In this first episode of the International Solidarity Movement podcast, we interview Abdel Karim – who has been with the movement since the early 2000s.

The ISM is a grassroots Palestinian-led organisation, with principles of non-violence , non-hierarchy, and anti oppression. It makes all of its decisions by consensus. Over the last 20 years it has been an important way for people internationally to get involved in the Palestinian popular struggle.

View the episode transcript here

Links:

• International Solidarity Movement website 
• Join ISM’s work in Palestine

If you would like an explanation of the terms used in this podcast, you can find a useful glossary on pages 140-154 of Shoal Collective's Ebook Interviews with Radical Palestinian Women.

Supported by Shoal Collective.

Hey, welcome to international solidarity

movement podcast [followed by Arabic translation]

Hello and welcome to the first episode of the

International Solidarity Movement podcast This podcast

has been made by three volunteers who visited the West

Bank in December 2022, to join the work of the Palestinian-led

International Solidarity Movement.

My name's Tom - and I first joined ISM over 20 years ago now

- In 2002. Since then I have been on many visits to Palestine

over the years. I made this podcast with my comrades Hazel

and Nicole. We wanted to make the podcast to amplify some of

the struggles that are happening right now in Palestine, and

particularly to raise awareness of the work of ISM. We're hoping

that some of you who'll listen might consider joining ISM in

Palestine. The three of us are involved in anti-repression

organising in the UK - supporting prisoners, and people

experiencing state repression. We wanted to learn about how

people in Palestine support each other in the face of the Israeli

occupation's prison system, and many of our interviews touch on

this subject. We've recorded a series of 14 interviews.

This first interview is with Abdel Karim, who's an amazing

Palestinian friend and comrade who has been with the ISM since

almost the beginning. We asked him some questions about himself

and what drew him to working with the International

Solidarity Movement. The ISM is a grassroots Palestinian led

organisation, with principles of non-violence , non-hierarchy,

and anti oppression. It makes all of its decisions by

consensus.

First a note about the way the use of the term non-violence in

this interview. ISM is part of the Palestinian popular

‘non-violent' unarmed. resistance against the

occupation (a resistance which - I should add - is met by extreme

militarised armed violence by the Israeli forcesand settlers).

In contrast to many strands of European pacifism', ISM does not

see non-violence as the only legitimate tactic against

Israeli colonisation. Instead the ISM points out that the

Palestinians have the right to use force to resist. However,

the goal of ISM is to use non-violent tactics as a way of

furthering the Palestinian struggle.

And now I'll pass over to Nicole and Abdel Karim:

Hello, thank you for joining us today. Please can you

share a little bit about yourself and how you got

involved with ISM?

What do you think is the role of internationalists who come?

Hello. Welcome and I'm happy meeting you and

working with you. I am Abdel Karim, [I am] Palestinian. Now

I'm a freelance journalist, but I used to be an activist and

also a human rights defender [for] last, like 30 years, after

[my] release from the prison.

I have been a student in Turkey, as a mechanical engineer. During

a vacation coming back to visit my family I was arrested,

accused to do [illegal] activity - at that time in '80s to be a

member even in the student union – the Palestinian student union

- or any political party, it is illegal according to the Israeli

occupation security system, which is not a real system, it

is an occupation system. So I spent like from 1984 until 1990

in prison - six years - sentenced first for five years

for being an activist and for membership in a political party

within the PLO [Palestine Liberation Organisation]. And

after six months of being

As you may know, that ISM, the International

Solidarity Movement, started in 2001 when some Palestinian

activists and other international volunteers [were]

here - found that during the Second Intifada when it started

in 2000 - that there is a need to do something to protect the

Palestinians, from the violence of the occupation forces at that

time, when they invade all the Palestinian cities, making

curfews, road blocks and killing a lot of Palestinians. So those

internationals and Palestinian activists joined together to act

and to participate in Palestinian non-violent direct

actions against the occupation. So it started like this. They

make their principles. As a journalist in Tulkarem, and in

the hot areas that was in the North - Nablus, Tulkarem, Jenin

and others - and there is a lot of international volunteers. So

we [made a local] group of this movement, I joined this

movement, because I like - I really convinced and like - the

principles and the rules that they are working with. [I was]

especially convinced with nonviolent direct action

resistance, including boycott as the most active way to show our

issue and to lead us for freedom.

What made me like ISM in general, is because at

that time, I [was] a member of different societies in Tulkarem,

including the Red Crescent. And, and we hosted those

international volunteers in our society, because they're doing a

great work for us. And as journalists… it leads me also to

free movement because the Israeli's occupation will put

more obstacles against Palestinian journalists, even

though we hold an International Press Card, we are mostly

targeted. International volunteers [did] much moving

[of] road blocks, breaking the curfews, joining the ambulances

to rescue the injured people. This great work involved me.

And also the rules, ISM have - used to have - three main

principles. First, the Palestinian-led organisation.

Even though it includes both Palestinians and internationals,

but [it is] Palestinian-led. Which means that we, as ISMers -

as a movement, as volunteers, believing in non-violence, will

follow what the Palestinian grassroots organisation, what

the grassroots needs, and what they've learned. Palestinian-led

means also that the international activists are not

initiating any kind of activity, They are just participating,

being in solidarity, stand[ing] hand-by-hand with the

Palestinians in direct non-violent actions.

So, the other principle is non violence, we believe in non

violence as a power, of nation, of people against the

oppression. So, non violence, it is not a tactic, it is a

The other thing that attracted me was that in the past, I was a

member in a political party, which depends on hierarchical -

I don't know this exactly in English - a hierarchical system.

And ISM is uhhierarchical. So, there [are] no leaders, all the

volunteers, all the members in this organisation are having the

strategy of ISM and the strategy of a lot of liberation

power of making decisions together. No leaders, and no

power - no one tell us what to do. We are doing what comes from

the grassroots, what are the needs from the community. So we

are here for like joining the Palestinian nonviolent struggle

being like a protective presence, and documenting the

violations from the Israeli occupation forces and settlers -

colonial settlers, illegal settlers - [who are] here acting

against Palestinian people, land, and their homes. [We are]

against the system of ethnic cleansing… house demolishing and

confiscating land and uprooting of trees, and everything

[that]'s happening from the occupation forces. And we are

believe in this also, ISM believes that the Palestinians

have the right to resist the occupation, according to the

international law - in every ways. But ISM like use the

nonviolent strategy in that struggle. So people are

appreciated those internationals, which gives

hope. Yeah, the issue is, in general, also, there is two

movements, for example like India, South Africa and other

other issues which attracted and encouraged people to join ISM.

First of all, ISM volunteers are self-funded. So we are not under

an umbrella of any political party, or any conditional funds

come from any side. So we have our independent policy. And also

most of all, they are not related or connected to any

political party. So we are connected to the needs of the

Palestinian movement, with the Palestinians. So this gives the

respect for ISM volunteers [in] the Palestinian community in general.

places.

What sort of things do people do like day to day? And

obviously, you know, it's been going a really long time - what

are some of the kinds of successes you've seen of like

the power of ISM here?

Yeah, there's a lot of successes, I said that seeing

international volunteers presence here in solidarity with

Palestinians gives the hope of Palestinians that we are not

alone, we will not lose the hope. Also ISM - in the past -

when they started building the apartheid wall against West

Bank, we managed to stop it and highlight how it affects the

Palestinian life. And in the past also ISM activists when

they are in solidarity with Palestinians who[se] homes will

be demolished, stay... at home resisting the demolition order,

either to [stop it], or delay it until the people can reach the

court and stop it. We have a lot of succe[ss] in this issue.

Nowadays, maybe the increasing of the violence from the

Israelis, and they didn't care about the international

volunteers Or even about the human rights, even in this case,

the highlight of the Palestinian case with volunteers, human

rights activists joining ISM in their countries because most of

the work for the international volunteers when they are seeing

in their eyes, what's happening here and participating and feel

what's happening here, when they return back they make a lot of

activities for Palestinians within their countries. They

managed to change a little bit public opinion in those

countries, to put pressure on their governments who usually -

specially European countries, United States - usually, like

supporting and still supporting Israel… so Palestinians reach

many succe[ss] in the field of highlight[ing] whats the life

under the occupation, and make a public opinion [that] the

Palestinian goals should be solved. The Palestinians should

have their rights for freedom, return and justice.

It's been like a real pleasure to meet you here, and

have training from you, and have little moments of conversation

with you about your life. And I think for people listening from

other countries it would be amazing if you can share a

little bit more about your background - if you feel

comfortable - like what politicised you?

This is not only me. It is it's happening for

every Palestinian, like students or even children, when they live

under the occupation for this long time. I [was] born - I am

60 years old, 65 actually, today is my birthday [laughter] - Yeah

65 years old.

I [was] born before the occupation of '67. And my family

used to be from Yaffa [Jaffa], from '48 [The name given to the

territories taken by Zionist forces in 1948]. But we are not

registered as refugees, we are living in Tulkarem, and we have

homes in Yaffa. So we lost most of our land. So Palestinian

people in general are very connected to politics because of

their cause. So as a child - nine years old born under the

occupation and in the ‘60's, ‘70's [there was] a lot of

resistance because we thought that this occupation should be

ended - so I involved in politics, as a child in the

school - because at that time [in the] '70s there is a lot of

military forces in our lives, in between our homes every day. We

are facing them, [they] invaded our schools, killing... and we

are involved in demonstrations - and most of the time, from '67

until '93, when the PA [Palestinian Authority]

established there is no armed resistance inside the West Bank

and Gaza. It is only like non-violent resistance, maximum

throwing stones to express our anger, our rights. So in this

environment I was, and then I become like, turn to the let's

say, [the] communist or leftist strategy.

Then I finish my school and there is no university here -

for the capacity of most of the Palestinian students - so I

study outside, I went to Turkey - to Jordan first - and to

Turkey.[inaudible] In Turkey I [was] involved in politics

through the Palestinian Students Union, and with the political

parties. So this gives me the power when I come here and -

because of my activity outside - which is just telling people

what's going on here, and joining some protests here in

the vacations. So I was arrested here while I'm coming to visit,

at the border between Jordan and the West Bank, which was under

the control of the Israelis, and charged for five years for

memberships [of political organisations]. When I was

released in 1989, it was the First Intifada, which is the big

uprising for Palestinian people. It is normal to participate in

it. Of course, because [it was] forbidden to travel to continue

my study forever, at that time. So no hope for going back to

Turkey, or even [to study] in the West Bank. I involved in to

change my… work. Because being in prison for like five years,

we are very sociable people, and involved in politics. And when I

married, she [my wife] asked me what I [would say] to [our]

family [about what my occupation would be]. I told her, tell

[them] he is a journalist. And then I go to the media, take

some workshops, then study [media] in Bir Zeit

[university], and I was involved in media work. This is what

happened. But we continue [through] the uprising - the

First Intifada - the Second Intifada, and the '90s. All the

time [I did] media work as a journalist, and as an activist

seeing… a lot of violations - I continue my activity besides my

work, and besides [I was] a family keeper, or whatever. So

it is normal - and this is the story of every Palestinian of

that generation. And it is the story of every Palestinian in

this generation also, living under this environment of road

blocks, killing, confiscating, demolishing homes - it involved

every Palestinian. It involved even international human rights

volunteers here. What about Palestinians? And yeah, we feel

that as a Palestinian. I feel, and all the Palestinians feel

that we will not develop our country, we will not get good

economic situation without being free, or hav[ing an] independent

state- of this longest occupation, which [is] like

doing everything in order to take us out, [already] half of

our nation, or more than half - as Palestinians are 14 million

now. Maybe six, millions living in Gaza, and the West Bank, East

Jerusalem and in what we call Israel, or '48.

So you know, we're here in December 2022. And there's

been some clear elections of very right wing politicians in

'48, in Israel. How do you think this is going to affect things

in Palestine? And what's your perspective the necessary

direction for liberation of Palestine in the future?

It is not the new that the right wing - or fascist

- parties are winning the elections. Because always the

Israeli governments are from right wing in general, and

continue the project of Zionist in general. The bad issue is

from the Palestinian side. Today, for example, it is 2023 -

more than 30 years old since signing [the] Oslo Agreement,

which is called the 'peace process'. And most of what

happens in this 30 years [is that] that more land is

confiscated, more expanding of settlements, more violence

created, either from Israeli occupation forces or the

colonialist settlers – [now there are] maybe around 800,000

Israeli settlers living in the West Bank - they are taking the

land. And on the other side, the weakness in Palestinian

political parties, PLO [Palestine Liberation

Organisation] the division between Gaza and the West Bank.

This [has] weakened the Palestinian political

leadership, including [the] establish[ment of the] PA

[Palestinian Authority] - it goes on the condition of funds,

and also affected by very big corruption issues, that make the

Palestinian cause very weak. But on the other hand, the new

generation - or the population - which suffered from the

occupation, I think they are about to explode against all

Israel's occupation first, and also the

PA. Without a big mass of resistance, and the only type of

resistance, strategy of resistance [that] can gain is

participating as much as population.

I have hope, because of the public opinion in the West,

like, especially to international activists,

international volunteers, international human rights

organisations who see in their eyes - that they can a little

bit make some changes [to] the public opinion because we need

[it]. The Arab Palestinian media, and Arab media is very

weak compared to the Zionist media... so that those activists

or volunteers coming here and move it or send our message to

the European media, making activity in solidarity with

Palestinians are chang[ing] the power of the Israeli media, and

at least in the communities in Europe - not for the government,

because the government are dedicated to supporting Israel

as a base for controlling the area in the Arab countries. So I

think nowadays, it is up to the Palestinian 14 million nation to

do something. Even the ones who are outside - specially in

Syria, Lebanon and the refugee camps are facing very bad

situation, which gives them no power, just for fighting for

living, not supporting. So it depends on how much the people

are steadfasting here, how much [we] refuse immigration. Because

what happened in '48, shouldn't happen again. And it will not

happen again.

So finally, one of the aims of this podcast is to

encourage people to come. What would you say to people that are

maybe thinking about it but are not sure?

I told you that the Palestinian cause now depending

on the pressure putting on Israel by the United Nations in

general, and the European countries who support Israel.

And [they] will not change their policies if they haven't

pressure from their community. So I think that also

Palestinians didn't want to feel left alone. So when they see

more internationals coming in solidarity with them, it gives

them hope, because they know that [they] are very supportive

to them. So I encourage as much volunteers, and people - normal

people - to come here and see [the situation] on the ground,

in order to face the Zionist media. This is first, and also

to support the Palestinians and give this power for the

Palestinian to continue their struggle for their rights,