Jo is thwarted by internet gremlins this week, so Andy and Emily press on without her. The Paramount-Warner merger has just cleared another significant regulatory hurdle — the California Attorney General's objections melted away after some well-timed brinkmanship — and Emily makes the case that from a kids media perspective specifically, a third major studio entity with the combined IP weight of Warner and Paramount is a genuinely good thing for the landscape. The question of whether the merged studio pulls its content from Netflix the way Disney did is examined, and Emily's read is that it won't be as extreme — but there are strategic decisions to be made around SpongeBob and other core franchises that will be worth watching closely.

The second half of the episode is a sharp conversation about digital-first animation and what it actually takes to make the model work. Sheriff Labrador's Baby Bus app background, Danny Go's live show operation, Ms. Rachel's multi-revenue approach — Emily's argument is that the YouTube-to-streaming pipeline is real but narrowing, and that the creators coming through now need to be running multi-line businesses from the start rather than betting the farm on YouTube revenue alone. It's a more structurally difficult proposition than the bubble moment that produced the current wave of creator IP, and the volume of new entrants who can pull it off is likely to be smaller going forward.

Well, hello and welcome to another episode of the Kids Media Club podcast.

I am Andy Williams.

And I'm Emily Horgan.

Joe has been unfortunately thwarted by the Internet gods and is unable to join this recording, which makes us sad.

But we still have stuff to talk about, so we decided to go ahead.

Yeah, we've always soldier on.

Yes.

The show must go on, Joe.

Sorry.

Exactly.

So what were we planning to discuss?

There's a lot in the news at the moment.

It is.

It was a big weekend in the news with the Paramount Warner merger hitting a.

Managing to jump through a few more hoops in terms of regulatory approval.

There have been all this news in the US about the California Attorney General Rob Bontag putting up all these blockers, looking for meaningful, you know, restrictions, compensations, all that kind of stuff.

And that all just seemed to melt away.

This is melted.

Well, there was a bit of brinkmanship as well, wasn't there?

So you had.

There was whatmanship?

A brinkmanship.

Brinkmanship.

What does that mean, Andy?

That's.

That's where kind of two people are kind of standing or two companies or two entities are standing off against each other.

And one will say, well, if we can't get what we want, we're gonna take all of our toys and move out of LA and relocate the Paramount and Warner Brothers in Texas or somewhere else.

And you'll lose all of that production money if we don't have some kind of movement.

And some reasonableness is kind of, I think, was the argument from the Paramount side.

So that was the brinkmanship on their side.

That's a new one for me.

I'm going to try and use that in a newsletter.

Okay, great.

I hope I've got it right.

I'm going to have to kind of.

Oh, no, I'm Googling it.

You have.

It's fine.

Great.

Yes.

So there was a bit of brinkmanship there, and I don't know whether that had an impact on the.

On the final decision.

My understanding of it as well is that a sticking point was what was going to happen to cnn.

Yes.

But I think that's all been pushed through.

So it's a huge coup.

It's moving the process forward.

I'd love to have been in the room where it happened, but we'll never know how that sausage was made.

So it does feel like it's a big coup for the merger moving forward, and it feels like that's going to happen.

It is.

It looks like it's split the.

It split kind of the film community, the TV community, a bit Some producers and directors feel like it will be good for the business to have the Paramount Warner Brothers merger and everything that brings with it.

I know that they've committed to doing three movie releases a year.

Sorry, 3.

30.

That was that.

Zero is kind of critical in that.

Yeah, 30 movie releases a year which for the cinema chains will be very gratefully received if that happens.

Yeah, listen, it's just, it's, it's a tough, it's a, it's a tough moment in the industry.

Right.

I ultimately think it's for.

I've been, I'm on the record as saying from a kids media perspective specifically, I think a Paramount Warner merger is a good thing because it means when we think of the major US studios, we would have Disney who are structurally invested in kids and family content and viewing and franchise and all the rest.

We'd have Netflix who kind of obviously have a big, a big kids catalog which I write about a lot.

And then we'd have this Warner Paramount entity which would have the potential to be quite a meaningful player in the kids, the kids space.

The kids and family space because there's so many legacy IP and TV series and franchises that, that sit amongst Warner and Paramount.

So you know, I know from my Netflix data we obviously talked about last week, you know those live action sitcoms, the Thundermans.

Yeah, Henry Danger, Icarly all still do really well on Netflix.

So there's definitely an appetite for them.

Obviously the infrastructure of Warner empowerment and traditional TV is the infrastructure that shows like Paw Patrol came up on Peppa Pig came up on those big preschool franchises and then you've got this legacy animation catalog.

And so we know things like spongebob is still huge.

So spongebob had a billion minutes viewed in the elsin a couple of weeks ago for spongebob.

I think it was like world spongebob Day.

It was like a totally like you know, created around the sponge.

It really worked.

And like shows like the long term value of this content we also had in our later on Netflix data we can see Teen Titans go from Guardian Network, hit a US window and jump significantly really showing that there is appetite for these well made shows in the golden age of TV to continue with audiences.

You know there's kids, kids are finding them for sure.

But there's got to be also some comfort TV watching from Gen Z for sure as well.

I would think so Paramount, Warner or whatever, whatever we're call it, whatever we're calling it these days.

Sky, you know, got to go there, but it does, it does have the potential to hold quite, it will hold quite a lot of those assets.

So I think in that sense having a third big studio there.

Yep.

In this space then puts the pressure on Netflix to compete a bit more.

Whereas if it had just been, if Netflix have a Warner and it was Paramount trying to, you know, much smaller Paramount trying to compete, then it wouldn't have put the pressure on to have these three major players.

When it's us corporates, do you think.

There's any potential that, that Paramount Warner might want to do what Disney did when, when they got into streaming, which was take all of their content from Netflix and say, okay, it's ours now.

The exclusivity, pain.

Oh my gosh, those are kissing Disney.

I don't, it's hard to say.

Right.

I don't, honestly, I don't see it being like, I don't see it being as extreme as what Disney did.

Right.

And there's reasons why they wouldn't and there's reasons why Disney did do that because Disney is Disney and it's a well known, it's.

It's a well known consumer facing brand.

I don't see that, I don't see that being as extreme for Paramount Warner, but I definitely think there's strategy there to play with.

They like spongebob is one of the biggest Paramount plus shows on US streaming.

Right.

It remains like, you know, it's not obviously doing the big well unless it's like World spongebob there, whatever that was.

It's not doing the, it's not doing the highest highs of obviously some of the big feature marquee programming.

But in terms of like a regular drumbeat of engagement, it's really big.

That's only on Paramount in the us it's not on Netflix.

So I think there's a few strategic decisions to be made around how they distribute their core franchises and their core assets because something like Henry Danger of the tournaments aren't a franchise.

Right.

Like these are shows that were made 10 plus 15 plus years ago, but they still kind of cut through.

So yeah, I, I'd say there'd be a bit more of a case by case basis, but you know, Yeah, I can see that.

And, and also the, I mean as we talk about a lot on the podcast, discoverability ends up being quite a challenge.

And, and what it looks like Netflix does absolutely provide for a lot of these legacy IPs is a lot of, there's a lot of eyeballs.

They provide eyeballs.

Do they provide Discoverability?

And are those the Same thing.

I'm not sure they are, you know, not to go for another massive ramp, but like, Netflix is the biggest premium shop window in the world.

So if something's in the window, people are walking.

Like, there's many, many people there to walk by, if you know what I mean?

That's not that difficult.

That's not.

That's not.

That's not necessarily a strategy.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, yeah, totally have lots of people put stuff that they like in front of them, watch them pick it.

Yeah.

And maybe discoverability is the wrong word in this.

Sorry.

But I think you're right.

Maybe what they provide is attention.

Yes, yes.

An opportunity to see maybe.

And I think discovery, discoverability and premium streaming needs a massive makeover.

I think that's a massive opportunity for some to solve.

And because the bottom line of it all, it's like, well, if you're looking to cultivate an audience, why do you.

If you're part of.

Why do you need.

Why do you need Netflix?

You could just go and do that and get, get it happening on YouTube, do you know what I mean?

So, yeah, YouTube's the biggest, not the biggest premium shop window.

It's like the biggest shop window.

Yeah.

So.

And it's also a lot more programmable on the IP owner side, whereas premium streaming, that's one of the major weaknesses of it, is that it's a platform that gets populated and not programmed on an individual IP basis.

So.

So much so.

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.

I mean, there's.

There's rubbish parts of it.

Obviously there's going to be massive, you know, mass more.

More redundancies.

You know, it's.

It's a decade of redundancies in this industry, like.

Yeah, yeah.

And I mean, I guess the only thing I'm unsure about is, is how much of.

Because it feels like for.

With Warren's Paramount, they've been.

They're, as you said, there have been a lot of redundancies kind of all the way down as.

As these, These big companies trying to adjust to different kind of market conditions, really.

And yeah, you kind of imagine that that's still got some, some.

It's still got to play out a bit more in terms.

There is.

Yeah, there definitely will be as it goes through, which absolutely sucks for all of us and for the people affected, obviously, specifically.

And, you know, there's.

And there's also going to be a bit of.

There needs to be a bit of contrition or like a bit of bloodletting and that around you know, there's kind of.

There's a few dual executives, you know, some of those bigger executives that are sitting in that role at HBO Max and then sitting in that role.

Paramount.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, it's, it's going to be painful.

As I said, I remain strongly of the view that for kids media, it's a good thing.

And.

Yeah, and it's, it's, it's.

It's happening.

You know, this is another significant step in that progress.

Yeah.

Do you, what's your.

Do you get the impression that.

What, what are your.

What's your impression of what.

How Netflix feel about it at this point in time?

Or is it for them, kind of old news and they've kind of moved on?

I mean, I think they need to be looking at that question as to whether, you know, some of their library, you know, that there's risk and happening to their, you know, those pipelines of library that they've been leveraging.

Yeah.

You know, I think Netflix have built a excellent pipeline for marquee streaming programming.

But that question around building those softer genres, I don't know, things like, things like kids.

Right.

Things like kids content.

You know, when we look at the top shows of Netflix, there's two main shows that are.

Were made there, which are Gabby's Dollhouse, which is made by DreamWorks, I talk about a lot, and the Creature Cases, which is a Sony Kids one.

So it's, you know, they have to be looking at those pipelines and asking if they're gonna, you know, the taps are gonna flow the whole time, and what if they're not flowing?

What they have to.

To replace that content because, you know, you can't just conjure up comfort tv.

Right.

Like, that's legacy.

You know what I mean?

You have to buy it from somewhere if you're new.

So, yeah, that's kind of an interesting thing for them to be considering.

But they are kind of still getting some of that content from YouTube though, aren't they?

Yeah, definitely.

And, like, that's one of the hottest, I think, stories on Netflix and on streaming, honestly, in the last year has been like, the strength of creators that we've seen on streaming platforms.

We have 100% seen the strength of creators on Netflix for kids.

Dani go Jordan and Salish Madder have come in and, like, all of those have done really, really, really well.

You know, we've got Ms. Rachel and Danny Go are both kind of rounding around to kind of like some, some big moments.

So Danny Go was subject to some really sad personal circumstances that I didn't know I was there kind of, we were kind of there in our Netflix data and typing it all up and, and then the news hit that he, he went to a very difficult personal time where he, he lost his son after, after an illness which was super sad.

And he's got of been on dark for a few months.

Yeah.

But he's back.

So he's released new music video.

There's a new season out.

It's doing well, which I think is great because I've just kind of, I kind of root for Danny Go.

Like obviously the difficult circumstances he's been through.

It's such a, it is such a lovely show.

It's.

And like I have such a guilty pleasure for the music in it.

The tunes are bangers.

So that's, that's, that's what, that's one creator that's doing well.

Ms. Rachel is coming into a big week.

She's got her very first album launching which you know, on Spotify, you know, launching as a music, as a music product which I'm sure would be massive.

And there are she's new episodes dropping on Netflix.

There definitely seems to be like quite a concerted PR campaign around her at the moment.

You know, she's been on been in Billboard.

There was a big write up in Billboard.

She's been on, on Subway takes.

And so that's building into another big week for her and I'm sure that season will do really, really well.

You know.

And then Mark Rober has continues to roll out Sailors and Jordan Madder are also strong.

But the other thing I will say is that it's not just all creators and creators is a new flashy story, but digital first.

YouTube originated animation is still very dynamic on Netflix and on premium streaming generally.

So obviously Cocomelon was the OG of this and Cocomelon is still big but you know, not the size it was which was utterly monstrous beyond all belief.

But there's lots, there's a number of other digital first animations that are coming up and coming through.

So one of them I spoke about I think last week was Sheriff Labrador which is out of China.

There is Jose Totoy which is out of Latam.

There's other IP like El Reyno and Fentile and Plimply the Kindness Hero.

And there's also then Choo Choo TV which just this week news dropped that they were landing on Netflix.

So you know, digital first Animation.

I feel like that was like one of the big stories of, you know, three or four years ago and everyone's focused on creators now, but like, there's still tons going on with digital first animation and.

Yeah, and what.

And what animation is really hitting on YouTube?

What's kind of driving that?

So with the Coco Melon, it felt like that whole period was very much driven by people searching for nursery rhymes and.

And the pandemic.

Yeah, there was that dynamic.

And it's interesting.

It feels like it's that intention, that searchability factor where somebody is almost searching for.

That.

It has more of.

Almost a functional aspect to it.

They want to hear them nursery rhymes or music or it's a.

Or it's that parasocial thing which is Ms. Rachel and.

And Danny go.

It's.

It's that relationship.

It's either.

It feels like I.

It feels like he's either a searching for something or it's a.

It's almost more of a social kind of relationship with the creator.

How.

Where does the new animation sit within that?

Yeah.

So share of Labrador is a narrative series.

It's not.

It's on nursery rhyme ip.

So, you know, and I think, I do think there was kind of.

There was obviously like the nursery rhyme wave of YouTube.

And I think after that there was a secondary wave that was coming through with people like Gecko's Garage, Christian Hughes, which we spoke with on the podcast a few years ago.

You know, some of the content, the super simple songs do.

Right.

Like there's.

There was a kind of secondary wave of narrative animation that was coming through the YouTube, the YouTube Avenue.

Now my observation is there that seemed to stall or for a bit.

Whereas I think, you know, something like Sheriff.

Sheriff Labrador.

We can see it did.

It's done really, really well on Netflix.

So it's not just nursery or mip.

I would say there is opportunities for other digital first animations to make it through.

And how.

How did something like Sheriff Labrador, how did it build that audience?

Yes, it's really interesting.

We've seen this before.

I think we're seeing this again as well.

It built.

It built on in Latam first and we could see it pop in latam markets and then I guess the, the window came on for English language markets and it just went like it's up like 784% right.

Like it's, it, it's big.

So you know, it's just that kind of, you know, whether it's the visuals of the, whether it's the visuals of the, of the show, like it's a dog.

It's, it's, it's, it's.

Yeah, it's a dog dressed as a sheriff.

I mean like, like kids love that, right?

So.

And it just, it just managed to go through it all.

It is also very big on YouTube so I guess there was familiarity amongst the audience with it.

So.

Yeah, like that's the thing I would say is that digital first animation is still, you know, is still very dynamic and there's a lot of momentum on it in premium streaming.

And then obviously on the flip side you've got like Disney plus are picking up things like Gracie's Corner, which isn't, which is another YouTube show.

They built Ozzy Fox at Animage.

They have.

There's another really sweet show.

I think I've sent it to you before.

Little Margot stories.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Super soft and like very, very pretty and beautiful and gentle and cozy.

So you know, it's not just nursery rhyme ip, although nursery rhyme IP remain like firm favorites is what I. Yeah.

Interesting.

And where do you think that in terms of when you animated IP is, Do you think that digital first animation is trend is going to continue to grow?

Because the monetization is kind of the challenge, isn't it?

I hope so.

I mean the thing with Sheriff Labrador is that comes from a background of digital apps.

Right.

And, and so there's a different.

It's not just.

I didn't realize that.

So what's the kind of, so where, where does its kind of background start with apps then?

Yeah, it's, it comes from a company based out of China who are specialists in digital apps.

Baby Bus.

So they have loads of like, you know, different learning apps and stuff like that.

So the thing is it's got a model that's not just YouTube and I think that's the key thing that everyone, that it needs to be happening these days.

It's, it's difficult to come up on the model of YouTube is difficult.

It, it's a challenge if you're only betting on YouTube.

It's, it's a, it's not, it's.

It's risky but it's just, it's just hard because getting that sort of bet, the farm level of revenue just takes so long.

So they're always, you know, the, the IP that I think have an opportunity to come through are ones that aren't just betting on YouTube, they're betting on digital apps or you know, we see this with a load of the creators in Australia, right?

The YouTube creators, they're on the same as Danny Go.

They're, they're doing live shows, right?

Like, and their live shows are huge.

Their live shows are like, like the Beatles for preschoolers, right?

Like so.

Yeah, yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

Like it's, you know, so there's a different, there's, there's more than one model that's bringing in the revenue.

Interesting.

Which I think is one of the ways that we're, one of the things you're going to have to see.

Well, you're going to see more and more with, with YouTube originated kids IP and that there's, there's more than just, it's more than just two people tinkering in the bedroom at YouTube.

There's, there's other, there's other opportunities there.

And like, you know, the thing is like a creator delivering on a live show is no small thing, right?

Like that is testament to their talent and their, you know, their business nice.

And their resilience.

And you know, it's a physical, it's a really big physical commitment, you know, with say for example, if you have a family, if you have a young family like and you're touring around, right, like that's it.

It's not, not just, it's, it's, you know, it's a, it's a much bigger commitment.

Commitment than that.

So that's really interesting because I didn't.

And that draws a line between Danny go and Ms. Rachel on the one hand and the digital first animations that I didn't, I didn't immediately grasp which is that for both of them in some ways it's the, it's the overall brand that can then exist on different platforms whether it's apps, streaming, YouTube or Live.

And it exists in those kind of concurrently and that each of those kind of amplifies the brand in other areas.

Bits of pieces of pie of revenue though as well.

Not just amplification and reach.

It's revenue revenue revenue revenue lines.

So yeah, and like it takes like that's, that's creator business, right?

Like it's, it is thinking, it's not thinking like just I'm producing content.

It's really thinking about how it's going to feed all those other buckets.

Yeah, yeah.

And you know,.

And with somebody like Danny Go it kind of almost becomes, you know, it's like a one person media empire.

Yeah.

Or a few people because he's got a team including his wife.

So.

And a lot of the guys like a lot of those like physical creators have a team.

Ms. Rachel is there with her, her husband.

She is very, and she's very unique in lots of ways particularly because she is very, she is very content led and create and individual led let's say so.

But yeah, there's other stuff that's, that's, that's different about her.

But yeah, I just think it's you know, going back to the original question, like I will say Netflix can.

This is another pipeline that they can rinse for sure.

Yeah.

But I think it's a pipeline that will naturally thin because it's no longer this bubble moment of YouTube where there's loads of different creators coming up, people trying it from people coming from different disciplines trying it.

There being a reason to continue with it because the revenue in of itself on that platform is good enough.

People who can facilitate these sort of multi line of business sort of operations.

That's just a much more difficult proposition.

Yeah.

The volume of the very category.

Yeah.

And the volume, you're right, it's kind of the.

Before YouTube provided more of a, of an avenue to monetize slowly.

Yes.

And for, for, for in some ways there to be maybe a small revenue stream.

But that then can get you to the point where you're big enough to you know, do live shows or exist on different platforms, have a streaming deal.

But, but it doesn't, it doesn't provide that ramp, that monetization ramp.

It doesn't, it provides the awareness which is why you can go and do live or you can go and do do products, do like digital downloads, do things like cameo videos.

Right.

Like there's it, it gives you an audience but in kids it doesn't give you, it doesn't give you meaningful revenue.

So yeah, I think the folks coming through like it's just a much more difficult bet and there's far fewer folks who can, you know, who will have the sort of various buckets full enough to go okay, no, actually this could work because you know we're a musical theater duo who like have been on the, you know, we've done toys a million times and we know like people who are in the theaters and we know we can do that.

And then we can produce a content.

Right.

Like those types of unicorns are going to be fewer, I think, unless some other YouTube opportunity opens up for YouTube around kids content that allows producers just producing being enough to bring in at least enough revenue to make the ROI worth it.

Yeah, I can see that.

Cool.

Alrighty.

Great.

Shall I do a quick sign off?

Do the sign off, Andy.

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Hope you guys enjoyed listening.

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