Amelia Earhart is back in the news eighty years after her disappearance. The famous aviator went missing over the Pacific Ocean in July of 1937 along with her navigator Fred Noonan and it’s been one of the Twentieth Century’s great mysteries ever since.

Just for a reference, this is Tom Noonan as “The Ripper” in Last Action Hero, who I kept comparing to Earhart’s navigator, Fred Noonan in the discussion

The reason she’s been the hot topic of conservation is because of a History Channel documentary called Amelia Earhart: The Lost Evidence . It featured former FBI agent Shawn Henry and his search for new evidence of what happened to Amelia and Fred. The theory that the special espouses is that they crash-landed in the Marshall Islands and were taken captive by the Japanese and later executed, effectively making Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan the first American casualties of the Second World War.

One of the pieces of new evidence is a photograph from a dock in the Marshall Islands found by researcher Les Kinney. He was digging in the National Archives and discovered it from the files of the Office of Naval Intelligence. The photo purportedly shows a skinny Caucasian woman sitting on the dock and a Caucasian man, a Japanese ship with what looks a plane being towed behind it as well.

The photograph in question

Okay, so that photo was the hot news right before the special aired and it was linked and featured everywhere there’s Internet. And then the special aired to huge ratings (for cable, it’s not like “Who Shot J.R.?” or anything , those kinds of ratings only exist for the Academy Awards and the Super Bowl now.)

So, just two days later, the story changes when a Japanese blogger who isn’t in love with the idea that the Empire decided to murder an innocent woman as a spy did some digging of his own. He discovered the photo somewhere else , in the Japanese National Diet Library Digital Collection, but according to the collection it was published in a book, a travelogue about the Marshall Islands (which were under Japan’s boot in the 1930s), and that book was published in 1935. Two years before Earhart’s disappearance.

So, the story changed. Blogs and news sites, excited about being able to follow up their original story from the week before, now had an update and it was devastating to the original evidence. The blogger, said that it only took him thirty minutes of Googling to discover the picture in the Japanese archive. So, is this a story of The History Channel not doing their diligence? It makes them and the researchers look stupid, almost like what happened with The Roswell Slides , where those photos were debunked in just a few hours. Well, everyone on the Internet jumped on the story and it seemed like case closed to a lot of people, but that wasn’t good enough for us! There was lots of compelling evidence in that special about Amelia Earhart being captured by the Japanese and eventually dying on the island of Saipan as a prisoner.

Dick Spink about to jump in the drink!

Allison from Milwaukee Ghosts has a curiosity that can never be quelled. She contacted one of the researchers featured in Amelia Earhart: The Lost Evidence , Dick Spink ( featured in National Geographic right here ), and he gave us his thoughts on why he believes the photo is still genuine, that the blogger has it all wrong, why there’s so much more evidence (including first hand accounts from several Marshall Islanders who claim to have seen Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan on the island!) Dick provides a compelling defense (including a statement from the government of the Marshall Islands that the dock in question wasn’t built until 1936 , so that date on the travelogue is impossible.)

Here’s Allison’s full interview with Dick Spink if you want to watch the whole thing!

So, next question. Was that date planted or just a mistake? And if someone was trying to create a disinformation campaign around Amelia Earhart, what’s the point? Sure, the Japanese government might not like to be known as the entity that killed an aviation pioneer and hero to men and women around the world, but it’s not like that was their only blemish on a spotless human rights record during the Second World War.

Well, it might not be a foreign power who is interested in keeping the truth buried. Some say the U.S. government covered it up because she actually was on a spy mission One of the pieces of evidence that they talk about is a secret Japanese diplomatic communique that was intercepted by the Americans where the Japanese say they believe the plane went down in the vicinity of the Marshall Islands. The communique was in a code that the Navy was able to break. Because the U.S. didn’t want the Japanese to know that we could break their code, we played dumb.

Sure, the Japanese government might not want to look like bad guys. Sure, the Unites States government might not want people to know that they turned a pioneering female celebrity into a spy. But is that reason to spread disinformation eighty years after the fact?

This new discovery shows that the U.S. was able to break Japanese secret codes in 1937. And if we were able to do that, how much of a stretch is it to believe that we were able to decode their messages in 1941?

If the United States knew that Japan was going to attack Pearl Harbor and did nothing about it, then that’s something worth spreading disinformation for. Now that’s a reason to change the narrative from Amelia and Fred being executed by the Japanese to just being lost in the South Pacific. That’s a reason to embarrass the researchers involved in Amelia Earhart: The Lost Evidence. And it’s not like the government are strangers to running disinformation campaigns…

Did FDR know in advance about Pearl Harbor? Prior to the war, a vast majority of the American public was opposed to getting involved in another European war. And the day after, everything changed. Patriotic Americans were signing up left and right to get involved in the war. We could finally help the United Kingdom, whose Prime Minister Winston Churchill had been pressuring Roosevelt for assistance for years by this point.

And Roosevelt was elected to end The Great Depression. Even with The New Deal programs in place, unemployment was at 20% in 1939. What’s a better jobs program than the largest war in history?

While there are several pieces of evidence that suggest, even if they didn’t know the specifics of the attack, they were intent on provoking Japan enough to attack. Robert D. Stinnett’s Day of Deceit: The Truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor details the McCollum memo which is an 8-step plan dated in October of 1940 that would be intended to draw a Japanese attack. Then, in 2011, a memo was found that the White House was warned three days before Pearl Harbor that the Japanese were readying for an imminent attack on Hawaii.

And then, on the other side, NPR ran a story titled “No, FDR did not know the Japanese were going to bomb Pearl Harbor”. The New York Times Magazine even ran an article called “The Weaponization of ‘Truther’” that lumps 9/11, Pearl Harbor, sasquatch, and Area 51 believers into the same bunch.

Look, in this day and age of “fake news” and “alternative facts”, disinformation has become just another part of the Culture Wars that we fight on social media. There are trusted news sources on the left, the MSNBC, CNN or NPR. And there’s the FOX News and Breitbart sites where Donald Trump’s supporters get their trusted information.

CNN and NPR both covered the Amelia Earhart photo “debunking” like the case was settled. Don’t believe it? Well then, you’re probably an Alex Jones-style conspiracy theorist and you’re just crazy. Alex Jones is the boy who cried wolf and the world no longer cares. He’s not a dangerous truth-crusader standing up against a cruel government conspiring to remake the world in an elitist image, he’s an Internet comedy meme now (this video of him ranting over a Bon Iver song got over a half-million hits in 4 days alone).

Disinformation has always existed but now stories can go viral and reach millions of people all over the world in an instant. We don’t know claim to know the truth about Amelia Earhart and we don’t know the truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor. But we do know that the official story isn’t usually the whole story . Everything we read has an agenda. Whether it’s as obvious as an editorial telling you who to vote for, a conspiracy theory blogpost, or a clickbait listicle that just wants to show you Viagra ads, always remember it’s our job to question everything

Welcome to See youe on the Other side, where the world of

the mysterious collides with the world of entertainment.

A discussion of art, music, movies, spirituality,

the weird, and self discovery. And

now your hosts, musicians and entertainers

who have their own weakness for the weird. Mike and

Wendy from the band Sunspot. You

know what everybody has been talking about this week, guys? I know.

Yes. Yep. Everybody's been talking about it this week. And we actually

even had a different topic arranged for the show and then

wanted to leap in and join the discussion because we were

so inspired. It's happening. What I'm happy about

is, you know, after 80 years, people are talking about

Amelia Earhart. I mean, it's amazing that there's so much

discussion around this newest documentary that

Amelia Earhart, the Lost Evidence, that aired on a history

channel just this week. Yeah. And it was obviously

very exciting because they said they had a lot, and it's been going on for,

like, a couple of weeks. So the. The pre show

was that they started showing this picture that said that you could

see Amelia Earhart and her navigator. What was her

navigator's name? Fred Noonan. Fred Noonan, that's right.

Noonan. Makes me think of the actor Tom Noonan, who's like, this really tall guy

that always plays like a killer. And so every time I think. So, every time

I heard the name Fred Noonan in the documentary, I just kept

thinking about Tom Noonan, like, about to murder

someone. Like, he's always behind Amelia Earhart with a knife or something like that.

Anyway, so, yeah, so the picture claims that they are on a dock

in the Marshall Islands in 1937. So let's give everybody.

If you don't know anything about Amelia Earhart, you know, let's say you're a

millennial and don't know anything about Amelia. Earhart, now's your time to

learn. Yes. What would. And I'm just kidding. Millennials. I love you.

Well, without them, we wouldn't have the craft beer thing. That's my great revolution. Are

we all millennials, Mike? Sure we are. That's right.

Sure. Anyway, we fake it. So if

you are unfamiliar with Amelia Earhart, here's just a quick thing

about her. She was the. I mean, a

pioneer in female aviation. I mean, I'm speaking.

I'm mansplaining this to the girls. Oh, dear. Yeah, yeah.

So not a pioneer in female aviation. Just a pioneer in

aviation, really. Yeah. There you go. And so back when planes were

just first, people were still getting excited about it and stuff like that.

Amelia Earhart was not. I mean, she

was going across the Atlantic. She was the first female to fly across the Atlantic,

Right? Yep. Correct. And then she had a thing

where she was going to be the first pilot, period. To circumnavigate the globe.

Right, okay. And this was in 1937.

She was gonna do it. She was 39. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

She was old. Yes. She was bold. Oh,

bold. I thought you said she was old. No,

bold. You know, so her and Tom Noonan.

Fortune favors the bold. Sorry. Fortune does favor the bold. So

it's her and Tom Noonan, and they're in the plane, and they've already made it

over most of the planet. They land in New guinea,

and that's where the last place they take off, that's the last place they were

seen by other people alive. At least that's the last place we're assured that she

was seen alive. Correct, Right, Yes. And there is footage of her leaving New

Guinea. Like, somebody took out one of those old cameras where they're obviously

probably cranking it themselves and stuff, because you see the footage in the

documentary in Amelia Earhart, the Lost Evidence, and it looks. I mean,

it looks like it's cool. To have it, though. Yeah. Yeah. Like,

who is the. Who was the, like, videographer, who was the

cinematographer in New Guinea? Like, I got to get a shot of this.

I don't know, maybe. Well, newsreel could be newsreel footage. Yeah, true. You know,

probably Amelia Earhart leaves New guinea and the last 7,000

miles because they only. They only.

You took me there, Mike. You really did. Thank you. Thank you.

Okay, so it's Amelia Earhart and Tom Noonan, and then they never seen again.

That's the story. That's the story as we know it.

So they're never seen again, and this becomes this great

mystery, what happened to Amelia Earhart? And that's what people wonder. I

mean, did they go down in the drink?

Did they go on some deserted island and just live a life like

Gilligan's Island's island for the rest of their day? There's

another researcher who took talks about that,

but the team that was working on the lost

evidence feels that, you know, they have the most

documentation to really support their hypothesis.

And their hypothesis is that Amelia Earhart crash landed in the

Marshall Islands. That's right. And, well,

they were captured. So they survived and then was captured

by the Japanese. That's right. And eventually executed by the Japanese.

Yeah, taken. Taken to the island of Saipan, imprisoned,

and then later Executed and buried there on

Saipan. Yeah. So it's not really much of that kind of

South Pacific vacation that we all dream about. Yeah, it's not that

good story where. Where Amelia and Fred, you know,

they. Eventually fall in love. Fall in love like the Blue Lagoon,

except older. But it's okay. We can still run with that.

Yeah, but they. They. When they left, they.

It was overcast and cloudy, and so there were, you know,

theories that that was part of the problem. Right. Yeah.

The weather is always part of the problem. They thought the

radio antenna might have been damaged and things like that, so. Especially in those

early days of flight. Right. But then they

never found anything. Yeah. And that. That's the problem. That's

why we're still wondering what. What happened to her even 80 years later.

Well, I don't buy the coconut theory. I don't buy the

castaways theory, because they'd have help. We'd see this from

satellites. You would see a huge thing of help written in coconuts at the beach

somewhere. Well, actually, I did

interview one of the principal

researchers who was featured in Amelia Earhart, the Last

Evidence. His name is Richard Spink. He did talk about

that castaway theory in the interview

and talks about why he thinks that's implausible.

I mean, that's my favorite theory. I mean, I hate to think of,

you know, Fred being beheaded and, you know, who

knows what happened to Amelia, but she ends up dead, too. And,

I mean, that's just not. You hate to think of, you know,

those adventurers going out in that way. Well, you think about this,

though, like, of course the Japanese are going to think they're spies because they got

a plane, they got a camera. You know, they're

Americans, so they're a foreign power. And maybe I'm thinking of it because I

just watched Bridge of Spies last week, the Tom Hanks movie about

the U2 plane in the Cold War. And that's all about

spy planes. So, you know, there were hostile. I mean,

Japan was already involved in World War II because they were at

war with China at the time. So they were already in the middle of the

war. And the US Was obviously

encroaching in the Pacific because we had the base on Pearl Harbor.

And we'll talk about all that kind of stuff in a little while after

your interview with Dick Spink, who is one of the

researchers. National Geographic even did a really fascinating article

on Dick called One Man's Dogged Search for Amelia

Earhart. And the bylines like, teacher has spent

$50,000 trying to prove the able aviator didn't crash into the Pacific

and instead landed on a tiny island. So we're going to get to that

interview. But so I can see why the Japanese would think she was a

spy. Right. Because she had all the equipment to be a spy. And what do

you do with spies? Right. And also she didn't have the look of

a typical female of that time. You know, she wore pants a lot

and they refer to as a tomboy. So I could see where that might also

give them an impression of like she's trying to. Oh yeah, you know,

disguised or something like that. Yeah. Or, or that she's a threat.

Right? Yes. She's like Vasquez and aliens where you kind of,

you know, you're, you know, you're kind of intimidated by her. And also when you

think about the traditional Japanese society. Right. And the role of women.

Yes, right. It's not a very, I mean, even in today's society

I would say that the, the role of women is not as, well,

equal. Yeah. I mean, I can't say that even in the US we're all,

you know, like, we're not that much better. But

it just kind of, it kind of makes you think. So the Japanese don't know

what to do with her. And so what happens when you don't know what to

do with somebody? You kill them.

Yeah. You just get them out of the way. Well, I think that was the

most compelling part of the special. It wasn't just that like when they

did the radio thing because they were trying to see if a radio signal

from the Marshall Islands could reach like

Tennessee or what? I mean there was a, there was a woman

who'd heard the broadcast. She said she had heard Amelia

Earhart in like on

her radio. She picked up the signal of her shortwave. She was a

shortwave operator. But there were other people

that claimed to have picked it up. In Canada as well. There

were people who have claimed to hear signals

from Amelia or hear transformations. Yeah.

So that whole thing, I was like, oh, I hadn't heard that before. So people

had claimed to hear signals. And it wasn't just that, it was that the signal

she heard identified her at that island. Ah, that's right. She

heard her say like, I don't know, landing and whatever the name of the island

was. Jaluit. It was a two name island.

Yeah. So she was in the Marshall island chain. And it

seems like a lot of points of evidence are

coming together to point towards the Marshall Islands.

Emilia Atoll was the Place where. There you go. Yeah.

Emilia Atoll was the island in the Marshall island

chain where she is said to have crashed. That's the

hypothesis. Right. And so the presenters,

the researchers, had multiple pieces of evidence that

seemed to line up and point to Amelie Atoll as,

you know, the most likely place for the crash to have occurred.

But what I thought was the smoking gun was probably all the people who

had said they'd seen Amelia Earhart over the years. Right. The eyewitness

reports, we cannot discount that. I know that's anecdotal

evidence, but that's where things start. And our court system is. Is

built on eyewitness accounts. So to think of all these

people in the Marshall Islands who had memory. I mean,

a lot of these people are dying now because

they're elders. This was 80 years ago.

But the fact that so many people there

have this knowledge that, yes, Amelia Earhart crashed

here, or that this woman

and man crashed here. Caucasians

taken away by the Japanese. The woman,

you know, she didn't dress like a woman, she had short hair.

You know, so a lot of people recognize that something

strange was happening, but didn't know that it was

Amelia Earhart. But their accounts,

very closely just, you know. Exactly, I would say,

match the description. Yeah. And they also matched each other's. A lot

of them, you know, where they said some them even thought she was a man,

but they heard the soldiers and people, the buzz about a female

flyer or female pilot. Yeah, that was the.

The one woman who still is alive that said she saw her. So that there's

one woman who lives in Los Angeles and she's still alive. San

Francisco. Right. Californians. And she

remembers seeing her. So that was like. There's one eyewitness. You

know, what I did think was kind of bs, though, was when. So who's the

guy? That was it. Sean John Henry. Sean Henry was the

former Assistant Director of the FBI. And he looks just like Uncle

Hank from Breaking Bad. He does. He does. Well, what I

thought was funny, though, was like they kept showing that picture of him

with the Attorney General. You know, they kept on saying, like, just, just in case

you forget that this guy was

in the FBI, and here's him with the Attorney General of the United States,

just for extra, you know, to make sure that you believe this guy is not

just like some History Channel dude, like, like,

like Giorgio with the crazy hair. Like, he comes. Established credibility.

It is. But I have to say that he did have pretty good TV presence,

which made me suspicious. Right. Because it's like, come on, Man.

Yeah. And see, that's the thing. I think what is needed here

is a point by point through the evidence, and

that's not really what you get from tv,

which is true visual medium, stupidly visual,

in that people maybe need to see that picture

of Sean Henry with the Attorney General,

you know, and they need to have somebody with that TV presence.

Well, right. If they. If somebody's stuttering the whole time, it's not gonna be very

compelling television. Nobody's gonna like

Amelia. Right. But the problem is, where is the

substance? We need substance, and flash over

substance is what we're seeing right now with the current controversy. This has no

bearing on anything except that, like I said, I was suspicious because I'm like,

why does this guy seem like an actor or some kind of a personality when

he's supposed to be the FBI guy? You know, he's supposed to be like. So

I. I was thinking perhaps if the show had been formatted differently,

like with an actual host interviewing Sean. You know what I mean? Although

I guess he was the one leading the investigation. But it just. It felt like

so many times he was turning the camera and kind of winking. Like, right now,

this is. This is good, guys. Right? So it had that

contrived feeling. Yeah. But I think it was good that they were getting the testimony.

But then he's like, here's why he believe. And that's. That's what

I. That's what got me. Cause he's like, well, you know, she's looking off into

the distance like she sees it. Like she sees it in her memory. And you'll

notice that happens when a lot of people tell the truth. They'll look in the

distance as if they're trying to see it, and they see the memory.

And I'm like, get. Okay. Like, I don't need

to hear that kind of stuff. I think he was trying to talk about, you

know, interviewing witnesses and what witnesses typically

do when recounting something. So. So when people

analyze, you know, when. When

people in law enforcement are analyzing people giving

testimony, they do look for signs of visual

signs that you're lying. Tells. That's true. Tells. And

so that's. I think that's what he was trying to express there. But he

also. Anytime the other guy said, I don't know, he's like, the fact

that he said, I don't know, shows that he's being honest. It's

just, you know, it seemed like every time it was compelling toward his side

of the argument. Yeah. It was like a textbook for how you lie to the

police. Yeah. Like, now I know next time I get pulled over, it's like, you

know, how fast you were going? I don't know. And I'll look off into

the distance. And be like, pretend you're elsewhere.

55, 60 miles an hour.

But no, that kind of stuff was a little too much. But I did enjoy

actually getting to see the people who had claimed that, because that, to

me, it becomes more than like, the oral tradition, because that's

the thing in a lot, like in a place like the Marshall Islands and a

lot of these South Pacific places, too, is that the tradition of oral history

to them is just as important. Like, we believe things that are written in history

books, and they have a long tradition of oral history. And I think that was

something cool to see as well, in that the tale of

Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan Lally on the island is now part of

the Marshall Islands. Like the oral history. The history when they. When they tell people

of. Of the. Of their. Of the 20th century. And in spite of

the fact that it was kind of cheesy whenever he would make those little statements

about the credibility of the storytellers, I agree with you that the

people recounting their stories from their parents and things that they saw

was the most compelling part of the actual documentary.

Yeah. That these are real people and this tragedy impacted

their lives and they seemed believable. Right. And the thing

is, you know, you have to understand what it was like for them at the

time. You have to keep. Keep that in perspective as well,

that they were. They were in a time of fear,

a time when their islands were being

occupied by the Japanese. And these are

Chamorro people that live there. And we know someone who's Chamorro, don't we,

Mike? Yes, we do. Yes, we do. My

godmother is from Guam, and she's

Chamurro, and she has told us about when the

Japanese occupied Guam. So it was a very fearful

time. And if you know how memory works,

memory really kicks in when you are afraid,

when you are frightened. So the memories of

these people are perhaps even more credible because of that Japanese

occupation and because the Japanese soldiers were

raiding homes for food and resources. And

so, you know, people, as like, happened in Guam

were in a scary state of mind at that time. Well, the

thing is, though, to play devil's advocate to that, though, that is

how fear, you know, fear does, you know, increase the sharpness of memory,

but at the same time, it also makes you more susceptible to, like, a memory

being Planned suggestions. I'm not. That memory being planted

sounds like some kind of science fiction thing. I think Wendy said it is

suggested. So. I mean that 90 year old woman,

she could have been told by somebody that, you know, if this is also, this

is part of the history of the Marshall Islands now, like you were saying, they

featured Amelia Earhart on a stamp. Right. So has

she been suggested to that, you know, hey, we saw, we saw some white woman

down there and it looks like the Japanese, you know, had taken her

that to her. Now she remembers seeing the woman. Now that's not how it played

out, but I'm just playing devil's advocate that, you know, we even had an

episode about how memories while you were saying that the

legal system runs on memories. Yeah. Memories

also can be very misleading. And

you know, suggestions can lead to people remembering things that never happened. And then

also. So people with the whole satanic ritual abuse

and things like that, it's happening. The same kind of thing's happening now.

Yeah, the memories are a bit of a sticky wicket. I mean,

if you are in a state of fear, chances are you're going

to remember what happened because

it's just basic survival. You want to be able to use that information

in the future to keep yourself from harm. So

something of novelty that comes about in a time of

fear is also something that would be

remembered anything of novelty. So

were the people in the Marshall Islands thinking about

Amelia Earhart? I don't think so. I think most of them didn't know

who she was. But for a Caucasian

woman to show up and to be dressed as a man

with short hair, to be a female flyer, I mean, those things

would really stick out. And that's what we saw in the

documentary. These people that were interviewed really

noticed because of that and because these people

crashed on the island and then were taken away

as prisoners by the Japanese. And that's actually what's featured

in the stamp. And the fact that they knew the boat that

took them away to the Koshu. It's not like some

boat, it's like. No, we know the boat. It was called the Koshu.

Come on. I mean that, those are some real compelling specifics

there. But what I want to talk about here is, you

know, I think a lot of the things, you know, eyewitness

testimony, the different paperwork that they found

regarding transmissions that people received,

all those documents that they were able to bring forward, okay, that's

dull in TV land, but that's what I think

people need to rewatch the documentary and focus on.

But that's not what's being focused on. Not. Not the. Not

the eyewitness accounts, not the historical

documentation, not the fact that there are

interviews with Marines who said that they were sent

to Saipan, where supposedly Noonan and

Earhart were taken away to and died

and were buried on Saipan. These Marines were

sent to Saipan to recover the bodies

of Fred Noonan and Amelia Earhart. Why

would they lie, is my question. So all of

these things really pile up and point to

this hypothesis as possibly being

valid. I'm not saying it is. I'm just saying the evidence seemed pretty

compelling. But right now, all

anybody seems to remember is that photo, which

purportedly shows Fred Noonan and Amelia

Earhart on a dock in the Marshall Islands

off in the distance. Yeah, and really, the photo.

This is the other part of the documentary that didn't really jive with me

too, because you're sitting there and they're taking, like, this.

This Photoshop analysis of the photo. They're looking at it,

and the guy's, like, looking at specific kind of things, and he's like, well,

it kind of looks like Amelia Earhart's back. And, you know, trying to prove

that this is Amelia Earhart. And really, when you look at the photo, it is

hard to see. Yeah. Even with the big thing, the guy's hairline was

what they compared, which, I mean, that's not. Yeah, it was the

flimsiest part of the evidence. You know, why are we stuck on

it? Because what. You know, why is that the only thing people

remember? Well, I think the idea is that a photo is not

something you can easily disprove, you know, especially a photo from the

1930s, because that's not like a. Like a modern photo where

somebody put up a picture of the slender man and a 4chan for him. You

know, this is something that is from the National Archives

from before. People were messing with photos, and we had

access to this, you know, special. Anybody can create a special effect of a

UFO in the sky or a ghost in the background. And this is before they

could do that. So this is. That would be then the smoking gun. But the

problem is, is this smoking gun is such a soft piece of evidence,

because it does look. It's a gimmick. Let's just say that it's that one

of those gee whiz, gimmicks that people put in TV shows, you know, to

get. Draw people in and get them to watch. But the thing is here, though,

that it worked for the pre show in that it got

Everybody excited to watch. The show, talking about it. So

4.32 million people watched it live. It was the

biggest show on cable all week. It beat out Fear of the Walking Dead. It

beat out every other show on cable. 4.32 million

viewers for a basic cable show is a huge number.

And so there was going to be some kind of impact there because it was

the biggest show the weekend was what everybody was talking about. Now what happens

immediately after. So, like, two days after the thing comes up

is there's a Japanese blogger and he's somebody that opposes

the idea that Amelia Earhart was executed by the Japanese because it just doesn't

make you look good. Yeah, it doesn't make the Japanese look good. It's

not that good for pr. Right. And so he goes in, says that in

a 30 minute Google search, he finds this picture in

the Japanese national library from a 1935

travelogue of the Marshall Islands. Now what

does that remind you of that? Quick debunking. That

remind anybody of anything? Well, the Roswell slides. Totally.

It does. Totally. But this is not the

Roswell slides because there's more to this than just

a picture or two, Right? Exactly. A lot more evidence.

Yeah. And here's the thing, too, and this is just the nature of our current,

like, clickbaity Internet world in that every

news organization that featured originally the Amelia

Earhart picture, they're like, hey, this picture proves that Amelia earhart was in

1937 Marshall Islands. Now we know what happened to her. So two

days before, they're all printing the story. And here's the thing about, like

every blog and, you know, just reprints

the same thing. Absolutely. You guys notice that? Yeah. So annoying.

Cnn, same thing. USA Today, Same thing. How about some new

information? It's like somebody took like the AP Wire thing and they're all just making

book reports of it. Right. It really is like all the, like,

where we get our news now, especially the stuff that's shared on Facebook and Twitter.

It's all like reprints of somebody else's original

material. And that drives me crazy because, like, I subscribe to, like,

I don't know, six or seven different paranormal news sources,

six or seven different cinema news sources. Because I want to hear about, like, what

the movies are coming out and it's the same story on everyone. Everyone is the

same story. And it's always, it always links back to the original and none of

its original reporting. So what happens with this is. What's the

headline? The headline isn't just new questions about Amelia Earhart photo.

That's not the story. The story is, what kind of stoops are these History

Channel people if some blogger can take 30 minutes and

debunk it? So this is obviously bullcrap, right?

So it's weird how. Okay, so they started out

being preoccupied with the photo and saying, oh, here it is. It's the smoking

gun. It's proof. And it isn't proof. I

mean, no matter if this blogger is right or not.

I mean, even if. Okay, yes,

maybe it's found in the National Archives. You know,

there's. There's. It seems to look like Fred Noonan and

Amelia Earhart. It's still not definitive. It's not proof, no matter

how you slice it. So. But it's just all these news

outlets were running to hold out this photo as

proof, and. And then now, as you said, Mike, they just turn around

the complete other direction and saying, oh, it's all crap

because some blogger said so. It's crap. Well, and the thing

is, that's where we are. And so I posted something I'd say earlier this week

about the Amelia Earhart photo on Twitter. And then people responding to

it after the whole blogger came out and said it was fake, were like, well,

you know, this is obviously a fake picture. It has been debunked now as

if this is a settled fact. Okay. Yeah. And so there's a lot

more to the story, and I think we should get to that interview with Richard

Spink now, Dick Spank, and talk to him really quick about what he

thinks, because he's been working on this for years, Right?

Absolutely. And Richard Spink, he actually didn't find the

photo, but he works with the researcher Les Kinney, who did

find the photo in the National Archives. So that's an interesting

point, too. I mean, it was in the National Archives,

and it's also in this Japanese media library.

So, yeah, we should get to talking to Richard Spink

because he has some thoughts for us about

the authenticity of the photo and also

is able, I think, to give some points which might eventually

help us debunk the debunker.

Can we talk about that photo a little bit? I know you talked about it

in the interview, and I don't want to talk too much about that,

because I think the enormity of the evidence, besides that

really supports your hypothesis,

and everybody's really focusing on the picture, but

it seems like something weird is going on. The only thing weird about

that photograph is that some Japanese

blogger came up with it with that

same photograph. In a scrapbook. Right. And it's

a loosely held together scrapbook held together by

string. And there's other photographs in there that are not.

They're, you know, post 1935.

Some of the dates in there are on photographs. They're from 1935. That's not a

question. But our photograph is not stamped 1935. That

dock that they're sitting on in that photograph did not exist in

1935. And I've got a letter from

Robert Reimers that says that he was the one that delivered material to

that. Right. And it's really taking precedence, which is a

shame, because, you know, my point is, you had so much other evidence

that was so compelling. That's right. And now the

only thing anybody wants to fight about now is the picture, which is really

dumb, because who cares? Everybody wants their

five minutes of fame, right? Who cares about a stupid picture? What about all

the other documentation? What about all the eyewitness reports? That's what

I'm saying. So. But it is important to just

prolong this, you know,

this and make it a scandal because it sells

newspapers. So. And we're just trying to set the

record straight now. So we're, we're working on that right now. I was up

until 3 this morning working on some things because only 10 o' clock at night

in the Marshalls that time. So it just is,

you know, it's been a long, long week.

Absolutely. But the important thing is that, you know, probably

more people are talking about Amelia than ever right now. And so we gotta, like,

keep that going, but get it running in a direction of accuracy.

The woman was an amazing woman. She had nerves of steel and she started the

women's movement. And we need to give her all the credit in the world that

we can give her. You got no argument from me.

She wasn't that great of a pilot. Okay. You know, she

did crash 11 airplanes, but she was able to walk,

you know, was able to walk away from them. So she was good at crash

landing them. Hey, Howard Hughes. Howard Hughes crashed a

lot too, so. And if she would have spent

as much time learning how to navigate properly, use her

radios, because she had the latest in radio technology at the time for radio

navigation. If she would have spent as much time learning how to

navigate properly as she spent promoting that flight,

you know, we wouldn't be having this conversation. So one more thing about

the photo then. So Les does say that he did get it

from the National Archives. And so the position

then is that, yes, it was in the National Archives.

Labeled in a certain way. But then it was also maybe

in this travelogue as well. But,

you know, as far as dating it, we. We can't date it

with that 1935 date. That's inaccurate.

Yeah, the date is inaccurate. Right. And so.

And you said that the dock itself was not built until

1936. That's right. And so where did

you get that information about 1936? That

came from the several old people that I know that lived there.

Yeah. So elders. And that's it. And so what we're trying to do

is document that. And the one document that I do have right now,

which you can find online. Okay. Is an interview that was

done by Bill Primack. Okay. Bill Primack was the head of the

Amelia earhart Society and Mr. Primax

Newsletter in May of

1997. And you can find this

online. Okay. In the interview, Reimer says,

imidje, that's Jabor. Jaliut

was a very secret place, and even my local people had little access

to this area. I was one of the few marshalles allowed in because I delivered

construction materials regularly. The Jabber docks were built in

1936, and the seaplane ramps and docks for the naval base me

did were started about the same time. My shipping records were all taken by

the Japanese when the Great War started. But I'm sure of the dates I

just mentioned. And then he goes on. But that's

specifically relating to that. And

he escaped and got away with his two oldest children at that time.

And he just escaped being beheaded by the Japanese

because he was trying to feed his own family. And

there was some food that was supposed to go to the Japanese troops that he

took to feed his family. There was a lot of stuff that went on

like that in Guam as well. I have some relations in Guam,

So questions regarding her capture by the

Japanese. Has the Japanese government or

anyone connected with the Japanese government ever

commented or made any statement regarding

this? They're going to look pretty bad, and they don't want

this. This is one of the reasons we believe this Japanese blogger is coming out

saying, oh, no, no, no, no, no. This is all hogwash.

Because it's gonna really give him a black eye. It's gonna give all the people

that love FDR a black eye. I mean, FDR at the

time probably made a pretty good decision. You know, you gotta Remember this is

1937. Tensions are high between Japan and the United

States, and FDR was supporting

his base crowd, which was 75% of the population that were

isolationists. They didn't want anything to do with another world war.

They came out of one World War I. And memories

were still pretty vivid. So FDR was supporting that base, trying to

keep us out of the war. And, you know, at that particular

time in 1937, Japan's navy was quite a bit larger than ours.

If things could have happened that the American public would have found

out that the Japanese are holding America's sweetheart ticker tape parades. New York.

I might be speaking Japanese today. And then one other thing

to talk about was in 1940, FDR had an election

coming up against. And,

you know, that could have turned the table on him. So it's politics as

usual. Absolutely. The Japanese have never

made any statements regarding this, to your knowledge?

They've been asked multiple times. Fred Gorner

had one interview on the radio. He went to Japan to try and find that

out. And while he was on hold, the captain of

the Koshu Maru called in, and they never connected. So many people

have been so close for so many years. It's been amazing.

And yet we haven't been able to get that

smoking gun that we need, that piece of material that's got the

serial number on it of her airplane that ended up in Saipan.

You know, you look at interviews by Robert Wallach, Thomas Devine,

all these Marines that were firsthand witnesses to her

in Saipan, I mean, you just. The list goes

on and on and on. What would be their motivation to lie,

really? I mean, because it kind of makes them look bad. I'll tell you exactly

what the motivation to lie is. If you've ever followed Rick Gillespie.

No, I'm saying the Marines. Why would the Marines lie?

Oh, they wouldn't. They wouldn't at all. But if you want to take a look

at the other people that are creating other stories that are going other

ways to profit. I mean, I'm in this thing.

I mean, I'm a schoolteacher. Okay. I don't have a lot of money to be

throwing at this thing. Me, too. Me too. I understand. And

it's just. It's ridiculous to look at. You

know, I've. Well, the last time I counted, I was in at over

$50,000. And I'm leaving again Wednesday to go back to Japan.

Right. It's not cheap to fly out. Yeah. I gotta be back by the time

school starts, so. But some of the other things that are just really,

you know, upsetting are these people that are just obviously

chasing down stories like her dying

as a castaway in Nika Maroro. I mean, this is amazing. That

this man has been able to continually fabricate a

story like that. I mean, it's.

And people continue to go after it. I mean, you know, in

the early 1950s, the Coast Guard built a Rand station on that island where

Gillespie's looking. So there was dozens of Coast Guardmen that, you know,

called Gardner island home. You know, they were off and

board and hiked all over every inch of that island, okay? And

you know, that island was searched by three U.S. open cockpit

biplanes, and they flew from 50ft to

500ft over that island for 30 minutes. You know, that island's

only 400 yards long and it's, you know, or

at its widest point, it's 400 yards wide, I meant to say. Yeah, but very

small in any case. Well, if they were there, they would have heard those noisy

planes flying over and run out to the beach and say, hey, we're here, we're

here. They never saw anything. So that's why that hypothesis

is not viable, you think?

Well, but you know, he keeps coming up with the same story about once every

three years, the same story, oh, a bone he might have found which ended up

being a turtle bone, freckle cream bottle, shoes. I've

been on those islands down there and there are

piles of anything that floats up on the beach,

okay, and you know, shoes and particles

of clothing. And then he says they died of starvation. My

God, there's coconuts, bananas, there's everything.

And the fish, there was an old wreck that was in the lagoon there.

And the fish you could catch by hand out of that lagoon. That's what the

coast guardsmen used to do. And I don't know that

story. It's just amazing that that man has got so much traction. And the media

loves him like they do, but, you know, he's put a really good team of

people together, pays them all well to continue to come up and support his

hypothesis. Well, let's talk a little bit about disinformation then,

because that to me is

maybe part of what's going on here. I don't know. And

I know that people think you're crazy. If you ever say that the

US government lies to us, they're like, oh, you're a crazy

person. But we know that governments lie and we know there are cover

ups and we know that disinformation is a thing. So could there

be some kind of disinformation campaign going on? You know,

maybe that's why that other researcher you mentioned

is getting so much traction. Well, you

know, it's been 80 years. Okay. We just

passed the 80th anniversary of her disappearance.

None of the firsthand people that could be held accountable for any, like, anything

like this are alive today. So our

whole point. And when you go for

papers that are still being held top secret, you have to have a specific

reason why. And if they were hidden by a presidential directive,

then, you know, you need

a specific reason to go in and go after those. And we

have applied for less. Less is the one that has

applied for many, many, many. I can't even tell you how many Freedom

of Information act requests, and

several of them have been denied, and they don't have to give you a reason

why. We have got files that are missing, lots of

files that are missing on this specific case. And anyway,

Les doesn't have his book together all the way yet, but he's going to be

releasing his book, and I think it's going to be probably the most

accurate book with a collection of

historical data. Mike Campbell's got a great book out there, too.

The Truth at Last. You've seen this book, probably. Oh,

no, I haven't. Okay. Gonna write that down. Yeah.

Mike Campbell. Yep. Mike Campbell. The Truth At

Last. He's actually got. There's one chapter in there

about my work. Mike's a good man. He.

He doesn't believe our photo is actually totally

correct because he is.

He is. He just doesn't believe in

the media in any form, telling any truth.

And he's just. I haven't been able to really

pin Mike down for why he doesn't think this is

totally accurate. Well, and again, it's just a photo.

There's a lot of other evidence.

The fact that everybody's panning everything else just because of a

photo is just really dumb. Let's just say that.

Because the enormity of the evidence really supports what you're saying. That's right.

And Thomas Devine's book, you know, which you've probably seen, which

is this book I witnessed. Thomas Devine. He

is one of the. You know, he

was a good friend of Mike Campbell and Mike. Mike. Mike has a collection of

evidence of a lot of good writers. Mike isn't a pure researcher himself. He

basically collects a lot of other information that the researchers have done and puts it

down in a book. So it's. I don't

know. There's just. There's so much

compelling evidence that anybody that really

researches Amelia Earhart, and I didn't research Amelia. I knew nothing about her five

years ago. The only reason I got into this at all is because I was

traveling on business to the Marshall Islands. I sell aluminum boat kits besides

teaching. And I was in the Marshall Islands, and this

story was given to me. It was handed to me. I didn't go out

looking for it. And so. And how did that happen?

Did you meet someone, or how did you get involved?

I have a man down there by the name of Ramsey Reimers, happens

to be Robert Reimer's youngest son. And he

was, you know, looking at my webpage and

my aluminum boat Kit webpage, aluminumboat

kit.com, and he

said, got a hold of me. We Skyped and had a couple phone calls. He

says, I just want to fly you down here and see what it is we're

doing. And so I flew down there, got to

meet some really important people, fell in love with the country. The

country is absolutely beautiful. And I ended up

making several trips back. On about my third trip, I was sitting with

Ramsay and Tony de Broom, and there were some other

dignitaries there from Parliament. And

I just made the comment when we were talking about the war

relics there, I made the comment, didn't Amelia Earhart disappear in this part of the

world? And there was an old guy there that was sitting at the table with.

He said, yeah, she landed on our island, and my uncle watched her for two

days. And that's how it started for me.

First of all, let's thank Dick for his time for coming on the show. And

talking with us. Yes, thank you. Because it's nice to get somebody who's so involved

in this, who works with the researchers who are involved in the production of the

documentary. Right. And he was featured in the documentary as well,

so. I know, Mike, you. When we first started talking about doing this

episode, you were questioning me about, like, well,

why do people even care about what happened to amelia

Earhart after 80 years? I mean, why can't we just all

come clean if we knew about this? Let's say we. We

knew about it. So we talked about the photo itself and how

perhaps there's a motive there from a Japanese

blogger not wanting the Japanese to be implicated

in the death of America's sweetheart. Right. Okay,

so that might be the motivation. There, but that doesn't seem to me like, compelling

enough. Because the thing is, the Japanese were vilified during World War II to such

extent. I mean, you can say, like, okay, they didn't kill Amelia

Earhart, but they still did scientific experiments on prisoners of war. Like, you

still can't get around that one. Right? Why would our government hide the fact that

especially for this many years. So, so we know

why the Japanese might hide it. But I think your

question is, is why would the US Government hide it?

Okay, so what has been alleged in the

documentary is that the US Government did

know that Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan crashed in the Marshall Islands,

but that area was off limits to them. This is what is the contention.

So how did they know? Apparently, and this

is what's alleged again, they knew because they were able to

pick up and decode secret

transmissions from the Japanese and they

couldn't do anything about Amelia because

they knew they were leading up to the war and they had to

preserve their ability to derive

intelligence. Yeah. They couldn't

let it slide, let it slip that they, they

knew how to decode the secret communications of the Japanese

because they knew that that would be essential to have that

knowledge during World War II. So. But

Mike, what was your point after I said that? Because, because the first thing I

thought about, well, if they knew how to decode the Japanese signals, then they must

have known about Pearl Harbor. Yeah. You know, and if they knew about Pearl

harbor, then. Now that plot thickens. Now that is a reason for

disinformation because you're not going to let out like you remember that thing

that killed 1500 US servicemen and led us into the war that

killed half a million U.S. servicemen. Well, we kind of knew.

We kind of knew it was coming and we just didn't do anything about it.

Yeah, we did it and we let it happen so that we would have a

compelling reason to get into World War II. December 7th. A day that will live

in infamy, maybe in more ways than one. Well,

that's the thing. And that's an. They were thinking that FDR knew

about Pearl harbor all the way back to the 1950s. You

know, there were six different inquiries, like even the Senate and the

Congress. But you know how reliable those Senate and Congressional

inquiries can be. You know, the Warren Commission did such a bang up job

on the JFK assassination that, you know, they'd always

uncover the truth. But that's the thing. And people have

alleged that without Pearl harbor, we wouldn't have gotten to World War II. And

you know, Churchill had been pressuring Roosevelt to get into the

war for a long time. And 88% of the American

people, including President Kennedy, father Joseph Kennedy, did not want

to get involved in a European war because, like, why should we worry?

You know, you just had millions of people die in World War I for

what? Now 25 years later, they're going to do it all again, like let them.

And so 88% of the American people opposed us getting involved in the Second World

War until Pearl harbor happened. And so the researchers allege that

FDR administration not only knew about it, but

provoked the Japanese into the attack.

Right. Well, there's something called the McCullum Memo in

1940. And, you know,

some people have said that this memo actually was sent to

the President, and some people said that the President never saw it. But

it's eight actions, an eight action plan that's

dedicated to countering the rising Japanese power over East Asia.

And it's basically a document on how we can get into

the Second World War, and that's provoking Japan to attack the

United States and get us involved. And so that memo is

what people say is the, you know, that's the thing that

the US Government not just knew about Pearl harbor or knew that we

were going to be attacked soon. They kind of wanted it to happen. So now

we get involved in the Second World War, and people don't want to think this

about Roosevelt because they have this idea of him. You know, they love

him because of welfare programs and because of the

New Deal and because he kind of is the liberal

ideal for a lot of people. And so

thinking that he did something as dastardly as getting us involved

in World War II on purpose kind of shatters their, you know, their image of

him. But I'm saying this is the ultimate New Deal, like World War II

got us out of the Great Depression, that as far as a

jobs creation program, World War II was a great, you know, that did

the trick. And I don't know,

obviously we don't know the truth, but even the author, Gore Vidal, I'm looking into

it, and even author Gore Vidal, he thinks that FDR knew in advance. He

talks about having lunch with Eleanor Roosevelt in 1962, and

he flat out asks her, you know, did FDR know about Pearl Harbor? And

she says, no, the plan was for the Japanese to attack our base in the

Philippines instead. Wow. What? Well, that's,

that's coming from Eleanor, says the plan was to attack our base. So they knew

something was coming. And when you talk about disinformation,

well, in 2011, it comes out that there's another

memo that came to the White House three days before the attack on Pearl harbor

that talks about Pearl harbor as one of the points

of attack that's absolutely coming with the Japanese. And so there's this other

26 page memo warning that an attack is

imminent. And, well, we didn't do anything about it. And three days later, Pearl

Harbor, a day after that, we declare war on Japan, which means we declare war

on their allies in Germany. And then that's it, we're in the

war. And so what comes out of that? Well, of

course, NPR has an article. December 6, 2016,

no, FDR did not know the Japanese were going to bomb Pearl Harbor.

And it uses its evidence as

a Roosevelt biographer saying that there's no way Roosevelt would have gone

for that. And the reasons why FDR didn't know about that. But it's

just as. It's just as he said. She said. Yeah, as,

as the other side of it. And here's the other thing that I, to me,

convinced me about this. And I know I'm getting into. But I've been reading about

this for the past couple of days, and I always thought that the idea that

FDR or the White House knew about Pearl Harbor, I always thought that was

ridiculous. You know, kind of like when somebody says, like,

911 was an inside job, man, you're like, that person's crazy,

right? You just kind of dismiss them. And that's how I felt about this

until I was looking into this. And even

Edward R. Murrow, who is considered the father of modern

journalism, Edward R. Murrow, he talks about he

had a meeting with Roosevelt the day of Pearl

Harbor. He actually was meeting with the president when it happened.

And he said, if I ever write that story,

it could pay for my kids to go to college. And so he

was implying that there was a whole bunch to Pearl harbor that we didn't know

about. And then he just, I mean, and well, then he died,

not mysteriously. He died of cancer. I mean, you could see him. He's. He's smoking

cigarette after cigarette and all. You know, every time he was on the news,

he's got a marble red in his mouth. So it's like there's no. He's like,

what, Worse smoker than Rad Sterling.

You know, so that the fact that he got. It's no surprise, the

fact that Edward R. Murrow died of lung cancer. I mean, that's the thing.

So all these people are saying, well, there's more to it than this,

so why would it be in the best interest of anybody in power

to, you know, to say that, no, Amelia Earhart, we had no idea she was

not captured by the Japanese. We definitely didn't know about it. We definitely didn't decode

the Japanese code. It's because it would imply

our culpability in the deaths of all those servicemen at Pearl Harbor. Right.

Because if you lied about Amelia because you didn't want to

compromise your intelligence, I mean, what else are you going to lie

about? And if you have that power to intercept those

messages, you would have had the power to know that Pearl

harbor was going to happen. You were going to have that foreign knowledge. And there's

books about it, too, written by people that

served, like the book by Robert Stinnett, who

was a veteran of World War II and a hero of World War II, and

he wrote a book called Day of the Truth about FDR and Pearl

Harbo. So these things are hard to face. But

here's the thing. We know that governments

lie. We know the machinations of power

are really, really a difficult thing.

Let's just say, I mean, we watch Game of Thrones. I understand. Yeah. I

mean, it's hard. You know, I wouldn't want to be the president

because of all the responsibility that you shoulder.

But, you know, we have to know that the government is

not always telling us the truth. And this has been

demonstrated time and time again in different

countries in our country that governments do this. But,

okay, Alex Jones. No, but I'm just saying. But

that is the thing that. That's what I'm referring to now, that marginalization.

You know, I am not Alex Jones. I'm just saying. I'm not even

saying this hypothesis about Amelia Earhart

and that hypothesis from this latest

documentary is valid. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying

is that we need to have the freedom to

question and to say, well, we know governments lie,

so they could have lied. In this case, we don't

know that, but we have to be open to the possibility without somebody saying,

you're a conspiracy crazy, because you don't. You don't toe the party

line. You're not just sucking

up whatever status quo message they're sending your way. Oh, no, you're

using critical thinking and questioning it. Well, then you must be crazy.

Especially in this era of alternative facts, we have to be

vigilant in the media messages

that we are consuming, and we need to think about those messages.

So this is a perfect test case, and we can't let it escape,

you know, the idea that it's news to see this picture put

out as proof. And, you know, rather than

the enormity of the evidence that was really presented, that's what we should be

concerned with. So the fact that just one single photo

is commanding so much attention is really bringing

light to the fact that we are not using our minds, we are not

critically thinking. We're just taking whatever the media is spitting out at us.

So one week they think it's valid, the next week somebody says

it's fake. And are we really analyzing that?

Is anybody saying, hey, Les Kinney, where exactly did you find that in

the National Archives? And then going and interviewing that Japanese

blogger and showing us what the whole travelog looks like

in its physical form or thinking about,

well, how vulnerable is that website where

that picture was found? Could that have been inserted? We

don't know is the point. All they had to do is put the

date to 1935. All they had to do was change the,

like change the description. You know, it doesn't say

1935 in the actual

picture. You know, it's not like she's holding up a newspaper that says, you know,

December 8th, 1935. Hey, check this out everybody.

What's that? It all it is is the description. So I mean, that could have

been changed. And that is, you know, that is a reach to say that, you

know, somebody would change the date of the photo in the Japanese

archive, you know, to discredit it. But the

fact is that this one particular thing being discredited is

now, is now the whole story instead of the rest of it. The

eyewitness testimony and the transmissions and the declassified

documents where somebody says, earhart, prisoner of the

Japanese, like a U.S. office of Naval Intelligence document that

says, that leads me to believe that there's someone

that for whatever reason doesn't want us to think that Amelia

Hart was captured by the Japanese. And we talked about this a little

bit with Jeff Belanger because we talked about the conspiracy theory behind that.

Nobody was killed at Sandy Hook. Right? That people didn't actually, you

know, the kids didn't actually die. Yeah. And you know, and

I know, I know people who really believe that nobody

died in Sandy Hook and that it was all just a gun control,

you know, that they did this so that all of a sudden the public opinion

would to be for gun control because it's part of the

new world order or whatever, that we don't have guns and can't defend ourselves.

Alright, here's the problem with that conspiracy theory is that

nothing happened. Like no gun laws were made, no gun control happened. So if you

say, if you say that it's a conspiracy theory, in the end, something actually has

to change in order for it to be successful, you know, but after

any of these shootings, none of our gun control laws have changed. You have to

worry about it. But what happened after Pearl harbor is that we did go to

war. So to me, if this was a conspiracy, it totally worked.

We got in World War II and people signed up for it. Our uncle lied

about his age so he could go fight Sooner. You know, 16 years

old, he signed, hell, yeah, I'm going to war.

And, you know, people did die. So that's the thing, to me,

makes it a little more. A little more believable to give disinformation

about it. Because unlike these other conspiracies

where there's no discernible outcome, here's a very discernible

outcome that happened that ended up also with the

explosion of atomic bombs over Japan. Right. And my question

is, are they leading us in

certain ways? I mean, we know that they want to lead us in certain ways.

And right now, I'm thinking of that movie, Wag

the Dog. Oh, yeah, yeah. You remember that one about

the ways that we are deceived or the ways that

we are routed to approving certain things?

You know, it is supposed to be a government for the people, by the people.

And is it. I mean,

we don't have a dictatorship, but is the media kind of

this tool that is cattle prodding us along?

That's something that we need to think about. Right? And also is the fact that

most of our media sources are owned by six different companies. Right. You

know, that. That really. I mean, I hate to sound like an Alex Jones kind

of conspiracy theorist. And when all the media sources are owned by six different companies,

you know, they're not going to let any of their media sources come

out that's going to be damaging to their companies. And

that can be. The thing is they have lobbying arms, they have

connections inside the government, and then people. I mean, they may not even have bad

intentions, but people do each other favors all the time. Right?

And we know this. I mean, we know how business works. We know how

politics works. We. We even know, you know,

like, in the ways that we move in the world that we

do conspire with people, that just means planning. I mean, that's not.

I mean, there's nothing evil in itself about

trying to work with people to get things done. It's just that

I think as a populace, we need

to realize that those things are going on behind the scenes.

And it's not any kind of big Alex Jones kind of thing.

It's just the way of the world. And we need to look at these

things more clearly and. And question.

Always question reality, question. This podcast. I mean, that's okay too.

We're not telling you to believe anything in particular. We're just telling you, hey,

think about it and don't fall for the old bait and switch. I mean, don't

fall for somebody saying, hey, look at this over here. Oh, no, no,

no. Now look at this over here. You know what, you need to stop and

you need to think before you're distracted by the media. And you can question

us and you can even ask us questions on Twitter at Otherside

Talk. That's right. That's a great place to question. The podcast is

at Otherside Talk on Twitter. But

I think what we really want people to do is to see the lizards, who

they for who they really are. Oh, now we're

going to the David Ike territory. The Reptilians are kind of.

We never met a conspiracy we didn't like. Well, I mean,

we don't believe it, but it sure is entertaining. Well, I tell

you what though, I mean, if you're looking at it

from the perspective of the government or even the perspective of

history, if a certain number of people have to die at Pearl harbor in order

for Hitler to be stopped, how many, you know, I think they take the

equation of how many lives does it save? You know, and that

just goes back into one of those hypotheticals. If you need to sacrifice a certain

amount of people so that millions more people can survive. I mean, that's what we

used at the end of World War II, isn't it? That's exact.

Chakaree Mike Chakare. That's right. The needs of the

many are greater than the needs of the few or the one, as Mr. Spock

would say. But the thing is, they said that,

you know, estimated a million US soldiers could die

if we had an attack on the Japanese mainland. If there was a ground

based troops into the Japanese mainland, they predicted a million

US soldiers would die. So instead they dropped the bomb, killed, you know,

100,000 people in a clip. These are horrible decisions that need to

be made in politics. Right? And you know, we're not

saying anybody's a lizard, you know, we're just saying that,

you know, these are difficult decisions. Except FDR was a lizard. That's why he wore

a blanket over his legs. Like, they said it was polio. They said it was

polio, but it was really just to cover up his tail. You are offending

like everybody right now. Would you love? Come on. That's your reason

for like, what, FDR's dead. Like, what's he going to say? The

only thing you know, but the fact is he wasn't. He

probably wasn't a lizard. It was Eleanor that was the lizard.

You could. Right. You can see it in your

eyes. You know, the. The fact. The fact is that,

you know, these are all people. We're all people. You know, I don't think

that these politicians are in league with Satan or anything like that,

but I do think, you know, the devil is in the details.

You know, when you have to do that bean counting from hell,

you know, you have to make those decisions based on the evils of, you

know, what's economically better or, you know, what's. What's better

in terms of accounting. You know, how many lines in this column and how

many lives in this column and how many lives in this column? I mean, it's

tough stuff that you have to deal with. Well, if you don't think everybody who's

in office is taking that serious, if. You don't think that politicians are in league

with Satan, you've obviously never had to buy health insurance from one of the exchanges,

so. Oh, man. Oh, we're touching on so

many political live wires today. That's right. We keep on. And

we intend to electrocute all of those live wires. Either way,

we want to poke that bear. We certainly do want to thank Dick Spink for

joining us, us and sharing some of his research with us. And

also we want to challenge you guys to use your brains

when you're listening to this. So just because Gizmodo one day

tells you that Amelia Earhart was captured by the Japanese and the

next week tells you that, nope, she wasn't captured by the Japanese. Read both

stories and try to pay attention for yourself. And don't just follow the

narrative that they tell you to follow, because

usually there's a reason they tell you to follow it. And sometimes it's benign, as

we just want you to buy our products, and sometimes they want to make you

believe things that aren't true to save their own hides. Right? So

consider all the evidence before you make your determination.

That's all we're saying here. And if that sounds crazy, well, I think we're

living in a crazy. Absolutely. But, you know, we

started this podcast by talking about somebody who was an inspiration

to people because she was a pioneer in aviation, and she was supposed

to be the first person to circumnavigate the globe in her plane with her

trusty navigator, Tom Noonan.

Noonan. But the thing is, she was

inspiring. And either way, I think the song this week represents

the fact that Amelia Earhart was the kind of person who liked to make decisions

for herself. And that was what this week's song is about. It's called

the Way I Fall.

These build ups always end up letting me

down

I wanted the himalay

I won't be part of the stripe

I wanted an answer rush and

over us that's a pride

When I stop looking for

what I thought was my dream

When I want for something more

the less is better more again

if I could save the world

it wouldn't matter at all

I only want to choose the way I

fall

Held up to a different light

false and anesthetized

hold up and fenced away you

seem my prying eyes

like science allergy

an exercise of my dollar tree

Flashbulbs and rolling tapes make me

better than all the other race

When I stop looking for

what I thought was my dream

When I want for something more

the less it better the more it please

if I could save the world

it wouldn't matter at all

I only want to choose the way I

fall the way

I bow

Cal must let me cross the face

but we will let us to this place

now

Sam

Looking for what I thought was my

dream When I

want for something more the less it

glitters the morning gleams When I

stop looking for what I thought was

my dream When I

want for something more the less

it's clearance the more it gleams

Goodbye could save the world

it wouldn't matter at all

I only want to choose the way I am

I only want to choose the way I am

I only want to choose the way I

fall the way

I fall.

Thank you for listening to today's episode. You can find us

online@othersidepodcast.com until next

time. See you on the other side. And here's what we

wish the disinformation people would tell you. You're supposed to go to

othersidepodcast.com donate that's the

one thing that I like. If they were actually the one truth.

Right. The conspiracy theory that we truly believe in is our

Patreon. So you can check that out. Othersidepodcast.com

donate and you can join us in one of our fun hangouts where we

talk about this stuff. Stuff like live on Google. Yes. Coming

up last week of the month. And we want to send a special shout out

to our Patreon Ned. Dr. Net is at the level where

he gets a mention every single week. So thank you Dr. Ned for your support.

Thank you to all of our wonderful Patreons for support, and

we'll see you on the other side. Thank you.

I was gonna say. Where. Where?

We're really. We're. We're really cooking here, guys. I was

gonna say. Did you say old, or did you say bald?