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The Oregon Trail's most famous stop - Fort Laramie
Episode 74 • 28th August 2023 • Talk With History: Discover Your History Road Trip • Scott and Jenn of Walk with History
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In an enlightening episode of Talk with History, we embarked on a captivating journey through the past to uncover the profound history of Fort Laramie, Wyoming, and its integral role along the Oregon Trail. As a pivotal crossroads of exploration, Fort Laramie not only provided respite for pioneers braving the Oregon Trail's challenges but also served as a site of intricate diplomatic negotiations with Indigenous nations.

This exploration underscored the intertwined narratives of courage and cooperation, reminding us that history is a dynamic force shaping our present. The episode emphasized the importance of recognizing history's living influence and staying curious as we continue to Talk with History.

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Transcripts

Scott:

Welcome to Talk With History.

Scott:

I'm your host, Scott, here with my wife and historian, Jen.

Scott:

On this podcast, we give you insights into our history inspired world travels,

Scott:

YouTube channel journey, and examine history through deeper conversations

Scott:

with the curious, the explorers, and the history lovers out there.

Scott:

I'm going to ask a favor that's a little bit different to our listeners today.

Scott:

I want you guys, if you're listening, To take a screenshot of your podcast

Scott:

player right now, take a screenshot and then text that to a friend that you

Scott:

think might enjoy this episode, because we're going to talk about an interesting

Scott:

topic and I'm sure you saw it from the episode title today, but I bet there's

Scott:

plenty of folks that probably played.

Scott:

Oregon Trail when they were kids.

Scott:

So take a screenshot real quick.

Scott:

You can text it to a friend later, tell them to look us up and

Scott:

listen to this episode, because I think they're going to enjoy it.

Jenn:

Now,

Scott:

today we're embarking on a journey to the rugged landscapes of Wyoming where

Scott:

the echoes of the past still resonate through the walls of Fort Laramie.

Scott:

Our spotlight shines on an iconic waypoint of the American West where

Scott:

cultures collide, treaters were signed.

Scott:

And the dreams of a new life were kindled along the Oregon Trail.

Scott:

Nestled at the crossroads of adventure and opportunity, Fort Laramie holds within

Scott:

its weathered bricks and timbers a saga that shaped the destiny of a nation.

Scott:

From its humble beginnings as a fur trading post in the early 19th

Scott:

century, to its pivotal role as a military garrison and treaty ground,

Scott:

this historic site witnessed tales of hardship, Camaraderie and transformation.

Scott:

Now Jen, we got to walk for Laramie.

Scott:

It was a very windy day.

Scott:

Windy Wyoming.

Jenn:

But tell us about it.

Jenn:

So, Fort Laramie, it holds a special place in my heart because growing

Jenn:

up in Cheyenne, this was a, probably a yearly stop for your field trips.

Jenn:

Sure.

Jenn:

And as you age, you learn different stories of the fort.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

But, uh, You kind of went at a young age, I think fourth, fifth grade is when

Jenn:

I first went out there, and I remember learning, you know, about the families

Jenn:

that came through on the Oregon Trail, and as you got older, you learn more

Jenn:

about the cultures of the American Indian, and the soldier, and the treaties,

Jenn:

and a lot of the survival, uh, that happened during that time and the change.

Jenn:

But, um, yeah, Fort Laramie, I also played Oregon trail a lot and I

Jenn:

actually have a handheld game of it that I don't even let the kids play.

Jenn:

I got that for you for Christmas.

Jenn:

Yes.

Jenn:

And so Fort Laramie is very significant cause it's a stop on the Oregon

Jenn:

trail, but also on the Mormon trail.

Jenn:

And on the California trail, so there's like three trails that kind of go

Jenn:

through that area of people who were homesteading, making their way out West

Jenn:

and it would come through that area.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Scott:

And actually for the video, that's one of the things we show early

Scott:

in the video was kind of a map showing the convergence of some of these

Scott:

trails and how they, how everything really converged at Fort Laramie.

Scott:

Yeah,

Jenn:

it did because it was pretty much the last stop before it's going to get.

Jenn:

Really rough.

Jenn:

Yeah before the Rockies.

Jenn:

Before the Rockies.

Jenn:

Before the mountains.

Jenn:

And so Fort Laramie started out and I want to talk about the name so in 1815

Jenn:

there it's along a river there and a lot of fur trapping is happening in the

Jenn:

West for beaver pelts because everyone has their fur hats and there was a fur

Jenn:

trapper named Jacques Oh, interesting.

Jenn:

And he went out to trap in like, um, 1918 or 1920 and he was never seen again.

Jenn:

And the story goes that the Arapaho, who were one of the tribes out there

Jenn:

at the time, uh, killed him and put his body in a beaver dam in that river.

Jenn:

Huh.

Jenn:

And so they called it the Laramie.

Jenn:

River.

Jenn:

And so you're gonna get Fort Laramie, you're gonna get the city of Laramie, all

Jenn:

of that is named after that fur trader

Scott:

of 1815.

Scott:

Wow, now that's an interesting one.

Scott:

That's a little bit different.

Scott:

It's not just named after some famous person who was out there first and

Scott:

kind of planted their flag, so.

Jenn:

At about the 1930s, so about 15 years later, this

Jenn:

becomes a very significant stop.

Jenn:

for the fur trade.

Jenn:

Yeah, 1830s.

Jenn:

1830s.

Jenn:

Oh, sorry.

Jenn:

Yes.

Jenn:

Yes.

Jenn:

1830s.

Jenn:

So about 15 years later, 1830s.

Jenn:

So when you think of the remnant with Leonardo DiCaprio, right?

Jenn:

These fur trappers who are out there making their living by hunting

Jenn:

wildlife and buffalo and the hides.

Jenn:

And the beaver pelt, and because it's right there along a river, and I talk

Jenn:

about with this river, there's life.

Jenn:

This is a place where trading is happening between the white fur

Jenn:

traders and the American Indians that are out there at the time.

Jenn:

And so it gets started as Fort William in 1830.

Jenn:

And that's kind of what it is for a significant amount of time and

Jenn:

really until about 15 years later.

Jenn:

when the U.

Jenn:

S.

Jenn:

Army will purchase it in 1849.

Jenn:

And that's when it really becomes Fort Laramie.

Jenn:

And that's when the Army will come on and it's going to become, uh, you

Jenn:

know, a trading post, a diplomatic site, and then it's the military

Jenn:

installations that are there.

Jenn:

Well,

Scott:

and it makes sense to me that The military would kind of establish

Scott:

itself there because, you know, us being in the military and the Navy, right?

Scott:

Navy bases are on strategic coastal areas.

Scott:

Same thing with army, army forts, right?

Scott:

So it makes sense to me that there, it's such a conversion,

Scott:

such a central point in that.

Scott:

Western part of what wasn't even the United States yet.

Scott:

No, you know, it was really just kind of a wild Western territories That they

Scott:

would they would set up shop there because it was such a kind of a strategic spot.

Scott:

Sure.

Jenn:

So if you watch 1883 or anything like that on TV you see how the

Jenn:

wagon trains are very vulnerable as they're heading out west for attacks

Jenn:

from so Fort Laramie the military kind of set it up there for a stop

Jenn:

where you could be safe, you could

Scott:

regroup.

Scott:

Because there wasn't any

Jenn:

treaties yet.

Jenn:

There wasn't any treaties yet.

Jenn:

So the first treaty would happen in 1851.

Jenn:

And that treaty does happen because of the unrest and the attacks that are happening.

Jenn:

And there is a compromise where the American Indians won't attack, uh, and

Jenn:

over 10, 000 people from the Northern Plains gathered near the fort and they

Jenn:

pledged to allow, uh, the immigrants or the, um, the settlers to have safe passage

Jenn:

and return for 50, 000 in antiquity goods.

Jenn:

But two years later, the piece is broken.

Jenn:

I mean, this is just, you know, this is a time of unrest of

Jenn:

cultures clashing in America.

Jenn:

Uh, and you're going to get during this time in just 1949 alone,

Jenn:

like that one year where they first start the fort, you get.

Jenn:

20, 000 to 40, 000, uh, people coming through there and we

Jenn:

show the ways they traveled.

Jenn:

The Mormons had those carts, those hand

Scott:

carts, hand drawn carts.

Scott:

I mean, it's not like they had a bunch of horse, horse drawn carts.

Scott:

I mean, they had some oxen, like you were pointing out in the video, but it was

Scott:

mostly like, them carrying it by hand.

Jenn:

Carrying it by hand.

Jenn:

So when you think about this, I want people to think like it wasn't the horses.

Jenn:

It's oxen.

Jenn:

Oxen are a little more hardy.

Jenn:

And not everybody has that because not everyone people are

Jenn:

trying to make their fortune.

Jenn:

So they don't have really a lot of money to have those things.

Jenn:

And plus I show the wagon and all the things that You would put in a wagon.

Jenn:

It's just more weight.

Jenn:

It's more time and people would leave those things along the way

Scott:

And I thought it was interesting too that you pointed out

Scott:

with kind of some close up shots of the wagon I didn't realize that the

Scott:

wheels had metal rims around them

Jenn:

Yeah, so they're made of wood but they have metal rims around

Jenn:

them and that's again for the sturdiness of the wheel and And it

Jenn:

gives you longevity of the wheel.

Jenn:

But if you throw a wheel, just like if you play Oregon Trail, if you throw a

Jenn:

wheel, break a wheel, you have to fix the wheel or have another wheel, or you have

Jenn:

to leave the wagon behind, basically.

Jenn:

And so a lot of people are walking.

Jenn:

There's not, you know, some people are riding horses.

Jenn:

And we've talked about different characters in history, Cody,

Jenn:

Buffalo Cody, and people who are giving assistance to wagon trains.

Jenn:

But a lot of people are walking and the handcart is just a remnant of that.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Scott:

And, and it was.

Scott:

It was pretty neat being at Fort Laramie because not only were

Scott:

there the new, obviously the newer buildings like the visitor center

Scott:

and things like that, but there were the remnants of these old buildings.

Scott:

Like one of the shots, some of my favorite shots that I was able to get that kind

Scott:

of gave you the feel for what it must have looked like was the old hospital.

Scott:

Yes.

Scott:

You know, now is the old hospital is literally just some like ruins of like

Scott:

four or five walls, but there, there are some pretty old structures that are still

Jenn:

standing there.

Jenn:

So they have kind of a mix of, uh, of ruins and restored structures.

Jenn:

So there is, the hospital is ruins, but then they have some barracks that

Jenn:

have been restored, but there were more than just that one building of

Jenn:

barracks, but the restored barracks, you get a sense for what it looked like.

Jenn:

They, they put cots in there, they put the tables in there, they put places where

Jenn:

the men ate, and they show you also the tents because that also was overflow.

Jenn:

And then they have officer housing, but they have ruins of officer housing.

Jenn:

But one of the oldest structures.

Jenn:

And I think it's the oldest structure in Wyoming is there at Fort Laramie.

Jenn:

It's old Bedlam.

Jenn:

Yeah, that's right.

Jenn:

So old Bedlam was a bachelor officer's quarters.

Jenn:

It was built in 1849.

Jenn:

And this is Wyoming's oldest documented building that is still standing.

Jenn:

And like I said, it was bachelor officers quarters in the 1850s.

Jenn:

And then it was a post headquarters 1860s.

Jenn:

And they have it kind of recreated.

Jenn:

So you can look in the window, you know, look in the doors and see what

Scott:

And if I remember right you said it got the name Old Bedlam because of all

Scott:

this noise and sound Yeah, kept coming out of all the rowdiness that kept coming out

Scott:

because it was bachelors quarters, right?

Scott:

So they're having a grand

Jenn:

old time which another thing I talk about is how Unless it was, they

Jenn:

say, the big two months of when people were really coming through Fort Laramie.

Jenn:

Probably summertime.

Jenn:

It was boring.

Jenn:

It really was a boring place to be stationed.

Jenn:

And I think

Scott:

when I did the research and I put it on the video, it was about

Scott:

three to four hundred men that were stationed there at any given time.

Scott:

Probably, it probably fluxed a little bit there, but that's a

Scott:

good chunk to just be sitting.

Scott:

And driving up to Fort Laramie was kind of my first time driving through Wyoming.

Scott:

Um, I may have driven in parts of Wyoming when I was really, really

Scott:

young, but driving, you know, from there, we had drove up from Cheyenne

Scott:

and it's just vast open spaces.

Scott:

Like I've never.

Scott:

So, driving out west in that part of the country, like you

Scott:

truly feel smaller out there.

Scott:

You get a real sense of how just grandiose everything is and then you get up to

Scott:

Fort Laramie and like, man, Fort Laramie is relatively well known and a lot of

Scott:

people kind of associate it with, with the Oregon Trail as a, as a stopping point.

Scott:

But there is nothing around

Jenn:

there.

Jenn:

So when you hit it.

Jenn:

Think about how excited people were because this is

Jenn:

a like a communication hub.

Jenn:

This is like The principal military post on the Northern Plains.

Jenn:

So this is where it's stage lines are gonna come through Pony

Jenn:

Express is gonna come through The Transcontinental Telegraph, they're

Jenn:

all gonna pass through Fort Laramie.

Jenn:

And you saw how windy it was that day.

Scott:

It was so frustrating from a filming standpoint because it

Scott:

was so windy it actually made it a little bit less pleasant to actually

Scott:

walk around and try to enjoy it.

Scott:

Um, I mean, it's tough, but you were used to it, right?

Scott:

Cause you grew up there.

Jenn:

That's typical Wyoming.

Jenn:

And so we always would say windy Wyoming because it's the plains.

Jenn:

So when you live on the plains, there's nothing stopping the wind.

Jenn:

And so it can, the wind just whips through.

Jenn:

Now it's not cold wind.

Jenn:

It's like a warm wind.

Jenn:

It's kind of like a Santa Ana kind of thing if you live in California.

Jenn:

But it's very windy, but it just was interesting to to be there and to be

Jenn:

out there and to see it As an adult after coming so many times as a children

Jenn:

as a child but they they have again, it's a mix of restored buildings and

Jenn:

ruins, but they they had a demonstration where they fired a cannon And the

Jenn:

Visitor's Center is like an old, um, warehouse, stores warehouse, so that's

Jenn:

where the Visitor's Center is now.

Jenn:

And they have a, they had a teepee out there, so you could see the

Jenn:

American Indians who would come there.

Scott:

And I will say one thing before we move on to kind of

Scott:

some of the other structures.

Scott:

The Visitor's Center, so for our kids, we tend to take, you know, our kids

Scott:

to the Visitor's Center so they can do whatever kind of booklet that they have

Scott:

for them to do for a Junior Ranger thing.

Scott:

It's usually some sort of scavenger hunt.

Scott:

The scavenger hunt at Fort Laramie is no joke.

Scott:

Freaking joke.

Scott:

I mean, we weren't able to finish the whole thing because it's because

Scott:

everything's so spread out because there's so much space there They

Scott:

don't have to be close and confined.

Scott:

So I'm tracking around with our eight year old daughter And we weren't

Scott:

able to finish the whole thing.

Jenn:

It's a lot because it was prayed ground there It

Scott:

was so much there's so much that you could spend an entire

Scott:

day there with you with kids

Jenn:

easily well and like You're thinking of all these families coming

Jenn:

through on the Oregon Trail and they're going to set up their little camps, and

Jenn:

so they're going to want a place along the river, they're going to want some

Jenn:

area, they're going to want some space, so that's kind of what it's set up for.

Jenn:

We, some of the significant things that come out of Fort Laramie, we talk about

Jenn:

pretty often is the Treaty of 1868 and that treaty is the one that is going

Jenn:

to be controversial for the Sioux Wars.

Jenn:

This is the one that sets up the actual reservation for the

Jenn:

Black Hills for the Lakota Sioux.

Jenn:

And when that's broken, when gold is discovered and the Lakota

Jenn:

Sioux leave, that is the treaty that they're trying to enforce.

Jenn:

Uh, but they amend it and they break down that one reservation.

Jenn:

in, on the Black Hills into the six other reservations leading up to Little

Jenn:

Bighorn leading up to Little Bighorn.

Jenn:

So it's always the Treaty of Fort Laramie that they're talking about.

Jenn:

So it is a diplomatic site in that regard.

Jenn:

It's a well known area.

Jenn:

It's where the American Indians would travel to, to meet with the

Jenn:

government and the people who are representing the government there to, to

Scott:

negotiate those treaties.

Scott:

Oh, yeah.

Scott:

I mean, and it was some relatively well known Native American leaders.

Scott:

I mean, I don't know if it was.

Scott:

Sitting bowl or red cloud.

Scott:

Yeah, so some very well known even even to us to the average.

Scott:

Yeah, you know Uh, American, you know, kind of growing up here,

Scott:

here in the states that, that met there to sign these treaties.

Jenn:

That's kind of one of the things I really liked about Fort Laramie.

Jenn:

It's, it's tied to a lot of American history.

Jenn:

We talked about calamity Jane was at Fort Laramie, she's actually

Jenn:

was at the hospital there.

Jenn:

Uh, this is where she's gonna meet with the wagon train with Wild Bill Hickok,

Jenn:

and they're gonna leave from Fort Laramie on their way up to Deadwood.

Jenn:

South Dakota.

Jenn:

Uh, there's an old bordello that's about a mile from Fort Laramie.

Jenn:

We didn't happen to hit that, but that is, uh, a, a, a national site and, uh, that

Jenn:

Calamity Jane worked out of that bordello.

Jenn:

So, I mean, of course, where there's soldiers, there's,

Scott:

there's business, there's old

Jenn:

doves.

Jenn:

Um, and so the Fort is just very.

Jenn:

busy and prosperous during these Oregon Trail years, but by 1890 it's

Jenn:

when it's it's closed It's not there.

Jenn:

No one's coming through much anymore.

Jenn:

It's it's sold at auction I mean,

Scott:

is that largely because had the railroads kind of gotten set up by

Scott:

then was it just taking it past them?

Jenn:

Sure.

Jenn:

So after the railroad was complete It, it kind of passed Fort Laramie, so the fort's

Jenn:

importance is going to be diminished.

Jenn:

Uh, the last soldier is going to leave April 20th, 1890, but, um, in

Jenn:

1938, President Roosevelt is going to proclaim Fort Laramie a national

Jenn:

monument, and then it's designated a National Historic Site in 1960.

Jenn:

So it really doesn't look so much different from that.

Jenn:

You can tell that they're working on some things and preserving some

Jenn:

things, but really when you go there.

Jenn:

It really is a snapshot of probably what it looked like

Jenn:

when it closed there in 1890.

Jenn:

And that

Scott:

really was a lot of these places we got to visit in the

Scott:

West was really neat because you really got to have that feel right.

Scott:

It didn't they haven't built up Fort Laramie that much and

Scott:

there's nothing really around it.

Scott:

And I can't really think of any like brand new structures that probably weren't.

Scott:

Where a former structure would have been you know, so there was a lot of the

Scott:

officers quarters Those ones were still built up and then they had some ruins

Scott:

for other kind of you had pointed out in the video some Administrative buildings.

Scott:

Yes that were near the officers quarter one building that looked like there

Scott:

was there had been a theater there Was it there a school like a school

Scott:

at one point and actually they talk I don't think it made it into the

Scott:

video, but they had talked a little bit about, um, the schooling there.

Scott:

It wasn't standardized.

Scott:

And so they were kind of like fighting for their own things.

Scott:

And that was something that, that led to standardization

Scott:

in the future within Wyoming.

Scott:

Um, so there, you really got, got a snapshot being there

Scott:

because it's just so spread out.

Scott:

It's like, you feel like you're in the middle of the plains.

Scott:

You can

Jenn:

tell that, uh, land is not an issue.

Jenn:

Not at all.

Jenn:

There's, so the guardhouse is there, the old guardhouse and the boys got

Jenn:

a kick out of that, our boys, because it was built to hold 40 prisoners,

Jenn:

but it often held a lot more.

Jenn:

So you can imagine people getting rowdy and things like that.

Jenn:

Very long, like makeshift.

Jenn:

beds just to like, uh, basically, uh, put people in, in one cell and

Jenn:

lock them all in there together.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

I

Scott:

did enjoy some of what they did to kind of preserve and kind of recreate,

Scott:

you know, like the post office and the general store, because you even said

Scott:

like the men there would be so bored sometimes that they were writing a

Scott:

letter every day or every other day.

Scott:

And the Pony Express coming through there, they could deliver mail on a,

Scott:

I assume on a fairly regular business.

Scott:

But we got to walk through some of the officers quarters and captains quarters.

Scott:

And they had a lot of artifacts that looked, if not from the period,

Scott:

you know, very well recreated.

Scott:

You know, dresses and, and.

Scott:

You know, kids toys and rocking horses and all the stuff.

Scott:

Well,

Jenn:

because there were, like, the Lieutenant Colonel and the post

Jenn:

surgeon brought their families.

Jenn:

So, there was, you know, women there with their children, so they did,

Jenn:

they showed what that would look like if you had your family there.

Jenn:

And I even think the post surgeon, he had lived there for something

Jenn:

like, uh, 10 years with his family.

Jenn:

Wow.

Jenn:

So they spent a long time at Fort Laramie.

Jenn:

What's neat about Fort Laramie too is the river kind of hugs it like a U.

Jenn:

So the fort is inside that so you can imagine there's lots of riverbank

Jenn:

for people to wash their clothing and get water for cooking or you know for

Jenn:

cleanliness and so that is what is so useful about the fort with all of these

Jenn:

homesteaders, immigrants, you know trail People coming through is all that

Jenn:

access to water along the the river.

Jenn:

So, uh, yeah It's it's it's very neat.

Jenn:

I definitely say visit.

Jenn:

It's free National Park Service and They have people again who are recreating

Jenn:

it if you watch something like dances with wolves Something like that.

Jenn:

Like it gives you the very much the feel of that era.

Jenn:

It,

Scott:

it absolutely does.

Scott:

And if you were kind of in that neck of the country where you're kind of venturing

Scott:

up towards Little Bighorn or in the Black Hills, South Dakota, Mount Rushmore area.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

You're coming from Denver.

Scott:

Coming from Denver.

Scott:

Heading up.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

It's, I mean, it's, and, and, you know, by the way, like all this,

Scott:

the speed limits on the freeways out there are like 80 miles an hour.

Scott:

80 miles an hour.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

That, that I've.

Scott:

I guess I should have expected that, but that was just a funny aside.

Scott:

It's like, it's literally 80 and people are doing 85,

Scott:

almost 90 everywhere out there.

Scott:

Cause you're like, the roads are huge.

Scott:

You're just smacking, you're driving through like these vast expanses.

Scott:

It was, it was very interesting.

Scott:

I hope that you've enjoyed our brief journey through the storied past of Fort

Scott:

Laramie, Wyoming and the indelible mark it left on the history of the American West.

Scott:

From the brave pioneers who ventured forth on the Oregon

Scott:

trail to the complex interactions between cultures at Fort Laramie.

Scott:

These narratives remind us that history is not a distant echo, but a living force

Scott:

that continues to shape our present.

Scott:

As we stand in the footsteps of those who came before, we're reminded of

Scott:

the challenges they faced, the bonds they forged, and the decisions they

Scott:

made that resonate across generations.

Scott:

Thank you for listening to the Talk With History podcast, and please reach out

Scott:

to us at our website, talkwithhistory.

Scott:

com, but more importantly, Remember, take a screenshot of your podcast

Scott:

player, send that picture to a friend that you think had played Oregon

Scott:

Trail at one point in time and died of dysentery or broke their leg, or made

Scott:

it to Fort Laramie, which I think you said was the halfway point in the game.

Scott:

We rely on you, our community, to grow and we appreciate

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