John Seed was a 3-piece suit tech worker, then a meditating hippie farmer, before stumbling into his lifelong calling as an environmental activist.

He participated in the world's first direct action to preserve a rain forest in the 1970s. He co-founded the Rainforest Information Center and raised money and awareness to save the "lungs of the planet."

John soon realized that raising awareness wasn't going to accomplish the mission. After all, most people were aware of the damage humans were doing to the planet, but still weren't taking action to stop it.

His discovery of the Deep Ecology movement brought new clarity and led to the creation of new forms of activism. With Buddhist scholar and activist Joanna Macy, John developed what's now known as The Work that Reconnects (and Experiential Deep Ecology in Australia).

This work invites us to honor our feelings, even the most painful and hopeless ones. It asks us to see the possibilities that can arise when we see ourselves as part of, rather than apart from and above, nature.

In our conversation, we talk about capitalism, economics, advertising, right livelihood, psychedelics, 4 billion years of evolution that lives in each of our bodies, and the distinction between personal biographical trauma and that trauma that every living being experiences on a planet at war with itself.

I feel so lucky to be able to imbibe John's wisdom and spirit and humility.

I don't know if I have more hope than before, but I have more clarity, direction, and resolve.

I wish the same for you, and all my human relations.

Links

JohnSeed.net

Thinking Like a Mountain

The Work That Reconnects

Howie: John Seed, welcome to the Plant Yourself podcast. Thank

John: Thanks, Howie.

Howie: you. So, um, I'd love to have you just begin by just sort of tell, telling a little bit of the story of you.

This was something [00:01:00] going on in the neighbourhood. I didn't know that there were rainforests in the neighborhood. I didn't know what a rainforest was, but, uh, I was into helping the neighbors, and so I showed up on day one, and, um, something happened to me that I still haven't recovered from. I can't really explain, but all of a sudden, um, everything shifted into a, a different frame, a different perspective.

And, uh, I understood, uh, that, uh, um, you know, I'd found my mission, uh, and, uh, that was to protect first this rainforest and then eventually, uh, rainforests all over the world.

Howie: And, and what was the threat to this particular rain, which rainforest was it?

Howie: Hmm. And you said, so this was a huge, like, almost instantaneous transformation. What, what were you before this moment?

John: Well, immediately before I was a, sort of, uh, a hippie farmer, Buddhist meditator, we'd built a meditation centre and were organising meditation retreats and, um, growing our own food, building our own houses, delivering our own babies and, uh, living the sort of,

Howie: Uh huh. And so, but, and somehow that, it predisposed you to the activism? Because I, when I think of, of sort of Buddhism and sort of spirituality, there's almost an, uh, there's strains, at least in my limited understanding, of kind of a detachment that, that, you know, the, the thousand things are an illusion, and that we need to work on ourselves.

John: Well, it was very disturbing because, um, as you say, it didn't, uh, it didn't, um, uh, you know, align with what I understood to be Buddhism at all, and so I felt like I was, uh, losing my mind or losing my way or losing something. And, uh, it was only some time later that I found, uh, another strain of Buddhism, uh, called Engaged Buddhism. Buddhism, uh, through, through, uh, teachers like Thich Nhat Hanh and my own teacher, Joanna Macy. Um, and, um, you know, so there is a, uh, you know, an, an element of Buddhism as there is an element, I think, of all of the major religions which do align with, uh, um, you know, defending, defending nature and defending the earth.

John: Well, I mean, uh, I was, uh, one of the few Buddhists involved, and so it certainly informed my activism, but, uh, in fact, uh, the sort of, uh, the hippie, you know, the hippie, um, ethos of that time was all about nonviolence, and, uh, I remember some weeks into the action when we'd had a rally that attracted 2, 000 people and all of a sudden the state and the logging companies realised that this was serious and um, that they had to do something and so, um, the next weekend, uh, the machinery was left in the forest unguarded for the first time. Because it was [00:06:00] insured, obviously, and they were hoping that we would damage the machinery in some way and lose our credibility thereby. And indeed, when they got back to work on Monday morning, they found that someone had cut the electrical wires on the bulldozer and someone else had expertly repaired them. So, you know, it wasn't, we weren't a homogenous group, there were different, uh, there were different strains

Howie: So, um, fast, fast forwarding. So in 1979, you had this string of victories. I imagine It was pretty heady and, and led to probably, you know, what seemed like very justifiable optimism. Uh, so what, what, what next? What

John: uh, I mean, um,

Howie: you

John: some friends and I started, uh, the Rainforest Information Centre. At that time, there were no organisations in the world, uh, dedicated to the protection of the rainforest and, um, Although I'd started out in complete ignorance, um, I quickly came to understand that the rainforests are the very womb of life.

More than 3, 000 people came from all over the country to this remote wilderness. More than 1, 500 of us were arrested and, uh, the dam that was going to be built, that they'd started to build a dam to flood. The heart of the rainforest wilderness, uh, by [00:09:00] damming the Franklin River, the dam was stopped and a national park was declared. And two years after that, uh, we were up in the tropical rainforests 3, 000 miles to the north in far north Queensland. And, uh, had similar successes there. So, it was very, uh, um, you know, em empowering, uh, and heady, as you say. But, at the same time, it was becoming clear that during that first half of the 1980s, for every forest that was being protected worldwide, a thousand forests had been lost. And clearly, there was no way to save the planet, one forest at a time. That unless we could address the underlying Psychological or spiritual disease that allows modern humans to imagine that we can, uh, profit from the destruction of our own life support systems, clearly these actions would amount to nothing, uh, as far as the future of the world was concerned. And, uh, so this was [00:10:00] when I started to, uh, explore, um, philosophy, I suppose, trying to understand, uh, why humans behave in such a self defeating manner.

Howie: discover?

And he proposed that, um, this illusion of separation, um, was a result of anthropocentrism [00:12:00] or human centeredness, the idea that human beings are the center of everything. And he said that this was so deeply embedded in our culture, stretching back at least as far as the Old Testament, where we learn that man is to subdue and dominate nature, and nature is to be in fear and trembling of us, that he said, um, we won't be able to think our way out of the mess that's been created.

Howie: So one of the debates that I've followed in the environmental movement is almost it's around, you know, sort of level and time where there are people who are, say, more militant. Like we have to, you know, if we don't have time to change people's underlying identities and the violence is being committed against us, you know, against us, liver rights and humans.

And if we, you know, so there's that Audrey Lord quote, you can't, the master's tools can't dismantle the master's house. How do you see, you know, this many years on having seen so many victories and defeats, how, how do you, uh, balance those two perspectives?

John: Well, um, I feel as though I've been given my work to do and I'm not at all. Um, I feel a little bit as though there's an amoeba. And it's sending out these pseudopods in many different directions looking for a way out of the trap. And it's not clear to me which of those, if any, is actually going to find the way.

5 percent to [00:16:00] 2. 3%, you know, and there was this bitter struggle going on, and Earth First came out and, uh, they called for 45 percent of the state to be wilderness. Uh, and said that actually, it should be more than half because there was all of these other critters that had every right to be there just the same as humans, but to show how reasonable they were, they were going to settle for 45%. So it's not that they necessarily thought that they were going to get 45%, but it had to have strengthened the hand of the Sierra Club who all of a sudden looked like the kind of moderates

that they are. And, um, you know, so I see, it's just like, there, there are the two sides sitting at the table, uh, you know, negotiating, and, uh, that's important.

And then there's the rabid dog running around underneath biting at their ankles, and, uh, that just helps the process along as well, I

believe.

John: You know, that's always been the weakness of the left, or, you know, what, what, whatever you call it. Uh, yeah, I, I I'm not at all, um, you know, I don't feel like I have an overview of the environmental movement, but it wouldn't surprise me, uh, if, uh, if, if, if, if it turned out that, you know, that the position that I take isn't necessarily popular or common, um, but it's just where I find myself.

identity as someone who like can commune with trees and walk down the street and understand what the crocuses want of me. And yet I'm such a creature of the human built world that it's, it's, it all, you know, it's all sort of aspirational and it just feels like it's happening in my head. And so I'm very curious how you took You know, people like me, sort of, well, well-meaning, you know, Western Fed intellectuals and you got us to actually develop this identity of, of kinship.

Wrong. Everyone's aware. We're far from okay. And, um, so with the work that reconnects or the experiential deep ecology, which is kind of what we call it in Australia, but it's the same thing, um, people, uh, surrender to a series of experiential processes. Uh, where it's not something that is being taught intellectually, but by, uh, sharing these experiences together, um, profound change takes place.

It's not necessary to believe anything, you don't have to believe that that really is the voice of a beaver or what it, you know, and, but invariably when we just allow this to happen, we hear conversations. that we've never heard before and they're, they're profound, their deep conversations take place. And, um, a couple of years after, [00:21:00] after, um, meeting Joanna, uh, I had the privilege to witness a ceremony being conducted by some Indigenous in the southwest of the United States, some Hopi on a mesa. Uh, the whole village was involved in this, uh, ceremony, just a handful of us outsiders. And to my astonishment, they were doing the Council of All Beings, which I thought Joanna and I had invented a couple of years ago, but which they assured me they'd been doing for 10, 000 years without a pause. And as, as I, um, then studied the matter further, I found that I couldn't locate a single example of an Indigenous society that had maintained It's ceremonies that didn't have ceremonies that allowed the people to regularly stop their day to day and to honour all our relations, to honour the earth, to sink our roots deep into [00:22:00] our ecological identity. And, um, so I feel now that the reason why, um, the experience is so profound for everybody who participates in it What Joanna says is that it's the intention that brings us together that does all the heavy lifting. That, um, where there's a separation between human beings and the rest of the natural world, it's all coming from our side. The earth never pushed us away, and the moment we make a gesture of reconciliation, the earth comes rushing back in, because we are connected. I mean, it's like, We can understand intellectually that every cell in my body is descended in an unbroken chain from the first cell of life on earth. So, we've studied the evolution, we understand this intellectually, but that isn't part of our identity until we move back into a kind of a ceremonial, um, and ritual [00:23:00] way that demonstrate, where we demonstrate this to ourselves so that we have it as an experience rather than a ritual. As another thought bubble. And so, uh, what I would say is, uh, just, um, uh, take a weekend and join the any work that reconnects. There's lots going on all over the States. Just join any of them. You don't need a particular lea It's got nothing to do with the skills of the facilitator. All that matters is the intention of the people that brings them together and then it all happens by itself and it's always like profound

and it will be profound for you and it doesn't matter how, um, you know, uh, how much a creature of the 21st century you are because we're all in the same boat actually.

Surely I would be crushed. That's why I have to keep these feelings away. Wrong, says Joanna. They're just feelings. They're just part of our humanity. Indeed, they're part of our [00:25:00] intelligence. That when we look at our history, our pre human as well as human history, we can't help but conclude that Every single one of our ancestors was intelligent enough to reach the age of reproducing itself before it was consumed, without exception. And, um, for 4, 000 million years, not a single ancestor that failed to meet that test. And 99. 99999 percent of that intelligence preceded cognition. It was before we grew this lump over our nose and started thinking our way through the world. So what we call feelings is what remains in us of this ancient intelligence that has stood the test of time and that unerringly led our ancestors to be able to distinguish what was safe and what was dangerous and when to, uh, flee and when to fight. And, uh, all of these things. So as we suppress what, you know, you can call it [00:26:00] intuition, you can call it instinct, but what we call feelings is what remains in us of this ancient intelligence and we suppress that at our peril. So when we get together in the work that reconnects and we, uh, create a safe container, that's what Joanna has taught us, how to create a safe container that invites these feelings, that honors these feelings, uh, It's unlike anything that, you know, people who are new to this have never experienced anything like this before, because there's nothing in the world that is like this.

But, you know, there may be someone just screaming in rage, people are weeping, and um, At the end of it, one is, it's, it's, the next process after honouring our pain for the world is called seeing with new eyes. Because honouring our pain for the world washes the scales away from our eyes and we can see the world afresh.

Howie: Hmm.

John: she called this, uh, despair and empowerment. That, uh, what she found was that when people had the courage, when, when people, um, would get together in a group and invite their despair and honour each other's despair, that, um, the upshot was empowerment. That, um, you know, these feelings of pushing up with, uh, Uh, instinctual force, that, uh, natural selection behind them, that any mammal that is running towards something wagging its tail, when it should be running away as fast as it can, doesn't leave its genes in the gene pool. That accuracy of these feelings is honed in every single generation, that it's only a You know, that this, that this is part of our survival mechanism. So it's pushing up with that energy behind it. And we're pushing back with an equal and opposite force of social conditioning and, uh, oh, you know, no one will like me.

It's amazing. All of that vanishes when people, um, do the, uh, despair work and, uh, and then, um, this, uh, incredible feeling of empowerment sweeps through the circle. So, um, that was a long answer, but the short answer is, uh, please do check it out. Just go along to a work that reconnects one day and, uh, you'll understand.

like the, the, the, you know, they may not know that they're being bothered by the destruction of some plot of land in the Amazon, but they know that they're miserable and they're alienated and they're lonely and they have tremendous feelings of guilt or fear or anxiety that they just want to get away from.

John: Well, I mean, there's a whole field of, uh, what's called eco psychology, which, uh, was, I guess, started in some way by Theodore Rojak, uh, who was at the University of California in the 60s, a historian, and James Hillman, who was a Jungian analyst, um, maybe still is, I'm not sure if he's still alive or not, but, um, um, you know, it's interesting that, um, one of the, in my introduction to the Um, what we call the Truth Mandala, that's the name of the ceremony that we do to honor our pain for the world, to invite these feelings out, to create a safe container for these feelings. I quote, uh, an exchange that Thich Nhat Hanh, the, uh, uh, famous, um, uh, Vietnamese Buddhist, uh, meditation teacher, monk, uh, had an exchange [00:31:00] with some of his students where once they asked him, um, they said, Sir, Um, what is the most important thing that we can do for the healing of our world? And his reply was, the most important thing we can do for the healing of our world is to hear inside ourselves the sounds of the earth crying. So that's interesting because on the one hand, um, why would that be the most important thing? And the only answer I could come up with is that if we're not prepared to hear those cries, how could we possibly be in a position to address them? We have to open ourselves to feeling the pain of the earth in order to do anything about it. But in the context of your question, the other piece is, it says to me, Oh, you mean that those cries that I've been hearing inside myself since I was a kid, aren't necessarily just my biographical material. My mum didn't love me or she weaned me [00:32:00] too early, the traumas that I suffered and so on. Do you mean that that might be the earth that I hear crying inside me? And that's, uh, very challenging because we've been taught to frame the thing because of the, uh, separation that our culture, you know, our culture says we're separate from the world, we're not in a position, the world is dead, it, it doesn't have feelings, you know, the earth doesn't cry, only humans cry, and only humans cry for human things, you know. And so, um, you know, it just blows the thing wide open, if, if that is, um, not just the cries and not only the cries of my own biography, but that's the cries of the earth. If the earth was crying, where would the cries be heard, if not in the human heart? Where else could they possibly be heard? And so it, uh, it, it kind of releases the possibility that instead of going to see a therapist, I might decide to be an activist to do something about those cries because [00:33:00] they aren't, you know, and so, um, of course. There are the, the personal traumas, there are the injuries that we've suffered, and, and I'm not trying to, um, belittle that side of things, but I, I must say things have changed for me a lot since I understood, uh, you know, what Joanna was saying and what Thich Nhat Hanh was saying.

John: Well, um, I don't know the answer to that, but the thought that pops into my mind is, um, I, I don't know if you're familiar with Francis Weller's, um, work into, uh, into grief and, uh, sorrow, but, um, uh, he spoke about different, uh, kinds of sorrow, and one of the ones that he mentioned that I find, uh, very interesting is the sorrow that comes from, um, the things that we were led to expect. When we were born didn't show up, do you know? So we were led to expect a breast and if a piece of rubber is shoved into our mouth there's a sorrow associated with that, you know? And if we were led to expect that we would be surrounded by people who knew us and that we would walk outside our door [00:35:00] and there would be familiar faces smiling at us And instead, we walk out in the middle of the city and nobody looks into each other's eyes, you know? And so, for that reason, I would guess That there are sorrows that we, who are so alienated from our, you know, true nature, from our true identity. We've been just sold this bill of goods that I'm nothing more than a skin encapsulated ego that's It inevitably estranged from, you know, like maybe there's one other human being or a few other human beings that I can love, but, you know, that I'm cut off from the world, you know, that, and, um, you know, so the kind of processes that we do, they're really simple, but it's amazing how profound they are when you spend a lot of time together with people, is that we just add, for example, [00:36:00] consciousness to the world. We understand intellectually that we, our life is a result of the exchange of gases between ourselves and, um, the plant kingdom. That the oxygen that we breathe is created by the plants and, um, We, uh, return carbon dioxide to them in exchange, and this ancient cycle of partnership has been going on since both of our ancestors, the plants and the animals, uh, were single celled organisms in the ocean, uh, more than two billion years ago.

Because this is going on all the time. In every single breath we are proving that there is no consciousness. out there and there is no in here. It's all cycling through itself. It's all cycling through each other. That's the reality. But we don't experience the world in that way because we've lost the ceremonies that all Indigenous people, including of course our ancestors, were all Indigenous, were all pagan, were all animist for a quarter of a million years until very recently [00:38:00] and now we've Gone and, you know, got lost in the desert.

We've estranged ourselves. But what the work that Reconnect shows us is that, uh, it's really simple finding your way back. That, uh, um, anybody who is willing to take the risk of just feeling really stupid having wasted a whole weekend with a bunch of people doing woo woo kind of, you know, nonsense, you know, nonsense, Take the risk that that's what, you know, what, what's the worst thing that's going to happen?

Do you know? Is that you feel like an idiot because of what, what a waste of time. Uh, that never happens, you know, every single person at the workshop is swept away by the Consensus of, you know, the feelings that sweeps through the whole group where we just have this feeling of coming home coming home to the world coming home

to each other and Um, I don't know. Yeah,

Sorry Like I said

John: beautiful.

Howie: So, yeah, and I love, I love how close that at hand that is. All right, like my listeners now could go out and do that this moment, um, although I, I'm, I'm also hearing that, um, you know, it's like, what can, I, I can't remember where the quote comes from, might've been Bill McKibben, where someone said like, what can we do as individuals?

And he said, stop being an individual, right? Right. So,

John: Well, I mean, it's you know when I'm something that Um, I've done previously on podcasts is, uh, you know, and maybe if we ever do this again, uh, we should do this, uh,

Howie: Mm hmm. Nice. So what one thing that I struggle with so, you know, I sort of have a protean living where I do some writing and training and teaching and coaching and there's months that are great and there's months that are thin and There's always this impulse to You know go where the money is and in our in in my world where the money is is usually not the people who are Preserving the rainforest but in some in some sense Extracting or exploiting even if it's, you know making electronics or you know Whatever folks are doing in this society that to make money is you know almost always to extract from the [00:42:00] earth without reciprocity.

And so I'm, I'm wondering how you, how you could help me think about making a living. You know, and, and also there's, you know, there's whole view, like abundance. Like there's all these ways of thinking about abundance from breath or from like, the world is gonna give me what I need and I can live in a beautiful place and there's other people who can't.

And, you know, help, help me think through that from a deep ecology perspective, if you would.

John: Hmm. I'm not, I'm not sure that, um, nothing's coming to me straight away, Howie,

and I'm not sure that Deep Ecology

Um, or, you

Do you know that? Uh, it's, it's not a science. Uh, it, it, it, it's a religion and

You've never met anyone who's got to the end of that where they go. Oh, that's enough, you know? And so the thing about deep ecology is that when we fall in love with the planet, when we allow ourselves to feel this surge of connection, and when we realise that love is one of the many gifts of the planet, that, that, that the universe is just this splendid kind of place that's full of, um, wonder and mystery and, um, then in, in a way, it's enough. Do you know, that it's, it's, it's not that, it's, it's a, I guess my question is, is it, is it, how, is it easier to figure out an ethical way to make a bunch of money or to figure out a way to [00:46:00] need less of it in order to feel, um, satisfied and alright, you know, just feel okay. So um, I'm, I'm, I'm not trying to put myself out as a, as an example of someone who's reached the end of. some road or anything. I'm not. I'm just a broken individual like all of us. And, uh, um, you know, I'm not trying to say that I've solved the riddle of the universe or anything like that. But I do know that, you know, when we do, uh, a weekend of the work that reconnects, at the end of it, people in the last sharing circle, people express this tremendous feeling of relief. of their suffering, this tremendous feeling of connection and having come home and of joy and love. And we spent 48 hours together and consumed nothing more than the food that we've [00:47:00] eaten and do you know, like it's cost the world nothing, that 48

hours. So there are things that you can do which feel just as good as owning a Ferrari, you know. But that don't, that don't have the, don't have the costs involved. So, locating those is the closest that I can get to answering

your

And, you know, you've, you've spoken now about this, the work that reconnects and the incredible healing potential of it for us as individuals, for us as communities, and as a members of the planetary coalition. And, um, you've also spoken about your, you know, experiences, I think, with ayahuasca and with, with, um, I think psilocybin.

Um, what do you, what do you see as the, the, um, the ways that those sort of more intensive experiences can reconnect us, can heal us? You've, you've spoken quite openly about, um, you know, your own psychological processes around that. Um, I haven't heard from you in a couple of years around, about that. I'm wondering if you could kind of take, take us through and up to now.

you know? You know, pressed this powder in my hand and said you must take this and, uh, I was terrified but I did and, um, I can't remember what happened but it was very powerful and, uh, it turned my whole life around, uh, I believe it was LSD but of course who, who knows what it [00:50:00] was, uh, you know, but, uh, um, all of a sudden, uh, I started my life afresh.

that's not such an unusual story from that period, there was a lot of people having, you know, these kind of experiences, and, and since then, um, um, you know, it's not, it's not something that I do frequently, you know, maybe, um, twice in the last year I've, uh, You know, partaken of, um, you know, ayahuasca and, uh, that's been my most recent sort of guide. [00:51:00] And it's just like, uh, it feels like, you know, just that you, you're crawling around, you know, in the weeds and you can't ever see very far and all of a sudden you get to shove your head up out of it and get a look at the horizon and get a sense of, of perspective and you can see where you're going and you can see where you've come from and things like that.

So. Um, I've found it, uh, very helpful, but, um, it depends entirely on set and setting. Um, so that it means that, you know, who you are, and how you're living your life and what your intention is in, um, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a powerful sacrament. And um, you know, if you, if you're taking it as a, you know, as a way to, um, you know, party, then maybe, you know, like that, I don't, I don't do that, but maybe, it, you know,

you'd have to talk to someone else to find out about what, what that's

Howie: Yeah. Well, I'm thinking of it in terms of, you know, the, the way you describe like the earth is reaching out to us and we only have to stop for a moment, turn around with, with gratitude, with, with an identity of connection. Um, and, you know, so, so when I think about the conscious, intentional earth, Gaia, and Right now it's kind of mostly a thought in my head.

It's a, it's a intellectual concept, but I'm thinking like, okay, the, you know, the fires, like the earth is crying. It's trying to get our attention and the, the, the rapid influx of, um, consciousness around psychedelics. I'm wondering, is that, you know, sort of like a, a peace party, a parlay from the earth say, you know, this will help.

the fact that, that mushrooms can create this kind of an experience and that humans can, you know, why would the [00:54:00] human created, you know, compound be any less valid than, than, than the one that comes, you know, than the, the mushrooms create.

And then, oh, cement. And what's the cement? Oh, well, it's sand and it's limestone and, you know, like, at, at, at that point you realise that there's no such thing as unnatural, you know, there are things that are not conducive for. Um, mammal, you know, uh, well being, you know, there are things that are poisonous and, you know, that we should stay away from, but unnatural is itself a kind of a, um, you know, uh, you can, you can contest that term and sort of say, no, there's nothing that's unnatural.

Howie: Lovely, beautiful. Um, so as, as, as we close one, one of the things that you said in the previous interview that really stuck with me was that you don't, and you alluded to it earlier today, that you don't need trained facilitators. You don't, you know, it's not about, Oh, I've been doing this for 30 years and you're going to have, you know, I can guide you through this experience of the work that reconnects or the deep ecology experiences.

John: Oh, well, I mean, first you've got to have the experience before you can share the experience. So the first thing is participate in the work that Reconnect does. And, uh, you know, look it up. You'll find it. It won't be far away. Participate in it. What I'm saying is you don't need to wait for someone, you know, um, it's like the workshop I'm doing this coming weekend. Um, it's full. There's a waiting list. Um, there are three co facilitators, I'm training lots of people, but training is in a funny kind of a way where I'm just letting them realise that there's nothing to it, you know? That basically, Joanna and I and Arne Naess and Pat Fleming wrote this book, Thinking Like a Mountain, towards the Council of All Beings in 1988, it's kind of a recipe book for exactly what we're saying, how to do this. So people just have a script. So this workshop coming up, because I have three co [00:58:00] facilitators, I'm actually not going to facilitate anything. All I'm going to do is a bit of an introduction and a poem here and there. And, you know, if any of them have a question, or if they miss something out, I can step in. But, um, you know, when I do a workshop, I say to people, you know, you will think that this incredible experience that we're all having is because of me, because, you know, it's, it's, you know, you're wrong. It's got nothing to do with me, and people say, yeah, yeah, we understand, and at the end they say, oh, you were fantastic, you know, and I'm like, no, no, you didn't get it. But this weekend that's not going to happen because I'm not going to do anything. The only people doing anything will have a script. I know it off by heart because I've been doing it for years. Decades. They will have a script and they will read it off the script and they will mispronounce some of the words.

It's not something that Um, that we can do as individuals. What we need is to create a culture of connection, like the cultures of our ancestors, who, you know, um, were, were torn from, you know, and it, if it's true that, uh, what does Star Wars say? Nine million people. Women were burnt at the stake in the, in the witch, uh, witch, uh, witch era, and that, uh, this was, um, for worshipping the earth, you know, no wonder we're, uh, running as fast as we can after, after that kind of an experience, but, uh, it looks like, uh, the tide has turned, it looks like it's coming back, and find, find, find some people [01:00:00] who, uh, who share, who share these feelings and, um, um, figure it out

together.

Howie: Beautiful. John Seed. Thank you so much. Can, how, how can people find your work, stay in touch with you online?

John: Oh, well, John Seed deep Ecology will find me, I've got, you know, Instagram and Facebook and so on. Uh, I don't, um, I don't leave Australia anymore, I've kind of used up ten lifetimes of carbon and, uh, so the only way I leave Australia is with your help, Howie, and, uh, thanks so

Howie: Oh, such, such an honor and a pleasure. Um, my heart is full right now and I'm sure this is going to ripple out in ways that neither of us can, can predict. So thank you so much for all you do and for taking the time today.

John: Thank you, Howie.

There's an ultimate tournament this weekend. I don't know how much I'm going to play both because, uh, I'm not all there. And because it's we have a full roster and I'm not near one of the better players on the team. So we shall see how that will go.

That's about it for now. Uh, look forward to talking to you again next week. And as always be well, my friends.