Learning to Thrive Beyond Pornography use was the greatest challenge of our life and marriage. It had rocked my self confidence, tainted all of the most important experiences of my life and become the most impossible challenge I had.

With this podcast or at https://www.GetToThrive.com you'll learn about the struggle, how to overcome pornography use, and where to find additional resources to begin to thrive beyond pornography with your spouse.

At some point I took a step away from all the 12 step meetings and councilors and started to figure out my own brain, to look at my issue as something that I had the answer to and I was going to figure it out. Here I share those lessons and give you the power to start your own journey free. Whether you struggle with unwanted pornography use or are the spouse or partner, whether you feel stuck or just don't know where to start, here I will teach you principles, tools and skills that you can use today to change how you think and, in the end, what you do.

You'll hear interviews with my spouse, with experts on human sexuality and with former and current pornography users on how you can overcome your own struggle with addictive behavior.

The Thrive Beyond Pornography podcast will bring new perspective to your struggle and keep you coming back to improve all aspects of your life. (formerly, The Self Mastery Podcast: Overcome Pornography Forever)

Episode 263

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Joey: Hi.

Nicole: Hello.

Zach Spafford: So Joey and Nicole, you guys have been working with me for just under a year. Um, you guys came to me, what, November of last year, I think.

Joey: And then we officially kind of started, was it January? We kind of officially started in January. I think we had our first meeting kind of December ish, but

Zach Spafford: I'm excited to have this conversation with you guys. Cause I know that so often these conversations really help. So People out there have hope. Too often when it comes to pornography struggles and Relationship struggles. There's just this lack of hope. There's like, oh this is we're gonna deal with this forever and today I want to Give people hope.

So tell us a little bit about yourselves. We'll have Nicole go first and Joey, you go next and then, and then we'll go, then we'll, I'll ask you some other questions, but just go ahead and start by just telling us a little bit about yourselves.

Nicole: So we've been married for four years. We have a little son that's just a year and a half old and he's the cutest little thing.

I'm a teacher. I teach high school health and PE and financial lit kind of bunch of random things and.

Zach Spafford: And if I'm not mistaken, your friend, your friends with Andy Marks, who was on the podcast, probably three years ago now.

Nicole: And she kind of heard about you now.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. Okay. Brilliant. Joey, tell us about you.

Joey: I'm Joey. I've been married to Nicole for the same amount of time that she referenced. I work for a software company.

And. Yeah, I've been grateful to, to, to meet with you and to get to know you more. And really grateful for Andy. Andy's a really good friend of Nicole, like he referenced. And while we've gone through this journey, you know, solo, uh, on my own, before I met Nicole, and then as we got married and got into it more, Andy was a really good reference that I don't think we really knew what she had gone through.

So we were, we were really grateful for her openness and then kind of led us to meeting to you. So.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. So shout out to Andy. She's like, awesome. She's a great person.

Start by just like, why did you come, why did you want to meet with me? What were you looking to accomplish?

Joey: I think the main thing was, um, my journey with pornography has been, I mean, pretty much my entire life at this point.

And I felt like I had really run the gambit of a lot of things. I tried a lot of different programs or talking to people or trying to go out on my own and all these different things. And I think with with the nature of it, it's really easy to be isolated. And once Nicole came into my life, it was hard to not make it an isolated event anymore, in terms of where I was.

And I think the biggest part of meeting with you was we wanted to make sure that not only I had resources, but Nicole had resources as somebody who was married to somebody with struggles of pornography and, and trying to find the path that we wanted to go towards. So that was the main thing that Andy talked to Nicole about was that it wasn't necessarily just that I would be able to, to meet with you and talk to you and kind of find different solutions or things that I wanted to do to, to grow and get past this, but that Nicole would have a reference as well.

So,

Zach Spafford: So, when you think about how you were approaching pornography before meeting with me, within your relationship, what did that look like?

Joey: There's a lot of, I feel like we handled it different than a lot of couples did. I, or do, I was really adamant when we first met that I was going to be honest with Nicole, no matter what.

I had already reached a point where I felt like I was being honest with myself and with my family and my parents, my siblings, everybody kind of knew that I was going through this. So by the time I met Nicole, not saying that it was easy to tell her that that was something that I was had going on in my life, but I felt more comfortable because I had laid a little bit more of a groundwork with people around me.

Um, but that doesn't mean that it was easy. I think I had a perception of what it was like. And what it would have been like to be married, um, at that point, be able to, um, just basically let her in on it, but not make it her problem. But as we found out, Nicole was able to make it her problem pretty easily.

Nicole: Yeah, so it was one of those when I was like super grateful that he was always open with me, but then I would spend days basically being offended at what he told me if he ever did have a date where he looked at porn.

And so yeah, I got to a point when it was just kind of like, I definitely made it all about me on my side when I was trying not to make it worse for him, but it was, I just kind of had no idea how to handle my own feelings with it, and it was affecting our relationship negatively because of that.

Zach Spafford: How was it affecting your relationship?

Nicole: I think like, I was not, maybe not openly mad at him all the time, but I think there was like an undercurrent of, I'm really annoyed with you because of this, and I think you should know that, but I'm not gonna say it, but just know we're not in a good place.

Joey: I think we had a lot of, underlying problems that now being able to look back, it was really easy to tie it to, um, to pornography, mainly because of miscommunication and misunderstandings in terms of, like, how we felt about it and how, how we talked about it.

Because when, when I said that I would let Nicole know every time that something would happen, I basically would say, hey, just as a heads up, I slipped up today. And that was it. There wasn't any other discussion around it. It was just kind of giving her a heads up. And I thought that that was. All that was really needed to let her know what happened.

So she was aware if I was kind of off or in a, in kind of moody or whatever it ends up being. Um, but as we went forward, it was, it was pretty easy to find out at the very beginning of all this, that our, while our communication method wasn't necessarily bad, it, it had a lot of faults in it that, that could have made things a lot better if we, once we had a better foundation in terms of how to talk about it.

Zach Spafford: So when you say that you would communicate with her, but there wasn't really, anything of substance to it. What, Nicole, what were you looking for?

Nicole: Um, good question. I feel like, I mean, he always seems sad about it, but I guess in my opinion, it was, He wasn't upset about it enough, like, because it kept happening or things happened.

So I thought, oh, well, if it was this big of a deal for him, as it is on my side, like we wouldn't be having this conversation as frequently as we are having. Um, and we would be like talking to a therapist or doing something. And so I think in my mind, it was that I felt more upset about it than him, which I'm sure it was not the case.

And we were just upset in different ways and he'd just been dealing with it for longer and just was trying his best to not let it affect his everyday life with me.

Zach Spafford: Right. So he's seeing it and like moving forward as quickly as possible. Meanwhile, And he's still upset about it. Meanwhile, you're learning about it and you're not moving forward as quickly as possible, because you're like, "how do we stop this?

How do we, how do we solve this? Hey, come on.

If we're not upset about it, we're pretty, we're clearly not doing the work." Right.

Nicole: Totally.

Zach Spafford: So how did this, how did this impact? You know, just the way that you guys liked each other. Like what's a...

Joey: Good question. Um, I think for me, when there were stretches where I, there wasn't, when I wasn't viewing anything, um, which I will say at the very beginning of our marriage, it's kind of the. The fallacy of thinking that, oh, as soon as this is going to happen, then this is going to be the catalyst where I'm not going to want to do it anymore, or whatever it ends up being.

And I mean, at that point when I met Nicole, I, I, I mean, I'd have like 15 years of experience of, of using that as a coping mechanism with basically everything in my life. And so when I met Nicole, I had gotten to the point where I had been using it so much, it was really easy for me to just kind of brush it off and say, ah, it happened, I'm bummed about it.

It usually would make me moody for the next couple of days, but it wasn't kind of the end all be all because it was like, it's just kind of part of life at this point. It was kind of the point that I had gotten to. Um, and, but it definitely, when there are stretches, when, you know, I mean, I can easily look back at the beginning of our marriage and see it wasn't just because we were in this honeymoon phase of marriage and we were so excited to be married.

Obviously, that was a big part of it, but I think because I had had such a long stretch of, Not using that as my coping mechanism and using talking to Nicole or leaning on her as my mechanism of choice when I was angry or sad or bored or whatever it ended up being. Um, I think it brought us closer during that time, but then when I kind of reverted back to it after a couple months after we'd gotten married.

Um, so, so our, in my opinion, our mood, and I think Nicole would agree with me, the mood of our household is very different. Um, when something happened. And it's very different even now, comparatively now to, to four years ago when we got married, when something would happen just based off of where we are in the basis of our communication, all that kind of stuff.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, so what is the difference? Like, as you've done this work over the last nine months, what, what is different now than it was a year ago?

Nicole: Um, probably, well, I mean, I feel like it's a little different on my side, but I guess I'm, Seeing it on my side a lot more, but I feel like being able to make it less about myself. I feel like in the beginning, it was all like, "well, well, if I was a good enough wife or if I was fulfilling him sexually, then we wouldn't have this problem.

Or if I was pretty enough or whatever it might be." And so I think being able to take myself out of that and knowing like, that's not the problem. That's not why this is happening.

Joey: I want to clarify that none of those things are problems, but we're doing

Nicole: well Um, so yeah, I feel like that changed it a lot so that when he would tell me something would happen, it wasn't, I'd be all crusty at him and then also like kind of tearing myself down because I had all those thoughts about myself, which then would cause me to be mad at him.

And so I feel like, yeah, there's just a lot less anger around it and more like, okay, let's figure out why and what to do.

Zach Spafford: So the impact on you has shifted dramatically. It's very much less about you than it is about what's going on for him.

Nicole: Yeah, for sure.

Joey: Yeah, I think another big part of it too was that we used Nicole as basically my bodyguard from pornography for a long time.

Because through a lot of different programs and things that I had taken, the, the sentiment is get stuff off your phone, put up blocks, have a buddy, all these different things, which aren't necessarily bad mechanisms, but the, the mentality behind it is the important part. And we used, Nicole having passwords to my phone that I didn't have so that we could block apps or downloading certain apps or viewing certain websites or all these different things.

We use her as this sentry to not allow me to do these things. And it wasn't necessarily a A give and take and the communication of why we needed those things. It was just more like oh well Now I found out that this is an app that I can find a way around it or whatever So we need to block this app now and we need to block this app now and it turned from communication and relying on one another to this game that I had with myself of "Well now that this is blocked and I want Nicole to be able to feel comfortable blocking things I need to find a different route to do something."

A big part of it was talking to you, and it was kind of shocking, I think, when, when you basically were like, every block that you have, get rid of it, get rid of, get rid of your blocks, get rid of your passcodes, like don't have Nicole be this bodyguard for you. And it was really weird at first to have that kind of freedom, I guess you could

But inside of the freedom, I think we found a much more a box that we wanted to create for ourselves in terms of where I wanted to be and where she wanted to be and us in our relationship in regards to porn, as opposed to this box that we felt, that I felt like we had to create because morally I was supposed to, or societally I wasn't allowed to be doing those things and it wasn't appropriate, or in our marriage it was going to make Nicole mad or whatever it ends up being.

So we had to create these boxes smaller and smaller and smaller that I wasn't able to get out of, as opposed to. Choosing to create our own box and where we felt comfortable for it to be.

Zach Spafford: Well, and Nicole, how did it feel to be a failure all the time?

On a weekly basis.

Nicole: Yeah, it was frustrating and

disappointing.

So yeah, I think, yeah, that made a big difference on my end too, where it was kind of like, oh yeah, this isn't. My job, like I'm just here to support.

Zach Spafford: Right. Right. So now you go from being the bodyguard to being just like, Oh, an interested party, no doubt an interested party, but like, Oh, I'm not failing. I imagine at least some of your frustration was in this sense that I'm doing my job, I'm doing my job to the best of my ability and it's still not working.

Nicole: Yeah, for sure.

Joey: I basically was a really bad employee is what it came down to. I was an employee that did all they could to not do their job and she was doing it perfectly is kind of what, where it was, but.

Zach Spafford: Well, and as you decided like, okay, this is the box I want instead of this is the box I have to have.

How did that shift your way of operating Joey?

Joey: It didn't at first. And what I mean by that is, is when we took away all these blocks and did all these things and I had this freedom, it was really scary at first, to be honest. Because all of a sudden I went, I had to be totally honest with myself and basically say, Am I going to choose to do this today?

It wasn't like, Oh, am I going to find this loophole? And it became this game, it became this, if I want to do it, I can do it. And I can easily just go, go look at things if I want to. And so at the very beginning, it was, it was, It was, yeah, it was scary is really the only word that I can think of how to, to phrase it.

Um, and as I moved forward with it, um, and as I found this new box, um, it's still not perfect, obviously. I mean, Rome wasn't built in the day. I'm not, I any other kind of cheesy thing you want to say, like it, it didn't change overnight and it's still not. Perfect. There are still, I still struggle with it. Um, but my mentality towards it is, is so vastly different than it's ever been.

In any part of my life because I've finally gotten to the point where I realized like if I choose to look at something I didn't slip up. It wasn't an accident. I didn't all of a sudden trip and then all of a sudden there was something in my face. Like, like I clicked a button and I made a conscious choice to do it and if I decide to do that then I decide to do it.

And this, this ownership, um, Has really been a really huge part of it in terms of feeling like I own my own experience and being able to, to have the duality with Nicole of, while obviously neither of us wants it to be a part of our lives, especially at this point, um, that even if there are times when I feel like I need to do it or want to do it.

Obviously, Nicole is never going to say, oh yeah, go for it. That sounds like a great idea. You should really go spend hours. It's going to be a great idea. Like, I, I feel like we can have a much more open conversation now about why it happened and when it happened and what I was feeling, and I don't feel like I'm judged at that point because we have a much better communication between us in terms of, you know, What that looks like and why it happened and no, there, it feels much more like a judgment free zone.

Like, I feel like Nicole doesn't judge me for making that choice because there were circumstances or whatever it ends up being that I felt that I wanted to, to do that in that moment. And then I feel like I'm not judging Nicole for being mad at me or, or being in a mood because I did something and making it about herself and all these different things.

So,

Zach Spafford: well, and I think that that's really important. Reality to note, right? Like the intimacy that is available to the two of you is so much more significant than, than it was before. Not being able to really talk about it, not really being able to know each other and map each other. And there's all this, I mean, I think you said it earlier.

It's like, we didn't really communicate about it and now we can, now we can actually have a conversation without everybody losing their marbles as it were.

Joey: Well, I think for me. Um, it was really easy to see the connection between, like, physical and sexual intimacy and when we would struggle with that. And when I was highly using pornography because it, it, it would separate us in that way.

But I have, have had my eyes open so much to how much we missed emotional intimacy or mental intimacy or social intimacy or spiritual intimacy and all these different areas of our lives that maybe we're taking a backseat because we were focused so much on, oh, well, we're not together right now because of this or whatever it ends up being.

There was, it was affecting so many other parts of our lives that I think we didn't even really process or realized until we got further into this and went, oh man, maybe that's why this is happening, or that's why we talk to each other this way, or whatever it ends up being with that.

Zach Spafford: As, as you shifted into being able to talk to each other more fully, as you were able to create this real meaningful intimacy, not just physically, but spiritually, mentally, and emotionally, where did the porn struggle go in the list of like, oh, these are the things we got to think about and worry about every day?

Joey: Yeah, it definitely dipped down the list. Like, I think porn was basically, seemed like a 24 7 conversation. It was always on the table. It was always something that ended up getting talked about. And if it wasn't being talked about, we both were thinking about it pretty extensively.

And then on the Cole's mind, it was always like, well, this hasn't happened for a while, which means it's probably going to happen. So now I'm worried about it. And so, and going back to your question, like we're able to have. Whole conversations and whole dialogues where that doesn't become the root of the problem.

The root of the problem is our communication or where we were in the moment or there are certain moves finding the base levels of things without being able to just blame it on porn and walk away from whatever was happening at that moment.

Zach Spafford: So the answer stopped being, "Oh, well, this is just cause you have a porn problem."

It started to be, let's deal with the actual problem. Say that again. I said, it became just, I'm just a problem. Right. So, so Nicole, like what shifted for you when it stopped being just about porn? Like all the time you spent thinking about, Oh, Joey's got this problem and I need to somehow solve it. Like what shifted for you?

Like, what does that look like now?

Nicole: Yeah, it feels, I can just worry a lot less, even though, I mean, it still happens occasionally. It does, it is less frequent. But I feel like, yeah, there'd be times when I would, he would be in a bad mood and it was like, I would just assume, oh, it must be because this happened, or when I'd like go out with friends for a night and Joey was home alone, I'd just, I'd be worried, and now it's like I'll go and I don't think about it, and if it happened, it happened, and if not, so it's, I think it's just a relief on both of us that it's not like, oh, this isn't, you know, The constant theme on our minds.

Zach Spafford: Let me ask you, if nothing else changed for the rest of your lives around this pornography struggle, like same frequency as it is right now, would you be able to still choose each other and like each other?

Nicole: For sure. The first week you asked us that question and I was much less quick to answer.

Joey: Yeah, it was interesting thinking back on that. Yeah, because I remember that conversation, and it was very much more Nicole saying, well, you could, you could, I could feel it was almost like she was, now she was being stronger and into it, but it was kind of like, well, of course I'm gonna stay with you, but There's a big you better fix this problem Right and and now the the thing is like yeah, like why wouldn't I and man to be totally honest the the comfort that brings me in times when I'm really struggling or in times when I have multiple days where something happens and not feeling like I did when we very first, kind of, met and started where I went, if I slip up, this is done.

Like I could, I could throw this away at any moment because of this problem that I have. And, and knowing that the, that it doesn't define me anymore. Um, in terms of our relationship, in terms of life, in terms of my mental health and all these different things is leaps and bounds better and kind of amazing comparatively to where I was even a year ago,

Zach Spafford: I mean, the truth is you're not perfect.

Do you feel like you have the tools to put this in a place where at some point, you know, it's been what? 16, 17 years of viewing pornography. Do you feel like you have the tools to put porn in a place where it's no longer even a temptation or a problem?

Joey: Yeah. I would totally say that. Much more than any other, like I referenced before, any other program, therapy, discussion, or anything along those lines, just because I feel like I wasn't getting to the root of the problem. The root of the problem that I've gotten to is, where am I in the situation? Where is my mental state?

As opposed to just going, oh, well, it's circumstantial, here I am. With Instagram up on my phone and here are these things that pop up in front of me or whatever ends up being, um, now having a better understanding of the why behind it and, and feeling much more comfortable at being open and honest with myself, even the progress that I've made in the last nine months or year has been amazing comparatively to even the other stints that I've had, where I've done a lot better in terms of frequency, quote unquote, but my mentality towards it was still really, really poor.

And so I definitely think that, yeah, a hundred percent is where I feel like I am.

Nicole: Yeah, honestly, that's, we've talked about it several times. We're like, I wish. Like, this person that we know could talk to Zach, and this person that we know, and they don't even have porn struggles. It's like, we just wish that other people could learn how to do this, because it's really helped us with our communication.

And, like Joey mentioned, kind of getting to the root of some other problems that was like, Oh, this is actually a problem, and it's not, it's not the fault of porn. So I feel like we've, Like our communication is a lot better and a lot of things that we're able to go through, um, to solve any problem. It's like, oh yeah, well, we'll be okay.

And I would, before would have thought that like, yeah, Joey and I have good communication. Like Joey just helps me communicate. He makes me talk and all of this, cause I'm quieter. Um, and now it feels like, okay, yeah. Like I actually have the tools that both of us can be open and, and figure out whatever it might be.

Joey: I think if you were to ask either of us, Before we started this, if we had marital communication problems, both of us have been like, no, like we're pretty good. Like we don't, our, I would say our baseline was like, we don't really fight that much and we're pretty open about how we feel and that's kind of.

That's kind of it. And now looking back, I'm like, oh man, like, there are so many things that we have conversations that I wish we could go back on and, and, and, and dive into deeper that now we feel like we have, I feel like we have more of the tools of to be able to do that where we didn't before. So.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, I love that. I love seeing the growth, uh, in your relationship. I mean that vulnerability that comes from really being known and really being able to say, this is what's going on for me without needing the other person to manage you in some way, which I think is a lot of what was going on early on.

It was like, let me manage you and let you manage me and we'll, we'll be fine. We'll hold this together. But now it's much more like, no, let me tell you what is really on my mind. And I don't need you to solve that for me, but I need you to know who I really am. And I love that, that shift for you. Cause I think it's a huge difference.

Nicole: Yeah.

Zach Spafford: What would you tell somebody who's in the position that you were in a year ago? What would you say to them?

Joey: Kind of like what Nicole said. I'd say, well, first of all, drink and take a big gulp of the Thrive Beyond Pornography Kool Aid. Cause we, we drank the Kool Aid and we'll tell everybody about it.

Cause

Zach Spafford: it'll ship it to your house. Big old jugs of it.

Joey: We'll go out on the corner and we'll, we'll hock it to people. But, um, um, well, kind of like what Nicole said, taking kind of a step back of, well, one, we would tell anybody that. Your relationship can always improve and that there's all, there's always room for growth in your, in your communication, no matter what struggles you're going through.

And then on top of that in terms of pornography, I would say that as somebody who's dealt with it and has struggled with it and has gone through the gambit of being really, really isolated and being really, really open and everywhere in between and going through, um,

The side of being really, really open with people is scary at first, but is so rewarding in the long run and that.

Nothing can compare to the freedom of, I, I sent my entire family a group chat, a group text. I had told individuals, I had told my parents at one point they knew, some of my siblings knew, some others didn't. None of my in laws knew, right? And I basically, I drafted this huge long text when I was like, I'm kind of done hiding this.

And I sent this massive text to everybody, and I went, wow, that feels so great to be able to know that I can be a little bit more open with who I am as a person, and feel like I don't have to hide this portion of me, and that when other people are struggling, or, I've had siblings now come to me and say, When my son inevitably sees something, I'm so glad that I have a resource now that I can say, you should go talk to Uncle Joey about this, because he's dealt with this, or he's seen things like this, or whatever it ends up being.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. And I think there's so much freedom in that vulnerability of not, you know, of not being hidden in any way and just being able to say, this is really me. I'm not perfect. And I can see that I'm not perfect. So I'm willing to grow and do the things that it takes to keep going in my life. But. I want you to know who I really am.

And I think that's beautiful. It's magical. Nicole, what would you tell somebody who's where, who's where you were a year ago?

Nicole: Yeah. Um, I think one thing for sure is that. I think it's normal to probably have feelings of, like, hurt or shame that maybe a spouse feels when their spouse looks at pornography.

Um, but, realizing that there is hope, a year ago I thought it was slim odds that we were gonna have much improvement in this area. Um, so right, if you can find the right resources and things like that. And realizing that the problem isn't always maybe what you think that It's probably not about you. Um, this problem might have, yeah, it might have existed long before they knew you existed.

And, uh, Even, even after marrying somebody or dating somebody or whatever, they, uh, there's something deeper there and it's probably, probably not the feelings of shame that you think are the reasons you should be sad about it.

Zach Spafford: There's, yeah. What do you wish you had known a year ago that you know now?

Nicole: I wish I would have known, I think I would have just, I wish I would have known and talked to Joey about why it was happening more rather than just assuming I'm failing at something. Like, asking him, kind of like, what, what goes through your mind before, and then what I realized, Oh, he's never had the thought before.

No, Nicole is not good enough, so that's why I'm doing this. Because honestly, just, it was, Darcy went through and she was like, Okay, what do you think, what do you think, and what do you think he thought about before? And like, all of a sudden it just like flipped in my mind. I'm like, no, he's never. And I talked to him about it and I said, I don't think you've ever thought this.

He said, no, that thought's never crossed my mind when I choose to look at porn. And so it was just kind of like, wow,

who

Nicole: knew? So I just could have asked him

Zach Spafford: what, what has knowing Joey better done for you and your relationship?

Nicole: I think it has made me a lot more compassionate at first, rather than just being angry about things.

I stop and think like, oh, well, that's got to be, this has been a hard week for Joey, or this must have been a hard day for Joey. Um, and rather than getting on my high horse, I think, oh, I love this man and I don't want him to hurt or struggle with that. So what can I do basically instead to help him instead of getting mad and taking things the other direction.

Zach Spafford: Which is so extraordinary because it's not a, you know, I think a lot of people, they feel like if we don't get mad about this, then we're not going to solve this. And I have to like, not, maybe punish isn't quite the right word, but I have to show my displeasure in some way. And. What you're saying is that's never actually helped.

Nicole: Yeah.

And I tried

Nicole: for years.

Zach Spafford: I tried that so much.

Joey: She was really good at it too.

Zach Spafford: And, and now it, the, the struggle is less, you guys are closer and you don't have to sit there and be grumpy about everything. How has that shifted things for you, Joey?

Joey: Well, especially in terms of telling her, like I was telling her a lot out of obligation initially, you know, of, Hey, as a heads up, this happened because I needed to, because I was supposed to, as a good husband.

Zach Spafford: You were doing your duty.

And when she's sad, it puts me in a bad frame of mind, which leads me to more pornography, which makes her more sad. And it was just this death spiral that I couldn't, I didn't feel like I could really get out of. Um, and so, yeah, it was, it was hard in terms of where that was and to see where it is now. To, to know that I can go to her and want to go to her face to face, like not feel like I'm scared to tell her at this point and just say, I mean, it's still not a great thing.

I don't love telling you that something happened, but it feels much more like I can go, Hey, just as a heads up. And she goes, Oh, I remember the biggest change for me was there was one day where, and I think it was shortly after she talked to Darcy one time and I texted her. I was still hiding my texts and I texted her and I said, just as a heads up, I chose to look at this today.

And in the past, her response has always been, well, that's unfortunate, or that's too bad, or something like that. She just sent back, hey, I love you.

And the The difference that that made in terms of like my mentality of knowing that I have somebody on my side versus somebody who was kind of pushing against me or looking down on me for, for doing something that I wasn't supposed to.

Zach Spafford: Yeah.

Joey: That, that day, I haven't really emphasized this with you, but.

That day was a big switch for me in terms of feeling like we've made lots of progress in terms of where I felt like we were and where I felt like Nicole felt like we were moving forward and it felt like there was this light at the end of the tunnel on that day, but

Zach Spafford: I love that. I love that for you guys.

I love that because you guys did this work. You, you can really like, not just, not just, you know, Nicole's not just your confessional, but she is your partner in this. She is your person who you work with because you want her to be intimately informed on the details of your reality, not just, Hey, I'm bad today, you know, and then get beat up over it.

Yeah, I love that. I think you guys are doing so well. I'm, I'm like, I just love the work that you guys have done. I love how far you've come in the last nine months. And I, you know, it's been such a pleasure to work with you guys. Is there anything else that you would want to share with somebody who is out there listening to this?

Joey: Um, I, I would say that like anything, again, to use another kind of cheesy stereotype, but like the first step is always the hardest. Um, and the second step can be just as hard and the 10th step and the 100th step.

And what, however many times you step and fall, it's always going to be It can always be viewed as being difficult, I think is the important part. And the, I think the thing that we would probably agree on is that the mental state of our mentality towards around it is what's shifted the most. Like frequency, yes, has gone down, but it's a direct result of the mentality around it. Versus just because frequency went down, didn't all of a sudden mean that we had this great perspective on everything and everything was hunky dory and everything was going well.

We had to switch our mentality around. How we communicated, how we viewed things, how we saw things as individuals, and as a couple, how we talked about things. And once we got to that point, And as we keep going towards it, that mental toughness kicks in more and more. And then it gets to a point where when something happens, it doesn't become this thing that destroys our entire universe, universe, like it did before.

Like it, it got to the point where we couldn't even really like talk about anything, like I said before, because basically it was the only topic of discussion. It was the only reason why things were going bad or why things weren't going good was because it revolved around this. And because we have a different mentality towards around it now, and that it doesn't destroy every single day, every single week, every single moment of our lives, it, it becomes.

Yep,

it's just something that is part of our lives and something that we're working through, but it's not the end all be all of every single thing that we do every single day in ThinkAbout.

Nicole: Yeah, I think also you hear a lot of, uh, if you watch porn or if somebody that you're married to watches porn, therefore this is going to lead to this, and then this, and then this, and then this, and realizing that's not the case.

That could be the case for some people, but it's not this automatic thing that you have to fix before somebody cheats or before something happens. Like, everybody's different and it's not, it's not correlation necessarily.

The gateway drug is a lot of the other things versus just the result. Pornography and porn usage is the result of, of those things. It's not the cause of a lot of things. That's where my, that's really where my growth and my mentorship came from, is that pornography was the problem. And now I realize that Porn is the result of the problem and the problem can lead to a lot of different things.

Just in my life, it happens to be porn because of what I was introduced to earlier on.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. Brilliant. You guys are awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I know that people are going to benefit from it and, and this is going to help them do the same thing you're doing. Not lose their relationship, not feel like everything is going to fall apart because, you know, this one problem is part of their lives.

And, I think that, uh, I think that you guys have a really bright future as you continue to do this work. You guys are amazing. Well, thank you guys so much. Oh yeah, absolutely. Thank you guys so much for listening. And, uh, and I hope you all enjoyed Joey and Nicole. Um, please feel free to share this with somebody who needs this story and I will talk to you guys next week.

Joey: Thanks.