Getting married? Important topics to cover during the engagement phase!
Quote of the episode: "...wherever you are right now you're starting off in your life, just forgive yourself for anything you may not know, you're not uncommon, you know, most people were not taught anything. So what you can do today, wherever you may be, is take that step forward." (43:07)
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Welcome to the Enjoy More 30s Family Finance
Voiceover Audio:podcast. The only podcast dedicated to making life more
Voiceover Audio:enjoyable for young families by hitting on the financial topics
Voiceover Audio:that tend to weigh on us, stress us out, and distract our focus
Voiceover Audio:from simply enjoying life.
Joseph Okaly:Hello and welcome to the Enjoy More 30s Family
Joseph Okaly:Finance podcast. We have a really cool episode for you
Joseph Okaly:today as we transition between seasons. And this is actually a
Joseph Okaly:recording of a guest spot that I did on The Wedding Chaplain
Joseph Okaly:podcast with David Anderson. This is a really, really cool
Joseph Okaly:episode as nobody really thinks about finances going all the way
Joseph Okaly:back to the engagement phase. But this is where you have the
Joseph Okaly:opportunity to really set and align the goals that you may
Joseph Okaly:have with the person that you want to spend the rest of your
Joseph Okaly:life with. So check it out, as well as if you know anybody who
Joseph Okaly:is engaged, anybody's getting married. The Wedding Chaplain
Joseph Okaly:podcast is a really really unique offering out there. So
Joseph Okaly:you can check that out as well with David Anderson. Hope you
Joseph Okaly:enjoy and I'll talk to you soon.
David Anderson:Well, I am so excited today to have a
David Anderson:wonderful guest on the wedding Chaplain podcast. His name is
David Anderson:Joe Okaly. And, Joe, thank you so much for being with us today.
Joseph Okaly:Yeah, absolutely. David, as we kind of shared with
Joseph Okaly:you beforehand, before we got recording here. I'm really,
Joseph Okaly:really excited to talk to you today about what you've kind of
Joseph Okaly:touched on. So yeah, thank you very much for having me.
David Anderson:You're very welcome. Joe has his own
David Anderson:podcast. And you may be actually listening to this on his
David Anderson:platform, he has the Enjoy More 30s Family Finance podcast. So
David Anderson:whether you're listening to this on The Wedding Chaplain podcast
David Anderson:or his podcast, we were just so thankful for you tuning in
David Anderson:today. And whether you're a listener to me or not, I'm a
David Anderson:wedding minister. And I reached out to Joe, for one specific
David Anderson:area, it is the area of finances in engaged couples. We deal with
David Anderson:a lot of engaged couples and our conversations with those couples
David Anderson:usually are somewhere in the area of 9, 10, 12 months,
David Anderson:sometimes longer. But it is always an interesting
David Anderson:conversation when I bring up the area of finances to these
David Anderson:couples who are preparing for marriage. And many times it's
David Anderson:not the thing that they've thought about. They might have a
David Anderson:budget for their wedding, they might have thought about what
David Anderson:they're going to do with their finances after the wedding. But
David Anderson:overall, it usually looks like a good topic that needs to be
David Anderson:discussed with these folks. So Joe, that is why you are here
David Anderson:today. So tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do,
David Anderson:and all of that.
Joseph Okaly:Sure, absolutely. So I've been an advisor now
Joseph Okaly:going on 15 years. I interned at New Horizons where I am now in
Joseph Okaly:college. And I've been here ever since. So this is this is what
Joseph Okaly:I've been trained to do for a long time here. And basically,
Joseph Okaly:you know why I think today's discussion is so fantastic, is
Joseph Okaly:because what I found as I grew in my career, and I learned
Joseph Okaly:these things to help our clients to help themselves with their
Joseph Okaly:money and their finances, and their planning and all this
Joseph Okaly:stuff that became second nature to me is that nobody else really
Joseph Okaly:gets this information, especially people that are
Joseph Okaly:younger. So you know, you go to school, you learn Shakespeare
Joseph Okaly:and algebra, but then you you get a job and you have money to
Joseph Okaly:manage and all this kind of stuff. And nobody really gave
Joseph Okaly:you any training. So you know, I love working specifically with
Joseph Okaly:younger people, because I know how much I can help them from an
Joseph Okaly:early age get on the right path. And so when you get in the early
Joseph Okaly:path from the right age, it just makes a life a lot more
Joseph Okaly:enjoyable, a lot easier to manage. So, you know, I've been
Joseph Okaly:married now this is a will be like 10 years, 10 years in, in
Joseph Okaly:July here with my wife Lauren, and we have two fantastic kids,
Joseph Okaly:five year old Avery and two year old Noah. So I'm on the same
Joseph Okaly:journey as a lot of people are getting ready to take here who
Joseph Okaly:might be listening to this. And so again, I'm happy to share
Joseph Okaly:some information because you're absolutely right, David, the
Joseph Okaly:financial part of it is something that is unfortunately
Joseph Okaly:overlooked too many times.
David Anderson:Right. Well, let's start start with we'll
David Anderson:start with the good stuff. First. Start with your your
David Anderson:marriage. He's been married 10 years. Do you remember where
David Anderson:like how you propose your wife? You remember how that story
David Anderson:went?
Joseph Okaly:Yeah, yeah. So my wife and I are both really big
Joseph Okaly:Disney people. And so I wound up actually meeting my wife
Joseph Okaly:freshman year of college back in 2004. So I've known my wife for
Joseph Okaly:quite a long time, even though we've been married for 10 years,
Joseph Okaly:but this year, I'll also know her for half of my life. So it's
Joseph Okaly:a it's a substantial year here and so we're big Disney people
Joseph Okaly:and we took my wife convinced me to take a vacation to Disney
Joseph Okaly:before we had kids. Which at the time I thought was just
Joseph Okaly:craziness that didn't make any sense to me. But she, of course
Joseph Okaly:is 100% right as she's been many times over these last 10 years.
Joseph Okaly:And so we went down to Disney and I had my my sister came down
Joseph Okaly:as well with her friend and I had her kind of smuggle the
Joseph Okaly:engagement ring down. And then instead of doing in the park,
Joseph Okaly:what I decided to do is at the character breakfast, breakfast,
Joseph Okaly:so Pluto came out after breakfast with with an
Joseph Okaly:engagement ring on a special platter that he opened up and
Joseph Okaly:then I, you know, got down on one knee and proposed proposed
Joseph Okaly:there. So it was a it was a little bit a little bit
Joseph Okaly:different than your your typical, I would say Disney
Joseph Okaly:Disney proposal. And, but it was a lot of fun.
David Anderson:No, that's a great story. That's a very cool
David Anderson:story. So did she know that was coming? You have an idea that
David Anderson:was coming?
Joseph Okaly:No. So actually, the whole breakfast I would I
Joseph Okaly:couldn't eat because I was so nervous about just doing it. And
Joseph Okaly:so she's, you know, berating me through breakfast of like, "Why
Joseph Okaly:aren't you eating, you're gonna be hungry the whole day, like
Joseph Okaly:you gotta". And I'm like, just hold on, hold on. It's common.
Joseph Okaly:It's common. So.
David Anderson:So you had no idea when Pluto was going to
David Anderson:show up, he was just going to be random, or you kind of had an
David Anderson:idea.
Joseph Okaly:I planned it all out ahead of time. So I had
Joseph Okaly:talked to the, the, the manager of the restaurant and, and all
Joseph Okaly:that kind of stuff ahead of time. So we, you know, I chose
Joseph Okaly:Pluto out of out of who was going to be there that day, and
Joseph Okaly:so on. So yeah, it was a lot of planning a fair amount of
Joseph Okaly:stress, but it ended in a memorable moment. So I think I
Joseph Okaly:think I wanted to do it the same way again.
David Anderson:Very cool. So that, um, that's a beautiful
David Anderson:little fairy tale story. But taking you back a little bit.
David Anderson:Did you? Did you remember in your engagement season talking
David Anderson:about money? Like how do you remember that? Or was this
David Anderson:something that sort of evolved later once you were married?
David Anderson:Like, what what kind of money discussions did you guys have in
David Anderson:your early relationship days?
Joseph Okaly:Yeah, so I think when people first start out, and
Joseph Okaly:they're just dating, obviously, everything is completely
Joseph Okaly:separate, there's really no overlap at all. And then when
Joseph Okaly:you get engaged, and you have to start planning a wedding and
Joseph Okaly:money is part of planning a wedding, now you start kind of
Joseph Okaly:doing some of a crossover. And even for me, when we started
Joseph Okaly:out, you know, I was also starting out with with my job
Joseph Okaly:more or less still. So there wasn't, you know, there wasn't
Joseph Okaly:as much detail, I guess, as, as it, you know, grew to later on,
Joseph Okaly:but the important things kind of ahead of time were that you
Joseph Okaly:start having those discussions. So, you know, like, you know,
Joseph Okaly:when Lewis and Clark, they knew they both want to be explorers
Joseph Okaly:and go across the country. But if one wanted to go to Texas and
Joseph Okaly:one want to go up to you know, what would be Washington State,
Joseph Okaly:those are two different things. So you're both you need to have
Joseph Okaly:some idea goals wise of what direction that we're that you're
Joseph Okaly:going in. And finances is a part of that. So like when Lauren and
Joseph Okaly:I had discussions during engagements, or during our
Joseph Okaly:engagement time, it was, you know, where do we want to live?
Joseph Okaly:And, you know, do we want a family? And, you know, what kind
Joseph Okaly:of house do you see yourself in and, you know, so you have to,
Joseph Okaly:you have to have, in my opinion, some of those conversations
Joseph Okaly:directionally in the engagement phase, so that you can start,
Joseph Okaly:you know, getting a good idea of okay, are we both want to get
Joseph Okaly:married, but we do we want to get married in the same way. And
Joseph Okaly:you'll go on the adventure in the same exact direction, kind
Joseph Okaly:of a deal.
David Anderson:Right? And that is listen that that idea of
David Anderson:goals, I think that's probably the most important part, because
David Anderson:a lot of times when I when I have the discussion about
David Anderson:finances, and I tell all of my couples upfront, I am not Joe
David Anderson:Okaly. I am not a financial planner. They you know, I send
David Anderson:them to, you know, go get a book on this or talk to somebody, I'm
David Anderson:more interested, I guess in the emotional side of it. What did
David Anderson:your parents do? Your family of origin? How did they handle
David Anderson:money? Did they fight over money, all those? So? So that's
David Anderson:where I sort of land with him. But what is interesting in what
David Anderson:you just said, was that idea of goals. And oftentimes when I'm
David Anderson:talking to couples about money, it's not really a goal
David Anderson:conversation. It is a now conversation, like, we pay for
David Anderson:the mortgage. And so right now, he puts in, she puts in, we pay
David Anderson:for the car he puts in he put you know, it's the "How are you
David Anderson:paying the bills today?" Talk me a little bit more about that
David Anderson:idea of goals. What's the difference between today
David Anderson:financial idea and a goal centered financial idea?
Joseph Okaly:Yeah, so some of the some of those things overlap
Joseph Okaly:to some degree, like what you were saying because, you know,
Joseph Okaly:when you talk about, okay, who's paying the mortgage, or you
Joseph Okaly:know, how much are they saving, like any goal that you have
Joseph Okaly:usually requires some kind of financial aspect. So if it's a
Joseph Okaly:couple that doesn't have a home yet, but that wants to buy one,
Joseph Okaly:what their credit scores are, are kind of important for that.
Joseph Okaly:How much extra cash flow they have right now is kind of
Joseph Okaly:important to that. If they want to, you know, go on vacations or
Joseph Okaly:they want to live in a bigger house down the road. You know,
Joseph Okaly:you need cash flow that supports some degree of savings still,
Joseph Okaly:you know. So budgeting and bill payment, these are things that
Joseph Okaly:kind of tie into those longer term goals, because you're
Joseph Okaly:right, you know, it's like, what are you doing right now? But
Joseph Okaly:also now the goal, say, Okay, this is what I want to do in the
Joseph Okaly:future, and is what am I doing right? What I'm doing right now
Joseph Okaly:will that be able to adapt to allow me to do some of those
Joseph Okaly:things in the future. So, you know, we've come across, I mean
Joseph Okaly:money, whether you're engaged, or whether you've been married
Joseph Okaly:for 10 years, it can be one of the biggest drivers of
Joseph Okaly:relationship stress. And so the earlier that you can try to
Joseph Okaly:address it and talk about it. Money has been this like big
Joseph Okaly:taboo thing in our society where it's like not proper to talk to
Joseph Okaly:people about money. And that's the the way that you, you kind
Joseph Okaly:of stay in the dark about you got to talk about it, you have
Joseph Okaly:to ask questions, in my opinion, and get some of that clarity. So
Joseph Okaly:I mean, we've heard of people engaged, where all of a sudden
Joseph Okaly:they find out their partner, you know, has a bunch of credit card
Joseph Okaly:debt, and you know, a terrible credit score, and they could see
Joseph Okaly:like, hey, you know, this person may not be able to do the things
Joseph Okaly:that I want to do with the person I marry in my life kind
Joseph Okaly:of a deal. So, you know, it's really important to align those
Joseph Okaly:goals and then start talking about finances. And in my
Joseph Okaly:opinion, at least, to make those finances kind of as joint as
Joseph Okaly:possible as you start progressing into, you know,
Joseph Okaly:married life.
David Anderson:Okay, so your it sounds like you're an advocate
David Anderson:for joint accounts. I hear. I hear from both sides. I hear a
David Anderson:lot of folks who they keep it very separate. And, and I always
David Anderson:pressed them, I pressed them on this was like, okay, when are
David Anderson:you like, the day after the wedding, a month after the
David Anderson:wedding, a year after the wedding? When when do you guys
David Anderson:plan on going joint? And many times, they're sort of like,
David Anderson:well, I don't know if we are going to go joint. So talk to me
David Anderson:about that. What's what is the importance of joint versus
David Anderson:keeping things separate?
Joseph Okaly:Sure. And so the, the first point I'll go over is
Joseph Okaly:just account type in general. So you can have, you know, my
Joseph Okaly:accounts vs your accounts, but make sure they're all joint
Joseph Okaly:accounts. So they should all technically be joint bank
Joseph Okaly:accounts. So like for myself, I use one bank, primarily, my wife
Joseph Okaly:uses another bank, primarily, we look at everything jointly. But
Joseph Okaly:you know, she looks at those as kind of, you know, the ones
Joseph Okaly:accounts she would go to first. I have mine that I would go to
Joseph Okaly:first kind of a deal. But all of the accounts have both of our
Joseph Okaly:names on it. So if you don't have joint accounts, then God
Joseph Okaly:forbid, let's say you're in the hospital and you can't, you
Joseph Okaly:know, get money out of your account. You can't walk in and
Joseph Okaly:say "Oh, I'm I'm their spouse, give me some of their money."
Joseph Okaly:They will go by whoever's name is on that account. So even if
Joseph Okaly:you do choose to be more separate with your finances, I
Joseph Okaly:would highly, highly recommend that you make sure the
Joseph Okaly:registrations on those accounts are joint so that your spouse
Joseph Okaly:would get into the account in case of emergency. So I'd say
Joseph Okaly:off the off the bat, that would be the first the first item when
Joseph Okaly:you look at it from an account type standpoint. Going deeper
Joseph Okaly:into that about how you're looking at your finances, when
Joseph Okaly:you guys are, you know, starting on your journey to be you know,
Joseph Okaly:to have a life together, you're one family, and you know, having
Joseph Okaly:one family, it's important to to look at things and goals jointly
Joseph Okaly:because they are joint. So like when you get to retirement, if
Joseph Okaly:like one of you saved enough and the other one didn't, you're not
Joseph Okaly:going to be like alright, well, you know, I'm going to retire
Joseph Okaly:now and good luck to you. It's like you retired together, you
Joseph Okaly:send your school kids to school together. And you're what we've
Joseph Okaly:seen happen at times is when you start when you're young, and
Joseph Okaly:it's like okay, well, I'm handling the mortgage and the
Joseph Okaly:utility bill and you're handling the groceries and this, you
Joseph Okaly:know, the car loans, if one person has the, careers change,
Joseph Okaly:maybe one person isn't able to, you know, pay the mortgage as
Joseph Okaly:well. And now they start taking on some credit card debt,
Joseph Okaly:because that's their, their situation, their side of things.
Joseph Okaly:But at the end of the day, if one person has credit card debt,
Joseph Okaly:everybody has credit card debt, that's why that's holding back
Joseph Okaly:the family. Or you know, if one person has a work plan that
Joseph Okaly:allows for matching, and it would be great to take advantage
Joseph Okaly:of that kind of thing, but they don't have the cash flow to do
Joseph Okaly:that because technically, oh, I'm supposed to do the mortgage,
Joseph Okaly:you know, that kind of stuff. If you're not looking at it jointly
Joseph Okaly:then you're not taking advantage of all the potential
Joseph Okaly:opportunities. You don't see cumulatively as well where you
Joseph Okaly:guys are going and you avoid some of those pitfalls like I
Joseph Okaly:said, where if one person is going to you know take on credit
Joseph Okaly:card debt or something like that if they wind up not being able
Joseph Okaly:to manage their situation or you know, their half of the bill so
Joseph Okaly:to speak. So in my mind you know, as joint as possible,
Joseph Okaly:obviously, we don't push people you have to be joint or we're
Joseph Okaly:not going to work with you kind of thing, but in our opinion,
Joseph Okaly:you know, you should have you should be having everything as
Joseph Okaly:as joint together and looking at it jointly together. It's it's,
Joseph Okaly:you know, it's your joint situation kind of thing your
Joseph Okaly:joint life together.
David Anderson:Right. What's also to me when we have our we
David Anderson:have our conversations, I mean, money is not a sexy topic. I
David Anderson:mean, it's just not when we talk to couples, you know, how did
David Anderson:you guys meet and you know those those beautiful stories tell me
David Anderson:about your family. What do you like about each other? And it
David Anderson:it's, it's great that you guys have things in common. You both
David Anderson:have the same Marvel movie who superhero in common. Okay. Money
David Anderson:is really, you know, we don't we don't fight, we don't have
David Anderson:conflict, we have so much in common. We were just connected
David Anderson:on all these levels and what I what I tell people like you're
David Anderson:not married till there's money, okay until there's money
David Anderson:involved. Money tells you that you're married. The model we use
David Anderson:frequently is the idea of a business. If two businesses
David Anderson:merge, they're not merged until there's money involved. And
David Anderson:there's we can be associates, we can be whatever, but if you're
David Anderson:partners, that means we are in the pot together. So when should
David Anderson:you start this discussion? Okay, maybe first date might be too
David Anderson:early, like, "Hey, you're cute. And what's your credit score?"
David Anderson:When when should you start having some of those
David Anderson:discussions?
Joseph Okaly:Yeah. First date? It's cute. Yes, I would say you
Joseph Okaly:know, it's just, when you when you start getting serious, in my
Joseph Okaly:opinion, like, for me, like when I thought like, oh, I would like
Joseph Okaly:to propose to my wife, and you know, marry her, I was doing
Joseph Okaly:that, because I already knew, like, I knew that she wanted
Joseph Okaly:kids and I wanted kids. And so some of that stuff. So a lot of
Joseph Okaly:the again, going back to the goals piece of it like that can
Joseph Okaly:really tie into to helping with the money part. So you don't
Joseph Okaly:have to necessarily be like, Hey, what's your credit score,
Joseph Okaly:you know, from day one. But if you know what things that you
Joseph Okaly:guys are wanting to do, and not just like the Marvel movie
Joseph Okaly:today, we don't fight today is kind of your saying, but like,
Joseph Okaly:what do we want to do five years from now? 10 years from now?
Joseph Okaly:What direction do we want to really be going into? You know
Joseph Okaly:the money, it really ties into that a lot? So, you know,
Joseph Okaly:certainly as you as you get into being engaged and whatnot, it's
Joseph Okaly:kind of a good opportunity, because it's like, you know,
Joseph Okaly:well, how much do you have in your bank account, Hon? How much
Joseph Okaly:do I have in my bank account, because like, these are the
Joseph Okaly:things that we need to be, you know, using to maybe help pay
Joseph Okaly:for this wedding. So I think the engagement can be a good opening
Joseph Okaly:of a door to have to have more of a sight directly into what
Joseph Okaly:they have. But before I would even get engaged with someone
Joseph Okaly:again, I want their you know, this have some idea longer term
Joseph Okaly:on the on the goals, and that can kind of tell you something
Joseph Okaly:about what direction you're heading in. I think another
Joseph Okaly:thing you could talk about is, you know, stuff like, oh, you
Joseph Okaly:know, did your parents help you out paying for college? Did you
Joseph Okaly:do that on your own or like you there's things like that, that
Joseph Okaly:you can bring up in conversation as well. So like, for myself,
Joseph Okaly:personally, like my, my mom paid for, you know, part of my
Joseph Okaly:schooling and I took on the other half of loans. For my
Joseph Okaly:wife, she was fortunate enough where her parents took on that.
Joseph Okaly:But those are kind of things where it's not like, Hey, what's
Joseph Okaly:your credit score? Like what's your bank account number? It's
Joseph Okaly:kind of like, how do you how did your family teach you to
Joseph Okaly:approach money? Do they teach you just to take out a bunch of
Joseph Okaly:loans? And who cares? Did they teach you like, you know, try to
Joseph Okaly:minimize that thing? You know, why did you go to that school?
Joseph Okaly:Did you go to it because you got the most financial aid for that
Joseph Okaly:school? Did you do it just because you like the campus the
Joseph Okaly:most like. You know there are things that money has touched
Joseph Okaly:already in your life, that if you have discussions on like,
Joseph Okaly:why you wound up where you are with some of those things, you
Joseph Okaly:can start to piece together a little bit of what their
Joseph Okaly:baseline personality might be when it comes to money.
David Anderson:And then you also determine their values as
David Anderson:well. I mean, there's, there's all you know, there's no,
David Anderson:there's not really a good or bad, but you should make sure
David Anderson:you're on the same page, what you lease a car versus buying a
David Anderson:car. You buy a car every three years, or you drive it til it
David Anderson:dies. Those are values, those are values behind that, again,
David Anderson:there's not necessarily are good or bad. But you also want to
David Anderson:make sure like, hey, if I am I'm driving this beater til it's
David Anderson:300,000 miles, and you want a new car every three years.
David Anderson:Again, that's not good or bad. I certainly have an opinion on it.
David Anderson:But like, you want to make sure like, Hey, we're on this, we're
David Anderson:on the same page. So...
Joseph Okaly:That's a great example to with the car because
Joseph Okaly:it could be something like, oh, you know, you did you buy or
Joseph Okaly:lease your car? Or I leased it? Oh, you know, how did you come
Joseph Okaly:up with how much you could afford for that? Like, I don't,
Joseph Okaly:you know, how did you kind of come up with that kind of
Joseph Okaly:equation? Like how did you know? And now you get them talking
Joseph Okaly:again? And you could hear like, Well, I I don't know I just I
Joseph Okaly:just you know what saw it on the lot and I liked it. So you know,
Joseph Okaly:I bought it. And again now you're starting to establish a
Joseph Okaly:little bit of a mentality because if that's how they
Joseph Okaly:approach car buying, that's probably going to have you know
Joseph Okaly:be how they approach some other things in life as well. So I
Joseph Okaly:think that's a cool example that you could use as well.
David Anderson:Right? Say, you know, how much do you save? Do
David Anderson:you like to save? Did did you start working as a teenager?
David Anderson:Would you do with money made you know? You can get around it What
David Anderson:do you do when you start seeing red flags? I guess if you're
David Anderson:dating, you just kind of break up. But hey, we're engaged, and
David Anderson:I'm starting to see red flags. What? How do you handle that?
Joseph Okaly:That might be a better question for you, because
Joseph Okaly:that works a lot in the emotional realm. I mean, from a
Joseph Okaly:dollars and cents standpoint, if you see a bunch of red flags, I
Joseph Okaly:mean, money is like number one or two on the list of most
Joseph Okaly:studies for reasons that you know, stress is in a
Joseph Okaly:relationship. So if if money looks like it's gonna be kind of
Joseph Okaly:a bombshell, if you're, if you're approaching it without
Joseph Okaly:emotion, it's probably something that could be a problematic
Joseph Okaly:relationship, but I'll leave the rest of that answer to you.
David Anderson:Well, no. Yeah, I probably set myself up for
David Anderson:that. I mean, there's probably you mean, this thought, you
David Anderson:know, people, it's hard to change people. Like, if you're a
David Anderson:saver, you're a saver. If you're a spender, you're a spender.
David Anderson:It's very hard to turn a spender into a saver you can, you got to
David Anderson:sort of you got to really work with those folks. But I think
David Anderson:that's, you know, so we do a tool called SYMBIS. It stands
David Anderson:for Saving Your Marriage Before It Starts. It's like an
David Anderson:assessment that they ask us questions, and they get a
David Anderson:report. There's a whole there's a whole thing on on money. And
David Anderson:it's it's not a financial breakdown. It does ask you, you
David Anderson:know, how much you know, are you bringing zero debt, some debt,
David Anderson:significant amounts, it doesn't give $1 number. But it also, it
David Anderson:will ask you, are you a saver or a spender? It will ask you if
David Anderson:you if you make a budget, are you a budgeter? Yes, I live by
David Anderson:it religiously. I started it, but I don't do it or budget,
David Anderson:what does that mean? And they have these sort of choices. But
David Anderson:the other things they're sort of asking to like, what is your
David Anderson:what are your financial fears, and that's the stuff I'm
David Anderson:interested in. You know, there is the I want to be recognized.
David Anderson:I want to have influence. I want to have security. Those are
David Anderson:fears, those are your emotional things, all all money issues
David Anderson:have emotional issues, underneath and that you have to
David Anderson:uncover. So those are the things that that I'm after. And if you
David Anderson:start to see it, that's one of the things I have had some
David Anderson:folks, they get to that page, and they just sort of kind of
David Anderson:see it. And I really hope they haven't seen it for the first
David Anderson:time sometimes they do. But you do have to sort of talk through
David Anderson:like, this won't go away. It's not going it's not going to
David Anderson:necessarily change. How do you introduce budgeting to a couple
David Anderson:that's not really doing that? Like, like, hey, help me with
David Anderson:this whole budgeting thing? Like, how do you how do you sort
David Anderson:of start that conversation with them?
Joseph Okaly:Yeah, I mean, when you're young, the most important
Joseph Okaly:thing is just make sure that you're saving some part towards
Joseph Okaly:yourself. Because when you start at an early age, so when I went
Joseph Okaly:back to my high school to do a presentation to try to help kind
Joseph Okaly:of establish this point for high school students. But in the
Joseph Okaly:example, it was like a 22 year old versus a 23 year old and the
Joseph Okaly:22 year old and the 23 year old both start to save $200 a month,
Joseph Okaly:but the 22 year old, because they saved for one extra year at
Joseph Okaly:retirement, you know, 40 years later, that extra $200 a month
Joseph Okaly:for one year, came out to like an extra $200,000. So the power
Joseph Okaly:of money over time is just it's incredible, because it just
Joseph Okaly:keeps growing and building off of itself. In that example, one
Joseph Okaly:person didn't save an extra $2,400, they saved an extra
Joseph Okaly:$2,400, which grew for 40 years. So it's a really, really
Joseph Okaly:powerful component. So when young couples first come out,
Joseph Okaly:there's a lot of stuff that you want to spend money on. And I I
Joseph Okaly:totally get that you want the house you want the new
Joseph Okaly:furniture, car, whatever it might be. I would just the
Joseph Okaly:biggest thing is, you know, don't spend more than you make
Joseph Okaly:in general. And make sure that you pay yourself just a little
Joseph Okaly:bit more like, if I'm going to save $200 a month, you know
Joseph Okaly:what, let me try to push it to $300 a month. So really just try
Joseph Okaly:to make sure that you pay yourself something and just push
Joseph Okaly:that number a little bit. You don't have to, it doesn't have
Joseph Okaly:to be like $1,000 a month or anything like that. But I
Joseph Okaly:promise you, you know, those those little extra amounts that
Joseph Okaly:you save now are really going to grow to you know, potentially
Joseph Okaly:something very substantial down the road.
David Anderson:Right. I think one of the things I run into
David Anderson:more, and I've been doing weddings for close to 25 years.
David Anderson:But I'm still I'm 48 So I'm not you know, I don't want to talk
David Anderson:like the olden days. But one of the things that I have noticed I
David Anderson:pastor a church and I've got some older couples who they've
David Anderson:been married for 40, 50, 60 years. And I think the thing
David Anderson:that has struck me the most is there is really no idea or no
David Anderson:strong idea about starting off. Okay, and you'll hear these
David Anderson:older couples who say yeah, when we started off, we had a small
David Anderson:apartment, we had a we my aunt's ugly couch, and we had borrowed
David Anderson:furniture and there was a there was a tradition or your family
David Anderson:members gave you furniture and you eventually grew out of that,
David Anderson:or eventually got your second home or whatever you went from
David Anderson:renting to buying, things like that. The thing that is is very
David Anderson:striking now, there is no starting off, it's, we're gonna
David Anderson:get it all now. Like he's gonna get it all now. And it's
David Anderson:whatever the credit limit sort of set you at, or whatever I can
David Anderson:afford, as a payment, I, hey, we could afford that payment, we
David Anderson:could we need new furniture, we could afford 100 and whatever
David Anderson:dollars for payment, that kind of thing. How do you sort of
David Anderson:speak to that kind of stuff?
Joseph Okaly:Well, first off, I mean, I think that's a great
Joseph Okaly:point overall. And the the first part of that, I would say is
Joseph Okaly:when you're going to buy a house, that's usually the thing
Joseph Okaly:that people get stuck in the most. And I, to this point, 15
Joseph Okaly:years in, I don't think I've ever seen an approved mortgage
Joseph Okaly:limit that I would actually say somebody could afford. You might
Joseph Okaly:be able to afford that if that's the only thing that you do, you
Joseph Okaly:don't go on vacations, you don't really have a you know, you
Joseph Okaly:don't save toward yourself. If you want to just work so that
Joseph Okaly:you can pay the mortgage, that's kind of how the the upper limit
Joseph Okaly:of what they say, "hey, we'll give you a loan for" tends to
Joseph Okaly:come out from what I've seen. So the in that in that realm, I
Joseph Okaly:would definitely say, no matter what they say, they'll give you
Joseph Okaly:a loan for, it's probably more than you can afford, if you
Joseph Okaly:really want to be able to like save money towards yourself and
Joseph Okaly:do other things to grow into a good financial situation. So
Joseph Okaly:definitely take kind of a cut off the top of that. And you
Joseph Okaly:know, set a goal to you know, ideally, at a minimum, you want
Joseph Okaly:to save, you know, let's say 10% of your income towards yourself.
Joseph Okaly:So even if it's not from day one, but let's say you make
Joseph Okaly:$100,000, that's roughly $10,000 per year. That should be the
Joseph Okaly:goal of what you should kind of get to as a minimum. So maybe
Joseph Okaly:you're one it doesn't happen, because you're buying new
Joseph Okaly:furniture, you know, your two didn't happen, because you had
Joseph Okaly:to save up money for the house. But that should be kind of the
Joseph Okaly:target, like, I want to save at least something towards myself
Joseph Okaly:from day one, but I want to work up to maybe say 10% of what I'm
Joseph Okaly:making, that'll get you into a really good spot more likely
Joseph Okaly:than not, especially when you have that mentality, you know,
Joseph Okaly:when you're young. And, you know, to your point, David with
Joseph Okaly:with your examples, all of those people that were taking, you
Joseph Okaly:know, loan furniture and a little apartment and things like
Joseph Okaly:that, they were probably doing that because they couldn't spend
Joseph Okaly:more than they were making. They would not do it, credit cards
Joseph Okaly:probably weren't available, right, you know, back then
Joseph Okaly:potentially do what you can do now. And that's really the the
Joseph Okaly:first part of it, that they they did not spend more than they
Joseph Okaly:make. And then they made sure that they start to put some
Joseph Okaly:money away towards themselves when they could.
David Anderson:That's the key, that is the key "spend less than
David Anderson:you make". I mean, it sounds so basic. And it is like, you know,
David Anderson:I don't know how to you just stamp it on the forehead
David Anderson:sometimes. So one of the things that happens a lot in engaged
David Anderson:I'm in North Jersey, so yeah, big weddings are kind of a big
David Anderson:couples, or sometimes leading up to a wedding, or wedding day, or
David Anderson:the days after. You could find yourself from family or friends,
David Anderson:you could find yourself with a windfall. I mean, you can find
David Anderson:yourself now there's usually a lot of money that has been put
David Anderson:into the wedding. Right, I have seen some tremendous weddings.
David Anderson:Listen, it's the fun of my weekend to go to this wonderful
David Anderson:event. I stand back sometimes that I look at like, wow, they
David Anderson:spent 45, 30, 50, 75,000 on this event. And that kind of makes my
David Anderson:head shake a little bit.
David Anderson:thing.
David Anderson:So I love to go and I will certainly eat your your steak
David Anderson:and kebabs there. I mean, it's it's great. I'll enjoy it. But
David Anderson:coming out of that you could end up with 5, 10, 15, $20,000 maybe
David Anderson:a grandparent gives you something more. How do I
David Anderson:approach that? Like we're just newly married and I'm flushed
David Anderson:with cash I've just gotten pockets full of of money, what
David Anderson:what is your approach to that?
Joseph Okaly:So my biggest piece of advice when it comes to
Joseph Okaly:that would be to be intentional with it. So a lot of people
Joseph Okaly:might take that money and just throw it in their bank account.
Joseph Okaly:And all of a sudden, you know, they look at it six months
Joseph Okaly:later, and somehow it's you know, it's disappeared. They're
Joseph Okaly:not quite sure where, where it may have gone to but it's it's
Joseph Okaly:really not there anymore. And this is the same approach that
Joseph Okaly:we use for our clients that might get a bonus or tax refund
Joseph Okaly:is to plan ahead of time and say, Hey, you're going to get
Joseph Okaly:$10,000 back or you're going to get this $10,000 bonus. What do
Joseph Okaly:you want to do with it? Let's plan ahead of time. And now you
Joseph Okaly:can make sure that it does what you actually want it to do. It
Joseph Okaly:doesn't all have to be saved. I mean ideally, part of it would
Joseph Okaly:be saved. But at least when you're intentional with it, then
Joseph Okaly:you're going to have more chance of it accomplishing the things
Joseph Okaly:that you'd like it to accomplish. Because nobody likes
Joseph Okaly:when when you want to ask them like, Oh, what is your bonus? Oh
Joseph Okaly:$10,000? Okay, where did that go last year? I, not quite I know,
Joseph Okaly:I put it into my account, but then that it's like, gets
Joseph Okaly:dripped and dragged away. So definitely very intentional with
Joseph Okaly:whatever you get there. It's using part of it towards a house
Joseph Okaly:or part of it towards repayment of debt or part of it to save
Joseph Okaly:and, you know, get that get yourselves on the right track,
Joseph Okaly:you know, definitely be intentional with the money in
Joseph Okaly:one way or another.
David Anderson:Right. How often do you run into a couple? And
David Anderson:this is sort of this, I could ask myself the same question as
David Anderson:well. As we've said, a couple of times, we sort of alluded to
David Anderson:money can cause stress, money can cause conflict. I, there was
David Anderson:a paper years ago, that was fascinating. They were basically
David Anderson:saying that all couples kind of have rules for fighting, you
David Anderson:know, whether they're written or unwritten, we just kind of
David Anderson:assumed, okay, you know, if we can't finish this in 15 minutes,
David Anderson:we're gonna go cool off, or don't yell at me, or don't cuss
David Anderson:at me, or, you know, once you throw a pot of my head, then
David Anderson:we're done or whatever. What this paper was saying, what the
David Anderson:study was suggesting was, if you have rules for fighting, okay,
David Anderson:don't call my mom names or whatever, you have rules for
David Anderson:fighting, most couples will keep them unless it's a money fight.
David Anderson:If I am going to break our written or unwritten
David Anderson:relationship rules, I will break it for money. I'm not going to
David Anderson:break it because your parents stepped over our holiday plans
David Anderson:or somebody came home late or whatever. But I will break it
David Anderson:for money. And not only will I break it, potentially, I'll go
David Anderson:for the jugular. Like I will throw all kinds of relational
David Anderson:equity out the window over the money fight. And so I guess the
David Anderson:question for you is how often have you run into situations
David Anderson:like the money thing has gotten to a point where it's causing
David Anderson:conflict? Like, and obviously I would say, you're probably gonna
David Anderson:say, well, first call me, you know, but help me with that. You
David Anderson:walked into a room, you're trying to sort of advise in in,
David Anderson:in resource you to see this as that this is a this is a tense
David Anderson:situation, and it seems to be resolved, revolving around
David Anderson:money? How do you sort of handle some of that?
Joseph Okaly:Well, first of all, that's such an interesting
Joseph Okaly:study, because it just goes to show the emotional power that
Joseph Okaly:money has, I mean, if you would go and you know, beyond the
Joseph Okaly:relationship fighting rules, like you put it, over money, it
Joseph Okaly:just shows what a powerful motivator money can be. How much
Joseph Okaly:fear and anxiety can be held within because I mean, money
Joseph Okaly:translates to security. What you know, am I gonna be able to do
Joseph Okaly:the things that I need to do in my life, to survive in the way
Joseph Okaly:that I want to survive? You know, money can motivate people
Joseph Okaly:and push people past what would be their normal, normal, normal
Joseph Okaly:way of reacting. So that I mean, that study from, from that first
Joseph Okaly:initial part is just really, really interesting. But for me,
Joseph Okaly:we deal with some of this stuff, not when it's about to explode
Joseph Okaly:probably, but as an advisor, and I'm 100% biased, because I am an
Joseph Okaly:advisor. So I will readily admit that, but I think that people
Joseph Okaly:should see an advisor as early as possible. There's this notion
Joseph Okaly:like, I don't need to see somebody until I'm 40, or 50, or
Joseph Okaly:60, or whatever it may be. And at that point, there's much less
Joseph Okaly:time for somebody to help you. So when I meet with a younger
Joseph Okaly:couple, while I why I love meeting with them is because we
Joseph Okaly:can get all of this stuff out in the open in a safe way. So if
Joseph Okaly:you know Bob things this and Jane thinks this about money,
Joseph Okaly:they can voice their concerns, and they could say what they
Joseph Okaly:feel out loud. And now they have somebody who's a professional
Joseph Okaly:that can help navigate through this. So like, yeah, I
Joseph Okaly:understand that you, you know, you feel like he doesn't have
Joseph Okaly:enough life insurance, you feel like you know, he's not taking,
Joseph Okaly:saving seriously enough, and then I could take that concern.
Joseph Okaly:And I could show it to them visually in a way that they can
Joseph Okaly:both digest it, and now make a joint decision, like going
Joseph Okaly:forward from it. And you'd be shocked how many times this
Joseph Okaly:stuff is below the surface and the other spouse doesn't even
Joseph Okaly:know. Like, when we the first thing we do is we always talk
Joseph Okaly:about goals when it comes to meeting with a new client. And
Joseph Okaly:when one person says like, oh, yeah, I'm definitely gonna
Joseph Okaly:retire early. And then you see the spouse look at them, like
Joseph Okaly:what do you mean, retire early? How am I gonna get my second
Joseph Okaly:house if you retire early? Right? It's like all this stuff
Joseph Okaly:that's below the service that they're assuming their spouse
Joseph Okaly:knew that they didn't know at all. So you know, if you're, if
Joseph Okaly:you have an advisor, I just always recommend having that
Joseph Okaly:person to go talk to and that just helps get all this stuff
Joseph Okaly:out on the table. Because even when I have to give people bad
Joseph Okaly:news, like, nobody wants to come in and have me tell them, like
Joseph Okaly:you're not on the path that you want to be on, but they leave
Joseph Okaly:still relieved, because knowing I'm on a bad path, and knowing
Joseph Okaly:the options to get me on a good path is much more comfortable
Joseph Okaly:than having no idea if I'm on a bad path, but kind of thinking
Joseph Okaly:I'm like be. So you know, that advisor, again, having that
Joseph Okaly:professional just like they're going to you to help them with
Joseph Okaly:the engagement process and gain clarity on that as they head
Joseph Okaly:into their life together, having that separate individual that
Joseph Okaly:professional that can help navigate that for them from a
Joseph Okaly:financial standpoint. I've just seen time and time again, is so
Joseph Okaly:helpful to people.
David Anderson:Right. I like the word advisor. And and I have
David Anderson:tried. When you say the word counseling to anybody, it just
David Anderson:scares them. Financial Counseling, marriage counseling,
David Anderson:even premarital counseling, they think I'm gonna, you know,
David Anderson:they're gonna come in here and you can lay on the couch and
David Anderson:tell me about your mom or no,
Joseph Okaly:like, you're almost doing something wrong.
David Anderson:Yeah, yeah, well, he's gonna, he's gonna
David Anderson:find out our secret like, No, I mean, the that advisor piece,
David Anderson:like you should have an advisor, you should have a financial
David Anderson:coach. I, I went to a lot of school, and I learned a lot of
David Anderson:things. And none of them were finances, I took one personal
David Anderson:money management class to get my math credit out of the way. I
David Anderson:know. Now, if you want me to translate Hebrew, or Greek or
David Anderson:Aramaic to you, I'll be more than happy to do that. But I
David Anderson:already know like, I that's not in my wheelhouse. And so having
David Anderson:that coach having that advisor is very important. And it's not
David Anderson:a bad thing. I mean. I I tell couples all the time that the
David Anderson:aunt, you know, when couples get into conflict, they think the
David Anderson:answer is either in your head or it's in my head. And you have to
David Anderson:allow, whether it's emotions, whether it's conflict,
David Anderson:communication, whatever, or finances No, you have to make
David Anderson:the allowance. No, there could be an answer. And it could be in
David Anderson:someone else's head. And you have to go get that that's why
David Anderson:those resources are there. What are some of the famous or not
David Anderson:your famous? Your favorite resources? Like where would you
David Anderson:point some folks, if you if they aren't necessarily going to come
David Anderson:to New Jersey this weekend? Where would where would some
David Anderson:folks who are listening across the country around the world?
David Anderson:Where would they would you want to point them to maybe do some
David Anderson:of this if they're just sort of dipping their toe in before they
David Anderson:come into somebody's office?
Joseph Okaly:Sure, sure. So I mean, that I like that line that
Joseph Okaly:that you just use, though, as well. You know, it might not be
Joseph Okaly:in my head or your head, like don't assume that either one of
Joseph Okaly:us has the answer. And I mean, that goes back to just you know,
Joseph Okaly:the fact that nobody's, you can't learn everything in
Joseph Okaly:school. Nobody can. The fact that you had one personal
Joseph Okaly:finance classes more than most people have. So you're actually
Joseph Okaly:ahead of the game which is sad.
David Anderson:But it's changed? Listen, what I learned.
David Anderson:I mean, I was in college in 1995. None of that applies
David Anderson:anymore. I learned how, you know, when I talk to people
David Anderson:about balancing a checkbook, and the whole ledger thing. I mean,
David Anderson:they just look at me like weirdos like, No, you still have
David Anderson:to do some of that like to balance your stuff at the end of
David Anderson:the month. Oh my gosh, no one does. But go ahead. Finish what
Joseph Okaly:Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's just that
Joseph Okaly:you're saying?
Joseph Okaly:there are people out there and like sometimes we're okay with
Joseph Okaly:taking advice from other people. You know, if it's a plumber, I
Joseph Okaly:know I can't, you know, unclog pipes. So, you know, if it's a
Joseph Okaly:plumber, that's fine, we're ready to admit like, yeah, I
Joseph Okaly:don't know that. And I'm okay with using somebody that does
Joseph Okaly:know that. But for certain things when it comes like
Joseph Okaly:emotions, or finances or money, like we don't seem to be able to
Joseph Okaly:jump mentally that to that conclusion as readily. So
Joseph Okaly:finances is that kind of that that taboo kind of thing. So
Joseph Okaly:when it comes to the resources, I don't know that there's a ton
Joseph Okaly:of resources out there for young people in particular, which is
Joseph Okaly:why I started my podcast because I think it's kind of
Joseph Okaly:embarrassing as a country that we don't educate our youth as
Joseph Okaly:much as they need to be able to go out there once they get jobs
Joseph Okaly:and to do all that. So my podcast I hope is a resource
Joseph Okaly:that people can use for sure. There's some very classic books
Joseph Okaly:like you know, The Millionaire Next Door, which is a really
Joseph Okaly:cool thing about just you know, the the wealthiest people in
Joseph Okaly:your neighborhood are probably not the ones that are driving
Joseph Okaly:the biggest newest shiniest car because they're spending money
Joseph Okaly:to get that to make to have a large value a large net worth
Joseph Okaly:you have to not spend money and save it and invest it and a car
Joseph Okaly:is not an investment so The Millionaire Next Door I think is
Joseph Okaly:a good one to just also throw in there to to encourage people to
Joseph Okaly:look at the other side of the spectrum that it's not you know
Joseph Okaly:what your worth is not what you show. It's what you have.
David Anderson:Oh yeah. No the best the thing the thing I love
David Anderson:to see is a nice, not necessarily huge house but a
David Anderson:nice house, the beat up car out front, and I look at that. That
David Anderson:is a smart couple. Somebody is doing something smart. Alright
David Anderson:so the easiest way for people to find you your website is
David Anderson:EnjoyMore30s.com And I'll put I'll put a link to that on on my
David Anderson:side in our show notes. But what is the easiest way for people to
David Anderson:connect with you if they want to give you a call or connect with
David Anderson:you? When once they hear this what's the easiest way for
David Anderson:people to find you?
Joseph Okaly:Yeah, it's pretty easy. You can like you said you
Joseph Okaly:can go into the website EnjoyMore30s EnjoyMore30s.com My
Joseph Okaly:financial firm's website is nhwmllc.com. New Horizons Wealth
Joseph Okaly:Management LLC .com. I'm on LinkedIn, you know, Instagram,
Joseph Okaly:anywhere that you want to reach out, you could definitely find
Joseph Okaly:me. So yeah, anytime anybody has any questions on anything,
Joseph Okaly:please don't hesitate to reach out and give me a shout. I'm not
Joseph Okaly:doing all of this for any other reason than to just get
Joseph Okaly:information out there to people that should be having this
Joseph Okaly:information already. So please don't hesitate to ask if you
Joseph Okaly:have a question.
David Anderson:Absolutely. And obviously, my website is
David Anderson:WeddingChaplain.com. You're more than welcome to reach out to me
David Anderson:there. Well, Joe, this has been fabulous. Any final thoughts?
David Anderson:Anything that you'd like to close this out with?
Joseph Okaly:Yeah, let me let me one thing we didn't touch on
Joseph Okaly:that I was hoping to mention to everybody today as well is one
Joseph Okaly:of the biggest things that I recommend young families do that
Joseph Okaly:do not do. And one of the biggest mistakes that they make
Joseph Okaly:is not having enough protection for themselves. So you know, you
Joseph Okaly:get married, you start having kids, you have a house, and now
Joseph Okaly:you have something that's worth protecting. And as a young
Joseph Okaly:person, your biggest asset is not what's in your bank account,
Joseph Okaly:it's not your 401(k), it's your future earnings potential. So if
Joseph Okaly:you may make, you know, if you make $100,000 a year, you're on
Joseph Okaly:pace to make $3-$4 million worth of income over the course of
Joseph Okaly:your career, if not more, that's your biggest asset. So I know
Joseph Okaly:you know disability, not a fun thing to think about. I don't
Joseph Okaly:like thinking about becoming disabled or dying or anything
Joseph Okaly:like that. But those are the insurances that make sure this
Joseph Okaly:house that you're building does not come crashing down. If God
Joseph Okaly:forbid, were to, you know, something were to happen to you.
Joseph Okaly:And when you're young and healthy, these insurances are
Joseph Okaly:very cost effective. It you know, it's not something that's
Joseph Okaly:going to put a big hole in your pocket to make sure that your
Joseph Okaly:family is protected. I have an episode called Survivors Don't
Joseph Okaly:Complain About Too Much Life Insurance, like no one's going
Joseph Okaly:to be like, Oh, I wish that I got a little bit less from from
Joseph Okaly:my husband when when he had when he passed away. So just make
Joseph Okaly:sure that this life that you're building, there's so much great
Joseph Okaly:positive stuff, make sure you protect it, because that's the
Joseph Okaly:biggest mistake that we see people make. And you know, God
Joseph Okaly:forbid, you have a little child or something like that out there
Joseph Okaly:and you pass away. You don't want your you know, your spouse
Joseph Okaly:and your child to be put into a terrible situation. So something
Joseph Okaly:very easy that a lot of people overlook. Outside of that to
Joseph Okaly:close on a more happy positive note, wherever you are right now
Joseph Okaly:you're starting off in your life, just forgive yourself for
Joseph Okaly:anything you may not know, you're not uncommon, you know,
Joseph Okaly:most people were not taught anything. So what you can do
Joseph Okaly:today, wherever you may be, is take that step forward. Make
Joseph Okaly:sure that you don't live beyond your means and make sure you pay
Joseph Okaly:yourself first, and you're gonna put yourself and you know, very,
Joseph Okaly:very lovely a great position for you and your family going
Joseph Okaly:forward.
David Anderson:Very good. Very good. Well, Joe Okaly, this has
David Anderson:been a wonderful conversation again, we'll put all the links
David Anderson:in both of our respective podcast show notes, so you'll be
David Anderson:able to connect with either of us after this episode. Joe,
David Anderson:thank you so much for being with us today. It was a pleasure.
Joseph Okaly:Thank you very much as well David, this was a
Joseph Okaly:really cool thing to talk about. And I hope a lot of people out
Joseph Okaly:there get a lot of value from it.
David Anderson:Awesome, man. Thank you.
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