Tech, Tactics, and Transformation: Inside the DefenseTech Revolution | The Pair Program Ep36

Join us in this episode as we dive deep into the world of defense technology innovation with two exceptional leaders, Ian Kalin, CEO of TurbineOne, and Paul Benfield, Director of Pallas Advisors.

In this insightful conversation, our guests share the story of how they forged a dynamic partnership aimed at revolutionizing the defense and intelligence industry. Discover how they navigate the intricate landscape of government contracts and serving the U.S. military, offering firsthand accounts of the industry's inner workings.

About the guests:

Paul Benfield is the Director of Pallas Advisors, partnering with innovative companies developing break-through technology with compelling national security applications. His background includes 20 years of service in the U.S. Army in various Airborne, Special Operations, and Infantry units. His final assignment was as Special Assistant to the Deputy Secretary of Defense, focusing on Department of Defense innovation and modernization priorities. Paul is also an Adjunct Senior Fellow for the Defense Program at the Center for a New American Security (CNAS).

Ian Kalin is passionate about modernizing government technology. Career highlights include the Navy as a Counter Terrorism Officer and Nuclear Engineer, clean-tech entrepreneur, the first Chief Data Officer for the U.S. Department of Commerce, and the CTO of Medicare.com. His public service has been recognized through awards from the U.S. Secretary of Energy for responses to natural disasters and from Harvard for accomplishments at the intersection of technology and public policy.

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Welcome to The Pair Program from hatchpad.

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The podcast that gives you a front

row seat to candid conversations with

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tech leaders from the startup world.

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I'm your host, Tim Winkler,

the creator of hatchpad.

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Mike Gruen: And I'm your other host, Mike

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Tim Winkler: Gruen.

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Join us each episode as we bring

together two guests to dissect topics

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at the intersection of technology,

startups, and career growth.

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So everyone, welcome

back to The Pair Program.

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It's Tim Winkler here.

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I've got Mike Gruen with me as always.

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Um All right, Mike.

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So I, I saw this, um, scenario based

question pop up scrolling aimlessly

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on Instagram the other day, and I

thought it was, uh, that was creative.

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So I want to run it by you.

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So here, here we go.

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If you were randomly dropped into a

pro sporting event with your entire

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country's hopes and dreams on the line,

Which would you most want to attempt?

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A, a free throw, b, a penalty kick, C, a

25 yard field goal, or d, a six foot putt,

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Mike Gruen: uh, penalty kick all day.

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I played soccer.

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Uh, that's the only one.

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Penalty.

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Kick the only one.

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I feel like I have any, any

real shot at, uh, basketball.

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No way.

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Yeah.

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Unless, unless we're

talking about manager golf.

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No way.

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Uh, yeah.

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Tim Winkler: Yeah.

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I feel like it's probably

pretty good odds, right?

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I feel like, you know, you

don't have to get too crazy.

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Just, just get it in the,

in that box area, right?

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The goal.

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You know

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Mike Gruen: what?

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Just get it on that.

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Don't, you know, don't like

kick it way up over the goal.

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I think would be the,

don't sky it to the moon,

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Tim Winkler: kick it as slow as possible.

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Uh, not slow, but you know,

yeah, it was a good one.

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I was, I was running it by a few folks,

but I, I, I think I'm, I, I, I think

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that I'm leaning into the free throw

just because I, I played a lot of

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basketball growing up, but damn it.

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That's embarrassing.

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If you miss a free throw like that

and like, uh, all eyes on you, but

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yeah, either of those, like all of

those options are, are kinda tricky.

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Ian, what are you, what's

your answer on that?

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I'm kind of curious.

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Ian Kalin: I'm a data geek.

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So part of me wants to like look

at the history of all of those

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shots and see which one has the

highest probability of success.

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In absence of having the data,

I would go with soccer as well.

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I'm Latino.

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I just felt like more of my, my

roots would somehow magically

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work their way into my body and

ensure that I actually delivered.

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Tim Winkler: Um,

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Ian Kalin: but, uh, I'm thinking

about free throws, uh, cause I just,

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uh, saw Shaquille O'Neal DJ a concert

this weekend in San Francisco.

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And I think his DJ skills are about

up there with his basketball free

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Tim Winkler: throw.

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Ian Kalin: Well, you know, he's, he's,

he's, he's up with the greats, right?

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There was a lot of competition,

some really great DJs.

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So it's kind of like, you know,

you can't, if you're an amateur

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among the professionals, you

gotta know what you're doing.

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Tim Winkler: Sure.

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All right.

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Let's give our listeners a

preview of today's episode.

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So today we are building on a mini

series of topics focused on the

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intersection of tech startups and

doing business with the government.

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So I'm sure that there are many folks

out there that have asked themselves, you

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know, the common question of, you know,

why are there not more successful startups

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innovating in the government space?

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It shouldn't be that complicated, right?

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Well, it's extremely complicated actually.

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And that's why we've got two

guests joining us who've been there

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and done that and have survived

to tell, to tell the story.

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So we've got Ian Callan, the CEO

and co founder of Turbine One.

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Uh, Ian has a background in the

U S Navy, has spent 20 years

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modernizing government technology.

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Um, and we have Paul Binfield,

the director of emerging

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technologies at Palace Advisors.

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Um, Paul previously served as.

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A special assistant to the deputy

secretary, deputy secretary of defense,

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focusing on Department of Defense

innovation and modernization priorities.

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And he's also served more

than 20 years in the U.

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S.

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Army in various airborne, special

ops, infantry units, uh, including

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services, a joints chief of staff

fellow and a company commander, platoon

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leader, and a non commissioned officer.

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It's a mouthful.

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But, uh, a notable background.

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So Ian, Paul, glad you guys could join us.

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Yeah, my pleasure.

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All right.

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Um, before we jump into the heavy

stuff, let's, uh, let's kick

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things off with our favorite bit.

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Pair me up.

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Um, this is a fun little segment

where we jump around the room.

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We kickball a couple of

our favorite pairings.

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Um, Mike, what is your pairing for today?

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Mike Gruen: So mine's kind of boring,

uh, but we'll go with it anyway.

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Card games and friends.

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Uh, this past weekend, we had some good

friends over my friends from college.

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Um, in fact, he was the one who

taught me spades, a college roommate.

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Um, and so him and his wife and

my wife, uh, we all played, um,

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spades and then other card games.

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And it was just sort of nice to, it was

just nice, um, sort of call back to, to

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that, those days of college and just, you

know, sitting around no responsibilities

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and shooting the breeze, so.

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That's, that's my parent.

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Tim Winkler: That's a good one.

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It's crazy how much time you can spend

with just a deck of cards, right?

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I mean, there's so many, so

many things you can play.

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Like, um, my wife and I, we did something

similar, like went camping and there's

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nothing to do, no, no technology.

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And, you know, we stayed busy for hours

with just a deck of cards, playing spades.

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Yep.

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Mike Gruen: We, um, our, my wife

and I, our go to is cribbage.

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Uh, that's our, like, I have

a tiny little cribbage board.

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Um, that I, I can bring

with us on, on trips.

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Um, so I was back in a deck

of cards just, just in case.

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So there's cribbage and then also, um,

my wife and I also met playing poker.

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So, uh, we'll play a game

called Russian poker, which is

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Ian Kalin: just dangerous on that story.

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Whatever that story is.

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I'm sure we can make it a lot longer and

more about your current situation, but.

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So I mean, so the family life, I got

kids and one of the most bizarre,

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wonderful, surprising joys of fatherhood

is teaching your kids different

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card games to see them crush you.

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Like when that happens, it's like

actually a really proud moment, like, wow.

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My seven year old just destroyed

me and you're angry and

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happy all at the same time.

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It's, it's wonderful.

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It's a great thing.

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Mike Gruen: Yep.

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I've, uh, so my grandparents

taught me poker and blackjack

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when I was really little.

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Um, and so I've continued that

tradition of teaching my kids

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when they were very little.

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And so now, um, now they're in middle

school and high school and they.

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They at least know how to play.

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Um, so there's

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Tim Winkler: that.

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Yeah.

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Teach, teach your kids how

to gamble in early age.

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I think is, is important

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Mike Gruen: kids and gambling, I guess,

would be another parent for another day.

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All

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Paul Benfield: right.

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Um,

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Tim Winkler: all right.

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I'll, I'll, I'll jump in.

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So for, for my parent, I'm going to

drift back into a nice, comfortable.

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zone with a food pairing.

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So nothing, nothing too

crazy with this one.

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I'm going with fresh

tomatoes and mozzarella.

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So my wife and I, we've been hitting up

local farmer's market here, uh, every

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weekend, and we found this produce vendor.

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Who's just got.

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The freshest tomatoes.

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So we've been picking up fresh tomatoes,

fresh mozzarella and making Caprese

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salads and they're freaking delicious.

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Do a little, little balsamic vinegar

on it, a little fresh basil, some sea

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salt, and, um, yeah, we're working with

a, uh, an all out meal at that point.

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So that's my pairing, fresh

tomatoes and fresh mozzarella.

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Really going

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Mike Gruen: with some controversy there.

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Yeah,

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Tim Winkler: no one's debating that.

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That's a, that's a given.

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Um, cool.

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Let's, let's, uh, let's

pass it over to our guests.

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So Paul, uh, how about a quick intro

from you and, uh, and your parent?

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Paul Benfield: Thanks.

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Um, so Paul Benfield, and as you

mentioned, uh, spent 20 years in the army.

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Um, the, uh, the last job I had was

working for the deputy secretary of

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defense, who his role is kind of a

combination of the CFO the department,

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so a lot of internal operations.

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But also running the budget

in the budget process.

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So really valuable and rewarding

experience learning about how that

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process works, but also incredibly

frustrating seeing the lack of ability

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to actually incorporate what was my

portfolio was emerging technology.

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And so this is a 2014 15 timeframe

and we're looking at things like low

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Earth orbit satellites and autonomous

robots and AI and machine learning.

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Um, and, and all of this was to

say, Hey, this technology is coming.

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Is the department prepared to

actually adopt it and use it?

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Uh, and so when I left government,

uh, started working for the consulting

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firm that I'm at now palace, and we

were trying to, uh, fast track, getting

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technology into the hands of men and

women downrange as fast as possible.

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And we're all pretty frustrated

with what we saw in the department

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and thought maybe there's a chance

to influence that from the outside.

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And then after doing that, uh, about a

year and a half, we added on a venture

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capital arm where we do a special

purpose vehicle, uh, investments for,

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uh, you know, early stage companies.

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Nice.

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Uh, so, uh, thanks for having me.

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Um, uh, great topic.

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And, uh, my pairing is, uh,

is baseball and football.

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Uh, this is my favorite time of the year

when they're both on simultaneously.

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Uh, my, my team for baseball is a New

York Yankees, not having a great year,

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but, uh, my fantasy draft is this weekend

and I'll have something to distract me

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from my terrible showing from my home

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Tim Winkler: team.

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That's right.

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Who's, uh, who's your football team then?

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Um,

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Paul Benfield: I have, okay, so

it's a long story, but, uh, I was,

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uh, I'm born and raised in Florida.

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Uh, and so the Tampa Bay

Buccaneers were my team.

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Uh, until John Gruden ruined them, and

I've never rooted for Tampa Bay since.

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Uh, I'm a Tony Dungy fan,

not a John Gruden fan.

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So, so now my team is whichever one has a

player on my fantasy team on television.

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That's, that's my team.

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Nice.

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There you

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Tim Winkler: go.

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Solid.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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We, we had a, uh, we had a Gruden

over here, uh, in DC as well.

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And um, yeah, it wasn't the.

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It wasn't the highlight of our, of our

seasons either , but, uh, I thought

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you were gonna say, I was a, I was a

Buccaneers fan until Tom Brady left, and

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now I'm, now I've gotta find a new team.

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Oh, no, no.

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This, this predates, yeah, predates

the, the Golden, the golden boy.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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The golden

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Paul Benfield: era of, uh, Brady

and the Gronk in Tampa Bay.

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Yeah.

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I've seen like 18 months.

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Tim Winkler: Yeah, sure.

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Been entertaining to

watch though, we'll say.

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Oh, yeah.

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Um, alright.

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Good stuff.

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Well, let's pass it over to, uh, Ian.

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Uh, Ian, thanks for joining us.

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How about a quick, uh,

intro and, and your pairing?

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Sure.

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Uh,

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Ian Kalin: so thanks

for inviting me as well.

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Uh, excited to, to get together

and chat about this topic that I

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don't think that's enough attention.

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So I'm, I'm starting off

with a, a big old gratitude.

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Thank you.

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Uh, on the bio side.

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Yeah, I'm, I'm, uh, addicted to

improving American government services.

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I think our nation deserves better,

uh, citizens deserve better, and

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it's worth fighting for, um, on the

pairing side, uh, as you can probably

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tell from my, uh, background here,

I'm kind of a music nut and I've

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already mentioned the music festival

that, uh, I've spent this weekend on.

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And so I'm going to go another one there.

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And my pairing is arpeggios

and a steady backbeat.

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It was like this strange, uh, theme,

whether it was like country music or

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EDM or hip hop or, you know, whatever,

like new, like alt rock, it was just

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like all these people, all these

performers have this like little like,

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do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do kind

of like on the guitar or the piano.

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And then just do that

for a couple of bars.

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And then it came with a boom, boom, boom.

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That like, and it just made

everyone, regardless of music

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type just lose their minds.

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And every time that happens, you can

almost kind of like formulaically

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look for that in the music, like,

wow, that's a great pairing.

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Like, I don't know what that is, right?

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Like old, young, rich, poor, something

there makes humans want to move

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and it just works so damn well.

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So I'm going to play with

that a little bit later.

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So I think I found a trend that

I'm going to seek to exploit.

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Tim Winkler: Yeah, for, for those not

watching on the, the YouTube channel,

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Ian has, what is that like six or

seven guitars in the background?

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Various

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Ian Kalin: types, you

know, they're all the same.

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No, no, no.

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They're very different.

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They're incredibly, they have

nothing to do with each other.

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Um, but yeah, this is just a few,

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Tim Winkler: yeah, and for those

that, that stay on till the very

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end, Ian, we'll put on a little,

a little show on each one of them.

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I think,

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Mike Gruen: I think we all

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Ian Kalin: deserve better than

that if you're listening to this

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podcast, you've got too much other

important stuff to be working on.

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The

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Mike Gruen: five second scramble,

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Tim Winkler: Captain.

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Um, Cool.

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All right.

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Well, we'll, um, we'll appreciate

those intros, uh, and, and parents

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is great, great insights all around.

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So let's, let's keep moving ahead here.

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Uh, so like I mentioned, we're going to,

we're going to talk a little bit about

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how, you know, these tech startups can

best navigate the government terrain.

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Um, we're going to talk some, some

partnerships, uh, just kind of given

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some of this relationship as well

between palace and turbine one, uh,

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some of the regulations, uh, making,

you know, sense of some of this

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tech lingo to, to government folks.

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Um, and, uh, and, uh, let's,

let's just kind of jump in.

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So I'd like to begin with a clarifying

for our, our listeners, you know, the,

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the relationship between turbine one and,

and, and palace advisors, and can use this

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as a good jump off to build a little bit

more context on the, the kinds of problems

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that each of your companies are solving.

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And so, Why don't we start with you

in, uh, and giving us a little bit

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more clarity on, on turbine one and

the, and then, uh, you know, the,

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the problems that you're solving

and the role that, you know, palace

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advisors kind of serves with you guys.

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Yeah, so the,

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Ian Kalin: there's a lot of questions

that are unpacked, but the most

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important problem to start with is

that there is no natural pairing

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between defense and new tech.

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It's an unnatural pairing.

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I don't want that to be

true, but it is true.

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And so, in order to introduce new

tech into an organization that

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desperately needs it, and then

everyone knows desperately needs it.

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There needs to be a guy, a translator.

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A combination of strategy and tactics,

someone who can help you through this

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terrible system and ultimately find a

way to communicate so that fundamentally

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you can compel a degree of change that

change is not natural in the system.

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And so it has to be either

invoked or inspired or shut.

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And so to do that is hard when you,

if you're trying to convince someone

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of something, but you don't speak

the language, it's really hard to do.

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So, and so what I'd recommend to every

other tech founder, regardless of type,

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if you have an airplane, if you have

a shield, if you have a tech software

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mobile application, I'd actually

recommend you engage palace advisors.

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They have been very good to us in helping

us understand where to go, where to focus

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our efforts and to fundamentally bring

a product forward that can save a life.

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But even that product alone is

not going to get it to the hands

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of the warfighters that need it.

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It needs someone to ultimately

translate it's value.

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And to that end, I've been

incredibly grateful for what

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Palace has done in partnership with

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Tim Winkler: Turbine One.

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That's awesome.

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Yeah, I want to expand more on, on

what you guys are doing at Palace,

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Paul, but Ian, real quick on the

Turbine One, um, What, yeah, tell

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me a little bit more about the, the

work that you all are doing was on

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the stuff that you guys are building.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Ian Kalin: Uh, so I served in the Navy for

a little bit, as you mentioned, and I wish

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I had our product back when I served, uh,

fundamentally, we're a software company,

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uh, and we're an Intel analytics platform.

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We help people find what

they're looking for.

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Uh, the bad guys, the bad shifts, uh,

weapons, we are our toolkit and we

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give that toolkit to people so that

they can find what they're looking for.

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Most of our customers today are

in the intelligence surveillance

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and reconnaissance world.

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They're fundamentally just

trying to inform decision makers.

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And what's fun about our software product,

even as a young business, we have seen

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our tool transform people's lives.

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They are not doing their job the same

way after being given our tool set.

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Uh, and so that's what gives us great

motivation at our small, but mighty.

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Uh, venture back seed stage, you know,

tech startup, the, the, the drive and

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ambition to keep charging forward and to

keep building something that, uh, deserves

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to be far further forward for the U.

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S.

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military and the intelligence community.

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Tim Winkler: Cool.

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Do you, are, are you guys, um, do

you have any commercial applications?

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Ian Kalin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I mean, the funny thing about trying

to find something that's actually

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really common, uh, you know, Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And our toolkit is so easy to

use that we've seen our end users

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taking in places we never expected.

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My kids are very good at using our

software product, whether you're

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trying to figure out, you know, which

dog stole which shoe real story, by

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the way, happened with 1 of my kids.

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Um, and it's a part of our differentiation

within the AI machine learning category.

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We have given people a tool kit

to build new detectors without the

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cloud, any hardware, any object.

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And so if it's.

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Simple, easy to use, and

you can take it anywhere.

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We've seen people take our tech to

places you never expected, which is

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part of the fun of a startup life.

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You know, when you give someone a pair

of scissors, they can, you know, do all

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sorts of funny things with it, which are

great, but also potentially dangerous.

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And so that that's part of the

responsibility that we're also

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constantly obsessing over.

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In this AI and defense world, but

yeah, about a 3rd of our business is

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on the commercial industrial side.

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Again, trying to find if something

going to explode, if something going

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to leak, is something going to go boom

or break that, uh, that responsibility

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to keep people safe at work is the core

of what our software technology does.

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Tim Winkler: Yeah.

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Simple, easy to use and

government customers.

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Sounds like a great pairing to me.

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It's like, uh, just make sure that's

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Ian Kalin: the funny thing about it.

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It's like, wait, this can't be real.

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Wait, any hardware?

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Come on.

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What do you mean?

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It's not, they don't believe

that it's the, the sector has

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been so poisoned by bad actors,

I saw this when I was in uniform.

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I saw when I was in, uh, the,

uh, presidential administration

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as a acquisition official,

which we can get into.

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And now I'm seeing it as a startup.

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There are so many bad actors slinging

snake oil and some, many of them don't

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even think they're doing something bad.

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They really think they're trying to

help, but it is, it is disgusting

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the level of abuse I've seen.

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And so when you show up with

a real product that actually

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works, that's not possible.

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That can't be true beyond

a PowerPoint slide.

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I've never seen that before.

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And so that a lot of

it's just building trust.

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Between the communities that are

not used to talking to each other

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anymore because it's been so much

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Tim Winkler: poison in

the well for so long.

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Yeah, we'll pull on that through a

little bit, a little bit more to on

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on how to build that trust and some

of those tactics to get those products

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in the right hands of the right folks.

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But, um, let's kick over to Paul.

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Uh, so Paul, you know,

uh, you know, Ian kind of.

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Briefly touched on it, but talk to us a

little bit, a little bit more about how

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you all kind of serve as this shepherd,

you know, for, for these, these, these

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founders, these, these startups that

are trying to navigate these, uh,

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uncharted waters, like, uh, uh, what

is it that you all are doing here?

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Tell me, tell me some, a

couple of examples of how this,

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uh, house palace is serving.

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Paul Benfield: Yeah, so I'll start

with the best case scenario, right?

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Um, well, the team take a step back.

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Um, I have this thing where I said

there is no single person in the

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Department of Defense that can write a

check that individual does not exist.

431

Like, in the commercial sector, you

go find the CFO or the CEO and they'll

432

buy something right there, right?

433

Does not exist in the

Department of Defense.

434

So while there's no one that can say yes.

435

It seems like every single

person can say no, right?

436

And so how do you get through all that?

437

So best case scenario?

438

Here's what you can do.

439

Uh, you find your end user, your customer,

and normally that's, uh, you know,

440

a young person on the ground or in a

staff job in an operation center using

441

the software holding the metal, right?

442

That's the that's the validator.

443

That's who we're all trying to target.

444

Uh, Get improved tech to

get anything to that person.

445

You need a contract vehicle and that's

a pipeline through which money flows.

446

Um, and it could be an OTA.

447

It could be and I'm not going to

explain these acronyms and throw out

448

some alphabet soup could be a sever.

449

It could be through D.

450

I.

451

U.

452

could be an OTA.

453

It could be all of these things.

454

Um, unlikely is it going to be a program

of record that is a big, you know, big

455

ticket dollar item that, you know, because

you're a startup now, assuming you find

456

an end user that likes your stuff and

a contract vehicle, then you have to

457

figure out what program office owns that

contract vehicle to that end user and that

458

program offices likely bought something

slightly less effective, maybe slightly

459

more expensive for many, many years.

460

And their incentive is just to

hit renew and, you know, do that

461

again over and over and over again.

462

So what you really need is a champion,

some senior leader in the military

463

that can drive down requirements

and say to that program office,

464

no, no, no, I want something new.

465

I want new requirements.

466

Uh, so imagine, uh, I

know I laid that out.

467

It sounds complicated.

468

We haven't got the complicated part.

469

Um, so end user contract vehicle,

a program office and a champion.

470

Imagine you're somebody from

Austin or Boston or, you know,

471

Silicon Valley got this great tech.

472

Don't know anything about D.

473

O.

474

D.

475

Not only do you not know how to navigate

that, you don't even know how to identify

476

where to, where to start with that.

477

And so it's a lot of stakeholder

mapping and, and being able to identify

478

where the correct, uh, the current

pain points are for certain people.

479

And then get that tech in

front of those people, uh.

480

You know, as quick and sometimes

as often as it takes repeated hits

481

Tim Winkler: as you can.

482

And so palace is basically taking

on a lot of all that heavy lifting

483

of doing the steps on on your

behalf on the founder's behalf

484

Paul Benfield: We try to now now

palace also works with small startups

485

and fortune 10 global companies.

486

So it's not all the same.

487

And there is a spectrum

of support by the way.

488

Um, you know, if you're a startup,

every single dollar is the most single

489

important single dollar you've got.

490

Right.

491

And so not everyone can afford.

492

a team of retired generals to go beat the

bushes for them to find them business.

493

Um, maybe you have, you know, so

palace is one style of consulting

494

and just us, we have a spectrum.

495

Maybe you have just one or two retired

military folks or folks that come out

496

of government as a, you know, advisory

board members that help out your company.

497

Um, maybe you just want a project

of, I just need a kind of a, uh,

498

Um, a mapping of the ecosystem.

499

Tell me what the front doors look like.

500

And then I'll go from there.

501

And sometimes it gets into

organizational management as the

502

companies grow and start building

sales teams and field service reps and

503

customer engagement and all of that.

504

Um, we can be sort of, uh, uh, chief of

staff kind of by default and help organize

505

and synchronize that kind of stuff.

506

Tim Winkler: So I, I'm, uh, I want to

kind of like play this into, into your

507

court and in terms of like, you know,

specifically, you know, with turbine

508

one, like the areas that really can't.

509

You know, came in your, in your viewpoint

of like extremely beneficial because it

510

sounds to me like you've already had some

experience, some experience here, right?

511

You know, some former military

experience, um, have served, you

512

know, directly in the government

for some different agencies as well.

513

Um, you know, so what was it that you were

like, you know, seen as one of the more

514

advantageous pieces of this partnership,

uh, specifically for like Turbine 1?

515

A partnership with Palace?

516

Yeah, uh, I'll double

down on, uh, the language

517

Ian Kalin: of communication, but also in

the earliest days trying to figure out

518

the most important problems to solve,

you know, in the commercial industry.

519

Uh, if I was a new shopping

app, I can build it.

520

I can go to a shopping mall.

521

I can guess, you know, random people

to test it out and give me feedback.

522

I can run back to the engineers and

have a new version of the next day.

523

To test something in the field with the U.

524

S.

525

military is virtually impossible,

and many people believe it's illegal.

526

It's not, but they think it is.

527

And so, how the hell do you get something

to a person who really needs it, who

528

thinks they're not allowed to talk

to you, let alone special operations.

529

Just, whatever.

530

Stereotypical big army, just

going to a hospital or something.

531

Like, hey, this could save a life.

532

Want to check it out?

533

They'd be like, no, no, no,

I'm not allowed to touch it.

534

I'm not, what are you doing with my data?

535

Like, you can't, you can't just do that.

536

Um, so then how can you understand that

the actual customer needs and user needs.

537

Iterate and get paid for the, there's

a very complex system that prevents

538

what is normal in tech life for

industry or commercial direct consumer

539

models to apply it to the government.

540

It can still be done.

541

But in the earliest days, figuring

out, well, can you just help me figure

542

out, like, if you were the end user, it

wasn't that long ago that you were blank.

543

Or maybe it's your advisory network.

544

Hey, you used to be in charge

of this giant operation.

545

What were some of your

biggest pain points, sir?

546

You know, like, and then, you know,

the retired three star general may not

547

really know, honestly, what's going

on, and the good ones will tell you.

548

I was, it's been a long time since I've

held a rifle, but I'll tell you what

549

my soldiers were demanding, and what

I'm pretty sure they still don't have.

550

That's magic.

551

Because that at least the signal that

any entrepreneur can take to say, all

552

right, you know, I'm only 80 percent

confident, but we should work in this

553

prototype, get it out to an exercise and

to a demo for conferencing and get a booth

554

and like, hey, just talk to real life

folks who are in uniform in the right

555

environments that can give you feedback.

556

So, it cuts out the death spiral

of the chicken and the egg.

557

Like, it gives you a starting

point to have a trusted advisor.

558

And that was, I would say, the early

days of what was most valuable in the

559

partnership between Turbine One and

560

Tim Winkler: Palace.

561

Yeah, it's fascinating.

562

I, I've, um, grew up in the D.

563

C.

564

area, and, you know, we've, we've

obviously, you know, talked to a lot of,

565

you know, big government contractors,

um, you know, there's a lot of these

566

8A, like, services, uh, contracting

companies that have popped up, which it's

567

great to, to give these, these smaller,

you know, um, Smaller businesses and

568

opportunity to come in and help from a

services perspective, but from a product

569

perspective, it's a whole nother ballgame

and to see that divide and to see.

570

Like, yeah, I like the way you

describe it of like trying to

571

speak a different language, you

know, it is extremely complicated.

572

Um, but I will say that I've, I

have seen, uh, just in the last, you

573

know, in the last year, you know,

a big, uh, a big pivot, a big push

574

to, to really be a little bit more

open to, you know, accepting of.

575

Uh, this commercial technology and

really like understanding and almost

576

like looking in the mirror of like,

you're right, you know, we need to

577

modernize, like we need to move quicker.

578

We need to figure out how to solve these

problems for war fighters and so forth.

579

And other, other examples,

like in space travel and such.

580

Um, so to, to, to see a firm

like palace, I really see a.

581

Huge use case, um, uh, you know, cause

even being here in the DC area, like,

582

you know, you pull somebody from Austin

has got no idea what it's, you know,

583

what this environment can be like,

it's, it's extremely complicated.

584

So certainly, uh, a valuable partnership,

um, I can see you all serving and so

585

I, you all also have a venture arm.

586

Do you all, uh, invest in any

specific, um, you know, verticals,

587

uh, dual use tech, uh, anything

that, that comes top of mind.

588

Yeah, it's, uh,

589

Paul Benfield: other than

dual use, it's tech agnostic.

590

Um, uh, we prefer, and it's not always

the case, but we prefer to have a

591

consulting relationship with them.

592

Um, because of the SPV model, uh,

you know, we can't spread risk

593

across all of the investments.

594

So, you know, that whole, we're

willing to take eight strikeouts

595

to get one home run in our fund.

596

We, we can't do that because

each deal has different LPs.

597

How do you mitigate the risk?

598

Well, uh, instead of getting a quarterly,

uh, update, you know, on, on what the

599

company is doing, we want to help not

just build the go to market strategy, but

600

help execute that go to market strategy.

601

Um, but yeah, we've done seed investment.

602

We've done a follow on to up to C.

603

Um, and so it's.

604

Uh, kind of wide ranging, but generally we

will sidecar a small part of the cap table

605

for a, you know, a seed series, a company

that we know really, really well that

606

we've gotten to know over the year or two.

607

Tim Winkler: Okay.

608

So it's, it's a lot of, it's based on,

you know, you've, you've maybe worked with

609

them in the past or you, you've got some

intel on them just generally speaking, you

610

know, from a, an investment perspective

and maybe it's not just from the palace,

611

um, point of view, but you know, what is

it that you would say, you know, makes

612

a, a tech startup particularly appealing

or promising in the eyes of, of investors

613

and, and government agencies is there.

614

Okay.

615

Things that you pick up on that you're

like, Oh, this will probably resonate

616

well, um, you know, in this a little

bit more regulated type of space,

617

not getting too specific on like, you

know, you can talk verticals, but I'm

618

trying to think if there's like other

things that, that you pick up on.

619

No, I mean,

620

Paul Benfield: I think, and some

people, by the way, there's kind of

621

disagreement out there in the market on

this, but, uh, in my personal opinion.

622

Uh, I think you kind of have to have

not have to, but it's helpful to

623

have a commercial revenue It does

two things simultaneously One the

624

valley of death is a real thing.

625

Um, and uh, you know A lot of

people like to throw out the winners

626

who made it as startups of, you

know, the Anduril and Palantir and

627

Shield and, um, SpaceX even, right?

628

Um, they all had billionaires behind

them that could subsidize the, the

629

length of time it took them to grow.

630

Um, if you're a startup without a

billionaire in your back pocket,

631

It might be helpful to have some

commercial revenue, uh, wait for

632

that government contract to hit.

633

Tim Winkler: Yeah, it

brings up a good point.

634

That was on my list.

635

Um, we're talking about like sales

cycles, um, you know, in timelines,

636

you know, what, what are some, what

are some of these timelines that you've

637

seen, um, you know, quick, you know,

quickest, longest, um, averages, uh,

638

for, for founders out there that are.

639

thinking about making that leap and,

and, um, you know, trying to figure

640

out kind of runway they might want to

expect before, uh, something might hit.

641

Yeah,

642

Paul Benfield: Ian, I don't

know if you want to take this.

643

You've lived it.

644

Ian Kalin: Yeah, uh, I mean,

I want to talk a lot more

645

about the venture side too.

646

I mean, I'm a venture backed startup.

647

So you're, you're asking the investor,

but I'm also the, the, the founder of you.

648

I have some, uh, maybe some different

opinions than what's opposite to open

649

the door for opportunity as a direct

answer to your question to certain norms.

650

The normals in the Department of Defense

is to get a program of record, which is

651

the goal of every single defense tech

vendor, whether you're super big or super

652

small, you're chasing these programs.

653

On average, the system wants

you to take and 8 to 10 years.

654

8 to 10 years in general, if you

follow the rules of requirement is

655

written, goes through his congressional

appropriations, gets an RFP.

656

Gets on the street and then the first one

that comes in, that's the way the system

657

is supposed to work broadly speaking.

658

And I should not mention the names of

the companies because I have insider

659

information on exactly how long my fellow

founders have taken the absolute top

660

tier 4 or 5 years before they get from.

661

I have a product and have a program of

record that is funding that product.

662

So the appetite and by the

way, every single case, some

663

amount of lobbying was required.

664

So, the venture capital community

does not want 4 or 5 years to get a

665

massive ARR, annual recurring revenue

rate of return on investment for their

666

check, but that's the way the best

of the best in class can achieve it.

667

So, there is a fundamental gap in the,

the, the venture, most venture models.

668

And what the best of the best can

do in defense tech, that is, uh,

669

that window is closing in a better

way, I guess, because folks like

670

Alice have SPDR, which is creative,

nontraditional form of investment.

671

Um, there's a lot of reasons why

the venture community is struggling

672

with that, but that that's a.

673

You know, I'm not prescribing a

solution, just describing the market.

674

That is what everyone needs

to go into with open eyes and

675

a clear set of expectations.

676

If they are to succeed, one final

point about the program record that

677

may demystify it for folks that

are relatively new to the space.

678

This was actually given

to me by another investor.

679

So, you know, I may, I have some

fun making fun of them, but they do

680

teach me a few things along the way.

681

You got to have to think

of it as a FDA approval.

682

If you have a new drug that can

cure cancer until it's FDA approved,

683

good luck selling it in a pharmacy.

684

It's not going to happen.

685

Right?

686

And you have to kind of think in that

model of all defense tech is kind of

687

in this experimentation mode of, yeah,

it may save a life, but I don't believe

688

it until Congress tells me to do it.

689

And once that program of record, the

analogous FDA approval comes in, that's

690

when it starts to really go out and scale.

691

And so I think if the biotech

industry, healthcare industries,

692

which I've worked in, took those,

they figure that out longer.

693

There's actually, there's a whole system

and an ecosystem around organizing around

694

what may be flawed, but at least there's

a transparent system, semi transparent

695

system of how to get to that level.

696

The defense industry doesn't

have that level of transparency.

697

And so most people don't know how

to go through that set of processes.

698

Uh, or think that you only

need a billionaire to be

699

a successful tech company.

700

You don't, but there, there aren't enough

like numbers in the space yet outside of

701

the, whatever, 25 or 50 founders or so of

us that are actually breaking through that

702

we need more of these stories to be told

so that others can start to imitate and

703

ultimately institutionalize this degree of

704

Tim Winkler: transformation.

705

Yeah.

706

And you know, once you've

gotten to that, that Holy grail,

707

like gotten on a contract.

708

Um, you know, it's, it's a lot smoother.

709

It's a little bit smoother to start

getting into, getting into other

710

areas because you've got a little bit

of a past performance and like the

711

importance of that, uh, Oh, it's bigger

712

Ian Kalin: than that.

713

It's like, it's almost illegal to

not give you the money at that point.

714

Yeah, I'm exaggerating, but not that much.

715

It's like, so you said contract is like

tears and levels is like the megas,

716

the billion dollar deals, which are

not weird by the way, which perhaps

717

should be, but it is, there's a

whole lot of billion dollar with a B.

718

Bravo billion dollar contracts out there

for a lot of interesting to attack that

719

they made, by the way, probably sucks.

720

I'll give you some examples of

those 2, but then, like, that, you

721

know, in the venture world, if you

told an investor, hey, I'm going to

722

get a billion dollar contract next

year, they would laugh you out of

723

the room and say, that's impossible.

724

And yet it's super common.

725

So there's this, like, misunderstanding

what I would call the Tam,

726

the total addressable market.

727

Most investors don't really believe it.

728

It's too good to be true.

729

Right?

730

Okay.

731

But you can get what, you know, a

classic stereotypical example of

732

something called a small business

innovation research grant or server.

733

You can get a million dollar

server as a, you know, 2, 2 folks

734

in a garage with a dog and, you

know, maybe have a great idea.

735

Those are, those are actually quite nice.

736

And that's a good program.

737

It's somewhat competitive and there's

abuse in it, but, you know, not terrible.

738

Um, so, like, that's fine,

but that's a million dollars.

739

If you went to whatever a dating app

company, good luck getting a million

740

dollars in revenue in your 1st,

6 months is virtually impossible.

741

Right?

742

Right.

743

So, like, that's where you say

the contract is like, well.

744

You can actually get a lot if you have

something that can help somebody in a

745

meaningful way and get to 25 million

dollars in annual revenue long before you

746

ever even think about a program of record.

747

They're just, that's a different,

you need to add three zeros to

748

the end of that forecast before

you start getting in that scale.

749

Tim Winkler: Yeah.

750

You know, have you, have you seen any like

more, like more recent, uh, you know, uh,

751

outlets beyond the traditional, like, for

example, I, I, I saw, you know, um, what's

752

the army's X Techs prime competition.

753

Yeah.

754

You know, now, is that something

that, you know, you wouldn't

755

have seen five years ago?

756

Have you seen more of like this

kind of shift towards like, You

757

know, these pitch events, right?

758

Like we're trying to be more open

to hearing and getting these,

759

the visibility of, of what kind

of technology is being built.

760

Um, have you seen more of that,

uh, from, you know, either of you?

761

Yeah, I

762

Ian Kalin: mean, well, I'm

curious about Paul's perspective.

763

Yes, and there's a lot of

good people out there that are

764

very, very well intentioned.

765

Again, they're trying to help.

766

They're trying to work

on the Valley of Death.

767

And I'm careful when I say this.

768

For most founders, I've

cautioned against it.

769

You may waste your time thinking that

they can do anything of great value.

770

That's not that the people, right?

771

I'm not trying, but the system

is set up to fail and no one's

772

telling the truth about it.

773

Because that money may be in 1 specific

instance, we were told, hey, great.

774

Congratulations on a small little project.

775

Now, you have to be subcontracted

to a giant firm who may or

776

may not take all of your data.

777

Hey, here's a server, but it's

not going to have any transition.

778

I never will.

779

Hey, here's a creative research and

development agreement with a really

780

high power organization, but they

don't have a dime to spend on it.

781

Really?

782

All they're trying to

do is get free labor.

783

All right, so there's a lot of well,

intentioned innovation theater, or

784

even just good old fashioned attempts.

785

That are increasing in quantity, but the

quality of those, I would not recommend

786

if I was ever a defense tech investor, I

would say, you know, maybe give it a try.

787

Maybe, but that is not the path to scale.

788

Avoid those.

789

If you can't.

790

Tim Winkler: Interesting.

791

Paul Benfield: Yeah, I mean,

they're, they're everywhere.

792

Um, they're down to individual units now,

you know, uh, 18, their 1 core for brag,

793

just, you know, put on a series of sharp

tanks and they have, uh, a program for.

794

Both outside, uh, industry, but

also internal, like they want, you

795

know, young soldiers, men and women

to like solve their own problems.

796

Hey, for, they'll give them grants to

go, uh, you know, solve these problems.

797

Uh, but I agree with Ian.

798

Um, they are, they all come in

a lot of different shapes and

799

sizes and flavors of quality.

800

And so.

801

Before you go all in on what sounds like

something that's a really good idea.

802

That's another benefit to some of these

outside advisors, you know, have someone

803

on your board who has done some of the

defense contracting would say, hey, look.

804

Uh, make up an acronym because you

can, like, if you give me 4 letters

805

in the alphabet, I can turn it

into a current innovation program.

806

App fit.

807

Uh, I mean, there's just,

808

Ian Kalin: yeah, there's so

809

Paul Benfield: many, yeah.

810

And you don't, there's no way for you to

know, unless you've got a little bit of

811

currency to say, Hey, actually that one

got there, their funding got cut last

812

year and they're on the way down or.

813

A DIU is going to get about a billion

dollars next year, which is great,

814

except, uh, they're going to focus

on high end war fighting stuff now

815

and no longer going to be that sort

of front door to Silicon Valley.

816

That's all very, very, very, uh,

um, theoretical, hypothetical,

817

Ian Kalin: theoretical,

818

Tim Winkler: but

819

Paul Benfield: I mean, that's the

kind of information you need before

820

you, you know, opportunity cost of

chasing one of these things down.

821

Tim Winkler: Yeah.

822

Yeah.

823

That's the

824

Mike Gruen: point.

825

Yeah.

826

So I wanted to pull on something a

little bit, because back when I was

827

doing, I've worked at several government

contracting, we had products and

828

whatever, um, the, the snake oil, I

think, is all around on all sides.

829

There's products that are trying

to be sold in the government

830

that can't really perform.

831

But there's all of these advisors,

a whole sea of people who tell you

832

they can help you Get your product

in to whatever name your, you know,

833

Department of Defense, whatever.

834

How do you vet those guys?

835

Like, how do you pick that partner?

836

How do you know that

these guys aren't just

837

Paul Benfield: blowing smoke?

838

Well, if they can get me, if they make any

guarantees, automatically kick them out.

839

It's the US government, right?

840

And also, if they give you a ridiculous

timeline, you know, Hey, you know, you can

841

start seeing revenue in a couple months.

842

Oh, yeah.

843

We can get you five servers in two months.

844

You know, I mean, this sounds terrible.

845

And if I were on the other side, if I

were the CFO of a company, I would want

846

quantifiable deliverables from an advisor

that I know I'm getting my money's worth.

847

What is my own return on investment?

848

Um, we are very cautious about

advisors that give a whole lot

849

of quantifiable deliverables.

850

Um, because even if it's well intentioned,

it becomes measures of performance

851

versus measures of effectiveness.

852

You know, oh, I got you to

see 17 people in the army.

853

Yeah, well, none of

them can write a check.

854

None of them have any authority to

move this program along the line.

855

So.

856

Um, it's tough.

857

I founders are, you know, startups

who are looking for advisors are at a

858

distinct disadvantage about finding the

snake old salesman in the in the advisor.

859

I think

860

Mike Gruen: 1 of the stories I had

was, um, I don't know exactly how we

861

managed to get a senator to write to

get an earmark for 1 of our things

862

and walking into that customer.

863

And the customer having zero interest in

talking to us, they're like, I don't know.

864

I just have to spend 2 million

on you guys, but I have better

865

things to do with my time.

866

So like, clearly this was like, great, we

got this 2 million, but it wasn't going

867

to, it wasn't going to lead anywhere.

868

And it was a lot like an opportunity

to cost probably, you know, in the

869

grand scheme of things wasn't worth it.

870

And God knows how much we spent to get

871

Tim Winkler: Well, let's, let's kind

of, you know, close up with a couple of,

872

a couple of questions specific to, you

know, what, you know, how, how do you

873

guys feel about, you know, the future

of, you know, where this is going?

874

Like, do you, how do you see the

landscape of tech startups and, and

875

the government train kind of evolving

over the next five to 10 years?

876

Because I will say that.

877

There are, there's, you know, we're

talking a lot about, you know, maybe

878

defense and national security, but there

are other areas to like, for example, I

879

think specific to, um, you know, we talked

to a lot of like space tech startups and

880

there's been a massive shift in, and I

guess the quickness that they're moving,

881

because for one, you know, they've been

able to, you know, launch You know,

882

rockets and satellites and and and quicker

fashion or reusable rockets, right?

883

And so there's been things that

have helped kind of move the needle.

884

And, you know, it's given, um, I

think companies that were primarily

885

commercial a little bit more of

this into interest and like, okay,

886

maybe we we have an angle here.

887

Um, where do you all see, yeah, where

do you all see this kind of marriage

888

between commercial and, um, and

government over the next five to 10 years?

889

It's a very broad question, but I'm just,

you know, is there some, some optimism?

890

Is there, you know, status

quo where, where do we sit?

891

So I guess,

892

Paul Benfield: I mean,

look, yes, there's optimism.

893

I mean, it's, it is.

894

And it's funny, like Ian said, you know,

everyone acknowledges this is a problem.

895

It's just not enough.

896

People are doing anything about it.

897

Well, I can tell you what I was

in there five or 10 years ago.

898

People were acknowledging

it was a problem.

899

So it's, it's progress.

900

It's insanely slow progress, but, um, I

also want to kind of a non sequitur, but

901

a quick caveat of all the we're dumping

on the bureaucracy of department of

902

defense, the fault is 99 percent Congress

who dictate word for word, how we buy

903

things and whether we can buy it or not.

904

And even when we say this is old and

obsolete, we don't want it anymore.

905

They just demand that we buy it anyway.

906

Um, But there are a lot of authorities

that exist right now to be more

907

proactive, to be more innovative.

908

Um, there's a lot of efforts, to Ian's

point, maybe we're, the pendulum is

909

swinging to too many innovation efforts

to where now it's more confusing,

910

but yes, I mean, I'm optimistic.

911

Uh, the, the writing is on the wall.

912

We're just not going fast enough.

913

Ian Kalin: Yeah, I would add, uh,

despite my rage at the bad actors, I've

914

never been more optimistic about the

Cambrian explosion of tech startups

915

that I'm seeing in the sector right now.

916

It's a really fun market to be in and

it does feel a little bit of like,

917

you know, the underdog, which is

part of the grid and character that's

918

ultimately required to even survive

on a daily basis in this market.

919

Um, but there are.

920

Milestones from a real macro, almost

economic perspective, and then I'll

921

give like a micro example on the

macro side, the asset class of defense

922

tech, uh, hasn't had a lot of success

stories beyond Palantir and SpaceX.

923

Then if you look at like 70 years

of history, there was whatever,

924

roughly 10 companies, Lockheed,

Boeing, General Atomics, whatever,

925

that like kind of dominated the

market were famously cautioned by

926

Eisenhower and his farewell address.

927

That basically, that, that oligopoly

stood where it was for a long time.

928

Until Palantir and SpaceX came in

and at least one famous example,

929

they sued the government, forcing

the government to buy from them.

930

That is a very billionaire move.

931

That was like, Rob.

932

Oh, sir.

933

I can't believe you got away with that.

934

Like, as soon as that happened,

other things started changing.

935

The law is quite literally changed

as referenced by some of the

936

acronyms that Paul was talking about.

937

And from these new organizations

and new, what are called contracting

938

vehicles in our sector, all these

new companies started showing up.

939

And that's like, Whatever 2nd,

3rd generation, I guess, um,

940

that have some famous names.

941

And so, in the earliest stages of

defense tech and new technologies,

942

everyone's basically watching a couple

of bigs, like and role, like shield.

943

I know the companies like it.

944

These later stage series, the series,

the startups primary example, if they

945

have a super easy IPO, then everyone's

going to lose their mind on our category.

946

If they get hit in their IPOs,

and it's a destructive down round.

947

A little bit of, I'm, I'm, I'm

not an investor, but, uh, similar

948

stories to what I loosely describe

as a consumer of the information.

949

Some of the struggles

that pounder had an IPO.

950

If whatever Hawkeye 360 all these

other companies, if they explode into

951

the asset class, well, guess what's

going to happen with a lot of success.

952

A lot more money is going

to flood that sector.

953

And companies like mine and dozens of

others are going to get interest that

954

right now we're fighting to even get

attention for because people fundamentally

955

think it's just too soon in most cases

to make transformative investments on

956

the buy side of new tech and on the

investment side of investing or spurring

957

some of the product level innovation.

958

So, uh, that I think that's

the watch in the next 5 years.

959

That's what to watch out for.

960

On a 10 year scale, we're

losing the arms race with China.

961

And when are people going

to be terrified about that?

962

Either it's a problem, it's an existential

threat, or it's not really a big deal.

963

The national security doctrine,

public policy, public statements

964

show very clearly where our nation is

focused and trying to encourage our

965

national security, build partnerships,

make safe, be responsible about it

966

and fundamentally bring an ethical

conduct into these operations.

967

Right now, we're my opinion.

968

Our nation is not a leader

in those technologies.

969

We are falling behind.

970

And again, everyone knows it.

971

They're just afraid to talk about it.

972

So then from a micro perspective,

what do we do about it?

973

You know, a very personal note in the end,

although I'm, you know, cautioning other

974

founders, be careful what you get offered.

975

Be careful about free labor.

976

Be careful of the opportunity cost.

977

That does not mean don't take and that

I have not benefited personally and

978

with my company from extraordinary

championship from, uh, American service

979

members who have taken a gamble, gone

the extra mile, you know, gone home to

980

their kids later that night, just so they

can file some paperwork on my company's

981

behalf, offer to create a, that may

provide me security clearance someday.

982

Like that's the stuff that

actually does make a difference.

983

And it can feel very bureaucratic,

but those individual Uh, champion

984

points are ultimately how you

push the ball down the field.

985

That's what makes it possible

for anything new to fundamentally

986

enter into the national service.

987

Tim Winkler: Yeah, it's well said.

988

And I can kind of speak to like, uh,

from a, a talent perspective, right?

989

I think this is, this is where we

spend a lot of our time is, you

990

know, we've, we've predominantly

been dabbling in the commercial

991

startup space, startups scale up.

992

And, um, you know, sadly, you know,

with the, you know, with the, the, the

993

financial downturn in the last year

and Silicon Valley bank having, you

994

know, their, their whole episode, um,

it's really put a, it's really put

995

a, uh, a wrench in the, in funding

across the commercial markets.

996

And so a lot of the

technologists now are, are.

997

Are are concerned with, you

know, stability and longevity.

998

So, they're actually looking for

opportunities that have some.

999

A little bit more of a, you know,

financial, you know, security.

00:48:53,075 --> 00:48:57,545

And so they are looking to more regulated

industries right now and we're seeing it.

00:48:57,575 --> 00:49:01,895

And so it would be just, you know, it's

just a shame to, you know, we want to

00:49:01,895 --> 00:49:05,184

make sure like we're not, we're, we're

taking the best of the best, some of the,

00:49:05,204 --> 00:49:09,395

the brightest engineers that are in our

country and putting them towards some

00:49:09,395 --> 00:49:11,315

of these most challenging projects and.

00:49:11,890 --> 00:49:14,990

You know, if we can cut some of this

red tape and I make it so difficult

00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,230

to make the connection, like, I think

that's what we're all trying to to get

00:49:18,230 --> 00:49:23,250

to, um, so, you know, for companies

that are out there like turbine one,

00:49:23,250 --> 00:49:27,680

I mean, it's fantastic opportunity

for, you know, some of these folks to.

00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,050

You know, find some, some footing

in a company that's kind of

00:49:31,050 --> 00:49:32,870

juggling both sides of the equation.

00:49:32,870 --> 00:49:33,690

Like I think these

00:49:33,690 --> 00:49:36,350

Ian Kalin: duels, but yeah, to

put it out there, we're hiring

00:49:36,470 --> 00:49:38,110

veterans and we're hiring engineers.

00:49:38,180 --> 00:49:41,760

So, you know, hopefully there's a way

for us to continue that conversation.

00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:43,160

If anyone's listening and is interested.

00:49:43,810 --> 00:49:46,439

Tim Winkler: Yeah, there's absolutely

engineers listening to that are probably

00:49:46,439 --> 00:49:50,200

interested and, and it, you know, just

to, to cap off that point, it's just

00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:54,830

like dual use startups, I think are

becoming really, really appealing.

00:49:55,170 --> 00:49:59,530

Because you can bounce back and forth

when one side's lagging a little bit.

00:49:59,810 --> 00:50:04,300

But, but, you know, again, I think this

conversation's around, how do you get

00:50:04,310 --> 00:50:07,220

that footing in, in that other sector?

00:50:07,230 --> 00:50:09,070

How do you get in that government space?

00:50:09,070 --> 00:50:12,569

And, you know, we, we'd love to

see more of that happening and

00:50:12,570 --> 00:50:15,900

more of that happening, you know,

with less, you know, bureaucracy.

00:50:15,950 --> 00:50:19,530

So, um, so that's all, all we've got.

00:50:19,590 --> 00:50:25,410

Um, we'll, we'll kind of transition real

quick here into our, our final segment.

00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,660

And just kind of wrap things up

with, uh, with the fun segment

00:50:29,660 --> 00:50:30,930

called the five second scramble.

00:50:30,930 --> 00:50:34,160

So I'm going to ask each of

you guys a series of questions.

00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:36,349

You've got to give me your

response within five seconds.

00:50:36,930 --> 00:50:40,410

Uh, a little rapid fire Q and a, if

you will, um, some business, some

00:50:40,410 --> 00:50:44,860

personal, you know, we won't air horn

you off if you don't, you know, if

00:50:44,919 --> 00:50:46,170

you, if you go over the five seconds.

00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,510

So, um, let's, uh, let's

go ahead and jump into it.

00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:53,730

We're gonna, we're gonna start with you

in, and then we'll get to you, Paul.

00:50:53,879 --> 00:50:55,320

Um, Ian, you're, you're ready for it.

00:50:57,950 --> 00:50:58,740

Okay, I'm ready.

00:50:59,090 --> 00:50:59,950

All right, let's do it.

00:51:00,300 --> 00:51:04,330

All right, explain, um, explain Turbine

One to me as if I were a five year old.

00:51:05,270 --> 00:51:07,020

We help people find what

they're looking for.

00:51:08,910 --> 00:51:12,900

Could you, uh, give me a description

of what your company culture is like?

00:51:14,130 --> 00:51:19,010

Ian Kalin: We have core values that

include, uh, embracing grits and

00:51:19,020 --> 00:51:20,419

celebrating veteran experience.

00:51:20,420 --> 00:51:21,329

What

00:51:22,510 --> 00:51:25,250

Tim Winkler: kind of technologists

thrives at Turbine One?

00:51:26,630 --> 00:51:27,720

Uh, the kind that

00:51:27,720 --> 00:51:30,640

Ian Kalin: are really, really excited

to hang out on a military base.

00:51:31,380 --> 00:51:34,960

And ask lots of questions about the

worst parts of people's days when

00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:35,880

they're trying to help our nation.

00:51:37,220 --> 00:51:39,620

Tim Winkler: What can folks

be most excited about over at

00:51:39,620 --> 00:51:41,920

00:51:43,650 --> 00:51:48,380

Ian Kalin: The overwhelming opportunities

we have to improve people's lives

00:51:48,530 --> 00:51:50,509

and help their work be safer.

00:51:52,769 --> 00:51:55,240

Tim Winkler: If you could have any

superpower, what would it be and why?

00:51:55,940 --> 00:51:56,630

Oh, God.

00:51:57,250 --> 00:51:57,310

Oh.

00:52:00,870 --> 00:52:02,300

Ian Kalin: No, I have three kids.

00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:04,850

So I think the press

comes up all the time.

00:52:05,290 --> 00:52:08,710

Uh, time travel to, uh,

00:52:10,210 --> 00:52:10,730

Tim Winkler: that's great.

00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:15,930

If you had to pick one, we'll

get different questions.

00:52:17,710 --> 00:52:18,539

Different questions.

00:52:19,085 --> 00:52:19,845

Okay.

00:52:20,525 --> 00:52:22,835

Paul Benfield: I was, I'll just

use my time travel to go first.

00:52:26,055 --> 00:52:27,425

Tim Winkler: That's

actually a great answer.

00:52:28,165 --> 00:52:33,865

Um if you had to pick one fast food joint

to establish as the first restaurant

00:52:33,865 --> 00:52:35,985

on Mars, which one would it be?

00:52:37,740 --> 00:52:40,240

Ian Kalin: peri chicken from Nando's.

00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,840

Uh, so I just think that would

build interstellar diplomacy.

00:52:47,380 --> 00:52:49,640

Tim Winkler: Yeah,

Nando's, uh, great plug.

00:52:49,819 --> 00:52:52,999

We're, we're, we're fishing for

a Nando's, uh, you know, sponsor.

00:52:53,229 --> 00:52:54,179

Ian Kalin: I think it's fast food.

00:52:54,179 --> 00:52:55,790

I actually don't know, but

it's like my favorite fast

00:52:55,900 --> 00:52:55,980

Tim Winkler: food.

00:52:56,029 --> 00:52:56,449

Okay.

00:52:56,560 --> 00:53:01,800

Yeah, yeah, that, that, that, that,

that'll, uh, solid choice of solid.

00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:02,710

Yeah, it's a good choice.

00:53:03,380 --> 00:53:08,540

Um, What's something that you like

to do, but you're not very good at?

00:53:09,730 --> 00:53:11,190

Ian Kalin: I don't think

i'm very good at anything.

00:53:11,260 --> 00:53:11,930

So music

00:53:13,740 --> 00:53:14,140

Tim Winkler: Okay.

00:53:15,270 --> 00:53:15,860

All right.

00:53:16,340 --> 00:53:19,500

Uh, what is a charity or a

corporate philanthropy that

00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:21,599

is near and dear to you blue

00:53:21,599 --> 00:53:25,079

Ian Kalin: bear school of music

San francisco where I live, uh, the

00:53:25,079 --> 00:53:27,839

extraordinary the original school of

rock an extraordinary set of teachers

00:53:28,039 --> 00:53:33,040

as authentic a quality superstar teacher

can be For this real, a real passion for

00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,650

improving people's lives in particular,

they bring music education to schools

00:53:36,650 --> 00:53:37,930

that have had their funding cut.

00:53:38,340 --> 00:53:41,559

They bring the instruments, they

bring the teachers, and I've seen

00:53:41,900 --> 00:53:45,790

very directly what it's like to give

a person who cannot afford a guitar.

00:53:46,410 --> 00:53:48,579

To give it to them in their hands

for the 1st time, and to see

00:53:48,589 --> 00:53:51,159

that teach them how to make some

music, it's, it's overwhelming.

00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:54,360

Uh, and I recommend everyone

consider a charity like that.

00:53:55,030 --> 00:53:55,920

Tim Winkler: No, it's fantastic.

00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,050

Yeah, we'll, we'll make sure to

plug that in the show notes and

00:53:59,050 --> 00:54:00,220

build some more awareness for that.

00:54:02,170 --> 00:54:04,440

All right, uh, closing out

last couple of questions.

00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:06,470

What's something that

you're very afraid of?

00:54:06,470 --> 00:54:06,959

Of

00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:10,460

Ian Kalin: Paul stealing my answer.

00:54:14,420 --> 00:54:15,640

Tim Winkler: Fair enough, yeah.

00:54:16,230 --> 00:54:18,566

The best jokes of Paul

traveling back and forth.

00:54:18,566 --> 00:54:20,649

It's a circle, it's like, I

got you, I got you, come back.

00:54:20,650 --> 00:54:21,600

I got you, Paul, I got you.

00:54:23,219 --> 00:54:26,760

And uh, we'll, we'll close it with who

is the greatest superhero of all time?

00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:29,750

Uh, my wife.

00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,650

Oh, wildcard answer.

00:54:32,710 --> 00:54:33,070

Nice.

00:54:33,690 --> 00:54:36,010

Ian Kalin: She is, uh, she's the

strongest person I've ever met.

00:54:36,430 --> 00:54:36,900

Tim Winkler: Awesome.

00:54:37,780 --> 00:54:38,230

All right.

00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:42,000

Well, you just earned yourself some,

some bonus points with the family.

00:54:42,730 --> 00:54:43,820

Uh, all right.

00:54:43,820 --> 00:54:44,340

Well done.

00:54:44,340 --> 00:54:45,590

We're going to switch it over.

00:54:45,630 --> 00:54:46,940

Um, Paul, are you ready?

00:54:47,690 --> 00:54:48,100

Paul Benfield: Yeah.

00:54:48,139 --> 00:54:49,300

Now I feel all the pressure.

00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:50,030

Tim Winkler: All right.

00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:50,940

Let's, let's do it.

00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:54,260

Uh, what is your favorite stage

of a startup to invest in?

00:54:56,530 --> 00:54:57,020

Uh,

00:54:58,629 --> 00:54:59,219

Paul Benfield: it's a good question.

00:54:59,219 --> 00:55:03,050

I, I, like A to B, I mean, and also

by the way, the stages have gotten

00:55:03,050 --> 00:55:06,605

kind of gotten muddled, but you know,

You got some traction and they're

00:55:06,865 --> 00:55:09,885

I really like when they are growing

the team because they've got some

00:55:09,885 --> 00:55:12,175

success and now it's about executing

00:55:12,175 --> 00:55:12,925

Tim Winkler: for the customer.

00:55:14,475 --> 00:55:16,645

What's your favorite part

of the culture at Palace?

00:55:18,455 --> 00:55:22,454

Paul Benfield: Uh, very flat,

very matrixed organization.

00:55:22,454 --> 00:55:24,324

There's no hierarchy

or anything like that.

00:55:24,365 --> 00:55:30,694

Um, everyone and one of our culture, uh,

uh, culture values is, uh, we do windows.

00:55:31,355 --> 00:55:33,005

Which I realize is a generational thing.

00:55:33,005 --> 00:55:35,125

Like a lot of other younger

folks don't know what that means.

00:55:35,135 --> 00:55:38,905

Like, no, like we clean when we're

willing to do anything for, for clients.

00:55:40,615 --> 00:55:41,035

Nice.

00:55:41,105 --> 00:55:43,625

I have one kid says we

jump out of windows.

00:55:44,465 --> 00:55:46,444

I like the motivation, but

that's not what we're going

00:55:46,445 --> 00:55:46,575

Tim Winkler: with.

00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:48,830

Yeah, that's a terrible value.

00:55:53,540 --> 00:55:57,110

What, uh, what technologies are

you most excited about investing

00:55:57,110 --> 00:55:58,329

in over the next 12 months?

00:55:59,620 --> 00:56:00,210

Oh,

00:56:00,270 --> 00:56:00,850

Paul Benfield: 12 months.

00:56:00,850 --> 00:56:01,410

That's tough.

00:56:01,509 --> 00:56:04,690

Um, uh, probably not in the rules.

00:56:04,750 --> 00:56:08,000

I'm gonna change your answer,

uh, or your question farther out.

00:56:08,110 --> 00:56:11,670

Uh, let's space logistics, you know,

I'm not, I'm less interested about

00:56:11,690 --> 00:56:15,480

another launch provider that's either

slightly better or slightly cheaper, but.

00:56:16,025 --> 00:56:18,965

You know, somewhere out there are

companies that are building the

00:56:19,145 --> 00:56:21,335

shovels for the space gold mine.

00:56:21,425 --> 00:56:22,275

Um, that's, that's

00:56:22,275 --> 00:56:22,955

Tim Winkler: what I'm interested in.

00:56:23,835 --> 00:56:24,865

Yeah, I like that.

00:56:25,725 --> 00:56:31,045

Um, what is, um, I'm sorry, who's

your biggest role model and,

00:56:31,045 --> 00:56:32,575

uh, why do they inspire you?

00:56:33,445 --> 00:56:34,525

Oh, uh,

00:56:36,195 --> 00:56:37,465

Paul Benfield: that's

impossible to answer.

00:56:37,465 --> 00:56:43,735

It's a conglomeration of a lot of senior

leaders that I've, uh, served alongside,

00:56:44,195 --> 00:56:51,014

um, from, uh, so when I was a brand new

second lieutenant, we got deployed to

00:56:51,015 --> 00:56:55,685

Iraq, um, even though I had time in the

army enlisted before I was overwhelmed

00:56:55,685 --> 00:56:59,755

as an infantry platoon leader, had a

first sergeant there who was one of my,

00:57:00,125 --> 00:57:02,085

you know, all time favorite mentors.

00:57:02,955 --> 00:57:07,125

And then I had in the same unit, a major

who was the battalion XO kind of took

00:57:07,125 --> 00:57:11,305

me under his wing and I got to serve

alongside people like Stan McChrystal

00:57:12,035 --> 00:57:17,915

and Admiral McRaven and I mean, just

crazy, crazy, uh, compelling leaders.

00:57:17,925 --> 00:57:22,585

So, conglomeration of a whole

bunch of people over a long career.

00:57:23,260 --> 00:57:23,930

Tim Winkler: Yeah, that's a load.

00:57:23,980 --> 00:57:24,910

That's a loaded question.

00:57:24,930 --> 00:57:25,520

It's a tough one.

00:57:25,830 --> 00:57:31,200

Um, what is a charity or corporate

philanthropy that's near and dear to you?

00:57:32,190 --> 00:57:33,680

Paul Benfield: So, two quick answers.

00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:36,590

One, the American Red Cross, just

because they've been a part of my

00:57:36,590 --> 00:57:39,849

life ever since I enlisted in the

army and saw what they did for

00:57:39,849 --> 00:57:41,269

service members all over the world.

00:57:41,719 --> 00:57:44,979

Um, and, uh, we were fortunate

enough to do some work with them,

00:57:45,039 --> 00:57:46,680

uh, at palace a few years ago.

00:57:46,990 --> 00:57:50,330

So, just, I know it's a big

kind of corporate philanthropy,

00:57:50,330 --> 00:57:52,390

but, uh, super huge fan.

00:57:52,825 --> 00:57:56,825

And another one I'd be shot at work if

I didn't bring up palace foundation.

00:57:57,235 --> 00:57:59,525

Um, we have a 501 c3.

00:57:59,525 --> 00:58:02,485

It's about the next generation of

national security professionals.

00:58:03,265 --> 00:58:08,665

And we get, uh, generally grad students,

sometimes undergrad who are interested in

00:58:09,005 --> 00:58:12,905

what 90 percent of the time they're taking

international affairs and think they're

00:58:12,905 --> 00:58:14,125

going to go work in the State Department.

00:58:14,235 --> 00:58:17,085

And then we get them and say, Hey,

there's this, you know, defense tech.

00:58:17,530 --> 00:58:18,880

There's defense investing.

00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:21,890

There's also hard power defense

and the intelligence community.

00:58:22,350 --> 00:58:27,020

Um, and we get six or eight a

semester, actually pay them in D.

00:58:27,020 --> 00:58:27,260

C.

00:58:27,260 --> 00:58:28,870

isn't which is crazy as our fellows.

00:58:30,290 --> 00:58:35,420

And it's just fascinating every semester

to see the quality of young folks

00:58:35,420 --> 00:58:40,230