To Be and Do Podcast

Guest: Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross

Dr. Gross’s book

"Not Just Sunday: Reimagine the Reach and Rhythms of Your Church"

The Rev. Dr. Jevon Caldwell-Gross has been a transformational ministry thought leader for 2 decades. Serving in diverse contexts, from urban neighborhoods to multicultural suburban communities. Dr. J is known for his unique ability to connect with a wide range of audiences and make the gospel both accessible and practical for everyday life.

His journey has included serving at one of the largest United Methodist churches in the country, St. Luke’s United Methodist Church in Indianapolis, IN, where he led as Teaching and Online Community Pastor, helping to redefine and expand the church’s digital footprint to reach people around the world.

Dr. J now serves as the Director of Church Revitalization and New Developments for the Indiana Conference of the United Methodist Church, where he resources and supports more than 640 congregations across the state. In this role, he partners with pastors, leaders, and communities to help churches navigate a rapidly changing ministry landscape with clarity, courage, and innovation. His work includes developing strategies for revitalization, fostering new church developments, and equipping churches for effective ministry in both physical and digital spaces.

An ordained pastor, author, and professor, he is driven by a clear mission: to equip churches and congregational leaders for relevant, sustainable, and transformative ministry. He holds an M.Div. from Princeton Theological Seminary and a D.Min. from Wesley Theological Seminary, where he focused on transformational leadership. 

When he’s not filming a mobile message or developing the next online sermon series, Dr. J is often designing new training materials for clergy and laity, coaching pastors through revitalization challenges, or sitting across from a leader at a local coffee shop with something hot in hand, dreaming, discerning, and imagining what God might be calling the church to do next.

Host: Phil Amerson

Show Notes

Welcome back to the To Be and Do podcast, where host Phil Amerson explores how authentic connections, interdependence, and transformational leadership shape communities and faith. In this inspiring episode, Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross joins Phil to share his personal journey from pastoral work to academic leadership, and unpack his insights on creating more inclusive, engaged, and evolving communities.

Dr. Gross, currently the Director of Revitalization and Church Development for the Indiana Annual Conference of the United Methodist Church, reflects on his experiences—from his formative years at Kalamazoo College, to innovative ministry roles, and his approach to storytelling through video and writing. Whether you lead in a faith setting or simply care about belonging, growth, and genuine community, this episode is packed with wisdom.

Three Major Takeaways:

1. Transformational Leadership Fosters True Diversity

Dr. Gross shares a powerful story from his time at Kalamazoo College, describing how visionary leadership fundamentally changed the institution. Through the efforts of President Dr. Wilson Oyelaran, the college reinvented itself—transforming recruitment, faculty tenure, and campus culture—not only to look diverse, but to live diversity as an essential part of academic and personal growth. The process didn’t diminish excellence, it elevated it. This model demonstrates that organizations (including churches) thrive by embracing evolution, not fearing change.

2. The Most Meaningful Faith Experiences Happen Beyond Sunday Morning

Drawing from ministry research and personal observation, Dr. Gross explains how transformative and formative spiritual moments often occur outside the traditional Sunday worship setting. Whether connecting at a soccer field or in everyday life, churches—and any caring community—should focus resources on meeting people in the places where life truly unfolds. His new book, It’s Not Just Sunday, encourages leaders and congregations to see discipleship as a daily, relational journey, rather than a single weekly event.

3. Storytelling Bridges Gaps and Sparks Change

Dr. Gross highlights his passion for storytelling—through preaching, video, and writing—as a key method for communicating faith and building bridges. Sharing authentic stories, including difficult ones like his reflection on being a Black leader after the murder of George Floyd, invites broader connection and healing. These stories offer pathways for church and society to become more present, relevant, and responsive to real human experiences.

Join Phil and Dr. Gross in this episode for an authentic conversation on leadership, change, and belonging. Don’t forget to check out Dr. Gross’s book

"Not Just Sunday: Reimagine the Reach and Rhythms of Your Church"

and his video reels for more stories and insights!

Phil Amerson:

Hello, everyone. We're back with the To Be and Do podcast, where we talk about the importance of interdependence and not just independence, where we talk about the importance of weaving new connections among people, about building bridges, and boy, do I have a wonderful guest to help us with that today. Dr. Javon Caldwell. Gross is, well, he's many, many things. I don't know where to start, whether a great preacher, author, professor, consultant. Javon, where do I begin to talk? Well, I know your current role, if I've got it right, is director of revitalization and church development for the Indiana Annual Conference of the United Methodist Church. Can you get all that on one business card?

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

We have tried, and it does fit. Surprisingly, it did. The topic of conversation. True story.

Phil Amerson:

True story. That's great. Well, tell us, tell us about yourself and your family. I, I know you are married. You're one of those fortunate people that has a preacher for a spouse. So tell us about your family.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

Yeah. So my wife and I, Nicole Caldwell Gross is the senior pastor of Noblesville First United Methodist Church. And, and we've been in the Indiana conference for seven years thus far. We started off in the New Jersey conference, and we were there for man around 12 or 13 years. She was the director of missions and outreach and I was on the local church and now we have switched roles. Now I'm with the conference and now she's at a local church. But we also spent seven years together at St Luke'sout of Methodist Church church located right here in, right, right here in, in Indianapolis. So our ministry journeys has taken us to different cities at different places, and here we are.

Phil Amerson:

Wow. Well, and I, I left out all of your remarkable education work. I, I, I know. I think you did your demon at Wesley Seminary and then Seminary of Princeton, I think. And, and you went to this little school up in Michigan, K College. Well, Kellogg. I mean, Kalamazoo College.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

Kalamazoo College, that's correct.

Phil Amerson:

And as I told you recently, my grandson hopes to graduate from K College in May. What a small world.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

Small world. Small world.

Phil Amerson:

Yeah. And, and it's a remarkable. Well, all of those institutions are really fine schools, but we were talking a bit about K college and the transformation you saw there in recent times.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

So Kalamazoo College. Let me just say this. It was such a formative experience, me growing up in terms of, in ministry and even shaping me who I am as a person. It's a very academically rigorous place. And I've always believed in terms of my own ministry, of how to apply that in my own work as a theologian, as a writer, as a thinker. But one of the ways that it's also shaped me is really in terms of leadership. So as a student there, Kalamazoo College was a predominantly, predominantly small white liberal arts college. Um, and again, highly rigorous, great reputation.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

But what was interesting was that after I, you know, left Kalamazoo College, they invited me to come on to be a part of the board.

Phil Amerson:

Wow.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

And they gave me a totally different insight into education, especially higher education, because there's a part that you learn as a student and then there's another part that you learn.

Phil Amerson:

Right.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

Gave me a great, a great understanding, but it gave me a front row seat to one of the greatest examples of transformational leadership that I've ever been a part of. Our, our leader at the time was Dr. Wilson Oy Larin. And the research and through surveys, we found that many of our white students actually did not want to be a part of a homogeneous environment as it related to their learning, that they wanted to be in a more diverse environment. And so Dr. Wilson Oye laron invited us to think about if we're creating leaders for an ever changing world, that then in order to prepare all of our students to be effective leaders out in the world, they needed to learn how to do that in an environment that represented the world in which we live. And so we made. Yes, so we made efforts to make the college more diverse, not just for the sake of diversity, but for the sake of our mission and our vision.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

And what's interesting is, is that again, this was almost 20 years ago. The same language that, you know, we hear now around those same values was again, this is 20 years ago. Because the fear of predominantly white liberal arts college that was academically rigorous, committing to diversity was synonymous with lowering its standards. And it was interesting kind of hearing people's again, this was 20 years ago. And so watching Dr. Wilson Oye Laron as a transformational leader, first extend the colleges recruiting efforts to communities that it never went to because it didn't go to those communities, because it was believed that people in different communities could not handle the academic rigor of accountants of college. And so she reshaped the narrative. And in terms of these are great students everywhere.

Phil Amerson:

Yes.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

And it's our job to at least start off believing in them. And so we created relationships with different high schools. We had donors who were willing to, willing to give to support the students once they got on campus. We changed even how professors received tenure that they had to do their research that represented the diversity in the academic field in which they studied, whether if it was biology, math, or business. She wanted to see that you were culturally competent holistically in the academic area that you studied. We changed the kind of food that we offered in the cafeteria. She changed the people who were working security. I mean, in every.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

The entire. Now, here's the. Here's the thing about it. I remember going back as a board member, and I remember thinking, this is not the same Kalamazoo College that I remembered. But then I remember thinking, but that's a good thing, because the college had changed and evolved into this beautiful place where people from literally all around the world came to receive this academic education and to see a person whose vision and to see it through. Because sometimes people's fear of any kind of diversity is that things won't be the same. But that's not always a bad thing, because if anything is to grow and evolve it. You know, even as people, you know, we grow and evolve.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

I have a lot more gray than I did five years ago. Right now.

Phil Amerson:

Wait a minute.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

Yeah, right. But. But just because I've changed and evolved, it doesn't mean that there's been a process of devaluing what was there. But every institution, whether if it's the church or the academy or our communities, I think a lot of this behind it is the fear of change as opposed to looking at the possibilities of evolution. And so I just witnessed a great transformation.

Phil Amerson:

Phil Amerson:

As a matter of fact, Dr. Carlisle Stewart is representative of so much of the good that came out of. Out of that time. When Garrett said, enough, we're going to stop. And as you say, excellence was only increased. It wasn't. There wasn't a damage. Yes.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

Yes.

Phil Amerson:

I love that. We. We need to tell those stories more often.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

Yeah, we do. And you said a great phrase, excellence is increased. And those are the stories we don't tell.

Phil Amerson:

That's great. So tell me a little bit. I know. I know you. You've done well. I left out your. Your videographer or at least a storyteller on film. Tell me some about how that's evolved and what you've learned in that.

Phil Amerson:

And by the way, folks, if you're listening, just go to YouTube or other places and. And type in his name, and you'll get a dozen, two dozen options to hear some good preaching.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

You know, in. In terms of. So most of the work that I do, and I heard a preacher say this, but even though we might be in different fields, most of us have a couple different gifts that we operate in. And, you know, whether, you know, especially as a, you know, preacher pastor, whether I'm writing or doing videos or I'm. I'm really just communicating. And so one of the really joys that I get is storytelling. And while I was at St. Luke's you know, we did this in sort of an innovative.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

Now, I don't even say innovative. It was innovative for us is that part of my role was the second preacher on staff, which just meant whenever Pastor Rob was not available, I would be the one called to, you know, stand in in his place. But we also looked at what are some of the other ways that we might be able to. To tell different stories or to tell the gospel in different ways, you know, just by using video. So it didn't have to be on a Sunday morning. It could be around Advent. It could be around something happening in our nation. You know, one of the most watched and shared videos we did was my responding to how it felt as a black leader in a predominantly white environment after George Floyd was murdered.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

And. And so, again, it wasn't something that I preached on a Sunday morning, but here's a way for us to communicate and to tell a story. And so that's just been one of my. Just been. One of my passions is just finding creative ways to tell stories. Whether that's through writing or through being a professor or through consulting. It's really all just about storytelling for me.

Phil Amerson:

Well, I was. I almost introduced you as Pastor Jay or Look for his reels, But. But. But you just mentioned your book. I think it's not just Sunday. Tell us a little. It's. It's out now.

Phil Amerson:

People can get it.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

Yeah. So this was. This was something I've been working on.

Phil Amerson:

For probably, and it's one of many books by the way.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

Yeah, but this is, this is. This is my first solo one. And, man, it was a journey writing it, but it was a joy because it was really based on research that I looked at through St. Luke's and whether through consulting, working with other conferences and really looking at. Most churches are geared and put most of their resources towards Sunday morning, whether it's volunteer resources, financial resources, people resources. And yet, when we look at the data, most people, especially new people, they're getting connected to our churches outside of Sunday morning.

Phil Amerson:

Right.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

And how people are developing and growing their faith. You know, we asked the question, you know, where have your most transformative experience with God been? And I've been in several different environments, and rarely will people say it's been on Sunday morning. You know, they say, they say all of these other things, right?

Phil Amerson:

Watch out. Watch out.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

You know, when they say when I go camping or when I'm, you know, when I'm out in nature or with so and so when I'm with, let's say. Okay, so you mean to tell me that we're creating and using all of our resources around places where people are not having their most transformative experiences? So, so the book really begins with the question is, you know, how do we use people's everyday lives as places of transformation and discipleship? And it really looks at how do we help people find God and experience church and community, you know, for the other 164 hours of the week. So, again, it's very practical, and it's meant for, for leaders and churches to use as, as groups and not just individual studies. No, let's. Let's share it with common language so that as a congregation, you can move together with some common language and some common alignment.

Phil Amerson:

That's great. Well, I, I remember not long ago, I saw one of your reels, your videos from a soccer match. A soccer game.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

That's right. That's right. That's right. Because, you know, for instance, so we have three kids, and we spend most of our time in cars and at the soccer fields. And what, what do most churches say? What? We can get young people. We can get young people. That's what. That's.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

That is the growing thing out now. But when I was at the soccer field, it was packed. It was packed with young families and young kids. The, the, the parking lot was packed. So now we have the big. So now we have to ask the question, how can we be present as hundreds of families are in their cars parked at soccer fields instead of just asking, how do we get Them in the parking lot from the soccer field, the parking lot of the church. Right. How about, how about you first meet them where they are? So what are the things that you might be able to do and to ask? And how do you be present there, whether through a podcast or some, some other way where you can make some kind of connection with them in the parking lot? Everybody's trying to figure out, how do we get them there? No, you figure out as a church, how do you get there? Like, that's the, that's the, that's the real question of discipleship, and that's the real question of being right.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

How do we be the church outside of Sunday morning?

Phil Amerson:

Yeah, one of my, one of our friends is Michael Mather, who's now the pastor in Boulder, First United Methodist. And he changed the benediction to no longer say, go take Christ into the world, but to say, go discover what Christ is already doing in the world all around.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

Right, that's right. I love that. I love that. I love that. But it's, but it's a, it's a countercultural way of how we understand the church, and it's a countercultural way of how people experience faith and especially how the church, you know, how we, how can we be present in the world? Know, even when I talk about what it means to be a volunteer in terms of how can you equip people to go out into the places they're already going? You know, they're already going to work on Monday morning. They're already going to these places. How do you help them live out the gospel and live out your values and beliefs and those pl. Before you ask them to sign up for another thing, help them to live as disciples of Jesus Christ in the places where they already are.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross:

Start there first.

Phil Amerson:

Well, our time has just slid by too quickly. But good, good on us because we have another one we're going to record. So we're going to talk with Dr. Calbo Gross more about his work in revitalization and his, his theology. He's already started down the road, but I know he's got a lot more to say about his theology of the church and evangelism. And so thank you, Javon. Wonderful visiting with you. And we'll be back in the next episode to talk with Dr.

Phil Amerson:

Caldwell Gross. And for now, this is Phil Emerson encouraging you to find ways to discover where Christ is already at work in the world and make that a piece of understanding our belonging together at God's table with all people. God bless and so long. For now.