High conflict divorce can leave you feeling lost, overwhelmed, and questioning who you are. In this powerful conversation, divorce coach Karen McMahon shares how to reclaim your identity, regulate your emotions, and begin healing after divorce.

If you're facing a high conflict divorce, struggling with betrayal, or wondering if life will ever feel normal again, this episode is for you.

Lesa sits down with renowned divorce coach, speaker, and host of the Journey Beyond Divorce Podcast, Karen McMahon, for an honest conversation about what really happens during divorce—and how women can emerge stronger than ever.

Karen shares her deeply personal story of surviving a three-and-a-half-year high conflict divorce, losing herself in marriage, and rebuilding a life she now calls her greatest gift. Together, Lesa and Karen discuss emotional regulation, surrender, self-worth, people-pleasing, codependency, healing childhood wounds, and why the comeback begins long before the divorce is final.

If you've been feeling stuck, afraid, or overwhelmed, this episode will remind you that healing is possible and your best chapter may still be ahead.

Because divorce isn't the end of your story—it can be the beginning of your comeback.

Timestamps

(00:00) Welcome and introduction to Karen McMahon

(03:15) Karen's powerful high conflict divorce story

(08:40) Why women often lose their identity in marriage

(15:10) Emotional regulation during divorce

(22:30) Reclaiming your identity and rebuilding confidence

(30:05) The power of surrender and letting go of control

(38:20) Breaking free from victim mentality and embracing acceptance

(47:15) Healing betrayal, grief, and emotional wounds

(55:40) How to get unstuck and move forward after divorce

(1:03:30) Creating your comeback and envisioning your future self

Key Takeaways

• Many women lose their identity long before divorce begins—and healing starts by reconnecting with yourself.
• Emotional regulation allows you to make wiser decisions during divorce instead of reacting from fear.
• Acceptance isn't giving up; it's letting go of what you can't control while taking responsibility for what you can.
• Your divorce does not define your future—your response to it does.
• The comeback begins when you start becoming the woman you were created to be.

Guest Bio

Karen McMahon is a nationally recognized divorce coach, speaker, and host of the Journey Beyond Divorce Podcast. After surviving a lengthy high conflict divorce herself, she dedicated her career to helping women reclaim their confidence, rebuild their identity, and create a life they truly love after divorce. Karen has coached thousands of individuals through one of life's most difficult transitions with compassion, practical strategies, and hope.

Resource Links

Karen McMahon

Journey Beyond Divorce Podcast

Website: https://journeybeyonddivorce.com

Lesa Koski

Join the Divorce Comeback Community (Live every Wednesday at Noon CST)

Website: https://www.lesakoski.com

Schedule a Divorce Clarity Call

https://www.lesakoski.com

Podcast Sponsors

Soberlink – A trusted alcohol monitoring solution that helps reduce conflict and increase accountability during co-parenting and family law matters.

https://www.soberlink.com/divorce/family-law?utm_source=affiliatelink&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=lesa-koski-affiliatelink

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Tags/Keywords

high conflict divorce, divorce recovery, divorce coaching, healing after divorce, identity after divorce, emotional healing after divorce, divorce support, codependency recovery, people pleasing, emotional regulation, betrayal trauma, self-worth after divorce, women over 40, divorce podcast, Journey Beyond Divorce, Karen McMahon, Lesa Koski, Doing Divorce Different, divorce mindset, life after divorce, divorce healing, rebuilding after divorce, personal growth, women empowerment

Welcome, friends.

2

Today, I have the privilege of introducing

you to someone that I had on a really

3

long time ago, and I've wanted to have her

back on the podcast for quite some time.

4

It's Karen McMahon, and she's a divorce

coach, a speaker, and she's the host

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of the Journey Beyond Divorce podcast.

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She has helped thousands of women

and men navigate one of the hardest

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seasons of their lives with more

clarity, confidence, and hope.

8

It's very similar to what I do, but she's

working with high-conflict situations.

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And what I love the most about

Karen isn't her condit- her,

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like, credentials, it's her heart.

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Everything she teaches, it just

comes from her own experience.

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Karen actually lived through, and

you'll hear this in the episode, a long,

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high-conflict divorce that completely

changed the course of her life.

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And instead of allowing this to define

her, she chose to let it refine her,

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and today she helps women and men

stop feeling stuck, reclaim their

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identity, and regulate their emotions.

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It helps them begin creating a

life they truly love after divorce.

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So if you've ever felt like you've

lost yourself in your marriage, or

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if you're exhausted by conflict, or

if you're wondering whether life can

20

really get better after divorce, I

think this conversation is going to

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encourage you in a really powerful way.

22

Welcome Karen McMahon.

23

I am so excited.

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I feel so blessed to have you here.

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Listener, she's kinda

turning into a big deal.

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I mean, she's got a big podcast,

um, The Journey Beyond Divorce.

27

And, you know, you- Mm … before

we get into the, the meat of

28

this, I'm gonna get your story as

to what led you to do this work.

29

And so listeners, if you're wondering

why you're here, today we wanna help

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women be less afraid when they've got

a divorce looming or if they're in the

31

middle of one, so we're gonna talk about

how that, your identity shifts in divorce.

32

We're gonna talk about how you can

get unstuck, you know, that spinning

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that we do, and then of course the

comeback be- because both Karen and

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I believe that this is a journey and

that there is a better life after this.

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And so that's what we wanna help you,

borrow our hope if you don't have it.

36

But listeners, I'm gonna stop talking now.

37

I want you to hear Karen's story

as to what led her to do this

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work, and just welcome Karen.

39

Thank you so much for

taking the time to be here.

40

And thank you for inviting me.

41

Our last conversation was so

memorable, and I'm excited to

42

chat with you and the listeners.

43

I, um, my backstory is I married late, I

was in my 30s, and, uh, and pretty quickly

44

the relationship after the second child

really unraveled, and I did not know why.

45

It didn't make any sense to me.

46

I was a pretty clickety-click woman.

47

I was, I was more mature.

48

I wasn't in my early 20s.

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Like, how is this all going wrong?

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And, uh, and after a couple of years

in therapy, I did, and, uh, ver- with

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tremendous trepidation tell my spouse

that I was gonna file for divorce.

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And what proceeded after that was three

and a half years of a hellacious journey.

53

I was living in the attic.

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It was 100 plus degrees.

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My children were four and six when I

sat them down and took full ownership,

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"I am choosing to leave Daddy."

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Um, and, uh, th- over the course

of three and a half years the

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police came to the front door,

CPS was called on us three times.

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We needed an attorney for the children.

60

We needed a custody evaluation.

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I was in sales.

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I lost 90% of my business because

I was emotionally a train wreck.

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And, um, and so when people say like,

"How would you describe your divorce?"

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I wo- I would say two things.

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It was one of the most hellacious

experiences I went through, and it was

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the greatest gift I was ever given,

and that's why I do what I do today.

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I love that.

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I love that you're saying that.

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And I think the thing that's, uh, we're

so similar in what we do, and yet I often,

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because I still do divorce mediations,

I often work with people who aren't in

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high conflict Who want to work together.

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So I get to do that work,

and it's still hard.

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But you have been through

this high conflict, and you

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come with all this knowledge.

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You've been through something hard.

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You're on the other side,

and let's share that.

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Let's share that with the audience.

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And, and I can't wait to hear from you

because I just, I'm gonna do some learning

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too, and I've been through it myself.

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I've been through a different hard.

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I've been married 34 years, but I

went through that catching that stage

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one breast cancer, going through all

that treatment, all the scary and

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all the hard and all the, like…

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It's kind of the same as

divorce, right, Karen?

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It really is.

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And what's so…

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Yeah.

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What's so interesting is I

kinda stepped away from divorce.

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I was like, "I hate divorce.

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I don't wanna do divorce anymore."

91

And I thought, "Oh,

this is making me sick."

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And then I just, nothing ever

felt quite right, and I did some

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prayer, and I was like Okay.

94

My oncologist hates

cancer and she cured me.

95

So I stepped back into the arena to

do this work, and I'm so excited.

96

And you're one of my first

ones- Mm … as I'm getting back

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into this, which is really…

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And it's happening fast.

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You know?

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It's- Mm … it's awesome.

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I love it.

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I love this, this arena.

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But anyway, so we've both

been through hard things.

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Let's talk about when, like s- for

that gal who's driving down the

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road and maybe just found out her

husband's, you know, cheating on her- Mm

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or wants a divorce.

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Let's talk about-

Mm … like your identity.

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Uh, what, tell me about that

in your situation, and how

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you help women through that.

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Well, so I would say in general, my

experience is that especially as women, we

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lose i- our identity when we fall in love.

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And I've got a 29-year-old

daughter who's actually talking

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about having lost her identity.

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So as women, it's like we, we do

have a more of a tendency to give up.

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Give up our, um, girlfriends,

give up our hobbies.

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And then you add into it a high-conflict

divorce, where you're kind of scolded

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for wanting to see your sisters, or you

don't have to be with your family that

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much, or criticism about friends of yours.

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And so for me, I completely

lost my identity.

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When I went into therapy the

first time, which was right after

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my daughter's two-year birthday,

when I physically assaulted my

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ex-husband, I did the assaulting,

and then I looked in the mirror and

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I was like, "You are a hot mess.

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You need to go get some help."

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And, um, and when she saw me the second

time, like a year and a half later,

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she said, "Karen, you're a shell of

the woman I met a year and a half ago."

127

Mm.

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I was a shell the first time I met her.

129

So I think that, you know, for the

listener, it's really valuable to take

130

a step back and say, um, how have I been

committing to myself or abandoning myself?

131

How aligned is my life?

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I actually just yesterday spoke to

a young woman, two years married,

133

and she thought she had problem A,

but it turned out she was completely

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getting lost in her, in her marriage.

135

Mm.

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In her very young, lovely marriage.

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And so that's an important part.

138

I was very lost.

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And so the identity shift- I think if

we talk about the identity shift in

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divorce, we're missing, um, the root.

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Because the root is we lose our

identity in our marriage, even not

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just in high-conflict marriages,

but in marriages in general.

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Now, not everyone does, but I was not…

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I was a ver- a, a much sloppier

version of my today self, and

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so I very much lost myself.

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And then it was high conflict, and so

what happens in high conflict is, uh,

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I, I actually have a program called,

um, Reclaim Your Mind, Evac- Evict

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Your Spouse From Your Mental Space.

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Ooh, I love that.

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My husband and his beliefs and his

perspectives and his judgments and

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his values and his priorities were

what was running the operating system

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between my ears- Yeah … not mine.

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So that was a whole level

of loss of identity.

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Then you step into divorce, and if you

think about it, if he's in your head

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and he's on the other side of the table,

who the hell is negotiating for you?

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Right.

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You've got two, two, two voices, both

his, in your head against you, and so the

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identity shift is how do I go from being

scared, having a lack of self-esteem or

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confidence, having a fear of conflict,

right, conflict avoidance, or for so many

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of us who are beautiful caretakers, the

shadow side of that is I'm a codependent

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and people pleaser, and again, I

abandon myself over and over again.

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Why?

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Not because I'm abandoning

s- myself and my plans for my

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college kid who I wanna help.

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No, I'm abandoning because of a fear of,

um, retaliation or a fear of loss of love.

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Mm-hmm.

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And so, and so the identity shift

in early divorce is really to notice

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our tendencies and come back home.

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Yeah.

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Which sounds so much easier than it is.

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Right.

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But that's the point.

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And I love what you're saying, and

I can't help when you first brought

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this up, I thought, "Ugh, what about

the women who don't e- who aren't

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even aware that this is happening?"

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They're going and they're

negotiating, and they're not even

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aware that they've lost themselves.

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So I think you're saying the

first thing is to be aware.

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Yeah.

180

And I, Karen, I kind of feel

like it happens to a lot of us.

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And you know, I told you I've

been married a long time.

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I lost my identity.

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I, you know, it's, it's not uncommon.

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Right.

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And to become aware of it, so, so for that

woman- How do they become aware of what's

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their spouse is kind of controlling?

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You know, how do you get out of that

when you're in this high conflict?

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So it's emotional.

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It's like, how do you even…

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It- when I went through something

really hard, it was hard for me to

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use all my self-coaching tools because

I was just in the middle of a…

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I had to just move my body

and live with it a little bit.

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Completely.

194

How do you do that in the middle

of a high conflict divorce?

195

So there's a bunch of different things.

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I mean, there's so many

directions we can go in here.

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First of all, what you just referred

to, which is emotional regulation.

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If you are not emotionally

regulated, you are not accessing

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your executive functioning brain.

200

You are in your amygdala.

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And so that's where we go when we're

in fight, flight, freeze, fawn.

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So the first thing is that noticing.

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When I become aware, and some people

have a hard time becoming aware because

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their trauma started in their childhood.

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They've been abandoning s-

themselves their entire life.

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So I have people who are like,

"You're speaking Japanese."

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"I have no idea what you're saying to me."

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And so it's baby steps.

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It's really small steps of, um, am I,

am I, am I thinking in a way that's

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aligned with my priorities and values?

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You might say, "Wow, I don't know

what my priorities and values are."

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Really.

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That's where I would say, you know,

as a coach, I'd say have a therapist,

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because there's a lot of things

when I talk to my clients where I'm

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like, "That's not my wheelhouse.

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Please bring it to your therapist."

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I talk a lot about inner child-

Yeah … because so many of us

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bring our traumatized childhood

into our intimate relationships.

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And I can, I can touch on that, but a

therapist is gonna be able to go deep and

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connect the dots and help you understand

what's going on psychologically.

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So if you're listening and you're

thinking, "Gosh, I don't even know

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what my values, priorities, and beliefs

are," that's a beautiful opportunity.

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We could see it as a problem, or

we can see it as an opportunity.

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Yeah.

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It's such a beautiful opportunity to

say, "Wow, here I am at 35, 45, 55,

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65, and I'm gonna get to know myself.

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I'm gonna fall back in love with myself,

and I am going to commit to myself."

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And for those of you who are out

looking for love, if you haven't fully

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committed to yourself, if you abandon

yourself, you will absolutely find

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someone who's comfortable abandoning you.

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So this is really vitally

important work to do.

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Yeah, for your future,

for your future love.

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And I love how you talk

about this is an opportunity.

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Mm-hmm.

235

And that doesn't mean that it's not

gonna be painful, but you can have some

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peace- In knowing that you're growing

and knowing that you're going to be in

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a better place, you know, you're going

to have that future that you want.

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It just takes work, like, kinda

like every day, don't you think?

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Uh, you know, the truth

is life is freaking hard.

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You know?

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And whoever told us about, like,

the bowl of cherries and…

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Life is hard.

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And so when we do hard things…

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This is something I learned so long ago.

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When my life is going really

well and easy, I'm almost,

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like, in a resting place.

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Mm-hmm.

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I don't grow.

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Mm-hmm.

250

I enjoy my life.

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I go out, I play- Mm-hmm … I

have fun, I celebrate.

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When life is going hard, whether

you just lost your job or you're,

253

you know, you're, you've got a

child with a problem or you're

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facing divorce, that's when we grow.

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Yeah.

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And so, so growth is,

it, we're stretching.

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It hurts.

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No pain, no gain.

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Right.

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If you feel no pain, if you're just

kinda settling into whatever is,

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and we know people like that, it's

like, "I'm not gonna push myself.

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I'm not gonna stretch."

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Yeah.

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"I don't wanna get uncomfortable,"

you're gonna spend the rest of

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your life being uncomfortable.

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Right.

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But when you stretch and grow, when

you truly say, "I am going to use

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the pain of this divorce to become

the best version of myself, the best

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person, partner, parent-" Mm-hmm

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oh, my God.

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Like, that's me.

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Yeah.

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I would say, I look back and I think, I

love my relationship with my adult kids.

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I love the career I built for myself.

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I have tremendous compassion for

my ex-husband, who is as angry

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now as he was 20 years ago.

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And, and it's all good because-

Yeah … look what I get to do.

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I get to take my pain

and help people- Yeah

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around the world navigate this with

more grace and dignity and skill.

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I, I, I mean, I would do it

all over again- Yeah … to

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be able to keep doing this.

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Yeah.

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I love that.

284

I love that.

285

I have to ask you, okay, so in your

journey through this, was there any

286

part of you, 'cause I know in mine,

where you kind of had to let go?

287

Like, I always felt like I

could control everything.

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Was there any part of that that

helped you in the healing to let

289

go of what you couldn't control?

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Like, you couldn't control him-

Talk about that a little bit.

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I'm just curious.

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Yeah.

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1,000%.

294

For me, um, there weren't divorce

coaches and divorce support groups- Yeah

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that I knew about, and so I

went to a 12-step program.

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You did?

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And, and, and my dad was an alcoholic.

298

My ex had a different substance

of preference, and, um, and so

299

it seemed like a good place.

300

And what do they say?

301

Keep the focus on yourself, one

day at a time, how important is

302

it, um, and the serenity prayer.

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Yeah.

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And so surrender is a

vitally important part.

305

Uh-huh.

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And I think that people think

of surrender as the white flag.

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I'm giving up, and- Mm-hmm … um,

um, I'm stepping back.

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Surrender is I am doing everything

humanly possible within my effort,

309

whatever the case may be, and then I'm

taking my hands off of the steering

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wheel, and I am trusting in the outcome.

311

Yeah.

312

I have zero impact on

any outcome in my life.

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Yeah.

314

I have 100% responsibility

for the effort that I put in.

315

And to your point, um, one of the sayings

in 12-step which stayed with me through

316

my divorce and through my coaching career

is keep your side of the street clean.

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Yeah.

318

Get the heck off of

his side of the street.

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That's not your problem.

320

You have no agency there.

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If you did, you wouldn't be

listening to this podcast now.

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That ship has sailed.

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This is your opportunity to focus on you.

324

Yeah, yeah, but, but

he's hurting the kids.

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He's doing this thing.

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He's manipulating.

327

Doesn't matter.

328

Right.

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You have no control, and

you're not changing him.

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But what you do have control over is

how often am I drinking his Kool-Aid?

331

How often am I acting like the

puppet and allowing myself-

332

Yeah … to be manipulated?

333

How often am I looking like

the more unhinged individual

334

because I haven't learned how to

emotionally regulate so that I can

335

have a calm conversation- Mm-hmm

336

even if he is being unreasonable or

catastrophic or whatever the case may be?

337

And so surrender is An

absolute secret sauce.

338

And the same thing with the court system.

339

I mean, you do mediation.

340

It's like you can get

angry at the attorney.

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You could have an attorney who's a

human being- Yeah … and doesn't

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have great emotional intelligence

the day you spoke with them.

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Right.

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You could have a court system that's

backed up or that's just oblivious

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to the coercive control of your

children or a thousand other things.

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What do I have control over?

347

Mm-hmm.

348

When you stay in that place,

you build self-esteem, you build

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confidence, you build clarity, um,

and you build a sense of calm and

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serenity that, um, is just brilliant.

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Yeah, and I love it.

352

And in fact, as I'm sitting

here listening to you, you

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just kinda taught me something.

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Something kinda clicked in my head

because when I was going through my

355

hard, surrender was a life-changer,

and I, like, surrendered to God.

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I was like, "I don't have control."

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Like, I thought I had control

over my health for sure.

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I was so healthy.

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I was doing everything.

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You know what I mean?

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And it's like, what the heck?

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I don't.

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But then on the flip side of that,

there's a, there's a building of your

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self-este- esteem and there's a power

in there was some things I could do.

365

I did amazing through treatment because

I took really good care of myself.

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You know, I just…

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It, it's a letting go, and I

remember feeling afraid of letting

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go, everything would blow up.

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It's, it's still something every day

that I have to kinda think about.

370

Um, but then on the flip side of

that, you're surrendering that,

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and you're taking responsibility

for you, for your minds- Mm-hmm

372

you know what I mean?

373

You, you can't control the circumstances.

374

You can control you.

375

So you're also not being a victim.

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Does that make sense?

377

Well- That just clicked in my head when

you were talking … it's exactly it.

378

So I, I've had conversations with

colleagues who've said, you know,

379

"Calling it high-conflict isn't

fair because he's the problem."

380

Now, I work with a lot of men where

she's the problem, but that the-

381

Yeah … the high-conflict person is

the problem, and I tend to disagree.

382

Yes, they're absolutely the

problem, and we could wax on about

383

how big of a problem they are.

384

Yeah.

385

But the truth is we married them.

386

Yeah.

387

And healthy people don't

marry unhealthy people.

388

Mm.

389

And so again, if you come back to, and

I guarantee if I was speaking to each

390

of these listeners, I guarantee…

391

I was just talking to a fella

yesterday, wife, um, had an

392

affair And he was like, "I'm good.

393

I'm fine.

394

I'm an attorney.

395

I'll be fine."

396

And I'm like, "So is there any

betrayal in your family of origin?"

397

"Oh my God, yes, there is."

398

"Is there any betrayal

in her family of origin?"

399

"Oh my God, yes, there is."

400

And so we don't lick

this stuff off the grass.

401

We have wounds of our childhood.

402

We bring them into, not any relationship,

often our intimate relationships.

403

Yeah.

404

And then we're so triggered by

what happens and, and so why am

405

I acting like a six-year-old?

406

Because my inner child is triggered.

407

Yeah.

408

Right?

409

So, um, so when we can get to a place

where I'm looking at myself, I'm in full

410

acceptance, I think that's the other

word I would love to throw on the table.

411

Yeah.

412

If I accept that- Yeah … yes, I

stayed in this marriage for 35 years,

413

I'm not gonna beat the shit out of

myself with a bat because of it.

414

Yes, I married somebody who is

difficult in A, B, and C way.

415

Yes, I swallowed my

voice and I lost myself.

416

Yes, all of these things are true.

417

If I can't come to acceptance of

that, then I can never solve a problem

418

because I, I live in resistance.

419

I can't believe he behaved that way.

420

I can't believe I stayed that long.

421

Right.

422

I can't believe the attorney said that.

423

I can't believe the

court's taking so long.

424

Just believe it.

425

Well, and you- Just accept it … when

you, would you say with that acceptance

426

comes a little empathy for yourself?

427

I would say that if we were to

go through, when I'm a victim,

428

everything is being done to me.

429

As you said earlier, a step up

from there is getting angry, right?

430

Mm-hmm.

431

And that's good because now I've got a

kick to actually do something about it.

432

After that, the next thing you

said is taking responsibility.

433

So first I'm a victim, then I

get a little angry, then I go,

434

"Well, what is my part in this?"

435

Mm-hmm.

436

"And can I forgive myself?"

437

Yeah.

438

That's where, that's the beginning

of the compassion, right?

439

Yeah.

440

Can I forgive myself?

441

And then the next step up from

that is truly, um, uh, compassion

442

and concern, which might be for

me, might be for my kids, might

443

even be for my ex if it's healthy.

444

Right.

445

And then above that is

where we get to acceptance.

446

So we're going through- Ah … taking

responsibility, experiencing

447

forgiveness, having compassion before

we really land on it is what it is.

448

Somehow it's for me.

449

It doesn't look like it's for me.

450

Mm-hmm.

451

I'm looking around.

452

Nobody else thinks it's

for me, but I know…

453

And this is the hope.

454

I know that somehow this journey,

this hellacious journey, this

455

difficult journey, this isolating,

scary journey is going to make me the

456

person or bring me back to the person

I was created to be, the best of me.

457

And, and so that's where it's…

458

And when, when you, when we don't accept

li- listen, what happens is when we're

459

in resistance, we can't access all the

creative solutions available because

460

we're just in the, "I can't believe it."

461

Yeah.

462

It's only when it's

like, "It is what it is.

463

Somehow, God willing, I'm gonna

figure out how it's for me,"

464

all of a sudden, creativity.

465

Yeah.

466

It's almost like if you think

about an elevator, we're

467

heading up to the penthouse.

468

At the penthouse, I

have a 365-degree view.

469

I can see all the

possible creative choices.

470

When I'm a victim and I'm in the

basement or the sub-basement,

471

I'm looking through a straw.

472

I can't see anything.

473

Right.

474

I'm not doing myself any service.

475

I never will believe someone who says,

"I support people in, um, in truly

476

standing in their victim mentality."

477

I support people, and

you have been victimized.

478

Right.

479

A thousand percent.

480

It serves you not at all to

stand in a victim mentality.

481

Right.

482

Right.

483

So it's the acceptance of it which is the

end, and there's all those victim, angry,

484

forgiving myself, empathy, acceptance.

485

Did I get all of them?

486

Yes.

487

Beautiful.

488

Okay, good.

489

Uh, 'cause I was listening.

490

That was really good.

491

Um, okay.

492

So we, we get to that acceptance

piece, and then we're able…

493

Does that make us a little

less emotional maybe?

494

I think what happens by the

time you've done that much work

495

is, look, we're human beings.

496

Right.

497

It's like, uh, uh, even when I was

doing really well, I co-parented for,

498

like, 10 years post-divorce, which I

would love to chat about a little bit.

499

There were plenty of times where I'm

like, "Are you effing kidding me?"

500

But it didn't last.

501

What would happen is when I first started

my journey into my divorce, I could be

502

angry for a week, but as I developed, I

could be angry for a day, and then I could

503

be angry for a couple hours, and then

I could have a full-out reaction and 10

504

minutes later be regulated and moving on.

505

Mm-hmm.

506

That's when we know we're progressing.

507

Of course, we're gonna feel those things.

508

Right.

509

He doesn't drop off the kids.

510

He doesn't pay the child support.

511

Of course you're gonna

have an emotional reaction.

512

Notice how long you stay in that reaction.

513

The, the shorter the reaction, the quicker

the pivot to, "Okay, it is what it is,"

514

acceptance, "What can I do about it?"

515

creative solution.

516

The quicker you get there, the

further along your journey you are.

517

And that reminds me of

something I heard before.

518

Okay.

519

You've probably heard this too, like,

about how ducks will fight, eh, and they

520

get it out, and pfft, they're done, and

they go float away and they're fine.

521

And so I love that because you're

not saying don't feel angry.

522

This, and this is the second

thing I wanna, wanted to talk

523

about, is getting unstuck.

524

How do you get unstuck from feeling…

525

That's when you know you're

progressing, when you can feel the

526

anger- Right … and move on, and

it's just kind of practice, isn't it?

527

Like, you just have to- Absolutely

… let yourself feel it, right?

528

I mean, is that what

you do, feel the anger?

529

What do you do when you have that

anger to get through it quicker?

530

So, yeah, and whether it's anger or

depression or, I mean, uncertainty, right?

531

Uncertainty, just like human

beings don't like uncertainty.

532

Talk about a three-and-a-half-year

divorce, three and a half

533

years of utter uncertainty.

534

Mm.

535

It's a lot of uncertainty.

536

It's a lot.

537

It's going, it's going to trigger us.

538

Yes.

539

And, yes, as you, as you emotionally

regulate, as you begin to just

540

pay attention to yourself, none of

this work can happen if I'm only

541

looking across the aisle at him.

542

Yeah.

543

I'm gonna miss every golden

opportunity to heal myself.

544

And so, so yeah, as you do that, you

begin to heal, and getting unstuck,

545

you know, divorce is a huge loss.

546

I was just speaking to someone

who had a breakup, and I'm like,

547

"There's nothing wrong with you.

548

You're going from denial to depression to

anger to bargaining to acceptance maybe,

549

and then you're, you're like a pinball.

550

You're all over the…"

551

This makes sense, and that's

with a, a relationship breakup.

552

With a marriage where there are children

and finances and future, and the grief

553

is real, and it needs to be honored.

554

And you need to process.

555

That may be journaling.

556

It's never good to process alone.

557

We this is a bad neighborhood.

558

Between your ears is one of the

worst neighborhoods to get stuck in.

559

You need your friend, your

therapist, your coach, your…

560

You need people who are- Um, a sounding

board who are mirroring back to you.

561

I so often I'll say to a client

just what they said to me, and

562

they'll be like, "That's bullshit.

563

I don't know where I got that from.

564

That's not…"

565

Because now it's out in the air.

566

It's getting some airing.

567

Mm-hmm.

568

And now it's like, okay,

so what's more true?

569

So we have the grieving process.

570

We have the need to process

all of those emotions.

571

Mm-hmm.

572

And if you, if you find that you're

staying stuck in, um, denial, depression,

573

anger, let's take those three.

574

Mm-hmm.

575

And when I mean stuck, it's like if you've

been in a 30-year marriage, please don't

576

consider yourself stuck three weeks later.

577

That is not stuck.

578

Yeah.

579

Um, but, but, you know, if you're not

touching acceptance at all, that's your K.

580

It's like if you're, um, weeks, months

into this, and, and I've met people like

581

that, and they're tormented because- Yeah

582

they're, they refuse,

they refuse acceptance.

583

And what I mirror back to them is you

have choice, and there's something

584

about not accepting this and staying in

this kind of victim mentality or this

585

grief mentality that's serving you.

586

And I'm not judging that, but I would

really encourage you to look into what

587

that is because you're saying you don't

wanna get out, but you are white-knuckling

588

that and holding onto that- Yeah

589

for dear life.

590

And so, and so again, that could end

up being a therapeutic conversation.

591

Right.

592

Something where I've

done a lot of that too.

593

Yeah, and I, I see that a lot in

clients, especially ones that are

594

coming back, which are maybe a little

more high conflict, and they're

595

parenting together, and it's been five

years, and one of them is still, like,

596

pouncing on the other about an affair.

597

Or it's just like it's

still right there fresh.

598

Ugh.

599

That breaks my heart.

600

Breaks my heart.

601

And, um- And I, I do think betrayal, if

I could just pop in there- Yeah … y-

602

it's, it's, it, it is a double whammy.

603

I mean, I think I, I was betrayed,

not, not by my ex-husband, but in

604

my life I've experienced betrayal,

and it's such a gut punch.

605

Yeah.

606

And divorce is such a

overwhelming, um, perfect storm.

607

And when you put those two together,

I just wanna say if, if that is you,

608

you're tuning in and that is you, please

be incredibly kind and gentle with

609

yourself because that, that is a lot

to process- Yeah … um, all at once.

610

And, uh, it may take a little bit

more time, and don't let anyone rush

611

you because divorce can only move as

quickly as the slowest moving person.

612

Yeah.

613

So if you need some time

and space, you take it.

614

Yep.

615

And you know what?

616

You probably do.

617

Yeah.

618

Yeah, I mean, sometimes that's,

sometimes we just need that.

619

Sometimes we just can't be that rushing

moment, so I love that you said that.

620

Um, okay, so let's- Look at this

like, let's look at the hopeful.

621

Now how do we help people,

like, with their comeback?

622

Like, you know, like moving forward.

623

So they've kind of gotten through this.

624

Like you, look where you are.

625

You've come back-

Yeah … you're helping people.

626

You know, I don't, I don't know

that I believe That the comeback

627

starts after the divorce.

628

I b- my experience has been that when

someone starts doing the hard work

629

of keeping the focus on themselves,

rebuilding their, their confidence,

630

their sense of self, identity, that

what, what emerges with the right

631

support is a future self vision.

632

Imagine, imagine each of you that

you're gonna wake up one day, and you're

633

still gonna have a lot of problems.

634

You might be single parenting,

but the household is yours, your

635

rules, you're in full agency.

636

You feel a sense of confidence.

637

You feel a little bit firmer in the

way that you're raising your children.

638

You are intentional in the

decisions that you make.

639

You watch the invitations coming in

for arguments from your spouse, and

640

you choose to decline a lot of them.

641

You hear him say you're XYZ,

and my favorite thing was,

642

"Okay, let's go with that.

643

Bye."

644

Click.

645

And all of a sudden, they have y-

the, the strings have been clipped

646

from the puppet that you were,

and you f- are in full agency.

647

Now, money might still be tight.

648

You may now have some concerns about

the kids and their emotional wellbeing,

649

but imagine being in that place.

650

And so for each of you,

I would say journal.

651

Just write a story about if I could wake

up tomorrow being the version of myself I

652

wanna be, this is what it would look like.

653

This is how I would interact with

the world, with my job, with the

654

kids, with my ex, with finances.

655

Like, all the things that

we really struggle with.

656

And so you don't have to wait until

you're off the battlefield of divorce.

657

All you need to do is spend a little time

every single day looking in the mirror

658

and saying, "What part of this is me and

mine, and what do I wanna do about it?"

659

Oh, I love that.

660

I love that.

661

And I'm looking at the time, and it's,

like, time to end, and I think that was

662

the perfect place, leaving the listeners

with that work, with that future self,

663

with imagining that, with actually

going there and feeling it, right?

664

And being able to escape to that beautiful

future that's there, and to journal it.

665

I mean, that, that's

just icing on the cake.

666

That's just…

667

I mean, I love, I love ending there.

668

So Karen, I just, from the bottom of

my heart, I am so thankful- So thankful

669

for you and the work that you're doing,

and so thankful that you came on and

670

shared all of this juicy- … good

information, um, with my listeners.

671

And your information will be in the show

notes, and I really, I, I would totally

672

send people your way to your podcast.

673

You're just a wonderful human being,

and very, very helpful as well.

674

So you're all those things.

675

Very knowledgeable, and,

and just your heart.

676

I love it.

677

So thank you for being here.

678

Thank you so much for having me.

679

It's always a pleasure chatting with you.

680

I love it.

681

You take good care.

682

Bye-bye.