, everyone knows

what their traffic is, what their subscribers are what that information is.

If something goes well or doesn't go so well and, using your own platform to test

is very inexpensive because it's free.

He's come up with stuff that you can test on there and come up with different

topics that you teach people and you don't ask them, you don't say, hey,

I'm going to create a course on this.

You don't need to do any of that kind of stuff.

It's all about.

How can you offer some value and test out to see what people respond to?

And that's what I started with.

I started doing one, like how to record interviews on Skype, how to how to get

a list people to say yes to interviews.

Those were like some of the posts that I did on my site.

And I saw that it really resonated with people.

And that's when these clues started to come together and turn into a course.

And this is what anyone can do that has a platform.

Absolutely.

And I'll certainly have to reiterate that.

I think that's probably the vital step is not just assuming that

you've got the market to buy the product, but actually getting it

on and making, having the stats to

back it up.

Yeah, exactly.

And the thing is another way to look at this too, is that think about a.

A personal just think about what you've done in your life that

you could teach to other people.

What have you done?

Have you lost 20?

Have whatever it may be, because here's the thing.

At the end of the day, one of the struggling points I see with people

as they come up with something is that a course is all about results, right?

It's all about getting someone a very tangible result.

Meaning I just, I use weight as an example, but it doesn't have to be that.

But it, it could be losing 10 pounds or losing weight.

It could be gaining muscle.

It could be getting out of debt.

It could be, whatever it is.

It has to be something that's step by step and concrete.

It, people may say, Oh, I want to do a course.

And at the end of it, you'll feel good.

What does that mean?

You know what I mean?

Like you, you want to have something that's very concrete and step by step,

that's what sells online for sure.

Cool.

All right.

Where do we go from here?

We've got a topic.

We think we actually know, cause we've tested it now.

It's a, we popped it onto our platform.

We've tested it.

We know it resonates.

What's the next

step.

Yeah.

So this is one of my little simple secret sauce steps here is to do a survey.

And there's some, I've tested this big time because you got to realize once I

got into this world of course, grading, I became like an obsessed, crazy person.

Because I realized that there wasn't anyone I just I needed help

and I wanted to figure it out.

So I interviewed.

Hundreds of people about this that all the research that I possibly could have

been implemented and experimented and, put in all these hours to figure out

the stuff to break it down to these very simple things like the survey.

So here's a survey that is works.

And it's so pain painless.

That's like shocking in a certain way.

So what I would recommend doing is you create a survey that you post

on your site, a link to the survey.

I use Wufoo, doesn't really matter what you use, W U F O, but whatever, you

can use Google Docs, doesn't matter what you use for the survey, something.

But all you want to do is ask for people's name and their email, and you want to

ask about their questions on that subject that you're thinking about for a course.

Okay, so that's it.

Name, email.

What are your questions involving blank.

For example, for me, it was name, email.

I want to know what questions do you have about creating your own interview

show and then an open box where they could ask as many questions as they want.

And there's a few reasons to do this.

Number one is, again, you're going to see now, do you get any responses?

You're going to see some people now that are excited about

this to start to respond to it.

You're going to see if you got, some responses.

And again, you don't need a million responses for this to be valid.

It's just, can you get some responses?

Also, you're now getting people's email when they do the survey.

And oftentimes these people become your very best customers.

A lot of these early survey respondents for create awesome interviews, my course

became some of our very best customers.

Having those, that email address in there is vital.

And also you get to pick up a lot of things here through the survey, how

people talk the language that they use the questions that they have.

And what's funny about it with the survey is that you're going to sit

there and you're going to go, Oh my God.

This is way too basic.

I didn't think people needed to know this that you will be shocked about

the questions that come in on your area of expertise and you'll realize how

much you actually know because it's like that plight of the expert, if you

will, that you know something and you assume everyone else knows it when no

one knows it, very few people know it.

So you put that survey out and you spend basically You know what?

You can to market and promote that survey, meaning like not necessarily

money, but I'm saying, putting it on your blog, putting on your site, putting

it on social media, email blasting out to your current subscribers.

Everything that you can do to get eyes on that survey are critical.

And one more tip on that.

Notice I didn't say anything about Mentioning that you have a course, you're

thinking about doing a course, you have a course coming out, nothing like that.

All you're basically asking is for questions because you want to

help people and later on, you're going to turn that into a course.

You'd be surprised about how much data you can actually get from this.

And also it really starts to become the outline for your course.

Cool.

Yep.

It's just making so much sense.

And I guess with a lot of things in business, once you break

it down, it's quite simple.

And I really love that.

Okay.

So we've created this survey.

We've got all the respondents, all the responses.

What do you do with

that?

At that point, it's decision time, right?

Like it's decision time.

It's Am I going to go forward with this or not?

It's if you're not feeling it, if you don't feel the temperature is

hot enough, if you're not feeling it, go back to step one, right?

It's go back to the beginning, down the chute and try it again.

If you like where you're going with this and you're starting to feel like

people are excited and you're excited about this and you got something going

on really then it becomes time to Start to plan out the actual course and, what,

the mistake that I see here is people start to just run and gun, they just

say, okay, I'm just gonna, just start, creating modules or I figure out how

to record it or whatever it might be.

And, there's still more to do.

On the foundation here.

Foundation is so critical to a course.

And so you really want to map out everything before you go forward.

And one of the key things where people get hung up here, and

this is the time to do this step.

The next step is really to come up with a name for your course, right?

And people get hung up on this name.

It's unbelievable to me.

The name does not matter of the course.

Because the hook and the positioning and all that kind of stuff, that's going

to matter a lot more than the name.

The name could be something very simple.

You can go with something functional, you can go with something

clever, it doesn't really matter.

The most important thing when you choose your name here, which is the

next step, is to have a name where you can get the URL with the dot com.

I don't care what it is, as long as it's something dot com, because that's the most

important thing when it comes to a name.

Gotcha.

Gotcha.

All right.

Fantastic.

So we've then got the name.

I guess format would be potentially the

next thing, is it?

Actually, I don't even, I wouldn't even go to format yet.

After you have the name of your course it's really about coming up with the hook.

And this is the most important thing really of the entire course

creating process, because a lot of this other stuff can be very simple.

But the hook or the X factor is what separates your course

from the market, right?

Because, if you see that there's other courses out there on the market

on a topic or similar topic, that's a good thing, that's a positive.

A lot of people get scared away by that.

They say Oh my God, there's someone else who's doing what I want to do.

That's a great thing because it shows that there's a market for it.

And you want to have a mark.

You want to have buyers for something like that.

So if there's other courses out there, that's great.

Like I saw some other courses on my topics.

That's a great thing.

But when you have other courses, you're gonna have to separate

yourself from the market, right?

So here's some of the key questions you could ask yourself

as you develop your hook.

What are my results with what I'm teaching?

So meaning did you use the methods to make six figures yourself?

Did you use the methods to lose weight?

Did you use the methods to find a girlfriend or boyfriend?

Nothing beats personal experience here when you start

to separate from the pack, right?

A key question to ask is, what are my results?

Another key question to ask is, What else is out there in the market and

in what areas do I feel like I'm doing things differently than them?

This is what I call finding the gap.

Okay, and this is so important when you're coming up with your hook, right?

Because, what is the gap?

So for example, I saw a product that was helping people create their

own show online, but it was way too technical, wait, you'd be like the

biggest tech nerd in the history of mankind to figure out this thing.

And I was like, man, mine is not going to be designed for the tech nerd.

It's going to be designed for non tech nerds, people that don't want to

spend a zillion hours on technology.

And I saw another one that was just like a It would focus on doing a web show,

but not specifically an interview show.

So I knew I could get more specific by doing an interview show.

So by researching, that's why there's so many successful

fitness products out there.

They all have slightly different hooks, just to give you an example, and

that's where I think is very important.

Is.

What else is on your market and how do I feel like I'm doing

things differently from them?

And the other thing to think about is To add that people love step by step and

systems you know that is so so important people love phrases like step by step

or systems Because remember systems sell here and people love to feel like

they're being held, step By their hand as they go here to create their course.

And I think that's a very important when it comes down to positioning your course.

Would you

say that the goal of any course or any paid training is

to actually simplify it for your reader or your viewer in terms of

there's so much information out there online, you can access everything.

There is no doubt about that, but the issue is, I guess

the excess of information can actually be quite confusing.

Yeah,

David Siteman Garland: that's what you're doing.

Because then it was such a good point.

Thank you for pointing that out, Jake because you see this happen all the time,

like where people make that argument oh my God, there's so much information out

there on my subject or, oh, are people going to be willing to pay for what they

could go on Google or YouTube and find for free and, or something like that.

And the answer is yes, because here's what people are paying for.

Number one, they're paying for your perspective on this, right?

Like you.

That's one thing.

Number two, they're basically paying you to be a curator of give me the

very best stuff, the 80 20 rule.

Give me the 20 so that I can go implement this and I don't have

to deal with all the fluff and the BS and the rest of the stuff.

Because people think when creating an online course, this is like a

misconception that they have to throw in everything in the kitchen sink.

That was like internet marketing 1.

0 back in the day is people would like create these courses.

They were like 400 modules, or something like that, like a 3000 page supplement.

No one wants that kind of stuff.

And people start to think Oh, if I need to justify the price I'm charging for this.

I need to include everything.

It's actually the opposite.

You want to include just what are going to get people to that point, even if

it's one sentence, your entire things, it's probably not more than that, If it's

one sentence, but it could teach them something that could get them a result.

People don't need everything, they just need the right things.

And you're there as the curator and bringing this all together

and packaging it up for them.

So they're not searching through YouTube with 3, 000 ads and Google and

all these different confusing things.

You're making it simple and step by step.

Yeah

i guess i need to come you really want is

action right and that's at the end of the day

what you're looking for i mean you're thinking about you know how can i simply

guide them from step one to one to whatever to get them the result that

they want and you know because that's.

At the end of the day, anyone could go out there and create a course, right?

You could go out there, anyone could technically create a course, but

the longevity of doing this is, of course, getting, people to actually

results and, that all comes down to, really execution with all this.

Yeah,

absolutely.

And I guess I know that's the reason for all this pre planning.

You could use the analogy of Olympic swimmer.

They trained for two, three years to prepare for a race where they'll be

potentially in the water for 40 seconds.

Exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

Said.

Said.

What's the next step, David?

Where do we go

from here?

I think the next step the next step for sure at that point is really that you want

to price your course before you do it.

And this is critical because, pricing can make a big difference to say the least.

And here's my suggestion on pricing and this comes from a tip actually

when I was working on one of my first courses, I talked to two good

friends of mine, one's Ryan Lee.

And the other one's Marie Forleo, both, great online entrepreneurs.

And I said, I'm thinking about charging this.

What do you think?

They said, you're way too low.

And I said, what do you mean?

I'm way too low.

That's not very low at all.

And they say, think about this way and Ryan said that it's going to be difficult

to, or not difficult, difficult or easy, depending on how you look at it.

It's going to take effort to market and promote any course online, anything.

And it's just as easy or difficult, depending on how you want to look at

it, to promote a higher price course than it is a lower price course.

From a marketing perspective.

And I was like, Oh, that's interesting.

And then Marie was saying that if you look at all the hours that you've

spent learning this and curating it and all these different things, you can

justify a higher value for your course.

And so one of the biggest mistakes that I see people do is they

price their courses way too low.

Way too low.

Because here's a few reasons why that doesn't work.

Number one is that, the lower you go, the less quality

customers you're going to get.

It's just a fact of the matter.

Number two is that it will require a lot of customers for

it to be a successful course.

So if you price that at, 67 or something like that, it's going to take a lot

of customers to get to six figures.

But if you price placed it at 497, okay, it only takes a few hundred

customers to get to six figures.

Actually, it takes exactly what?

200, 200 customers to get to six figures.

And one of the mistakes I see is where people price it too low.

So my suggestion on pricing for folks is to go out and research and

look at your market and where it's at and be at least equal to the

top people in your market when it comes to creating an online product.

So if you notice that the top people in your market are charging 297,

that's at least where you need to be.

If you see the top people are charging 1, 500.

That's at least where you need to be because there's far more power

and longevity being a premium brand being a sax, if you will, as opposed

to down in the Walmart Kmart range.

And that is one of the, the keys of why you see, and it's not, you're

not doing this to quote unquote, rip people off or anything like that.

Cause you're offering a huge amount of value to them, but you want to

be a premium brand in your market.

And one of the mistakes I see again is pricing stuff way, way too low.

My first course was 497.

So just to give you guys a scope.

It's not about coming out with some super cheap thing and then maybe more expensive

later, don't be afraid here to, because you're gonna be putting some effort

and work into this, that, to not charge what you think it's going to be worth.

And let's look at two things with that.

I guess for me, the important part is about perception with your customer.

It's going to be much easier to get someone to buy into the

course and actually take action if they've paid a lot more

for something.

Oh, that's so true.

It's so true.

It's yeah, if you pay 50 bucks for something, you're gonna be like,

or but it's all relative, but let's just say that's not a lot for you.

And you're like, Oh, okay, I'll just put it on the back burner.

But if you pay, yeah, it's a good point for paying 1000 bucks, you're gonna be

like, you know what, I'm gonna get my darn money's worth in this, I'm gonna go do it.

And I think that's there's something to be said there You get a lot,

believe it or not, you get a lot less refunds or problems or issues

with the higher prices, right?

Because you're attracting more of a premium crowd that's

actually going to do it.

The lower price I can't tell you how many people come to me and I've

talked to them, privately or whatever.

Friends of mine at masterminds or events, they're just like, oh.

God, the lower price people are driving me crazy, not that they're

bad people, but you know what?

They're crazy people sometimes.

So you gotta be careful there.

I think just, and again, if you can have people take action,

then they're potentially, they're more likely to become raving fans and you're

going to get much better testimonials and potentially lifelong customers.

Yeah, exactly.

Like you, once you get it's like the first one's the hardest.

You know what I mean?

Once you're Once you get that going, then you're, really off to the races.

And I think, even today on the, on, on this conversation, we covered

so many foundational things.

And again, that's really the key to getting this stuff going in terms

of where you can think about now.

Cause I don't want to give you guys too much and you're like, Oh

my God, I can't go do all this.

I think there's plenty of information that you guys have now that, people

can go out and say, okay, I can go now.

And, start paying attention to this and send an email out to my list and

send out a survey and think about the positioning and think about the

pricing and think about these things.

I think a lot of folks are gonna be off to a great start here for sure.

Yeah, absolutely.

And that's it.

That's what I'd like to say as well is that if 90% of these interviews covered.

The planning of creating online courses.

The rest of it, as you've said a number of times already is simple.

It's easy.

Basically your course has a structure that you follow that is

basically interchangeable depending on what course you're doing.

It's the planning and ensuring you've got the right content for your

customers, which is the important part.

Exactly.

Exactly.

All right, David, thanks very much for coming on the show.

I really appreciate it.

I've got a lot out of it personally.

I know our listener will as well.

Where can we find out more information about you and also about your

upcoming course that you'll be

releasing?

Yeah, really, the best place to go, honestly, for everyone and

Jake, you might have a special link for folks too, but create awesome

online courses you can send over.

And I've got free training for everyone.

So basically if you've been listening to this and you want

to dive in a little bit deeper.

I've got like super high quality.

It's not like the BS free training that you see sometimes out there.

This is like good stuff.

And I've got a free multi video series for you and an opportunity to join my program

at the end, if it's a fit for you as well.

But either way, I hope you enjoy the free training over at

create awesome online courses.

com.

Absolutely.

And listen, if you've never listened to the rise to the top, make sure you do.

David is one of the most entertaining interviewers out there.

One of my favorites.

David Siteman Garland: Oh, I appreciate that.

And of course you can check that out at the rise to top.

com and I appreciate the kind words, Jake, for sure.

It was fun to that.

All right,

David, thanks very much for coming on the episode.

I've loved it.

And I know our listeners certainly has as well.