What doctoral degree is right for you?

I see you. On facebook, asking everyone what Doctoral program is best. I also see you confused about the difference between a DAOM program and a DACM program.

I invited Phil Settels on today to clear the air. In today’s episode we are going to talk about:

• The differences between the DAOM and DACM programs.
• Why the DAOM is considered the “pinnacle” degree.
• Reasons you may want to choose the DAOM if you are a new practitioner.
• Why the DACM even came about.
• What may or may not be in your best interest with regards to both programs.
• Phil gives a broad overview of the DAOM program at ACCHS.

Today’s Guest

PHIL SETTELS DAOM, LAC., Dean of Doctoral Studies at ACCHS

Phil Settels graduated from ACCHS in 2011. Early on in his engagement with Chinese Medicine, Phil had the opportunity to study with several amazing Shanghan Lun teachers, including Dr. Arnaud Verluys, Dr. Huang Huang and Dr. Suzanne Robidoux. Phil uses Classical Formulas almost exclusively in his own practice and in his teaching.

Phil was brought in to design the curriculum of the ACCHS DAOM program which started in 2017, and he is currently the Dean of Academics. This program was guided by the ideal of what would best serve clinicians while honoring both the roots of the medicine and its development over time, and empowering graduates to be stewards of Chinese Medicine. The program has a dual focus on Classical Chinese Herbalism as well as Orthopedics and Pain Management, with the goal that graduates have increased skill and confidence to treat any patient who walks through their door, whether their condition reflects an internal or a musculoskeletal dysfunction.

Resources

• PHIL’S CLINIC
• ACCHS DOCTORAL PROGRAM
• Jane Electronic Medical Records. Use this link to get your first month free!
• Follow AcuSprout on Instagram and Facebook

Mentioned in this episode:

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[00:00:11] Sure. Well, it's a pleasure to be here, Stacey. It's nice to see you again. And a little bit about me. I graduated from ACCHS in Oakland, California in 2011, I got licensed in early 2012 and right out of school, I was given an opportunity to, to help design a doctorate program at a ACCHS. This was very meaningful to me because as I was completing my MSTCM degree, I was thinking about doing some of the existing doctoral programs.

[00:01:03] So I would work on that at the school and at the same time teach classes once my three years had elapsed after graduation and at the same time be in clinic. So I had a lot of different hats that I would wear all related to Chinese medicine, the practice, the education, and the kind of curriculum development.

[00:01:21] So that's a little bit how I started. Yeah.

[00:01:50] And I say new was like, what? In the last five to seven years of a different doctoral program. So can we start by perhaps like explaining the differences because there's a difference between say like a DACM and a DAOM. Can you explain that?

old. So when we say new and we speak about the, the DACMS, and I think you're right, we go back probably in that five to seven year kind of category.

[00:02:50] Now, the DAOM was really introduced as a clinical doctorate. So the main goal of a DAOM was to increase a practitioner's knowledge, skills, and abilities in the practice of Chinese medicine.

[00:03:12] I don't know exactly. I I'm. I have a figure in my mind of around 2007, some of the very early schools, I know five branches had a DAOM, relatively early. I imagine PCOM, which was PCOM at the time, and now the name has changed, but Pacific college of Oriental medicine at the time I'm sure was among the first ACTCM I would imagine was among those first as well.

[00:03:39] And so this, this, this program we're looking at further in your clinical skills it seems like somewhere along the lines, there was this shift of trying to be integrative

[00:03:54] Yeah. Okay.

[00:04:12] It's a kind of case report or a very elaborated on case study where you take a certain topic and you present that topic through the actual clinical work with one or a small group of patients. But sometimes it's more about a

specific kind of theoretical topic like Zhang Zhongjing's use of formula elements within, within his formulas, et cetera, or so there's a fair bit of creativity in what those capstones look like.

[00:04:37] is for any student undertaking that clinical doctorate there is that

research component.

[00:04:43] So now can you explain this other doctoral program?

[00:05:15] And so in comparing ourselves with other fields, we might say we're at a disadvantage in the way we've structured our education. And in order to change our masters. From having a master's title to a doctorate title, what would we need to add to it? And so I think that line of reasoning really gave birth to this new kind of doctorate that, that what's now called the da cm.

[00:05:56] So it's their transition from the master's to the doctorate level. Now that terminology has been a little bit phased out F P D and transitional. I don't think we hear that as much anymore.

[00:06:37] So they had the term terminal degree or terminal doctorate, which sounds life threatening. It's a little ominous

[00:06:51] Absolutely. Yeah, that's a lot of G yeah. But the term terminal degree, just, it signifies that it's the end degree. It's the highest level of formal education we can get in Chinese medicine in the us. But a different term has been kind of coined at this point that has the same meaning, but just sounds a little less grave and like an illness and it's Pinnacle, degree.

[00:07:27] Pinnacle oh, right.

the same.

[00:07:54] what to look for? Upon entry into school. So all of this came about kind of like, as right as I was graduating. So I graduated in at the very end of 2017. And I know at that time OCOM where I graduated from, was entertaining. There were just restructuring everything. And they were trying to figure out how to bring in a D cm program as well, because OCOM has a pretty robust da om program.

stay for the da om, or whatever it was that was overwhelming. But now this is really there's a lot. And, what is the focus of the da cm versus the da, om.

[00:08:52] would say that broadly from the curriculums that I've looked at and it's been, it's been probably two, the three years since I've printed out the curriculums from all the different programs to just kind of see what courses are involved with a D a cm. Now, from the perspective of I'm gonna speak first from the perspective of the transitional doctorate, for those who already have a master's and are looking to then complete their D a cm and the, the terminology used by some of the schools is really like complete your doctorate degree, not undertake a doctorate degree.

[00:09:44] So it speaks to like, you've already really earned this. Just, just complete it. And the curriculums that I've seen did not really have courses that were involved in the theory like the foundations, the diagnosis, the practice of acupuncture or herbs. There was an assumption that you've already gotten that in your masters.

[00:10:26] wants to take on an acupuncture, graduate to work alongside other healthcare professionals.

their graduates, more hireable, as opposed to necessarily saying let's make them better clinicians.

[00:11:09] Is really interesting, cuz I also recall this because I remember the like the loaning, the what, what department do you call that in the schools? The, the student aid. Thank you. The student aid department was really getting evaluated at that time too, because they were really looking at where these low, where this loan.

[00:11:50] The da cm. I'm not interested in research to that extent. I'm not interested in those things per se. And yet I also, at that point was like really tired and not interested in losing more hair and getting fatter and older over a da home program. Like I was like, oh my God. Yeah, it just wasn't. So, but also knowing that the public.

[00:12:21] So that, that made it challenging for me too, because I was looking at wow. So the cost of a da om program, which I would rather get in the future anyway, cuz it's more interesting to me is more expensive than just knocking out this like a, like you said, you're, you're almost there, you know, and, and I've researched the length of these D a C a M programs and some of them are.

[00:13:13] I think it was at the time and was like knocked that out and was like, it was amazing. I hadn't even thought about that,

[00:13:24] yeah, her, her Jing was very intact at that point. [00:13:27] yeah, exactly.

[00:13:45] So if you say, what are the obstacles to a practitioner getting a new degree, another degree? I think those programs have done a really good job of trying to remove those obstacles, which makes them very, very appealing. The appeal might be more convenience rather than content matter at that point for a lot of these programs.

[00:14:20] Yeah, those are valid

my best full-hearted life, you know, like it's about the money, you know? [00:14:32] Yeah.

[00:14:50] Some of those programs are gonna be the launching point to get you to the next step of maybe being hired by like, is it the, I HHS? There's a, is it the NIHS? Do you know that national Institute for health and co. I'm gonna put that in the link you guys, because everybody really needs to pick up the emails from, and I think it is ni H H S but it's, it's a very large board that is trying to help push complimentary and alternative medicine into the mainstream based on research.

[00:15:36] I think you got us most of the way there, cuz it's part of the, part of the NIH and I believe at least a few years ago, but I believe maybe still the director I think is Helen Lavan. Who I might be mispronouncing her name, but she's been involved in acupuncture research for many years. She's like a fascia person.

[00:16:13] And I love yeah, we're taking a little bit of a segue, but I feel like this is a really important segue that if you, if you are interested in research and this, this literally may be a springboard for you to get in there and start doing some work to. You know, cuz I I've also seen like the opioid crisis lately.

[00:16:42] Yeah, that's a good point. [00:16:44] yeah.

[00:17:05] And I found it notable that every one of those testimonials touched on how it's beneficial to have the doctorate title, but none of those testimonials touched on what they learned in the program or how they benefited from, from the knowledge or skills that they'd learned. So it was much more in a sense pragmatic about how you present to the public and how you can interface with

other professionals and maybe do something like pursue a grant, for instance, like you're mentioning from the NIH and and it simply was not focused on clinical development and ability. So it's a different goal.

[00:17:58] And I think this is where a lot of practitioners and people coming into the field, get confused about what it's for. And it also can be the springboard for the da om program, you know, like what if you went ahead and got your D a cm got hired by a hospital, and now you're ready to like up your clinical game.

[00:18:24] And we have seen some people come into the, the C H S D and program, or engage with, with admissions who already have a D I cm. And they feel like they've done the, maybe the responsible thing of achieving the title they wanted, but still there's a little bit of that feeling like they didn't reach the clinical knowledge they were looking for.

[00:19:08] And no one would ever graduate from a bachelor's of medicine in China and say, I got it. Now I know Chinese medicine and I should open up my clinic and kick butt. Like they just wouldn't say that in China, there's a humility that comes with, you know, how they see their own professors and the history and the lineage of Chinese medicine.

[00:19:47] We graduate and we hang up our shingle and we start seeing patients and having confidence is a huge Bo to our clinics. You know, that comes across. When we, when we speak with our patients, when we market and promote ourselves, confidence is, is helpful. But I think balance with humility is also helpful. so I think someone coming out of school should not necessarily feel like, like they really, their master, they have mastery over this material and they should still be thinking about how to learn and get better. And they're gonna do their patients a favor by always increasing their own ability and becoming lifelong learners, which is one of the goals that ACOM kind of puts as a competency or a, a goal within these doctorate programs is that you really become a lifelong learner.

[00:20:47] Some people might have really a passion for a gynecology or fertility type medicine geriatrics, like healthy aging different specialization programs that are within the different DMS people, even if they already have a doctorate title might decide they really want to get better at that type of medicine.

[00:21:06] I think this so in that whole line of like, thinking that you just laid out this, the reason that I do what I do is cuz there's a gap when you graduate. Because, because we're not in China and the way that we're set up, that you either come out and you work for someone, or if you're lucky it, I mean, if you can find a job or you create your own clinic with which we are also very ill equipped to do the schools are.

first, anyway, how could you know how to run a business? And we're not really interested in that when we're in school.

[00:22:15] Right. But if you come out, if you don't have business chops, it doesn't matter if you have a da, om, you

[00:22:43] It sounds plausible or at least ballpark. So it's tough. Being an independent business owner in any field is tough. And we go through a medical schooling, not a how to set up a business and succeed as a business person schooling. So it's not surprising, but it also does point to that gap that you're talking about.

[00:23:21] So I see the conversations where a lot of times it's the schools that get the blame, where practitioners who are now in, in practice, they look back and they say, this is what was missing from our education and how come the schools don't do a better job of teaching this. But here's the kicker I've seen, literally every facet of our education be identified as the thing, the schools should have taught more.

what's the main thing the schools should have taught more of, but ultimately the school should have taught more of everything.

[00:24:23] Now we've got you know, our mandates for 50 CEU units, every two years kind of thing. Like that's something, but someone may pursue the EU. They're really passionate about don't acupuncture or, or some Korean acupuncture or, or classical herbalism or whatever, or whatever it is. But a lot of times people are gonna find as well.

[00:25:04] I like that you brought this up. I really like that you brought this up because I've also been thinking about this. Like I've taken classes since I've graduated. Lots of classes. But I don't memorize the material to the extent that I did when I was in school. And it just goes, you know, like I get really excited about it.

[00:26:00] They're better. Like, oh, I'm always chasing the rabbit. Like for me, [00:26:04] Yeah.

so there's this, and I know not everybody's competitive and I know that's a dirty word to some generational people.

[00:26:24] think there's a benefit to competitiveness and we could flip it and say there's a benefit to kind of cooperativeness or just collectivism, but either way, whichever way we have that kind of bent of what motivates us community provides it and being alone, doesn't provide it.

[00:26:42] when we graduate, you.

[00:26:48] It becomes pretty isolating pretty quickly. [00:26:50] Yes.

[00:27:03] what other your

[00:27:04] is?

[00:27:10] And when we had our DM start in 2017 at ACC HS immediately, one of the big pieces of feedback that came back for what was really gratifying for the people coming in was that they've reconnected with colleagues. And they felt like having that community again was such a benefit to them personally, as well as professionally.

[00:27:52] So when you learn something together, it's more likely to kind of get integrated because you're chatting about it versus you just learn it alone, online, or even in a classroom, and then come back to your clinic. And like you said, it's in one year and out the other, it doesn't necessarily change the way you practice.

[00:28:26] Unless all you do the following two to three weeks is just simply that technique. In which case it'll go in a little deeper, but it's it's Yeah. So the D O M brings a certain level of community and accountability.

[00:28:49] it is it's main goal is primarily that your clinic, your practice is different because of what you've learned that you integrate in a clinical context, the things you learn in a didactic class, which is so different than most cus is very different than a D a cm.

[00:29:29] And by and large, it was unanimous for us that our, our graduates were practicing differently and at a higher level, based on what they'd learned. And back when I was a prospective students for DMS in, in 20 11, 20 12, and I was thinking about other programs, I had friends and colleagues who were doing those other programs, but their own clinical practice wasn't changing the way they selected points.

[00:30:08] Yeah, I think it's a, you know, for me, I have this habit of chasing the bright and shiny, you know, like the next bright and shiny topic. Ridiculous. How can I exhaust this next bright and shiny topic? And then I move on to the next topic, right? It's I hadn't really thought about it this way, but I, what I have thought about a lot, and it's also that gap.

[00:30:54] And. Of course it's a transition. So there should be like some feelings of like big insecurity in this transition and trying to find your way. But some of the things that are really integral to, to continued confident practice development are confidence is support is one of the things that we have to, that that happens so quickly that I think nobody really talks about is.

[00:31:39] You can't fight that. And Y somebody's telling you how to do everything. And then all of a sudden. You have a million decisions to make in a million different directions and your money, your life, your family, your everything's kind of on the line and you have zero. There is nobody holding up a hoop, nobody telling you how to get through them.

[00:32:54] And it was exhausting. It would've been just nice to be like, Hey, senior practitioner or Hey classroom full of Dao people. Like, what do you think about this? And have that support. It was really

[00:33:06] I think that's very real that that gap that you've identified and that you're dedicating yourself to, to filling is very real. And you're certainly, I know with confidence, you're not alone in having felt that. And like you say, nervousness is appropriate. It's a big transition. You go from a certain level of, of guidance to, to really none very quickly.

[00:33:50] You know, the vast majority are gonna start gradually and build up gradually. And hopefully within a few years, they've got that very full schedule. Circling back to do a D a doctorate degree. When someone already has a very full schedule, as well as the, you know, other life commitments and everything is I think probably more challenging for most people than engaging in a DM within the first few years when they're not fully booked out, you know, two, three months in advance, et cetera.

[00:34:41] And suddenly the next week it is. So the stakes feel really high. If you only have a handful of patients you really wanna do right by them. So like

you said, you would spend hours researching the herbal formula you were crafting, and someone could do the same with their acupuncture point prescription and they might not have anyone to turn.

[00:35:00] really forge really close connection with their previous teachers and feel they could reach out to them without imposing. So that time, I think one of the big things with the DM is like our students within a few months of, of engaging in the program would have these classes with say Anthony V mule for orthopedic acupuncture.

[00:35:40] And when results are better in someone's first few weeks, or first few months of practice, then the patient starts to refer. And it's a really great way to build up a practice is to have that confidence and that competence in your clinical ability. That goes beyond what we learned in our masters. so it's, I think a, a DM is actually, it doesn't slow down building a practice.

[00:36:13] it is a bit of a gap filler, for sure. Yeah. So. Yeah, you just sort of blew my mind. I hadn't. I mean, I really hadn't. I hadn't thought about it because honestly, so once again, saying like from the position where I was like, I graduated in my mid forties and I was whooped, you know, like. And I looked at the doctoral program and I wanted to do, and you know, I even like, I, I applied to a C, C HS too.

[00:36:57] yeah. And I do remember speaking with you back then and I, because I'm a teacher as well in the master's program. And I have, I think, good

relationships with a lot of our master students. I know the state that people are in when they graduate and it's a depleted state, you know, most people are really ready to just sleep for six months.

[00:37:34] But we're kind of institutionalized and it's the nature of a master's degree. We. We're all adults when we take this program, but we're treated a little bit like children with attendance and very firm timelines for assignments and this and that. And by and large, I think within a doctorate degree, there's a, a recognition that this person's an adult they're licensed.

[00:38:14] The feeling is really different. And I think the feeling is not quite as likely to lead to something like burnout or exhaustion. I think for a lot of people, the actual learning in the da O M can be invigorating and instill enthusiasm. Whereas a lot of the learning towards the end of our master's degree is it's like you're at the end of a marathon, you're slugging through it.

[00:38:46] Yeah,

[00:38:47] it's fascinating because when I started Chinese medical school, I was so excited to be with my people of, you know, the collective weirdos and misfits and smart nerds and all of it. Like all of it put together, it just felt so good to finally be in a space where you could settle in a little bit. The, I thought that it was really fun to be studying something that, or studying with other people who wanted to be in the room.

[00:39:38] And they were just like teenagers messing around in high school. It was so hard. Not only that I didn't wanna be there either. Let's just be

[00:39:49] go back and take that? I mean, it's interesting, but it's really not where I wanted to be for the summer. So anyway let's briefly talk about how COVID changed the doctoral programs and what that looks like now, because originally you had to, with the doc with the da om programs, you have to be on campus.

[00:40:15] I think that's a very good question is very timely. The programs have evolved a great deal within a very short time because of

[00:40:42] And we'd figure out how to, to accomplish clinic and, you know, try to create clinical intensive that last, maybe several weeks at a time where a lot of hours can be hammered out. It was a very difficult degree to pursue if it wasn't local. And one of our teachers in, in our own D om, Dr. Henry McCann, he got his D O M at OCOM when he lived on the east coast.

[00:41:15] I worked in the clinic for the doctoral on Sundays for the doctoral program. Like I was their little receptionist or whatever and, and yeah, they, they. It was, that's why I think that maybe that shaped my perspective of, oh,

hell no, not right now, because these were people just like you said, who were running their busy clinics.

[00:41:50] of four days.

and I'm even on the west coast, but it's still a bit of like, Oakland's not that easy.

[00:42:08] Yeah. No, I think that's right. And you, you echo what a big commitment that was for those people who were doing that kind of travel and the, the pandemic, you know, one of the positive things that arises out of it is we've figured out that we can do a lot more things online than we gave ourselves credit for before.

[00:42:54] And that the minimums they had previously set might not apply anymore in a feasible way in this world now. So they've reopened this process to apply for distance education, and there are newer regulations and rules about how many, how many hours, what percentage of the program can be offered in that way?

[00:44:00] flexibility in completing the program from a distance with greatly cutting down on how much travel is necessary.

[00:44:21] But on the flip side, you are still offering classes in on campus. Yes.

[00:44:50] Versus if it's a class about historical schools of Chinese medicine or, or herbal practice that can very easily be done via distance education online, you don't give up anything. You don't lose anything in that transmission.

[00:45:31] I feel so fortunate to have gone there and gotten my master's there. I feel like it was a really robust and in depth and really honestly hard and to the point but where, where its weaknesses are, you pick that up and run with it. So I would say that. OCOM since I'm on the topic. Sorry guys. Cuz I'm you may be curious.

perhaps the class, the classics are a little weaker especially compared to the local and UNM.

[00:46:40] You don't have to name them if you don't want to, but maybe what makes your program stand out?

[00:46:45] you for those kind words. I'd first like to say, I'd, I'd like to give a shout out in a sense and props to just all of those, my colleagues in those schools who continue to have a DM program, OCOM, you've mentioned five branches Yoan emperors among others. These schools that continue to offer again, that pinnacle degree in Chinese medicine when it's not the most easy or lucrative program to offer.

[00:47:33] If the main goal is the, the title, then a da om, is, is a harder way to to engage as a student, but also a harder program to teach as an administration than to offer. So those schools that continue to offer a DM, I think they're doing it out of passion for, for education in Chinese medicine. And I really want to just commend all of those individuals involved in those programs and those schools still doing that And then,

[00:48:02] and then the schools themselves have different cultures and their programs have different areas of specialization and I can say that, you know, my main motivation at ACC H S was, again, I was given kind of cart Bloche to, to

envision a program from the ground up and largely it was about what are those things clinically that I'm most inspired by?

[00:48:44] Huong in China, Dr. Suu at this point teaching internationally, just, we have so many really good teachers and programs for classical herbalism that in my mind, the idea of cutting up our patient population into disease categories or into demographics and saying, I wanna specialize with this subset of the patient population.

[00:49:25] And in my mind, the, the cohesive system within Chinese medicine that, that largely fulfills that is, is classical herbalism, which basically means Jean Jon J's work.

[00:49:37] And I think there's a lot more resources that we have to really dive very deeply into the Shanghai learn than to say the PWA learn or, or when being or other historical schools or movements within Chinese medicine.

[00:50:13] I think it's much easier for them to understand what was he thinking? Why did he do this? Why did he omit that herb or include this herb, et cetera. So from an herbal perspective, I thought that allows our students to treat

everything and everybody and then. From a pain perspective, cuz so many of our patients do come in with that chief complaint of pain.

[00:50:57] But then we've also got Dr. Henry McCann to do 60 hours of Don acupuncture. We've got a few other systems that are gonna use more traditional channel theory of, of balancing and tissue correspondence, channel correspondence. So students will get both distal and local and know when to use one or the other or how to combine both.

[00:51:30] and that's why, I don't know. I still, you just made me like hungry. The chocolate chip cookie again.

[00:51:45] Well, I think we've we've addressed our topic pretty well today. I would like just to invite anyone out there who is curious, like to know more about, again, these distinctions between the different programs in general or anything about the ACC H S program specifically. Absolutely. Feel free to get in touch.

[00:52:11] Great. We'll put that in the show notes for you guys. So you'll know how to get in touch with Phil. Thanks again so much, Phil. I really appreciate you coming on and taking the time to do this.

[00:52:31] So thanks. Appreciate you.