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World Changers: Can digital technology open up university education for all?
Episode 314th April 2022 • Changing The World • University of Leeds
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Can digital technology open up university education for all?

In this World changers episode, Vice-Chancellor Simone Buitendijk speaks to Dr Bronwen Swinnerton.

Digital technology is often promised as the key to widening participation in university education for more students. But such technology isn’t neutral, and not all learners have the same access to it. Bronwen Swinnerton has been looking at how the ‘digital divide’ affects students in the UK and across the world. And she describes how the University of Leeds’ mission to tackle such inequalities is starting right at home.

Transcripts

Simone:

Research that changes lives.

Simone:

Four simple words, inspiring researchers at the University

Simone:

of Leeds to reshape the world.

Simone:

I am Professor Simone Buitendijk, since arriving at the University

Simone:

in 2020 as Vice-Chancellor.

Simone:

I've been amazed by the passion, creativity and ingenuity of the

Simone:

research community to make a difference.

Lucy:

Having the opportunity to exercise choice is really key to palliative care

Lucy:

and that individualised care that supports the person in the last few months of life.

Cristina:

We need to learn from the mistakes that we've made and we

Cristina:

need to learn from the instances where prevention atrocities work.

Leah:

I think the COVID-19 pandemic actually forced us to become a

Leah:

little bit more digitally literate.

Leah:

Although I do think we still have some room to kind of, continue growing.

Simone:

One of my priorities has been to learn more about the sheer

Simone:

range of research carried out by early career researchers at Leeds.

Simone:

They are the new generation of world changers people working tirelessly

Simone:

with communities and academics around the world on finding solutions to

Simone:

seemingly intractable problems.

Simone:

Over the course of this podcast series, I will be in conversation

Simone:

with those researchers.

Simone:

Join me as our World Changers described new discoveries and

Simone:

approaches that will make the world a better and more equitable place

Simone:

to live.

Simone:

It's about research that changes lives.

Simone:

Welcome to this latest edition of the World Changers podcast.

Simone:

I'm Professor Simone Buitendijk I'm joined by Dr.

Simone:

Bronwen Swinnerton, who is Deputy Director of the Centre for Research

Simone:

and Digital Education here at Leeds.

Simone:

Across the globe, there's growing demand for knowledge among potential students

Simone:

that cannot be met by traditional brick and mortar universities.

Simone:

The answer lies in providing digital education.

Simone:

Leeds has plans to become a university without walls, enabling people anywhere

Simone:

in the world to study with us online, but students access to computer hardware

Simone:

or stable wifi varies widely, and they will want to learn through examples and

Simone:

experiences that are culturally relevant.

Simone:

Some students will be more competent with digital technologies than others.

Simone:

So how can we as the university community make sure that digital

Simone:

education is fair and engaging for all and does not exacerbate old

Simone:

inequalities or put up new barriers?

Simone:

Bronwen there's a lot to talk about and thank you for being with us.

Bronwen:

Thank you for inviting me.

Simone:

Yeah.

Simone:

Really looking forward to the conversation.

Simone:

So let me start by asking you how you became interested in digital education.

Bronwen:

Yeah, good question.

Bronwen:

I've been involved in educational research for many years, and then at

Bronwen:

one point I left the university and went to work in a private company,

Bronwen:

developing online and blended training resources and I really enjoyed that.

Bronwen:

And it gave me an idea of the sort of enabling of digital and how you

Bronwen:

could change the way you train people.

Bronwen:

And I was fascinated by how he could then use this in a higher

Bronwen:

education institution, but came back to the University.

Bronwen:

And I was involved in developing online and blended resources

Bronwen:

within the School of Education.

Bronwen:

And at the end of that project, I then had the opportunity to come back into

Bronwen:

research and research digital education.

Simone:

Great, and for people who have never been to

Simone:

of the University of Leeds.

Simone:

Could you describe how digital technology at the at the moment is

Simone:

at the heart of modern learning, even in face to face lectures or seminars?

Simone:

Because I think there's lots of misunderstanding about that.

Bronwen:

I think the first thing I'd say is that it clearly enables

Bronwen:

online and distance learning.

Bronwen:

We have an increasing number of courses at the University that means

Bronwen:

that people can learn with those without ever setting foot on campus.

Bronwen:

But I think we mustn't then forget that actually for campus students

Bronwen:

digital technology is at the heart of their experience in lots of different.

Bronwen:

First of all the virtual learning environment hosts all their teaching

Bronwen:

resources, these convenient, all sorts of formats, audio, video,

Bronwen:

podcasts, screencasts, and it's available anytime from anywhere and

Bronwen:

they can go back to it at anytime.

Bronwen:

We also encourage students to very much use external digital resources,

Bronwen:

I know in Medicine they use a lot of YouTube and we also encourage

Bronwen:

people to get involved in digital communities on Facebook and on Twitter.

Bronwen:

You can use digital to have a flipped learning approach where you might do the

Bronwen:

lecture digitally and then people come on to campus to have a face-to-face seminar.

Bronwen:

In the lecture theaters, you'll use lots of technology.

Bronwen:

We use clickers, we'll use Top Hat where students can vote.

Bronwen:

You might be able to get the students to show their screen at the front to

Bronwen:

show how they've answered a question.

Bronwen:

You could use padlet to get involved in comments or discussion forums,

Bronwen:

to all discuss with each other.

Bronwen:

There's some rooms that have been redesigned as collaborative

Bronwen:

lecture theatres where you can sit in groups and work together.

Bronwen:

Lots of the assessment and feedback is digital first.

Bronwen:

We use Turnitin and then, me as an educator, I do all my marking online.

Bronwen:

But I think the thing to say about this is that the use of digital

Bronwen:

technologies is it's got a several purposes it's to provide flexibility.

Bronwen:

can access these materials from anywhere anytime you can go back to them, but it's

Bronwen:

really to encourage active learning on the part of the student, collaborative ways of

Bronwen:

learning the co-production of knowledge.

Bronwen:

longer think of students as being blank slates.

Bronwen:

We want them to become independent learners and by using digital, they

Bronwen:

can then become lifelong learners.

Simone:

Yeah, thank you.

Simone:

maybe you you can talk a little bit about the evidence behind particularly

Simone:

active learning because, I think digital technology just helps

Simone:

the active learning process.

Simone:

And I think there's a lots of misunderstanding, sometimes

Simone:

even in government ministers, that digital equals online.

Simone:

And I think that's not always the case, a fully online learning is never the only

Simone:

way of learning for students on campus.

Simone:

But I think there's also misunderstanding of what digital can do and I think for

Simone:

us at the University of Leeds, It starts with the interactivity with students

Simone:

working together, instead of being the blank slate, like you just said.

Simone:

Digital technology can be incredibly helpful, but it doesn't start with, we

Simone:

have digital technology it's cheap and easy and now how are we going to use it?

Simone:

I think COVID somehow made that, that image of digital a little bit like that.

Simone:

So, so can you talk a little bit about the evidence behind the active

Simone:

interaction, the active learning compared to students just be in the blank slates

Simone:

and knowledge being imparted on them.

Bronwen:

Yeah, absolutely.

Bronwen:

I think that people think that digital technology is a way of replacing people

Bronwen:

or doing things cheaply, as you said, and it's not, there's a, pedagogical ideology

Bronwen:

behind this that says when learners can work together and can construct

Bronwen:

knowledge based on what they already know, and they can do this together.

Bronwen:

They're much more likely to have better outcomes.

Bronwen:

And there's been various different, research projects that have looked

Bronwen:

at the evidence as to whether active learning and whether having

Bronwen:

digitally enabled classrooms, has a positive impact on learning outcomes.

Bronwen:

And there are many different research projects that have found that.

Simone:

Yeah, I think there are, there's a huge number at the moment.

Simone:

and basically it's pretty clear that interactive learning is just a more

Simone:

effective way of learning, and then there are different ways of doing it.

Simone:

And I think that's sort of your research activity isn't it?

Simone:

Looking at how digital can be one form of active learning or digitally enabled

Simone:

can be one form of active learning.

Simone:

I think that,

Simone:

probably neatly gets us to the next question I wanted to ask you, the groups

Simone:

who've traditionally been underserved by higher education students from different

Simone:

backgrounds, maybe first in family, or are black or minority ethnic students.

Simone:

How does interactive learning them and how can digital

Simone:

innovation play a role in that.

Bronwen:

Digital can play a huge role in trying to serve minority

Bronwen:

groups if you want to call them that.

Bronwen:

When I went to university.

Bronwen:

It was just seen as traditional that you went, you did your three-year

Bronwen:

course, I got a grant I didn't have to work, but nowadays there's such a wide

Bronwen:

diverse cohort that goes to university.

Bronwen:

They have all sorts of different lifestyles.

Bronwen:

That mean they can't necessarily come to campus.

Bronwen:

They can't necessarily come to campus all day every day because

Bronwen:

they've got jobs, they might work part-time they might work full time.

Bronwen:

They might have children's care for, they might have sick parents, et cetera

Bronwen:

and I think digital can make that so much more flexible it means that people

Bronwen:

can work together outside of the traditional, during the day at campus,

Bronwen:

there's all sorts of different ways in which can learn outside of campus

Bronwen:

when they use digital resources.

Bronwen:

But I also think you can use that whole world of information that you get through a

Bronwen:

computer in order to search for the sorts of resources that the you identify

Bronwen:

with, that you want to learn about, that are your culture and your context.

Bronwen:

Not just the limited maybe that I got as a face-to-face student,

Bronwen:

when I went to university.

Simone:

Yeah, no, I think that's really clear and it's very exciting, actually.

Simone:

So can you talk a little bit about what we learned at the University of

Simone:

Leeds when we had to go rapidly, online at the beginning of the pandemic?

Simone:

What works?

Simone:

What do we want to keep and what worked maybe to some degree, but we don't want

Simone:

to keep given that we can go back to mostly face-to-face and have students

Simone:

back on our campuses and of course they want to see each other when they

Simone:

came to Leeds to be with each other to, can you talk a little bit about

Simone:

what we learned from the pandemic?

Bronwen:

It was a big change for everybody it happened almost overnight.

Bronwen:

And I think the phrase that people do use was the pivot to online.

Bronwen:

But I think one thing that we should be very proud of at Leeds is that I think

Bronwen:

we fared better than many institutions because our digital transformation was

Bronwen:

probably quite ahead of a lot of places.

Bronwen:

We also have got the Digital Education Service that was very quickly able

Bronwen:

to develop resources, to help people.

Bronwen:

We've also got lots of staff who've got skills and knowledge in this area

Bronwen:

because of our activities in the digital world prior to the pandemic but for

Bronwen:

many staff it was really difficult.

Bronwen:

And for many students, it was really difficult.

Bronwen:

Staff don't know how to teach online, and it's not about using the tech necessarily.

Bronwen:

It's about the pedagogy of teaching online, it's different and students

Bronwen:

don't know how to learn online.

Bronwen:

Many of them still don't might switch the camera on because they don't

Bronwen:

like to show their environment.

Bronwen:

Or they just don't like to see their own face all day it can

Bronwen:

be quite unnerving for people.

Bronwen:

But there are many issues related to the digital divide as well.

Bronwen:

We found this from the JISC survey , we found out that 13% of students

Bronwen:

that they didn't have a suitable device, but that wasn't just students.

Bronwen:

20% of staff said the same 15% of students and 13% of staff said they

Bronwen:

didn't have a safe, private area to work.

Bronwen:

And there are anecdotal evidence of, staff teaching in bedrooms or

Bronwen:

using an ironing board for a desk.

Bronwen:

It's just not an ideal way to be teaching and learning.

Bronwen:

And then, I think it was two thirds of students and just over half a staff

Bronwen:

that they have poor wifi connection.

Bronwen:

There were also some, positives.

Bronwen:

I think students really liked the flexibility.

Bronwen:

liked that almost everything was recorded, not just lectures.

Bronwen:

They now want blended it they've said that they don't want to go back to fully

Bronwen:

online, but they do want blended, they want the flexibility of being able to

Bronwen:

use online when it suits and not when it doesn't so simple things like, you can go to

Bronwen:

the library take a journal off the shelf and you can read it or you can do it from

Bronwen:

home by looking at it as an, e-resource.

Bronwen:

That's the sort of flexibility that students want.

Bronwen:

And these are the sorts of things we need to think about what was positive?

Bronwen:

What wasn't? But how do we then still try to tackle the digital divide so

Bronwen:

that we're not excluding anybody?

Simone:

Yeah, no, I think it's so important

Simone:

what you’re saying

Simone:

and let's go to something else that you're very heavily involved in an online

Simone:

course with students around the world, which clearly was developed as an online

Simone:

course, instead of everything we were just talking about the overnight pivot

Simone:

because clearly

Simone:

what we did then wasn't developed to be delivered online, hence

Simone:

the ironing boards and all kinds

Simone:

other things (LAUGHS) that if you start of course from scratch, that you know will be

Simone:

fully online, it's very different.

Simone:

So can you tell me a little bit about the course that you've designed

Simone:

and developed and how that's, how that's going, how it's working?

Bronwen:

Yeah.

Bronwen:

So in the school of education, we have a Master's in Digital Education.

Bronwen:

It's been around for a long time.

Bronwen:

I can't take the credit for starting it, but it's changed over the years.

Bronwen:

It's a two year part-time fully online, fully distance course and

Bronwen:

it's aimed at working professionals.

Bronwen:

This year, just for example, this year, the students come from South Korea,

Bronwen:

Singapore, Canada, Egypt, the UAE, India, China, as well as across the UK.

Bronwen:

And they all come together in synchronous sessions and share their experiences,

Bronwen:

but the vast majority of them never, ever set foot on campus, we encourage

Bronwen:

them to come to graduation and some do, but many never come at all.

Bronwen:

It's based, on a flipped learning approach where all the materials are provided

Bronwen:

at least a week beforehand on the VLE.

Bronwen:

Then we have a weekly seminar, but we have two.

Bronwen:

So we have one at lunchtime, one in the evening, because it's different

Bronwen:

time zones and we take a very active learning and dialogic learning approach.

Bronwen:

The students access the materials before we give them prompts of

Bronwen:

what sorts of things we're going to talk about in the sessions.

Bronwen:

And they keep notes in order to get involved in the discussion.

Bronwen:

then they come to the seminar is a mix of activities, discussions, group work.

Bronwen:

Then we give them a post seminar activity.

Bronwen:

And one of the assignments is a really, really great one.

Bronwen:

It's a collaborative group assignment.

Bronwen:

They go into groups of three and they're doing that at the moment.

Bronwen:

And part of the challenge is to use digital tools to collaborate

Bronwen:

across distance and across time.

Bronwen:

And I think what this course tells me is this is how a course can be

Bronwen:

incredibly successful when it's been planned before hand and all the

Bronwen:

people who come on the course and know that it's going to be online.

Bronwen:

And if we didn't offer it.

Bronwen:

The students wouldn't be able to come to Leeds because they cannot

Bronwen:

travel here and they don't live here

Simone:

Yeah so that brings me to a question that I'm dying to ask you.

Simone:

there's demand for education across the world.

Simone:

and it's vast there's so many places in the UK also where

Simone:

needs can't be met by existing bricks and mortar universities.

Simone:

But of course, especially in the Global South, that is a major problem

Simone:

and not just in a country like India, but it's really a global issue.

Simone:

How do you teach the world's population?

Simone:

I suspect you agree with me that the solution almost by necessity has

Simone:

to be in, in online degree programs and online delivery of education.

Simone:

Can you talk me through that?

Bronwen:

Yeah, totally agree.

Bronwen:

We just don't have, the world, doesn't have the resources to build the

Bronwen:

hundreds of universities that would be required in order to meet that demand.

Bronwen:

We can't, if you just take Leeds as an example, we can't keep

Bronwen:

expanding physically and nor would we particularly want to,

Bronwen:

So we have to do this in an online way, because even if you did expand Leeds

Bronwen:

University, for example, an awful lot of the students that you want to attract,

Bronwen:

can't travel and can't come and live here.

Bronwen:

So the only solution yes is totally is online learning.

Simone:

Yeah and there's, such a potential, not just in the scale of what

Simone:

we can do online, but I think also in the quality with all the innovation and

Simone:

technology, that's so rapidly expanding and changing and as experiences become

Simone:

more and more actually augmented compared to what you can do in a regular classroom.

Simone:

So you've been involved.

Simone:

I know in research with the University of Cape Town about the

Simone:

development of Digital Education.

Simone:

Can you tell me a little bit about that?

Simone:

What did you find in that project?

Bronwen:

So this was a collaboration between the University of Leeds

Bronwen:

and the University of Cape Town.

Bronwen:

And the project was called the Unbundled University.

Bronwen:

And so that was looking at how digital technology and marketization within higher

Bronwen:

education was leading to the unbundling of teaching and learning resources.

Bronwen:

So that was things like.

Bronwen:

MOOCs on FutureLearn and on Coursera looking at micro-credentials and a

Bronwen:

lot of institutions were doing that in partnership with private companies, which

Bronwen:

is where the marketization comes in.

Bronwen:

And we found that not all universities could participate in this because

Bronwen:

private companies only wanted really to partner with the highly

Bronwen:

ranked prestigious universities.

Bronwen:

So places like Leeds, places like Cape Town but what we also found was

Bronwen:

that for those institutions that even did partner and could develop online

Bronwen:

offerings, a lot of the students couldn't take advantage of it.

Bronwen:

So one of the issues in South Africa is it's the most

Bronwen:

unequal country in the world.

Bronwen:

So that's not necessarily poor it's the most unequal.

Bronwen:

And so you can provide courses, but certain groups of students

Bronwen:

just can't access them because they don't have a device.

Bronwen:

They probably went to a school where there were no computers, so they don't

Bronwen:

have any level of digital literacy data is the most expensive across

Bronwen:

the whole of Africa in South Africa.

Bronwen:

And so really what it was doing was providing additional good

Bronwen:

quality provision to those students who already had provision.

Bronwen:

So it was increasing inequalities.

Simone:

Yep and, and what lessons can we learn from that project here in Leeds?

Simone:

Because I'm sure there are lessons also for us in the Global North.

Bronwen:

Yeah, I think there's a number of lessons.

Bronwen:

I think one of the things we really do have to think about is the digital divide

Bronwen:

and we know we have one at Leeds, well as all of the universities in the UK.

Bronwen:

It's not just a Global South problem so that when we introduce

Bronwen:

digital technology, we have to think well, why are we doing this?

Bronwen:

What's the pedagogical reason for this and who might we be excluding?

Bronwen:

So we need start thinking about whenever we design digital education

Bronwen:

and needs to be more accessible, we need to make sure that it's, we

Bronwen:

don't have lots and lots of videos.

Bronwen:

We can make sure that people can download things rather than having to

Bronwen:

work online, making things accessible through subtitles, those sorts of things.

Bronwen:

And for campus students, we want to use digital technology to enhance.

Bronwen:

And so we don't want to exclude anybody here either.

Bronwen:

So we've already started loaning devices, improving Wi-Fi in

Bronwen:

university accommodation, creating more collaborative spaces for

Bronwen:

students to work together on campus.

Bronwen:

And they're all fantastic things.

Bronwen:

We just need to keep doing those, maybe work with local landlords to

Bronwen:

improve wifi in rented accommodation.

Bronwen:

It's those sorts of things that will really make the digital technology

Bronwen:

that we use, it will enhance it for everybody, not just for some.

Simone:

I think that's absolutely pivotal because it can cross that

Simone:

divide but if we are not mindful of where that is and what it means,

Simone:

we could actually make it larger.

Simone:

Thank you for listening to this World Changers

Simone:

podcast from the University of Leeds.

Simone:

I am Professor Simone Buitendijk and I am in conversation with Dr.

Simone:

Bronwen Swinnterton to hear about her research into digital education.

Simone:

So an issue that you haven't talked about yet is digital literacy.

Simone:

I'm sure that somehow enters into this as well.

Simone:

It's not just what we can provide students, but also their

Simone:

ability to use the technology.

Simone:

So how do we tackle issues of less literacy and maybe people who are

Simone:

just not used to using devices?

Bronwen:

I think one of the things I started thinking about recently was

Bronwen:

we do an ILT course for people when they first come to the university.

Bronwen:

to assess their language skills and if their language skills are

Bronwen:

not up to scratch then we help them,

Bronwen:

we support them to improve those language skills.

Bronwen:

I think we could do that sort of thing with digital literacy.

Bronwen:

I think we could try to make sure that everybody has a certain

Bronwen:

level of digital literacy.

Bronwen:

shouldn't assume just because they're young people that

Bronwen:

they know how to learn online.

Bronwen:

They might know how to go onto WhatsApp and TikTok, which I don't know how to do (LAUGHS)

Bronwen:

But it's that assumption that young people are digital natives and all the evidence

Bronwen:

suggests that's just not the case at all.

Bronwen:

So we shouldn't assume that have those literacy skills

Bronwen:

and we should provide them.

Bronwen:

We should provide training and support in them.

Simone:

Yeah.

Simone:

Yeah, absolutely.

Simone:

there's a world of possibilities there and what about the teachers?

Simone:

Because I think we're often also easily assuming that especially younger teachers

Simone:

even older teachers will be able to use whatever is available to them.

Simone:

How do we ensure that they know how to use the digital technology

Simone:

to the best of their ability?

Bronwen:

Again, I think it's about training and support.

Bronwen:

It's about encouraging us all to help each other.

Bronwen:

When the pandemic first hit one of the things we did in the School of

Bronwen:

Education was such a Teams channel that was called Online Teaching and

Bronwen:

people just posed questions all the time.

Bronwen:

Sometimes it was about technical things, but a lot of it was, how

Bronwen:

do you think I could arrange this?

Bronwen:

What sort of approach might I use when I'm trying to do this sort of activity? And it was really,

Bronwen:

really useful so we developed this community of practice I think that's

Bronwen:

what we need to do across the University.

Bronwen:

We already do it, but we need to keep doing it.

Simone:

Yeah and I think you've already answered the question in bits and

Simone:

pieces, but let me ask you again.

Simone:

What does the best of both worlds look like for students who are actually on campus?

Simone:

Because one thing we

Simone:

learned in the pandemic, all of us everywhere is that people

Simone:

want to be together and maybe not all the time, maybe not in the same

Simone:

way as they did before the pandemic, every hour of their working week.

Simone:

But for students who are in Leeds they want to meet up,

Simone:

they want to see each other.

Simone:

And so how do we provide them with the pedagogically best experience the

Simone:

evidence-based learning and teaching while we're also enabling them to meet?

Simone:

What is the best of both worlds look like?

Bronwen:

I think it's about deciding through again training and support

Bronwen:

teaching our staff to understand what can be done digitally?

Bronwen:

What is best done digitally and what is best on face-to-face, how you can

Bronwen:

use digital technology to enhance those face-to-face experiences.

Bronwen:

I think for a student now coming to Leeds, they would expect it to be

Bronwen:

blended and they should, by the time they leave have all those digital skills

Bronwen:

ready to take into the workplace in the workplace it's a blended approach.

Simone:

Yeah.

Simone:

No I think that so important, saying that we need to prepare them for a workplace

Simone:

where nothing is only face-to-face and paper-based, and very quickly changing

Simone:

in all kinds of directions and for our students to be completely able to not

Simone:

just follow, but also to lead on that, that that would be such an asset for them.

Simone:

So that leads me to neatly, I think to the last question, as a World Changer,

Simone:

as an essayist in our series, how optimistic are you that in the next

Simone:

decade, the University of Leeds, and of course, other universities too,

Simone:

can begin to offer digital courses so that people everywhere, anywhere

Simone:

in the world can have an opportunity to participate in higher education?

Bronwen:

Well, I've always been very proud of being, first a student and

Bronwen:

then a member of staff at Leeds.

Bronwen:

I really am proud of their digital offering because I think it's so

Bronwen:

far ahead of lots of other places.

Bronwen:

But one thing that the pandemic has done is bring to the surface,

Bronwen:

those issues of digital inequality.

Bronwen:

And it gives me hope that now that we can see it, we can do something about it.

Bronwen:

I think there's a long way to go until everybody can have equal

Bronwen:

access to online courses be able to use them in equally effective ways.

Bronwen:

But we need to keep researching, disseminating our research and

Bronwen:

using digital technology to help solve these problems where we can.

Simone:

Yeah no and you so underscore my feeling that's the University

Simone:

strategy, of course is what we start with, but using all the

Simone:

technology and the innovation to

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yeah, to implement that even more forcefully and with that global outlook is

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what it's all about and I agree with you.

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I think that digital technologies and the online opportunities that

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can really help us reach, reach out to partners across the world,

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including in the, in the Global South.

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So thank you so much Bronwen for being at the University of Leeds and for

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doing the amazing work you're doing and last but not least of course for

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writing your essay and for this interview today, it's been really wonderful.

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Thank you so much.

Bronwen:

Thank you.

Bronwen:

I've really enjoyed it.

Bronwen:

And I've really enjoyed writing the essay and being part of the whole process.

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Great.

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Thank you.

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Thank you for listening to this podcast from the University of Leeds, to find out

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more about the work of our early career researchers and to read essays written by

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World Changer researchers, please go to the World Changers page on the University

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website, details can be found in the information that accompanies this podcast.

Links