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Tech, Tactics, and Transformation: Inside the DefenseTech Revolution | The Pair Program Ep36
Episode 3612th December 2023 • The Pair Program • hatch I.T.
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Tech, Tactics, and Transformation: Inside the DefenseTech Revolution | The Pair Program Ep36

Join us in this episode as we dive deep into the world of defense technology innovation with two exceptional leaders, Ian Kalin, CEO of TurbineOne, and Paul Benfield, Director of Pallas Advisors.

In this insightful conversation, our guests share the story of how they forged a dynamic partnership aimed at revolutionizing the defense and intelligence industry. Discover how they navigate the intricate landscape of government contracts and serving the U.S. military, offering firsthand accounts of the industry's inner workings.

About the guests:

Paul Benfield is the Director of Pallas Advisors, partnering with innovative companies developing break-through technology with compelling national security applications. His background includes 20 years of service in the U.S. Army in various Airborne, Special Operations, and Infantry units. His final assignment was as Special Assistant to the Deputy Secretary of Defense, focusing on Department of Defense innovation and modernization priorities. Paul is also an Adjunct Senior Fellow for the Defense Program at the Center for a New American Security (CNAS).

Ian Kalin is passionate about modernizing government technology. Career highlights include the Navy as a Counter Terrorism Officer and Nuclear Engineer, clean-tech entrepreneur, the first Chief Data Officer for the U.S. Department of Commerce, and the CTO of Medicare.com. His public service has been recognized through awards from the U.S. Secretary of Energy for responses to natural disasters and from Harvard for accomplishments at the intersection of technology and public policy.

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Transcripts

Tim Winkler:

Welcome to The Pair Program from hatchpad.

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The podcast that gives you a front

row seat to candid conversations with

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tech leaders from the startup world.

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I'm your host, Tim Winkler,

the creator of hatchpad.

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Mike Gruen: And I'm your other host, Mike

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Tim Winkler: Gruen.

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Join us each episode as we bring

together two guests to dissect topics

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at the intersection of technology,

startups, and career growth.

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So everyone, welcome

back to The Pair Program.

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It's Tim Winkler here.

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I've got Mike Gruen with me as always.

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Um All right, Mike.

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So I, I saw this, um, scenario based

question pop up scrolling aimlessly

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on Instagram the other day, and I

thought it was, uh, that was creative.

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So I want to run it by you.

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So here, here we go.

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If you were randomly dropped into a

pro sporting event with your entire

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country's hopes and dreams on the line,

Which would you most want to attempt?

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A, a free throw, b, a penalty kick, C, a

25 yard field goal, or d, a six foot putt,

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Mike Gruen: uh, penalty kick all day.

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I played soccer.

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Uh, that's the only one.

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Penalty.

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Kick the only one.

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I feel like I have any, any

real shot at, uh, basketball.

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No way.

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Yeah.

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Unless, unless we're

talking about manager golf.

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No way.

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Uh, yeah.

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Tim Winkler: Yeah.

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I feel like it's probably

pretty good odds, right?

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I feel like, you know, you

don't have to get too crazy.

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Just, just get it in the,

in that box area, right?

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The goal.

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You know

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Mike Gruen: what?

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Just get it on that.

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Don't, you know, don't like

kick it way up over the goal.

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I think would be the,

don't sky it to the moon,

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Tim Winkler: kick it as slow as possible.

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Uh, not slow, but you know,

yeah, it was a good one.

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I was, I was running it by a few folks,

but I, I, I think I'm, I, I, I think

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that I'm leaning into the free throw

just because I, I played a lot of

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basketball growing up, but damn it.

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That's embarrassing.

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If you miss a free throw like that

and like, uh, all eyes on you, but

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yeah, either of those, like all of

those options are, are kinda tricky.

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Ian, what are you, what's

your answer on that?

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I'm kind of curious.

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Ian Kalin: I'm a data geek.

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So part of me wants to like look

at the history of all of those

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shots and see which one has the

highest probability of success.

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In absence of having the data,

I would go with soccer as well.

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I'm Latino.

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I just felt like more of my, my

roots would somehow magically

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work their way into my body and

ensure that I actually delivered.

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Tim Winkler: Um,

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Ian Kalin: but, uh, I'm thinking

about free throws, uh, cause I just,

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uh, saw Shaquille O'Neal DJ a concert

this weekend in San Francisco.

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And I think his DJ skills are about

up there with his basketball free

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Tim Winkler: throw.

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Ian Kalin: Well, you know, he's, he's,

he's, he's up with the greats, right?

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There was a lot of competition,

some really great DJs.

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So it's kind of like, you know,

you can't, if you're an amateur

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among the professionals, you

gotta know what you're doing.

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Tim Winkler: Sure.

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All right.

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Let's give our listeners a

preview of today's episode.

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So today we are building on a mini

series of topics focused on the

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intersection of tech startups and

doing business with the government.

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So I'm sure that there are many folks

out there that have asked themselves, you

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know, the common question of, you know,

why are there not more successful startups

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innovating in the government space?

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It shouldn't be that complicated, right?

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Well, it's extremely complicated actually.

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And that's why we've got two

guests joining us who've been there

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and done that and have survived

to tell, to tell the story.

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So we've got Ian Callan, the CEO

and co founder of Turbine One.

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Uh, Ian has a background in the

U S Navy, has spent 20 years

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modernizing government technology.

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Um, and we have Paul Binfield,

the director of emerging

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technologies at Palace Advisors.

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Um, Paul previously served as.

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A special assistant to the deputy

secretary, deputy secretary of defense,

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focusing on Department of Defense

innovation and modernization priorities.

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And he's also served more

than 20 years in the U.

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S.

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Army in various airborne, special

ops, infantry units, uh, including

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services, a joints chief of staff

fellow and a company commander, platoon

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leader, and a non commissioned officer.

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It's a mouthful.

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But, uh, a notable background.

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So Ian, Paul, glad you guys could join us.

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Yeah, my pleasure.

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All right.

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Um, before we jump into the heavy

stuff, let's, uh, let's kick

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things off with our favorite bit.

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Pair me up.

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Um, this is a fun little segment

where we jump around the room.

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We kickball a couple of

our favorite pairings.

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Um, Mike, what is your pairing for today?

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Mike Gruen: So mine's kind of boring,

uh, but we'll go with it anyway.

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Card games and friends.

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Uh, this past weekend, we had some good

friends over my friends from college.

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Um, in fact, he was the one who

taught me spades, a college roommate.

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Um, and so him and his wife and

my wife, uh, we all played, um,

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spades and then other card games.

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And it was just sort of nice to, it was

just nice, um, sort of call back to, to

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that, those days of college and just, you

know, sitting around no responsibilities

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and shooting the breeze, so.

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That's, that's my parent.

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Tim Winkler: That's a good one.

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It's crazy how much time you can spend

with just a deck of cards, right?

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I mean, there's so many, so

many things you can play.

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Like, um, my wife and I, we did something

similar, like went camping and there's

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nothing to do, no, no technology.

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And, you know, we stayed busy for hours

with just a deck of cards, playing spades.

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Yep.

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Mike Gruen: We, um, our, my wife

and I, our go to is cribbage.

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Uh, that's our, like, I have

a tiny little cribbage board.

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Um, that I, I can bring

with us on, on trips.

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Um, so I was back in a deck

of cards just, just in case.

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So there's cribbage and then also, um,

my wife and I also met playing poker.

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So, uh, we'll play a game

called Russian poker, which is

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Ian Kalin: just dangerous on that story.

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Whatever that story is.

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I'm sure we can make it a lot longer and

more about your current situation, but.

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So I mean, so the family life, I got

kids and one of the most bizarre,

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wonderful, surprising joys of fatherhood

is teaching your kids different

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card games to see them crush you.

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Like when that happens, it's like

actually a really proud moment, like, wow.

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My seven year old just destroyed

me and you're angry and

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happy all at the same time.

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It's, it's wonderful.

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It's a great thing.

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Mike Gruen: Yep.

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I've, uh, so my grandparents

taught me poker and blackjack

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when I was really little.

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Um, and so I've continued that

tradition of teaching my kids

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when they were very little.

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And so now, um, now they're in middle

school and high school and they.

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They at least know how to play.

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Um, so there's

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Tim Winkler: that.

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Yeah.

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Teach, teach your kids how

to gamble in early age.

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I think is, is important

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Mike Gruen: kids and gambling, I guess,

would be another parent for another day.

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All

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Paul Benfield: right.

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Um,

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Tim Winkler: all right.

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I'll, I'll, I'll jump in.

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So for, for my parent, I'm going to

drift back into a nice, comfortable.

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zone with a food pairing.

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So nothing, nothing too

crazy with this one.

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I'm going with fresh

tomatoes and mozzarella.

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So my wife and I, we've been hitting up

local farmer's market here, uh, every

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weekend, and we found this produce vendor.

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Who's just got.

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The freshest tomatoes.

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So we've been picking up fresh tomatoes,

fresh mozzarella and making Caprese

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salads and they're freaking delicious.

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Do a little, little balsamic vinegar

on it, a little fresh basil, some sea

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salt, and, um, yeah, we're working with

a, uh, an all out meal at that point.

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So that's my pairing, fresh

tomatoes and fresh mozzarella.

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Really going

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Mike Gruen: with some controversy there.

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Yeah,

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Tim Winkler: no one's debating that.

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That's a, that's a given.

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Um, cool.

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Let's, let's, uh, let's

pass it over to our guests.

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So Paul, uh, how about a quick intro

from you and, uh, and your parent?

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Paul Benfield: Thanks.

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Um, so Paul Benfield, and as you

mentioned, uh, spent 20 years in the army.

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Um, the, uh, the last job I had was

working for the deputy secretary of

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defense, who his role is kind of a

combination of the CFO the department,

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so a lot of internal operations.

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But also running the budget

in the budget process.

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So really valuable and rewarding

experience learning about how that

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process works, but also incredibly

frustrating seeing the lack of ability

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to actually incorporate what was my

portfolio was emerging technology.

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And so this is a 2014 15 timeframe

and we're looking at things like low

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Earth orbit satellites and autonomous

robots and AI and machine learning.

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Um, and, and all of this was to

say, Hey, this technology is coming.

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Is the department prepared to

actually adopt it and use it?

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Uh, and so when I left government,

uh, started working for the consulting

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firm that I'm at now palace, and we

were trying to, uh, fast track, getting

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technology into the hands of men and

women downrange as fast as possible.

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And we're all pretty frustrated

with what we saw in the department

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and thought maybe there's a chance

to influence that from the outside.

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And then after doing that, uh, about a

year and a half, we added on a venture

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capital arm where we do a special

purpose vehicle, uh, investments for,

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uh, you know, early stage companies.

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Nice.

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Uh, so, uh, thanks for having me.

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Um, uh, great topic.

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And, uh, my pairing is, uh,

is baseball and football.

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Uh, this is my favorite time of the year

when they're both on simultaneously.

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Uh, my, my team for baseball is a New

York Yankees, not having a great year,

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but, uh, my fantasy draft is this weekend

and I'll have something to distract me

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from my terrible showing from my home

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Tim Winkler: team.

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That's right.

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Who's, uh, who's your football team then?

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Um,

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Paul Benfield: I have, okay, so

it's a long story, but, uh, I was,

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uh, I'm born and raised in Florida.

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Uh, and so the Tampa Bay

Buccaneers were my team.

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Uh, until John Gruden ruined them, and

I've never rooted for Tampa Bay since.

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Uh, I'm a Tony Dungy fan,

not a John Gruden fan.

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So, so now my team is whichever one has a

player on my fantasy team on television.

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That's, that's my team.

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Nice.

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There you

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Tim Winkler: go.

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Solid.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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We, we had a, uh, we had a Gruden

over here, uh, in DC as well.

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And um, yeah, it wasn't the.

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It wasn't the highlight of our, of our

seasons either , but, uh, I thought

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you were gonna say, I was a, I was a

Buccaneers fan until Tom Brady left, and

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now I'm, now I've gotta find a new team.

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Oh, no, no.

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This, this predates, yeah, predates

the, the Golden, the golden boy.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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The golden

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Paul Benfield: era of, uh, Brady

and the Gronk in Tampa Bay.

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Yeah.

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I've seen like 18 months.

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Tim Winkler: Yeah, sure.

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Been entertaining to

watch though, we'll say.

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Oh, yeah.

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Um, alright.

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Good stuff.

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Well, let's pass it over to, uh, Ian.

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Uh, Ian, thanks for joining us.

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How about a quick, uh,

intro and, and your pairing?

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Sure.

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Uh,

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Ian Kalin: so thanks

for inviting me as well.

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Uh, excited to, to get together

and chat about this topic that I

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don't think that's enough attention.

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So I'm, I'm starting off

with a, a big old gratitude.

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Thank you.

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Uh, on the bio side.

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Yeah, I'm, I'm, uh, addicted to

improving American government services.

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I think our nation deserves better,

uh, citizens deserve better, and

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it's worth fighting for, um, on the

pairing side, uh, as you can probably

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tell from my, uh, background here,

I'm kind of a music nut and I've

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already mentioned the music festival

that, uh, I've spent this weekend on.

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And so I'm going to go another one there.

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And my pairing is arpeggios

and a steady backbeat.

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It was like this strange, uh, theme,

whether it was like country music or

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EDM or hip hop or, you know, whatever,

like new, like alt rock, it was just

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like all these people, all these

performers have this like little like,

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do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do kind

of like on the guitar or the piano.

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And then just do that

for a couple of bars.

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And then it came with a boom, boom, boom.

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That like, and it just made

everyone, regardless of music

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type just lose their minds.

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And every time that happens, you can

almost kind of like formulaically

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look for that in the music, like,

wow, that's a great pairing.

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Like, I don't know what that is, right?

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Like old, young, rich, poor, something

there makes humans want to move

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and it just works so damn well.

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So I'm going to play with

that a little bit later.

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So I think I found a trend that

I'm going to seek to exploit.

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Tim Winkler: Yeah, for, for those not

watching on the, the YouTube channel,

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Ian has, what is that like six or

seven guitars in the background?

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Various

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Ian Kalin: types, you

know, they're all the same.

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No, no, no.

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They're very different.

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They're incredibly, they have

nothing to do with each other.

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Um, but yeah, this is just a few,

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Tim Winkler: yeah, and for those

that, that stay on till the very

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end, Ian, we'll put on a little,

a little show on each one of them.

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I think,

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Mike Gruen: I think we all

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Ian Kalin: deserve better than

that if you're listening to this

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podcast, you've got too much other

important stuff to be working on.

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The

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Mike Gruen: five second scramble,

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Tim Winkler: Captain.

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Um, Cool.

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All right.

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Well, we'll, um, we'll appreciate

those intros, uh, and, and parents

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is great, great insights all around.

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So let's, let's keep moving ahead here.

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Uh, so like I mentioned, we're going to,

we're going to talk a little bit about

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how, you know, these tech startups can

best navigate the government terrain.

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Um, we're going to talk some, some

partnerships, uh, just kind of given

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some of this relationship as well

between palace and turbine one, uh,

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some of the regulations, uh, making,

you know, sense of some of this

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tech lingo to, to government folks.

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Um, and, uh, and, uh, let's,

let's just kind of jump in.

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So I'd like to begin with a clarifying

for our, our listeners, you know, the,

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the relationship between turbine one and,

and, and palace advisors, and can use this

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as a good jump off to build a little bit

more context on the, the kinds of problems

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that each of your companies are solving.

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And so, Why don't we start with you

in, uh, and giving us a little bit

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more clarity on, on turbine one and

the, and then, uh, you know, the,

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the problems that you're solving

and the role that, you know, palace

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advisors kind of serves with you guys.

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Yeah, so the,

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Ian Kalin: there's a lot of questions

that are unpacked, but the most

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important problem to start with is

that there is no natural pairing

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between defense and new tech.

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It's an unnatural pairing.

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I don't want that to be

true, but it is true.

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And so, in order to introduce new

tech into an organization that

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desperately needs it, and then

everyone knows desperately needs it.

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There needs to be a guy, a translator.

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A combination of strategy and tactics,

someone who can help you through this

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terrible system and ultimately find a

way to communicate so that fundamentally

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you can compel a degree of change that

change is not natural in the system.

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And so it has to be either

invoked or inspired or shut.

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And so to do that is hard when you,

if you're trying to convince someone

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of something, but you don't speak

the language, it's really hard to do.

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So, and so what I'd recommend to every

other tech founder, regardless of type,

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if you have an airplane, if you have

a shield, if you have a tech software

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mobile application, I'd actually

recommend you engage palace advisors.

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They have been very good to us in helping

us understand where to go, where to focus

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our efforts and to fundamentally bring

a product forward that can save a life.

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But even that product alone is

not going to get it to the hands

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of the warfighters that need it.

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It needs someone to ultimately

translate it's value.

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And to that end, I've been

incredibly grateful for what

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Palace has done in partnership with

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Tim Winkler: Turbine One.

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That's awesome.

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Yeah, I want to expand more on, on

what you guys are doing at Palace,

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Paul, but Ian, real quick on the

Turbine One, um, What, yeah, tell

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me a little bit more about the, the

work that you all are doing was on

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the stuff that you guys are building.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Ian Kalin: Uh, so I served in the Navy for

a little bit, as you mentioned, and I wish

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I had our product back when I served, uh,

fundamentally, we're a software company,

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uh, and we're an Intel analytics platform.

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We help people find what

they're looking for.

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Uh, the bad guys, the bad shifts, uh,

weapons, we are our toolkit and we

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give that toolkit to people so that

they can find what they're looking for.

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Most of our customers today are

in the intelligence surveillance

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and reconnaissance world.

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They're fundamentally just

trying to inform decision makers.

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And what's fun about our software product,

even as a young business, we have seen

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our tool transform people's lives.

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They are not doing their job the same

way after being given our tool set.

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Uh, and so that's what gives us great

motivation at our small, but mighty.

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Uh, venture back seed stage, you know,

tech startup, the, the, the drive and

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ambition to keep charging forward and to

keep building something that, uh, deserves

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to be far further forward for the U.

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S.

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military and the intelligence community.

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Tim Winkler: Cool.

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Do you, are, are you guys, um, do

you have any commercial applications?

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Ian Kalin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I mean, the funny thing about trying

to find something that's actually

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really common, uh, you know, Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

367

:

Yeah.

368

:

Yeah.

369

:

And our toolkit is so easy to

use that we've seen our end users

370

:

taking in places we never expected.

371

:

My kids are very good at using our

software product, whether you're

372

:

trying to figure out, you know, which

dog stole which shoe real story, by

373

:

the way, happened with 1 of my kids.

374

:

Um, and it's a part of our differentiation

within the AI machine learning category.

375

:

We have given people a tool kit

to build new detectors without the

376

:

cloud, any hardware, any object.

377

:

And so if it's.

378

:

Simple, easy to use, and

you can take it anywhere.

379

:

We've seen people take our tech to

places you never expected, which is

380

:

part of the fun of a startup life.

381

:

You know, when you give someone a pair

of scissors, they can, you know, do all

382

:

sorts of funny things with it, which are

great, but also potentially dangerous.

383

:

And so that that's part of the

responsibility that we're also

384

:

constantly obsessing over.

385

:

In this AI and defense world, but

yeah, about a 3rd of our business is

386

:

on the commercial industrial side.

387

:

Again, trying to find if something

going to explode, if something going

388

:

to leak, is something going to go boom

or break that, uh, that responsibility

389

:

to keep people safe at work is the core

of what our software technology does.

390

:

Tim Winkler: Yeah.

391

:

Simple, easy to use and

government customers.

392

:

Sounds like a great pairing to me.

393

:

It's like, uh, just make sure that's

394

:

Ian Kalin: the funny thing about it.

395

:

It's like, wait, this can't be real.

396

:

Wait, any hardware?

397

:

Come on.

398

:

What do you mean?

399

:

It's not, they don't believe

that it's the, the sector has

400

:

been so poisoned by bad actors,

I saw this when I was in uniform.

401

:

I saw when I was in, uh, the,

uh, presidential administration

402

:

as a acquisition official,

which we can get into.

403

:

And now I'm seeing it as a startup.

404

:

There are so many bad actors slinging

snake oil and some, many of them don't

405

:

even think they're doing something bad.

406

:

They really think they're trying to

help, but it is, it is disgusting

407

:

the level of abuse I've seen.

408

:

And so when you show up with

a real product that actually

409

:

works, that's not possible.

410

:

That can't be true beyond

a PowerPoint slide.

411

:

I've never seen that before.

412

:

And so that a lot of

it's just building trust.

413

:

Between the communities that are

not used to talking to each other

414

:

anymore because it's been so much

415

:

Tim Winkler: poison in

the well for so long.

416

:

Yeah, we'll pull on that through a

little bit, a little bit more to on

417

:

on how to build that trust and some

of those tactics to get those products

418

:

in the right hands of the right folks.

419

:

But, um, let's kick over to Paul.

420

:

Uh, so Paul, you know,

uh, you know, Ian kind of.

421

:

Briefly touched on it, but talk to us a

little bit, a little bit more about how

422

:

you all kind of serve as this shepherd,

you know, for, for these, these, these

423

:

founders, these, these startups that

are trying to navigate these, uh,

424

:

uncharted waters, like, uh, uh, what

is it that you all are doing here?

425

:

Tell me, tell me some, a

couple of examples of how this,

426

:

uh, house palace is serving.

427

:

Paul Benfield: Yeah, so I'll start

with the best case scenario, right?

428

:

Um, well, the team take a step back.

429

:

Um, I have this thing where I said

there is no single person in the

430

:

Department of Defense that can write a

check that individual does not exist.

431

:

Like, in the commercial sector, you

go find the CFO or the CEO and they'll

432

:

buy something right there, right?

433

:

Does not exist in the

Department of Defense.

434

:

So while there's no one that can say yes.

435

:

It seems like every single

person can say no, right?

436

:

And so how do you get through all that?

437

:

So best case scenario?

438

:

Here's what you can do.

439

:

Uh, you find your end user, your customer,

and normally that's, uh, you know,

440

:

a young person on the ground or in a

staff job in an operation center using

441

:

the software holding the metal, right?

442

:

That's the that's the validator.

443

:

That's who we're all trying to target.

444

:

Uh, Get improved tech to

get anything to that person.

445

:

You need a contract vehicle and that's

a pipeline through which money flows.

446

:

Um, and it could be an OTA.

447

:

It could be and I'm not going to

explain these acronyms and throw out

448

:

some alphabet soup could be a sever.

449

:

It could be through D.

450

:

I.

451

:

U.

452

:

could be an OTA.

453

:

It could be all of these things.

454

:

Um, unlikely is it going to be a program

of record that is a big, you know, big

455

:

ticket dollar item that, you know, because

you're a startup now, assuming you find

456

:

an end user that likes your stuff and

a contract vehicle, then you have to

457

:

figure out what program office owns that

contract vehicle to that end user and that

458

:

program offices likely bought something

slightly less effective, maybe slightly

459

:

more expensive for many, many years.

460

:

And their incentive is just to

hit renew and, you know, do that

461

:

again over and over and over again.

462

:

So what you really need is a champion,

some senior leader in the military

463

:

that can drive down requirements

and say to that program office,

464

:

no, no, no, I want something new.

465

:

I want new requirements.

466

:

Uh, so imagine, uh, I

know I laid that out.

467

:

It sounds complicated.

468

:

We haven't got the complicated part.

469

:

Um, so end user contract vehicle,

a program office and a champion.

470

:

Imagine you're somebody from

Austin or Boston or, you know,

471

:

Silicon Valley got this great tech.

472

:

Don't know anything about D.

473

:

O.

474

:

D.

475

:

Not only do you not know how to navigate

that, you don't even know how to identify

476

:

where to, where to start with that.

477

:

And so it's a lot of stakeholder

mapping and, and being able to identify

478

:

where the correct, uh, the current

pain points are for certain people.

479

:

And then get that tech in

front of those people, uh.

480

:

You know, as quick and sometimes

as often as it takes repeated hits

481

:

Tim Winkler: as you can.

482

:

And so palace is basically taking

on a lot of all that heavy lifting

483

:

of doing the steps on on your

behalf on the founder's behalf

484

:

Paul Benfield: We try to now now

palace also works with small startups

485

:

and fortune 10 global companies.

486

:

So it's not all the same.

487

:

And there is a spectrum

of support by the way.

488

:

Um, you know, if you're a startup,

every single dollar is the most single

489

:

important single dollar you've got.

490

:

Right.

491

:

And so not everyone can afford.

492

:

a team of retired generals to go beat the

bushes for them to find them business.

493

:

Um, maybe you have, you know, so

palace is one style of consulting

494

:

and just us, we have a spectrum.

495

:

Maybe you have just one or two retired

military folks or folks that come out

496

:

of government as a, you know, advisory

board members that help out your company.

497

:

Um, maybe you just want a project

of, I just need a kind of a, uh,

498

:

Um, a mapping of the ecosystem.

499

:

Tell me what the front doors look like.

500

:

And then I'll go from there.

501

:

And sometimes it gets into

organizational management as the

502

:

companies grow and start building

sales teams and field service reps and

503

:

customer engagement and all of that.

504

:

Um, we can be sort of, uh, uh, chief of

staff kind of by default and help organize

505

:

and synchronize that kind of stuff.

506

:

Tim Winkler: So I, I'm, uh, I want to

kind of like play this into, into your

507

:

court and in terms of like, you know,

specifically, you know, with turbine

508

:

one, like the areas that really can't.

509

:

You know, came in your, in your viewpoint

of like extremely beneficial because it

510

:

sounds to me like you've already had some

experience, some experience here, right?

511

:

You know, some former military

experience, um, have served, you

512

:

know, directly in the government

for some different agencies as well.

513

:

Um, you know, so what was it that you were

like, you know, seen as one of the more

514

:

advantageous pieces of this partnership,

uh, specifically for like Turbine 1?

515

:

A partnership with Palace?

516

:

Yeah, uh, I'll double

down on, uh, the language

517

:

Ian Kalin: of communication, but also in

the earliest days trying to figure out

518

:

the most important problems to solve,

you know, in the commercial industry.

519

:

Uh, if I was a new shopping

app, I can build it.

520

:

I can go to a shopping mall.

521

:

I can guess, you know, random people

to test it out and give me feedback.

522

:

I can run back to the engineers and

have a new version of the next day.

523

:

To test something in the field with the U.

524

:

S.

525

:

military is virtually impossible,

and many people believe it's illegal.

526

:

It's not, but they think it is.

527

:

And so, how the hell do you get something

to a person who really needs it, who

528

:

thinks they're not allowed to talk

to you, let alone special operations.

529

:

Just, whatever.

530

:

Stereotypical big army, just

going to a hospital or something.

531

:

Like, hey, this could save a life.

532

:

Want to check it out?

533

:

They'd be like, no, no, no,

I'm not allowed to touch it.

534

:

I'm not, what are you doing with my data?

535

:

Like, you can't, you can't just do that.

536

:

Um, so then how can you understand that

the actual customer needs and user needs.

537

:

Iterate and get paid for the, there's

a very complex system that prevents

538

:

what is normal in tech life for

industry or commercial direct consumer

539

:

models to apply it to the government.

540

:

It can still be done.

541

:

But in the earliest days, figuring

out, well, can you just help me figure

542

:

out, like, if you were the end user, it

wasn't that long ago that you were blank.

543

:

Or maybe it's your advisory network.

544

:

Hey, you used to be in charge

of this giant operation.

545

:

What were some of your

biggest pain points, sir?

546

:

You know, like, and then, you know,

the retired three star general may not

547

:

really know, honestly, what's going

on, and the good ones will tell you.

548

:

I was, it's been a long time since I've

held a rifle, but I'll tell you what

549

:

my soldiers were demanding, and what

I'm pretty sure they still don't have.

550

:

That's magic.

551

:

Because that at least the signal that

any entrepreneur can take to say, all

552

:

right, you know, I'm only 80 percent

confident, but we should work in this

553

:

prototype, get it out to an exercise and

to a demo for conferencing and get a booth

554

:

and like, hey, just talk to real life

folks who are in uniform in the right

555

:

environments that can give you feedback.

556

:

So, it cuts out the death spiral

of the chicken and the egg.

557

:

Like, it gives you a starting

point to have a trusted advisor.

558

:

And that was, I would say, the early

days of what was most valuable in the

559

:

partnership between Turbine One and

560

:

Tim Winkler: Palace.

561

:

Yeah, it's fascinating.

562

:

I, I've, um, grew up in the D.

563

:

C.

564

:

area, and, you know, we've, we've

obviously, you know, talked to a lot of,

565

:

you know, big government contractors,

um, you know, there's a lot of these

566

:

8A, like, services, uh, contracting

companies that have popped up, which it's

567

:

great to, to give these, these smaller,

you know, um, Smaller businesses and

568

:

opportunity to come in and help from a

services perspective, but from a product

569

:

perspective, it's a whole nother ballgame

and to see that divide and to see.

570

:

Like, yeah, I like the way you

describe it of like trying to

571

:

speak a different language, you

know, it is extremely complicated.

572

:

Um, but I will say that I've, I

have seen, uh, just in the last, you

573

:

know, in the last year, you know,

a big, uh, a big pivot, a big push

574

:

to, to really be a little bit more

open to, you know, accepting of.

575

:

Uh, this commercial technology and

really like understanding and almost

576

:

like looking in the mirror of like,

you're right, you know, we need to

577

:

modernize, like we need to move quicker.

578

:

We need to figure out how to solve these

problems for war fighters and so forth.

579

:

And other, other examples,

like in space travel and such.

580

:

Um, so to, to, to see a firm

like palace, I really see a.

581

:

Huge use case, um, uh, you know, cause

even being here in the DC area, like,

582

:

you know, you pull somebody from Austin

has got no idea what it's, you know,

583

:

what this environment can be like,

it's, it's extremely complicated.

584

:

So certainly, uh, a valuable partnership,

um, I can see you all serving and so

585

:

I, you all also have a venture arm.

586

:

Do you all, uh, invest in any

specific, um, you know, verticals,

587

:

uh, dual use tech, uh, anything

that, that comes top of mind.

588

:

Yeah, it's, uh,

589

:

Paul Benfield: other than

dual use, it's tech agnostic.

590

:

Um, uh, we prefer, and it's not always

the case, but we prefer to have a

591

:

consulting relationship with them.

592

:

Um, because of the SPV model, uh,

you know, we can't spread risk

593

:

across all of the investments.

594

:

So, you know, that whole, we're

willing to take eight strikeouts

595

:

to get one home run in our fund.

596

:

We, we can't do that because

each deal has different LPs.

597

:

How do you mitigate the risk?

598

:

Well, uh, instead of getting a quarterly,

uh, update, you know, on, on what the

599

:

company is doing, we want to help not

just build the go to market strategy, but

600

:

help execute that go to market strategy.

601

:

Um, but yeah, we've done seed investment.

602

:

We've done a follow on to up to C.

603

:

Um, and so it's.

604

:

Uh, kind of wide ranging, but generally we

will sidecar a small part of the cap table

605

:

for a, you know, a seed series, a company

that we know really, really well that

606

:

we've gotten to know over the year or two.

607

:

Tim Winkler: Okay.

608

:

So it's, it's a lot of, it's based on,

you know, you've, you've maybe worked with

609

:

them in the past or you, you've got some

intel on them just generally speaking, you

610

:

know, from a, an investment perspective

and maybe it's not just from the palace,

611

:

um, point of view, but you know, what is

it that you would say, you know, makes

612

:

a, a tech startup particularly appealing

or promising in the eyes of, of investors

613

:

and, and government agencies is there.

614

:

Okay.

615

:

Things that you pick up on that you're

like, Oh, this will probably resonate

616

:

well, um, you know, in this a little

bit more regulated type of space,

617

:

not getting too specific on like, you

know, you can talk verticals, but I'm

618

:

trying to think if there's like other

things that, that you pick up on.

619

:

No, I mean,

620

:

Paul Benfield: I think, and some

people, by the way, there's kind of

621

:

disagreement out there in the market on

this, but, uh, in my personal opinion.

622

:

Uh, I think you kind of have to have

not have to, but it's helpful to

623

:

have a commercial revenue It does

two things simultaneously One the

624

:

valley of death is a real thing.

625

:

Um, and uh, you know A lot of

people like to throw out the winners

626

:

who made it as startups of, you

know, the Anduril and Palantir and

627

:

Shield and, um, SpaceX even, right?

628

:

Um, they all had billionaires behind

them that could subsidize the, the

629

:

length of time it took them to grow.

630

:

Um, if you're a startup without a

billionaire in your back pocket,

631

:

It might be helpful to have some

commercial revenue, uh, wait for

632

:

that government contract to hit.

633

:

Tim Winkler: Yeah, it

brings up a good point.

634

:

That was on my list.

635

:

Um, we're talking about like sales

cycles, um, you know, in timelines,

636

:

you know, what, what are some, what

are some of these timelines that you've

637

:

seen, um, you know, quick, you know,

quickest, longest, um, averages, uh,

638

:

for, for founders out there that are.

639

:

thinking about making that leap and,

and, um, you know, trying to figure

640

:

out kind of runway they might want to

expect before, uh, something might hit.

641

:

Yeah,

642

:

Paul Benfield: Ian, I don't

know if you want to take this.

643

:

You've lived it.

644

:

Ian Kalin: Yeah, uh, I mean,

I want to talk a lot more

645

:

about the venture side too.

646

:

I mean, I'm a venture backed startup.

647

:

So you're, you're asking the investor,

but I'm also the, the, the founder of you.

648

:

I have some, uh, maybe some different

opinions than what's opposite to open

649

:

the door for opportunity as a direct

answer to your question to certain norms.

650

:

The normals in the Department of Defense

is to get a program of record, which is

651

:

the goal of every single defense tech

vendor, whether you're super big or super

652

:

small, you're chasing these programs.

653

:

On average, the system wants

you to take and 8 to 10 years.

654

:

8 to 10 years in general, if you

follow the rules of requirement is

655

:

written, goes through his congressional

appropriations, gets an RFP.

656

:

Gets on the street and then the first one

that comes in, that's the way the system

657

:

is supposed to work broadly speaking.

658

:

And I should not mention the names of

the companies because I have insider

659

:

information on exactly how long my fellow

founders have taken the absolute top

660

:

tier 4 or 5 years before they get from.

661

:

I have a product and have a program of

record that is funding that product.

662

:

So the appetite and by the

way, every single case, some

663

:

amount of lobbying was required.

664

:

So, the venture capital community

does not want 4 or 5 years to get a

665

:

massive ARR, annual recurring revenue

rate of return on investment for their

666

:

check, but that's the way the best

of the best in class can achieve it.

667

:

So, there is a fundamental gap in the,

the, the venture, most venture models.

668

:

And what the best of the best can

do in defense tech, that is, uh,

669

:

that window is closing in a better

way, I guess, because folks like

670

:

Alice have SPDR, which is creative,

nontraditional form of investment.

671

:

Um, there's a lot of reasons why

the venture community is struggling

672

:

with that, but that that's a.

673

:

You know, I'm not prescribing a

solution, just describing the market.

674

:

That is what everyone needs

to go into with open eyes and

675

:

a clear set of expectations.

676

:

If they are to succeed, one final

point about the program record that

677

:

may demystify it for folks that

are relatively new to the space.

678

:

This was actually given

to me by another investor.

679

:

So, you know, I may, I have some

fun making fun of them, but they do

680

:

teach me a few things along the way.

681

:

You got to have to think

of it as a FDA approval.

682

:

If you have a new drug that can

cure cancer until it's FDA approved,

683

:

good luck selling it in a pharmacy.

684

:

It's not going to happen.

685

:

Right?

686

:

And you have to kind of think in that

model of all defense tech is kind of

687

:

in this experimentation mode of, yeah,

it may save a life, but I don't believe

688

:

it until Congress tells me to do it.

689

:

And once that program of record, the

analogous FDA approval comes in, that's

690

:

when it starts to really go out and scale.

691

:

And so I think if the biotech

industry, healthcare industries,

692

:

which I've worked in, took those,

they figure that out longer.

693

:

There's actually, there's a whole system

and an ecosystem around organizing around

694

:

what may be flawed, but at least there's

a transparent system, semi transparent

695

:

system of how to get to that level.

696

:

The defense industry doesn't

have that level of transparency.

697

:

And so most people don't know how

to go through that set of processes.

698

:

Uh, or think that you only

need a billionaire to be

699

:

a successful tech company.

700

:

You don't, but there, there aren't enough

like numbers in the space yet outside of

701

:

the, whatever, 25 or 50 founders or so of

us that are actually breaking through that

702

:

we need more of these stories to be told

so that others can start to imitate and

703

:

ultimately institutionalize this degree of

704

:

Tim Winkler: transformation.

705

:

Yeah.

706

:

And you know, once you've

gotten to that, that Holy grail,

707

:

like gotten on a contract.

708

:

Um, you know, it's, it's a lot smoother.

709

:

It's a little bit smoother to start

getting into, getting into other

710

:

areas because you've got a little bit

of a past performance and like the

711

:

importance of that, uh, Oh, it's bigger

712

:

Ian Kalin: than that.

713

:

It's like, it's almost illegal to

not give you the money at that point.

714

:

Yeah, I'm exaggerating, but not that much.

715

:

It's like, so you said contract is like

tears and levels is like the megas,

716

:

the billion dollar deals, which are

not weird by the way, which perhaps

717

:

should be, but it is, there's a

whole lot of billion dollar with a B.

718

:

Bravo billion dollar contracts out there

for a lot of interesting to attack that

719

:

they made, by the way, probably sucks.

720

:

I'll give you some examples of

those 2, but then, like, that, you

721

:

know, in the venture world, if you

told an investor, hey, I'm going to

722

:

get a billion dollar contract next

year, they would laugh you out of

723

:

the room and say, that's impossible.

724

:

And yet it's super common.

725

:

So there's this, like, misunderstanding

what I would call the Tam,

726

:

the total addressable market.

727

:

Most investors don't really believe it.

728

:

It's too good to be true.

729

:

Right?

730

:

Okay.

731

:

But you can get what, you know, a

classic stereotypical example of

732

:

something called a small business

innovation research grant or server.

733

:

You can get a million dollar

server as a, you know, 2, 2 folks

734

:

in a garage with a dog and, you

know, maybe have a great idea.

735

:

Those are, those are actually quite nice.

736

:

And that's a good program.

737

:

It's somewhat competitive and there's

abuse in it, but, you know, not terrible.

738

:

Um, so, like, that's fine,

but that's a million dollars.

739

:

If you went to whatever a dating app

company, good luck getting a million

740

:

dollars in revenue in your 1st,

6 months is virtually impossible.

741

:

Right?

742

:

Right.

743

:

So, like, that's where you say

the contract is like, well.

744

:

You can actually get a lot if you have

something that can help somebody in a

745

:

meaningful way and get to 25 million

dollars in annual revenue long before you

746

:

ever even think about a program of record.

747

:

They're just, that's a different,

you need to add three zeros to

748

:

the end of that forecast before

you start getting in that scale.

749

:

Tim Winkler: Yeah.

750

:

You know, have you, have you seen any like

more, like more recent, uh, you know, uh,

751

:

outlets beyond the traditional, like, for

example, I, I, I saw, you know, um, what's

752

:

the army's X Techs prime competition.

753

:

Yeah.

754

:

You know, now, is that something

that, you know, you wouldn't

755

:

have seen five years ago?

756

:

Have you seen more of like this

kind of shift towards like, You

757

:

know, these pitch events, right?

758

:

Like we're trying to be more open

to hearing and getting these,

759

:

the visibility of, of what kind

of technology is being built.

760

:

Um, have you seen more of that,

uh, from, you know, either of you?

761

:

Yeah, I

762

:

Ian Kalin: mean, well, I'm

curious about Paul's perspective.

763

:

Yes, and there's a lot of

good people out there that are

764

:

very, very well intentioned.

765

:

Again, they're trying to help.

766

:

They're trying to work

on the Valley of Death.

767

:

And I'm careful when I say this.

768

:

For most founders, I've

cautioned against it.

769

:

You may waste your time thinking that

they can do anything of great value.

770

:

That's not that the people, right?

771

:

I'm not trying, but the system

is set up to fail and no one's

772

:

telling the truth about it.

773

:

Because that money may be in 1 specific

instance, we were told, hey, great.

774

:

Congratulations on a small little project.

775

:

Now, you have to be subcontracted

to a giant firm who may or

776

:

may not take all of your data.

777

:

Hey, here's a server, but it's

not going to have any transition.

778

:

I never will.

779

:

Hey, here's a creative research and

development agreement with a really

780

:

high power organization, but they

don't have a dime to spend on it.

781

:

Really?

782

:

All they're trying to

do is get free labor.

783

:

All right, so there's a lot of well,

intentioned innovation theater, or

784

:

even just good old fashioned attempts.

785

:

That are increasing in quantity, but the

quality of those, I would not recommend

786

:

if I was ever a defense tech investor, I

would say, you know, maybe give it a try.

787

:

Maybe, but that is not the path to scale.

788

:

Avoid those.

789

:

If you can't.

790

:

Tim Winkler: Interesting.

791

:

Paul Benfield: Yeah, I mean,

they're, they're everywhere.

792

:

Um, they're down to individual units now,

you know, uh, 18, their 1 core for brag,

793

:

just, you know, put on a series of sharp

tanks and they have, uh, a program for.

794

:

Both outside, uh, industry, but

also internal, like they want, you

795

:

know, young soldiers, men and women

to like solve their own problems.

796

:

Hey, for, they'll give them grants to

go, uh, you know, solve these problems.

797

:

Uh, but I agree with Ian.

798

:

Um, they are, they all come in

a lot of different shapes and

799

:

sizes and flavors of quality.

800

:

And so.

801

:

Before you go all in on what sounds like

something that's a really good idea.

802

:

That's another benefit to some of these

outside advisors, you know, have someone

803

:

on your board who has done some of the

defense contracting would say, hey, look.

804

:

Uh, make up an acronym because you

can, like, if you give me 4 letters

805

:

in the alphabet, I can turn it

into a current innovation program.

806

:

App fit.

807

:

Uh, I mean, there's just,

808

:

Ian Kalin: yeah, there's so

809

:

Paul Benfield: many, yeah.

810

:

And you don't, there's no way for you to

know, unless you've got a little bit of

811

:

currency to say, Hey, actually that one

got there, their funding got cut last

812

:

year and they're on the way down or.

813

:

A DIU is going to get about a billion

dollars next year, which is great,

814

:

except, uh, they're going to focus

on high end war fighting stuff now

815

:

and no longer going to be that sort

of front door to Silicon Valley.

816

:

That's all very, very, very, uh,

um, theoretical, hypothetical,

817

:

Ian Kalin: theoretical,

818

:

Tim Winkler: but

819

:

Paul Benfield: I mean, that's the

kind of information you need before

820

:

you, you know, opportunity cost of

chasing one of these things down.

821

:

Tim Winkler: Yeah.

822

:

Yeah.

823

:

That's the

824

:

Mike Gruen: point.

825

:

Yeah.

826

:

So I wanted to pull on something a

little bit, because back when I was

827

:

doing, I've worked at several government

contracting, we had products and

828

:

whatever, um, the, the snake oil, I

think, is all around on all sides.

829

:

There's products that are trying

to be sold in the government

830

:

that can't really perform.

831

:

But there's all of these advisors,

a whole sea of people who tell you

832

:

they can help you Get your product

in to whatever name your, you know,

833

:

Department of Defense, whatever.

834

:

How do you vet those guys?

835

:

Like, how do you pick that partner?

836

:

How do you know that

these guys aren't just

837

:

Paul Benfield: blowing smoke?

838

:

Well, if they can get me, if they make any

guarantees, automatically kick them out.

839

:

It's the US government, right?

840

:

And also, if they give you a ridiculous

timeline, you know, Hey, you know, you can

841

:

start seeing revenue in a couple months.

842

:

Oh, yeah.

843

:

We can get you five servers in two months.

844

:

You know, I mean, this sounds terrible.

845

:

And if I were on the other side, if I

were the CFO of a company, I would want

846

:

quantifiable deliverables from an advisor

that I know I'm getting my money's worth.

847

:

What is my own return on investment?

848

:

Um, we are very cautious about

advisors that give a whole lot

849

:

of quantifiable deliverables.

850

:

Um, because even if it's well intentioned,

it becomes measures of performance

851

:

versus measures of effectiveness.

852

:

You know, oh, I got you to

see 17 people in the army.

853

:

Yeah, well, none of

them can write a check.

854

:

None of them have any authority to

move this program along the line.

855

:

So.

856

:

Um, it's tough.

857

:

I founders are, you know, startups

who are looking for advisors are at a

858

:

distinct disadvantage about finding the

snake old salesman in the in the advisor.

859

:

I think

860

:

Mike Gruen: 1 of the stories I had

was, um, I don't know exactly how we

861

:

managed to get a senator to write to

get an earmark for 1 of our things

862

:

and walking into that customer.

863

:

And the customer having zero interest in

talking to us, they're like, I don't know.

864

:

I just have to spend 2 million

on you guys, but I have better

865

:

things to do with my time.

866

:

So like, clearly this was like, great, we

got this 2 million, but it wasn't going

867

:

to, it wasn't going to lead anywhere.

868

:

And it was a lot like an opportunity

to cost probably, you know, in the

869

:

grand scheme of things wasn't worth it.

870

:

And God knows how much we spent to get

871

:

Tim Winkler: Well, let's, let's kind

of, you know, close up with a couple of,

872

:

a couple of questions specific to, you

know, what, you know, how, how do you

873

:

guys feel about, you know, the future

of, you know, where this is going?

874

:

Like, do you, how do you see the

landscape of tech startups and, and

875

:

the government train kind of evolving

over the next five to 10 years?

876

:

Because I will say that.

877

:

There are, there's, you know, we're

talking a lot about, you know, maybe

878

:

defense and national security, but there

are other areas to like, for example, I

879

:

think specific to, um, you know, we talked

to a lot of like space tech startups and

880

:

there's been a massive shift in, and I

guess the quickness that they're moving,

881

:

because for one, you know, they've been

able to, you know, launch You know,

882

:

rockets and satellites and and and quicker

fashion or reusable rockets, right?

883

:

And so there's been things that

have helped kind of move the needle.

884

:

And, you know, it's given, um, I

think companies that were primarily

885

:

commercial a little bit more of

this into interest and like, okay,

886

:

maybe we we have an angle here.

887

:

Um, where do you all see, yeah, where

do you all see this kind of marriage

888

:

between commercial and, um, and

government over the next five to 10 years?

889

:

It's a very broad question, but I'm just,

you know, is there some, some optimism?

890

:

Is there, you know, status

quo where, where do we sit?

891

:

So I guess,

892

:

Paul Benfield: I mean,

look, yes, there's optimism.

893

:

I mean, it's, it is.

894

:

And it's funny, like Ian said, you know,

everyone acknowledges this is a problem.

895

:

It's just not enough.

896

:

People are doing anything about it.

897

:

Well, I can tell you what I was

in there five or 10 years ago.

898

:

People were acknowledging

it was a problem.

899

:

So it's, it's progress.

900

:

It's insanely slow progress, but, um, I

also want to kind of a non sequitur, but

901

:

a quick caveat of all the we're dumping

on the bureaucracy of department of

902

:

defense, the fault is 99 percent Congress

who dictate word for word, how we buy

903

:

things and whether we can buy it or not.

904

:

And even when we say this is old and

obsolete, we don't want it anymore.

905

:

They just demand that we buy it anyway.

906

:

Um, But there are a lot of authorities

that exist right now to be more

907

:

proactive, to be more innovative.

908

:

Um, there's a lot of efforts, to Ian's

point, maybe we're, the pendulum is

909

:

swinging to too many innovation efforts

to where now it's more confusing,

910

:

but yes, I mean, I'm optimistic.

911

:

Uh, the, the writing is on the wall.

912

:

We're just not going fast enough.

913

:

Ian Kalin: Yeah, I would add, uh,

despite my rage at the bad actors, I've

914

:

never been more optimistic about the

Cambrian explosion of tech startups

915

:

that I'm seeing in the sector right now.

916

:

It's a really fun market to be in and

it does feel a little bit of like,

917

:

you know, the underdog, which is

part of the grid and character that's

918

:

ultimately required to even survive

on a daily basis in this market.

919

:

Um, but there are.

920

:

Milestones from a real macro, almost

economic perspective, and then I'll

921

:

give like a micro example on the

macro side, the asset class of defense

922

:

tech, uh, hasn't had a lot of success

stories beyond Palantir and SpaceX.

923

:

Then if you look at like 70 years

of history, there was whatever,

924

:

roughly 10 companies, Lockheed,

Boeing, General Atomics, whatever,

925

:

that like kind of dominated the

market were famously cautioned by

926

:

Eisenhower and his farewell address.

927

:

That basically, that, that oligopoly

stood where it was for a long time.

928

:

Until Palantir and SpaceX came in

and at least one famous example,

929

:

they sued the government, forcing

the government to buy from them.

930

:

That is a very billionaire move.

931

:

That was like, Rob.

932

:

Oh, sir.

933

:

I can't believe you got away with that.

934

:

Like, as soon as that happened,

other things started changing.

935

:

The law is quite literally changed

as referenced by some of the

936

:

acronyms that Paul was talking about.

937

:

And from these new organizations

and new, what are called contracting

938

:

vehicles in our sector, all these

new companies started showing up.

939

:

And that's like, Whatever 2nd,

3rd generation, I guess, um,

940

:

that have some famous names.

941

:

And so, in the earliest stages of

defense tech and new technologies,

942

:

everyone's basically watching a couple

of bigs, like and role, like shield.

943

:

I know the companies like it.

944

:

These later stage series, the series,

the startups primary example, if they

945

:

have a super easy IPO, then everyone's

going to lose their mind on our category.

946

:

If they get hit in their IPOs,

and it's a destructive down round.

947

:

A little bit of, I'm, I'm, I'm

not an investor, but, uh, similar

948

:

stories to what I loosely describe

as a consumer of the information.

949

:

Some of the struggles

that pounder had an IPO.

950

:

If whatever Hawkeye 360 all these

other companies, if they explode into

951

:

the asset class, well, guess what's

going to happen with a lot of success.

952

:

A lot more money is going

to flood that sector.

953

:

And companies like mine and dozens of

others are going to get interest that

954

:

right now we're fighting to even get

attention for because people fundamentally

955

:

think it's just too soon in most cases

to make transformative investments on

956

:

the buy side of new tech and on the

investment side of investing or spurring

957

:

some of the product level innovation.

958

:

So, uh, that I think that's

the watch in the next 5 years.

959

:

That's what to watch out for.

960

:

On a 10 year scale, we're

losing the arms race with China.

961

:

And when are people going

to be terrified about that?

962

:

Either it's a problem, it's an existential

threat, or it's not really a big deal.

963

:

The national security doctrine,

public policy, public statements

964

:

show very clearly where our nation is

focused and trying to encourage our

965

:

national security, build partnerships,

make safe, be responsible about it

966

:

and fundamentally bring an ethical

conduct into these operations.

967

:

Right now, we're my opinion.

968

:

Our nation is not a leader

in those technologies.

969

:

We are falling behind.

970

:

And again, everyone knows it.

971

:

They're just afraid to talk about it.

972

:

So then from a micro perspective,

what do we do about it?

973

:

You know, a very personal note in the end,

although I'm, you know, cautioning other

974

:

founders, be careful what you get offered.

975

:

Be careful about free labor.

976

:

Be careful of the opportunity cost.

977

:

That does not mean don't take and that

I have not benefited personally and

978

:

with my company from extraordinary

championship from, uh, American service

979

:

members who have taken a gamble, gone

the extra mile, you know, gone home to

980

:

their kids later that night, just so they

can file some paperwork on my company's

981

:

behalf, offer to create a, that may

provide me security clearance someday.

982

:

Like that's the stuff that

actually does make a difference.

983

:

And it can feel very bureaucratic,

but those individual Uh, champion

984

:

points are ultimately how you

push the ball down the field.

985

:

That's what makes it possible

for anything new to fundamentally

986

:

enter into the national service.

987

:

Tim Winkler: Yeah, it's well said.

988

:

And I can kind of speak to like, uh,

from a, a talent perspective, right?

989

:

I think this is, this is where we

spend a lot of our time is, you

990

:

know, we've, we've predominantly

been dabbling in the commercial

991

:

startup space, startups scale up.

992

:

And, um, you know, sadly, you know,

with the, you know, with the, the, the

993

:

financial downturn in the last year

and Silicon Valley bank having, you

994

:

know, their, their whole episode, um,

it's really put a, it's really put

995

:

a, uh, a wrench in the, in funding

across the commercial markets.

996

:

And so a lot of the

technologists now are, are.

997

:

Are are concerned with, you

know, stability and longevity.

998

:

So, they're actually looking for

opportunities that have some.

999

:

A little bit more of a, you know,

financial, you know, security.

:

00:48:53,075 --> 00:48:57,545

And so they are looking to more regulated

industries right now and we're seeing it.

:

00:48:57,575 --> 00:49:01,895

And so it would be just, you know, it's

just a shame to, you know, we want to

:

00:49:01,895 --> 00:49:05,184

make sure like we're not, we're, we're

taking the best of the best, some of the,

:

00:49:05,204 --> 00:49:09,395

the brightest engineers that are in our

country and putting them towards some

:

00:49:09,395 --> 00:49:11,315

of these most challenging projects and.

:

00:49:11,890 --> 00:49:14,990

You know, if we can cut some of this

red tape and I make it so difficult

:

00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,230

to make the connection, like, I think

that's what we're all trying to to get

:

00:49:18,230 --> 00:49:23,250

to, um, so, you know, for companies

that are out there like turbine one,

:

00:49:23,250 --> 00:49:27,680

I mean, it's fantastic opportunity

for, you know, some of these folks to.

:

00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,050

You know, find some, some footing

in a company that's kind of

:

00:49:31,050 --> 00:49:32,870

juggling both sides of the equation.

:

00:49:32,870 --> 00:49:33,690

Like I think these

:

00:49:33,690 --> 00:49:36,350

Ian Kalin: duels, but yeah, to

put it out there, we're hiring

:

00:49:36,470 --> 00:49:38,110

veterans and we're hiring engineers.

:

00:49:38,180 --> 00:49:41,760

So, you know, hopefully there's a way

for us to continue that conversation.

:

00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:43,160

If anyone's listening and is interested.

:

00:49:43,810 --> 00:49:46,439

Tim Winkler: Yeah, there's absolutely

engineers listening to that are probably

:

00:49:46,439 --> 00:49:50,200

interested and, and it, you know, just

to, to cap off that point, it's just

:

00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:54,830

like dual use startups, I think are

becoming really, really appealing.

:

00:49:55,170 --> 00:49:59,530

Because you can bounce back and forth

when one side's lagging a little bit.

:

00:49:59,810 --> 00:50:04,300

But, but, you know, again, I think this

conversation's around, how do you get

:

00:50:04,310 --> 00:50:07,220

that footing in, in that other sector?

:

00:50:07,230 --> 00:50:09,070

How do you get in that government space?

:

00:50:09,070 --> 00:50:12,569

And, you know, we, we'd love to

see more of that happening and

:

00:50:12,570 --> 00:50:15,900

more of that happening, you know,

with less, you know, bureaucracy.

:

00:50:15,950 --> 00:50:19,530

So, um, so that's all, all we've got.

:

00:50:19,590 --> 00:50:25,410

Um, we'll, we'll kind of transition real

quick here into our, our final segment.

:

00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,660

And just kind of wrap things up

with, uh, with the fun segment

:

00:50:29,660 --> 00:50:30,930

called the five second scramble.

:

00:50:30,930 --> 00:50:34,160

So I'm going to ask each of

you guys a series of questions.

:

00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:36,349

You've got to give me your

response within five seconds.

:

00:50:36,930 --> 00:50:40,410

Uh, a little rapid fire Q and a, if

you will, um, some business, some

:

00:50:40,410 --> 00:50:44,860

personal, you know, we won't air horn

you off if you don't, you know, if

:

00:50:44,919 --> 00:50:46,170

you, if you go over the five seconds.

:

00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,510

So, um, let's, uh, let's

go ahead and jump into it.

:

00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:53,730

We're gonna, we're gonna start with you

in, and then we'll get to you, Paul.

:

00:50:53,879 --> 00:50:55,320

Um, Ian, you're, you're ready for it.

:

00:50:57,950 --> 00:50:58,740

Okay, I'm ready.

:

00:50:59,090 --> 00:50:59,950

All right, let's do it.

:

00:51:00,300 --> 00:51:04,330

All right, explain, um, explain Turbine

One to me as if I were a five year old.

:

00:51:05,270 --> 00:51:07,020

We help people find what

they're looking for.

:

00:51:08,910 --> 00:51:12,900

Could you, uh, give me a description

of what your company culture is like?

:

00:51:14,130 --> 00:51:19,010

Ian Kalin: We have core values that

include, uh, embracing grits and

:

00:51:19,020 --> 00:51:20,419

celebrating veteran experience.

:

00:51:20,420 --> 00:51:21,329

What

:

00:51:22,510 --> 00:51:25,250

Tim Winkler: kind of technologists

thrives at Turbine One?

:

00:51:26,630 --> 00:51:27,720

Uh, the kind that

:

00:51:27,720 --> 00:51:30,640

Ian Kalin: are really, really excited

to hang out on a military base.

:

00:51:31,380 --> 00:51:34,960

And ask lots of questions about the

worst parts of people's days when

:

00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:35,880

they're trying to help our nation.

:

00:51:37,220 --> 00:51:39,620

Tim Winkler: What can folks

be most excited about over at

:

00:51:39,620 --> 00:51:41,920

Turbine One heading into:

:

00:51:43,650 --> 00:51:48,380

Ian Kalin: The overwhelming opportunities

we have to improve people's lives

:

00:51:48,530 --> 00:51:50,509

and help their work be safer.

:

00:51:52,769 --> 00:51:55,240

Tim Winkler: If you could have any

superpower, what would it be and why?

:

00:51:55,940 --> 00:51:56,630

Oh, God.

:

00:51:57,250 --> 00:51:57,310

Oh.

:

00:52:00,870 --> 00:52:02,300

Ian Kalin: No, I have three kids.

:

00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:04,850

So I think the press

comes up all the time.

:

00:52:05,290 --> 00:52:08,710

Uh, time travel to, uh,

:

00:52:10,210 --> 00:52:10,730

Tim Winkler: that's great.

:

00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:15,930

If you had to pick one, we'll

get different questions.

:

00:52:17,710 --> 00:52:18,539

Different questions.

:

00:52:19,085 --> 00:52:19,845

Okay.

:

00:52:20,525 --> 00:52:22,835

Paul Benfield: I was, I'll just

use my time travel to go first.

:

00:52:26,055 --> 00:52:27,425

Tim Winkler: That's

actually a great answer.

:

00:52:28,165 --> 00:52:33,865

Um if you had to pick one fast food joint

to establish as the first restaurant

:

00:52:33,865 --> 00:52:35,985

on Mars, which one would it be?

:

00:52:37,740 --> 00:52:40,240

Ian Kalin: peri chicken from Nando's.

:

00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,840

Uh, so I just think that would

build interstellar diplomacy.

:

00:52:47,380 --> 00:52:49,640

Tim Winkler: Yeah,

Nando's, uh, great plug.

:

00:52:49,819 --> 00:52:52,999

We're, we're, we're fishing for

a Nando's, uh, you know, sponsor.

:

00:52:53,229 --> 00:52:54,179

Ian Kalin: I think it's fast food.

:

00:52:54,179 --> 00:52:55,790

I actually don't know, but

it's like my favorite fast

:

00:52:55,900 --> 00:52:55,980

Tim Winkler: food.

:

00:52:56,029 --> 00:52:56,449

Okay.

:

00:52:56,560 --> 00:53:01,800

Yeah, yeah, that, that, that, that,

that'll, uh, solid choice of solid.

:

00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:02,710

Yeah, it's a good choice.

:

00:53:03,380 --> 00:53:08,540

Um, What's something that you like

to do, but you're not very good at?

:

00:53:09,730 --> 00:53:11,190

Ian Kalin: I don't think

i'm very good at anything.

:

00:53:11,260 --> 00:53:11,930

So music

:

00:53:13,740 --> 00:53:14,140

Tim Winkler: Okay.

:

00:53:15,270 --> 00:53:15,860

All right.

:

00:53:16,340 --> 00:53:19,500

Uh, what is a charity or a

corporate philanthropy that

:

00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:21,599

is near and dear to you blue

:

00:53:21,599 --> 00:53:25,079

Ian Kalin: bear school of music

San francisco where I live, uh, the

:

00:53:25,079 --> 00:53:27,839

extraordinary the original school of

rock an extraordinary set of teachers

:

00:53:28,039 --> 00:53:33,040

as authentic a quality superstar teacher

can be For this real, a real passion for

:

00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,650

improving people's lives in particular,

they bring music education to schools

:

00:53:36,650 --> 00:53:37,930

that have had their funding cut.

:

00:53:38,340 --> 00:53:41,559

They bring the instruments, they

bring the teachers, and I've seen

:

00:53:41,900 --> 00:53:45,790

very directly what it's like to give

a person who cannot afford a guitar.

:

00:53:46,410 --> 00:53:48,579

To give it to them in their hands

for the 1st time, and to see

:

00:53:48,589 --> 00:53:51,159

that teach them how to make some

music, it's, it's overwhelming.

:

00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:54,360

Uh, and I recommend everyone

consider a charity like that.

:

00:53:55,030 --> 00:53:55,920

Tim Winkler: No, it's fantastic.

:

00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,050

Yeah, we'll, we'll make sure to

plug that in the show notes and

:

00:53:59,050 --> 00:54:00,220

build some more awareness for that.

:

00:54:02,170 --> 00:54:04,440

All right, uh, closing out

last couple of questions.

:

00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:06,470

What's something that

you're very afraid of?

:

00:54:06,470 --> 00:54:06,959

Of

:

00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:10,460

Ian Kalin: Paul stealing my answer.

:

00:54:14,420 --> 00:54:15,640

Tim Winkler: Fair enough, yeah.

:

00:54:16,230 --> 00:54:18,566

The best jokes of Paul

traveling back and forth.

:

00:54:18,566 --> 00:54:20,649

It's a circle, it's like, I

got you, I got you, come back.

:

00:54:20,650 --> 00:54:21,600

I got you, Paul, I got you.

:

00:54:23,219 --> 00:54:26,760

And uh, we'll, we'll close it with who

is the greatest superhero of all time?

:

00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:29,750

Uh, my wife.

:

00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,650

Oh, wildcard answer.

:

00:54:32,710 --> 00:54:33,070

Nice.

:

00:54:33,690 --> 00:54:36,010

Ian Kalin: She is, uh, she's the

strongest person I've ever met.

:

00:54:36,430 --> 00:54:36,900

Tim Winkler: Awesome.

:

00:54:37,780 --> 00:54:38,230

All right.

:

00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:42,000

Well, you just earned yourself some,

some bonus points with the family.

:

00:54:42,730 --> 00:54:43,820

Uh, all right.

:

00:54:43,820 --> 00:54:44,340

Well done.

:

00:54:44,340 --> 00:54:45,590

We're going to switch it over.

:

00:54:45,630 --> 00:54:46,940

Um, Paul, are you ready?

:

00:54:47,690 --> 00:54:48,100

Paul Benfield: Yeah.

:

00:54:48,139 --> 00:54:49,300

Now I feel all the pressure.

:

00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:50,030

Tim Winkler: All right.

:

00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:50,940

Let's, let's do it.

:

00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:54,260

Uh, what is your favorite stage

of a startup to invest in?

:

00:54:56,530 --> 00:54:57,020

Uh,

:

00:54:58,629 --> 00:54:59,219

Paul Benfield: it's a good question.

:

00:54:59,219 --> 00:55:03,050

I, I, like A to B, I mean, and also

by the way, the stages have gotten

:

00:55:03,050 --> 00:55:06,605

kind of gotten muddled, but you know,

You got some traction and they're

:

00:55:06,865 --> 00:55:09,885

I really like when they are growing

the team because they've got some

:

00:55:09,885 --> 00:55:12,175

success and now it's about executing

:

00:55:12,175 --> 00:55:12,925

Tim Winkler: for the customer.

:

00:55:14,475 --> 00:55:16,645

What's your favorite part

of the culture at Palace?

:

00:55:18,455 --> 00:55:22,454

Paul Benfield: Uh, very flat,

very matrixed organization.

:

00:55:22,454 --> 00:55:24,324

There's no hierarchy

or anything like that.

:

00:55:24,365 --> 00:55:30,694

Um, everyone and one of our culture, uh,

uh, culture values is, uh, we do windows.

:

00:55:31,355 --> 00:55:33,005

Which I realize is a generational thing.

:

00:55:33,005 --> 00:55:35,125

Like a lot of other younger

folks don't know what that means.

:

00:55:35,135 --> 00:55:38,905

Like, no, like we clean when we're

willing to do anything for, for clients.

:

00:55:40,615 --> 00:55:41,035

Nice.

:

00:55:41,105 --> 00:55:43,625

I have one kid says we

jump out of windows.

:

00:55:44,465 --> 00:55:46,444

I like the motivation, but

that's not what we're going

:

00:55:46,445 --> 00:55:46,575

Tim Winkler: with.

:

00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:48,830

Yeah, that's a terrible value.

:

00:55:53,540 --> 00:55:57,110

What, uh, what technologies are

you most excited about investing

:

00:55:57,110 --> 00:55:58,329

in over the next 12 months?

:

00:55:59,620 --> 00:56:00,210

Oh,

:

00:56:00,270 --> 00:56:00,850

Paul Benfield: 12 months.

:

00:56:00,850 --> 00:56:01,410

That's tough.

:

00:56:01,509 --> 00:56:04,690

Um, uh, probably not in the rules.

:

00:56:04,750 --> 00:56:08,000

I'm gonna change your answer,

uh, or your question farther out.

:

00:56:08,110 --> 00:56:11,670

Uh, let's space logistics, you know,

I'm not, I'm less interested about

:

00:56:11,690 --> 00:56:15,480

another launch provider that's either

slightly better or slightly cheaper, but.

:

00:56:16,025 --> 00:56:18,965

You know, somewhere out there are

companies that are building the

:

00:56:19,145 --> 00:56:21,335

shovels for the space gold mine.

:

00:56:21,425 --> 00:56:22,275

Um, that's, that's

:

00:56:22,275 --> 00:56:22,955

Tim Winkler: what I'm interested in.

:

00:56:23,835 --> 00:56:24,865

Yeah, I like that.

:

00:56:25,725 --> 00:56:31,045

Um, what is, um, I'm sorry, who's

your biggest role model and,

:

00:56:31,045 --> 00:56:32,575

uh, why do they inspire you?

:

00:56:33,445 --> 00:56:34,525

Oh, uh,

:

00:56:36,195 --> 00:56:37,465

Paul Benfield: that's

impossible to answer.

:

00:56:37,465 --> 00:56:43,735

It's a conglomeration of a lot of senior

leaders that I've, uh, served alongside,

:

00:56:44,195 --> 00:56:51,014

um, from, uh, so when I was a brand new

second lieutenant, we got deployed to

:

00:56:51,015 --> 00:56:55,685

Iraq, um, even though I had time in the

army enlisted before I was overwhelmed

:

00:56:55,685 --> 00:56:59,755

as an infantry platoon leader, had a

first sergeant there who was one of my,

:

00:57:00,125 --> 00:57:02,085

you know, all time favorite mentors.

:

00:57:02,955 --> 00:57:07,125

And then I had in the same unit, a major

who was the battalion XO kind of took

:

00:57:07,125 --> 00:57:11,305

me under his wing and I got to serve

alongside people like Stan McChrystal

:

00:57:12,035 --> 00:57:17,915

and Admiral McRaven and I mean, just

crazy, crazy, uh, compelling leaders.

:

00:57:17,925 --> 00:57:22,585

So, conglomeration of a whole

bunch of people over a long career.

:

00:57:23,260 --> 00:57:23,930

Tim Winkler: Yeah, that's a load.

:

00:57:23,980 --> 00:57:24,910

That's a loaded question.

:

00:57:24,930 --> 00:57:25,520

It's a tough one.

:

00:57:25,830 --> 00:57:31,200

Um, what is a charity or corporate

philanthropy that's near and dear to you?

:

00:57:32,190 --> 00:57:33,680

Paul Benfield: So, two quick answers.

:

00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:36,590

One, the American Red Cross, just

because they've been a part of my

:

00:57:36,590 --> 00:57:39,849

life ever since I enlisted in the

army and saw what they did for

:

00:57:39,849 --> 00:57:41,269

service members all over the world.

:

00:57:41,719 --> 00:57:44,979

Um, and, uh, we were fortunate

enough to do some work with them,

:

00:57:45,039 --> 00:57:46,680

uh, at palace a few years ago.

:

00:57:46,990 --> 00:57:50,330

So, just, I know it's a big

kind of corporate philanthropy,

:

00:57:50,330 --> 00:57:52,390

but, uh, super huge fan.

:

00:57:52,825 --> 00:57:56,825

And another one I'd be shot at work if

I didn't bring up palace foundation.

:

00:57:57,235 --> 00:57:59,525

Um, we have a 501 c3.

:

00:57:59,525 --> 00:58:02,485

It's about the next generation of

national security professionals.

:

00:58:03,265 --> 00:58:08,665

And we get, uh, generally grad students,

sometimes undergrad who are interested in

:

00:58:09,005 --> 00:58:12,905

what 90 percent of the time they're taking

international affairs and think they're

:

00:58:12,905 --> 00:58:14,125

going to go work in the State Department.

:

00:58:14,235 --> 00:58:17,085

And then we get them and say, Hey,

there's this, you know, defense tech.

:

00:58:17,530 --> 00:58:18,880

There's defense investing.

:

00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:21,890

There's also hard power defense

and the intelligence community.

:

00:58:22,350 --> 00:58:27,020

Um, and we get six or eight a

semester, actually pay them in D.

:

00:58:27,020 --> 00:58:27,260

C.

:

00:58:27,260 --> 00:58:28,870

isn't which is crazy as our fellows.

:

00:58:30,290 --> 00:58:35,420

And it's just fascinating every semester

to see the quality of young folks

:

00:58:35,420 --> 00:58:40,230

coming through, uh, with just incredibly

impressive resumes at a very young age.

:

00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:44,799

So it's another thing to be optimistic

about is, uh, the futures is in

:

00:58:44,799 --> 00:58:45,160

Tim Winkler: good hands.

:

00:58:46,125 --> 00:58:46,525

Awesome.

:

00:58:46,695 --> 00:58:49,655

Yeah, again, we'll, we'll plug both

of those in the show notes as well.

:

00:58:50,195 --> 00:58:53,865

Um, on a lighter note here, what

was your favorite cereal as a kid?

:

00:58:54,874 --> 00:58:55,455

Oh, it's easy.

:

00:58:55,455 --> 00:58:56,395

Lucky Charms.

:

00:58:56,755 --> 00:58:57,205

Whoa,

:

00:58:57,215 --> 00:58:57,475

Paul Benfield: nice.

:

00:58:57,925 --> 00:59:00,764

Yeah, and I never got it that much

because, you know, I'd be gone in a day

:

00:59:00,764 --> 00:59:02,174

and my parents would be all pissed off.

:

00:59:02,174 --> 00:59:02,414

So

:

00:59:06,695 --> 00:59:09,245

Tim Winkler: It's uh, it's uh,

it's one of the, one of the,

:

00:59:09,255 --> 00:59:10,765

the goat cereals for sure.

:

00:59:11,055 --> 00:59:11,315

Yeah.

:

00:59:11,395 --> 00:59:13,925

Um, do you have a celebrity doppelganger?

:

00:59:16,545 --> 00:59:16,574

Not

:

00:59:16,574 --> 00:59:17,224

Paul Benfield: that I know of.

:

00:59:17,225 --> 00:59:21,244

I don't, they have those like, uh,

filters now that you can plug in and

:

00:59:21,245 --> 00:59:23,095

get your, I don't know who it would be.

:

00:59:23,995 --> 00:59:25,045

No one attractive.

:

00:59:25,045 --> 00:59:25,862

Give us

:

00:59:25,862 --> 00:59:26,679

Tim Winkler: a second.

:

00:59:26,679 --> 00:59:28,485

Give us a second.

:

00:59:28,485 --> 00:59:30,465

Let me just pull up one of

these filters here for you.

:

00:59:32,775 --> 00:59:33,925

Everybody's beautiful.

:

00:59:34,315 --> 00:59:34,685

Yeah.

:

00:59:34,785 --> 00:59:39,084

Um alright, what uh if you could live

in a fictional world from a book or

:

00:59:39,084 --> 00:59:40,995

movie, which one would you choose?

:

00:59:42,875 --> 00:59:43,424

Wow, that's a

:

00:59:43,424 --> 00:59:43,925

Paul Benfield: good one.

:

00:59:48,385 --> 00:59:54,735

Uh I'm currently reading sort of a

weird uh uh historical alternative

:

00:59:54,735 --> 00:59:58,385

history fiction kind of weird thing

about how King Arthur came about.

:

00:59:59,030 --> 01:00:02,040

And the downfall of the Roman Empire

and the rise of the King Arthur myth.

:

01:00:02,310 --> 01:00:04,360

Um, so that's current, so

:

01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:04,930

Tim Winkler: I'll pick that one.

:

01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:08,480

Like a, like a Camelot, uh, kind of Sam.

:

01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:09,580

Yeah, exactly.

:

01:00:10,930 --> 01:00:13,980

Um, what's the worst fashion

trend you've ever followed?

:

01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:16,290

Oh,

:

01:00:18,790 --> 01:00:19,840

Paul Benfield: oh, you don't get this.

:

01:00:20,070 --> 01:00:24,240

This, no, this is, it's, I know exactly

what it is and I'm going to say it.

:

01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:26,460

It might be a little niche for

some of your followers, but.

:

01:00:28,655 --> 01:00:31,285

Ian, I don't know if the Navy had

this, but around the army boot

:

01:00:31,285 --> 01:00:34,235

camps, the enlistees, the first

time they're allowed off base.

:

01:00:34,905 --> 01:00:37,915

And then they've got like the,

the organist, the unit t shirt

:

01:00:37,965 --> 01:00:39,715

tucked into some ill fitting jeans.

:

01:00:39,715 --> 01:00:41,315

And you're normally wearing combat boots.

:

01:00:41,385 --> 01:00:44,644

And so you just look like you've

been in the army for about two and

:

01:00:44,645 --> 01:00:48,624

a half minutes and you walk around

town thinking you're hot shit because

:

01:00:48,624 --> 01:00:50,435

you're in the army and no one cares.

:

01:00:51,385 --> 01:00:52,525

But they all dress the same.

:

01:00:52,575 --> 01:00:56,034

They all dress with ill fitting

jeans and some sort of military

:

01:00:56,035 --> 01:00:57,465

paraphernalia tucked in.

:

01:00:57,905 --> 01:01:00,395

And army boots, probably a baseball hat

:

01:01:00,395 --> 01:01:00,645

Tim Winkler: too.

:

01:01:01,165 --> 01:01:01,975

Oh, that's solid.

:

01:01:02,725 --> 01:01:02,965

Yeah.

:

01:01:03,065 --> 01:01:06,665

Well, let's, let's get a picture to,

to post up, uh, for you for a list.

:

01:01:06,665 --> 01:01:08,635

Luckily it was pre social media.

:

01:01:08,635 --> 01:01:10,435

So those, all

:

01:01:10,435 --> 01:01:11,904

Ian Kalin: right,

:

01:01:12,285 --> 01:01:13,644

Tim Winkler: we'll close

it out with this last one.

:

01:01:13,644 --> 01:01:15,645

What was your dream job as a kid?

:

01:01:17,055 --> 01:01:20,455

Paul Benfield: Uh, dream job as a

kid and I honestly, it was the army.

:

01:01:20,825 --> 01:01:25,765

Um, so, uh, my, my dad's side of the

family for many generations was U.

:

01:01:25,765 --> 01:01:25,915

S.

:

01:01:25,944 --> 01:01:26,434

Navy.

:

01:01:26,745 --> 01:01:29,414

My mom's side of the family

for many generations was U.

:

01:01:29,415 --> 01:01:29,575

S.

:

01:01:29,575 --> 01:01:29,945

Army.

:

01:01:30,635 --> 01:01:33,855

And I really didn't know which one I

wanted to do until I read the Tom Clancy

:

01:01:33,855 --> 01:01:38,755

book, Red Storm Rising, which I know is

the red, I highly recommend, but set in

:

01:01:38,755 --> 01:01:41,274

the eighties of the war with the Soviets.

:

01:01:41,274 --> 01:01:45,505

And I'm like, wow, those guys stuck on

that ship or having a miserable time.

:

01:01:45,755 --> 01:01:48,475

And I'd like the idea of walk

around the woods and going camping.

:

01:01:48,484 --> 01:01:49,635

So it really came down to that.

:

01:01:51,790 --> 01:01:52,580

Tim Winkler: Good stuff.

:

01:01:52,620 --> 01:01:56,370

Well, yeah, I think on that note, we

will, we will kind of wrap things up.

:

01:01:56,370 --> 01:01:59,360

I'd um, also say like, thank

you both for, for your service.

:

01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:02,090

Um, thank you all for joining us.

:

01:02:02,090 --> 01:02:03,399

You've been fantastic guests.

:

01:02:03,460 --> 01:02:06,870

Uh, excited to continue tracking the,

you know, this innovative work that

:

01:02:06,870 --> 01:02:11,988

you're both doing, um, trying to,

you know, move the needle here within

:

01:02:11,988 --> 01:02:14,440

the defense tech, you know, industry.

:

01:02:14,845 --> 01:02:18,475

Um, and just, yeah, I appreciate

you all, uh, joining us on the pod.

:

01:02:18,875 --> 01:02:19,445

It's a good time.

:

01:02:20,465 --> 01:02:21,035

Appreciate it.

:

01:02:21,195 --> 01:02:22,165

Paul Benfield: No, thanks for having us.

:

01:02:22,225 --> 01:02:24,954

And, uh, yeah, like Ian mentioned

this earlier, it's incredibly

:

01:02:24,954 --> 01:02:27,814

important topic, a lot to be

optimistic about, but there's also

:

01:02:27,815 --> 01:02:28,455

Ian Kalin: a lot of work to do.

:

01:02:29,435 --> 01:02:29,745

Yeah.

:

01:02:29,835 --> 01:02:32,235

Uh, I'm grateful for you

putting this together and thank

:

01:02:32,235 --> 01:02:34,734

you to the extended network.

:

01:02:34,745 --> 01:02:38,035

You know, Paul and I would not have jobs

if it was not for the people still serving

:

01:02:38,875 --> 01:02:43,095

all the, the, uh, the folks working

in civil service who don't get enough.

:

01:02:43,495 --> 01:02:45,744

Thanks and credit money for

what they're doing for the.

:

01:02:46,065 --> 01:02:47,965

You know, all the folks that are,

you know, pumping leadership and

:

01:02:47,975 --> 01:02:49,345

money into these organizations.

:

01:02:49,715 --> 01:02:53,515

Um, that is ultimately why we're here,

all of us, actually, strangely, right?

:

01:02:53,875 --> 01:02:55,965

Uh, and so we're grateful

to be part of that team.

:

01:02:55,965 --> 01:02:58,555

And thanks again for giving us a

chance here to just tell a few stories.

Chapters