When Your Parents Won't Let Go

How do you honour difficult parents? What does biblical respect look like when your mum won't accept you're an adult, or your dad's choices have caused genuine hurt?

Jenny Mariner brings twelve years of teaching teenagers and raising two young children to this honest exploration of one of the Bible's most challenging commands. She unpacks the crucial difference between childhood obedience (temporary) and honour (permanent), offering practical wisdom for navigating complicated family dynamics with grace.

In this conversation, we explore:

• Why learning obedience as children shapes our entire lives
• The shift from obeying parents to honouring them as adults
• What honour actually looks like in practice
• Setting healthy boundaries without dishonoring parents
• Handling controlling, absent, or abusive parents
• Finding peace by accepting your parents' limits

[03:00] Why Childhood Obedience Actually Matters

Jenny shares a powerful story from her teaching years about a student who wouldn't obey anyone, constantly wandering corridors and disrupting others.

"This child is not learning how to function in society. That is what learning obedience when you are young is about - none of us get to do whatever we want all the time."

What we discover:

• God is a God of order, not chaos - Genesis shows this clearly
• No society has ever successfully run on anarchy
• Learning obedience helps us trust our parents, which helps us trust God
• Childhood is where we learn our place in society and relationships

Key takeaway: Obedience isn't about crushing personality - it's about learning that healthy societies need structure.

[08:00] The Critical Shift - Obedience to Honour

Jenny makes the crucial distinction many of us miss about what changes when we become adults.

"The overall key point in a nutshell is that obedience is important in childhood and honour remains a permanent obligation throughout our lives - whatever the dynamics in your family."

Understanding the difference:

• Exodus 20 says "honour" not "obey" your parents
• It's the only commandment with a promise attached - long life
• As adults, you're responsible for your own choices
• But honour doesn't end when childhood does

Key takeaway: You don't have to obey your parents as an adult, but you're still called to honour them.

[14:00] What Honour Actually Looks Like

Jenny gets practical about what honouring parents means in everyday life.

"Honouring in the Bible is about treating someone with proper respect and value. It's about saying, you are my parent. You birthed me, you raised me. You did your best, even if actually your best was inadequate."

Practical ways to honour:

• Speaking about them with care and respect
• Seeking their wisdom (without blind obedience)
• Regular communication - Jenny schedules specific days her mum sees the kids
• Using technology for distance relationships
• Providing emotional and practical support as they age

Key takeaway: Honour is active, not passive - it requires intentional choices about how we treat our parents.

[24:00] Healthy Boundaries Are Biblical

Jenny challenges the false idea that honouring means having no boundaries.

"Despite everything I've said about honour and communication and respect and care, it is okay, it's biblical to have healthy boundaries."

Real talk about boundaries:

• Genesis talks about leaving mother and father to become one with your spouse
• If parents are overbearing, boundaries protect your marriage
• Boundaries create space for healthier relationships
• In abusive situations, harsh boundaries are necessary and right

Key takeaway: Boundaries aren't dishonoring - they're about creating space for genuine relationship.

[32:00] Making Time as Adult Children

The conversation explores what honouring looks like when life gets busy.

"One of the things my mum has said to me is like, you are always in such a rush to have time to hear me. I've tried to be really intentional - actually I value her and I want her to know that."

Practical wisdom:

• Don't let busyness create long gaps between contact
• Slow down enough to genuinely listen
• Your parents aren't just there when you need them
• Intentional time matters more than perfect visits

Key takeaway: Honouring parents includes actually making time for them, not just fitting them in when convenient.

[45:00] When Parents Are Difficult But Not Abusive

A comment raised the common scenario: constantly critical, boundary-crossing parents who drain you emotionally.

Matt Edmundson responded:

"Honour doesn't mean unlimited access to you or letting someone repeatedly hurt you. I think sometimes honouring is actually establishing really good boundaries and sticking with them."

Jenny added from experience:

• The more you deal with your own stuff through therapy and friends, the better you navigate it
• You might need strict boundaries in one season
• Accessing your own healing helps you handle similar situations better over time
• Remember that hurt people hurt others

Key takeaway: Your own healing journey directly impacts your ability to maintain healthy boundaries with grace.

[48:00] Honouring Abusive Parents

Jenny was unequivocal about keeping yourself safe.

"You definitely have to keep yourself safe. There isn't anything that would suggest otherwise in scripture. Worst case scenario would be no contact at all."

Difficult truths:

• Safety always comes first
• No contact might be necessary and that's okay
• Even then, consider what small honour might look like
• Think carefully about where you share your story
• Forgiveness doesn't mean letting people off the hook

Matt added crucial perspective about reporting abuse - it needs to stop, not just for you but potentially for others.

Key takeaway: Honouring doesn't mean exposing yourself to ongoing harm. Sometimes the boundary has to be absolute.

[53:00] Absent Parents and Forgiveness

Jenny shared about a friend whose father disappeared for twenty years then reappeared.

"It was interesting that he had just done enough forgiving that he was able to handle his dad reappearing on the scene. He'd done the business to deal with that rather than just sitting in the resentment."

Hope for absence:

• Processing pain doesn't contradict honouring parents
• Hold both truths in tension
• What does honour look like? It might not be very much
• Ask God what he's leading you to do specifically

Key takeaway: It's okay if honouring an absent parent doesn't look like much - but forgiveness work matters regardless.

[57:00] When Becoming a Parent Changes Everything

Matt and Dan both reflected on how their perspective shifted dramatically.

Matt shared:

"I didn't really understand what mum and dad went through as parents until I became a parent. I was a lot more empathetic to some of the situations they faced. My respect and my admiration for my parents grew when I became a parent myself."

Dan agreed:

"You think before you're a parent that you are tired, that you have lots of things to do. And then you become a parent, you go, 'No, I wasn't tired and I had nothing to do.' It's that stark."

Key takeaway: Parenting gives you empathy for what your parents faced that you simply couldn't understand before.

Finding Peace in Accepting Limits

Jenny's most powerful moment came when she talked about her sister desperately wanting their parents to change.

"I have learned some peace, which I feel is God-given peace from accepting my parents' limits. They're not beyond change, but it's unlikely. I can have more peace if I say, 'This is how they currently are. How do I honour and respect them? What are the healthy boundaries? What can I do within the current scenario rather than rallying against it to change all the time?'"

This isn't giving up - it's finding peace in reality rather than constant frustration.

Hello and welcome to Crowd Church, coming to you live

2

from Liverpool this Sunday night.

3

My name is Matt Edmundson, and whether

this is your first time or whether

4

you've been part of our journey since the

beginning, it's brilliant to be with you.

5

We are a community of people figuring

out what it means to follow Jesus in

6

real life, not the polished, perfect

version, but you know, the messy,

7

genuine, brilliant reality of this

whole thing called Christianity.

8

So let me give you a little

roadmap of what's gonna be

9

happening over the next hour.

10

We'll have a talk last about 20 minutes

looking at the topic of relationships,

11

which is the section of our series

becoming whole, that we are looking

12

at exploring how Christ makes us

whole across every domain of life.

13

After the talk, we've

got conversation Streets.

14

Oh, yes.

15

This is where we dig into what

you've just heard, and you get

16

to be part of that discussion.

17

So if you're with us live, jump into

the comments, share your questions,

18

your thoughts, and your stories.

19

And of course, if you are watching on

Catchup or listening to the podcast, then

20

thanks for being part of the Crowd too.

21

Right?

22

Let's meet your hosts

and let's get started.

23

Well, good evening.

24

Welcome to Crowd Church.

25

Great to be with you online this evening,

wherever you are watching in the world.

26

My name's Matt.

27

It's good to be with you.

28

Uh, yes, that was me in the video clip

before wearing the Goon is t-shirt.

29

Um, and obviously the, I'm wearing

a different outfit now, but anyways,

30

good to be with you, uh, on this very

cold, wet evening here in Liverpool.

31

Beside me is the very talented and

beautiful man, which is Dan Orange.

32

Good evening.

33

Dan Orange: How are you doing?

34

Good.

35

Yeah.

36

Good.

37

Yeah.

38

You sure?

39

I'm, it is grim, but it's nice.

40

It's nice in here.

41

Yeah, it is.

42

Very, very nice.

43

Nice and warm.

44

Mm-hmm.

45

Matt Edmundson: Now it's

great to be with you.

46

Uh, let us know in the comments

where you're watching from.

47

Do say hi.

48

It's always nice to connect

with people in the comments if

49

you're watching live on YouTube.

50

Uh, but this evening we are talking

about honoring your parents.

51

This most bizarre of biblical

commands, um, which is loaded

52

with meaning, isn't it?

53

On ideology that we're

gonna get into tonight.

54

What does it mean?

55

What does it look like?

56

Why should I actually care?

57

Uh, and to kick us into the conversation,

uh, on my left, the beautiful.

58

Uh, Jen Mariner is here.

59

She's gonna be doing the talk.

60

Um, but yeah, uh, lemme just

quickly check the comments actually,

61

'cause you are not doing anything.

62

I'll do it.

63

God, you can do everything.

64

Matt.

65

I'll just sit here.

66

Look at you.

67

You're just the eye candy.

68

Yeah.

69

Is that

70

Dan Orange: right?

71

Matt Edmundson: Uh, warm.

72

Welcome to you.

73

Uh, hey Heather.

74

Uh, great to, uh, thanks for commenting.

75

Uh, don't let Heather comment

alone, just join, join in with us.

76

Um, but I'll be in there

while Jen is talking.

77

Any questions, any thoughts,

write them down in the comments.

78

Um, because after the talk, like I

said in the intro talk, we've got

79

Conversation Street, uh, where we're

gonna get into those questions.

80

And after Conversation Street, for those

of you who like to stick around, we're

81

going to open up the Google Meet room.

82

Um, the URL Zoe is gonna put in

the comments, uh, at some point,

83

uh, in the next few seconds.

84

Um, but that is go

Crowd Church slash meat.

85

MEET.

86

Uh, so do not meat?

87

No, no, it's not barbecue.

88

See, you just have to spell it, don't you?

89

It's, uh, but it is what it is.

90

Uh, but yeah, come join

us in the Google Meet.

91

It'd be great to see you.

92

Great to say.

93

How's it great to put a face to a name?

94

Uh, so that's gonna

happen towards the end.

95

But without further ado, let's hand

over to the amazing Jenny Mariner.

96

Jenny, over to you.

97

Jenny Mariner: Good evening.

98

It is an absolute pleasure

to be here with you.

99

Um, I have been here Crowd a few

times, but if you don't know me,

100

my name's Jenny, and I'm one of the

leaders here at Frontline Church

101

where Crowd is based in Liverpool.

102

And it's always an absolute pleasure

to be with you and as Matt said.

103

We are talking about honoring your

parents about Biblical childhood as

104

part of the, uh, series that we've been

doing here at Crowd about Relationships.

105

And there are two key verses

that we're looking at today.

106

If you take notes at all,

I wanna look them up.

107

The first is from Ephesians six.

108

It says, children obey your parents

in the Lord for this is right.

109

And the second key verse we're gonna be

looking at is from the 10 Commandments.

110

Matt's already referenced it.

111

It's Exodus 20, and it says, honor

your father and mother so that

112

you may live long in the land.

113

The Lord your God is giving you.

114

So the overall key point I'm gonna make

talking a nutshell is that obedience is

115

important in childhood and honor remains a

permanent obligation throughout our lives.

116

And that is whatever the dynamics

in your family, family dynamics

117

are difficult, aren't they?

118

And relationships can be difficult.

119

But we are called to honor our parents

throughout the lives of our parents.

120

So we're gonna look, um, at three areas.

121

We're gonna look at biblical childhood,

we're gonna look at what it means

122

to honor your parents as an adult.

123

And then we're gonna have a little

look at the end, at a couple of kind of

124

modern dimensions and dynamics to that.

125

So starting with biblical childhood,

as we just looked, the verse in

126

Ephesians, it says, children obey your

parents in the Lord for that is right.

127

And that angle is consistent

throughout scripture.

128

You know, one of the things, um, LOHs.

129

People advise about scriptures, you

know, what does it say at various

130

different points in the Bible?

131

Does it change?

132

Is there nuance you need to wrestle with?

133

Not really.

134

There is nowhere in the Bible that

says children do what you want.

135

It's consistent.

136

This thing of honor your parents

and teaching a child to obey is

137

an interesting thing, isn't it?

138

I don't know how many of you have children

or are close up to parenting in any way.

139

I have two children that are both under

the age of 10, and so we're, you know, we

140

are teaching obedience, but it's funny, in

this day and age, people talk about, well.

141

How is your child feeling?

142

Is your child neurodiverse?

143

What do they want to do?

144

What's their personality?

145

And even like the debate as to

whether or not you should teach

146

your child to obey is quite an

interesting one in this day and age.

147

To be honest, as a parent

I wasn't really expecting.

148

And those are legitimate considerations.

149

You know, we do need to know our children.

150

That's really important.

151

But childhood is the time where we

learn obedience and it's part of

152

learning our sense of place within

our family and within our society.

153

I spent 12 years as a secondary

school teacher in a boy's secondary

154

school in Liverpool, and there's

one kid that particularly.

155

Just sticks in my mind who just did

whatever he wanted, which means he

156

spent very little time in the classroom.

157

He spent a lot of time

wandering around the school.

158

You know, he'd shout through doorways,

he'd nick things off people, you

159

know, he was constantly supposed

to be in an internal exclusion,

160

but he wouldn't go there either.

161

I can't remember why we

didn't just expel him.

162

There was a complicated backstory, but

I remember thinking like, this child is

163

not learning how to function in society.

164

That is what learning obedience when

you are young is about, you know,

165

none of us get to do whatever we

want all the time, actually, do we?

166

I did ask chat, GBT, has any

society ever run with anarchy?

167

You know, anarchy being like, we're

literally, there's no government,

168

there's no structure, there's no society.

169

You do what you want.

170

It has never worked

apparently, according to.

171

That search that apparently, you

know, it's been like a couple of

172

little, you know, a year in northern

Spain, there was a little community

173

that was an anarchist community.

174

But at the end of the day, you need

structure, you need leadership,

175

you need some kind of organization.

176

It's always needed.

177

The Bible teaches us that God

created us in all our uniqueness,

178

and yet God is a God of order.

179

You read Genesis one and two, and actually

the chaos of the waters, God pushes the

180

chaos back as he creates the land and

creates all of the rest of creation that's

181

seen as a positive thing in that story.

182

And then humans, the role in

that story is that humans rule

183

over the rest of creation.

184

There is order.

185

And so part of childhood, we are,

we learn, we obey our parents

186

because it's God's command and it

is teaching us about obedience.

187

It gives us that social stability,

as I've already said, that reflecting

188

of God's divine design, sorry,

tripping over my words there.

189

Divine design.

190

Um, we can't have anarchy.

191

We need to obey if we wanna function,

if we wanna play our part in society.

192

It's also about our spiritual development.

193

When we are, um, children, we learn

to that we can trust our parents.

194

Most of us, not all of

us, but most of us learn.

195

We can trust our parents,

and that helps us in terms of

196

learning about trusting God.

197

When I came to Crowd in February, I did

a couple of talks about, um, obedience

198

and desire again in Genesis about how

Adam and Eve wanted the fruit, but

199

God told them they couldn't have it.

200

And there's something about learning

to trust and obey God, even when we

201

don't really understand his instruction.

202

That is really important

and we're starting to learn

203

that by obeying our parents.

204

So it's about social stability,

it's spiritual development,

205

and it's character formation.

206

Learning to submit to legitimate authority

that dying to self, that humbling.

207

You know, when I was younger,

I'll be honest, I didn't really

208

like the idea of respect.

209

It's a very out of fashion word, isn't it?

210

And I was that narky teenager that once

I became a secondary school teacher,

211

I was like, oh, I really would not

have liked me and I did not like.

212

I'm not saying he doesn't believe me,

but honestly I did not like respecting

213

teachers until they'd earned my respect.

214

And you hear that quite a

lot in this day and age.

215

Well, I'm not respecting someone

they need to earn my respect.

216

But actually again, it doesn't work

like that beyond a point in, um, in

217

one Peter two, Peter actually says,

show proper respect to everyone.

218

Love the family of believers.

219

Fear God, honor the emperor.

220

You know, there's a sense of order.

221

You can't just be rude to someone

until they've earned your respect.

222

And yeah, okay, you don't have

to obey someone who's asking

223

you to do something terrible.

224

But that sense of having respect

for people in society, government

225

teachers, healthcare workers,

it helps us form our character.

226

It helps us learn.

227

It's not just about us and it

helps us know where we fit.

228

And it all starts in childhood with

that relationship with our parents.

229

We learn that obedience, you know,

good parents teach us about respect.

230

And, and it's all forming our

character and helping us to function.

231

In Colossians three, verse 20, it

emphasizes this again, it says,

232

children obey your parents in

everything because it pleases the Lord.

233

That's pretty comprehensive, and

it shows us that this is something

234

fundamental that we need to learn.

235

Now, of course, as I've already kind

of hinted at, there are limits to this.

236

Sometimes you don't obey your parents

or anybody that's asking you to break

237

the law, or certainly no one that's

asking you to go against God's will, but

238

that isn't the case most of the time.

239

Is it?

240

Those exceptions are not the case.

241

Most of the time.

242

You know, with my kids, I

said, they're both under 10.

243

I'm at that stage of really needing them

to learn, like, yeah, okay, there might

244

be a bit of a conversation about this, but

ultimately you need to respect me as your

245

parent and you need to obey what I say.

246

I have the final decision,

so that childhood obedience.

247

Biblical and is actually really

important in terms of how we

248

grow and how we function well.

249

But then as we become older

adolescents and become adults, we

250

need to figure out how we relate to

our parents as an adult, don't we?

251

You get that sense, Don.

252

If you've heard people talk about you

in an adult child relationship, an adult

253

adult relationship, we have to transition

into relating to our parents as adults.

254

And I'm gonna bring us back to that

verse from Exodus 20 that says,

255

honor your father and mother so

that you may live long in the land,

256

the Lord your God is giving you.

257

That doesn't say only until you're

18 or only until you're grown up.

258

That is ongoing.

259

Proverbs 23, it says, listen to

your father who gave you life

260

and do not despise your mother

when she is, when she is old.

261

So those ideas of honoring and

listening are not the same as obeying.

262

And so we need to grow in developing

that sense of honoring even when

263

we are past needing to obey.

264

And it's interesting to note in

Ephesians six, it says, honor your

265

parents in the Lord for this is right.

266

And then it goes on.

267

It says, honor your father and mother,

which is the first commandment with a

268

promise so that it may go well with you

and you may enjoy long life on the earth.

269

God is really making his point.

270

He makes it in Exodus.

271

He makes it when it's

quoted again in Ephesians.

272

He's making a point.

273

This comes with a promise.

274

If you honor your parents, you may

receive long life on the earth.

275

This is really important.

276

Knowing your place, honoring

your family is important to God.

277

It comes with this blessing.

278

So for all of us, there's something

we need to wrestle with here.

279

Whatever your circumstances.

280

You know, we can't stay like children.

281

We've all seen that, haven't we?

282

The adult child who's still a child

and you know, maybe it's mum that

283

still dominates what's going on.

284

I mean, it's not a great look

even when you're single, is it?

285

Let's be honest, we've all seen that like

25-year-old man, that's still a child.

286

But it really isn't good

when you get married.

287

Like you can't still have your

parents parenting when you get

288

married or you know, it's bad.

289

You just kind of slot into treating

your spouse like your parent.

290

'cause you haven't learned

to function like an adult.

291

So you need to figure that out.

292

But equally, you don't want

the overbearing parent do you?

293

Who just won't give the child any space.

294

I mean, you get this a bit in the

west I think, but you also get this,

295

you know, I've seen this in like

comedy sketches from other cultures.

296

The like overbearing parent who

still thinks they're in charge and

297

we've gotta wrestle, haven't we?

298

With how do you become an independent

adult while honoring your parents?

299

You know, I said you get this

in comedy sketches, but I think.

300

We, there's also a lot we can

learn from other cultures.

301

I think there are many other

cultures that are better at this

302

than we are here in the west.

303

Or another option is to throw your parents

off entirely and say, I'm an adult now.

304

It's all about me.

305

You can't harm me back.

306

You have no wisdom.

307

I'm gonna do what I wanna do.

308

You know, that's probably

where I was when I was 18.

309

My parents, they're both still alive

and I wanna honor them, so I don't

310

wanna share too much about what my

childhood was like growing up, but

311

my parents made a number of decisions

and had stuff going on for them that.

312

I didn't think was great, and

they got divorced when I was 18.

313

And my emotional kind of response

for that was to be like, well,

314

I want nothing to do with you.

315

And, well, not in the sense

that like I, I loved them.

316

I spent time with them.

317

I didn't cut off my relationship

with them, but I didn't honor them.

318

I didn't respect them.

319

I didn't think they had a single

thing to say that was of any use.

320

And I know that God has taken me

on a journey around honoring them

321

because they are my parents now.

322

I don't have to agree

with everything they said.

323

I don't have to obey them.

324

I don't have to look back on what

happened and think that they were

325

right, but I can still honor them.

326

Honoring the Bible is about treating

someone with proper respect and value.

327

It's about saying, you are my parent.

328

You birthed me, you raised me.

329

You did your best, even if

actually your best was inadequate.

330

I dunno if there's anyone else

who has to wrestle with that.

331

You know, even parents that have children

taken away from them in really bad

332

circumstances have often done their best.

333

So how do you wrestle

with honoring a parent?

334

'cause they're your parent and treating

them with respect, even if there

335

is pain that you need to unpack and

things that you need to deal with.

336

Honoring parents includes things like.

337

Verbally talking about them

with respect as just saying,

338

treating them with dignity.

339

Even if, you know, I think lots of

us with our parents will have things

340

we disagree with, things that we have

to forgive, things we've had ended

341

up talking to a counselor about.

342

But you can still treat them with respect.

343

You can be careful about how you talk

about them, where you talk about them

344

and honoring them for who they are.

345

You can seek wisdom from them and

show them value by doing that.

346

You know, you don't, you don't need

to obey them anymore as an adult,

347

but can you ask their opinion?

348

Can you include them in what you're doing?

349

You know, except for those extreme

circumstances, most of us have areas

350

where our parents will have wisdom

that they can give us, and it honors

351

them to give them the time and space

to do that instead of rejecting them.

352

And again, like I said, I went

through that season of rejecting them.

353

But there is something about learning,

okay, when can I ask their opinion?

354

When can they speak into my life?

355

When is there something valuable

that they've got to say?

356

It's about regular communication and you

know, in our world that can look very

357

different depending on our circumstances.

358

Life can be quite busy or it might

be really busy for you and it's

359

actually really quiet for your

parents and, and being aware of that.

360

You know, my mum moved to Liverpool.

361

She wanted to be closer to us.

362

As I mentioned, she's on her own

and that means that we get to

363

see her regularly if we want to.

364

But when she moved, I was really aware.

365

I was like, we might not see her.

366

Like life is really busy.

367

If we don't make a plan,

then we won't see her.

368

So one day a week she picks the

kids up from school and a different

369

day a week she comes for tea.

370

So we've got those two touch points

just like built into our rhythm or, um.

371

My husband's family, they all live at a

distance, and routines and diaries don't

372

line up very well for like regular phone

calls, but we try and use technology.

373

We try and send videos and

messages and we try and make sure

374

that we book seeing each other.

375

And again, you know, sometimes you can

be like, oh, this is just inconvenient,

376

but actually she's our family.

377

She's my husband's mother.

378

We want to prioritize seeing her

as part of honoring and part of

379

that communication with parents.

380

So it's speaking about them with respect,

seeking wisdom, communicating well,

381

and then sometimes it's about emotional

and practical support as parents age.

382

In one Timothy five it says, if anyone

does not provide for his relatives

383

and especially for members of his

household, he has denied the faith

384

and is worse than an unbeliever.

385

That is pretty harsh, isn't it?

386

But you can see that sense of consistency

in all the verses we've looked at,

387

that God is saying something about

family and how it really matters.

388

Similar to God, talking about honoring

your parents leading into long, long life.

389

There is something that God wants

us to really think about here.

390

You know, even when Jesus was dying

on the cross, John 19 talks about

391

him on, you know, he's literally on

the cross and he looks at John and

392

he says, take care of my mother.

393

And I think again, in Western cultures,

this is something we really need to think

394

about and mul on God's wisdom, I am.

395

One of the things I quite like is

watching like real life documentaries.

396

My husband does not like this kind of

thing at all, so I watch them on my own.

397

But I like that one, the

ambulance one on B, B, C, right?

398

And all the paramedics doing

this amazing stuff that I just

399

couldn't even imagine doing.

400

But it actually really breaks my

heart watching that show how much time

401

paramedics spend with old, isolated

people doing things that are actually

402

really simple, that you don't need a

paramedic and an ambulance going to.

403

But that old person has dialed 9, 9,

9 because they've got nobody else.

404

And you know, I've watched this show

enough times that I've thought I

405

do not want that to be my parents.

406

That's not what I want for them.

407

And I do joke with my parents 'cause

they're both alive and like I said,

408

they got divorced, that I'm gonna need

like a house with a granny annex on

409

one side and a granny annex on the

other side and they can like come in

410

and not meet each other, you know?

411

But like, you know, you gotta

take these things seriously.

412

You know, we need to consider

our responsibilities for

413

our parents as they age.

414

We're not responsible for them.

415

And you know, sometimes we need to allow

medical professionals to take over,

416

but I think in the West we still do

need to wrestle with that, communicate

417

that question of how do we include

them, how do we communicate with them?

418

How do we honor them even as they age

and they're less able to function?

419

My mom always talks about

the seven stages of life.

420

She says that stage four is in the

middle and like your whole body

421

works and you can do everything.

422

But she talks about how you start

unable to care for yourself and

423

potentially you might end life

unable to care for yourself.

424

It like mirrors.

425

You know, the Bible teaches us that our

worth and our value does not change.

426

We have value as a baby unable to

feed ourselves and we have value

427

if we live till a 90-year-old

that is unable to feed ourselves.

428

Even when we are less able to offer

support to others, less able to

429

give back to society, we have value.

430

So how do we relate to our

parents in those seasons?

431

We honor them for who they have been,

even when they're a shadow of that person.

432

And again, I think this is a

challenge for us, that is part

433

of our spiritual formation.

434

Those seasons of caring for someone

else are often really difficult.

435

They're really like dying

to self times when the Holy

436

Spirit meets us and shapes us.

437

Jesus muddled laying down his life

for us, and that's part of how

438

we are formed into his likeness.

439

So, you know, I don't have

all the answers on this one.

440

I haven't walked that yet.

441

My parents are not at that stage.

442

I have watched others do it

and seen it's complicated.

443

But I know that the bi, the Bible

model something to us that is still

444

relevant about what does it look

like to engage with these questions.

445

What does it look like to honor and

care for our parents in these seasons

446

and not just ignore them when they've

become difficult or inconvenient?

447

And I would say a word to parents

here on this one too, I'm learning as

448

I grow older that we never feel old.

449

So any parents watching this or

you know, bear in mind, engage

450

with your children if they try and

have this conversation with you.

451

You know, if they wanna talk about

things like how can they help you?

452

Is your home still suitable for you?

453

Are you in a community

or risk of isolation?

454

The number of people I know who are

like, actually my elderly parent

455

won't have this conversation.

456

Like, let's help each other out

and have these conversations.

457

Finally, as I draw to a close, I wanna

touch on a couple of modern dynamics here.

458

And the first is that despite everything

I've said about honor and communication

459

and respect and care, it is okay, it's

biblical to have healthy boundaries.

460

So particularly once you get married

and start a family, Genesis does talk

461

about you leaving your mother and father

and being one flesh with your partner.

462

So as we've already said, you know,

if your parents are overbearing, it is

463

okay to put a boundary up and say, I

honor you, I respect you, I listen to

464

you, but I'm making the decision that

is right for my family and my partner.

465

Your parents mustn't come between.

466

And same in terms of the time

you spend with your parents.

467

The money you spend with

your parent on your parents.

468

It's not for your own family to suffer,

but you can put up boundaries as well.

469

If you have been in a situation

that's been harmful or abusive,

470

which is a reality, isn't it?

471

You, you need to manage those risks while

finding a way to still under your parents.

472

That's okay to do that.

473

And the last thing I wanna mention

is that we don't all live in an

474

ancient near Eastern culture where

our parents are probably in our

475

tent or in the ne tent next to us.

476

We are dealing with complexities

of the 21st century, aren't we?

477

They, our parents might be at a

distance or they might have really

478

complicated health issues that just

wouldn't have been a thing in the past.

479

And it is okay to look

for creative solutions.

480

I've already talked about, um, you

know, using videos and messages to

481

keep in touch with my mother-in-law.

482

You know, there might be church

community that need to help you

483

out, but the principle is the same.

484

What does it look like to honor

your parents wherever they are?

485

Whatever's going on.

486

We can apply all these

principles in the 21st century.

487

So in conclusion, I'm

coming into land now.

488

The biblical role of being a child

is about obedience, which is really

489

important 'cause it shapes all kinds

of things for our adult life and

490

helps us function well in society.

491

But the instruction to honor

doesn't end when you're a child.

492

It continues on into adulthood, and it's

part of training us in all kinds of areas.

493

It teaches us, teaches us spiritual

maturity and kingdom values, develops

494

our character, helps us build community.

495

It reflects God's divine order and

it helps provide practical C care.

496

So the teaching from such a long time ago

is still absolutely as relevant now as it

497

was then that we honor our parents in our

childhood, we obey them, and we are formed

498

as we continue to honor and engage with

our parents for the whole of their lives.

499

That's part of God's eternal

purposes for, for his people.

500

Amen.

501

So, I am gonna hand back

over now to Matt and to Dan.

502

Matt Edmundson: Uh,

don't go anywhere though.

503

Jenny Mariner: I'm not going anywhere.

504

Matt Edmundson: That's

the important thing.

505

Uh, great.

506

Welcome to Conversation Street.

507

So, uh, what stood out

to you about Jen's talk?

508

Um, write that in the comments.

509

Um, and we're gonna

start digging into this.

510

So, uh, Heather opened it up.

511

Uh, I like this.

512

Um.

513

She said I'll start the ball rolling

with something a bit controversial.

514

So I thought we'll just jump straight in.

515

Jen, uh, I believe society has

swung too far in the reverence of

516

youth and boundaries and respect

for elders is no longer a thing.

517

Discuss.

518

I'm quite curious to know

what you think about that.

519

Zoe.

520

Actually, my daughter is here,

uh, just to put out which Zoe's

521

working, the tech, my daughter.

522

And she's like, what are we doing tonight?

523

And I said, oh, Jen's talking

about honoring parents.

524

She's like, oh, that's

why you want me to come.

525

Um, so I'm, I'm kind of

curious, uh, agree or disagree.

526

Jenny Mariner: Yeah, I mean, I could be

wrong, but I don't think that's gonna

527

be that controversial in this room.

528

I mean, that's probably what I

meant with myself, that like, as

529

a teenager and a young adult, I

wasn't terribly respectful of.

530

Others in authority older than me.

531

I do think it's a thing that can be

liberating for young people, almost

532

that naivety of thinking that you

know better, it can release kind of

533

all kinds of, um, what's the word?

534

Like creativity and

all that kind of stuff.

535

But I don't think you're gonna get That's

that controversial in this room, the fact

536

that we shouldn't write off the value

of older people what they can bring.

537

Dan Orange: Yeah, there's, I think it

all often gets into the argument that,

538

well, life is very, very different now.

539

Um, so therefore you don't

know anything about the past.

540

But when you were, when you were talking,

I was looking what, what the Bible

541

says sort of about the, the word honor.

542

And it apparently, it's

literally means heavy.

543

It's like weighted.

544

And I thought that's really

good that it, we should.

545

We should look, look and

listen to our parents.

546

Yeah.

547

When, and weigh it.

548

Like it's a weighty thing.

549

They've, they've, they might

not have had tech, but they

550

still had life, you know, years.

551

Yeah.

552

Just, just experiences.

553

Yeah.

554

It is, is amazing, isn't it?

555

And we, you can throw the baby

out with the bath water so easily.

556

Matt Edmundson: That's a

really important point.

557

I, I, when I was a teenager, I

appreciate, that was a long time ago.

558

Uh, for Matt, Crew says it.

559

Um, but when I was a teenager,

um, it was the same argument.

560

Yeah, right.

561

It was the same argument.

562

The the, the adults were saying, oh, you

youth, you don't, the youth are today.

563

You dunno what you're doing.

564

Um, and we're like, oh, what do you know?

565

Generation just has got a

clue about modern worlds.

566

And so it doesn't surprise me that

the next generation's saying it.

567

So I, I remember I was sat

in Ben's, Ben's a, a local

568

hairdresser and I was sat at Ben's.

569

And Ben was talking, telling a

story, um, about one of his kids.

570

And I just looked at Ben and I

said, Ben, why are you surprised?

571

Like his son's like 18, 19 years old.

572

And I'm like, when you were

18, 19 years old, did you

573

feel like you knew everything?

574

And he's like, yeah.

575

And I'm like, but somehow magically

that's gonna just, that's just not gonna,

576

you know, affect your kids in any way.

577

Yeah.

578

Fair play.

579

So I think, I, I don't like you.

580

I, I dunno if it's controversial

to say, uh, Heather, I do think

581

it is a repeated pattern though.

582

Um, and the respect for elders.

583

I, I remember hearing that

all the time when I was a kid.

584

You know, respect your elders

'cause you don't do it.

585

Jenny Mariner: I wonder if

maybe the slightly interesting

586

thing is almost more like.

587

Society's more accepting of it

now than it ever used to be.

588

Mm-hmm.

589

So I don't know if young people are

getting told as much as they were,

590

like, actually the older people might

have something useful to say into this.

591

Mm-hmm.

592

I think in terms of, I can't remember

the words you said, Heather quite used,

593

I don't have it, but almost the, that

sense of, um, young people being the

594

best rather than we've all got our place.

595

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

596

You know, there's a bit of that going on,

which I just don't think is that healthy.

597

Matt Edmundson: Mm.

598

Young people rule.

599

It's an interest.

600

No, but it is true, isn't it?

601

And I think

602

I, I, I, I quite like the

arguments either way, you know?

603

And I, and I, and I, you know, do

not let anyone despise you because of

604

your youth, is what the Bible says.

605

And I think, but there is this thing

about respecting, like when I was a kid.

606

I remember getting a clip round the ear.

607

It's a good old British saying, isn't it?

608

Mm-hmm.

609

A clip round the ear from a

policeman for riding my bike the

610

wrong way down a one way road.

611

Do you know what scared

me more about that?

612

Was telling my mum, because if my

mum found out that a policeman, a

613

clip around the ear, I, I would have

got another clip around the ear.

614

I would've got grounded.

615

All kinds of bad things would've happened.

616

Um, I think probably the shift

that I see in society now is if the

617

policeman gives you a clip around

the ear, the policeman's in trouble.

618

Right.

619

Yeah.

620

And I, I, I wonder if that maybe

has gone too far the other way.

621

I don't know.

622

It's a bit political maybe.

623

Um, so let me bring it back.

624

Um.

625

To honoring your parents, what advice

would the parents here give to those like

626

me who are adults, but are the kids in

this scenario in terms of what they can,

627

what can they do to honor their parents?

628

So what, I mean, you've

touched on this a little bit.

629

Um, Jen, like, uh, adult kids

honoring their parents looks different

630

to obedient kids, doesn't it?

631

Jenny Mariner: Yeah.

632

So I think, like we were saying,

there's still that thing of are

633

you still listening to them?

634

Are you giving them time?

635

You know, one of the things my mum has

said to me is like, you are always in

636

such a rush to have time to hear me.

637

And actually letting her know, I think

I do better than that, than I used

638

to because I've tried to be really

intentional and be like, actually I

639

value her and I want her to know that.

640

So if it costs a little bit for

me to slow down a little bit to

641

listen to her, then that's okay.

642

I think, um, if.

643

As you said, making time for them,

you know, not just allowing it

644

to be a really long time Yeah.

645

Since you last spoke to them, because

actually your life is really busy.

646

Yeah.

647

You know, trying to make sure that you

see them and there, you know, there

648

are all those things that we can do

before, you know, we also talked about

649

when your parents need you, kind of

physically maybe, but before you get

650

to that stage when you're just living

your adult life, it's remembering that

651

your parents are still there and they're

not just there when you need them.

652

Yeah.

653

But actually it's just nice and kind

to keep a good relationship with them.

654

Yeah.

655

Maybe they need you.

656

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

657

Text them, call 'em.

658

What do do with your parents?

659

'cause your parents

660

Dan Orange: are Liverpool based, are they?

661

No.

662

No.

663

So they, they live about two hours away,

but they're actually, um, they're actually

664

moving back to Liverpool for Yeah.

665

For the reason that they realize they're

getting, they're getting a bit older.

666

Um.

667

We, we need them in different ways.

668

We've got kids, it's great if

they can be around more, but then

669

also if they, if they get ill,

um, it's a long way, um, for them.

670

So it is great to have parents that

have actually thought, you know,

671

thought about that as, as well.

672

Yeah.

673

Matt Edmundson: Have you had either

of you the difficult conversation

674

with your parents, which is in the

event of your death or in the event

675

of, um, you becoming, uh, quite ill?

676

Um, what do we wanna do?

677

Or is it like when that happens

we'll wing it kind of a thing?

678

Jenny Mariner: Do you, do you

mean more when you get quite ill?

679

'cause you said in the

event of death that that's

680

Matt Edmundson: like Yeah.

681

I mean, you know, I think about my

parents, uh, and Sharon's parents,

682

it's like obviously they're aging.

683

At some point they will

go to meet their maker.

684

Mm-hmm.

685

Um, uh, hopefully it's not too soon.

686

Uh, or you know, what happens?

687

Um, like in, in the comments,

uh, and Dan, I mean obviously you

688

can talk to this because I think

you've had a recent case of this.

689

Yeah.

690

Uh, my mum has, uh, Alzheimer's

and we now have moved into a

691

very different set of roles.

692

Um, it's hard to take on the role of carer

from someone who always looked after me.

693

Neither us, neither of us

are comfortable with it.

694

And this comes to that question did,

isn't it really like when kids become

695

the full-time carers of their parents?

696

Um, and what that is and what that looks

697

Dan Orange: like.

698

Yeah, it does change very,

very quickly as well.

699

So, yeah, like Matt said, we,

my, my mother-in-law two months

700

ago was very, very ill, you know,

just hours really away from dying.

701

And so it has changed the last two

months and, and Lisa's role has been

702

so much more, um, looking after her.

703

Life has changed a lot.

704

Um, she's doing amazingly well.

705

Now she's ran as fatigue, which

we wouldn't have thought would've

706

even happened a few weeks ago.

707

Um, but it was, it was just, we

had, we had to go into that role.

708

You know, I think it's different

if, if potentially it's a

709

lot, lot longer, period.

710

I know with my parents, my grandparents

were, um, I mean like 101 and

711

98, they'd had very good Oh wow.

712

Very good lives.

713

But, um, grandma, um, got out Alzheimer's,

so really didn't that Relationship's gone,

714

you know, you can honor, honor them as a,

as a person, but they, they didn't really

715

even know who, who grandma, who mum was.

716

So it's just commitment.

717

Yeah.

718

Jenny Mariner: And I think those

scenarios, I mean, I haven't

719

walked it myself, but I think.

720

Knowing when you need the medical care

with things like that, you know, you

721

hear really difficult stories of people

trying to care at home for someone

722

actually that's beyond, yeah, yeah.

723

You know, so it's knowing when you need

the medical care, when someone does

724

need to go into a home or a hospital

or whatever, but still knowing what

725

honoring them looks like through that.

726

Treating them with respect.

727

Yeah.

728

Communicating well, and the other

thing I heard recently that just

729

really made me think was that we,

um, we like our dignity, don't we?

730

It was actually around the whole

euthanasia debate, which don't

731

particularly wanna get into, but

someone was saying, you know, I, I.

732

Of I would want to have euthanasia myself

because I don't wanna lose my dignity.

733

And the other person was like,

maybe we just need to accept

734

that we lose our dignity.

735

Yeah.

736

Yeah.

737

And it's just an

interesting thing, isn't it?

738

Like, so when my mum was saying about, you

know, you start with someone wiping your

739

butt and you end with someone wiping your

butt, like maybe there is something there.

740

Yeah.

741

That's, yes.

742

It's extremely difficult.

743

I can see the comments from Heather and my

heart, you know, goes out to you Heather.

744

It's extremely difficult, isn't it, to

get your head round the person who wiped

745

your butt that now you need to care for.

746

Yeah.

747

But I wonder if it is part of life.

748

Yeah.

749

You know, the beauty of

life that God's made.

750

I don dunno what you think.

751

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I, I, I think

it's a really important question and I,

752

I think actually in the West it's not

something that we talk about enough.

753

Um, I think our culture.

754

It is different from a lot of

cultures around the world, isn't it?

755

Where this sort of gener,

intergenerational care happens

756

auto automatically, not so

much in the UK or in the west.

757

Um, and there's very much a route which

is, you know, you live as long as you

758

can and on your own, and then, then

you're gonna go live in a home and

759

then, you know, then you know, you, we

might come and visit, yeah, we'll come

760

visit like once a week or whatever.

761

I remember growing up, my grandmother, she

lived in a, um, what do they call it now?

762

Assisted living, um,

residential care type place.

763

Um, and we went to visit her once

a month and she seemed, you know,

764

like, like she quite enjoyed it.

765

Um, she tried living with my uncle

and I think after a while it just

766

became evident that wasn't gonna work.

767

So, um, I mean, I dunno, the

fall was in fallen and outs,

768

but I think as a, as a society.

769

Yeah, we don't, this is

what I was talking about.

770

Have you had these conversations yet?

771

Because we don't talk about it and

it's like all of a sudden we're now

772

faced with this scenario that I, I

don't actually know how to deal with it

773

'cause we've not had the conversation.

774

Um, and so it's, it's a

complex one, isn't it?

775

And I, I would just encourage people to

have the conversation one ahead of time.

776

Um, just, it's a lot easier to deal

with these things ahead of time.

777

And also, I don't think

honoring means actually becoming

778

someone's full-time carer.

779

Mm-hmm.

780

Um, but in some instances it might.

781

Um, I, I think, I think

these things are unique.

782

Dan Orange: Um.

783

I think like, like Jenny said about

boundaries, and it could be that you

784

are a carer for a period, but if you've

got family and mm, um, other things

785

going on, you, you also have to look

after, after them, and yeah, yourself,

786

so that there does have to, you know,

majorly hard decisions, but there

787

does have to be, yeah, it does those

788

Matt Edmundson: boundaries as well.

789

One comment, uh, which I quite

like this phrase, how you treat.

790

Your aging parents teaches your kids

how to treat you when you are old.

791

Mm-hmm.

792

That's quite a scary thought, isn't it?

793

Just ignore everything Zoe.

794

Uh, just ignore everything that

that will be, that will be useful.

795

Um, so let's switch tack slightly,

um, because maybe one of the obvious

796

questions, and I think something that

I've seen a lot actually over the years,

797

we talk about it in Christian circles.

798

I mean, you mentioned earlier about

when you get married, you leave, uh, the

799

Bible talks about you leave your mother

and father and, um, that is you still

800

honor them, but you, there is this sense

of leaving their way of doing life and

801

you are creating your new way of life.

802

So the obvious example will be

Christmas traditions, right?

803

Uh, you leave those and you create

a new sense of Christmas tradition.

804

Um, but.

805

I've seen quite a few

marriages where mum's not left.

806

Mum's still involved a little bit either

with the daughter or with the son.

807

Um, you know, with the mum where

she's never quite convinced that,

808

that the wife is looking after her

son quite like how she ought to, um,

809

or whether the mum is just always

interfering with the daughter somehow.

810

Um, have you guys experienced that?

811

Any thoughts on this?

812

Jenny Mariner: I, um, we caught up with

some friends just last week actually, who.

813

Were really good at this with her parents

who just, they didn't as a couple, they

814

didn't earn very much money, but they

knew that that was around certain choices

815

that they'd made and her parents kept

trying to give them money, but then

816

like the money came with influence.

817

Yeah.

818

And you know, and they were really

good actually at standing up to them.

819

And, you know, they've got a

really good relationship with them.

820

I would say they did this with

honor and with respect, but saying

821

actually these are the choices

we're making for our family, and

822

you clearly don't agree with us.

823

You're making that quite evident

that these are the choices we're

824

making for our family and actually

we're not having your money.

825

Yeah.

826

Um, I, I reflected on that over the

years of, I think they did that really

827

well as a couple and they demonstrated

also talking about that as a couple.

828

Um, it was her parents, but

she was very sensitive to when

829

it wound him up, you know?

830

And I think being careful if you're, that

your own parents don't come in between you

831

and your partner, if that makes any sense.

832

Mm-hmm.

833

Like if you ever find yourself taking

the side of your parent against the

834

side of your spouse, I think that's

835

worth.

836

Having a think.

837

Yeah.

838

Yes.

839

At that point.

840

Yes.

841

And, and it does

842

Dan Orange: from experience.

843

It does, it does come up and it

comes up from different sides.

844

You think?

845

Well, my parents, I know.

846

I think what they did was right.

847

Um, but then you're

putting down your Yeah.

848

But going, going back to the last few

weeks we've talked about, um, motherhood

849

and parenthood and uh, and fatherhood.

850

And when you grow up, those roles change.

851

So I think someone mentioned that as

being a affect, often like a mother,

852

sometimes we got this whole thing of,

we, we want to be friends with our kids.

853

Mm-hmm.

854

And you lose the fact that you are,

you, you know, you are the parent.

855

But as you grow older, then

there is, roles do change.

856

There is a friendship.

857

But if that friendship then has

that, that boundary's completely

858

gone, then yeah, it does lose.

859

Especially if you're married, there's.

860

A whole sort of issues

that can come in there.

861

Yeah.

862

Yeah.

863

I

864

Jenny Mariner: guess the reality

is in a marriage, your spouse

865

has to be your primary person.

866

Yeah.

867

And it can't be anybody else.

868

Yeah.

869

Whether that's a sibling or a parent,

or a colleague or somebody you met in

870

the pub, or, you know, I mean, like,

871

Matt Edmundson: yeah.

872

I, I, yes and no.

873

Right now I'm gonna, I'm, I'm

gonna swing slightly the other way

874

here because, um, I, I do wonder,

875

let me, lemme just preface this.

876

I think I agree with everything

that everyone said, right?

877

That actually, if I take the example

of my mum, I think has been a legend.

878

It's not interfered in our

marriage, not had any, um,

879

expectations upon me and Sharon.

880

And as a result.

881

Her and Sharon got really well.

882

They talk more than me and mum.

883

In fact, my mum likes her

more than she likes me.

884

I know I am like bottom of

the pecking order right now.

885

There's the grandkids, there's Sharon,

and then there's me just right down there.

886

That's okay.

887

But I'm also aware that I am married

to Sharon and her dad is called Brian.

888

Now, I would fully expect Brian if

I wasn't treating his daughter well

889

or right to take me aside and say,

sort yourself out, son, because you

890

need to, do you see what I mean?

891

So I think on one hand parents

won't get involved, but I think

892

at some you, you, I don't know.

893

I think if it was one of my kids, I would

step in and go, this needs to change.

894

Jenny Mariner: But I guess even

in that, I guess you're talking

895

about doing it in a healthy way,

like him coming and talking to you.

896

Like, imagine how unhealthy it would

be if someone was in Sharon's ear.

897

Yeah.

898

Yeah.

899

He's not treating you very well.

900

Yeah.

901

I guess there's healthy

ways aren't there of.

902

Yeah.

903

But no, I would completely agree with you.

904

There's a, there's a space

for things like that.

905

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

906

Yeah,

907

Jenny Mariner: absolutely.

908

Matt Edmundson: So it says here, my mum

isn't abusive, but she's really difficult.

909

Constantly critical boundary

crossing makes everything about her.

910

Uh, I avoid her because every

conversation leaves me exhausted

911

and feeling bad about myself.

912

Um, it's interesting, isn't it?

913

Am I being selfish?

914

And how does this connect

with honoring your parents?

915

Um, and I think it's, it's worth

saying actually on that, that honor

916

doesn't mean unlimited access to you

or letting someone repeatedly hurt you.

917

I think sometimes honoring is actually

establishing really good boundaries,

918

um, and, and sticking with them.

919

Um, but it's, I, I, I.

920

I think, here's the thing, right?

921

I think hurt people hurt not all the

time, but I think if there is a reason

922

your mum is being like that, I mean,

I'm not a psychologist, but that hurt.

923

People hurt, right?

924

So there's something which is driving

that, um, that needs to be dealt with.

925

And I think as a Christian, our response

in that situation is to forgive, but it is

926

also to establish quite firm boundaries.

927

And I think like your friends with

the money, I think that's great.

928

These are the boundaries, right?

929

This is where we, we do not cross.

930

Um, which is ironic because when

we raise our kids, we're in effect

931

establishing boundaries, aren't they?

932

And here the kids are establishing

boundaries with the parents.

933

Jenny Mariner: Yeah.

934

I mean, I don't wanna say.

935

Too much of trying to

honor my own parents.

936

But I would say my personal experience

is the more I've dealt with stuff like

937

that myself, like with therapists,

with friends, the more I've been

938

able to then, um, not have to put

such a strict boundary all the time.

939

Like you might find you have to put a

really strict boundary in one season, but

940

the more you can access your own healing

for what's happened in your childhood

941

or in your past or even now, I think

you can, I would say my own testimony

942

is then being able to find a way of

navigating things of a similar elk, you

943

know, of like, okay, I can handle this.

944

This is the boundary, but

I can handle this because

945

actually I've dealt with that.

946

Dan Orange: Yeah,

947

Matt Edmundson: yeah.

948

Dan Orange: Jesus was quite, um, sort

of, his comments are never really that

949

gray are, they're quite definite, but

right at the beginning of his life

950

when he was in the temple, he was 13

and his parents were looking for him.

951

They'd lost him and he.

952

Well, don't you know, I should

be about my father's business.

953

And that was to his parents, you

know, it was respect, but it was

954

like, well, this, this, my, my

calling is my, my father in heaven.

955

And then, but then as you mentioned,

when he died, it was like,

956

John, look after my, my mother.

957

He didn't, he didn't dis disregard them,

put 'em out the way they were evident.

958

They were, they were, he

was, they were respected.

959

Yeah.

960

But his, his calling from God was, was

higher and that those boundaries came in.

961

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

962

No, that's totally true.

963

And another question then to ask around

this is, um, what about abusive parents?

964

Um, so sometimes we have dysfunctional

relationships with our parents

965

and sometimes that dysfunction

actually turns into abuse.

966

Mm-hmm.

967

Um, and I mean, the Bible being the

book that it is, is just full of

968

examples of dysfunctional parents.

969

So I think immediately

of David who, um, son.

970

Rapes, Tamar is it?

971

Tamar gets raped and then Absalom,

um, is like fuming that David doesn't

972

do anything about it and ends up

the kingdom, ends up getting split.

973

I mean, you talk about crazy

dysfunctional stuff going on.

974

It's all in the Bible.

975

Um, you see it right from the beginning.

976

Cain and Abel, the first kids

one ends up killing the other.

977

I mean, it's not, it's not what

you'd call happy families, is it?

978

And so, but I think there's

some real dysfunction there

979

that we have to be aware of.

980

So the Bible talks about honoring

your parents in the midst of also

981

providing all these examples.

982

Um, like you mentioned, Jesus,

Jesus was honoring to his parents,

983

but Mary thought he was crazy.

984

Halfway through his ministry,

she goes, you're nuts lat.

985

Do you know what I mean?

986

You need to be committed.

987

Maybe the message translation

puts it that way, but in essence,

988

that's just what he was saying.

989

Um, but it's, it's one of those where.

990

There are these dysfunctional

relationships, but in the midst of

991

it, it does talk about honoring.

992

So we have to be, like you

say, clear on what honoring

993

means and what it doesn't mean.

994

What's your thoughts on

abusive parent relationships?

995

Jenny Mariner: Well, I mean, you

definitely have to keep yourself safe.

996

Hmm.

997

And I think there isn't anything that

would suggest otherwise in scripture.

998

I, I would say, so you need to

figure out what that boundary is.

999

And I think, you know, worst case

scenario would be no contact at all.

00:49:21,810 --> 00:49:25,049

And then looking at what, what

even contact could you have

00:49:25,169 --> 00:49:26,580

sending a Christmas card, you know?

00:49:26,580 --> 00:49:28,500

But that's pretty worst case scenario.

00:49:28,919 --> 00:49:32,100

But I think you, we do have to protect

ourselves and we do have to figure out

00:49:32,100 --> 00:49:36,240

what in those situations we can do.

00:49:36,270 --> 00:49:39,629

I would still say that there's something,

you know, when I was talking about how you

00:49:39,629 --> 00:49:44,430

speak about your parents, I would probably

say even in those scenarios, to not be

00:49:44,430 --> 00:49:46,500

blurting it out everywhere all the time.

00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:46,620

Yeah.

00:49:46,770 --> 00:49:50,399

But thinking about where you share

it and where you talk about it, um.

00:49:50,745 --> 00:49:54,645

Not saying we should keep secrets,

but I think that is part of

00:49:54,645 --> 00:49:56,745

respect even in those scenarios.

00:49:56,835 --> 00:50:00,464

But I think it's okay to put

boundaries in and really harsh ones.

00:50:00,464 --> 00:50:03,134

If actually you've been in an

abusive situation, there needs to

00:50:03,134 --> 00:50:05,205

be a harsh boundary, then there

needs to be a harsh boundary.

00:50:05,955 --> 00:50:06,555

Would you agree?

00:50:07,125 --> 00:50:07,995

Dan Orange: Yeah, absolutely.

00:50:07,995 --> 00:50:11,625

It's not a, the commandments are

still the commandments, aren't they?

00:50:11,625 --> 00:50:15,799

You know, they his,

yeah, his word is Yeah.

00:50:15,805 --> 00:50:16,065

Yeah.

00:50:16,125 --> 00:50:16,815

Is ultimate.

00:50:16,815 --> 00:50:20,985

And we can't, it doesn't mean,

it doesn't mean ignore, and

00:50:20,985 --> 00:50:22,485

it doesn't mean ignore, yeah.

00:50:22,815 --> 00:50:23,325

Abuse.

00:50:23,325 --> 00:50:23,745

And it's

00:50:26,955 --> 00:50:29,985

like there is still some,

there's some respect.

00:50:30,345 --> 00:50:35,415

There's your, your chances of rep

repairing a relationship are greatly

00:50:35,415 --> 00:50:39,765

increased if you are not blurting

about everything that's happened.

00:50:39,765 --> 00:50:40,185

But yeah.

00:50:40,665 --> 00:50:45,165

Um, there's got to be, yeah, got

absolutely got to be two boundaries there.

00:50:45,915 --> 00:50:46,305

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

00:50:46,305 --> 00:50:46,400

I think.

00:50:47,385 --> 00:50:51,525

I think, and this is where I think

understanding the topic of forgiveness and

00:50:51,525 --> 00:50:54,975

honoring is really important because that

doesn't mean letting people off the hook.

00:50:54,980 --> 00:50:55,110

Mm-hmm.

00:50:55,190 --> 00:50:55,510

Mm-hmm.

00:50:55,590 --> 00:50:57,705

And I think sometimes there

has to be consequence.

00:50:57,705 --> 00:50:57,765

Yeah.

00:50:57,885 --> 00:51:01,245

Um, and there, you know, with abuse

especially, I think things have to

00:51:01,245 --> 00:51:04,275

be reported because it has to stop.

00:51:04,455 --> 00:51:04,695

Yeah.

00:51:05,085 --> 00:51:10,275

Um, and so I've not had abuse from my

parents far from it, but there have

00:51:10,275 --> 00:51:15,075

been times where I've been subject to

abuse and it's not a forgiveness issue.

00:51:15,735 --> 00:51:19,785

Um, but I did feel the need to

report it because it needed to

00:51:19,785 --> 00:51:21,825

stop in case it wasn't just me.

00:51:22,695 --> 00:51:28,395

Um, so letting them off the

hook is, is not forgiveness.

00:51:28,395 --> 00:51:28,425

Mm.

00:51:28,455 --> 00:51:29,565

It's not honoring.

00:51:30,165 --> 00:51:35,475

Um, but I, like you say, I think in the

midst of all of that, I can't choose

00:51:36,165 --> 00:51:40,605

or you can't choose what your parents

did or did not do, but you can choose

00:51:40,605 --> 00:51:42,345

your response as a result of that.

00:51:42,345 --> 00:51:42,555

Yeah.

00:51:43,125 --> 00:51:43,845

And I think.

00:51:44,549 --> 00:51:46,950

That's where the power lies.

00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:52,109

Um, I, I think that would be my,

my observation is too often I see

00:51:52,109 --> 00:51:58,080

people become victims, rightly

so, but they stay there because of

00:51:58,080 --> 00:51:59,400

something that happened to them.

00:51:59,970 --> 00:52:03,335

And so the, the, the

abuser still has the power.

00:52:03,339 --> 00:52:03,480

Mm-hmm.

00:52:04,109 --> 00:52:08,160

And I think where Christianity

and the gospel comes into play

00:52:08,609 --> 00:52:15,000

is actually through forgiveness,

through, um, through scripture.

00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:20,430

You realize actually God has

redeemed that and can, and, and

00:52:20,430 --> 00:52:21,779

can give you that power back.

00:52:21,990 --> 00:52:24,359

Um, and I think that's

super, super important.

00:52:24,359 --> 00:52:24,569

Yeah.

00:52:24,575 --> 00:52:24,975

Mm-hmm.

00:52:25,165 --> 00:52:25,455

Yeah.

00:52:26,490 --> 00:52:30,210

Uh, last, last, I'm aware of time,

so let's get into the last one.

00:52:30,359 --> 00:52:31,740

Uh, absent parents.

00:52:31,740 --> 00:52:33,870

Now this is an interesting one, isn't it?

00:52:33,870 --> 00:52:35,250

How do you honor an absent parent?

00:52:35,250 --> 00:52:39,299

Because if you look at all the stats, um.

00:52:39,780 --> 00:52:44,310

You'll realize quite quickly that

absent fathers especially are

00:52:44,340 --> 00:52:49,620

the, are connected to just about

everything that's wrong with society.

00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:53,700

Um, you know, most of the people

in prison have got absent fathers.

00:52:53,700 --> 00:52:57,630

Most of the men that commit violent

crimes, absent fathers, adult

00:52:57,660 --> 00:53:01,410

Hitler, s Starling, all of these

people grow up without a father.

00:53:01,500 --> 00:53:01,980

Do you know what I mean?

00:53:02,220 --> 00:53:07,050

It's just, it's crazy how, when you

look at the stats, how the impact that

00:53:07,050 --> 00:53:10,380

absent father has on the family unit.

00:53:10,380 --> 00:53:14,460

Now we've talked about what it means

to be a dad, um, but there's a,

00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:19,350

there's a question that isn't there

In the midst of that, how can you be

00:53:19,350 --> 00:53:22,260

honoring to someone who was absent?

00:53:22,410 --> 00:53:24,660

Now, I, I know your dad.

00:53:24,720 --> 00:53:26,460

He was, he was not absent.

00:53:27,270 --> 00:53:27,330

No.

00:53:27,331 --> 00:53:28,440

Um, I dunno, your dad.

00:53:29,190 --> 00:53:32,670

Um, I, so I, I've, no, I have no

idea, Jim, but I, I think it's a

00:53:32,670 --> 00:53:33,840

really interesting one, isn't it?

00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:37,710

Like Q my parents divorced when I

was young, so I was nine years old.

00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:40,320

I saw my dad once, twice a week.

00:53:40,980 --> 00:53:44,850

Um, so he wasn't absent, but

he wasn't permanently there.

00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:48,030

Um, and I, I see the impact that that has.

00:53:48,030 --> 00:53:52,260

So how do we, how do we honor in that

kind of environment do you think?

00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:54,450

Asking all the hard questions tonight.

00:53:54,450 --> 00:53:55,260

Hey, glad you came.

00:53:55,260 --> 00:53:58,800

Jenny Mariner: Yeah, no, um, I think,

yeah, that's what I was thinking.

00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:01,590

There's different kinds of

absence as well, aren't there?

00:54:02,130 --> 00:54:02,610

Or isn't there?

00:54:02,610 --> 00:54:04,830

You know, there's being physically

absent as being physically

00:54:04,830 --> 00:54:06,630

present, but emotionally absent.

00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:11,700

I think, um, what you are already

saying about your own heart in

00:54:11,700 --> 00:54:13,260

all of it is really important.

00:54:13,500 --> 00:54:16,290

You know, I did actually have a friend

whose father had completely disappeared

00:54:16,290 --> 00:54:20,010

and had no contact with him for about 20

years and then reappeared on the scene.

00:54:20,370 --> 00:54:25,470

And it was interesting that he had just

done enough forgiving that he was able to

00:54:25,470 --> 00:54:27,450

handle his dad reappearing on the scene.

00:54:27,455 --> 00:54:27,525

Yeah.

00:54:27,750 --> 00:54:29,700

And I'm not wanting to

paint hope of everybody.

00:54:29,700 --> 00:54:30,690

Your dad's gonna reappear.

00:54:30,690 --> 00:54:33,870

But it was interesting that

like he'd done the business.

00:54:34,830 --> 00:54:36,900

To deal with that rather than

just sitting in the resentment.

00:54:36,900 --> 00:54:36,990

Mm-hmm.

00:54:37,620 --> 00:54:41,040

And I think, I think it links to

a lot of the other things you were

00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:42,930

saying of like, processing that pain.

00:54:42,930 --> 00:54:47,910

Like honoring your parents does not

mean failing to acknowledge the pain

00:54:47,910 --> 00:54:49,200

you might have from your childhood.

00:54:49,290 --> 00:54:49,350

Yeah.

00:54:49,740 --> 00:54:54,510

You've gotta hold those two things,

intention and still find out how,

00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:56,550

what can you do to honor them?

00:54:56,550 --> 00:54:58,020

What does honoring look like?

00:54:58,080 --> 00:54:59,760

It might be not very much.

00:54:59,970 --> 00:55:00,030

Yeah.

00:55:00,330 --> 00:55:02,070

I think it's okay if it's not very much.

00:55:02,275 --> 00:55:03,475

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:55:05,130 --> 00:55:05,190

Yeah.

00:55:05,190 --> 00:55:07,230

It's um, it's an

interesting one, isn't it?

00:55:07,230 --> 00:55:08,340

I, I would agree.

00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:13,020

Um, I think what is God telling

you to do if you're a Christian?

00:55:13,020 --> 00:55:14,160

That would be my counsel.

00:55:15,510 --> 00:55:18,600

What, what do you feel like the

spirit of God is leading you to

00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:20,970

do when it comes to your parents?

00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:23,910

Um, and honoring your parents?

00:55:24,420 --> 00:55:26,370

I think that's like super, super critical.

00:55:26,580 --> 00:55:30,330

And I think the other thing that I

would say in, in all of this is, um.

00:55:32,115 --> 00:55:36,195

I didn't really understand what

mom and dad went through as

00:55:36,195 --> 00:55:38,745

parents until I became a parent.

00:55:39,195 --> 00:55:39,465

Right.

00:55:39,855 --> 00:55:43,995

I knew what it was like to be a kid

'cause I'd, I'd grown up in there,

00:55:44,595 --> 00:55:47,565

but I didn't know what it was like

to see it from their point of view.

00:55:47,655 --> 00:55:47,685

Mm.

00:55:48,105 --> 00:55:50,805

Because why would I, I was a,

I don't even, I was too busy

00:55:50,805 --> 00:55:52,065

thinking about myself, you know?

00:55:52,065 --> 00:55:53,685

It's not until you're in

your mid thirties, you stop

00:55:53,685 --> 00:55:54,645

really doing that, isn't it?

00:55:55,125 --> 00:55:55,845

But it's like,

00:55:58,125 --> 00:56:03,465

when I became a parent, I

saw things quite differently.

00:56:03,465 --> 00:56:06,615

I was a lot more empathetic to

some of the situations they faced.

00:56:06,615 --> 00:56:10,395

You know, like money, stress, and

worries and the impact that that

00:56:10,395 --> 00:56:14,505

has on family and, and all the

stuff you've got to deal with.

00:56:15,345 --> 00:56:19,545

And I think my respect and my

admiration for my parents grew

00:56:19,545 --> 00:56:21,165

when I became a parent myself.

00:56:21,195 --> 00:56:22,005

I dunno if you found that.

00:56:22,005 --> 00:56:22,275

Oh yeah,

00:56:22,695 --> 00:56:23,445

Dan Orange: absolutely.

00:56:23,565 --> 00:56:23,865

Yeah.

00:56:24,045 --> 00:56:27,915

You think before your parent

that, that, that you are tired.

00:56:28,305 --> 00:56:31,185

That you have lots of things to

do and then you become a parent,

00:56:31,185 --> 00:56:36,345

you go, no, I wasn't tired and

I had, you know, nothing to do.

00:56:36,345 --> 00:56:36,395

I had nothing to do.

00:56:37,050 --> 00:56:37,250

Yeah.

00:56:38,325 --> 00:56:39,555

I mean, it's that stark.

00:56:42,405 --> 00:56:42,615

Yeah.

00:56:42,615 --> 00:56:43,815

So did have a lot more respect.

00:56:44,535 --> 00:56:49,305

Matt Edmundson: Parents send all your

emails and comments to Dan, uh, on that

00:56:49,365 --> 00:56:50,595

last statement, but No, that's fine.

00:56:51,225 --> 00:56:51,945

Any thoughts on this?

00:56:53,415 --> 00:56:56,565

Jenny Mariner: Um, I can't remember

where we, did we start on absent parents?

00:56:56,565 --> 00:56:57,315

Is that where it was?

00:56:57,705 --> 00:56:57,885

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

00:56:57,885 --> 00:57:01,035

We were just talking about how our respect

for parents grew when we became parents.

00:57:01,065 --> 00:57:01,305

Jenny Mariner: Yes.

00:57:01,305 --> 00:57:02,985

Sorry, I just got distracted by thinking

00:57:02,985 --> 00:57:06,105

how much I agreed with what

Dan said, so you can send all

00:57:06,105 --> 00:57:07,155

your complaints to me as well.

00:57:07,335 --> 00:57:08,115

Yeah, absolutely.

00:57:08,115 --> 00:57:11,505

And I guess the other thing, one

thing I've just reflected myself.

00:57:12,090 --> 00:57:16,230

Again, not wanting to share detail, but me

and my sister have different approaches to

00:57:16,230 --> 00:57:19,529

some things in our family that my sister

just desperately wants it to change.

00:57:19,740 --> 00:57:21,330

And she's always like,

well, what about this?

00:57:21,330 --> 00:57:25,710

And what if we confront this and what if

we say this and I have learned some peace,