Today, we’re talking about the controversial 1986 film Soul Man, directed by Steve Miner. It tells the story of Mark Watson who is an affluent UCLA student who gets into Harvard Law School. The only problem is his father decides to not fund his education so that he can learn some responsibility. He tries to get loans, but can’t because his credit sucks. But then his friend tells him about a scholarship meant for Black applicants, so he buys some tanning pills and dons a jerry curl wig to get the scholarship. And hilariousness ensues! He falls in love with Rae Dawn Chong (a black student who we learn was supposed to get the scholarship), he has sex with a white woman who fetishizes black men, he gets evicted by a racist landlord, and tries unsuccessfully to play basketball. In the end, he is exposed, learns the error of his ways, and commits to giving back to the Black community.

The film stars C. Thomas Howell, Rae Dawn Chong, James Earl Jones, Arye Gross, Julia Louis-Dreyfuss, Melora Hardin, and Leslie Nielsen.

The film has a runtime of 1 hour and 44 minutes.

Film Sins: Did we mention C. Thomas Howell is in blackface the entire time?

Hosts: Kristina "Krissie" Rettig & Erin Maxwell

Edited by: Russ Lichter

Theme song by: Spooky Dan

Speaker: I don't feel like I should be having an opinion on this again.

Speaker: I feel very uncomfortable having an opinion.

Speaker: That's what makes this so fun for me.

Speaker: Um, okay, so like I'm not going to get that many other

Speaker: opportunities to do this.

Speaker: Let's go.

Speaker: Um, so, so you have to wait

Speaker: until we're, we're going to tear

Speaker: apart gentle.

Speaker: And then we are I'm all over it, and then I'm just be like, fuck.

Speaker: Um, I don't want to talk about this, um, cinematic heart taste.

Speaker: Bad taste.

Speaker: We're bringing it back.

Speaker: If it's got issues, we got your back.

Speaker: All right.

Speaker: Welcome to Cinematic Problematics, where we celebrate

Speaker: your guilty pleasures.

Speaker: I am Christy Redding, and I am

Speaker: Aaron Maxwell, and I am the

Speaker: black one.

Speaker: So I get to introduce the movie this time.

Speaker: Uh, today we're talking about

Speaker: the controversial nineteen

Speaker: eighty six film Soul Man,

Speaker: starring C Thomas Howell Rae,

Speaker: Dawn Chong, R.E. gross, James

Speaker: Earl Jones, Julia Louis-Dreyfus,

Speaker: Melora Hardin, and Leslie

Speaker: Nielsen.

Speaker: It tells the story of Mark

Speaker: Watson, who is an affluent UCLA

Speaker: student who gets into Harvard

Speaker: Law School.

Speaker: The only problem is his dad decides that he's not going to

Speaker: pay for it to show him a little bit of responsibility.

Speaker: So he tries to get loans, but he can't because his credit sucks.

Speaker: Then his friend tells him about a scholarship meant for black

Speaker: applicants, so he buys some tanning pills and dons a very

Speaker: cool wig to get the scholarship.

Speaker: And it works.

Speaker: And Hilariousness ensues.

Speaker: He falls in love with Rae Dawn Chong, who we learn was supposed

Speaker: to get the scholarship bu he has sex with a white woman who

Speaker: fetishizes black men.

Speaker: He gets evicted by racist

Speaker: landlord and tries

Speaker: unsuccessfully to play

Speaker: basketball.

Speaker: In the end, he is exposed and

Speaker: learns the error of his ways and

Speaker: commits to giving back to the

Speaker: black community.

Speaker: I'm the Jewish one, so I get to be horrified by everything.

Speaker: Yeah, this is going to be a

Speaker: really interesting conversation,

Speaker: folks.

Speaker: Let's, uh, let's get started.

Speaker: So so let's let's go back, Aaron.

Speaker: Let's go back to the year nineteen eighty six.

Speaker: Let's go back to the year that the.

Speaker: This movie came out.

Speaker: So tell me about your experience watching this movie when you

Speaker: first saw it.

Speaker: I first saw this the way many six year olds saw this, which

Speaker: was on HBO, with repeated viewings that were forced down

Speaker: our throat because there was nothing else on around two p m

Speaker: on a Sunday.

Speaker: And even being very young, I

Speaker: knew that this was very, very

Speaker: wrong.

Speaker: And going back to this forty

Speaker: some odd years later, this was a

Speaker: fever dream.

Speaker: This was so difficult to watch and I had to stop it.

Speaker: I had to go outside and touch some grass and feel the earth

Speaker: and just take a moment to myself and remember that I was okay,

Speaker: and then kind of figure out where I stood, and then go back

Speaker: and then watch a really shitty Stevie Wonder impression, and

Speaker: then go back outside and figure out what was going on with my

Speaker: life and how I came to this portion of it.

Speaker: Mhm.

Speaker: And that's basically how I came to it.

Speaker: It was very I feel so good.

Speaker: I can't even speak of this film.

Speaker: I feel so conflicted.

Speaker: Well we're going to talk about

Speaker: it anyways and I can't wait to

Speaker: make you extremely

Speaker: uncomfortable.

Speaker: So um, when I first saw the

Speaker: movie, it was during the cable

Speaker: days.

Speaker: It was either.

Speaker: I think I might have seen it in

Speaker: the theater, but I. I couldn't

Speaker: recall how many times I had seen

Speaker: it.

Speaker: But as I started to rewatch it, I realized that I knew a lot of

Speaker: the lines, which meant I watched it a lot.

Speaker: I must have been about, I don't know, like eight or something

Speaker: when I first saw it.

Speaker: And like Aaron, it's like part of me knew it was wrong.

Speaker: And so when I when I knew that we were going to talk about this

Speaker: film, I was like, I know I'm gonna hate it.

Speaker: I know I'm gonna hate it.

Speaker: So I had to kind of go through

Speaker: this whole deprogramming in my

Speaker: brain, exercise and be like,

Speaker: okay, you need to go into this

Speaker: movie with a really, really open

Speaker: mind.

Speaker: Like, don't automatically hate it from the beginning.

Speaker: Obviously, it's doing something

Speaker: that you just don't ever do in a

Speaker: film.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: We'll get to that.

Speaker: But at the same time, go in impartially.

Speaker: Try to be as impartial as you can, try to be fair.

Speaker: Try to understand where the filmmakers were coming from, if

Speaker: you can, you know, and try to try to see if there's any good

Speaker: to glean from the film.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: But at the same time, when we were putting together the list

Speaker: of what films were going to cover, this was really high up

Speaker: and almost immediate.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Because this film has a lot of notoriety.

Speaker: Oh, yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Everybody kind of remembers this film.

Speaker: Unless you're kind of like Gen Z and you're not really aware of

Speaker: it, because people kind of became aware of stop showing it.

Speaker: It doesn't get a lot of rerun play.

Speaker: No one ever, like, waxes poetic

Speaker: about it and remembers it

Speaker: fondly.

Speaker: No. And watches it again and

Speaker: again and shows it to their

Speaker: kids.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: So it's kind of now in the back

Speaker: burner of like, pop culture,

Speaker: right?

Speaker: It just survives off of notoriety.

Speaker: So it comes up on a bunch of lists of worst movies ever made.

Speaker: Problematic movies, things like that.

Speaker: Which is why it came up very high on our list.

Speaker: I think it was number three or four.

Speaker: And I think we highlighted it on our list.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: Because it's so bad.

Speaker: So bad.

Speaker: Like, should we go back to this?

Speaker: And one of the things I and I, we talked about this off mic and

Speaker: I'm going to talk about it here is like one of my favorite

Speaker: quotes about Hunter S Thompson is when he's wandering high off

Speaker: his ass through Circus Circus, and he looks through all the

Speaker: tackiness and the gamblers, and he says, that Circus Circus

Speaker: basically looks like what everybody in America would be

Speaker: doing on a Saturday night had the Nazis won the war.

Speaker: And Soul Man is the movie that they would probably take in.

Speaker: Oh, no, they would love it.

Speaker: Probably.

Speaker: They'd be like, oh, this is so great.

Speaker: Actually, I think they might

Speaker: have changed the ending a little

Speaker: bit.

Speaker: But, you know, we'll talk about some alternative ways to tell

Speaker: the story later.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Uh, just once again, I went into

Speaker: this movie with a completely

Speaker: open mind.

Speaker: And even like when it was on our

Speaker: list, I was like, I think that

Speaker: both of us are going to hate

Speaker: this.

Speaker: Should we even do this movie?

Speaker: You know, because it's like this

Speaker: show is supposed to be about,

Speaker: can we find redeeming qualities

Speaker: in movies that have problematic

Speaker: elements?

Speaker: And this movie is just one big problematic element, but.

Speaker: We should discuss.

Speaker: I'm going to try and squeeze

Speaker: some good out of it just as a

Speaker: heads up, and I would urge

Speaker: anybody to make their own

Speaker: assessment.

Speaker: I don't know if I want this movie to make any more money.

Speaker: I'm very conflicted about that.

Speaker: But but yeah, let's get let's get to talking about it.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: So this movie has some issues.

Speaker: Shall we go to the charges against it?

Speaker: Aaron.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: Um, it's really one charge and that's hate crime.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: It's a giant hate crime.

Speaker: It is very, very racist.

Speaker: But we can kind of break down

Speaker: exactly like the different

Speaker: points of racism, because

Speaker: there's some points of it that

Speaker: are more egregious than others,

Speaker: for sure.

Speaker: Outside of the fact that you've got a white man pretending to be

Speaker: a black man in order to steal a scholarship meant for

Speaker: minorities, which is probably the biggest issue.

Speaker: Every character in it is a stereotype or racist.

Speaker: So everybody on that sense is no matter what their race is,

Speaker: they're also kind of just a two dimensional, very, very paper

Speaker: thin kind of construct.

Speaker: So they don't really help anything.

Speaker: No one comes out of this unscathed.

Speaker: Everybody comes off as terrible except for Rae Dawn Chong.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: She's the only redeeming character.

Speaker: Yeah, she's she's the heart and soul of the movie.

Speaker: Maybe James Earl Jones.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Oh. The kid, her son.

Speaker: Sure.

Speaker: One of the most adorable child

Speaker: actors I've ever seen in my

Speaker: entire life.

Speaker: Okay, sure.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: He'll get a pass.

Speaker: Yeah, he gets a pass.

Speaker: He didn't do anything racist the entire time.

Speaker: The only reason James Earl Jones may not get.

Speaker: I just question as to why he took the role.

Speaker: He found it hilarious in the article that we read.

Speaker: He said he found the script funny.

Speaker: He was just like, no, he's like.

Speaker: He was like laughing his butt off.

Speaker: James Earl Jones, Chrissy and I

Speaker: for research for this, we read

Speaker: an article in the LA times that

Speaker: was written in like, in the

Speaker: eighties.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Eighty six.

Speaker: And it was a deep dive behind the scenes.

Speaker: And the woman that wrote it obviously did a set visit.

Speaker: And it goes in deep as to the making of this movie.

Speaker: But yeah.

Speaker: Yeah, I mean, and the fact that people like James Earl Jones

Speaker: were in it, like after I read that, I was just kind of like,

Speaker: okay, well, maybe, maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way.

Speaker: Maybe he's seeing something and I don't, I don't know.

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: But, um.

Speaker: Aaron, what do you think?

Speaker: Do you think that our Gen Z audience knows about the history

Speaker: of blackface at all?

Speaker: Yes we do.

Speaker: Yeah, I think they absolutely do.

Speaker: I think that either someone told them.

Speaker: I think that a lot of them are very inquisitive.

Speaker: I think that they learn about it

Speaker: from either YouTube or they

Speaker: learn about it from historic

Speaker: TikTok.

Speaker: I think that they learn about it from their classes, and I think

Speaker: they learned about it in college, so they absolutely

Speaker: learned about it.

Speaker: I mean, you and I know about it, and we probably learned about it

Speaker: when we were very young.

Speaker: Well, I mean, I learned about it because I think my family told

Speaker: me about how bad it was.

Speaker: But yeah, I think I'm just gonna do I'm just gonna give, like, a

Speaker: brief, brief history of blackface for our listeners who

Speaker: may be in a school district where they are burning books, or

Speaker: they've gotten rid of critical race theory, which is not a

Speaker: thing in elementary schools, by the way, but whatever.

Speaker: So it started off in the nineteenth century with white

Speaker: actors painting themselves in shoe polish and burnt charcoal

Speaker: and or burnt cork.

Speaker: Sorry.

Speaker: And, uh, there was a very

Speaker: popular character named Jim Crow

Speaker: who was kind of like this

Speaker: bumbling character.

Speaker: And this was kind of like in response to black people asking

Speaker: for civil rights.

Speaker: And, uh, so they white actors decided to reclaim this as a

Speaker: form of superiority around them by making them look stupid and

Speaker: ignorant and uneducated.

Speaker: And so this lasted up until,

Speaker: like, I don't know, the fifties

Speaker: and sixties.

Speaker: You can see it all over the Hollywood movies and everything

Speaker: until people were like, wait a second, this is kind of racist

Speaker: and we shouldn't do it anymore.

Speaker: And so it became this thing that you just do not do like.

Speaker: It is one of the non actual

Speaker: criminal, criminal things that

Speaker: you can do in life is go in

Speaker: blackface.

Speaker: It is like one of the things

Speaker: that you just don't even attempt

Speaker: to do, don't even try to halfway

Speaker: do it.

Speaker: Don't even try to fully do it.

Speaker: Anytime you try to do this, even if you think you are being

Speaker: innocent, even if your intentions are good, it is never

Speaker: a good thing to go in blackface.

Speaker: So because of like the sordid history behind it, you just

Speaker: don't do it.

Speaker: Sorry.

Speaker: I just wanted to give a little

Speaker: brief history lesson, just in

Speaker: case people don't know that is

Speaker: fair.

Speaker: Okay, okay.

Speaker: What other do you want to elaborate on?

Speaker: The what I call the cultural

Speaker: misrepresentation and defamation

Speaker: charge?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I just want to talk about the way Mark looks.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Because in the article and it

Speaker: was written by Sheila Benson,

Speaker: and she makes a really good

Speaker: point.

Speaker: They don't put any effort into the way he looks.

Speaker: He literally looks like what was basically a a Ken doll.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Like, they they just colored his skin and then threw on like, a

Speaker: California curl wig on him.

Speaker: And then that was the extent of it.

Speaker: They didn't change his clothes or put any effort into the

Speaker: manner in which he spoke or, or do anything else.

Speaker: There was no other research that

Speaker: was put into it, and then that

Speaker: was it.

Speaker: So it was all very either lazy

Speaker: or maybe that was a character

Speaker: choice.

Speaker: It is really hard to tell.

Speaker: It is hard to tell.

Speaker: And it's and I think that like

Speaker: the way that I took it,

Speaker: especially in the beginning

Speaker: because they don't make Mark out

Speaker: to be this highly emotionally

Speaker: intelligent dude.

Speaker: This seems like something that Mark would do.

Speaker: right?

Speaker: It seems like the way that he

Speaker: would think a black person would

Speaker: pass with a cheap Jheri curl wig

Speaker: and some tanning pills, and I

Speaker: think that might be part of the

Speaker: joke is that he is like, one of

Speaker: the whitest guys you've ever

Speaker: seen in your entire fucking

Speaker: life, and any attempt to try to

Speaker: make him look black fails

Speaker: spectacularly.

Speaker: I just didn't understand that.

Speaker: Like he's supposed to be from LA

Speaker: and he didn't have any black

Speaker: friends.

Speaker: Well, I mean, that happens a lot, actually.

Speaker: Like that.

Speaker: That like, I mean, if you live in, like, these affluent

Speaker: bubbles, like, if you're living in Brentwood, if you're living

Speaker: in Beverly Hills, if you're living in like, like, I mean,

Speaker: and his family is apparently very, very rich, right?

Speaker: And he's, like, expecting, like, this free ride from his dad.

Speaker: I mean, he has this beautiful house and everything, and.

Speaker: Yeah, I can totally I mean, in Manhattan Beach.

Speaker: Like, if it wasn't for me, there

Speaker: would be four hundred white

Speaker: students who had no black

Speaker: friends at Mira Costa High

Speaker: School.

Speaker: Okay, so.

Speaker: So there.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Definitely possible.

Speaker: My ignorant ass went to Fairfax.

Speaker: And the Fairfax High school, like.

Speaker: Oh, like I don't get it.

Speaker: Like, how did they not have any black friends?

Speaker: No, no. Well, Fairfax.

Speaker: Fairfax.

Speaker: Much more diverse than Manhattan Beach.

Speaker: Let me just tell you.

Speaker: Um, um, so, so it's definitely possible.

Speaker: And it's like, look, I mean, he

Speaker: even said, right, this is the

Speaker: Cosby decade.

Speaker: This is reference for who black people are.

Speaker: It's the Cosby.

Speaker: And the thing that's funny about

Speaker: that is that The Cosby Show is a

Speaker: show that very deliberately

Speaker: didn't talk about race very

Speaker: explicitly.

Speaker: It was very matter of fact.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: It was just like a black family

Speaker: who happened to be very

Speaker: successful.

Speaker: He's a doctor.

Speaker: She's a lawyer.

Speaker: There are kids are well adjusted for kids, you know, like they're

Speaker: pretty good kids.

Speaker: More or less like they don't go

Speaker: out crying or anything like

Speaker: that.

Speaker: And they just are a regular,

Speaker: affluent black family, and they

Speaker: don't ever talk about being

Speaker: black.

Speaker: They just never talked about it.

Speaker: And so that's his reference.

Speaker: It's like he doesn't know he

Speaker: thinks that, oh, I'm Theo from

Speaker: The Cosby Show or something like

Speaker: that.

Speaker: And all I have to do is put on a

Speaker: wig and take some tanning pills

Speaker: and mission accomplished, you

Speaker: know?

Speaker: And so for a lot of people, that was their reference.

Speaker: But at the same time, you kind of have to recognize, despite

Speaker: what you think about Bill Cosby, that that was kind of necessary

Speaker: at the time, because the only thing that black people were

Speaker: known for up until then was like breakdancing and shit like that.

Speaker: Like, there weren't a ton of positive role models that showed

Speaker: that, you know, you could, you know, be successful and just be

Speaker: like a normal family, you know.

Speaker: And and so very happy that The Cosby Show existed.

Speaker: But, you know, Mark's an idiot.

Speaker: And I'm going to keep saying

Speaker: that throughout this entire

Speaker: podcast.

Speaker: Mark is a fucking idiot.

Speaker: Totally.

Speaker: Fine.

Speaker: You're not going to get any argument from me.

Speaker: But yeah, to go back to that, at that time, like most of what

Speaker: white America saw was on television, and The Cosby Show

Speaker: is absolutely the only show at that time to ever show a black

Speaker: family as affluent.

Speaker: Everything else, whether it's

Speaker: what's happening or whether it's

Speaker: anything from the the Lear

Speaker: universe, it's always going to

Speaker: be showing them as struggling,

Speaker: having a good time, happy go

Speaker: lucky, whatever.

Speaker: But it was always within this constraints of like urban life.

Speaker: And that's what it was like.

Speaker: So groundbreaking too.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: You know, so once again, I mean, going back to Mark and his

Speaker: comment about the Cosby decade, you know, and saying America

Speaker: loves black people.

Speaker: I mean, I laughed out loud.

Speaker: That was the first time I laughed out loud in the movie,

Speaker: by the way.

Speaker: Like when I was rewatching it.

Speaker: He's like, America loves black people.

Speaker: Everything is going to be fine.

Speaker: I was just like, oh, buddy, just you wait.

Speaker: And I mean, but that in and of

Speaker: itself is pointing directly to

Speaker: his ignorance.

Speaker: I rose my hand and covered my mouth in horror when he said

Speaker: that, because it was like one after the other.

Speaker: It was America loves black people.

Speaker: Then followed by look at Bill Cosby.

Speaker: Yeah I know.

Speaker: There are so many, so many

Speaker: things, so many thoughts, so

Speaker: many thoughts.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah, I think that was also followed by it's just so much

Speaker: was going on.

Speaker: There's so much.

Speaker: There's a lot.

Speaker: Keep going.

Speaker: What else?

Speaker: Oh, let's talk about the, um,

Speaker: looking at his landlord, played

Speaker: by Leslie Nielsen, and then his

Speaker: daughter.

Speaker: That was Jan from the office.

Speaker: We love Jan. We love Jan. It was

Speaker: hard to watch Jan in this role

Speaker: again.

Speaker: Yes, it was very difficult to watch Jan throw herself at Marc.

Speaker: That was fetishizing him and it was very cringey.

Speaker: And then at the same time, she

Speaker: was also very young and I

Speaker: imagine that this was her first

Speaker: role.

Speaker: So I just imagined she didn't really have much say.

Speaker: Can I, can I just say something like when I was watching, like

Speaker: the first scene with Melora Hardin, the first thing that I

Speaker: wrote down was she gives amazing fetishize her eyes because she

Speaker: is looking at him like he is a slab of fucking meat and she is

Speaker: like ready to go for it, man.

Speaker: She does crazy so well.

Speaker: She does crazy great.

Speaker: She's fantastic.

Speaker: Like if like the direction must have been, I'm guessing it must

Speaker: have been like, imagine you are a woman and your only fantasy.

Speaker: Like you get off on the

Speaker: suffering of other people and

Speaker: like, this guy epitomizes

Speaker: suffering and it just gets you

Speaker: off.

Speaker: And she was like, got it?

Speaker: You know, I always I think she

Speaker: just wanted to make her dad

Speaker: upset.

Speaker: Oh for sure.

Speaker: I mean, well, I mean, I think that's definitely part of it.

Speaker: I think that both are true, right?

Speaker: And maybe, like her, her love of black men manifested itself out

Speaker: of her hatred for her father to, like, get back at her dad.

Speaker: If you actually look at this as a prequel to The Office, it

Speaker: actually makes a lot of sense.

Speaker: Like, this is just like Jan's origin story.

Speaker: And then she, like, goes on and, like, becomes an unhinged boss

Speaker: of a paper company and then, like, loses her mind and starts

Speaker: making candles at home.

Speaker: Like it all.

Speaker: Like the trajectory of it makes complete sense, by the way, that

Speaker: if that's a sign of like, you losing your mind, that makes me

Speaker: very sad, because that just sounds like a very peaceful

Speaker: activity, but okay, of, like, making candles at home.

Speaker: Why not?

Speaker: I just feel like your house would smell like it would smell

Speaker: like flowers constantly.

Speaker: It sounds amazing.

Speaker: It smelled like every candle.

Speaker: Oh. You're right.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Never mind.

Speaker: I don't want that.

Speaker: That's what that was like.

Speaker: The plot point of like three.

Speaker: The episode.

Speaker: I'd probably crack a window or something, but.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Point taken.

Speaker: Can I just point out that there's an actual crime?

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: What was the actual crime?

Speaker: Fraud.

Speaker: Oh, yeah.

Speaker: Fraud.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Oh, yeah.

Speaker: Fraud.

Speaker: Like he.

Speaker: What he did was straight up illegal.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker: Like fraud.

Speaker: He impersonated somebody of a

Speaker: different race in order to

Speaker: basically steal money from an

Speaker: organization to fund his

Speaker: education.

Speaker: That is fraud.

Speaker: That's super fraud.

Speaker: Super fraud.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker: And, uh, didn't really pay the price for it and just went on

Speaker: his merry way.

Speaker: Unless you count working in the cafeteria is paying a price.

Speaker: No, I do not.

Speaker: I absolutely do not.

Speaker: In the eighties, that was seen as the ultimate shun.

Speaker: Really?

Speaker: Because Ray did it like throughout the movie.

Speaker: And no, that was a joke, obviously.

Speaker: But but yeah, I mean it's to show.

Speaker: Well, we get we'll I guess we'll get to it.

Speaker: What other crimes or troubling things did you find?

Speaker: I think that's everything I made a list for, because at that

Speaker: point, the only other thing that I found that kind of offended

Speaker: me, but it also kind of made me laugh in a more horrifying way,

Speaker: where all of his impressions.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: It's more of just a crime against comedy.

Speaker: Uh, some of it was actually kind of funny, though.

Speaker: I mean, again, it's nothing you would ever see.

Speaker: I want to say something you would ever see.

Speaker: But then I recently saw it on Saturday Night Live with Rami

Speaker: Malek doing prints.

Speaker: Oh, and he did a really good prince.

Speaker: But then they did call him out,

Speaker: but he didn't do it in full

Speaker: blackface either.

Speaker: Well, because he looks kind of pretty.

Speaker: Yeah, because he looks kind of princey.

Speaker: And then they called him out at the end.

Speaker: He's like, well, you can't be Prince because you're white.

Speaker: So obviously we're going to go with Kenan.

Speaker: You know, um.

Speaker: Fair point.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: So talking about things that

Speaker: were bad, that still made me

Speaker: laugh.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Because I, I'm, I'm positive I

Speaker: laughed more than you did in

Speaker: this movie.

Speaker: Oh, yeah.

Speaker: Absolutely.

Speaker: Um.

Speaker: So.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: The impersonations were great.

Speaker: Let's talk about impersonations first.

Speaker: Let's go into detail about impersonations.

Speaker: Let's do a deep dive.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: So the first one that we see is the mom, like, fantasizing that

Speaker: this black man is, like, ripping her blouse off and saying he's

Speaker: gonna take her, like, is kind of like the fantasy of a wild black

Speaker: man who is, like, aggressive in bed and is just going to take

Speaker: this white woman and like it.

Speaker: I mean, when I saw it, I mean, it's so over the top.

Speaker: It's so bad.

Speaker: It's so over the top.

Speaker: So you have to imagine setting the stage a little bit.

Speaker: So C Thomas Howell gets invited over to Melora Hardin's House.

Speaker: Leslie Nielsen as her dad, meets

Speaker: the mom and the son for the

Speaker: first time.

Speaker: Sons like maybe ten or something, listening to his

Speaker: headphones at the dinner table.

Speaker: And when they're looking at him, they each have their own fantasy

Speaker: of what they imagine him to be.

Speaker: The mom thinks of him as like

Speaker: this, you know, savage, like

Speaker: black man who rips her clothes

Speaker: off and wants to have his way

Speaker: with her.

Speaker: The funniest one was the kid imagining him to be Prince.

Speaker: The Prince impersonation.

Speaker: Come on, the Prince is the best one.

Speaker: You didn't laugh at Prince.

Speaker: I laughed at Prince.

Speaker: I laughed at the mom one because that was like, full on big Jim

Speaker: Slade from Kentucky Fried Movie.

Speaker: Oh, is what it kind of reminded me of.

Speaker: And it was like kind of a parody of those, like, blaxploitation

Speaker: movies that came out.

Speaker: And so it was one hundred percent that.

Speaker: And then I laughed at Prince,

Speaker: the Prince, because it just

Speaker: shocked me.

Speaker: I had completely blocked that

Speaker: out as a child, and I was

Speaker: literally, like, brought my

Speaker: hands to my face and went, oh my

Speaker: God.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So so the kid is like looking at

Speaker: him as like a popular black

Speaker: musician.

Speaker: Like they must all be good at music or something like that.

Speaker: And so he's envisioning Prince and Thomas Howell, God bless

Speaker: him, does his best with the tongue, with the tongue against

Speaker: like, the tar and the teeth and like, like, you know, the guitar

Speaker: against the groin.

Speaker: I mean, it's you have to see it, you have to be there.

Speaker: But it's pretty funny.

Speaker: And then and then Leslie

Speaker: Nielsen's fantasy is just like,

Speaker: whoo, ooh, ooh, that one hurt a

Speaker: bit.

Speaker: That one, that one.

Speaker: I was just like, ah, okay.

Speaker: Do you want to explain it or no I don't.

Speaker: Okay, I'll do it.

Speaker: I'll do it.

Speaker: Like I said, I'm taking a lot of the heat here.

Speaker: I'm gonna I'm gonna say it and

Speaker: make Erin uncomfortable, but not

Speaker: as uncomfortable as she would be

Speaker: had she had to explain what this

Speaker: scene is.

Speaker: So essentially, Leslie Nielsen envisions Seattle.

Speaker: Okay, so his daughters without

Speaker: makeup, pregnant in like, a

Speaker: nightgown and sitting at the

Speaker: dinner table, and Saint Thomas

Speaker: Howell is it's so bad as a wedge

Speaker: of watermelon in his hand that

Speaker: he's eating.

Speaker: He's dressed like a pimp, and

Speaker: he's just like going to town on

Speaker: this watermelon.

Speaker: And he's saying, hey, bitch, go

Speaker: get my heroin and my hypodermic

Speaker: needle.

Speaker: And like.

Speaker: And he looks at Leslie Nielsen, goes, what are you looking at?

Speaker: And it's bad.

Speaker: It's really bad.

Speaker: And the only reason I'm laughing

Speaker: is because it's so bad I can't

Speaker: help it.

Speaker: It's just an illogical reaction

Speaker: to it because it's so over the

Speaker: top bad.

Speaker: And I cannot believe that they did it, that it's hilarious that

Speaker: they actually did it.

Speaker: That's why I'm laughing.

Speaker: Aaron is horrified.

Speaker: She's speechless.

Speaker: I'm gonna.

Speaker: It's just that at some point, there had to be other people in

Speaker: that writers room or someone that just kind of go, this isn't

Speaker: funny because there are people that were working on this film

Speaker: that that was offensive because there had to.

Speaker: But I'm willing to overlook it for the sake of comedy.

Speaker: Well, here's here's the thing, though.

Speaker: So once again, trying to give the benefit of the doubt here a

Speaker: little bit, because I don't feel like I should be having an

Speaker: opinion on this again.

Speaker: I feel very uncomfortable having an opinion.

Speaker: That's what makes this so fun for me.

Speaker: Um, okay.

Speaker: So, like, I'm not gonna get that

Speaker: many other opportunities to do

Speaker: this.

Speaker: Let's go.

Speaker: Um, so, so you have to wait until we're.

Speaker: We're gonna tear apart Yentl, and then we are.

Speaker: I'm all over it, and then I'm just be like, fuck.

Speaker: Um, I don't want to talk about this.

Speaker: Um, so.

Speaker: Okay, if you look at it from the perspective of.

Speaker: They're trying to show what Leslie Nielsen's character

Speaker: thinks of him, right?

Speaker: Which is awful, which is terrible.

Speaker: He's thinking a terrible fucking

Speaker: thing about her starting to give

Speaker: him, like, this whole iceberg

Speaker: slim.

Speaker: Kind of like these are my hoes kind of thing.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Like.

Speaker: And I get it.

Speaker: And it's just that.

Speaker: Jesus fucking Christ, they went for it.

Speaker: I mean, they really went for it.

Speaker: Really went for it.

Speaker: Yeah they did.

Speaker: But it is all to kind of prove

Speaker: this point about how this family

Speaker: is perceiving him against all of

Speaker: these different stereotypes,

Speaker: right?

Speaker: And in Leslie Nielsen's character's case, it is like why

Speaker: he didn't want any black people living in his apartment building

Speaker: is because that's the way he sees them, right?

Speaker: And so maybe the idea was to not

Speaker: whitewash it and to not make it

Speaker: subtle, because what he thought

Speaker: was so extreme that he just

Speaker: didn't want any of these people

Speaker: around his daughter at all, you

Speaker: know?

Speaker: So that's the way I'm choosing to frame it, because if I'm

Speaker: looking at the movie as a whole and what I think it's trying to

Speaker: do, it's terrible.

Speaker: It's an awful, awful scene.

Speaker: But it gets a pass because it's

Speaker: trying to depict a very real

Speaker: thing that people like Leslie

Speaker: Nielsen's character think about

Speaker: black men.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: And I get all that.

Speaker: Here's where my issue lies.

Speaker: And it's kind of like, again,

Speaker: the LA times article that you

Speaker: passed around.

Speaker: And if you ever want to look it up, it's called Soul Man.

Speaker: Not even good intentions makes this one bearable.

Speaker: And it's by Sheila Benson.

Speaker: They're describing filming one of the scenes, and they're

Speaker: describing the scene where the two bros from Harvard are

Speaker: walking through the cafeteria, and they're telling racist jokes

Speaker: to each other.

Speaker: And as these two bros are walking through the cafeteria

Speaker: telling these racist jokes to each other, the entire cast are

Speaker: watching them from behind the camera, stone faced.

Speaker: And the writer is observing them and mentioning that C Thomas

Speaker: Howell is not laughing.

Speaker: Rae Dawn Chong is not.

Speaker: No one is laughing at these jokes.

Speaker: In fact, they are all very unhappy at these jokes or that

Speaker: is what they look like.

Speaker: Then the article continues to go

Speaker: on to mention that the director

Speaker: who wrote and rewrote much of

Speaker: the script, Steve Miner, and he,

Speaker: uh, he actually he's a pretty

Speaker: decent director.

Speaker: He did House and he did Lake

Speaker: Placid, and he did Halloween,

Speaker: H2O, and Friday the thirteenth

Speaker: part two.

Speaker: He explains that basically, he

Speaker: wanted to create a film where

Speaker: laughing at the jokes made the

Speaker: audience feel bad because he

Speaker: wanted to make a point about

Speaker: racism.

Speaker: But it dawns on me that in doing that, that means that he just

Speaker: wanted a white audience, because you're not going to get that

Speaker: reaction or that feeling from any other type of audience.

Speaker: You're not going to get that from a Jewish audience.

Speaker: You're not going to get that from a black audience.

Speaker: You're not going to get that from any kind of minority.

Speaker: You're only going to get that

Speaker: from a white male audience,

Speaker: probably.

Speaker: That the idea that they would feel.

Speaker: And I think that the idea that

Speaker: they would feel bad would be a

Speaker: leap.

Speaker: Mhm.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I mean that's a solid point.

Speaker: And I think I'm going to challenge that a little bit only

Speaker: because I think that you're like ninety percent right for sure.

Speaker: Like and I think that it is told

Speaker: from a very white perspective

Speaker: which is why it's so over the

Speaker: top in certain scenes and

Speaker: certain areas.

Speaker: Like the entire movie's over the top, let's be honest.

Speaker: But I think that there's also kind of.

Speaker: Like a generational thing, too.

Speaker: I think that more modern

Speaker: audiences are going to be

Speaker: horrified.

Speaker: You know, if you ask some older generations and stuff, I'm not

Speaker: going to name anybody by name, but I know a couple people who

Speaker: are like, there used to be a time when you could make fun of

Speaker: other people and everybody would laugh at it.

Speaker: Like, there used to be a time when black people could make fun

Speaker: of white people.

Speaker: White people can make fun of black people, Latino people can

Speaker: make fun of black.

Speaker: And everybody was kind of like in on the joke.

Speaker: And they rib each other and it was fine.

Speaker: And, um, we're all able to laugh at one another.

Speaker: And I think that, like,

Speaker: economics plays a little bit

Speaker: into it.

Speaker: I think that if you're more affluent, you're more prone to

Speaker: think that this is horrifying, too, because I think that humor,

Speaker: like especially for something as silly as this, I think that, you

Speaker: know, there are certain people, things that people care about,

Speaker: and there's certain things that other people can't afford to

Speaker: really care about.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: And I think that this is like

Speaker: one of those things where if you

Speaker: look at older generations, if

Speaker: you look at generations that,

Speaker: you know, aren't as up on, for

Speaker: lack of a better term, like woke

Speaker: culture or whatever, a lot of

Speaker: them are gonna laugh at this

Speaker: movie.

Speaker: You know, and it's and they're

Speaker: not going to think it's that big

Speaker: a deal, especially if you zoom

Speaker: out and look at what it's trying

Speaker: to do.

Speaker: Now, I don't think a lot of

Speaker: people would admit that, but I

Speaker: do think that those people are

Speaker: out there.

Speaker: But but I think that on the whole, like, you're right, like

Speaker: I think that it is meant for a very specific type of audience

Speaker: and how it's told from the perspective of how white people

Speaker: think about black people and what their struggles look like.

Speaker: And you know, what the

Speaker: stereotypes look like and

Speaker: everything.

Speaker: Um, so, so, so I do think that

Speaker: there is a lot of truth to what

Speaker: you're saying.

Speaker: I don't want you to think that I completely hate this movie,

Speaker: although I do kind of.

Speaker: Yeah, she does, but I don't want to, like, I don't.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: I really didn't want to walk into this movie and just

Speaker: immediately hate it completely.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So I do want to walk away with some positive things.

Speaker: So I'm going to say this my

Speaker: positive take this movie really

Speaker: makes you appreciate Tropic

Speaker: Thunder.

Speaker: Oh my God.

Speaker: By the way, I have in my notes I

Speaker: said, you never, ever, ever,

Speaker: ever, ever do blackface unless

Speaker: you're Robert Downey Jr or

Speaker: Tropic Thunder, in which case

Speaker: it's hilarious.

Speaker: I feel like Tropic Thunder the reason Tropic Thunder was made,

Speaker: specifically Robert Downey Jr's character Tropic Thunder was

Speaker: because of this movie.

Speaker: Probably, yeah.

Speaker: Because.

Speaker: Because they knew.

Speaker: Well, that's the thing.

Speaker: Because they knew it was so bad.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: They were like, let's try it out.

Speaker: Because if there is like a movie

Speaker: that is so over the top, it's

Speaker: brilliant.

Speaker: That gets away with it is Tropic Thunder because like tonally

Speaker: it's super consistent, right?

Speaker: Even in the, in the, in the parts of Tropic Thunder where

Speaker: there's supposed to be like that revelation by like Ben Stiller's

Speaker: character, he's like, I do care.

Speaker: I remembered his name.

Speaker: I remember, you know, like it's ridiculous.

Speaker: It's hilarious.

Speaker: It's not even remotely serious, right?

Speaker: So they keep the same tone throughout the entire movie.

Speaker: And the thing about Solomon is that it kind of doesn't do that

Speaker: completely, which makes it tonally a little bit weird

Speaker: sometimes, which is why it's hard to grasp on to what they're

Speaker: trying to do some of the time.

Speaker: That's what makes Tropic Thunder so much better movie, because it

Speaker: does everything that Solomon failed to do.

Speaker: Oh, don't get it twisted.

Speaker: Tropic Thunder is a masterpiece.

Speaker: Like like there is no competition between Solomon and

Speaker: Tropic Thunder at all.

Speaker: And Robert Downey Jr, like, I'm sorry, that holds up.

Speaker: It does.

Speaker: Like, I watched it recently, it's still totally holds up.

Speaker: It's amazing.

Speaker: And I do not I'm gonna defend Robert Downey Jr in blackface

Speaker: till the day I fucking die because it was incredible.

Speaker: It was just incredible.

Speaker: It was so good.

Speaker: It was like so well done.

Speaker: And it was hilarious.

Speaker: And they they were fully in on the joke the entire time.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Stay tuned for our next podcast,

Speaker: just the Tropic Thunder

Speaker: appreciation podcast.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: Yeah, that's definitely necessary.

Speaker: Okay, let me think.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: I have another thing that was, um, that really bothered me in

Speaker: this movie and which which makes it weird and which makes it

Speaker: harder to defend.

Speaker: And I'm not sure what to think about this scene.

Speaker: So, you know, his friend Gordo, who is like, throughout most of

Speaker: the movie, kind of like, I mean, he's like his guy, his best

Speaker: friend, you know, but he's also kind of like the little guy on

Speaker: his shoulder saying, sure, you should do that.

Speaker: You sure you should do that?

Speaker: Knows Mark's an idiot, but you

Speaker: know it's still there for his

Speaker: friend at the end when Mark is

Speaker: kind of, like, exposed, he's

Speaker: supposed to go in front of the

Speaker: committee and everything, and

Speaker: then Gordo goes up and makes

Speaker: this big speech about why he

Speaker: deserves leniency.

Speaker: And it's basically like the affluenza defense.

Speaker: And I was like, fuck that dude.

Speaker: That bothered me.

Speaker: That did bother me.

Speaker: And it kind of went against what the movie was saying at the end.

Speaker: Right?

Speaker: Like because his friend basically says he's an idiot.

Speaker: He grew up with wealth.

Speaker: He didn't know any better.

Speaker: So you should just kind of let

Speaker: him off easy, which is not the

Speaker: right thing that you're supposed

Speaker: to do.

Speaker: Like he should never have said that he.

Speaker: That speech should have ended after two sentences.

Speaker: And it's like, yeah, he knew he did something wrong.

Speaker: He deserves to be punished for it.

Speaker: And that's it.

Speaker: That's done.

Speaker: It's done.

Speaker: But he didn't do that.

Speaker: He went further and was just trying to rationalize why he's

Speaker: not that bad.

Speaker: And that to me is the biggest crime in the movie, is him

Speaker: trying to rationalize what he did because he's too wealthy and

Speaker: stupid to know better.

Speaker: I don't see how either of these guys got into Harvard.

Speaker: I just it just doesn't make no sense.

Speaker: He's an idiot.

Speaker: Like.

Speaker: And that's the thing too, is, like, I don't think that they

Speaker: want us to like Mark at all in the movie in the beginning.

Speaker: Like, he's not likable at all.

Speaker: He's an absolute jackass.

Speaker: And his friend.

Speaker: Slightly more redeeming, I guess, because he just didn't

Speaker: have to use blackface.

Speaker: I don't know, but he's not a good guy.

Speaker: He's not that smart.

Speaker: He's a goof off in class.

Speaker: Like, why would you go into your Harvard Law School class and,

Speaker: like, goof off in front of a professor that looks like James

Speaker: Earl Jones is beyond me.

Speaker: And he makes a series of stupid assumptions on his own

Speaker: throughout the film, too.

Speaker: It's not he's not some innocent in this at all.

Speaker: And I don't think that they're

Speaker: trying to convince us that he

Speaker: is.

Speaker: And I think that we start to see the turn when he starts to fall

Speaker: for Radon Chong's character.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: And we're supposed to be a

Speaker: little bit sympathetic to that

Speaker: because we got a montage after

Speaker: all.

Speaker: And that's what they wanted us to think.

Speaker: So, yeah, I don't know how they got into Harvard.

Speaker: I don't like the movie itself the way that it paints.

Speaker: Marc.

Speaker: I think by the end I'm a little bit, you know, do I think he got

Speaker: the right punishment?

Speaker: Probably not.

Speaker: He probably got off a little bit too easy.

Speaker: But I appreciated the message at the very end.

Speaker: Which is why it's weird Because when Gordo was making his

Speaker: speech, it kind of flies in the face of the lesson it's trying

Speaker: to teach us.

Speaker: I feel like.

Speaker: All right, so you're going to go into the speech, which I think

Speaker: you make a very excellent point, and then I'm going to destroy

Speaker: your point with a stupid remark at the end.

Speaker: So I want you to make your very heartfelt plea about why this

Speaker: movie has redeeming quality, because it's very well done.

Speaker: And then I'm going to make.

Speaker: Wait, are we done with.

Speaker: Are we done talking about the Criming?

Speaker: Are we done?

Speaker: Uh, we forgot the, uh, one last

Speaker: impression, which is the Stevie

Speaker: Wonder impression.

Speaker: That is a crime, by the way.

Speaker: Which is very much a crime.

Speaker: I listed it under impersonating having a disability.

Speaker: But it's way worse than that

Speaker: because it's just a bad Stevie

Speaker: Wonder.

Speaker: It's just a bad Stevie Wonder impression that I feel like no

Speaker: one is going to get now.

Speaker: And because, like, Stevie's been out of the public eye for so

Speaker: long, then no one's going to understand that reference.

Speaker: And he was just not even doing a Stevie Wonder impression.

Speaker: He was doing an impression of

Speaker: Eddie Murphy doing a Stevie

Speaker: Wonder impression.

Speaker: Was he because Eddie Murphy was pretty good doing a Stevie

Speaker: Wonder impression like.

Speaker: I did not catch any Eddie Murphy in that impersonation.

Speaker: It was just like it was a weird, awkward, not good, unnecessary

Speaker: Stevie Wonder impersonation.

Speaker: I just saw it as like a bad SNL impression.

Speaker: Yeah, it was an impression of an impression.

Speaker: It was just, uh.

Speaker: Yeah, it was just, uh.

Speaker: Everything.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: You know that that was a crime.

Speaker: It was pretty bad.

Speaker: Um, so do we want to go to, uh, Chuck or cherish?

Speaker: She's just looking at my face in abject horror.

Speaker: No. I'm not.

Speaker: I'm wearing a face of abject horror.

Speaker: She is.

Speaker: And she's like.

Speaker: She's like, don't make me talk about this film anymore.

Speaker: It's nothing to cherish.

Speaker: But go ahead.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Go ahead.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Here, here.

Speaker: I'm not gonna I'm not I'm not making a verdict completely on

Speaker: the Chuck or cherish angle, but here's here's what I will say.

Speaker: The movie.

Speaker: If you zoom out and look at what it's trying to say, now, you

Speaker: have to put aside the fact that it's a movie with a man whose

Speaker: main character is entirely in blackface, like the entire time,

Speaker: or ninety percent of the time.

Speaker: And that is its biggest crime, right?

Speaker: You just don't do it.

Speaker: And you definitely don't have.

Speaker: See, Thomas, I'll do it.

Speaker: But when you look at it, it's not against affirmative action.

Speaker: It's not making that argument.

Speaker: A lot of people think that this

Speaker: movie is against affirmative

Speaker: action.

Speaker: It's not.

Speaker: Mark is not meant to be likable, I don't think.

Speaker: I mean, I certainly didn't like him, which made, I think, like,

Speaker: the ending work a little bit better for me.

Speaker: I think it is meant to be a satire, which is why it's so

Speaker: over the top in so many places.

Speaker: I think it's trying to beat you over the head with a point.

Speaker: I think, like the most annoying part of it was the two guys

Speaker: making the jokes.

Speaker: I'm like, do you just walk around making black people jokes

Speaker: all day long?

Speaker: Like, how does he keep on

Speaker: catching you, making black

Speaker: people?

Speaker: Like, do you have no other topics of conversation?

Speaker: Like, that thing was like a

Speaker: little bit too on the nose for

Speaker: me.

Speaker: I did need all of that.

Speaker: But you know, Melora Hardin's character is trying to say

Speaker: something about white women fetishizing black people.

Speaker: Leslie Nielsen's character is

Speaker: trying to say that there are

Speaker: white people in power who are

Speaker: like landowners and can evict

Speaker: people for, you know, for racist

Speaker: reasons.

Speaker: There are, you know, you have, like James Earl Jones character

Speaker: who's like, I'm not going to give you like special treatment

Speaker: just because, like, you're a black man, like it's trying to

Speaker: make so many points through its characters that I think that if

Speaker: you look at the theme around them, like they're very true.

Speaker: And I think at the end, like when Mark gets exposed, people

Speaker: realize what he's done.

Speaker: He goes into James Earl Jones office and this is after, like,

Speaker: the affluenza speech, which I still hate, which is why it's so

Speaker: weird to like.

Speaker: But that scene up against this one.

Speaker: But he goes into the office and

Speaker: he says all these things that

Speaker: he's going to do to make right

Speaker: by what he did, which is like,

Speaker: you know, he's going to have a

Speaker: scholarship in the name of

Speaker: Sarah's character.

Speaker: He's going to work in

Speaker: communities to help black

Speaker: people.

Speaker: He's going to do that like he looks like five different things

Speaker: that he's going to do.

Speaker: And James Earl Jones looks at him very proudly and says, wow,

Speaker: you finally understand what it's like to be black.

Speaker: And this is the most important part of the movie to me.

Speaker: And he says, like Saint Thomas

Speaker: Howell's character that is,

Speaker: says, no, I don't, because I

Speaker: knew I could get out of it at

Speaker: any time.

Speaker: And I think that's was the point, because, Mark, this

Speaker: entire time he's thinking, he's acting like a black person.

Speaker: He's living the life as a black person where he really isn't

Speaker: because he had an escape route.

Speaker: And the fact that was the part that sealed it for me was like,

Speaker: okay, I think I understand what this movie was trying to do and

Speaker: made it more forgivable for me.

Speaker: Despite having an entire movie

Speaker: where the main characters in

Speaker: Black Face.

Speaker: I think that if you look at it like in that sense of that was

Speaker: like the ultimate lesson that he had to learn, that he really

Speaker: doesn't know what it's like, but he still owes something back.

Speaker: That I think is important.

Speaker: And I think that's an important distinction.

Speaker: And looking at the movie and deciding whether or not it's

Speaker: worthy of, you know, the criticism that it's gotten and

Speaker: it's worthy of a lot of the criticism that it's gotten.

Speaker: But, you know, I'm trying to give it a little bit of grace

Speaker: just because of of that.

Speaker: I respect your opinion.

Speaker: I hear you.

Speaker: I'm trying real hard here.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: I see you, and there's space for you in my heart.

Speaker: I feel that it is a good speech at the end, but it is completely

Speaker: negated by eighty minutes of movie before that.

Speaker: And the reason is, is because there was no other thought put

Speaker: into this character other than the fact that it was the color

Speaker: of his skin that changed.

Speaker: He didn't put any thought into his background.

Speaker: He didn't put any thought into

Speaker: the character that he was trying

Speaker: to create, or any thought into

Speaker: his clothing or any thought, and

Speaker: he didn't do any research into

Speaker: the character.

Speaker: He didn't do any.

Speaker: There was no thought.

Speaker: But that's put into this about his character.

Speaker: He's an idiot.

Speaker: He's stupid.

Speaker: And then everybody else is an idiot.

Speaker: And the whole movie is just a

Speaker: horrendous stereotype, followed

Speaker: by stereotype, followed by

Speaker: stereotype with very few

Speaker: redeeming qualities that when

Speaker: you take it as a whole, it's

Speaker: very difficult that it can be

Speaker: redeemed.

Speaker: And the problem I have with it is not just the eighty minutes

Speaker: that comes before it, but that at the end, the final

Speaker: conversation that he has with Ray, where the word interracial

Speaker: relationship is said like a dozen times, to the point where

Speaker: my left eye started to twitch like it sounded like she he was

Speaker: fetishizing her at that point.

Speaker: Because why would you mention it so many times?

Speaker: Like it's obvious.

Speaker: Like that's that point doesn't need to be mentioned anymore.

Speaker: That was the point of it.

Speaker: Like, they were already a goofy looking couple, even when he was

Speaker: pretending to be black.

Speaker: Okay, that was weird because she was clearly out of his league.

Speaker: Okay, now she's still clearly out of his league.

Speaker: Okay, he's just a goofy looking white guy.

Speaker: It doesn't matter if they're an interracial couple.

Speaker: He doesn't need to keep bringing it up.

Speaker: Okay, but this was the eighties,

Speaker: and that was a much bigger deal

Speaker: back then.

Speaker: It's a much less big deal now than it was back then.

Speaker: And people don't talk about.

Speaker: What do you think about interracial relationships?

Speaker: Nobody talks about it that way.

Speaker: But back then you have to imagine, like those people had

Speaker: parents that like, grew up in the sixties, right.

Speaker: And, and and that was a very different time where there were

Speaker: like a lot of racial tensions.

Speaker: And depending on where you grew up, you probably had a very

Speaker: specific idea of what black people were like.

Speaker: You know, black people used to

Speaker: get asked, like if they grew

Speaker: tails in the middle of the

Speaker: night.

Speaker: Okay, I'm going to handle this with kid gloves because this is

Speaker: clearly not my wheelhouse.

Speaker: And there's no way I can add to this discussion.

Speaker: All I can tell you is that that ending dialogue was not handled

Speaker: well and was written badly.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: It just kind of threw out

Speaker: everything that he learned in a

Speaker: way.

Speaker: Sure.

Speaker: So it just didn't seem correct.

Speaker: It just seemed like, well, you learned nothing.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: You know, like, I think that also at the same time, it's

Speaker: like, impossible to almost do any scene like that, right?

Speaker: It's like it's just so, like with, like, movie storytelling

Speaker: formats and everything.

Speaker: It's like, how do you do that in the right way?

Speaker: Especially like in the eighties

Speaker: when people are still trying to

Speaker: figure shit out about race and

Speaker: everything, like when people

Speaker: there's still like a lot of I

Speaker: mean, there's still a lot of

Speaker: ignorance now, but even back

Speaker: then, like and like, look, I'm

Speaker: playing super devil's advocate

Speaker: right now.

Speaker: I'm playing devil's advocate

Speaker: right now because I am trying to

Speaker: find the redeeming qualities in

Speaker: the movie.

Speaker: Um, and I did find some, I did

Speaker: find some, but I did have to go

Speaker: through the exercise of, like,

Speaker: deprogramming before I watched

Speaker: it.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: And and so everything you're saying is dead on.

Speaker: And by the way, despite what I

Speaker: am saying right now, I think

Speaker: that anybody who completely

Speaker: writes this movie off is

Speaker: completely validated in doing

Speaker: that.

Speaker: Like, I am not gonna tell you you're wrong about that, but and

Speaker: it was kind of like an academic exercise to look at it and say,

Speaker: like, I'm gonna try and find some good stuff here.

Speaker: And I did find some things that

Speaker: I was amused by that I found

Speaker: charming and given when it was

Speaker: made.

Speaker: I want to try to appreciate the message from the end of the

Speaker: movie, because he really did screw her over.

Speaker: Oh, yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And then, like, if the movie

Speaker: just ended with like, hey, man,

Speaker: you took funding I really needed

Speaker: and now I don't have enough time

Speaker: to study.

Speaker: And I'm doing bad in work

Speaker: because in school, because I

Speaker: have to take this really shitty

Speaker: job and I have enough time for

Speaker: both school and my son and

Speaker: everything.

Speaker: It threw everything off for me

Speaker: because I was depending on this

Speaker: money.

Speaker: And on top of that, you lied to me.

Speaker: And I'm not really comfortable dating you because I feel like

Speaker: we don't have enough in common because of our backgrounds.

Speaker: Well, that's another kind of.

Speaker: It's a movie crime, not an actual crime.

Speaker: It's like what they do with women in, like, these romantic,

Speaker: um, situations, right?

Speaker: Where the guy winds up being like an enormous walking red

Speaker: flag and she's like, whatever, you're cute, you know?

Speaker: And then they just walk off into

Speaker: the sunset and everything's

Speaker: fine.

Speaker: And he's not that cute.

Speaker: And she's.

Speaker: See, Thomas sounds kind of cute, but like Rae Dawn Chong, it's

Speaker: like her character.

Speaker: They she was great.

Speaker: I love her in this movie, by the way.

Speaker: She's really good in it.

Speaker: Yeah, she's great and she's she's the best part.

Speaker: She is, she's she's so good.

Speaker: But I like the way that they

Speaker: shaped her character in the

Speaker: beginning.

Speaker: She's like very serious about her studies.

Speaker: Like she's no bullshit.

Speaker: You know, she's not mean, but she's just like, I don't have

Speaker: time for you right now.

Speaker: And, like, this goofy, whatever you're doing.

Speaker: Like, she rejects idiot Mark completely.

Speaker: And that is the character that I liked.

Speaker: And at the end she's just like, whatever, I don't care that you

Speaker: pretend you were black and stole all the money that was meant for

Speaker: my education, you know?

Speaker: Like, I like that.

Speaker: That is something that happened throughout.

Speaker: Still kind of happens now, but like happened a lot in movies

Speaker: from the eighties.

Speaker: She's the only one that didn't jump on the Trope Boat early on

Speaker: in the film, because he had.

Speaker: Julia Louis-Dreyfus is like the flighty preppy with, like, her

Speaker: flighty, preppy boyfriend.

Speaker: And then you had, like, the party guy, like, everybody was

Speaker: living like a stereotype.

Speaker: And she wasn't that until the very, very end when she was just

Speaker: like, well, let's give it a try.

Speaker: Even though you were this walking massive.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: She's like the straight man.

Speaker: She's like the most reliable character that we have.

Speaker: It's like we trust her to take us through this.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: And she like and at the end it

Speaker: kind of falls apart just

Speaker: because.

Speaker: Why the fuck would you take this guy back?

Speaker: I mean, sure, he shows, like, a

Speaker: little bit of remorse and

Speaker: everything.

Speaker: It's like he would have had to prove a lot more.

Speaker: It's like, how about let's be

Speaker: friends first and see how this

Speaker: goes.

Speaker: And then we can have a conversation instead of, you

Speaker: know, just being like, whatever.

Speaker: It's fine.

Speaker: Like, know nothing about what he did was fine.

Speaker: Nothing that is, like, psychotic what he did.

Speaker: So yeah, I don't I don't like that part of it either.

Speaker: I'm just like her character was too smart.

Speaker: Like they she played it too well in the beginning for her to

Speaker: realistically make this decision at the end.

Speaker: So she's in Harvard.

Speaker: She should know better, she should know better, and she's.

Speaker: She's smarter than this.

Speaker: We know this.

Speaker: All right.

Speaker: So final final.

Speaker: I don't know if I want to talk about Chuck or cherishing it

Speaker: after I attempted to give a full throated defense of it, but, um.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Chuck or cherish.

Speaker: I'm gonna chuck it.

Speaker: I'm gonna pad my little Chuck with, like, a fun little fact.

Speaker: Here's a fun little fact, okay?

Speaker: Tim Robbins was supposed to star in it, but he decided not to so

Speaker: he can star in, um, Howard the Duck, you know?

Speaker: Do you know who else was who's considered for the role?

Speaker: Mm.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Get ready.

Speaker: Buckle up.

Speaker: Buttercup.

Speaker: Anthony.

Speaker: Michael.

Speaker: Hall.

Speaker: Anthony Edwards, Val Kilmer, and John Cusack.

Speaker: Chew on that one for a little bit, will ya?

Speaker: That would have been.

Speaker: That would have.

Speaker: Like, can you imagine?

Speaker: I mean, Val Kilmer in the eighties doing blackface.

Speaker: What?

Speaker: This came out in eighty six.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So this is like Top Gun around Top Gun.

Speaker: I mean, he chose wisely.

Speaker: Chose Iceman.

Speaker: Everybody in that list chose wisely.

Speaker: Yes, except for Tim Robbins.

Speaker: Well, I still think Tim Robbins chose wisely, comparatively.

Speaker: I don't want to talk to you anymore.

Speaker: So you can't trust the thing Erin says.

Speaker: No. Compared to this movie, to Howard the Duck.

Speaker: Wait until you hear the revenge of the nerds episode.

Speaker: She watched all four movies.

Speaker: Listen willingly.

Speaker: I'm not saying Howard the Duck is good.

Speaker: I'm saying Howard the Duck is better than this.

Speaker: When choosing between two evils, you go with the lesser evil.

Speaker: I guess that's fair.

Speaker: That's fair.

Speaker: Spare my.

Speaker: You know.

Speaker: Okay, here's what I'm going to be subversive.

Speaker: I'm going to be subversive here.

Speaker: And I'm going to say cherish

Speaker: only but the asterisk with an

Speaker: asterisk.

Speaker: And it's only so that you can watch it and form your own

Speaker: opinion about it.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: I would say watch it as a time

Speaker: capsule of some stupid shit that

Speaker: people made in the eighties, and

Speaker: make your own assessment about

Speaker: what you take away from it and

Speaker: and have a conversation about

Speaker: it.

Speaker: That is an excellent, excellent point.

Speaker: That is an excellent point.

Speaker: I do enjoy watching things that

Speaker: are either banned or considered

Speaker: terrible, because I do feel that

Speaker: it encapsulates a specific time

Speaker: period.

Speaker: Um, keep in mind that when this was made in release, it was

Speaker: still considered, it was still considered very controversial,

Speaker: and it still got made and it still made money.

Speaker: Like, I think they made back all their money.

Speaker: Like it.

Speaker: Like I think it made thirty,

Speaker: forty million dollars, which at

Speaker: the time was like a lot because

Speaker: I think their budget was like

Speaker: four million or something like

Speaker: that.

Speaker: But so?

Speaker: So they made all their money back.

Speaker: Um, but but yeah, it's it's a

Speaker: movie to examine how, I guess,

Speaker: like how satire can go wrong,

Speaker: especially when blackface is

Speaker: involved.

Speaker: But, but but also, I would urge

Speaker: you to try and find something

Speaker: redeeming.

Speaker: And I found a little bit of stuff in there, and so I'm, I'm

Speaker: gonna say watch it and make up your own mind.

Speaker: It makes Robert Downey Jr's performance that much better.

Speaker: It does.

Speaker: By the way, it really does.

Speaker: That's my take Robert Downey Jr. Okay.

Speaker: Yeah, we gotta do Tropic Thunder.

Speaker: So I mean like that's.

Speaker: Yeah I need to watch that one again.

Speaker: It was just a brilliant, brilliant movie.

Speaker: All right.

Speaker: Do we have any more bonus batter?

Speaker: Do we have anything?

Speaker: Well, we know that C Thomas

Speaker: Howell Rae Dawn Chong got

Speaker: married.

Speaker: Yes, yes.

Speaker: So they both are into interracial relationships.

Speaker: All right, let's end on that one.

Speaker: Sorry, I didn't mean to bring that one back for you.

Speaker: Aaron doesn't even want to talk to me anymore.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Um, do you have do you have anything else you want to say

Speaker: about this film?

Speaker: No. Not much.

Speaker: Not much.

Speaker: I'm just going to take a shame shower later on.

Speaker: I know, I think that I think that we're both soiled.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: At the end of this conversation, I know that I need to wash

Speaker: something off myself, so.

Speaker: Um. Well, thanks for listening, everybody.

Speaker: It's been a pleasure.

Speaker: Go watch Soul Man.

Speaker: Probably the last movie to be made with unironic blackface.

Speaker: Watch it on VHS the way God meant for it to be watched.

Speaker: All grainy and weird.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: All right, have a good one, folks.

Speaker: Bye bye.

Speaker: Cinematic.

Speaker: Problematic.