In this episode of Backstage Money, host Jason K Powers sits down with Jason Hartless, touring drummer for Ted Nugent and co-owner of Sound City Entertainment, to talk about what it actually takes to build and sustain a career in the music business.

Jason shares his story of growing up around music, developing his craft as a drummer, and eventually stepping into the role of touring drummer for rock legend Ted Nugent. Along the way he explains how musicians get hired, what bandleaders are really looking for, and why professionalism, reliability, and attitude often matter just as much as talent.

The conversation dives deep into the realities of the modern music industry. Jason talks about touring life, working relationships inside a band, and how musicians navigate an industry where income streams have shifted dramatically over the last two decades. From touring and merchandise to fan engagement and career longevity, he offers a candid look at what it takes to stay working as a musician today.

Jason also shares insights into the business side of music, including how artists adapt to the streaming era, how independent musicians can build sustainable careers, and why understanding the financial realities of the industry is essential for long term survival.

If you are a drummer, touring musician, band member, or independent artist trying to build a career that lasts, this episode offers a real world look at the music business from someone who has lived it on stage and behind the scenes.

Backstage Money is real world finance for musicians, where music and money collide through honest conversations with artists and industry professionals who are living it.

Connect with Jason Hartless

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jasonhartless

Sound City Entertainment: https://www.instagram.com/soundcity_musicgroup

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Welcome to Backstage Money, real World Finance for Musicians.

I am your host, Jason K. Powers, and this is where music and money

collide honest stories and practical lessons from people who make it work.

I am joined by Jason Hartless First Call Touring and session drummer.

Best known for holding down the kit for Ted Nugent.

a road pro who knows how to make a show run and a builder co-running Sound

City Music Group with his wife, Lexxi.

Jason, great to have you on the show.

Hey, Jason.

It's great to be here.

I appreciate it.

I know you guys have been busy this past year and you finally got some

downtime for a little bit, right?

Yeah, yeah.

it's I try to take what we do for a living, in a, in a certain

light than some other people.

You know, I'm the type of guy that I'd like to keep going

and going and going and going.

And in the time that I've got off, I start going crazy.

So, you know, when I'm done with one project, I move on to the next, move

on to the next, and always working.

You know, for the next gig or project or whatever we have going on.

Fill it, fill a schedule,

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Idle time is my worst enemy for me.

I know that.

That's it.

When I have free time, I'm like, okay, how many things

can I pack this free time with?

And everybody around me is like, weren't you supposed to relax?

Isn that right.

Exactly.

Exactly.

That's it.

So, I always like to kind of start with a origin story.

You know, gimme the background on.

How did you get to doing what you're doing these days?

You know, how did you get started?

When did you start?

You own a couple of drums.

If, for our listeners, for our viewers who are watching, you can see he's got

one or two drums sitting there behind him.

Uh,

Yeah, and this ain't all of 'em.

I got about 50 snare drums along this wall over here.

It's.

Awesome.

called a drum hoarding problem.

But yeah, you know, I'm very fortunate.

I kind of grew up in a musical family.

My dad was a professional drummer and, uh, he around, I grew up in Detroit

and around that area, he had a bunch of bands that did, pretty well regionally.

And I was born in 94 and around that time he was kind of involved with the Ace

Frehley camp and right when I was born.

He kind of retired playing drums and moved into the business, you know, world

and kind of when, before I can even walk.

I was, you know, tapping drums.

And then before you know it, you know, I started jamming with some of his buddies.

Around Detroit when I was about four or five playing clubs.

And then fast forward to when I was about eight years old, the Corky

Laing, the drummer of Mountain ended up becoming my mentor.

And he came to Detroit and we worked in the studio and

did a kind of a solo record.

And that kind of was the launching pad of kind of what.

led me to start touring the country in Canada around the age of 12.

And you know, I, I've been very fortunate to open, by the time I was 14 for

Motley Crue and Godsmack, and, you know, you, you name it, we were doing it.

And then fast forward to my teens, started touring a lot more aggressively.

And I joined Ted Nugent when I turned 21.

wild.

Wild.

Was it just surreal, I guess, being at such a young age and being in these

positions for legendary bands already?

Or was this just like normal for you?

You were like,

Well, I mean, I think I, I just, I grew up kind of around this stuff,

you know, and like I mentioned, you know, my dad was, very close with

Ace Frehley who had recently passed and, so I, by time I was born, I was

around, a lot of, iconic musicians.

So I kind of just have always been natural to it and, it's just been

kind of part of my life and I just.

Touring and being on the road and traveling the country has just

always been, something I love doing.

And been very, very fortunate to have been doing it, as long as I have and, and

get to play some amazing, amazing people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What's of one of the

let's say, let's parse it off, let's say before you turned 21, before you

partnered up with Nugent and them, what were, what's your favorite biggest

bands you got to play with or open for?

Well, you know, we I was touring with this band called Schram who the guitar

player, Brian Schram was a guitar player of Uncle Cracker and he kind of went solo

and we did a two and a half month tour.

It was Motley Crue, Godsmack Theory of a Dead Man Drowning Pool Rev Theory, Cavo,

it was this Crew Fest 2 tour in 2009.

And that was two and a half months.

And that was the summer between my eighth grade year and my senior year,

uh, freshman year of high school.

And because of that, I, because of that tour, I could not do marching

band my freshman year of high school.

So it was like touring with playing for Motley Crue or marching band.

So.

Choices, choices.

You know, so that was kind of the craziest experience, kind of growing up and, you

know, I was 14 at the time and, lucky my dad being in the industry, they,

he got sent out as our tour manager.

So, being able to travel the country and see and play some

amazing places was, incredible.

Right.

Right.

And then how did you end up pairing up with Nugent

Well, it's kind of a long story, but long story short in 2014, uh, 14, I was opening

for Ted touring with a band called Pistol Day Parade , who we had a lot of success.

And we had a potential number one, but the band broke up with "Rockstar's Girlfriend"

and, we toured opening for Ted for two months and we got done with that tour.

It was, if you've seen the movie, That Thing You Do, that's

100% the story of that band.

And it's a shame, but.

After that tour, Ted decided he was gonna change up a lineup and

he ended up giving me a call.

And here we are, 10 plus years later and 500 plus gigs together later.

And now I also oversee his entire audio and visual catalog and his

archives and, oversee a lot of stuff on the business side of Ted's career.

And it's been, amazing.

He's treated me like family and couldn't have couldn't ask for

a better person to work for.

Well, let's talk a little bit on the drummer side of your career.

from a band leader kinda point of view, what gets a yes when

they're picking a drummer?

what are some things that help for guys in your business, your line of

business, where they're gonna go out and they want to get hired as a drummer?

Or, a session drummer or whatever it is, what's some

advice you can be giving them in

that regard?

I think the biggest thing we know coming from a hired gun

standpoint and fortunately a lot of people's egos gets in the way.

And it, it affords them that they either get fired or they don't get hired on gigs

is at the end of the day when someone's hiring you, you have to say yes, even if

you don't agree with what they're wanting the final product to be, even if they

don't agree with what they're telling you to do playing wise, if you're not there.

You're and say yes to whatever your, your, the artist or the music

director or the producer or whoever's there to that's, it's their project.

It's their gig.

The one that's cutting your check.

If you don't be that yes man, then.

Don't be a hired gun musician, And it's unfortunately something that a lot of

people, even people that have had good resumes, they don't end up doing it.

And it leads to, not getting phone calls or not getting,

callbacks or anything like that.

So, being in that mindset of when you're on a gig, you're there to

please that artist, you're there to be that Swiss army knife, as you

will of whatever that person needs.

And if you're not, then enjoy making your own songs.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What do you find some key factors are in artists hiring

those drummers?

Uh.

I mean, talent is obviously a huge thing, but

Yeah.

I mean, I think I, I think if it, at the end of the day, it goes back

to what I just said, you know, by egos, being that, that consummate

professional that is always a team player.

Someone that's easy to get along with, someone that's drama free, someone that

is not an alcoholic, someone that's not a drug addict, someone that's

just, they know gonna be dependable.

They know they're gonna make bus call, they know they're gonna make their plane.

They know they're gonna, be where they need to be at that time, and there's

a lot of cases that, People get hired.

They might not be the greatest musicians ever, but they might

have gigs just because they know that they're gonna be dependable.

they might be able to do their job okay, playing wise.

But if they're never late, if they're always professional, those people

a lot of times, are gonna get hired better than the ones that are the

greatest musicians in the world.

Right.

Right.

Is there a typical, on this side of things, is there a typical, I'm gonna

say pay structure, or pay setup that is more common than others for drummers,

weekly per show or day rate per

diem, what

kind of scenarios do you run

it's, all over the place.

You know, the, the weekly is, is common, but also the, the per show is common,

you know, We're seeing more and more artists leaning towards one-off gigs

versus going on the road for two months.

So you're, you're are gonna see a more of a per gig pay structure.

I think the biggest issue though is we've gotten to a point to where the

pay structure really hasn't changed.

We're still a lot of artists.

A lot of producers and a lot of people are paying their musicians the same that

they were 20 years ago, 30 years ago.

Yeah.

know, and I talked to buddies of mine that, you know, were touring in the

eighties and you know, they're, they got paid in the eighties, a weekly

rate or a per show rate, almost what some people are getting paid

nowadays for weekly or per show rates.

So we haven't seen, even with the inflation of, the

world in the United States.

There hasn't been a adjustment to put into play when it comes to you know,

what musicians are getting paid, and that's kind of made it difficult.

And then you add the fact that, the accessibility of musicians in terms

of social media and their kind of the amount of people that think

they can be a professional when they, they're really not, has kind

of made it a little bit difficult.

For people that are, they do this for a living and it's really

ruined the pay structure because people are going to always undercut

way over, what somebody else is.

And again, it doesn't matter what their, what their talent level is.

Someone out there is gonna do a gig for free or do a gig for 50 bucks

just because they want that gig.

And then at the end of the day, it'll end up screwing over, musicians

that are, you know, should be getting, you know, good pay scales.

Yeah that's actually kind of surprising to hear if the pay hasn't

really gone up over the years.

Obviously expenses have, obviously the industry has gone up in revenue

as a whole, to, it's a common theme.

Ticket prices are getting to be through the roof and the musicians.

By at

large are not reaping the reward of that difference, And

Well, and even then, I think the,

uh, common misconception of this industry is it's like, yes

the gross revenue of the industry is gone like this.

However, the expenses have gone like this.

You know, touring wise, it's costing

yeah.

a heck of a lot of money for, Tour buses and, hotels and

travel, and things like that.

So even though that everything's gone up revenue wise, the expenses

have gone right up with it.

And COVID definitely put a, a, a big issue with that.

Tour buses, for instance, right when, everything kind of reopened in 21.

Tour buses were astronomically.

Now granted that was a supply and demand issue, but we've also found

there's an issue of bus companies aren't lowering their rates because

now they know, oh, well we can get this amount of money for this bus,

so why would we lower our prices?

So.

And that's a common theme around a lot of different things.

And of course with everything that's going on with the Supreme Court, with

Live Nation and Ticketmasters Monopoly, hopefully if they can break that up,

it'll help a lot more competition in terms of we're not just having two

promoting, promoters in the United States or, two major ones with Live

Nation, a EG, and then a couple.

Regional.

We have more regional and we have more opportunities for these smaller

companies to kind of be more competitive, which then lowers the ticket prices

and it's gonna allow the fan and the artists to, even though the, the

artists might be getting X amount of dollars at the end of the day, those

ticket master and those promoters are taking a heck of a lot bigger cut than,

be.

one would think they would be.

It, it's hard to filter, unless you're just in the thick of it.

It really is hard to filter what's accurate information out there, And I

think like that, like you said, there's a lot of misunderstanding in the industry.

There's a lot of accuracy, but there's a lot of misunderstanding

and who's making what and.

Where that money's really going.

You know, ticket price is going up, who's getting what part of that.

And there are certain figures that somehow dodge getting put in front of

the blame, even though very much reaping the rewards of that, it is that way.

Well, so, so back to kind of the weekly and per show and as you.

Set up an arrangement with the artist, you know, who's hiring

you, what do you recommend?

What kinds of things do you think are important maybe to be on paper?

And how should that pan out, formal contracts

how much are handshakes, how

much are on spec?

If this, then that, that kind of thing.

Well, I mean, I guess it depends.

Like I've

I I, I, I, to answer kind of the first part of that question, I think the,

the musician needs to know their worth.

And that, again, going back to what I said earlier about musicians

undercutting just to get the gig.

And when people do that, it screws.

Mm-hmm.

including that person in the long run because then that person in

five years might get underdog by someone else doing the same thing.

And, knowing your worth, knowing how much you are worth.

Now granted not going, through the moon saying, I want $30,000 for a gig.

is is one thing as a just a side man artist.

But knowing your worth is a big thing, not undercutting yourself just to do it.

Now we've all done, you know, sessions for free and gigs for free, you know,

for buddies or whatever, just to have fun or I know, you know, uh, this engineer

that I've done a lot of work for saying, Hey, they don't have a big budget.

Can you cut, drums on this record?

I've done that a thousand times.

just it's, 'cause it's always, at the end of the day, it always comes full circle.

But as long as you're not doing it in a way of like, I'm gonna do

this gig for free just because I need this gig, I need this gig.

because I got nothing else.

That's when it becomes an issue.

But kind of the, the second part of your question I've never, as a hired gun

musician, I personally have never dealt with actual written, formal contracts.

Um, it's all handshake deals with the managers.

Um, but I've, worked with a lot of different people and I know for, for

my and my wife's business, you know, when we hire musicians, we have a.

Formal contract.

'cause there's, it's, they're corporate events and we've got different

kind of, you know, situations set up than say, a touring artist.

So we've got formal contracts with these players one time thing, just basically,

keep all the insurance liability and make sure they know what they're

expecting and all that type of stuff.

But.

Formal contracts are not, unless you are dealing with a, a one massive artist,

it's, it's all gonna be handshake deals.

And again, a lot of people have been, you know, screwed over.

A lot of people haven't, but in the day of social media, I think it's, it'll

get out pretty quick if, if an artist doesn't pay a musician and then, you know,

so it's a little bit easier to kind of control that, handshake deals these days.

Sure, sure.

It'd be hard to find a drummer if you're not paying them.

Right.

it.

What's your thoughts on beyond

the, the session gigs and being paid and we still work for hire?

What if you get into recording.

I mean, it's we all hear the horror stories about, artists signing their lives

away to the labels and, the label owning everything in perpetuity and 360 deals

and all this other stuff that's involved.

And of course, like there's a lot of misconceptions of, of.

Of, you know, why certain things happen.

I'm very pro label.

I've always been pro label.

And the reason that is, is because at the end of the day, if you're

an artist, you look at every single artist that's ever existed.

Every single one has had a manager with a major label.

At some point in the other, whether, even if it was an indie label, they

were still distributed by a major label.

And I think with the modernization of streaming and the modernization of what

this business is kind of turned into.

We've fallen into a situation of more and more.

DIY artists are in the mind frame of I don't need a label.

I don't need, I can do this all myself because I can take my phone, I can fart

on my phone, and I can have it uploaded on Spotify and Apple Music tomorrow.

I, I, I take the mentality, I don't agree with it.

And the reason being is, is it creates.

Massive oversaturation within the business, which it turns into just

a frenzy of so much content and.

We look at the percentage of what content is actually really good and worth the

commercial success and worth, a massive fan base, it makes it a lot harder.

Which then the major labels nowadays are in the position of like, well,

we have to shove all of our only top artists down everyone's throats because

that's the only way we're gonna be able to actually penetrate through

the oversaturation of the business.

Now.

When it comes to mastership owners that's always the big thing.

While, the artist doesn't own their masters and you know, they don't own

their recordings and they don't own their publishing and things like that, it's

a little bit easier to negotiate things these days because of the oversaturation.

Like even to this day, I still hear of, of, people that end up signing

their life away to the major labels or any sort of label, saying, we

own your masters in perpetuity.

We own all your publishing, we own all this.

And if that situation is a

in play, the only way it makes sense is if.

That label is investing in your project heavily.

Now I look at a major label as an investment bank.

You that, that, that label is investing their capital into your career.

Now, that investment bank as the label is also supplying your marketing,

supplying all your distribution, supplying all the things that you

need and to be a successful artist, which DIY artists don't have.

Yeah, we've got social media, but you don't have that team that, that a group

of professionals that are gonna be able to actually take your and shape your career.

Look at every single legendary artist in the world.

Every single one has had a team of people behind them that are,

that's what they do for a living.

They've got someone that is a, a, a master marketing that's gonna

take this artist and say, okay, we know exactly who we're gonna go to,

where we're gonna go to it, but.

How you can kind of be in a different position these days is because more

and more artists, especially legacy artists, are moving away from ownership

of masters into licensing of masters.

And how that kind of falls into play is if an artist wants to make a record, they're

gonna fund that record on their own.

And then they're gonna shop that record to these labels and create licensing

deals, which in that fact still obtains ownership of the masters for that artist.

They can gain back ownership whenever they want, if it's a five year deal, 10

year deal, or wherever they negotiate.

And that ensures a multitude of things.

Number one, the artist is.

Still retaining their masters.

Number two, that major label, who has the power, who has the right

distribution, who has the right marketing, who has everything that

needs to be, they're got their piece in it, they've got, they're making the

revenue stream depending on whatever deal they work out percentage wise.

And it's just, to me, it makes the most sense and I'm seeing more

and more and more and more artists moving towards that direction of,

okay, if I wanna own my masters.

I'm gonna have to fund it myself.

I'm gonna have to make sure that I have that sort of real

tangible ownership piece of it.

Because if I'm not, and I'm gonna have to rely on someone else to finance it,

then yeah, the person that pays for it should have mastership ownership of it.

And I think that's where a lot of people kind of look frowny upon.

But to me it makes perfect sense.

Right.

there's a lot of banter out there right now, especially, we hear about

it all the time, and I appreciate this perspective because it's probably

not the most common perspective now.

Like there's a lot of, at least the loudest voice.

Wins as they say, for opinion, whether or not it's right.

The loudest voice gets the stage.

And so the loud voices are coming up and there's a lot of

bitterness, I think, towards

labels and

getting the general public perception behind them on

that.

And maybe that's good in a way, right?

That you, you kind of create this need for

Mm.

Uh, the musician to the label and that relationship, like you said, and there's,

and I appreciate that perspective on how yes, they're funding everything, you know?

Yes.

If they're

doing this, this, this, and this, then

okay.

You know?

Uh, but don't give away, the master conversation I

think is great because if you

can control that part then license it, right?

Best case scenario.

Well, yeah, and I think it, it goes back to, what I do with, you

know, the, my, my record label is almost everything that we do.

We actually license directly from the artist.

All of this demos, outtakes, things like that.

The way that these contracts were working back then is these major labels

only owned the final delivered master.

So because of that, any outtakes or rough mixes or anything of that sort.

Actually are owned by the artist which is great, which is as forward to, and

it's not every deal that's just, majority of 'em out there from the legacy area.

Era is kind of like that.

But it's really afforded the artists a great opportunity to, you know,

dig back into their catalogs and find these, alternative versions,

rough mixes of these iconic songs, and then they're able to put 'em out.

And so we end up licensing with a lot of, Ted Nugent and Sweet, and, and those

are the main two that we've got complete control and access of their archives and,

you know, been able to kind of dig in.

And the fans love this because they're sick of hearing the same versions

of this, of the song over and over.

So now, okay, let's find this cool demo and things like that, but

it all boils down to licensing.

Well, so what's a good step for artists to be taking on as they're pressing forward?

Right.

We talk a lot

about getting in front of people, doing

the live shows.

That's a, I mean like a non-negotiable pretty much,

and getting in front of people.

And that

tends to be a lot of the better revenue generator.

For artists for

immediate income.

Would you agree?

Like,

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, in, in 2026, yeah.

I went from

where, uh, recordings and albums with what made the most money is now flipped

to where, we have to rely on touring and a lot of artists have to rely on

touring to make any of their money.

yeah, yeah.

what advice would you give artists starting out pursuing this?

You know, because the perception is I wanna get out there.

You have really a polarized view.

I want to get out there and I wanna get signed as soon as humanly possible.

Then you've got the other side, you know, on the indie side where it's like.

Forget labels, man.

I don't want to, I don't wanna be signed and I don't wanna do it all myself, know,

so there's probably a happy medium but,

either, either lane, they've all gotta start somewhere and they've

all gotta get the first few steps in

to start pushing stuff out.

You tend to lean on,

I mean, is your perspective get signed as soon as possible,

Well, the days of artist development

don't exist anymore.

Which to me again, is a tragedy because I think

artist development is so key

into the early development and kind of molding of an artist.

I mean, we look at, again, all these iconic artists.

They had artist development, especially seventies and eighties and nineties.

When the, the machine of the music business was at its peak was every artist

that they signed had some sort of artist development and, and that helped shaped

into that artist that they are today.

Michael Jackson.

He was big on, the biggest artist of all time and Jackson Five and all that stuff.

When he got shaped into what we all know him today as Quincy Jones,

even though he's a producer, he was kind of that almost molding

him into what he needed to be.

And I think we're missing that these days.

'Cause everybody thinks they can, make their album in their basement.

And I'm my own producer and I'm my own, and we're missing that collaborative of.

Business professionals and experts that mold.

But they kind of this day and age, because our development's not super, you know,

relevant anymore in terms of the labels, those divisions kind aren't really around.

A lot of labels won't even look at an artist until they already have

an established fan base, which again, to me, I don't agree with.

Because yeah, the, the they're building that audience.

But in the day of social media, it's not very hard to get likes and follows.

So we're, we're, we're not, we're not seeing an actual organic

creation of an artist.

We're seeing a modified.

Let's talk when you're successful type situation, which I, I

don't, I just, I don't know.

I take us back to the music industry of the seventies and eighties and,

you know, let's look at, let's get this artist that has great songs.

Let's get 'em with a real producer to make sure this record is, huge.

Let's get him with, I think Chapel R's a great example of that.

She had her.

You know her, she built up a little bit of filing.

She was signed, I, I'm, and I could have this wrong, but she signed

with Warner Brothers originally.

They put out, they put her with a producer ping Pony Club was put out.

It just didn't really do well.

Late Warner dropped her and just kind of was doing things Universal, grabbed her.

Actually did artist development put her, made that record there?

Her debut record I thought was, or her record with Universal, I thought

was phenomenal, perfectly produced.

They built the team around her.

They built the band around her.

They built the stage show.

They built her persona.

They built it.

It's like that was a, that's to me is a great example of modern.

Artist development.

That doesn't happen.

And that, but again, a lot of cases it's, if you don't have a hundred

thousand followers or you don't have 50,000 followers, you don't have, you're

already touring a hundred dates a year and you're not already doing this, then

they don't want nothing to do with it.

But we lack the true raw creativeness that, that kind of build.

Well, so what's the alternative?

Uh, right now.

That is, that's the,

that's the way when it comes, when it comes to majors.

When it comes to majors, that's the way of the land.

I mean, you could find some, you know, indie labels that

are, doing a little bit more.

But again, the days of, let's give this artist the chance.

Mm-hmm.

doesn't exist.

It's

If we're investing money and we're investing time, we have

to know that this is a home run.

It has to line up with all the data, and it has to line up with all the numbers.

And if it doesn't line up with those, that data in those numbers, no chance, you

know, very, very small, very small chance that it'll, something will happen of it.

And again, we have so many great records.

So many great artists that were on the brink of being dropped by a

label or on the brink of not even getting any sort of opportunity.

And those records ended up being classics because they were given

that chance they were there.

There's, given that, um, well let's just put some money into 'em and see what

happens versus, if we don't see a home run, then we want nothing to do with it.

So let's tie that in.

Now, you know, with guys

running Sound City

Music Group, gimme the one, the breakdown, the different facets of it, but then

let's kind of talk on the label side and.

Your vantage point from that side of it and how it

can help artists.

you know, I, I.

With with record label stuff.

Like I said, I, I,

I love catering to the reissue type stuff.

I don't, I, I've done artist development in the past with a couple of different

labels, um, that I've wouldn't work for and I always love artist development,

but one of my favorite passions is really dealing with legacy stuff and.

Dealing with, finding these gems that have never been heard and

finding these demos and outtakes.

It's just, it's awesome because I look at it as from a fan perspective.

I know that, like the who in Toto are my two favorite bands.

I know the, who has been pretty consistently releasing the super

deluxe editions of their albums over the last 10, 15 years.

And we hear awesome raw stuff.

We hear awesome things.

So that's.

That's, as a fan, that's my favorite facet of doing that thing.

So I don't really, uh, we don't really tailor ourselves

to any artist development.

But in terms of, you know, how we kind of run our businesses, we try to be as.

Musician forward is possible because at the end of the day, we're owned and run

by, you know, working professionals.

So we know what it's like to get, you know, screwed over on a deal

and we know what it's like to not, have everything done the right way.

And it sucks.

So everyone that works for us, with our, our doing piano side of

things, every person that works for us, we try to make sure that.

when I handle all the travel arrangements and I handle all the logistics stuff,

that it's done exactly how I learned how to do it by working with some of

the best tour managers in the world, and knowing that even though that

they're just corp, they're corporate gigs, they're cool, fun corporate gigs.

I like to make sure they're treated as if we're on the road, we got,

itineraries exactly like it is.

It's all laid out, very straightforward and streamlined.

Because I know for me, if I was in a situation where it was disorganized

and chaotic, I would go nuts.

So we try to make sure we look at as much as possible.

As you know, we're musicians, we are professionals.

We know what we want from people that you know, we work with.

So anybody that works with us, we want to give 'em the same thing.

so, so running these different, being involved in these different facets from

the Sound City Music group categories

and the drumming and business ebb and flows, and

what is your kind of, what kind of go-to things are there when

you're on the downturns, you like, you see, you've got a,

whatever it is, a three month gap

ahead something, you, know,

what kinds of things are you doing

Well, you

know,

there's been times in my life that it's been like that.

There's been times where, I haven't had a gig in months and or I haven't had a

project going on and things like that.

And.

When those times happen, I always try to figure out something else,

you know, to kind of suffice it.

However, we've now built, the company and built a lot of different things up so

much that we never really have downtime.

I know that I'm always working on projects.

I mean, the last two, probably three or four years I've been

developing, ted Nugent's fan club archive called the Nug Vault.

And we launched that back in, uh, I think March of 25.

And, you know, it's, it's kind of the first of its kind interactive audio

video archive that we kind of blend old school fan clubs where these,

members are getting physical, tangible items, but they're also getting a

massive catalog of digital archives.

Um.

That takes up a lot of time that I have because I'm always transferring new stuff.

Uploading new stuff, restoring new stuff, you know?

And then right now I'm in the middle of editing the new book for Ted Nugent.

And then we're working on this project, and I've got this project and I got,

so it's, it's, it gets to the point to where now I'm like, dang, I need a,

I need assistant or something because there's so much stuff, and kind of

different aspects going on that it's like, okay, well how can I make sure

I'm executing everything correctly?

But, you know, I. We, you know, we, my wife and I are big Disney people,

so we go to Disney World all the time as that kind of escape from,

you know, work for a little bit.

But, you know, when I'm home, it's, we're always working on something different

and the next project, so, and if I, if it wasn't like that, I'd go crazy.

Well, so what have you found to be from a financial side to be

good, before you got too busy?

Like what are some good buffers or financial strategies

to prep with the downtime?

You know, we have conversations all the time about artists all

of a sudden just scrambling.

lack

of planning really.

Or just there wasn't enough windfall when they were making the money.

Just, I guess ultimately

it's lack of planning or they're not making enough to begin with,

or there's not enough future

planning going on to, to buffer those slow times.

What kinds of things have you seen be helpful in filling those gaps?

Well, I think the advantage to being a musician

is you can always find gigs, whether it's a, you know, corner bar

gig or

a corporate gig or,

you know, whatever.

You can make money at any level of music, and.

Like, I know so many, so many of my buddies that the only

thing that they do is touring.

They don't do anything else.

They just, they're, they just do that.

And, you know, a lot of times they're off for, months and months on end.

So they end up, playing, you know, Broadway in Nashville, or they do

sessions like, I'm always been, you know, I always love doing sessions

when I'm not on the road or,

Mm-hmm.

know, I've never been one to kind of, I do gigs of here and there.

But I've always been a studio guy, so I, that's what I do during my town downtime.

But it's, it's, again, I think we're, there's a lot of musicians that

also, they kind of get into this mindset of like, when they're not

on the road, that they don't prep.

So they start scrambling.

So what do they do?

They end up finding a buddy that owns a construction

company, so they gotta do that.

So we end up seeing these musicians that, work, work, work on the

road, and then they come home and then they're like, okay, well.

Now I actually get a day job until my next gig.

so it, it, it, that's always been the, the common thing since the dawn

of this industry is if they're not on the road and they're not doing

anything else, I guess I'm getting, you know, doing something else.

But that's why I've tried to as much as I can to build my career

outside of my career, so that when I'm not on the road not doing

gigs, I'm completely swamped with.

Still in this business.

And, growing up in it, being around it, I, it's, it's always a love hate

relationship with the music industry and, but at the end of the day, it's what I do.

It's what I love,

you know, being, being able to be on every side of it is just, um, it's, it keeps

it fun and interesting and trying to be that Swiss army knife of like, okay, well.

I'm gonna be an audio restorer this day.

I'm going to be a drummer this day.

I've gotta, create this, this day.

I gotta do that.

It's just, it's, it keeps it fresh and ing and I, and I love it and I would

never trade it for anything else.

Well, so I know there's a discussion that we've had.

I was talking with you and your wife the other day a little bit about what

we call the infinite banking concept.

That's one of the things that I teach musicians and how to utilize it.

Can you give me a, perspective on what that is and what the advantage

is maybe from your vantage point?

I think the biggest thing about it is, is like.

We, we never want our money tied up in a situation where we end up,

you know, getting heavily taxed.

If I put money in there, I wanna know that that's my money.

I want to know that I can obtain my money anytime it needs to be.

I think the best way of, for musicians to utilize this concept is, if,

say you want to fund your recording project, say you want to be in a

situation where you will own your masters, you will pay for it yourself.

This kind of is a great concept to where you can kind of do that and not be in

a situation where you owe people money, you just pay yourself back essentially.

So it's, it's great for that.

And I think when more musicians kind of start learning that and understanding that

that kind of situation, I think it'll be great for these, DIY artists to be able to

own their stuff so that when they go and license it to a major label to, you know,

do great things, they still have control.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think it's a good vehicle.

I'm obviously biased, but I was practicing this before I got into it as a career

anyway, and I love how flexible it is.

I love the versatility of it, right?

The fact that I can put my money into this vehicle and it grows

uninterrupted throughout my life.

The fact that I can access that money, I haven't given that

control over to somebody else.

You know, and for musicians specifically, it, I got into

this, I started this podcast.

I put the ebook together because I saw the advantage I am sold on

the advantage for musicians on how you can fund this vehicle.

You're gonna save for something.

You're going to finance something throughout your life.

You're going to need leverage, you're going to need to buffer the slow times.

And all the stuff that happens in life, this vehicle is one of the ways

that you can really smooth out that process build up a vehicle that you

can right, borrow against, buy another drum 'cause Lord knows you need one.

And buy that drum kit when you need it.

Instead of, okay, I need it now, I'm gonna finance it and put on a credit card.

But I didn't lose access to all of that money.

It didn't stop growing somewhere else.

Right.

And then I could refill that pot and then, I'm not getting

any income for three months.

Now I have something to fall back on for a little bit and then refill that

pot once you get back up and running.

Right.

And just this, it can work in perpetuity.

You know, the way I see it.

Yeah.

Hopefully you guys are finding an advantage to it.

I know you guys are doing a little bit in your own life.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think, luckily.

We're, in a situation where we've, we've got these things

that, build that cash flow.

So, we don't use it from a business side, but I know a lot of other people

that, utilizing it for your business.

So for your, career is a really, really great, advantage to use.

And, we use it more on a Personal, side of things, but, you know, the,

I think as this concept kind of gets more, known and, and more people start

hearing about it and implementing it, I think that you'll find that, it will

be a lot more beneficial than using a credit card and things like that.

Nature when you, when you have to make a big purchase.

I appreciate that input.

I'm gonna give you the listener more information about, at the end of the

show on how you could download a free ebook that'll talk about that and then

get connected and see if you wanna look into it more, but onto the next thing.

Any hard lessons you learned along the way that didn't pan out?

You're like, I definitely won't do that

again.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, we, it's,

We've all been screwed over.

I, luckily, I haven't been screwed over from a musician standpoint, but business

wise, there's always, people that,

you know, you think you can trust in business and then they end up

screwing you or, you know, they,

you know, put you in a different,

a tough situation, that can affect relationships with

other colleagues or whatever.

It's, I just make sure you have whatever you can in writing, you

know, when it comes to if you're dealing with any business stuff.

Now I said earlier, I've never dealt with contracts when it came to me being

like me being hired as a musician,

Yeah.

but I try to take approach of whenever I'm hiring somebody, they have a

contract, we know that it secures them and makes sure they're protected.

And same with me.

So, we, there's, there's always.

The, the, I guess the, the old saying goes is if, if you're doing something

right, when people want like to sue you for something that they have no right

to, because they just wanna, they just want to, see you get knocked down.

And I've been involved in a couple of those in my, in my

life and, you know, won those.

So, but it's I, I look at it as like, you're doing something right

because people wanna knock you down.

Hmm

mm-hmm.

What's a, is there a common mistake you see artists that have a,

propensity

to make throughout your career, like getting themselves in a position

or bad choice on financial choice, bad

contracts?

Is there anything you tend to see come across your,

Well, I mean,

of site?

It's, again, it goes back to what we were talking about in terms of ownership.

You know, it's, it was always, the term 360 deal is what the, the labels

you've done for years and where they take a piece of everything.

But, a lot of people get these wide eyes of like,

oh, well

I'm, I've got a shiny contract in front of me.

I'm just gonna sign it because I'm gonna be a star in.

Yep.

You know, making sure that you have attorneys, making sure you have

professionals that know the lingo and making sure you have people that know

what they're talking about help you and make sure you don't get screwed.

Because again, extremely common theme.

I've been called by, some buddies of mine that, that have been like,

Hey, I got a call from a radio promoter and sold me the world and.

They're gonna make me and put me on every radio station and

they're gonna do all this.

And,

and then I'm like, okay, well

what, what, uh,

how much does it charge?

Well, you know, they wanna charge me some big dollar amount.

I'm like, why would you do that?

You know?

And it's, it's, it's the Hollywood eyes of the music business

that is, you know, creates misconceptions of so many people's.

Like, sign this, sign your name on a dotted line, and

I'm gonna make you a star.

Have professionals look at it, talk to people that you might know that, that

have experiences and they can help you from not getting screwed over.

And thinking long range,

right?

Thinking this sounds good now, but how is this gonna affect

me a year from now, or longer?

Right.

What am I.

Yeah.

And that's what ends up, signing your life away, you know, signing your masters away,

signing your publishing away, signing

the rights to your, there's labels out there that

they specialize in

building a, and I'm not gonna name them label, but there's a label

out there that, that specialize in.

Builds super groups of musicians that have played with other,

you know, played with big names.

They pay them a fee

and then

they own everything.

So it's a work, essentially a straight up work for hire situation.

So then that band can't do anything without the express

permission from that label.

But there's different situations.

Again, it goes back to talk to a lawyer, talk to people that you're

talking, that, that know the business and don't just sign something

because someone sold you, the world.

Mm-hmm.

what are the different revenue streams you see

out there that

tend to be

the best for artists?

You know, there's a

lot of, there's okay.

Touring, there's

record sales, right?

We have the streaming conversation, which is

a constant discussion nowadays.

You have.

Even on tour, you have the

meet and greet kind of people want to do the meet and greets.

They wanna charge for

those, or the people wanna do merch.

there's a lot of money in merch.

You know what

Well, I mean,

eyes.

uh, vinyl to me

Is one of the best forms, even though it is expensive to produce.

You know,

I've now been,

you know, pressing vinyl for 10, 10 years now and worked on.

You

know, 40, 50, 60 projects.

I love vinyl because

it's a tangible item.

It's a art, it's an art piece.

It's a kinesthetic quality.

Actually doing it, the fan gets an experience

and it also from a revenue standpoint, even though vinyl costs to paint between

six and $10 per unit, depending on, the packaging that you're doing, um.

The profit margin in vinyl to me is one of the best around still because

you're able to sell premium sign versions or it's very easy to create

3, 4, 5 different color variations.

And the fans will buy all four.

They wanna collect all four.

They, it's very easy to throw in a poster or something cool

inside of a digital download card.

There's endless possibilities with it.

And obviously we've seen over the last number of years, the vinyl

sales have just gone like this.

But I, I personally love it now, I always have people still

like, well, what about cd?

What about cd?

It's also easy to, you know, include a CD with a, with a piece of

Well, so it's interesting.

Vinyls outsold CDs nowadays.

I think that's absolutely wild

Well, yeah,

I, I love it.

I, I, you know, I grew up, I was born in 94, so I kind of.

You know, grew up in that pre-digital world, I still remember having to go to

the store and buy a CD and, you know, even cassettes at a certain point.

And, I, I, I. What's, what we are, we're missing is that kinesthetic quality.

We're missing that physical, tangible item.

you look at vinyl records, it's a 12 by 12 inch piece of art.

You know, that's why people, they frame 'em and they do all this stuff.

So it's just, it's great from a revenue standpoint, you know, you're able to do

deluxe editions, all that stuff, but.

You know, I think we're seeing more and more meet and greets is becoming a

great revenue stream for the artists.

And at the end of the day you have to look at it like this.

What does the fan want?

The fan wants something that they can hold or they can see, or they can have.

That's going to connect him to that artist, that meet and greet opportunity.

You know, there's, there's some meet and greets out there that's, you take

a picture and you're moved along.

It's like a, cattle line.

You're just click next, click next.

But like, I'll use, Ted is a great example.

His meet and greets are phenomenal because it's a half hour and

you're sitting in a room.

You're just hanging out, and the amount of people that have not

only come away with like, that was the best experience in my life.

But also the next time we come to that city, we're seeing those same people,

yeah, the meet and greet experience is, there's such a variety, and

I've been on the fan side plenty, where it's step and repeat.

That's always disappointing, The, especially if you're paying good money

for it, and I think there's something to be said about the artists who will

spend the time with their fans, whether they're paying or right, not, right?

If you're paying for the meet and greet or the artist, you're just hanging

out after the show, wandering around.

I think there's something to be said about that.

I think it generates more personal experience.

Right?

And you walk away with that.

And so you're gonna want to, you appreciate it that much more.

Well, I.

see him again?

I think too, it also adds to the fact of, even if the artist is up and coming,

or they're not big enough to sell, meet and greet packages, the artist hanging

out after the show or just coming to the merch table or whatever, that's

gonna help generate that revenue.

that's going to help boost sales.

If you are going to that merch booth, people are gonna come up there, wanna

talk to you, and they're gonna be like, oh yeah, here, gimme the T-shirt too.

Gimme a poster, gimme a cd, and then they sign it again.

It's that personal.

Experience that person, that fan wants, they want to hold,

they want to have something.

And that's why with the Nug Vault, what we do is if you're a yearly member

of the me of the big top tier, you're getting, signed items by Ted included,

that get mailed to your house because.

That connection with that artist that gives almost an artist is only

there because of that fan, because that's what made that artist.

So if the artist knows their spot and they know they're gonna give back to that

fan, that fan is always gonna be there.

That fan's always gonna purchase stuff.

That fan's always going to buy concert tickets, wear their t-shirts, buy

their albums, everything in between.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I agree.

I agree.

alright, so as we land this plane, every show we wrap with what we call

final riffs, the short questions, quick answers, uh, first thing that

comes to mind you can always pass.

And just a kind of a fun thing we do at the end.

Get to know whoever we're talking to a little bit more.

You ready?

Yeah, absolutely.

All right.

I think I know the answer first.

Drummer, who made you wanna play for a living?

Uh, Mick Tucker from the Sweet when I was two years old.

That was my first drumming influence.

But you know, I've had a million millions since then.

How fun.

One song.

You never get tired of playing live.

Uh, I gotta be Stranglehold just 'cause it's so iconic.

Yes.

right.

Favorite Venue to play in and why?

I, it was a cross between three different venues and the Pine Knob

Amphitheater in Detroit and Freedom Hill Amphitheater in Detroit.

Now, freedom Hill Amphitheater in Detroit is more special because I literally

grew up on the other side of the hill and it's a, 15,000 seat amphitheater.

I play with Ted all the time, so it's literally playing at home.

But, and then the Ryman Auditorium here, I've played a few times,

and that's here in Nashville, and it's just such an iconic venue.

Yes.

Yes.

Awesome.

All right.

Coffee, tea or something?

Stronger.

Coffee all day.

One of advice to your 18-year-old self

I guess it would just be, keeping making sure you're enjoying

the moment as much as possible.

You know, I've always enjoyed the moment, but maybe my 31-year-old self, enjoys a

little bit more than my 18-year-old self,

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

A non-music hobby that maybe keeps you sane

Going to Disney theme parks.

is in theme parks.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Alright.

If you weren't a drummer, what do you think you'd be doing?

Doing exactly what I'm doing and being a, industry executive.

'cause I just love it so much.

Great.

Great.

All right, Jason, that was great.

I appreciate you being on, I love the.

The perspective, know, especially on the label side And, I want you to take

a second actually and share how people can reach out to you if they want to.

How can we follow you?

See what's going on.

if people want to touch base on your Sound City, uh, music group, that out.

How can we find you?

Yeah, I mean, I try to cater myself as a, a, very approachable and easy to

find on all social media and internet, because that's the day we live in.

So you know, Jason Hartless, I'm.

All the platforms and things like that and, soundcitymusicgroup.com, is a

great way for, to learn more about, our label and everything we do between.

Cool.

All right.

Well, thanks again for being on the show and for everyone listening,

if you want a steadier way to fund your music, grab a copy of my free

ebook at 1024wealth.com/music.

called A Musicians Guide to Infinite Banking.

It'll show you how to keep the money accessible, keep the money flowing and

compounding, smooth out those feast or famine times, and help fund the things

you couldn't normally fund along the way.

so when you're ready to talk through it, gimme a call, book a call with me

on that same link, 1024wealth.com/music, and let's talk through it.

Meanwhile, thanks for listening and subscribe on your favorite podcast.

Share this with one person who needs to hear it.

I'll see you next time, and until then, keep your money

working and your music moving.

Thanks, Jason.

Yeah, appreciate it.