Artwork for podcast Qiological Podcast
058 A Research Scientist's View of the Pulse & Beauty • Martha Lucas
Episode 5811th November 2018 • Qiological Podcast • Michael Max
00:00:00 01:03:20

Shownotes

It’s easy to think there is one way to take the pulse, and natural to fall back on the habits that formed early on in our learning to attend to this vital aspect of diagnosis and prognosis.

Pulse is something our teachers help us to orient toward, but it is our experience and patients who help to understand and learn to trust what we feel.

In this episode we have a research scientist’s eye view of the pulse. And how outward beauty is an expression of inward strength and balance.

Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

Transcripts

Martha Lucas:

First of all, I went to a slippery and wirey school.

Martha Lucas:

Everybody was slippery and wiring and clinic maybe once in a while somebody

Martha Lucas:

would say, oh yeah, that's thin and wirey.

Martha Lucas:

Well, there's so much more than that.

Martha Lucas:

In fact, I tell my interns don't think about the quality.

Martha Lucas:

That's not what it's all about.

Martha Lucas:

It's about the flow through the Oregon systems.

Martha Lucas:

That's what good health is.

Martha Lucas:

It's the Tigie symbol.

Michael Max:

Hey, it's Michael.

Michael Max:

And this is qiological.

Michael Max:

I'm not sure why this topic comes up so often in my clinical conversations

Michael Max:

lately, but for some reason I've been reminding my patients about the wisdom

Michael Max:

from that great classic on enoughness.

Michael Max:

No, the one I'm talking about right.

Michael Max:

Goldilocks and the three bears, you might see this in your practice too.

Michael Max:

You know, there's the people that say load me up with needles as if

Michael Max:

Maura was glitter or they think they should be a certain way in life,

Michael Max:

but that's kind of like Goldilocks trying to sleep on too hard of a bad.

Michael Max:

They think they are too much of this or not enough of that.

Michael Max:

And what they miss is that there's this sweet spot of just enough.

Michael Max:

I'm not sure where you're listening from, but as American skis, we tend to think

Michael Max:

that more and better mean the same thing, unless it comes to weight or waistlines.

Michael Max:

When we tend to air in the other direction, the Buddhist tradition

Michael Max:

holds that we are generally either in a state of desire.

Michael Max:

I E gimme more or state of aversion.

Michael Max:

This is where we are reactively ruled by dislikes or third state, which is

Michael Max:

not caring or not noticing there's not much to react or attached to in that.

Michael Max:

I suspect there's another state of being, and it's the one that I call

Michael Max:

enoughness where things are just right.

Michael Max:

Not only just right, but unlike the state of not noticing, we actually do notice.

Michael Max:

We notice that we have enough.

Michael Max:

We notice that things have a rightness.

Michael Max:

We are attentive to the pools of desire and aversion per in a sorta state

Michael Max:

of grace where we are utterly fine with how things are in that moment.

Michael Max:

The world is enough and we are too.

Michael Max:

It's a bit rare in my experience.

Michael Max:

And especially in clinic, people often seem like they need to

Michael Max:

bring air quotes here, a problem.

Michael Max:

Otherwise there's no reason to go see the acupuncturist.

Michael Max:

Sometimes people need to be reminded that they're actually doing okay,

Michael Max:

that there are things working, right.

Michael Max:

Even in the midst of many things going wrong.

Michael Max:

This is not to take away from the problems.

Michael Max:

And at the same time, it's helpful to notice what resources are.

Michael Max:

Strengths.

Michael Max:

They actually have.

Michael Max:

I think it's helpful to notice enoughness when it shows up, try

Michael Max:

it out in your clinical work.

Michael Max:

I mean, after all, almost everyone knows about Goldilocks and the three bearers.

Michael Max:

Once again, I want to remind you all that.

Michael Max:

I love getting postcards from wherever you happen to be listening to qiological.

Michael Max:

You know, I sit here at this microphone at the moment.

Michael Max:

I'm looking out at fall colors, but it's hard to know who's on the other end.

Michael Max:

My voice is actually making it into your earbuds.

Michael Max:

So if you think about it, I'd love to get a postcard from where you are getting

Michael Max:

them every now and then in the mail.

Michael Max:

It makes my

Michael Max:

day.

Michael Max:

So keep those cards and letters coming from.

Michael Max:

Hey friends.

Michael Max:

Welcome back to qiological.

Michael Max:

My guest today is Martha Lucas.

Michael Max:

You may know of Martha.

Michael Max:

She does the maid cen may wrong.

Michael Max:

The made, send facial rejuvenation.

Michael Max:

In addition to that, she does a lot of work with pulse.

Michael Max:

Those are two really interesting subjects to get into.

Michael Max:

So, um, as with really everybody that I have on the show,

Michael Max:

delighted to have her here.

Michael Max:

Martha, welcome to qiological.

Michael Max:

Thank you.

Martha Lucas:

I'm happy to be here.

Martha Lucas:

I

Michael Max:

often start with folks acupuncture.

Michael Max:

You know, none of us grew up with this stuff.

Michael Max:

At least most of us didn't grow up with it.

Michael Max:

What is it that got your attention at some point that led

Michael Max:

you down this red brick road?

Martha Lucas:

I'm a research psychologist.

Martha Lucas:

So I started out my career in medicine, in Western medicine.

Martha Lucas:

I did research in hospitals.

Martha Lucas:

My specialty was heart disease.

Martha Lucas:

And what I studied was thoughts because we, in my training as a behaviorist,

Martha Lucas:

think of everything as a behavior.

Martha Lucas:

So what I was studying was how these, and it was men at the time perceive

Martha Lucas:

the cause of their heart disease.

Martha Lucas:

Did they think it was their behavior that they didn't eat right, or

Martha Lucas:

exercise or did they think it was just something like, oh, it was just fate.

Martha Lucas:

And then I studied how well they did in their rehab.

Martha Lucas:

But as I was working with them and realized their surgeons

Martha Lucas:

were great mechanics, I wondered what else is happening?

Martha Lucas:

What beside the mechanical device of the heart.

Martha Lucas:

Keep life going on.

Martha Lucas:

So I studied Reiki because I feel like that's kind of the mother of the

Martha Lucas:

laying on of hands medicine and went through several different kinds of

Martha Lucas:

classes, actually tonal alignment.

Martha Lucas:

Then I learned color puncture, which is acupuncture.

Martha Lucas:

Like you use acupuncture points, but you put color on them that you use a

Martha Lucas:

colored light with different colors, but the teachers didn't explain why you put

Martha Lucas:

red on LLI four and yellow on SP six, which is how I looked at it back then,

Martha Lucas:

because I was a research psychologist.

Martha Lucas:

I had knew nothing about Chinese medicine.

Martha Lucas:

So when you gave me a list of these points with a color, I'm a researcher.

Martha Lucas:

I want to know why

Michael Max:

we want to know why.

Michael Max:

Exactly which really, I mean, wouldn't any clinician want to know why.

Martha Lucas:

You would think so, but I seem to be the only one

Martha Lucas:

who kept raising my hand saying, why am I putting in green here?

Martha Lucas:

Why am I putting yellow there?

Martha Lucas:

And they would always say, because Dr.

Martha Lucas:

Mandell says so, well, I'm sorry, but in my practice, I

Martha Lucas:

can't say to a patient, oh, Dr.

Martha Lucas:

Lucas, why are you doing this?

Martha Lucas:

And I say, well, Akilah said, Dr.

Martha Lucas:

Mandel said, that will not cut the mustard.

Martha Lucas:

Right.

Martha Lucas:

So I went to Chinese medicine.

Martha Lucas:

Really to find that out.

Martha Lucas:

I didn't even have the intention of becoming a practitioner.

Martha Lucas:

I thought, you know, if I can understand how this color

Martha Lucas:

thing works, that'll be good.

Martha Lucas:

I can be a color puncturing and that'll be that orange or I was wrong.

Martha Lucas:

And I'll tell you what completely changed.

Martha Lucas:

My life was meeting my post-diagnosis mentor.

Martha Lucas:

Jim Ram holds, oh, you

Michael Max:

studied with Jim Ram.

Martha Lucas:

I did.

Martha Lucas:

I did.

Martha Lucas:

I, it was the only time in his regrettably short life that he taught a full

Martha Lucas:

semester, long class at a school that was extra, extra money, extra time.

Martha Lucas:

Not that I'm type a or anything, but I signed up.

Martha Lucas:

Wow.

Michael Max:

Yeah, he's an interesting cat.

Michael Max:

I've heard of him.

Michael Max:

Cause I used to live in the Seattle area and he's almost like a ghost, you know,

Michael Max:

like you hear the name here and there.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

I heard he was an amazing pulse status technician.

Martha Lucas:

Oh yeah.

Martha Lucas:

He was a master.

Martha Lucas:

I mean, he was very, very, very humble.

Martha Lucas:

So he would never describe himself as that.

Martha Lucas:

But for me, he totally changed my life because as with most schools, our

Martha Lucas:

school didn't teach Paul's diagnosis.

Martha Lucas:

As a research scientist, I have to use a model that I know

Martha Lucas:

works, that I can see changes.

Martha Lucas:

And that's what I teach.

Martha Lucas:

I can feel the pulses, uh, see what's happening, the, what the

Martha Lucas:

imbalances are and then see whether inserting needles works or not.

Martha Lucas:

I don't have to take it by faith.

Martha Lucas:

Like.

Martha Lucas:

Opening the dynamite with gallbladder 41 sand gel five.

Martha Lucas:

Doesn't always work.

Martha Lucas:

I mean, how do you know it works well, you don't, unless

Martha Lucas:

you can feel a black diamond.

Martha Lucas:

Right?

Martha Lucas:

Wow.

Martha Lucas:

I followed him until his untimely death and I am forever grateful.

Martha Lucas:

He made me the diagnostician that I am today.

Martha Lucas:

So it

Michael Max:

was the pulse that really flipped it for you.

Martha Lucas:

Yes.

Martha Lucas:

Yes.

Martha Lucas:

Because as I said, as a researcher, you just can't take things on

Michael Max:

faith.

Michael Max:

I wouldn't take it on faith either.

Michael Max:

It's like, how do I know that this needle is doing what I think it's doing?

Michael Max:

In fact, uh, jeez.

Michael Max:

I mean, when I first went to acupuncture school, it's, it's funny.

Michael Max:

I, I wasn't sure I was going to graduate and be a practitioner either.

Michael Max:

I wasn't even sure I was going to get all the way through it

Michael Max:

because I was just curious.

Michael Max:

In fact, I wasn't even sure I wanted to be a practitioner because

Michael Max:

I mean, I had a really nice, lovely middle-class high-tech job.

Michael Max:

You know, life was good.

Michael Max:

But I was curious because the dang stuff had helped me.

Michael Max:

And I remember in that first, maybe six months, we'd read about the stomach

Michael Max:

channel goes here and the spleen channel goes there and these points do this.

Michael Max:

And I'd be like, really?

Michael Max:

I mean, it's in a book.

Michael Max:

So someone put it in a book.

Michael Max:

So what big deal is a lot of stuff you can put in a book.

Michael Max:

So what, but then I'd be in clinic.

Michael Max:

And I like put a needle in a, in a place and the patient would go, wow.

Michael Max:

I feel that down in my toe.

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

I put a needle up in their knee and they go, I feel it in my toe and

Michael Max:

I trace the channel and they'd go, how did you know where that was?

Michael Max:

Oh, oh, maybe there's something here.

Martha Lucas:

Right.

Martha Lucas:

And obviously there is something there.

Martha Lucas:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

So talk to us a bit about pulse.

Michael Max:

It's sort of a gold standard kind of thing, right?

Michael Max:

Like, you know, we're all like, oh, the pulse it's, it's the most

Michael Max:

important thing I know for myself, pulses often, no pun intended kind

Michael Max:

of slippery thing to get ahold of.

Martha Lucas:

Well, and that's why I call my book beyond slippery and

Martha Lucas:

wirey, because first of all, I went to a slippery and wirey school.

Martha Lucas:

Everybody was slippery and wiring and clinic maybe once in a while somebody

Martha Lucas:

would say, oh yeah, that's thin and wirey.

Martha Lucas:

Well, there's so much more than that.

Martha Lucas:

In fact, I tell my interns don't think about the quality.

Martha Lucas:

That's not what it's all about.

Martha Lucas:

It's about the flow through the Oregon systems.

Martha Lucas:

That's what good health is.

Martha Lucas:

It's the Tigie symbol.

Martha Lucas:

It's the Tigie symbol.

Martha Lucas:

It's the infinity symbol.

Martha Lucas:

That's what the perfect.

Martha Lucas:

Balance of health is.

Martha Lucas:

So when you have a goal like that in your treatment, my goal is to

Martha Lucas:

make the pulses feel like that.

Martha Lucas:

Then I know whether or not my choice of acupuncture points worked or not.

Martha Lucas:

And I think that's for me, what, every day in my practice, I am still amazed at the

Martha Lucas:

use of acupuncture points and what certain ones do and what certain combinations do.

Martha Lucas:

In fact, I have some acupuncturist says patients, and once in a while, they'll

Martha Lucas:

say, huh why are you using that?

Martha Lucas:

I haven't used that since I got out of school.

Martha Lucas:

And so it's a little teaching moment for them.

Martha Lucas:

When you

Michael Max:

talk about beyond slippery and wiring, you're looking

Michael Max:

for the feeling of the flow of the chief through the Oregon's.

Michael Max:

What does that mean?

Michael Max:

What does that mean?

Michael Max:

If someone's got their fingers on someone's room?

Martha Lucas:

Well, first of all, you have to keep all your fingers together.

Martha Lucas:

There's no more of that lifting up and feeling, oh, what

Martha Lucas:

does the kidney feel like?

Martha Lucas:

What is the spleen feel like?

Martha Lucas:

You don't do that.

Martha Lucas:

That's that's counter intuitive to try to feel flow.

Martha Lucas:

So basically what it means is that you can feel the kidneys support the spleen

Martha Lucas:

stomach, support the lung large intestine.

Martha Lucas:

So you can feel the water supporting the earth, supporting the metal.

Martha Lucas:

On the other side, feel the same thing.

Martha Lucas:

And then you get the sense that each side is supporting each other,

Martha Lucas:

just like the five elemental flow.

Martha Lucas:

So you're

Michael Max:

looking to see if there's any disruption, any little backwash, something

Michael Max:

that's not going smoothly from the church.

Michael Max:

So that's fun.

Martha Lucas:

Yes.

Martha Lucas:

Or is there a block somewhere?

Martha Lucas:

Is there a naughtiness somewhere?

Martha Lucas:

Meaning that the energy is getting stuck in that one location and

Martha Lucas:

then the goal is figure out, okay.

Martha Lucas:

I can feel that block well before I'm going to feel any flow.

Martha Lucas:

I need to release that block.

Martha Lucas:

For example, if I'm treating someone with fertility issues and their Dima is

Martha Lucas:

blocked, well, it would be pure silliness to start trying to find the lower jaw

Martha Lucas:

start tonifying the kidneys and do the rent because why their Dima is blocked.

Martha Lucas:

Nothing good is going to happen from that.

Martha Lucas:

You're going to make them worse.

Martha Lucas:

Right?

Martha Lucas:

Exactly.

Martha Lucas:

What's a

Michael Max:

block time.

Michael Max:

I feel like

Martha Lucas:

for the most part, it feels like on the left side that the kidney

Martha Lucas:

poles isn't flowing into the liver.

Martha Lucas:

So it's like your fingers.

Martha Lucas:

It's like, there's a little wall between your fingers.

Martha Lucas:

That's where I first look for it.

Martha Lucas:

And sometimes it's so blocked that you can feel that same

Martha Lucas:

sensation on the right side.

Martha Lucas:

And the thing is then you don't have to keep feeling the pulses

Martha Lucas:

like, oh, what else is happening?

Martha Lucas:

Because everything is going to change in the polls is

Martha Lucas:

when you open up the dynamite.

Martha Lucas:

So it's literally a block, literally the energy, not moving past your

Martha Lucas:

fingers into the next sector.

Michael Max:

So with the di have you got a few different ways that you like to

Michael Max:

approach getting that thing to open up?

Martha Lucas:

Well, I first do the traditional thing,

Martha Lucas:

gallbladder 41, San gel five.

Martha Lucas:

And then I feel again, and if it's not open, I do gallbladder 26 because one of

Martha Lucas:

its functions is to modulate the dynamite.

Martha Lucas:

Then you might have to go to physical, like diaphragm area points,

Martha Lucas:

local, more local points to see.

Martha Lucas:

And sometimes it's an emotional blocks.

Martha Lucas:

So I talk to my patients a lot about, oh, you know, I'm, I'm doing this and

Martha Lucas:

I'm not feeling this change very much.

Martha Lucas:

So is there something going on that you're not expressing?

Martha Lucas:

And then maybe you have to do something like Ren 14, 15 long one

Martha Lucas:

to get that energy that's stuck in the middle expressed better.

Martha Lucas:

Is

Michael Max:

there.

Michael Max:

A difference in what you feel in the pulse between an emotional blockage

Michael Max:

and a more, shall we say physical

Martha Lucas:

blockage?

Martha Lucas:

Yes.

Martha Lucas:

They may feel the same in the beginning, but if you do quote unquote energetic

Martha Lucas:

point to release that knot or that block, and it doesn't go away, then

Martha Lucas:

you're probably looking at something more physical, physical blocks, like tumors.

Martha Lucas:

They don't go away in the polls when you treat it energetically because

Martha Lucas:

it's part of the physical body.

Martha Lucas:

I

Michael Max:

mean, this dye blockage sounds pretty easy to feel.

Michael Max:

I mean, I, I suspect people that are listening to this go, oh yeah.

Michael Max:

I, I think I've felt that the other day, or maybe it'll go into clinic later today

Michael Max:

and, uh, and recognize that are there any other images from the pulse that,

Michael Max:

that tend to show up on a regular basis?

Michael Max:

Some things that people could look.

Martha Lucas:

Well, there is a lot of anxiety right now with teams

Martha Lucas:

in the U S or the world, maybe.

Martha Lucas:

Uh, and so I think what we feel a lot of also is that the spirit pulses,

Martha Lucas:

so the, uh, there in the heart, small intestine is not flowing very well.

Martha Lucas:

Sometimes there, the liver is blocking the energy into there.

Martha Lucas:

Sometimes the heart pulse is kind of short.

Martha Lucas:

Uh, it might feel a little scattered.

Martha Lucas:

And so a lot of times we need to help people through their emotional stagnation.

Martha Lucas:

I'll call it.

Martha Lucas:

Sometimes I tell people they have a greater capacity for joy, because I can

Martha Lucas:

feel that their spirit isn't very open.

Michael Max:

I often feel something sort of the opposite.

Michael Max:

I often will feel an excess sort of a flooding scatteredness to that

Michael Max:

certain Paul's on the left side.

Martha Lucas:

If I was feeling that I would number one, any sort of imbalanced

Martha Lucas:

feeling like that means that other organ systems are suffering because there's

Martha Lucas:

that, isn't what normal feels like.

Martha Lucas:

Normal would just feel like a nice, smooth, young Indian flow in that sector.

Martha Lucas:

I think with people like that, if you were to talk to them, I think probably

Martha Lucas:

how they feel is a little bit overwhelmed.

Martha Lucas:

They're still not expressing themselves in a smooth way.

Martha Lucas:

So maybe they're holding on to emotions.

Martha Lucas:

I asked almost everybody that are you pretty good at expressing your emotions

Martha Lucas:

or do you tend to hold them in or maybe it's in a woman who needs to have a good.

Martha Lucas:

Yeah, well, you

Michael Max:

know, men could use a good cry a lot of times.

Michael Max:

Well,

Martha Lucas:

they could, yes.

Martha Lucas:

Men could use a good cry.

Martha Lucas:

They w when I ask men, are you pretty good at expressing your emotions?

Martha Lucas:

I have to say probably 90% of the time they say, well, no, not really.

Martha Lucas:

I what's the point.

Martha Lucas:

Why would I do that?

Martha Lucas:

Oh,

Martha Lucas:

so, you know, I tell them, you can do it in your car.

Martha Lucas:

I mean, the important thing is to get it out.

Martha Lucas:

You don't have to say it to your boss.

Martha Lucas:

You don't have to say it to your wife.

Martha Lucas:

The important thing is to get it expressed out of your systems so that

Martha Lucas:

you don't keep yourself stagnated.

Michael Max:

So for people that have not taken your pulse class, but they

Michael Max:

would like to expand their thinking about the pulse, or maybe just expand

Michael Max:

what they can feel with the pulse.

Michael Max:

Have you got any suggestions on some territory they can kind of wander

Michael Max:

into, as they're working with their patients, some, some different

Michael Max:

ways of approaching the pulse in terms of getting some information.

Martha Lucas:

The first thing would be keep your fingers together.

Martha Lucas:

That that idea of lifting and feeling one organ system at a time is just silly.

Martha Lucas:

Once you realize that good health is the flow of young Indian through all the

Martha Lucas:

organ systems, it's kind of silly to pick up your fingers and make them separate.

Martha Lucas:

And you have to go deep.

Martha Lucas:

You have to feel down, down, down deep toward the bone level

Martha Lucas:

to feel the person's core.

Martha Lucas:

Gee, what's going on down there in their original, energetic strength.

Martha Lucas:

When somebody just barely puts their fingers on the pulse.

Martha Lucas:

Uh, feather, there's so much information you're missing.

Martha Lucas:

So if you think about keeping your fingers together, feeling for a flow,

Martha Lucas:

I know this is kind of blasphemous, but forget about the qualities.

Martha Lucas:

Just forget about that and try to feel the, is there any flow

Martha Lucas:

going on under your fingers?

Martha Lucas:

That's what life is.

Martha Lucas:

It's a flow.

Martha Lucas:

That's what the Ty G symbol is.

Martha Lucas:

It's a flow and believe it or not, when you get that flow going, all those

Martha Lucas:

qualities you worried about are gonna go away anyway, because you've balanced

Martha Lucas:

the young and the, and sometimes not.

Martha Lucas:

I mean, I see cancer patients, scleroderma patients, people with

Martha Lucas:

some serious chronic illness sure.

Martha Lucas:

Is the flow of their cheek going to be perfect.

Martha Lucas:

No, they're at the end of their life.

Martha Lucas:

There, they have scleroderma.

Martha Lucas:

They have some dread disease, but the fact of the matter is

Martha Lucas:

some flow is still happening.

Martha Lucas:

Even toward the end of life.

Martha Lucas:

Young and yin might be separating, but there's still some flow there.

Michael Max:

I remember when first being taught pulse, we were

Michael Max:

taught to just pay attention.

Michael Max:

Where's the energy.

Michael Max:

Just, just go into the pulse.

Michael Max:

And is it more at a surface?

Michael Max:

Is it more lower?

Michael Max:

Is it, is it way deep?

Michael Max:

You know, what's it feel like?

Michael Max:

Does it have a tune?

Michael Max:

Does it have a rhyme?

Michael Max:

That kind of thing.

Michael Max:

You know, later we, you know, we learned all the various qualities and things

Michael Max:

that you've got to know for the test.

Michael Max:

It's nice to hear you talk about this in terms of just pay attention to

Michael Max:

how things are all working together.

Michael Max:

It's kind of a relief actually.

Martha Lucas:

Oh, good.

Martha Lucas:

And I'm glad to hear you say that because as I said, I, my school focused on

Martha Lucas:

clearly just on the, the texture, the quality, there was nothing about flow.

Martha Lucas:

I learned all of that from studying with Jim.

Michael Max:

This is very helpful for me every now and then, I mean, often

Michael Max:

enough that it gets my attention.

Michael Max:

I will feel something in the pulse.

Michael Max:

And my first thought is what's that.

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

I mean, there's something in there.

Michael Max:

It's like a fish flicking, its tail.

Michael Max:

There's one.

Michael Max:

I've got a name for it.

Michael Max:

I call it the ringing pulse.

Michael Max:

I mean, it feels like a bell is being run in a particular position.

Michael Max:

There's one that feels like something flapping in the wind.

Michael Max:

I've got all my own images and words for some of the oddball stuff that I feel,

Michael Max:

you know, and I take it as all right.

Michael Max:

There's something here.

Michael Max:

It's, you know, it's up to me to figure out what it is.

Michael Max:

Some of these things I've been able to pin down to.

Michael Max:

Oh, there's an issue with the long or there's, you know, there's

Michael Max:

an issue with this or that.

Michael Max:

Oh, they're not sleeping, but a lot of times I won't know what it means.

Michael Max:

All I know is there's something weird right here.

Michael Max:

And hearing you talk about paying attention to the flowed.

Michael Max:

No where the flow it comes from.

Michael Max:

And nowhere the flow goes.

Michael Max:

This gives me a clue into how I can continue to inquire into some

Michael Max:

of this weird stuff that I feel

Martha Lucas:

good.

Martha Lucas:

And I talked to the patient a lot.

Martha Lucas:

One of my specialties is dealing with old emotional trauma, or sometimes what I

Martha Lucas:

like to call the relinquish meant wound, especially in people who've been adopted

Martha Lucas:

or who are premies, because there's a, there's a depth of deficiency in the

Martha Lucas:

spleen stomach sector that I swear, I feel in every single one of those people.

Martha Lucas:

And you know, you don't start out by saying, oh, are you adopted?

Martha Lucas:

Or were you not nurtured as a child?

Martha Lucas:

But my patients know I'm feeling something.

Martha Lucas:

So they're curious.

Martha Lucas:

So let's say, oh doc, how's it going today?

Martha Lucas:

Or what is it you're feeling?

Martha Lucas:

Why are you, why are you spending so much time right there?

Martha Lucas:

And then I usually start with a very, uh, non.

Martha Lucas:

Scary question and say, so how's your digestion.

Martha Lucas:

And you know, I'll get back something like, oh, as long as I don't

Martha Lucas:

eat dairy or greens, it's great.

Martha Lucas:

So of course I say, well, it's not great.

Martha Lucas:

Then that's a sure sign that it doesn't work very well at all.

Martha Lucas:

Then I'll say, well, you know, did those start in childhood?

Martha Lucas:

And this and that.

Martha Lucas:

And the other day it just happened where a woman was like, no, you

Martha Lucas:

know, I had a kind of a, leave it to beaver, kind of a combination,

Martha Lucas:

leave it to beaver, but a little bit of an army brat kind of childhood.

Martha Lucas:

And I said, okay.

Martha Lucas:

And we're just talking.

Martha Lucas:

And suddenly she starts to tear up.

Martha Lucas:

And she says, you know, now that you're talking about that my mom had one child.

Martha Lucas:

Then she had twins and then she got pregnant with me right after the

Martha Lucas:

twins and was not very happy about it.

Martha Lucas:

And I always kind of felt like I was just that extra kid.

Martha Lucas:

Just happened to be there.

Martha Lucas:

Well, there it is.

Martha Lucas:

There it is.

Martha Lucas:

And that that's something we can change with acupuncture.

Martha Lucas:

We can change that kind of lack of nurturing or feeling that lack from

Martha Lucas:

the beginning, even in utero with acupuncture, because we're not putting

Martha Lucas:

anything in or taking anything out.

Martha Lucas:

We're just taking the stress from a block Dima and feeding

Martha Lucas:

it into those other sectors are taking the overwhelming fullness.

Martha Lucas:

You feel in the heart and moving it back down to the middle.

Martha Lucas:

So there is such profound work we can do for people that it's pretty amazing.

Michael Max:

People often ask me, what did you put on those needles?

Michael Max:

Because they're so used to hypodermics and they're thinking we're

Michael Max:

putting something into the system.

Michael Max:

And of course the answer is I've put nothing in.

Michael Max:

All the needles do is invite something within you to come forth.

Michael Max:

It's so antithetical to our usual Western way of thinking.

Martha Lucas:

Right?

Martha Lucas:

Well, I tell people, I show them a picture of their imbalances and

Martha Lucas:

because I write it down for them, and then I show them the Tigie symbol.

Martha Lucas:

And I say, this is my job.

Martha Lucas:

My job is to make your energy go back to balance like that.

Martha Lucas:

Because at some point, unless from the moment of conception, you are out of

Martha Lucas:

balance for some reason, which some people are, your body knows balance.

Martha Lucas:

It just has forgotten because of all the stresses are physical

Martha Lucas:

illness or emotional problems.

Martha Lucas:

And it's my job to remind your body how to do that.

Martha Lucas:

So I can send you on your way and your body knows how to balance itself better.

Martha Lucas:

What

Michael Max:

kind of pictures do you draw for your patients

Michael Max:

of this to help them understand.

Martha Lucas:

The fingers are three different sectors.

Martha Lucas:

So I draw two lines and I show them, you know, here's where, what

Martha Lucas:

we call the kidneys are, here's your digestion, your nurturing

Martha Lucas:

center, here's your immune system.

Martha Lucas:

And I just, it's just the little graph that I draw.

Martha Lucas:

And I write if the poles is going back and forth, I write little

Martha Lucas:

arrows kind of going back and forth.

Martha Lucas:

And or if it's that relinquishment wound pulse, I draw an arrow going

Martha Lucas:

downward and it gives them a picture of what's going on with themselves.

Martha Lucas:

And it gives them kind of an aha moment.

Martha Lucas:

Oh yeah, I can, I can totally see what you're talking about.

Martha Lucas:

And then I show them the balance young and young in, and they get that idea that, oh,

Martha Lucas:

that's, what's my body supposed to feel like just everything flowing and feelings.

Martha Lucas:

I would

Michael Max:

suspect is kind of a way to check your diagnosis in

Michael Max:

a way to when you feed it back to them that way, if they shake their

Michael Max:

head and go, oh yeah, that's me.

Michael Max:

Sure.

Michael Max:

That's probably a good sign.

Michael Max:

If they look at you, like, what are you talking about?

Michael Max:

What do you do if they look at you?

Michael Max:

Like you've grown a second head.

Martha Lucas:

Well, you know what I do, I always believe.

Martha Lucas:

Jim was a fairly brusque kind of, you know, so I've heard.

Martha Lucas:

Yeah.

Martha Lucas:

Not mean, but there were times where I felt like I was going to cry a little bit.

Martha Lucas:

Um, you know, I tell people I'm a recovering Catholic and

Martha Lucas:

I don't like to be yelled at.

Martha Lucas:

And one time I showed him a picture of a knot in a gentleman's

Martha Lucas:

prostate area and the pulse.

Martha Lucas:

And I said, well, Jim, you know, I think I felt this.

Martha Lucas:

And he said, what do you mean?

Martha Lucas:

You think you felt it?

Martha Lucas:

You either felt it or you didn't feel it.

Martha Lucas:

Why did you draw it?

Martha Lucas:

If you just thought you felt it?

Martha Lucas:

And I'm like, oh, okay.

Martha Lucas:

Okay.

Martha Lucas:

I felt it.

Martha Lucas:

I felt it.

Martha Lucas:

I felt it.

Martha Lucas:

And so I believe myself, you know, because sometimes as I said in the

Martha Lucas:

beginning, if I'm, if I'm kind angling toward, you know, I'm not so sure

Martha Lucas:

your childhood was very nurturing.

Martha Lucas:

Well, you just met.

Martha Lucas:

Maybe you're not going to blurt out.

Martha Lucas:

Oh yeah.

Martha Lucas:

My dad was an alcoholic and you know, my home life was a mess.

Martha Lucas:

But then at the second or the third treatment, they'll come and say, remember,

Martha Lucas:

you asked me about something, something, well, actually I was thinking about that

Martha Lucas:

and this did happen when I was seven.

Martha Lucas:

So sometimes it just takes a little building of trust.

Martha Lucas:

And as I said, I always believed myself.

Martha Lucas:

I feel like sometimes people aren't in touch.

Martha Lucas:

They don't want to say anything.

Martha Lucas:

They don't know me yet, but I always trust my own diagnostic skills.

Michael Max:

How did you come to that?

Michael Max:

How do you learn to trust yourself with something as subjective as the.

Martha Lucas:

By seeing the changes by putting some needles in saying to myself,

Martha Lucas:

you know, I think this is, uh, I think I need to open their spirit a little bit and

Martha Lucas:

put some needles in and then it changes.

Martha Lucas:

So as a research scientist, I say to myself, wow, actually

Martha Lucas:

those points just did that.

Martha Lucas:

Or I, I still like to experiment.

Martha Lucas:

That's why I use so many different acupuncture points because I maybe

Martha Lucas:

feel a pulse and think, oh, wow.

Martha Lucas:

I don't know where to start.

Martha Lucas:

So I think, well, I'll try this.

Martha Lucas:

And I really do say that to myself.

Martha Lucas:

I really do say, oh, let me just try this.

Martha Lucas:

And it works or it doesn't work.

Martha Lucas:

Then I know I'm.

Martha Lucas:

If it works, then I'm like, oh yeah.

Martha Lucas:

All right.

Martha Lucas:

I'm I'm good.

Martha Lucas:

I was totally right about that.

Martha Lucas:

If it doesn't work, then I say to myself, Hmm.

Martha Lucas:

So they're wrong about that combination doing that?

Martha Lucas:

Or, or, you know, that combination kind of did a little something, but

Martha Lucas:

didn't make it quite as balanced as I want it to be constantly testing.

Martha Lucas:

Yes.

Martha Lucas:

Yes.

Martha Lucas:

Every patient is a little research project.

Martha Lucas:

For example, I had a priapism patient years ago.

Martha Lucas:

I did some kidney yang and kidney in points.

Martha Lucas:

And I was giving that, showing that case to someone and

Martha Lucas:

one of my peers or students.

Martha Lucas:

And, uh, she said, well, wait a minute.

Martha Lucas:

It was priapism.

Martha Lucas:

Why would you do kidney young?

Martha Lucas:

And I said, because the kidneys are out of balance, the person has

Martha Lucas:

a history of childhood nephrosis.

Martha Lucas:

So he's got a history of the kidneys misbehaving somewhat,

Martha Lucas:

and I have to get it balanced.

Martha Lucas:

So I don't just use the young or the Inn.

Martha Lucas:

It's important to use both.

Martha Lucas:

Sometimes most of the time, actually

Michael Max:

as human beings, we have incredible sensing abilities.

Michael Max:

Once we let ourselves in on, we can feel these things.

Michael Max:

We can have access to these levels.

Michael Max:

You know, maybe we can even have a peak into someone's early childhood

Michael Max:

and enough respect not to say anything directly, but to hold it over the

Michael Max:

course of a period of time until, until they're ready to say something about it.

Martha Lucas:

Right, right.

Martha Lucas:

I mean, I may still treat it.

Martha Lucas:

I have to treat what I feel, but if they're not ready to say anything

Martha Lucas:

about it, then I that's fine.

Martha Lucas:

And you know, honestly, that's why pain.

Martha Lucas:

Isn't one of my favorite things to treat because if someone comes in with shoulder

Martha Lucas:

pain, but it turns out that it's an old, emotional trauma, that's not allowing

Martha Lucas:

the energy to flow in the small intestine channel or the large intestine channel.

Martha Lucas:

They don't want to hear that they came in for shoulder pain and, uh, you know, some

Martha Lucas:

people do, some people are like, wow, you mean really something that happened in

Martha Lucas:

my past could be affecting that channel.

Martha Lucas:

And there four eventually lead to pain.

Martha Lucas:

Yes, actually that is how the body can work.

Martha Lucas:

But if they're not ready to hear that and they just want their pain

Martha Lucas:

fixed, then I can do that too.

Martha Lucas:

I'm still going to, in my mind treat the old issue.

Martha Lucas:

But I don't have to talk to them about it if they're not ready.

Martha Lucas:

Cause I'm not a psychotherapist, I'm a research psychologist,

Martha Lucas:

a research scientist.

Martha Lucas:

So I don't do psychotherapy.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

I don't do psychotherapy either.

Michael Max:

Although I get accused of being a therapist by my patients all the

Michael Max:

time, because we'll be sitting exactly what you were just saying.

Michael Max:

They come in with a shoulder in a Scot trouble.

Michael Max:

I work on their shoulder and maybe they bring something up that actually does

Michael Max:

have some emotional content or they bring something up that is actually getting

Michael Max:

to what the issue of the shoulder is.

Michael Max:

I didn't bring it up.

Michael Max:

They bring it up.

Michael Max:

All I do is get curious and inquire about that.

Michael Max:

And then all kinds of other information comes through.

Michael Max:

And so often people come in with a busted up body part and they find out

Michael Max:

there's all this other stuff going on.

Michael Max:

And it's not something that I'm pushing them toward.

Michael Max:

It's not something I'm asking them to do.

Michael Max:

I just hold a space that it can come up.

Michael Max:

If at once.

Michael Max:

And that's

Martha Lucas:

beautiful.

Martha Lucas:

I mean, I say that's how Chinese medicine can help people be more, the spiritual

Martha Lucas:

InTouch person that they were meant to be is because we allow them to see

Martha Lucas:

how all of those things are connected.

Martha Lucas:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

And sometimes just dial down the reactivity enough that they can

Michael Max:

notice, oh, this is connected to that.

Michael Max:

Huh?

Michael Max:

How about that?

Michael Max:

That's right.

Michael Max:

You know, I could go on and on with you about the pulse, but I

Michael Max:

want to get into the other piece of what you're doing, which is the

Michael Max:

mates end, the facial acupuncture.

Michael Max:

You you've got this deep curiosity about how things work.

Michael Max:

You're so lucky to run it around halts.

Michael Max:

Cause you got to, you got a piece of pulsing lineage that not many people have.

Michael Max:

Where did the mates encompass?

Martha Lucas:

Well, because I already had a career.

Martha Lucas:

I, when I went to Chinese medicine school, I was, I probably was 40 ish.

Martha Lucas:

And I don't know, right at the beginning of school, somebody said,

Martha Lucas:

or there was something in class about how Chinese medicine can help you

Martha Lucas:

maintain your youthful appearance and help take lines and wrinkles away.

Martha Lucas:

Now, the first thing is Chinese medicine is a preventive medicine.

Martha Lucas:

So we start seeing you as a child, we help prevent the flu we help.

Martha Lucas:

Or if you get a cold in school, we help you get over that more

Martha Lucas:

quickly and see you for your life.

Martha Lucas:

Then yes, you're going to age more gracefully because it takes a lot out of

Martha Lucas:

someone to have the flu for six weeks.

Martha Lucas:

So that's the first thing I thought was, oh, wow, this is great.

Martha Lucas:

You can stay healthy.

Martha Lucas:

And you're going to age more gracefully.

Martha Lucas:

Then I started to think about, Hmm, what's this deal with the

Martha Lucas:

needles and the face and the skin.

Martha Lucas:

So one of my peers and I started to just kind of.

Martha Lucas:

Oh, we started to just fool around a little bit with needles

Martha Lucas:

in the face and try to think about how that would all work.

Martha Lucas:

And then I did some research into the classics and realized that

Martha Lucas:

in the old, old days they did, what's called multiple needling.

Martha Lucas:

So started experimenting with putting more than one needle in a point,

Martha Lucas:

and then did the modern medicine research into where wrinkles start,

Martha Lucas:

what's going on with the skin that we begin to sag and get wrinkles.

Martha Lucas:

And it turns out in my classes, the students all laugh, but I call the

Martha Lucas:

thirties the decade of decline for your skin, because that's really when things

Martha Lucas:

start to go downhill with the skin.

Martha Lucas:

So again, if you want to prevent lines and wrinkles, the time to start getting

Martha Lucas:

needles in your skin is in your third.

Martha Lucas:

So you can maintain that look, instead of trying to go backward when you're 60.

Martha Lucas:

Cause it's easier to prevent the lines and wrinkles than it

Martha Lucas:

is, make them go away, frankly.

Michael Max:

I mean, that's just true for anything with medicine, right?

Michael Max:

If you can, if you can avoid having a problem, that's the best way to do it.

Martha Lucas:

Exactly.

Martha Lucas:

But that's an educational thing.

Martha Lucas:

I, I recently had someone new patient come hurt, some kind of pain and I was just

Martha Lucas:

explaining and giving her the rap about preventing, like, okay, once we get rid of

Martha Lucas:

this pain, then I need to see you to just keep the pain away and prevent the pain.

Martha Lucas:

And she said, huh, I've always just come for acupuncture.

Martha Lucas:

When I have pain.

Martha Lucas:

I never thought about it as preventing the pain.

Martha Lucas:

It's so surprising.

Michael Max:

Isn't it?

Martha Lucas:

Yes.

Martha Lucas:

Yeah.

Martha Lucas:

So, so, so no one ever explained that to her.

Martha Lucas:

You wouldn't think about that?

Martha Lucas:

I don't think unless someone said those words, Hey, let's

Martha Lucas:

prevent the pain in the future.

Martha Lucas:

Instead of, I just see you every time you have the.

Michael Max:

Well, we think about getting our cars service

Michael Max:

for preventative maintenance.

Michael Max:

You know, if you have a musical instrument on occasion, you got

Michael Max:

to tweak the strings on it, right?

Michael Max:

Yes.

Michael Max:

Because things change with aging and things change with

Michael Max:

the temperature and seasonal.

Martha Lucas:

Right.

Martha Lucas:

But our mindset about medicine, isn't that our mindset about we don't come to

Martha Lucas:

R D I mean, once a year, we come to our doctor and say, Hey, I'm feeling great.

Martha Lucas:

I'm just here.

Martha Lucas:

So you can confirm that with blood work and listen to my heart, but we don't just

Martha Lucas:

come in and say, Hey, I'm feeling great.

Martha Lucas:

And I'm here to see you.

Martha Lucas:

So that's the mindset even for at Chinese medicine is I have

Martha Lucas:

a pain, I have a cold, I have a mostly it's pain I need to be seen.

Martha Lucas:

So we have to educate people to start young.

Michael Max:

Well, over in Asia, it is a little bit different.

Michael Max:

I mean, I remember in my teachers clinic, women would often come

Michael Max:

in after their period, just to just to, just to regulate that.

Michael Max:

All right, just to harmonize.

Martha Lucas:

Well, I tell my fertility patients, once they get

Martha Lucas:

pregnant, I say, okay, you're not done.

Martha Lucas:

You need to get treated during your pregnancy and you're not

Martha Lucas:

done after you have your baby.

Martha Lucas:

I know it'll be a little more stressful because you know, now you've

Martha Lucas:

got this baby and you're busy and you need a babysitter or whatever.

Martha Lucas:

I tell them they can bring their newborns because they sleep anyway.

Martha Lucas:

But I, I clearly say you are not done.

Martha Lucas:

You need to absolutely come after you have your baby.

Martha Lucas:

I was

Michael Max:

talking to someone the other day who used the phrase fourth trimester.

Michael Max:

Let me help you with the fourth trimester.

Michael Max:

That's

Martha Lucas:

great.

Martha Lucas:

Isn't it?

Michael Max:

That's great.

Michael Max:

It really rang a bell again in Asia.

Michael Max:

They've got a thing called Zuora.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

It's especially in Taiwan where the women take a month off, they eat

Michael Max:

nourishing foods they're attended to they're cared for, they look to

Michael Max:

build their blood in sheet back up because they just lost a lot of it.

Michael Max:

Yes.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

So that idea of a fourth trimester, that's something I think that

Michael Max:

Western women could understand.

Martha Lucas:

Oh, I think so.

Martha Lucas:

Except that, as I said, I think there's so much going on after that, that once again,

Martha Lucas:

self care kind of goes out the window.

Martha Lucas:

So

Michael Max:

back to the face, in addition to getting rid of lines and

Michael Max:

wrinkles, looking more youthful and all that, what other kinds of changes

Michael Max:

do you see happening for the people that come in for these kinds of treats?

Martha Lucas:

Well, first of all, you always do a body treatment.

Martha Lucas:

So it's with, with the maids and it's two treatments in that session.

Martha Lucas:

So take the pulses balance the body, because I always explain to

Martha Lucas:

them that the causes of aging are from the inside and the outside.

Martha Lucas:

So, you know, I kind of point to my lower dantien and my digestion

Martha Lucas:

and my breathing and say all of that needs to be regulated because

Martha Lucas:

that's why partly, maybe why you're prematurely gray or premature wrinkling.

Martha Lucas:

So you do that part and then we do the facelift or the neck lift protocol.

Martha Lucas:

On top of that, because for one thing, I think prescriptions

Martha Lucas:

work better on a balanced body than, than not, they feel good.

Martha Lucas:

Sometimes their digestion gets better.

Martha Lucas:

They're so relaxed.

Martha Lucas:

They, I take the eye pillow off and they say, I can't believe how

Martha Lucas:

relaxed I am with all those needles in how is that even possible?

Martha Lucas:

Well, it's because I treated your body first.

Martha Lucas:

I got the system balanced first.

Martha Lucas:

So with our system, it's, it's really more than just a cosmetic treatment.

Martha Lucas:

It's a full body treatment.

Martha Lucas:

And that way you are accessing the energetics of the

Martha Lucas:

channels that go in the face.

Martha Lucas:

I don't really believe in just needling align or only needling the face.

Martha Lucas:

I feel like that's Western medicine, that would be something

Martha Lucas:

an institution would do.

Martha Lucas:

We need to treat the whole body, like where what's going on, the imbalances,

Martha Lucas:

why isn't proper oxygen and blood, getting up to the skin and, and.

Martha Lucas:

You know, what's going on in the lungs that are, do they have heat in them?

Martha Lucas:

And that's why your skin is so red.

Martha Lucas:

So it's a combination of treating the entire constitution and.

Martha Lucas:

Based

Michael Max:

or the neck, it sounds like you're doing a

Michael Max:

bit of differential diagnosis.

Michael Max:

You're looking to see, is this issue coming more from a digestive function

Michael Max:

or malfunction or is it because there's some issues with the lungs

Michael Max:

or is there an issue with the fluids?

Michael Max:

Are you doing some of that kind of or are you just looking more, a constitutional

Michael Max:

level, you know, just overall.

Michael Max:

No.

Martha Lucas:

I, I always, when I'm doing the pulses, it's always a complete

Martha Lucas:

D and D in terms of what Oregon systems are doing with, or without each other.

Martha Lucas:

And fix that before we start.

Martha Lucas:

And I mean, some people, I tell it, say in my classes with some people, if

Martha Lucas:

you just make their digestion better, their skin's going to look better.

Martha Lucas:

But if they're interested in more than that lines or age spots or wrinkles or

Martha Lucas:

sagging, then it's totally appropriate to just go right up to the face or the neck

Michael Max:

right on each spot should get enough blood moving

Michael Max:

through that area that, that they was, those can lighten up or just.

Martha Lucas:

Yes, because we're reinvigorating the dermis.

Martha Lucas:

So when you get the dermis moving properly and having proper oxygen and blood flow,

Martha Lucas:

then age spots can resolve themselves.

Martha Lucas:

I mean, they're coming up from the deep area anyway.

Martha Lucas:

So when you regenerate the dermis, uh, those sorts of things can be resolved.

Martha Lucas:

Plus you do have to talk to people about what they're putting on their skin.

Martha Lucas:

There's no doubt about it.

Martha Lucas:

Again, it's Chinese medicine.

Martha Lucas:

It's a partnership.

Martha Lucas:

I'm not just going to put these needles in and you're going to go home and go

Martha Lucas:

out in the sun and not put on moisturizer and think you're going to look fabulous.

Martha Lucas:

So it's, it's again, it's a bit of a partnership.

Martha Lucas:

People have

Michael Max:

to take responsibility for their own self care.

Martha Lucas:

Right.

Martha Lucas:

That's a big part of Chinese medicine.

Martha Lucas:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Do you use guash Shaw or cupping in your work with the facial

Martha Lucas:

rejuvenate?

Martha Lucas:

Not so much, uh, much more of a guash Shaw or then I am cupping because I feel like

Martha Lucas:

the guash Shaw tool is a more precise, allows you to do more precise work.

Martha Lucas:

What I will do is the patient can do that at home.

Martha Lucas:

If they want to, I can show them how to do or actually Derma rolling either one.

Martha Lucas:

And then they can do that at home, in between the cosmetic

Martha Lucas:

acupuncture, treatment maintenance.

Martha Lucas:

I don't like them to do it too much in between the actual protocol treatments,

Martha Lucas:

because the body needs to respond to are accessing the collagen and elastin

Martha Lucas:

matrix, but certainly in between their month long maintenance, if they want to

Martha Lucas:

do a little facial gua SHA or something like that, that's totally appropriate.

Michael Max:

You know?

Michael Max:

So often people think if a little is good, more is gooder and yeah.

Michael Max:

Then you end up with overtreatment the body doesn't have a chance to

Michael Max:

respond to one treatment before it's having to deal with another.

Martha Lucas:

Exactly.

Martha Lucas:

And I'll say, let's see how this works for you.

Martha Lucas:

Like they'll say, oh, well, can I get appeal?

Martha Lucas:

It's the protocol is a 10 treatment protocol and they'll say, can

Martha Lucas:

I get a appeal in between?

Martha Lucas:

And I say, well, no, no, I don't want you to get appeal.

Martha Lucas:

Let's see how this is working.

Martha Lucas:

Let's see how Mason works before you go and try to do other stuff.

Michael Max:

No, you're, you're a research scientist.

Michael Max:

You want to take it step by step and see what each thing does, right?

Martha Lucas:

It's true.

Martha Lucas:

Yes, I do.

Martha Lucas:

It's tough sometimes because I, sometimes I can found my own stuff.

Michael Max:

Th that is an interesting thing.

Michael Max:

I know in my practice are people who come in and they really want to know

Michael Max:

what's the thing that's going on.

Michael Max:

And what's the thing that's going to fix it.

Michael Max:

And they're okay with doing one thing at a time.

Michael Max:

And then there's others that say, bring the smorgasbord,

Michael Max:

just make the problem go away.

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

And, uh, I, I tend to have that kind of mind too.

Michael Max:

I want to know why something worked and why it did, or I want to know why

Michael Max:

something didn't work and why it did.

Michael Max:

So I, I, I can hopefully learn.

Michael Max:

So.

Martha Lucas:

Well, I just told a patient yesterday that cause you know, sometimes

Martha Lucas:

I, we all experienced people come in and say, oh, one of my first questions, just

Martha Lucas:

so I know how to approach the needling is.

Martha Lucas:

So have you ever had acupuncture before?

Martha Lucas:

Oh yeah.

Martha Lucas:

I've had acupuncture before and it didn't work.

Martha Lucas:

And I do not have a problem saying to people, well, acupuncture does work.

Martha Lucas:

And sometimes what didn't work was you didn't go for enough treatments or

Martha Lucas:

you didn't get treatments frequently enough for, for long-term enough.

Martha Lucas:

Or sometimes there are some things maybe your practitioner asks you to do

Martha Lucas:

in between treatments that you didn't do because acupuncture does work.

Martha Lucas:

Now, there are poorly trained practitioners in every profession,

Martha Lucas:

medical doctors, lawyers, everywhere.

Martha Lucas:

And that could be a factor too, but I really focus a lot on

Martha Lucas:

acupuncture works, so we need to figure out why it didn't work.

Martha Lucas:

That last.

Martha Lucas:

What would

Michael Max:

you call a fair trial for acupuncture

Martha Lucas:

for acute things?

Martha Lucas:

I would say three to six treatments, and I'd like to see the person at least twice

Martha Lucas:

a week for more chronic things, chronic meaning maybe between eight and 12 months.

Martha Lucas:

Then we're looking more at six to 12 treatments.

Martha Lucas:

And then for chronic chronic, like my nephrosis from childhood

Martha Lucas:

patient, I see him once a week.

Martha Lucas:

I've seen him for 15 years, once a week and his kidney diseases and

Martha Lucas:

total remission just with acupuncture because he's not an urban guy,

Martha Lucas:

you

Michael Max:

know, that's impossible.

Martha Lucas:

It's totally impossible.

Martha Lucas:

Possible.

Martha Lucas:

He's one of my biggest fans because he used to have, when he came to

Martha Lucas:

see me, he, first of all, he smelled like a person with kidney disease.

Martha Lucas:

He had that kidney disease owner and he had to take 10 days a month of

Martha Lucas:

prednisone to keep it under control.

Martha Lucas:

And he hasn't had to take prednisone in, I think I don't even know over a decade.

Martha Lucas:

Wow.

Martha Lucas:

So acupuncture, acupuncture

Michael Max:

works in powerful, powerful ways.

Michael Max:

I just want to jump back to one thing that you talked about a moment or

Michael Max:

two ago about guash Shaw and Derma.

Michael Max:

Rolling.

Michael Max:

I'm not familiar with Derma.

Michael Max:

Rolling.

Michael Max:

What is it?

Michael Max:

And how's it different from guash Shaw and from your point of view, how do

Michael Max:

these two things work to be helpful?

Martha Lucas:

Okay.

Martha Lucas:

So Derma a Derma roller is one of those little rollers with needles on it.

Martha Lucas:

So you can buy them like 0.5 0.75.

Martha Lucas:

In theory, it's making little, uh, it's kind of like a seven star hammer needle,

Martha Lucas:

but in a, on a roll or, but, and not.

Martha Lucas:

Yeah, I know, but not, that's not as deep, like microneedling

Martha Lucas:

is basically an electronic.

Martha Lucas:

Seven star hammer needle, which I just, I had to go get one years ago a treatment

Martha Lucas:

because I thought no way, no way.

Martha Lucas:

Somebody's going to be like with, with that kind of a needle on your face.

Martha Lucas:

But it is you have to be lighter caned up because it's so painful.

Martha Lucas:

But a Derma roller is a much smaller, shorter needle version of that.

Martha Lucas:

And so theoretically, you can roll it on your skin and

Martha Lucas:

your skin's going to get red.

Martha Lucas:

And you're going to make little tiny puncture wounds depending

Martha Lucas:

on how deep the needles are.

Martha Lucas:

But in order for it to have a lifting effect, you must needle into the dermis,

Martha Lucas:

just doing topically in the epidermis.

Martha Lucas:

It's going to give a little exfoliation.

Martha Lucas:

It's going to make your skin kind of pain, just like wash will, but for

Martha Lucas:

lifting, which is what I treat people for.

Martha Lucas:

You must needle into the dermis.

Martha Lucas:

You must.

Martha Lucas:

Is stimulate the collagen and elastin matrix.

Martha Lucas:

So I feel like Derma rolling and guash Shaw are a nice in between tools

Martha Lucas:

to give your skin some freshness.

Martha Lucas:

And, uh, you know, guash is not necessarily going to

Martha Lucas:

exfoliate, but Derma rolling can.

Martha Lucas:

So that's kind of the difference it's it's like is my goal just to freshen my

Martha Lucas:

skin up a little bit like an exfoliant, or is my goal to go a little deeper

Martha Lucas:

and inspire the collagen and elastin matrix to start being more firm again.

Martha Lucas:

So you have

Michael Max:

to get into the epidermis to do that.

Michael Max:

Right.

Martha Lucas:

You have to go pass the,

Michael Max:

pass, the epidermis, you have to get into the dermis for that.

Martha Lucas:

Right.

Martha Lucas:

And you know what, honestly, uh, are you familiar with the Graston technique at

Michael Max:

all?

Michael Max:

Okay.

Michael Max:

Yeah, it's um, basically guash Shaw with very, very expensive tools

Martha Lucas:

and a lot of.

Martha Lucas:

A lot more pounds per square inch of pressure than you would be willing to do

Martha Lucas:

on your, your face or somebody else's.

Martha Lucas:

Because they are also accessing the deeper skin and, uh, layers and fascia.

Michael Max:

So I didn't realize that.

Michael Max:

Okay.

Michael Max:

That's, that's, that's helpful to know.

Michael Max:

Cause I thought it was just sort of a rebranding of guash Shaw

Michael Max:

with, you know, super expensive.

Martha Lucas:

It is in that sense, but they're not, it's a very, very

Martha Lucas:

much more deep, deeply oriented in my experience, deeply oriented, uh,

Martha Lucas:

pressure, I guess you could call it.

Martha Lucas:

I mean, let's face it with Gosha.

Martha Lucas:

You can watch YouTube videos about guash Shaw, where there's not even any

Martha Lucas:

Shaw and you can watch YouTube videos of where the person is bleeding.

Martha Lucas:

So I, like, I tell my patients who want to know, I'll say, well, you know, if

Martha Lucas:

you're, if you watch one that the person starts to bleed, that's not how I do wash

Michael Max:

up.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

That would be, that'd be a bit excessive.

Michael Max:

My wife, uh, who's Chinese does squash on a very Chinese sort of way.

Michael Max:

I wouldn't say she makes me bleed, but a boy howdy.

Michael Max:

She guash Sharlin Italia and get, gets into the.

Martha Lucas:

I was teaching in class in Calgary a few years ago, and somehow

Martha Lucas:

or other, these practitioners had never learned or experienced squash Haas.

Martha Lucas:

So I said, oh, all right, well, let's take some time.

Martha Lucas:

Cause I'm going to teach you how to do it.

Martha Lucas:

So I was, uh, I said, look, I'm going to lie down.

Martha Lucas:

And I want you to experiment with, you know, doing some guash on my back.

Martha Lucas:

Oh my goodness.

Martha Lucas:

They were like a feather.

Martha Lucas:

And I kept saying, no, no, push hard.

Martha Lucas:

They would push us.

Martha Lucas:

Well, we don't want to hurt you.

Martha Lucas:

I'm like, let's listen to me.

Martha Lucas:

Put your whole body weight because they were so afraid.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Well, you know, I mean, it, it helps to be able to know the different layers.

Michael Max:

A lot of times I think people are afraid of hurting somebody and,

Michael Max:

but, you know, you can always just check in with your patient.

Michael Max:

How's this feel?

Michael Max:

What I've found is there's times I thought I was being heavy handed and

Michael Max:

people go, oh, that feels so good.

Michael Max:

So I'm like, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to follow your lead on this.

Martha Lucas:

Yes.

Martha Lucas:

I tell people like your massage therapist says your, I say, okay,

Martha Lucas:

look, zero is you don't feel anything.

Martha Lucas:

10 is I can't stand it anymore.

Martha Lucas:

It's so painful.

Martha Lucas:

And you know, I tend to go kind of deep.

Martha Lucas:

I want to get that muscle not out.

Martha Lucas:

So if it's a seven or an eight, just say it, just say seven, say eight.

Martha Lucas:

And I will know to back off.

Martha Lucas:

And I hardly ever have anybody say that, no matter how hard I think I'm working.

Michael Max:

Do you have some favorite kind of tools that you use for.

Martha Lucas:

You know, my oldest ones are, I think they're Buffalo horn and

Martha Lucas:

they have they're rectangular, but they've got the little notches that

Martha Lucas:

you can kind of like go down the spine.

Martha Lucas:

So yeah, though, that's just my it's.

Martha Lucas:

Those are so old.

Martha Lucas:

They're almost, they almost have sharp edges because I've used them so much.

Martha Lucas:

Yes I have.

Martha Lucas:

Yeah.

Martha Lucas:

I'm always amazed when I, I sell little pain relief kits to my patient and

Martha Lucas:

when I get up a new guash out tool, I'm like, whoa, that thing is kind of heavy.

Martha Lucas:

In fact,

Michael Max:

my need to replace a more, how do you clean your quad shot

Martha Lucas:

tools?

Martha Lucas:

I use a, um, kind of a medical, uh, gosh, of course.

Martha Lucas:

I can't think of the name of it now.

Martha Lucas:

I have those anti septic cloth.

Michael Max:

Oh yeah.

Michael Max:

I know.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

I can't remember the name either.

Michael Max:

I know what you're talking about.

Michael Max:

Okay.

Michael Max:

Martha, you seem to have your finger in so many different pies.

Michael Max:

Is there anything else that you're working with these days?

Martha Lucas:

I'm working on a survey right now for women

Martha Lucas:

whose libido has disappeared.

Martha Lucas:

And so I, I have my questionnaire ready and I will be, I'm trying to figure out

Martha Lucas:

ways to get it to practitioners, to give to their patients, because what started to

Martha Lucas:

happen was women in their thirties started telling me they don't have a libido.

Martha Lucas:

They don't feel like having sex anymore.

Martha Lucas:

And I started to think, you know, this is kind of getting bigger than, oh,

Martha Lucas:

I'm 65 and I'm post-menopausal and I don't have any hormones anymore.

Martha Lucas:

Uh, because when you're 30, you do.

Martha Lucas:

So.

Martha Lucas:

Yeah.

Martha Lucas:

So I started.

Martha Lucas:

I'm looking at it from a, you know, a physical standpoint,

Martha Lucas:

a socioeconomic standpoint.

Martha Lucas:

And then, uh, in my final paper, I want to write, um, write some

Martha Lucas:

ideas from different perspectives.

Martha Lucas:

What would Western medicine do?

Martha Lucas:

What would Chinese medicine do?

Martha Lucas:

What would we do in a psycho-emotional way?

Martha Lucas:

And in February, I'm going to have the opportunity to, I'm doing a

Martha Lucas:

pulse internship up in Buffalo and the owners of the clinic.

Martha Lucas:

There were yes,

Michael Max:

February.

Martha Lucas:

'cause I go where I'm wanted,

Michael Max:

you must be really wanting to go to Buffalo in the winter.

Martha Lucas:

Well, I'm from the Northeast, so it's no big deal, but, um,

Martha Lucas:

the, the clinic owners there also work one day a week in a clinic in Appalachia.

Martha Lucas:

And so I am going to get to go feel pulses of basically an

Martha Lucas:

inbred population and oh wow.

Martha Lucas:

Theories in my mind about DJing are going insane.

Martha Lucas:

And I'm going to be writing a paper about.

Michael Max:

It sounds like you would like to get this survey out into

Michael Max:

practitioner's hands, is that correct?

Michael Max:

Yes.

Michael Max:

So, you know, there's a lot of practitioners that listen to

Michael Max:

qiological would you like for people to contact you to, to help out with

Martha Lucas:

this?

Martha Lucas:

Sure.

Martha Lucas:

That would be great.

Martha Lucas:

Okay.

Martha Lucas:

That

Michael Max:

would be great.

Michael Max:

All right, then we'll, we'll make sure your contact information is

Michael Max:

on the show notes page and, uh, get ready for a day lose because

Michael Max:

there's a lot of people that listen

Martha Lucas:

to this.

Martha Lucas:

All right.

Martha Lucas:

No, that would be perfect because as research, as you know, I, I don't want

Martha Lucas:

to do a study with 10 subjects in it.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

That, that, that would not work for your researching, uh, side of your brain.

Martha Lucas:

Right.

Martha Lucas:

That being said, though, let's not forget about the case study.

Martha Lucas:

Okay.

Martha Lucas:

Both Western medicine and Chinese medicine are missing a wealth of information

Martha Lucas:

because we have that mindset that I just shared about, oh, I need a hundred.

Martha Lucas:

I need a thousand subjects.

Martha Lucas:

The case study in my PhD training, the case study was the first

Martha Lucas:

research method that I learned about.

Martha Lucas:

And we as practitioners have probably hundreds of thousands of case studies

Martha Lucas:

that as long as we have in our mind.

Martha Lucas:

Oh, well that didn't mean anything.

Martha Lucas:

Then we're missing data points for sure.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Well, so often Chinese medicine is taught through case studies.

Martha Lucas:

Yes, of

Michael Max:

course it is wonderful.

Michael Max:

Martha, anything else that you'd like to share with the listeners

Michael Max:

before we wind this down?

Martha Lucas:

I wish every practitioner absolutely adored what they're

Martha Lucas:

doing and was invigorated by it.

Martha Lucas:

That's what I wish.

Martha Lucas:

I love it.

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