On this latest episode, WWIA Founder and CEO, John McDaniel welcomes back our longstanding friend, supporter, event Host, and WWIA’s Science advisor, Dr. Keith Tidball.

With over 25 years of experience in the natural resources and conservation field, Keith currently serves as the Executive Director at Outdoors Tomorrow Foundation, leveraging his expertise in executive-level management, social science, wildlife and outdoor education, and organizational leadership to execute the organization's mission of promoting outdoor education and conservation.

His work focuses on cultivating programs and initiatives that inspire citizen conservationists and foster a sustainable land ethic, with a particular emphasis on hunting and fishing as timeless pathways to environmental stewardship.

As an academic (Emeritus), Dr. Tidball’s research and applied scholarship explore the intersection of natural resource management, human dimensions of conservation, and resilience in the face of rapid change, trauma, and conflict.

Drawing on a multidisciplinary background that includes cultural anthropology, disturbance ecology, and environmental psychology, he often collaborates with diverse stakeholders to enhance recovery and resilience through outdoor recreation.

Aside from contributing invaluable research and insights as WWIA’s Science Advisor, Dr. Tidball and his wife Moira--in conjunction with the Kuneytown Sportsmen’s Club--have proudly hosted WWIA’s Kuneytown FLX Ducks and Bucks Hunt in beautiful Seneca Falls, NY for the past 12 years. This is a wonderful episode that we know you’re going to enjoy.

Takeaways:

• The central mission of the Wounded Warriors in Action Foundation is to bring honor, connection, and healing to combat-wounded veterans, particularly those who have received the Purple Heart.
• Dr. Keith Tidball's extensive experience in conservation emphasizes the therapeutic benefits of outdoor activities for veterans, promoting resilience and recovery through nature.
• The recent survey data indicates that a significant percentage of veterans felt less isolated and more connected after participating in outdoor events organized by WWIA.
• Recognizing the importance of community involvement, the podcast highlights how local hosts contribute to the success of the events, fostering lasting relationships with veterans.
• The discussion underscores the need for educational programs that connect youth with the outdoors, aiming to instill a sense of environmental stewardship from an early age.
• The dialogue reveals a profound understanding of trauma and its effects on veterans, demonstrating how intentional outdoor activities can serve as a remedy for psychological challenges.

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• Wounded Warriors in Action
• Outdoors Tomorrow Foundation
• Safari Club International
• Cornell University
• Field and Stream

Foreign.

Hello and welcome to the WWIA Podcast. We're honored to have you join us in our mission to bring honor, connection and healing to America's combat wounded Purple Heart heroes.

If this is your first time listening to this podcast, we welcome you if you're a returning listener. Thanks for coming back.

Please be sure to tell others about our podcast and leave us a review if you're enjoying what you're hearing on this latest episode. Episode WWIA founder and CEO John McDaniel welcomes back our long standing friend, supporter, event host and WWIA Science Advisor, Dr. Keith Tidball.

With over 25 years of experience in the natural resources and conservation field, Keith currently serves as the Executive Director at Outdoors Tomorrow foundation.

Leveraging his expertise in executive level management, social science, wildlife and outdoor education and organizational leadership to execute the organization's mission of promoting outdoor education and conservation.

His work focuses on cultivating programs and initiatives that inspire citizen conservationists and foster a sustainable land ethic with a particular emphasis on hunting and fishing as timeless pathways to environmental stewardship.

As an academic emeritus, Dr. Tedbolt's research and applied scholarship explore the intersection of natural resource management, human dimensions of conservation, and resilience in the face of rapid change, trauma and conflict.

Drawing on a multidisciplinary background that includes cultural anthropology, disturbance ecology and environmental psychology, he often collaborates with diverse stakeholders to enhance recovery and resilience through outdoor recreation.

Aside from contributing invaluable research and insights as WWIA's science advisor, Dr. Tedball and his wife Moira, in conjunction with the Kuneytown Sportsman Club, have proudly hosted WWIA's Kuneytown FLX Ducks and Bucks Hunt in beautiful Seneca Falls, New York for the past 12 years. This is a wonderful episode that we know you're going to enjoy, so let's go ahead and join the conversation with John and Keith right now.

Hi, I'm John McDaniel, founder and CEO of the Wounded warriors in Action Foundation. And this is our podcast Honor Connect, Heal. So you probably already heard the introduction. I've got Keith Tidball with me. Hi Keith.

Welcome to the program, buddy.

Hey John, great to be with you. It's been a little while since I've been on your podcast. I think I was with Dixon Gunther last time around. It's nice to see you again here in this.

Yeah. And where are you? Where are you physically right now?

I am physically in Seneca County, New York in the Finger Lakes, beautiful part of the world.

Here I have been. It's beautiful. You have a beautiful farm, man.

Thank you. And that's where I am. I'm. I'm at that farm for just a.

Minute before you take off. You know, look, we can see each other because we've got this through the magic power of technology.

It's like a zoom call, but it's being recorded for a podcast.

But Keith's got the big stove behind him and all his, you know, books and dead things and trophies and plaques all over the place in his little man cave. It's pretty cool looking.

A lot of work has happened in here over. I've been in this place 25 years now. Did my PhD dissertation here, right there in that building. This building.

And a lot of the research that we've done with. Together with Wounded warriors in Action has, you know, been crunching the data right here in the bat case.

That's cool, man. The bat cave. Yeah. So, you know, let's just paint the picture, man. I mean, I admire your work.

I came rolling up there to, you know, up upstate New York, vicinity Rochester. I had the biggest F350, you know, JR Reisdorf, Jim Reisdorf, had invited me up there to do a pheasant hunt at Whispering Pines.

So I'm there with a handful of heroes. We're. We're, you know, doing the upland bird thing. I got my dog. There's dogs everywhere.

And the next thing you know, I see you and there's a. I went, were they Boy Scouts or something like that? You were with.

That was Veterans Day, believe it or not.

Oh, my gosh. Wow.

We were doing our Sportsman's Club that now hosts for the 13 year. Yes, the Wounded warriors in Action event. It was our.

Our Sportsman's Club that was taking youth out, okay, Veterans Day to hunt pheasants with a couple of members, myself included, that are veterans, and had no idea we would meet up with Purple Heart heroes and, you know, Daniel and the whole bit. I mean, serendipity that has followed us all the way till today.

Yeah.

And you came over and said, I gotta know what you're doing, man, because this big truck's got our logo all over it. There's a. You know, our logo with the skull and the purple heart on it. You're like, I gotta know what you're doing.

You introduced yourself, we shook hands, and then we started to talk about, you know, our service. And come to find out you were an infantryman, and I'm an infantryman.

And so, yeah, we both love the outdoors in this country, and, man, we just hit it right off. And I got to thank you publicly for all the work that you've done, man. You really have championed this cause for us.

And we'll talk a little bit about the survey. I think we've been at it in one form or another for over six years.

But we, you know, Hero four a Day, it's, I'm sure on our website, and it's on probably, you know, YouTube as well. But the Field and Stream came and did this big thing, the whole community.

Phillips came out and, you know, you got a microphone stuck, you know, in your face, and you started talking about conservation and the wounded veterans we were serving and what the outdoor experience did for them and how it's part of our DNA and all of this. And I was like, wow, this guy's switched on, man. He's got, you know, he's got 100 pound head. And I need to.

I need to, you know, put my hook, my caboose to his brain and follow the train, man. And we just gotta, you know, we gotta. We gotta do some stuff together. And, boy, did we.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, interesting little bit of that history that you just described from Whispering Pines.

It was only about six months before that that I had decided that through other areas of my focus, my work is at Cornell, where I just retired from after 25 years.

Congratulations, by the way. That's a big one.

Thank you. Yeah, it was a great, great run there.

And the work that I was doing was about how interactions with the outdoors, time spent in nature can be not only therapeutic and healing, but also provide pathways or portals into conservation behaviors and into sort of building the. You know, as a Wisconsin guy, you'll know about this. Aldo Leopold's land ethic. How do we. How do we get into a 21st century land ethic?

And what I discovered was that it's trauma that really shakes off this sort of ecological, environmental, nature amnesia that I think most humans in the 21st century actually have.

And it's during the efforts to ameliorate the effects of trauma that we see the most progress on those therapeutic benefits of the outdoors, as well as reconnecting people to nature and developing those sort of conservation ethics. So I wanted to actually show that, to demonstrate that empirically. And I was literally thinking about what organizations are out there.

And there were a handful even back then, serving veterans. And I, I saw, like you said, I saw that truck and I saw those dudes. I'm like, those are freaking army guys.

You can see that from way across the field. I marched right over there and waited till you guys got done shooting some more pheasants and, you know, asked.

I was really interested in who you were, like, what. What is this organization? It. I think you look like the people I'm looking for.

That's right. Yeah, that, that's, that's, that's how it went, man. You know, and the data have helped us collect, of course, your work through Cornell.

We devised a series of questions by way of a survey. And I'll just tee it up. I mean, broadly, the questions were. We've been asking these heroes, and now we have close to 500 respondents.

It's actually probably over 500, but we're going to just keep going until the end of the year and make sure we have over 500. But that's scientifically important, that number, because I guess it's referred to as the N number.

I'm not a scientist like you, but when you have 500 data points plus, people really begin to look at this data and say, this is no kid in stock. This is scientific work. And so we devise these questions based.

I think a lot of it looks or mirrors some of the center for disease control, the CDC's protective factors regarding suicide ideology, you know, they're similar in shape and form. But tell us about that process, Keith. And then let's just talk a little bit about some of the highlights of the data, because it's really incredible.

And let me just say.

And I'll shut up and let you grab the mic, but, you know, I thought, I thought years ago, I thought, you know, nobody's really listening to what we're saying, right? And, and, and that this stuff works. You know, we talked about the magic. We talked about this. You know that. But they all were.

You gotta have some quantifiable data, something that people. You can roll up into a sharp point and stick in somebody's eye and go there, see it? You get. Now you see it. Okay, it's right there.

I thought it would change the world. It's not gonna change the world. Okay.

But what it does say empirically that what we're doing is having a very significant impact in the lives of the combat wounded veterans that we serve by way of honor, connect and heal and, and, and their exposure and engagement in, in outdoor space. So there I said it.

Yeah. Now to you, I, I can substantiate a fair amount of what you just said. And you're.

I think one of the first converts of what the data shows is those of you that have been running these programs and know intuitively and anecdotally exactly what the data actually shows. So it's no surprise to you that these data show this.

Still today, relative, relative to the civilian population. Right.

General pops. And, and that number is even higher for women veterans amongst the general population.

That's crazy.

That's something to think about for future work. But what we were trying to change the narrative on was, look, we got to focus on the positives. We need an asset based approach here.

If we just focus on risk factors, all we're doing is wagging our finger at veterans. If we think about what are the positive asset based approaches here in terms of what are the protective factors, what are the good things that right.

All people can be doing to include veterans that protect them from mental health challenges and suicide ideation.

What's right with the spacecraft? You know, let's, let's focus on what's right with it.

Exactly.

Know what's wrong with it. And, and it's just better way of looking at it. Yep, you're right.

Build healthy. Build healthy habits.

That's right.

And so what I did was I went bullet by bullet through all of the risk factors that the CDC outlined for this particular area and try to create a conversion, especially in the realm of outdoor recreation. What would a, what would a, what would a. The mirror image, the negative image of that look like in terms of an asset based approach for a protective.

Such a good way of thinking about it.

And at the end of the day I appreciate that.

And at the end of the day it appeared that not only are we addressing some specific PTS oriented risk factors, we're also Addressing through the intentionally designed therapeutic outings that that Wounded warriors in Action conducts, we're also dealing with a whole host of other protective factors for other types of mental health challenges. And then the trick was, okay, well, let's just see what are the veterans showing up with, what's in their rucksack when they walk through the door.

And so that's what they do. They go through that survey and they say, here's what I. Here's what I'm showing up with. And it's not a, it's a multiple choice kind of thing.

They can select all that apply and it includes things like isolation and connectedness and of course, PTS symptoms or self reliance and self esteem and all these sorts of things that are in that.

Respector literature, by the way. Let me just say this. You know, it's been, you would think that, you know, the. I. Okay, I don't know, I hear this and I believe this to be true.

I don't think, I don't know that we have any data on it.

But the further away you get from the incident, okay, you know, the incident that occurred, the traumatic incident, whether that was in civilian world or in the field of combat, the further away you get from that.

You know, usually, generally, normally, usually the less severe your conditions are or your reaction to what happened, there's a healing process that time heals all wounds. But to me, it's been 20 years, by and large, since our general population and more so for the Vietnam veterans that we're still serving. Right.

And their data is in there too.

Sure.

Now we're almost 15, 20, in some cases, 20 years from that. But the data's still rolling in, you know, so it's, it's. I would be interested in seeing, you know, what kind of change over that period of time.

There has been. But that's probably another study. It's just that they're still saying at the end of the day, they're still saying they're affected by this.

Not only are they affected by it, but the data that we're collecting shows that the efficacy or the effect of, you know, participation in an intentionally designed therapeutic outing is not dissipating.

And so, you know, that that correlates with the reality that significant traumatic incidents, you know, traumatic stress Injuries are unfortunately character. Some large feedbacks, they continue, you know, a trigger will occur. It can be a relational trigger. It can be a situational trigger. It will occur.

And what it unfortunately does is it sets the whole thing all over again at start and creates similar sort of cascading effects that unfortunately, whatever ground you may have gained, you can lose that ground pretty quickly because of the sort of doom loop that occurs there without protective factors.

And that's why this work that we're doing with wounded warriors in action and the actual on the ground, relationship building and community, that's why that stuff is so important.

Because when that trigger does happen and when that feedback loop starts to go the wrong way and circulate into some of the problematic places, at least there are resources at that individual's disposal.

Those community relationships, the memories that they had on a wounded warriors in action outing, the friendships that they made both amongst their own peers, Purple Heart recipients and those community members, hosts and guides and all the rest that create that sort of safety net, if you will, and those protective factors, those buffers from allowing that feedback to take somebody to a place that is hard to come back from psychologically.

Not only did you devise the survey and implement it and correlate the data and get Cornell involved and help make sense of what this is and the meaning of it, you actually do this work, too. You have, you know, you have been doing. I don't know, are you on, like, year 15 or 16? I lost track.

I think it's 13 this year.

Okay, 13 this year coming up. But you've been hosting. You got your sportsman club, you know, engaged in this. You got motorcycle riders engaged in this.

It's not like you're not attached to it or connected to it, because you're embedded in it. Right?

That's right.

And I think that actually is an outgrowth of the original grant that I was able to get while working at Cornell in partnership with you, was to go watch, observe, and embed with your events all over.

Did that. You did that.

And I interviewed over 50 of your participants, and that's what actually helped me get to where we are now with this survey. But I also happened to see one of many models that I appreciated. One really struck me, and that was moan, which is this monster of an event, man.

It is. It is. It is something.

And I. I basically cherry Picked what I felt was doable to scale in our community from the MOCAN event, which really inspired me.

You know, you asked me, you said to that event, you go, you were watching it and like, I just remember looking at your eyes, you're looking at this thing and it. Mocan's the 800 pound gorilla, man. I mean it is and all perp, you know, from all aspects.

I don't care how you look at it, what angle your, your perspective is, it's, it's the 800 pound gorilla.

And you said to me during the, I want to say it was probably the evening event and at that time there was a big dinner going on and you looked at me afterwards or in the middle of it and said, is this the standard?

Yes.

Thought about it, I thought long and hard about it and I thought, geez, you know, if I say yeah, I honestly got, I remember this, I said, if I say yes to that, then that setting the bar really high, but you have to set the bar high, you know.

And I don't remember exactly what I said, but I probably gave it a little bit of a caveat by saying, you know, this is unlike anything else we have, but it does represent a model, you know, and a very high standard because they're touching all bases here.

Yeah. Yes. And since that time, I do believe it is right of you to preface that with a lot of caveats around smaller events versus bigger events.

You know, we've talked about this a lot over the years, but we, we don't run an 800 pound gorilla, but we try to emulate a lot of the ingredients. Yeah, we, we only have four people at our event rather than the number that MOCAN does.

But we, we like the deer, whitetail slash, waterfowl implications first today we like to have that celebratory banquet and fundraiser as a part of the event and a handful of other things that I, I watched firsthand from those great Americans over there, you know, Brian and all that gang doing, doing mocan.

Yeah, well, you got your wife involved, mo's involved, you're doing a culinary thing with them, you know, I mean, that's huge, man. I mean you, you're, yeah, you, you've you've done very well with that event. It, it's, it's, it's incredible.

Well, on the science side, the, the data that we collected just around the value of the food motivations and the, that's a published, scientific, peer reviewed journal article people can go get right now and has been cited a fair number of times. Because it tells the story of what that part of this feeds into this larger idea of that hunting hoop.

Yep.

That, that when I published that chapter in a book about wounded warriors in action, we talked about that. And the food is an important piece of that. The table.

Oh, yeah.

Or piece of that. And the celebration that comes at that table. So it's a full circle.

Yep.

Of protective factors that really help when somebody's falling into the, the negative feedback cycle that can be caused by.

Trigger the stories, you know, this, the memories, the indelible memories of that experience, the bonds that are being formed. Like, you know, if you ever hunted deer, and I've been hunting deer since, I, I don't even know. I'd have to go back and look.

I, I think my first year that I hunted deer, I think I was 14 when my dad left me. Actually I was doing it with a bow before then, but when I was my first rifle hunt, I think I was 14 when I killed my first deer.

Anybody who's done that, I don't care how old you are. And some of the other ones I'm sure I've forgotten about or I'd have to think real hard about.

But that first one, you never forget that, you know, that experience is not ever going to be forgotten. So it's an indelibly etched in your brain.

And we hope to try to supplant some of the bad memories with good memories and fill their rucksacks full of really that being the combat wounded, some really good experiences. And, and, and you're doing it, man. And so thank you to your, and your community and your extended family for doing what you're doing.

Because, you know, not only do you talk the talk, man, you guys walk the walk. And that's, that's really big. I mean, you're, you're a doer, you're a dirt digger, you know, just like me, still doing the work. Right.

And, and that's important.

It's one thing, you know, to sit there and pontificate great thoughts and crunch data and you know, and do, do the, do the, you know, the scientific work. I mean, it's, it's, it's rigorous and it's important, but you're not only doing that, you're also doing the work.

And, and that I think brings a great deal of credit and, and, and you know, respect. So thanks for, for all of that.

Well, it's my pleasure and honor. And as you know, I, I experienced some injuries of my own, you know, drug service and, you know, being Embedded.

As you said earlier, it's not just a topic of interest. It's not just a, you know, an object of scientific inquiry.

For me, I lived my own versions of, of being disconnected and low self esteem and all the things that came with, you know, the way my service included some pain and I learned by, by being involved in your events that, man, this stuff is working for me too. I mean, and it works for the community. I mean, it just.

All of the things that happen through these, what we've talked about as protective factors are excellent for those combat wounded veterans, but they are certainly good for everybody else involved too, right?

They are.

You know, and it revolves, it reveals a lot about the human condition, you know, and I don't know, there's just something, there's something to be said for as you've said many times, you know, sitting around a fire pit and talking about what happened that day, especially doing it among people who, you know, like and respect. And that's very, very important stuff. And that's what's going on basically every single time we do a mission.

Right.

And, and that's just part of the formula. You say, you know, what's the formula for Coke?

Well, you know, it's locked in a safe somewhere, but it, every time you open it up and taste it tastes like Coca Cola. You know, all of our events have a similar sort of mix as we've, We've, we've stumbled upon a formula that, that's actually working. It's not magic.

It takes a lot of work to put it together and a lot of resources to put it together. But it really starts with an act of, you know, I mean, I don't hate this.

I don't want to say, I hate to say it, but I mean, these hosts, it's an act of love, you know, why would they do it otherwise? They're volunteers.

They're opening their homes, their waterways, access to their property, their resources, all this stuff to welcome these combat wounded veterans that they do not know and you know, learn to, you know, you know, get to know them. Single one of these hosts is wanting to do it again before the event is over.

Yeah, I think there is some secret sauce, magic sort of thing. I mean, I have, as a result of this area being an area of study for me for 20 years now.

I've looked at and observed and evaluated many, many different programs that serve veterans, whether they're combat wounded or Purple Heart recipients or what have you. And they're all doing great work, but I don't know of Many examples of the, you know, I think it's especially that.

That community piece that you've built into this since the beginning, where there is a sense of ownership of the event by the community rather than. Rather than by a. By an outfitter or by a company that makes sporting gear.

This is owned by caring, compassionate communities that develop real relationships. And that's. That's how we humanize or rehumanize ourselves after traumatic events.

And hunting and fishing, which is what I consider a form of hunting, are the most ancient, most historically accurate versions of humanity that there are. That is us being most human for the entirety of our existence as a species hunted.

And it's only in the last blink of our historical history where we have stopped and where we have become increasingly disconnected from our own humanity, never mind the rest of nature. So it's a humanizing activity.

And the secret sauce, I think, you know, is in those relationships that are built by virtue of those communities that take this on and run those events.

Well, they become proud, and they should be. They should be proud of that, you know, and they're volunteering. And that's the huge piece of this. We're not paying them to do it.

And I didn't ask them to do it either. Every single one of them found us and said, I.

Somebody told me you were doing this, or I found it on the web or whatever the case was, you know, and they look at it and they go, you know, I think I want to be on that bus. I think I could do that. And then they sign up and we vet them, and we shape their ideas, and then we resource it and we're off and running.

But, you know, they're given their best effort, and some of them are veterans, and some of them are not veterans, but I would bet all of them have somebody in their family who wore a uniform if they didn't.

Yes. And also there are some that wished.

They were, oh, 100. And I hear that all the time, man.

That happens there, which is positive. I mean, that's a great way to deal with your own.

You're exactly right. And I say all the time to those guys and gals who say, you know, I never, you know, they pull me aside, you know, I never served.

And I said, listen, it's all good, man. Less than 1% of our society actually does that. They go, I know, but I, you know, instead of going to, you know, Vietnam, I did this, that, or that.

They go, listen, man, if you'd have gone to Vietnam, maybe you wouldn't have Come back now. You're not.

When it, what you're doing right now, helping these guys is more important than what you would have been doing in the jungles of Vietnam, I can tell you that. You know, and it's true.

Yeah, it is. And, and, and they're serving now.

Yes, and they're serving now. So before we cap. Put a cap on the, on the survey there and the. Do you have, Is there one or two pieces of data?

I don't mean to put you on the spot there, buddy, but one or two pieces of data that the survey results show that you think are remarkable.

Because some, if you look at the data, some of the, you know, they're in the 70 and 80 percentile ring of a positive response, which scientifically tells you, you know, you're onto something. I mean, we've talked. There's things in there about isolation, being feeling like more part of a team.

But, you know, which, what, what one or two pieces of data, when you look at the collective results, really kind of strike a chord with you as being, wow, that's significant stuff right there.

There's probably a handful of the, that that I find to be just unbelievably powerful results.

But I think the, the, the ones that are most remarkable to me, not only because of the, the specific question, will ask a question like, considering the way I felt before this event and how I feel now, do I feel more, less equally connected to my, my, the local community? And they'll, they'll answer that.

And overwhelmingly for all of the question survey, the answers will be that they feel somewhat or a lot more of something or if it's a negative symptom, they'll say I feel somewhat or a lot less of what I've been feeling before I came here and now I feel better. That's remarkable, generally speaking, across all of the survey questions. But the ones that I find really remarkable are where there's a str.

When we ask what did you show up with? What are the rocks in your rucksack in terms of, you know, things that are issues for you, and you just mentioned it.

The one that I think is the most important is I felt isolated from other people. Shows up as the second highest one of all of the. What is there 12 different things you can check the box on show up with? It's the second highest one.

The highest being what they showed up with.

You know, they came to the, they came to the event feeling like that they're number two. Most selected response was I feel isolated before this event. Or I have experience.

Yeah, right, exactly, John, that's it. I mean we asked prior to participating in this event, have you recently experienced any of the following?

Yeah.

Okay. And I feel isolated from other people is on that list. Didn't feel connected to other veterans, don't feel connected to the larger community.

Experiencing PTSD or PTS symptoms, can't rely on myself. Feel low self esteem, feel a loss of interest in participating in activities I used to enjoy.

Felt disconnected from nature or the outdoors and don't feel like I was part of a team or was lacking a sense of meaning and purpose. And the top three, number one is pts. Number two, basically it's a tie.

I felt isolated from other people and I felt a loss of interest in participating in activities I used to enjoy.

This is before they go on a WWI event, this is what they show up with. It rocks in the rucksack. Okay.

Through the door. Those three things are jumping off the page for us. Among over.

Okay, as problems. These are problems.

You got to be fixing those things. I mean, you got to be addressing those things.

And what, what I find in answer to your initial question is it's those three, or at least two of those three that we find like 90 to 95% of people who participate in a Wounded warriors in Action foundation event are going to report. At least I felt better, somewhat improved or vastly improved on two of those three that I just mentioned.

So what that means is when somebody gets the opportunity to answer a question later, like having participated in this event, I. What I think about how generally connected or isolated I feel now. I'm looking at some data here right now, just real quick.

It says I feel less isolated than before the event. Of the 500 people that have taken this, 375 of them have said that that's their answer. I feel less isolated than before the event.

Well, that's statistically important.

Very. I mean, I think.

And what it means generally speaking is we may not be, you know, doing something that you can put into a pill and say, take this and you won't have PTS symptoms anymore.

But what we are doing is for the top three things folks show up with, we are, we are, we are ameliorating and leaving those things in ways that allow protective factors to sink in, settle in and, and provide those folks with the tools they need through their participation in outdoor recreation to increase their health and well being. And so that's what stuck out to me the most, is those.

Those where or some extraordinary number when I consider my connection to other veterans which people complain about. And I don't feel connected to people. I'm out of the service of not wearing the uniform. Right.

I feel more connected to other veterans than I did before this event. 478 Out of 515 participants have said that's like 90.

That's. That's in the 90 percentile.

Exactly. It's. It's astounding. And these you don't see. I do a lot of survey work in. In this veterans area and in other areas, you don't see this kind of.

It's just phenomenal.

You know, what part of it probably is? I'm just guessing. Okay. But, you know, we're tribal. We're very tribal in nature. Right? Human beings are, like it or not, even.

There's tribes, tribes within tribes. And I give you the army as an example.

So the army is a big tribe, but inside of that tribe, you got airborne communities, you got mechanized communities. You've got, you know, Ranger communities, special operations, special Forces communities. And.

And no matter what, what tribe, quote unquote, you are in, when you were in the army or in the Marine Corps or any other service branch, when you got wounded, you. You in action, you received a Purple Heart. So that Purple Heart right there puts you in another tribe.

And a lot of these guys got wounded in the same unit when there was an incident, you know, bomb went off, you know, ambush happened. You know, four or five guys in that unit got wounded, and they all got evac'd, Most of them, those that made it.

And that bond, you know, was further forged. Now they're back on the block, and especially with the reserve units, because that's their home. National Guard reserve units.

They go back to their home station, which is really close to where they live, as you know. And now they share that, and they, hey, man, I just found out about this organization called wwia. You want to go on an event again?

Yeah, let's go, man. You know, sort of thing.

But there's a tribe within a tribe within a tribe, and it cuts across all boundaries, all service boundaries, all job boundaries. It doesn't matter. So you've got this cohort unit, if you will, or say unit. But they're coming together on these events, and it's special for them.

And I think that might also be a part of the strength. I'm sure it is, you know, part of the strength of the organization.

I absolutely agree. I mean, Sebastian Younger wrote that up in a book called Tribe on or Tribal. It's Tribe on On, On Homecoming and Belonging was the title of the book.

Yeah.

And you know, I, I used that work, that important work to little bit of this and what, what we, we see happening.

The survey data that I was describing earlier substantiates that there is this loss of, of, of, of sense of purpose, sense of place, sense of attachment, sense of belonging.

And when you are able to find to, to reignite that tribal connectedness by saying, here I am with a bunch of people that appreciate my military service and appreciate this hunting or, or angling or these outdoor pursuits, then you, you get a positive form of replacement.

You get a new tribe that's serving the purposes of what, some of those older tribes and includes the identifiers, the markers, the symbols of those tribes that you used to belong to. It may always belong to in some way. And it gets, it gets extenuated into this new tribal relationship.

And it is cool how with wounded warriors in action in particular. You know, the, the sort of little cohorts are 13 years in our event. They all, they all still talk each of those years also together. And they're.

And in our, our case, we make those folks lifetime members of our club.

Oh, that's cool.

At some point, they end up coming back through town on vacation, summer, and they meet up with people from different year classes.

Oh, so great.

Their tribe grows. Right?

See, that's the, that's another beauty. That's a beauty. That's where the community piece is.

You know, you talk to any of these hosts, hosts out there across the country, they all stay in contact with these guys, you know, and that's, that's, that's just huge. And it's not, it's. It's nothing as control. There's nothing controlled about it.

You know, the guy, one of your volunteers guided for this guy, they hit it off on the truck ride. The guy shot a deer. They, they had that experience together. Hey, man, are you on Facebook? Yeah. What's your. Okay. Click, click.

The next thing you know, you know, they're, they're texting each other, you know, a couple times a week just to see how you're doing. Now that's connectedness. You know, I, I didn't have anything to do with that. I mean, that's just.

You set the conditions and as a successful commander, you know what that is.

Yeah.

Setting the conditions for success and the connectedness is the objective.

Yeah, no, that's true.

Reduce the, the feelings of isolation.

That's right.

The partners that you've developed and you've got a network of hosts that is.

Best in the world, man.

It's amazing the work that all of those folks are doing.

I'm so proud of them. I just can't. I just can't even put. Put words to it.

Yeah, yeah. And then they're building those protective factors.

Yes, they are. And they don't even know it. You know, they're just doing it, like I said, out of love. They just want. They just want to go there.

They just want these guys to come to their, To. To. To their event and let their hair down and relax and just serve them right. And when you say thank you for.

In a unique way, what you did was appreciated. And we learned a lot from Vietnam. You know, it's still fresh today, this day, some 60 years later.

It's still fresh in our minds today that this country, by and large, didn't welcome those great Americans and heroes home properly. And we're making amends for it, you.

Know, as we should.

As we should.

And we should never forget those lessons either. I mean, we're going to be in a new batch of situations here in this, in this century.

Yeah.

And those are lessons that we need to remember not only in terms of how we welcome folks home as a, As a. As a military organization, but also as communities and where I think that Wounded warriors is shining a bright light on the right way to do it.

Yeah. Well, I appreciate you, man, and all that you've done. It's really remarkable. I do want to spend here in the closing moments of our chat. I do want to.

If you are wanting to talk about it, I know that you've recently changed gears. You got a new mission that you're focused on, and I'm sure you're very proud of it, as you should be. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?

I appreciate the opportunity to.

I mean, as I said earlier, I have been focused for my entire career on identifying and then in exploring pathways and portals for people into conservation behaviors, into this Leopold land ethic. And one of the ways that I've always cared a lot about is our youth and their increasing sort of problems with connectedness.

And a lot of things we just talked about among the veteran community. Young people are experiencing this in spades because of, you know, a wired or digital relationship to the world.

Richard Lou wrote a great book, some, some a decade ago now called Last Child in the woods, and it talks about, you know, what happens when our kids can't. Don't have a connection to nature. So I'm working now with an organization called the Outdoors Tomorrow foundation, whose.

Whose sole focus is to bring outdoor education and outdoor recreation into the schools, into the classrooms, directly through the physical education curriculum in every state in the country. We are a certified curriculum piece that can be taught in schools K through 12, and it works.

We're in over 2,000 schools right now, and we want to double that number here in the next year or two. And.

And my goal personally as the new executive director of the Outdoors Tomorrow foundation is to be in better than 50% of the school districts in the United States within five years. That's a big goal, but that's the goal.

Well, you know.

Wow.

Well, congratulations. Okay, that's executive director, man. That's. That's like the chief honcho, man. That's the chief cook and bottle wash dude. Right?

Yeah. It's where the. Where the buck stops and.

That's right. That's right.

All that comes with that.

But what you have to help me with, and everybody's listening to that, is how can we help you? I mean, if you want to get this into the schools, which I think I applaud is awesome, because kids think, you know, outdoors today.

They think going outside and playing soccer, that's about as close to the outdoors as a lot of these kids are getting today. And that's not the same thing as going into the woods. What can we. What can we do to help you?

Well, I would start with just getting familiar with the foundation. Safari Club International has taken a great interest in the foundation as it put a. Put some rocket fuel on this thing for us.

You can find [email protected] and the way to help.

I think that, you know, folks that are partnered with you, John, to do Wounded Words in Action could easily help me find schools that would like this, that would be interested in partnering with. With. With us to bring the program to their schools. And there's a role for veterans to give back to in this space. And I think there's a.

But there is an opportunity for us to think about how you could help the mission of the Outdoors Tomorrow Foundation.

Yeah, I want to talk to you more about that, because both my boys are in school, one is still in elementary school, and the Other is in middle school now, but they're in two different schools. Middle school would be. Just even get them in K through K through 8 is critical. I think you got to get to them before they get to high school.

By that time, I don't want to say it's lost, but, you know, you.

Got their opinions for sure by that.

Yeah, but. But I. Let's do that. That's. Let's do that at a. At a later date, you and I personally, because I just need to.

I. I need to know what those steps would be. You know, step one is okay to introduce this to the board, the school board. Maybe you do that through, you know, being part of the pta, Right?

You know, I'm part of the pta.

I mean, I could go to the pta, one of the PTA meetings and, and offer this up to the school board, you know, say, hey, you know, this is what this is. And I don't know, I mean, that's, that's what you got to do is you gotta. If you're gonna pioneer in a pathway, you gotta start somewhere, right? And.

And, you know, a little coaching, teaching and mentoring and, and what that pathway might be, I think would. A lot of people would. Would take you up on that.

I appreciate that and I appreciate you talking about how you might help. And I mean, I think just supporting the concept is hugely helpful.

We are all trying to build social acceptance for hunting and angling as part of our humanness, a part of ourselves. We do for conservation.

Well, of course I want to. I definitely do. You know, I grew up with it.

I grew up in the, you know, I didn't always grow up in the country, but, you know, by the time I guess I was in sixth grade, we had. My family had moved out to the country in Oshkosh, Wisconsin, and I had a chunk of woods across the street. My dad was a hunter. I became a hunter.

We fished, we were on the lake, all these things. But that was part of my lifestyle, man. I mean, I was doing that whenever I wasn't on a wrestling mat or a baseball field.

And today, you know, if the dad isn't into it, if he's not doing it with. Or he's not around, the chances are unless he's got a buddy that's doing it, you know, they're not going to get that chance.

He or she aren't going to get that chance. And that's. And that's maybe where the schools, you know, can, can. Can come in, you know.

Well, yes.

So you Got two young boys in school, and this is an important time for get, you know, messaging that is consistent with what they hear at home around the dinner table. And yeah, one of the big problems that we have is you don't get consistent messaging at school.

There's a, there's a different message about the importance of outdoor recreation in many cases. And, and like you say, you know, gym class, quote unquote, it's physical education.

That PE hour is often dodgeball and, you know, hopscotch or whatever else.

Not even outside.

Yeah.

And so why not have a curriculum in school that allows you to do not only, you know, outdoor recreation, sorts of things like orienteering, but also hunter education, the North American model of conservation, angling, you know, wildlife, all this stuff that is, it includes physical activity. The recipe generally is there are usually physical education instructors who are in charge of the curriculum selections for a given school district.

And if all we need, I've got an assistant director of education who is a great, a sort of marketing person. She is really good at, you know, give her a name and she'll call that person and explain what this is and provide them the material.

So the heavy lift is on, is on her. We just need the lead generation from, from you or others that are interested in, in exploring whether a school district would be interested in it.

And again, I think it's, it's.

It's important to recognize that, you know, the next generation of, of folks who are connected to nature and to conservation is what's really important here. And if they don't become hunters and anglers themselves, that's not a problem.

If they're accepting of this way of life for those of us who still want to pursue it, ultimately that's the goal.

I think it's admirable and I think there's a need for it. Yeah. Well, that's great, man. I'm super happy that you're working in another field that's related to something that's near and dear to your heart.

And certainly it involves education. It certainly involves the outdoors and conservation and youth. I mean, how can that go wrong?

Well, I mean, exactly.

If you're talking about something that we have learned, you and I together for the last years is healthy and well being, producing, and is something that goes missing for veterans. It goes missing that connectedness, that relationship with nature. And we realize that connecting is so important for our veterans.

Well, why wouldn't that be important for our young people too?

Well, it should be. And I think you, what you need, what we need to probably pursue here is this idea of getting veterans involved in that space.

Yes.

Because the veterans are great trainers and teachers because they've been subjected pretty much the whole career. They understand what right looks like regarding training and education. It's part of who we are and what we've become.

So it seems like a natural fit if you get the school district to say yes and then have a campaign that targets veterans as the instructors or facilitators or supporters of this program, Bam. You know, now you got something going there.

There's a lot there. I think that we should pursue that more. I mean, obviously, veterans did what they did.

They raised their right hand because of a deep sense of service and duty. And when they come back, they miss that and they're looking for ways to continue to contribute.

And, you know, they are great instructors, and they did what they did in many cases, so the next generation might prosper. So.

That's right.

Why not continue your service in this vein? You know, I think you're. Let's. Let's do this, John. Let's think about how we can connect.

Good. You know, that. That same line of thinking got us to. Got us in a lot of trouble, which led us to right here. We're not short on good ideas.

Retired before you in one way, although you retired before me. And, you know, in terms of military service, why not? We can kick these things around. Why not?

Exactly. Just add a little brown water and a fly rod, and now you're really gonna do some cooking, man.

Right. That's where all the good ideas come from. Right near that. That water and that brown water.

That's it. Well, listen, man, I gotta. I gotta say thanks again for all that you've done. You're a tremendous American. You.

You moved the needle on a lot of important stuff. And you've, you know, you've shown. Proven to be invaluable for the work that we do.

You've exposed the work that we're doing to a lot of people and to the scientific community and in your writings and the survey we've done. And like I say, you know, I knew it was in there. You know, I knew what was in the sauce. I didn't know really how to articulate it.

And you've helped us do that scientifically, brought to light the goodness of the work that we're doing. And I appreciate that because it's not been easy, and I didn't have the talent nor did I have the resource to do what you did.

So great thanks to you and Cornell University for supporting this work and we wish you all the best in your follow on pursuits here and I'm sure it's going to be great for you and I know there are. They're lucky to have you, I tell you that.

I appreciate that.

It's been my honor and privilege to, to work with wounded warriors in action and work with you directly, John, and be a, be a part of your vision and, and work under your leadership. So thanks for that opportunity and I look forward to continue.

I'm not going away, I'm not leaving, leaving wounded warriors in action or all the guys that I've gotten to know so well over these many years. So thanks for the opportunity, John.

Absolutely.

You know, and you're, we appreciate you and as you're a friend of mine and you're somebody that I look up to and I've learned a lot from and so I appreciate your leadership and friendship probably more importantly than anything, and your loyalty.

You're an amazing American and thank your wife too, Mo, for all her hard work and she's behind the scenes doing great stuff and we certainly appreciate that as well. So good luck this upcoming fall with your event and tell everybody there that I'm proud of them and very thankful for all their hard work.

I will do that. Thank you, John.

Okay, buddy, see you around.

Talking with you, but thanks. See you.

All right, bye.

Thank you for listening to the WWIA podcast.

To learn more about the Wounded warriors in Action foundation and how you can get involved, please visit our website at WWIAF or follow us on social media, on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn.

If you'd like to comment or offer feedback about our podcast or if you have a suggestion for a future episode, please email [email protected] thank you for your support and for helping us honor, connect and heal our combat wounded purple hearted heroes through the power of the great outdoors.