I’m really glad you’re here because today’s episode hits that place many of us settle into without even realising... a quiet burnout. Enough to feel tired, a little despondent, maybe like you’ve lost your spark. I had Nicole de la Perelle from Encourage OT on, and together we lean into what burnout actually looks like.. its early whispers, and what we, especially as practice owners, can do before it becomes the roar. This one’s honest, hopeful, and full of practical stuff.

What We Covered

• Breaking down what burnout really is: exhaustion, cynicism/negativity, and reduced professional efficacy.
• Nicole's own journey into recognising burnout (thanks to an art therapist) and how hard it was to admit.
• Common myths & misconceptions in allied health: such as it’s all-or-nothing (you’re burnt out or you’re fine), it’s a personal failing (“if only I worked harder or was better”) and generational myths (“Millennials/Gen Z are soft” etc.)
• The stages of burnout, from early warning (“whispers”) to full burnout, and how often we mislabel those early stages.
• The factors beyond hours & caseload that contribute: job demands vs resources, workplace culture, feeling heard/seen, connection, supervision/mentorship, recognition.
• Isolation: even people surrounded by clients or in teams can feel isolated, especially if they're the only one doing certain tasks or working remotely / alone.
• What practice owners can stop doing to reduce burnout risk in their teams!!! Such as being defensive about feedback, waiting until something is “big” before acting, and ignoring small boundary creep
• What practice owners (and individuals) can start/keep doing, such as leaning into small changes: firm boundaries, carving out time for connection, rest, hobbies or small joy things, making connection points in the workplace: team lunches, welfare sessions, being intentional about checking in
• Recognising that rest (weekends, holidays) shouldn't feel like the only way to recover — if you need those just to make it through, something is off.

Metaphors that stuck:

• “Whisper” vs “scream” stages of burnout
• Firefly: glowing by gathering from environment, turning on/off light, sustaining glow
• Pouring from an empty cup vs pouring from overflow

Thanks for going through this one with us. If anything here hit home... maybe you thought, “Yeah, that’s me… and I’ve dismissed it too long” , then this is your moment to lean in. Try one small shift this week: maybe it’s a boundary, maybe it’s checking in with someone, maybe it's re‑instating that team lunch spot.

If you want more support, Nicole’s work is GOLD! And if you ever need someone to bounce ideas off, reach out. You are not alone in this, and you do deserve to feel connected, supported, and less burdened.

Resource list courtesy of Nicole:

• Sydney Burnout Measure. https://www.naturallywith.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Sydney-Burnout-Measure-Questionnaire.pdf
• Utrecht Work Engagement Scale https://www.wilmarschaufeli.nl/tests/
• Job Resources and Demands Model https://www.wilmarschaufeli.nl/publications/Schaufeli/476.pdf And application in practice to NDIS space (as an interesting read!) https://nds.org.au/images/events/Banners_2022/BETA_NDIS_Workforce_Findings_Webinar_slides.pdf
• 5 Language of Appreciation at Work book https://www.appreciationatwork.com/books/5-languages-appreciation-workplace/

How to work with Nicole:

• Mentoring and supervision: https://encourageot.com/
• Burnout Course: https://encourageot.com/course/
• Workplace training: https://encourageot.com/

Foreign welcome to My Good Allied Health Practice, the podcast for allied health business owners who are looking to bring smart and heart together on their journey.

On the podcast, I'll cover things about being vulnerable and brave, pivoting failures, good wins, things that work, things that don't work.

And I'll talk with other practice owners who are doing good in their journeys.

I'm Amy Geach, practice owner and mum, and I'm here because I believe in you.

So let's go forward on this journey together.

Hello and welcome back to the podcast.

I'm Amy Geach.

Today I have a question for you.

Have you ever hit that point where you are feeling really exhausted, but not only are you feeling exhausted, you are feeling despondent, flat?

You couldn't give two shits about something that you normally would really care about.

You're feeling a bit glass half empty instead of glass half full, and a little bit what's the point of all of this?

They're not nice feelings to carry around and if you've had them before, you can relate.

You often can't work out what's going on.

You just feel in a funk and you expect yourself to be able to just snap out of it.

Like, what are you doing?

Snap out of it.

Have a rest.

Let's not work on the weekend.

Things will get better.

Just got to push through this week.

But you know what?

Sometimes they don't feel better.

And we can tell ourselves we're feeling fine, but perhaps we're not.

Now, these can be some of the signs of burnout creeping in.

And I know no one likes that word.

We don't want to put our hand up and say, I'm on the cusp of burnout.

But burnout is sneaky.

It doesn't always look like long hours or a packed diary.

It can creep in through our thoughts, our energy and our sense of purpose.

And that is why I really want to bring you today's conversation.

I recently sat down with Nicole De la Perel.

She is an occupational therapist.

She is a beautiful mentor, and she is the heart and soul behind Encourage ot.

And what I love about Nicole is she has this beautiful way of speaking right into the guts of burnout.

Right?

She labels it, she talks about it, and in a lot of ways she normalizes it.

And I think that's really important because we need to detach these previous.

I don't like the word stigma, but these previous conceptions we've had about burnout and why we don't want to put our hand up about it.

I'M going to put my hand up today and say there have been many times in my career so far as a practice owner, but even prior to that, when burnout has been sneaking around, me and I at the time often didn't realize, and not only did I not realize, but I also didn't know the tools.

Sometimes really simple stuff that could bring it back.

So I'm so excited to have Nicole on the podcast episode today.

And Nicole can really honour this idea of preventing burnout from the notion of being a therapist, but also a business owner.

And I think she brings this wonderful blend of knowledge into this space.

She knows what burnout looks like because she's seen it in other people, she has lived it herself, and she's helped others start to find a way through it.

So this is an honest chat, full of encouragement, and if you have ever thought something's not quite right, but I can't quite put my finger on it, I want you to stick around for what Nicole has to share.

And if you're a practice owner with staff, I really also want you to stick around and have a listen.

Because sometimes there are simple things we can do as a business owner to help prevent burnout in our staff, and they don't have to be massive things that are going to significantly dent the financial situation in our practice, which I think a lot of practice owners get frightened of.

So let's dive in.

And I want to share my conversation with Nicole from Encourage ot and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

Nicole, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

I have been really looking forward to talking to you today.

Thank you so much for having me.

Amy, I have been watching your space for quite a while.

Not stalking you, but just fangirling on all the amazing things that you are doing and you've really become this go to about burnout, but also burnout prevention in our industry.

And first of all, I want to say thank you for all the work that you've done in this space because I think it's a really, really important topic for us to be talking about so much more in allied health.

But I also want to start by asking you, why burnout?

What was the driver for you to really kind of invest more knowledge and get the community talking more about this particular topic?

Where did that come from for you?

Yeah, thank you.

I think that for me, I had a personal experience of burnout myself and so.

And I think I feel like burnout is something that's talked around a lot more lately.

And to the extent where I think lots of people at acknowledge that they're feeling burnt out much more readily, but back two or three years ago, that was much less the case.

And so when I, I guess, first identified that I was, you know, actually burnt out, and it was.

It was funny because it was actually not suggested to me.

It was suggested me.

Suggested to me by a therapist that I was seeing, an art therapist who I'd been seeing because I knew something wasn't right and I was struggling and.

And, you know, she had started some things during COVID and I'd gone along to a few of those and then thought, oh, this is kind of interesting to.

Or some different things.

And she had said to me, do you think that maybe you're burnt out or you're experiencing burnout?

And I was like, no, because that's clearly for, like, people.

That's what other people get.

That's not.

That's not what I get.

And, you know, and I've always been like a super passionate OT kind of thing.

So I was like, I know I'm, you know, I can't possibly be experiencing burnout.

But then when I started researching and looking at what burnout was, I was like, actually, yeah, this.

This is.

This does fit with my experience.

And so I guess as part of that, I then really felt, you know, I'm quite a nerdy person.

So I did like, a really deep dive into all the stuff about burnout and, you know, read lots and lots and really sort of started to, I guess, try and get my head around it because I felt if I could understand it, then maybe I could work out what to do about it for myself.

And like I said, as I did at that point, it wasn't as sort of, I guess, prominent about being acknowledged.

And so I think I still felt a lot of shame about being that person that was saying I'm.

I'm burnt out or I'm experiencing burnout.

And, you know, I. I just sort of didn't want to say that to people because I didn't want people to think that I was less of a therapist or less of, you know, because I still had.

Had the ability or the need to be able to work.

So I, you know, it wasn't something I could sort of just leave my job or go and, you know, do something different.

So I had to try and find a way to still be working, but with this sort of weight of this experience that I was carrying with me.

So I think that's, yeah, really kind of what drove me since is to try and highlight that, I guess, and bring some awareness to this is not something that I think sometimes people say I'm a little bit burnt out, and then maybe I just dismiss it.

Or I think we've kind of got the other flip side now, which is that everyone's burnt out.

And like, you know, in some ways I think of talking about it or sick of hearing about it, and I know some.

Some employers are like, I don't know what we can do.

And I know, you know, it just seem to be kind of quite prevalent.

And so it's sort of become like, you know, gone the other way now, I think, in.

In that sense.

But I think that really understanding it, and I guess that's sort of what I try and put forward, is really trying to understand exactly what it is.

And then the things that influence that from, you know, using some good occupational therapy models around, from, you know, what influences at a person level, at a job level and the environments in which we work, I think that can help us work out what we might need to do about it.

So, yeah, that's, I guess, sort of what's driven me to kind of be talking about that with the last couple of years.

Yeah, I love that.

And thank you for sharing your personal journey with that, because I agree with you.

I think years ago there was that stigma around burnout and it wasn't really spoken about.

And I think because we didn't have the narrative or really the words to have those discussions around it, I think those spaces got filled with, you know, those kind of assumptions and.

Yeah, are we the best version of ourselves if we're feeling this.

This burnout?

So I'm really pleased that you brought that up and I really love that you brought up about it almost now because we can talk about it more and there's a lot more conversations about it.

Does that put it at risk of being dismissed further than maybe what we had a few years ago?

Are you finding that.

That.

That people are, you know, you mentioned everybody's in burn.

Are we at risk now even as practice owners who have a team of going, oh, well, yeah, we've all got that, so let's just get on with it.

Like, do you find that?

I do.

I think that we're in a space where so many, I guess, of the bigger, you know, contextual, you know, environmental kind of factors are out of our control in terms of, you know, systems and processes and stuff changing.

So whether it be things like NDIS or the aged care system or, you know, I think cost of Living pressures and people's ability to afford therapy and things like that are all influencing allied health practice.

And, you know, and it trickles down to an individual level as well as I think at a business level as well.

And so I think all of that ramps up a lot of the pressure.

And so it has.

Therefore, you know, there's been staff shortages, you know, I think in almost every sector that I know of, you know, and.

And again, that increases workload demands, which again is a contributing factor to things like burnout.

And so has kind of become this thing now where.

Yeah, I do, I certainly do say that there's a sense of it almost being normalized.

Yeah.

That it, that it is that something that so many people will go through.

But I think the thing that concerns me as well as the helplessness that comes with that, because it's not necessarily just a sort of a dismissiveness.

I think there's still people that realize that it is serious or that it's not something that's desirable, but it's also because it's been normalized and it's something that lots of people are identifying, that they've experienced, experiencing or been through themselves.

It's.

Then why don't, you know, like, well, what do we do about it then?

Yes, yes.

Because everyone's got it and everyone's had it or everyone's going through it so well, you know, there's nothing we can really do to stop it, but.

And I think obviously there's many of those big picture things that we can't do a lot about controlling, but there's still things that we can do to prevent and manage burnout.

Yeah.

Amazing, Amazing.

I'm going to dig into those to you soon.

But one of the things I wanted to ask you about, and it kind of, I suppose, feeds into what we've just spoken about with like talking about it more and normalizing it more.

But what do you, what do you feel are still some of the myths about burnout in our industry that are.

That kind of still float around that you might, I don't know if you've had clients that you're working with have kind of these repeated messages about burnout.

But what do you hear in our industry?

That myths that we think.

Yeah, I think there's a couple of myths around there now.

I think one is I guess, this idea that, you know, I guess that you sort of.

It's all or nothing, so you're burnt out or you're okay, whereas I think there's plenty of gray area in the middle.

I know I kind of said that, you know, lots of people are saying that they're a little bit burnt out.

And I think that that sort of an acknowledgement phrasing is that there is space in the middle where we're conscious that we may be heading towards burnout or that we're experiencing some of the risks towards burnout.

But I still think that, you know, I think that people don't quite fully understand.

It's kind of like it's all or nothing.

I think is.

Is sort of one thing.

You're either okay or you're burnt out.

Whereas, yeah, there's definitely bits in the middle.

And I sometimes still say that, you know, I suppose, you know, I'm a recovering perfectionist and a recovering people pleaser and I'm a recovering burnout survivor kind of thing.

Because I know for me, the things that I had to do to kind of work through it, you know, things like holding firm to boundaries and taking care of myself are things that I have to practice every day, every week, or it.

It just comes.

It does sort of start to creep back in.

Yeah.

Sorry.

So I think that that's one myth, I think the other one is that, I guess, and one that I'm really passionate about, I guess, advocating against, is the idea that it's a personal failing, that there's something wrong with you.

And I think that's where the understanding that there are multiple factors that contribute to burnout.

So it's not just a personal thing.

It's not just an organization thing.

It's not just a job thing.

It can just be, you know, a combination of all of those things that can contribute to that.

So it's not, you know, it's not a personal failing on.

On a person.

There are personal factors that can make you maybe more vulnerable.

I've mentioned a couple of mine, like being a people pleaser or a perfectionist and having a tough, you know, inner critic.

But, you know, there's.

There's other factors that will also lead.

Can also contribute to that as well.

And I think the flip side of that is for allied health owners and businesses, I guess, is to realize.

Yeah.

That.

That if they have got a staff member that's identifying that they're experiencing burnout, it's also around.

You're not seeing them as less of a person, I think, but also acknowledging that, I guess that, you know, uncomfortably and awkwardly, that there may be some contextual factors within the workplace that are contributing to that.

Yes.

I think it's so easy for practice Owners to get a little bit defensive and probably not even realise that they're getting defensive if there's some identification of burnout in their team.

And I think in particular, I agree with you about those myths.

And, you know, it saddens me about the personal failure one.

And I don't think we're at a point yet where, you know, as an industry and even as individuals, controlling our own inner critic or, you know, nurturing our own inner critic, we're not at that point yet, unfortunately, of not going to that personal failure area.

And I think risks that I see with practice owners is if one person is showing some signs, it can be so easy to just say, but, you know, but everybody else is managing that workload fine.

So, you know, what's going on with you?

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think that saddens me.

Yeah.

The other myth, I would say, with this as well, which feeds into that, I think, unfortunately, is a little bit of the generational myth as well.

So this idea that, you know, younger generations, or I suppose, like, I'm a millennial and we're now getting a bit older, so we used to be, you know, kind of often be the child, I think, sometimes in the workplace, millennials, but now I think we're seeing, you know, some of the Gen Z coming through.

And there's this sense that I think that we're soft.

You know, these younger generations are soft, and they don't know what hard work is.

And we didn't, you know, we didn't have it like that, you know, and how good are we about all of these things that we provide that we didn't have when we were first, you know, coming out of university or something like that.

But I think that we need to understand as well, again, that there are other factors, bigger factors that are also contextual for those people, you know, for millennials and for our Gen zers that mean that there's other pressures and other challenges that they are facing that maybe in some ways may make them a little bit more susceptible to burnout, but also, I guess, can also be a chance to learn about how we might be able to do work differently, how we might be able to restructure work as not being maybe such a huge part of our previous, you know, like, I know my parents, you know, absolute workaholics.

And I think, you know, carried of that into my experience as well.

You know, maybe there's a new way that we can consider work within that context and learn from some of those other generations as well.

I think it's not that they're soft.

I think it's that they have a different value and a different idea of what they want to get out of work.

Yeah.

I love that you brought in about the different values, because I definitely see that play out.

And I think people are very quick to put labels on the generations, which, again, saddens me as well, because it is.

There are different individual characteristics in people, regardless of what kind of generation they're coming from.

And I agree.

I think we can learn so much from each generation, and how can we pave a way forward that isn't about just work harder to be more successful?

And I think we need to start kind of burying that mindset.

Yeah.

That is the kind of thing.

Maybe that's how it used to be, but that's not.

Certainly not how, you know, the younger millennials and the gen zers are experiencing it.

It doesn't sometimes matter how hard you work, you may be going to have some more financial pressures than we've ever had before.

Yeah.

You know, so the value for that of.

Of, you know, I'm kind of working for the man, if you like, is.

Is definitely different.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I remember.

Cayman, you spoke at our Mastermind, and thank you for that.

And you've also spoken to my team and.

And I love when you put the slide up, that shows the different stages of burnout.

And I think that is such an aha moment, because I think, like you were saying earlier, the myth around people thinking it's all or it's nothing, like you're in burnout or you're okay.

And when I saw that slide that you put up with the different stages, I was sitting at the back of the room in the Mastermind, and I just went, ah.

I've been in, you know, a stage of burnout at different times in my career, more than I actually realized.

And that was a big aha moment for me.

So can you talk to the listeners about those stages that you have identified as burnout stages?

Yeah.

And I guess it's important to acknowledge in that, I suppose that I'm going to go back one step first, which I expose.

Is that the official definition for burnout, I guess, from World Health Organization, in terms of being recognized as a syndrome, talks about three primary kind of characteristics.

So one is, I guess, exhaustion and, you know.

Yeah, just feeling utterly exhausted and tired.

And I guess, particularly, I suppose when we're talking about these in the work context, I think, you know, a sense of depersonalization, they sometimes call it, or cynicism.

Or sort of negativity that kind of creeps in as well.

And, and then the third component, I guess a reduced sense of professional self efficacy I think is what they call it, but I guess a sense of, you know, being able to make a difference and being effective.

And I think just relating that to myself to give you a bit of a picture of that.

What it looks like maybe towards the end stage is that when I kind of went through it, I guess I, yeah, definitely had that exhaustion and the tiredness and you know, I'd feel, I'd get the Sunday night dreads about the upcoming work week, you know, before it had even started and felt sort of tired about what I would face before I'd even got to the workplace.

I think I certainly felt a sense, you know, as I mentioned, I am a very passionate occupational therapist and you know, I'm a rehab OT by background.

And when I was going through the worst of it, I was working in a rehab space.

And so I really sort of, I guess started to almost doubt what the effectiveness of rehabilitation would be for people and for my clients and what I could be of help that I could be for them.

So it would be like, why is this person here?

I can't possibly help them.

There's nothing that's going to make a major difference in this person's life.

And so, you know, those kind of features, I suppose of burnout, which I think there has been research that shows that it is distinct to depression partly because of those sort of two other factors that kind of creep in, which is that, that cynicism and negativity, but also that, you know, that sense of, of being able to not sort of be able to be able to help or beneficial to people and things.

Yeah.

So I think that kind of helps set the scene then for the stages of burnout because I think we kind of see the fatigue bit is probably the bit that hits the most at the end.

Yeah, you know, it creeps in sooner, but I think in some of those stages it's like, well, if I can just make it to my holiday or I can just make it to.

I'm just going to make it to the Christmas period and then, and then, you know, when with a good rest and a good break, I'll be fine.

And sometimes that might be the case in those middle stages, but frequently I guess as we get towards the end that the, it's really the exhaustion that hits, but those other bits start to creep in sooner too.

So it's things like, you know, maybe having some Reduced engagement in, in work and starting to, you know, maybe not wanting to be around the team and withdrawing I guess a little bit more from other people.

I think it's around, you know, some boundary creep, you know, sort of starting to drop a few of those sort of self care activities that perhaps, you know, I used to do.

But you're like, oh, I'm just a bit too tired to go for my walk tonight or for me it's going for a swim.

I just, I don't know, I don't have the energy.

I won't, I won't do that.

And then you know, you do that one week and then you do that, that maybe the next week and then before you know it, that's not a thing that you're doing regularly anymore.

And you know, again, certainly I guess some of the other elements might be things like I don't know, certainly for me I would procrastinate a lot.

So I would, yeah, I'd be at work and I would.

Because I would be feeling like I don't know what I can do or I don't feel very effective.

I would then go around in circles about things and be quite inefficient I think at working out what to do.

But then I would feel really bad and so then I would suddenly have a burst of I have to do something.

And so I'd be procrastinating but then I'd also be staying back late and then I'd also be feeling like I was working all day and sometimes really long hours but I wasn't being very effective with my work as well.

So yeah, some of those kinds of things are some of the sort of I guess red flags that you might start to pick up on.

I think there's things like increased sick leave that starts to happen because as we I guess carry around more and more of that stress we do, you know, notice that we might be more.

Our immune system gets a bit dampened and we might start to, you know, catch more of the bugs.

Not to say that everyone.

That's offset because there's certainly lots of things going around where I'm at at the moment.

But you know, can start to have some of those sorts of things happen as well.

So sometimes we see some increase sick leave or absenteeism and things but I think presenteeism is just as bad that going and then not, you know, not really being able to be effective as well.

Yeah, yeah.

Do you ever see some of the signs being perhaps when find a staff member might push back a Little bit on, like, might be a new idea in the clinic, or this is how we're going to do this now, or what do we all think about this?

And you.

And sometimes I might see someone out of character just start to push back a little bit and not want to be doing that or find the negatives in it.

Is that.

Do you think that's kind of in that.

Those stages as well?

Yeah, and I think that's probably a great sort of midway example of that negativity or that cynicism start to creep in.

Is that, oh, like, what's the point in doing something different?

Or this is another new idea that the company that's going to be, yeah, eye roll.

I can see them.

Eye roll.

You know, that's going to be another thing that I have to deal with or to do.

I think internally they might be saying that.

And so, yeah, might start to push back a bit.

But I think as well, it's some of those things of, like I said, it's sort of the withdrawal.

So it's even like not actively, I guess, contributing to, to the, you know, perhaps to the growth of the organization or to, to the, you know, being actively involved or participating in things.

I, like, I've always been someone, like, I always take on doing lots of things.

Right.

And if I'm engaged in my work, I'm the one that puts my hand up to do different projects or I want to be part of that or, yeah, I'll be on a committee for that.

But, like, it's the total opposite.

I think when you're in that burnout mode, it's like, I don't want to do anything.

Yeah.

I'm just, you know, kind of surviving, just doing the bare minimum.

Yeah, yeah.

But then that can kind of become a vicious cycle too, because some of those other things might be more, you know, values aligned or more meaningful than the sort of daily grind.

But, you know, so it's really hard.

But that's, I guess that's probably another element to kind of understand as well is that the other side of burnout is work engagement.

And so you can sometimes when we look at sort of measuring things like this, there's sort of scales you can do to measure burnout.

But I actually also think it's really important to measure engagement in work as well, because that, I guess, is that flip side, which is how engaged you are is a protective factor, I suppose, against burnout.

So if you can contribute meaningfully and you can, you don't have to love every element of your job all the time.

But if you can feel that you're maybe making a difference in things, then again, that can kind of be that buffer against the stresses of a workplace.

Yeah.

Oh, I love that.

I love that.

That's really important.

Thank you.

Love that so much.

Okay, so really, I think there is.

Would you say there's a whisper stage of burnout and then like a scream stage of burnout?

Because there's definitely some subtle things that can creep in.

I think people don't identify it in themselves and that's perhaps why people are.

I'm not, I'm not burnt out and because I can't recognize those early signs when.

When you're in it.

I don't think.

Yeah, I agree.

I think that it's.

I suppose it's a little bit like, you know, pain or something.

You know, I think from a health perspective, in a way, it's like it's.

Pain is our danger system.

But if you ignore it, then it will just get louder.

And I think it's a little bit the same with this.

It's that, yeah, if you ignore some of those early warning signs or dismiss them or, you know, maybe don't have an appreciation of it, that, that exhaustion and those negative feelings will kind of build until.

Yeah, they become a scream and the roar that sort of says you've got to stop now.

And I don't think the answer is always you have to stop.

Like you have to leave your job or you have to leave the profession or something.

But I think that it feels like that because you haven't attended to all of those early stages.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree.

I kind of can feel like that's the only out exist is a big change and which might be resigning from a job or.

Yeah.

And I think it's.

It can feel.

I think that's.

Yeah.

Like where you said, like, you know, there's those whisper stages.

I think that's where, you know, I feel so passionate about if we can do some things there in those stages, then it doesn't have to get to that end stage.

And I think you're in a better position to maybe make good decisions.

Perhaps it, you know, because sometimes there is a reason to leave a workplace, but if, you know, if it's not values aligned or if there's particular things that you want to change and do, but when you're in actual burnout and that's not a great space to be making those kinds of decisions.

And I know for myself, like I did, I'm, you know, I moved from one job to another job to another job, carrying all of that burnout with me.

Yeah.

I went from a management position to a pure clinical position thinking, if I could just get rid of the management stuff.

Yeah.

Then it would all be over.

And if I'm just doing my clinical work.

Well, I love clinical work, so I'll be happy.

But then, like, that.

Was you surprised then that it came with you?

Yeah, yeah.

So surprised.

And then I left that role and went to work for university thinking, oh, all right.

Now I'm not doing client work.

That's the clinical problem.

It's the clinical problem.

Get rid of that, too.

Yeah.

And no, like, there.

It still was, you know, there.

Hello.

Yeah.

And then I'm added to that.

I've got, you know, you know, imposter syndrome about.

I'm teaching the next profession of therapists.

And I don't even know if I believe in occupational therapy anymore, because that's how burnt out I was at that point.

So, yeah, I think if I was to look back at that, I would think that.

I think still, in some instances, leaving was the right thing to do, but I think I would have handled much of that in a very different way.

Yeah.

And been able to do that much more, whether it was leaving or not, but be able to, I guess, make some of the changes that I've now made.

I think would have.

Could have solved a lot more, you know, sort of stress and drama than what I was going through and distressed back then.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love that you shared that because it kind of highlights that trying to just cut something big out and hoping it will just fix itself isn't always the answer.

And I often say as well, that it's not the big thing.

I just don't think it is the big thing.

Like, it can feel sometimes that can feel like, yes, you've made a decision.

So maybe, you know, leaving or, you know, having a long break or something.

It can feel, yeah, you've made a decision, and so there can be a sense of relief, but you haven't resolved the core issue at the center of that.

And so, like I said, it can either then come back or be revisited.

You know, it finds a way to represent something, like you said, you know, with the stages, you've seen a few different bits where that might have showed up in your life.

I think certainly when I looked at that in the midst of my biggest burnout stage, I was like, I can see where that's.

Some of this stuff has been throughout my whole career that I'VE been borderline several other times before.

Yeah.

But I can kind of, you know, now pinpoint what I could have probably done differently and like I said, be much stricter with myself.

Now when I see that, those sort of bits start to creep back in about what I need to do to get that under control.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

And I felt the same when I looked at it, at that slide that day, and I thought, oh, I've been labeling that all sorts of other things, you know, decision fatigue as a business owner or, you know, like, I've also had that Sunday night on the weekend to keep going because I probably don't want to go to work on Monday.

And then, you know, I've put that down to, oh, you know, well, I've just fallen out of love with my business, and let's try and, you know, get that back.

So I think that there's lots of other labels which sometimes can be the right label, but maybe other times it's.

I'm in that whisper stage and I need to do a little bit more focusing on myself there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

No, I think.

I think that's.

I think that's so true.

I really like the.

The whisper stage, too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I want to talk to you a little bit more about the whisper stage as a.

With my, you know, practice owner hat on with a team, because as I mentioned earlier, sometimes I feel it's really easy to get defensive or feel a bit offended or take things personally if team members, you know, raise stuff that maybe this is not working quite so well for them in.

In the team, like, could be, like, work hours or the way, you know, we service the clients or.

And I. I want to kind of tap into that a little bit because I think sometimes when that shows up for the practice owner, they're prob.

Already in some whisper stages of burnout themselves.

But I'd really love to kind of pick your brains about what are some of the other ways that we can kind of lean in as business owners to preventing it going from, well, even getting to whisper stages, but preventing it going further than that because I know a lot of people think it's just, you know, big, long days and big client lists, and if we just reduce billable hours or we, you know, try and keep that low, then, you know, kind of.

We've.

We've handled that.

So when people kind of come to us and still say that they might be feeling stressed might be a word that they might interchange with burnout, perhaps.

I know practice owners well.

I'm giving you all this stuff and it's above award wages and you don't have high billable hours you have to meet and you know, I'm giving you PD allowance and like there's just this kind of like misalignment there.

So let's start off, talk about what are other things that might contribute to burnout in a workplace.

It's not just like we strip away the big hours and the big caseloads and the complex clients, like, what else is there?

And some of the things I might have seen before is like that moral distress that comes into play where you might really want to help somebody, but you know, there's some red tape there that's out of your control and, and you can't do what you'd really like to do or what you feel that client needs.

I feel like some things like that come in.

What other things in a practice should a practice owners, you know, have in their mind that might lead to burnout?

Yeah, I think such a great question.

I think one of the models I sometimes like to use is called the struggles Work demands resource model, I think is one of them.

And so it talks about those two ideas of work engagement and burnout and how the job demands, I guess, that you have and the job resources that you have.

And how when there's, I guess a, you know, maybe more job resources than there are, you know, job demands that I guess that can lead to work engagement.

And then the flip side, I guess more job demands than work resources.

And.

But there's also the person that sits in there as well in terms of their own coping strategies with the job demands and their own personal resources.

So important to remember that it's always those two elements.

But I think that often, I think part of what you're talking about, I guess, is a sense that perhaps the business owner has provided quite sufficient job resources and that there's maybe not always a lot they can do about the job demands perhaps in terms of changing those.

And I think that, like you mentioned, I think that there's a sense of, well, if we lower, you know, we can't lower the billable hours any further.

We can't reduce the demands.

The client load is just the client load, you know, that context in which that is just what it is.

So if that bit is unchangeable, then we need to think about the other elements.

So what are those job resources that we can enhance or build up?

And they're often not what you think they are.

So they're often, I think I Can't wait to hear.

So I think that we can sometimes think, oh, job resources have to be, yeah, like the wage or the, you know, the PD benefit or the PD allowance.

But sometimes it's the connection within the workplace.

It's feeling that your voice is heard and that it's not just that you're part of something, I guess that you're part of something bigger than, than just you.

We know that, you know, values based work and connecting with your own personal why, but also the values of the organization is really huge around work engagement.

It can be things like, you know, making sure that suitable mentoring or supervision because just having that debrief kind of possibility can also be really helpful, I guess, at reducing some of that, you know, that stress and that carry, you know, that weight that people might carry with them.

You know, things like recognition as well and not downplaying, you know, the benefits of perhaps recognition type programs.

That's genuine recognition.

I think so.

And I think really people wanting to be seen and being so that's being seen and I think also being heard and sometimes it can be, we can't, you know, I hear you.

Maybe we can't do anything about that.

But you know, let's, you know, let's put that on the agenda or let's look at how we can incorporate that or, you know, I think, you know, there's things like that.

So I'm just thinking in terms of an example from that side of it.

I remember at the workplace I was working at when I was particularly burnt out is that one of the things that was, I guess, quite challenging from a culture perspective is that they would have this recognition kind of thing, right?

So they would be like, they'd be like a therapist of the week or something.

And you know, but yet everybody else and I guess, you know, that would go around on an email thing and it'd be a big sort of thing and they'd get a little, I don't know, chocolate package or something.

But yet, you know, there was none of that, that small recognition of really, truly being seen for the, you know, the value that they added to a team meeting and, and what they'd done in the midst of this very busy work period was actually stop having team meetings.

We had no OT team meetings during that time because we had to just focus on the client work, which is probably one of the worst things that.

We that could have had doing that.

You know, when the diary is really busy and we go, oh, pull staff meeting out.

Like it's one of the first Things, Things to go.

Yeah, I try not to but I, I have, I'll put my hand up.

I've done that before for sure.

Yeah.

And I know that like I can see it from both sides.

I totally that because obviously having a lot of people off the floor for that point of time, you know you can make a big.

Can be a real problem.

But I think, you know, that's might be the support structure that was just keeping someone hanging in there.

Yeah, that's right.

I love that you shared that.

I think a lot of practice the same it can relate to that one.

So I think about those resources that you can build in that can be not always huge things, but can be really meaningful things.

And you know, I think sometimes I think that I love some business owners that they sometimes go really over the top but then maybe sometimes expect a lot of gratitude for that.

So for example, I know a business owner that I'm familiar with, he does amazing like, like staff retreats.

Right.

And you know they may be like once or twice a year I think and they like, they go all out like and they're epic events.

But then I think sometimes feel really hurt that you know, with I guess like a monthly check in kind of thing that then they don't have more positive feedback in those monthly check ins.

But I think that it's around saying well that's an amazing resource.

Absolutely.

It's an amazing job resource that you provide.

But is that what, what's what the people actually need or want on that smaller, more daily basis?

Because it doesn't always have to be a big thing.

Yeah.

Again, one of my old bosses used to give out like a you know, $50 like gift card or something.

But then you know, you'd be called into her office at a minute's notice to have you know, beaten over the head with your billable target.

So it was like, you know, like I, I don't know how to make, what to make of this.

Right.

Yes.

And I think we have to look at I guess from some of that sort of side of it around appreciation and recognition.

There's a great book, I don't know if you've heard of the five Love Languages, but there's a, that's called the five Appreciation Languages which is by the same, the same people and it talks about this in the workplace I guess but you know that there's different people have different needs.

So some people like the word.

Right.

And, and I, I'm a bit of a words person.

So when my boss at that workplace Wrote me a card that went with my $50 voucher.

That meant a lot.

But then I was also really sensitive to, yeah.

Having strips torn off me because.

Because words would hurt for me on the other side of it.

So.

So thinking about what it is that that person actually maybe, maybe individually need to be recognized and seen and appreciated and valued in the media midst of.

Of that, I also think there's an element of, you know, I know that you.

You don't do this, and I know there's many other of the people in the connection that.

That aren't these sorts of business owners, but I certainly see in some of the bigger kind of corporate world that there's a sense of, like, I don't know, they may be arranged for everyone to have a massage on a Friday or person to go around and massage everyone's necks, but then, like, their culture within the organization is again, out of alignment with that.

So it feels performative or it feels like we've provided a, you know, a yoga session this month and like, we've ticked the box.

Yeah.

I loved you brought in the word genuine recognition.

I love that because I think sometimes we get caught up and we go for glossy recognition and we can miss.

We can definitely miss the mark.

And I remember years ago, I was like, I'm gonna start giving out more bunches of flowers to all my team.

Just randomly, spur of the moment, random act of kindness, start giving out bunches of flowers.

And was a little bit like, oh, like, I don't know.

They're not always that well received.

Until I worked out, two of my staff members hated getting flowers.

They hate, like, they didn't want that.

That.

That was like a burden to them.

They're like, oh, bunch of flowers.

And it was complete.

Like, if I got a bunch of flowers, I'd be like, oh, wow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I, like, I missed the mark.

Whilst it was nice for some people, other people, like, did not see that as a recognition whatsoever.

And so from that, it was really good, actually.

From that I designed this About Me survey.

I give it to all my new staff, and if people have been with me for a while, I get them to redo it.

And it just asks questions like, you know, so I. I know how they want to be recognized a little bit more.

And since I've done that, it's made a big difference.

And one of my staff members had written on hers in the last year, like, don't give me books.

Like, I don't like reading.

And I was like, I've given her heaps of books in the past.

So.

Yeah, I love that you have touched on this genuine recognition.

I think it's so important.

Yeah.

I think that's what that.

Yeah.

Languages of Appreciation talks about is.

Yeah.

Like maybe those people aren't gifts people.

You know, they're people that.

Yeah, the words might be more meaningful or spending time with you and, you know, you taking them out for coffee or something might make them feel really valued versus.

Yeah.

Versus the book or the bunch of flowers.

Yeah.

Yeah, I love that.

Let's talk about isolation in allied health, because there are a lot of people that can feel isolated even if they're coming into a clinic and the rest of the team are there.

One of my staff members said the other day she feels a bit lonely even though all the team are there because she's the only one at the front desk.

And so that can definitely feel like, you know, all day she's surrounded by clients and she's talking to them and talking to the therapist when they come out, but just not having the.

That other person close by throughout the day to have those little conversations with.

So that was really important that she shared that with me.

So I find even in a team, people can feel a little bit isolated.

But I also then think about the people who aren't coming into a central place and might work from home quite a lot.

And I know that's quite big in our industry as well.

So what's your experience with people and isolation and how does that.

That perhaps lead into burnout?

Oh, I think.

I think that's, you know, very significant.

I think that.

I think I do a lot of work.

I'm a sole trader myself, but I also do a lot of work with other sole traders and.

And sometimes with people that are looking to go into being a sole trader as well.

And I will circle back to your point about your reception admin person.

But.

But I think that one of the things.

Things that people are often concerned about is, oh, I really like being part of a team or I really want to be part of a team.

And that's really important to me.

And I think it's great to know that about yourself.

But I think that one of the things that I am really big on is that we need to make our teams ourselves sometimes as well.

And, you know, it's kind of like that idea of find your tribe, I guess, is that sometimes I think we can't always expect that to be done for us.

That's the tough love bit that comes with this, is that we can't always expect that to be done for us.

Sometimes you have to, to find that and make that for yourself.

And so, you know, I've got a number of different connection points and different groups and things that I'm part of on Facebook or on messenger or on little text chats and different things that I'm not, you know, I'm quite an introvert kind of person.

But there's also like a sort of an OT networking thing in my local area that I will go to because otherwise I maybe don't have that connection because there can be whole weeks where my connection is with my clients and, you know, maybe support coordinators or something over email, but not actually with another therapist that's maybe on the same level as me.

So I think that we need to, you know, look at how we can create those teams and things for ourselves, but also how we can enhance that, like I think from a practice owner perspective within your organization because obviously people, you know, can have maybe have things like staggered lunch breaks or stuff like that.

And so they're not always together as part of the team.

And obviously again, having everyone off the floor at the same time is a big cost for practice owners and things.

But I think that we need to think about, yeah, how can people have those connection points even if they're virtual connection points or, you know, other ways that they can feel part of something and have that support kind of base.

And so I do, I do think that that is, is really important from that debrief perspective.

I think the research also shows that, that, I guess obviously some of the challenges in teams is when again we've talked about sort of generational kind of thing.

But it can be hard being maybe the only millennial or the only Gen Z are in a team of much older people.

And so it can again, feel kind of lonely if you don't have someone that's on the same page as you.

I remember working for an organization when I felt like I was the only one that didn't have kids.

And I felt like, you know, everybody else had children in a family to talk about and I didn't, I didn't.

Yeah.

And didn't have that sort of ability to relate to them.

So I think, yeah, there's, there's, you know, there is real challenges there.

But I think that, you know, human connection is so important.

And you know, like you said, lots of people do work from home or isolated or virtual.

But I think there's ways that we can create some of those connection points and those check ins I've got a virtual coffee catch up scheduled with somebody later in the week, you know, where we've booked it into each other's calendar and, you know, bring along our cup of coffee and have a.

Have a chat.

Because, you know, we're both usually quite busy people, but we're just gonna have a point to catch up and touch base about things.

So.

Yeah.

And I would say most weeks go by where, you know, there's not a week rather, that goes by that I don't have a connection these days because I've had to make that for myself.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love that you've talked about building that tribe for yourself.

Yeah.

It's really important because we can get stuck in the, you know, this.

This isn't here for me, so.

Okay.

Not happy about that.

But, yeah, it's a good reminder that we need to keep looking and keep finding that.

Bringing that joy and connection into our life.

For sure.

I love that.

And I think it is hard.

Like, I will say, it is hard.

And as I said, I can say that from, you know, personal experience because as an introvert, and I know that you've got a bit of an introverted nature.

Introverts unite.

So it's hard to sometimes put yourself out there and do that.

And I know for me, historically, I think, you know, I've talked about sort of those periods where I have been in more burnout phases.

That would be the time that I would withdraw.

I would have lunch at my desk and I wouldn't go to the staff room because I didn't want to see anybody else.

But I think if I sometimes look back and think if I'd made myself do that, maybe I could have realized I wasn't alone.

Yes.

Yeah.

I share with you that in my two separate clinics, I've got one in Wagga and one in Tassie.

The one in Wagga, we feel very lucky.

We've got a room that everybody goes and has lunch in.

It's kind of like a meeting room, gather room.

We call it the O room.

I've even forgotten why we call it the O room, but it's called the O room, and they can go there and they all have lunch there together at the same time.

And one of the differences I've noticed is in just the way the rooms are set up in our Tassie practice, we don't have that luxury of having, you know, this extra O room down there.

And so when it's nice and it's sunny, not as often in Tassie, but You know, we'll.

We'll sit outside and have lunch at the same time, but if it's not nice weather, which is frequent, we sit inside.

And we used to kind of congregate in the waiting room.

But I've noticed recently it's people sitting at their desks having lunch, even though we're having lunch at the same time.

And I. I do see a difference between the two teams.

And so I'm at the moment trying to replan.

How can we do lunch a little bit different?

Where is a space I can make.

Can I create something or help them have an area that's a little bit nicer to be in and be all together?

So love that.

I think.

And I think, you know, like, if you'd said that to me back when I was in this phase, I would have.

I would have been like, oh, my.

God, like, why is she gonna make us do that?

You're gonna make us not have lunch at our desk.

And I have to go and be social.

You have to go and talk to people.

And I would have hated that.

And I would have found a way to book a home visit so that I didn't have to do it.

I love that so much.

I know.

I know having been out the other side, that actually that's really important.

And even if it's, you know, not every single day, that having those connection points as actually really critical is really vital.

Because otherwise, I think that you can get too in your head and too, like you said, too isolated and alone, when you can sometimes have that ability to not just be thinking about the work day, not just be in front of the computer, actually be talking about other things or realizing that you're not alone or that everyone's having the same challenge with that are really wing particular system or, you know, or they've got a solution to that thing that doesn't work or.

Yeah.

I love the lunchtime conversations when I visit the clinics.

It's one of my favorite part is we just talk about other stuff.

I love it so much.

One of the other things I love in my practice is we have something.

We call it a welfare session.

And we haven't had one for a little while, which I'm gonna.

Having talked to you today, I need to kind of bring that back.

But we've had it.

We'd had it for years, and it was a session where we all just all get on.

And because we've got the two clinics, we'd get on via Zoom, and we just have questions we would answer, but nothing to do with work.

So it's like, what miniseries would you recommend or worst date you've been on or like, you know, just really random stuff.

Really, like sometimes really funny stuff, but.

But sometimes, you know, just learning more about one another and having that connection.

I really loved having that.

So much.

So great.

We in a little Facebook group that I run for South Australian OTs, we had a post I popped up last week, which was just based on a chat that I had with a friend of mine, but was like, share like your OT confession.

Like, oh, I like that one.

We had some great stories about.

There was someone.

I won't identify them obviously, but, you know, she was talking about how she'd been walking across a car park carrying some equipment out to her car and like, her pants had fallen down, for example, and, you know, somebody else had reversed into a client's wheelie bin.

And, you know, I shared that one of my first experiences as a early career at was, you know, I was.

I was, you know, 22, living out of home, wasn't the world's best cook myself, but was doing a cooking session with a client with who was a young guy with a brain injury and like, he set the pan alight and there was a fire.

You and I had to then like, you know, confess to his parents when they came home that we created this little fire in their house and we put it out and it was all fine, but it was so much fun.

Like, I love that.

I love my OT confession is had a client one day come in.

I'd been seeing him for quite a while and I was, I think I was just quite distracted that day by whatever else and.

And I was measuring his range of motion of his finger and I was like, so excited.

I was like, this improvement is so good.

Like, nearly back to normal.

I was like rabbiting on how good his improvement was.

I was making sure I wrote down all his notes and you don't need to wear that anymore because your movement's so good and blah, blah, blah.

Anyway, I said, I probably don't need to come back anymore.

He got up to go and he said, oh, will you measure my injured finger?

I had completely measured a finger that was like, hadn't been injured.

And of course it was nearly back to normal because it was normal.

Oh my goodness.

I remember I was so embarrassed.

I was like, oh, yes, let's measure the injured finger.

Yeah, no, you still need to come.

Keep wearing that thing on there.

Oh, dear.

I still remember.

That was so funny.

Yeah, took it really well.

Which was good.

I want to ask you, from your age experience and your knowledge in this area, if there was something that you wish practice owners would stop doing to help prevent burnout in their teams.

What advice would you give us?

What can we stop doing?

It's probably something we don't even realize that we do.

Oh, I. I feel like.

Oh, I really don't want to offend anyone with this.

Just say it.

Let's offend them.

We've already touched on it a little bit, but I think I would encourage practice owners to not be defensive about feedback.

Yes, I'm with you on that.

And I. I've been guilty of being defensive back in the day because I felt.

Yeah, I don't even know where it comes from.

I think it's from feeling like I'm not good enough or I haven't done the right thing or I haven't been a good business owner because I haven't got it right.

I haven't got it perfect.

I think that's probably, for me, where it comes from and feeling like I've let a team member down and then just kind of going to that place of.

But I provide all these things for you, and I haven't ever said this, but can't you be more grateful?

And, yeah, it's not.

Definitely not how I think now, but.

But way back in the early days, for sure.

Yeah.

And I think I totally get it.

And I think, you know, obviously I'm in your group, so I'm part.

I'm friends with lots of business owners that have employees and things, and I totally know how much they love their staff members and their business and how invested they are in it.

And so I know, I do.

I know that they really, really care.

But I think that when you're defensive about feedback or things that, you know, information that's been given to you, I think that people can tell.

People can tell that it's because either you're going to appear hurt or you're going to be hiding that you're hurt or your attitude maybe is going to shift or change slightly towards that person.

Are they going to feel maybe some sense of coldness or something, you know, And I know as an employee, a previously, you know, you're very.

I was probably a very engaged employee, but probably somebody who's always got a thousand ideas.

And I remember I. I talk about this as being my Jerry Maguire moment.

So you have to be old to know the movie.

But he, in Jerry Maguire, he writes like a manifesto.

And essentially his manifesto is that they should spend more time with their clients and bill less.

Right.

And I effectively did something very similar.

It wasn't quite like that, that.

But I. I'd re.

Envisaged this whole model of how we could do things and, and wrote this up and I spent a lot of time in it and I thought I was in a position within the company that it would be well received because I was like an OT team leader and I had all these amazing ideas and I was getting feedback about, from my ots about things that they didn't like about, you know, how billing was communicated and stuff.

And so I fed this, I wrote this to thing and I fed this back up, up.

And then I just heard nothing from my boss for like a month.

Oh, a month.

That's actually a really long time.

Yeah, I just, I.

No feedback about the document?

No, not even.

I didn't even really have any conversations.

And so I felt that withdraw like I felt it and I was so acutely aware of it.

And I'm not saying it necessarily contributed to burnout, but I know that, that it certainly increased the stress and anxiety and the pressure that I was already feeling in that role.

And so.

And I probably have way more perspective now about how obnoxious that probably was to do that.

But I guess that bold.

But I guess at the same time, I think like I said, being friends with a lot of business owners, I think that sometimes it's.

It's worth remembering that the role that you're in as a business owner that you know your staff are not.

Not always your friends, sometimes they are, but they're not.

They're your employees.

They are sometimes going to view you as that and as, as the boss and as the organization.

And that that feedback is often not personal.

It's.

It's not about you, it's about the context.

And you are not your business.

And so that feedback is not about you.

And the same way that someone having burnout that's working for your organization is not your fault, it's the same thing that feedback about your organization or about how things are done is not always your fault or it's not always personally directed, but it's data and it's information that can give you a hint about what you could maybe do differently to support your team.

Yeah, I love that.

Yeah.

I try and have a philosophy where.

And I say it to my kids all the time, like listen to listen, don't listen to know when to say your, your bit or your defending bit.

You know, like listen to listen just for for that simple process, because so much more will come from that.

And one of the books in our Connection Book club that's about to be sent out, there's a chapter in it where the author talks about asking more about a particular thing.

And that's something that, over time, I've tried to bring in.

So I'm not as defensive and not taking things to heart is, you know, and I know Brene Brown talks about this as well, but it's like, you know, tell me more about that.

What else, you know, what else about that?

Because what I've learned over time, when people, you know, people.

I am the boss.

Of course people are going to see me as the boss.

It's not as easy to bring stuff up to a boss.

Boss, even if a boss is, you know, really nice, it's still.

They're still the boss.

And so sometimes what I've learned over time is even if somebody brings something up or there's feedback, it's not always delivered in a way that is all of the.

All of what they want to say or all of their ideas.

Like, it's often missing bits.

And so that's why I feel my.

Listen.

To listen.

And then, you know, what else is.

Can be really powerful.

Yeah, I love that.

I really.

I think that's so important.

And I think.

And I think sometimes just being heard is.

Is enough.

Sometimes, like, to just feel that you're really heard and that someone really cares genuinely what you think.

And even if you're honest and can't do anything about it, you know, just to feel heard and to feel that you, you know, that someone cared enough to listen to your perspective can be, you know, it can be enough sometimes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think we're very prone as business owners to be getting the busyness of stuff and know that we need to get back to that person about something they might have raised.

And it's on the list, but we just haven't done it yet.

But not realizing the impact of not even communicating that that's on the list, or, you know, we just go, oh, yep, that was brought up in staff meeting.

I'll do something about that in a couple of weeks.

But meanwhile, that.

That's.

That team member is, well, I was really brave and I brought that up.

And, yeah, nothing.

Amy hasn't even said anything.

So I think that's a really good reminder.

That story that you shared about your Jerry Maguire moment is even just acknowledging.

Yeah, I've noted that and thanks so much.

And they're really good comments.

It's time to ponder on it and like just even verbalizing to people.

I need more time on that so they know what, why there is a weight.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

So easy to forget that though when we're just.

That's my thing for practice.

Yeah.

What, what else might you say to someone and, and this goes back to what you're kind of saying at the start where people might go, oh, you know, I'll just have, I'll just rest on the weekend or get to the little holiday and have my little one week holiday and then, and then I'll be right.

Even if it's like practice owners themselves or for their staff members.

Like what, what's your advice on relying on that?

Yeah, I think there's something that like if you need your weekend to recover from work or you need a holiday to recover from your job, then I think that's kind of a sign that it's that there's maybe a bit too much because it's not that, you know, your job.

Like we talk about job demands and job resources.

Every job has their demands and every job is going to have some element of, you know, of depleting you and your energy.

And I often talk about managing energy, not time.

So you are going to have that.

But if you, you know, if you have get to your weekend and, and you're so exhausted that all you're doing is, is, you know, sleeping and resting and not able to actually do things that are meaningful and enjoyable and not able to maybe go out and have, you know, some social elements to the weekend or do something for fun or for leisure because you're just recovering then, then that's, yeah, something's got out of control.

Something's got a bit too much there because yeah, I think those are the bits that I think are often really important.

I think therapists are really compassionate people by nature.

And we often will put ourselves last, we'll put our clients first, we'll care for everybody else first.

And I think we often do that both in our work life but also in our personal life as, as well, until there's nothing left.

And one of my little things you'll know that I always say is you can't pour from an empty cup.

And so we need to fill that cup up and rest is only one of the things that we need to fill that cup up with.

There's so many other things that we do and we all might have our own thing that we need to fill our cup up with.

That's just for Us.

And so, you know, for me, and it just sounds really funny, but I think, you know, I always struggled with those, you know, like, you might have an icebreaker thing and people might ask what your hobbies were, and I would be like, I don't know.

I don't have any hobbies because it's like, I don't know, like.

And I think, you know, we don't have to have, like, you know, specific, like, I'm a crocheter or I'm a this or whatever, but I think that we need to have something that is other than work and, and whatever that little thing is that maybe brings you joy.

That's the kind of stuff that you need to be filling your cup with.

Yes, I love it.

Yeah, I think so.

I think that's what I would say is that, yeah, we need to find other ways, space to fill that cup.

And we've got.

If we look at, well, being, there's so many things, like, I think, you know, you've done an exercise before about looking at your wheel of wellbeing.

There's all those different sides of, of our life and of ourselves.

Whether it's things that stimulate us mentally, whether it's things that, you know, filling our social cup or filling our, you know, joy cup or whatever it might be.

You know, there's.

There's all those different things that we need to kind of look at about how we can.

Can use our.

Our free time outside of work to be fulfilled so that work is not the only thing that we've got going on in our lives.

I love that distinction between if you need the weekend to recover from your work, then something's amiss there, because I don't know what you think, but I wonder whether people have, like, struggle to identify.

Is this just tiredness or.

Or is this the whispers that we were talking about earlier?

So I love that you kind of brought that up and I love that you bring up hobbies, because I'm the same.

When I asked people about their hobbies, it's not uncommon for lots of women in allied health to say, oh, I used to do this.

I've done it in ages.

I used to do this.

I hear that all the time.

But they're not doing any of it now.

And I agree with you, there has to be something.

And I got into this habit of working during the week and then catching up on work on the weekend that I didn't get because I didn't get through everything on the.

During the week.

And I just had this moment.

It probably wasn't over, you know, oh, wow, here's a day where I've just had an epiphany.

I think it kind of gradually came over time that there will always be a lot of my to do list.

I'm just that type of person.

It will always be never ending.

It's.

There's no done point to my to do list.

And so I'm the only one that can make that change around the weekend.

And when I did start making the change and going, I'm not going to work on the weekend, like, and see how that goes, I really struggled because I was so patterned into working on the weekend.

I just didn't know what to do with myself.

So I would wander around the house.

I'd sometimes get a bit grumpy and say to my husband, like, I don't know what to do.

And he's like, I know.

I. I can tell you wandering around.

And he would try and give me suggestions.

And I'm like, why?

I don't want to do that.

Because it's, you know, you've suggested it.

It's not my own idea.

So this.

It was really hard for me initially, and I. I just want to share that story.

So if other people are so used to being busy all the time and busy on the weekend, if you.

If you're making that shift and it feels uneasy, like, what have I forgotten?

Or feel like I should be more productive, like, that's okay.

Just.

Just keep working through that.

Don't go back to the busyness, because it feels weird.

And.

Yeah, I. I definitely love a little project.

My project at the moment is I'm knitting a blanket for my dog.

I have realized it could be too heavy for him.

He's a Chihuahua.

And it's got some.

It's got some weight to it now, this blanket, and I haven't finished it yet, so anyway, that'll be interesting, but, like, it brings me so much joy and I don't have to spend heaps of time on it, but just.

I just have it there visible so I can see it.

It needs to be a queue and just sit down and have a. Knit a few lines each day.

It's good.

Yeah, I love that.

Yeah.

I was gonna say when you were talking about, you know, having your welfare sort of check and checking in with people about different things.

One of the workplaces I worked out where we.

We had a wall of our dog books where we put our pictures of our dogs up on the wall.

And that was in the lunchroom.

And, like, that was just a source of, you know, talking about other work, other than work things.

Yeah, that's a good cue to have to.

To bring that conversation in.

You're a dog person as well.

Definitely.

Definitely person.

I have loved talking to you so much today.

Is there any last things you would like to leave us with.

With around burnout?

And then after that, I'm going to ask you how people can work with you.

Yeah, I think, I think probably like I. I talked about, you know, you can't pour from an empty cup, which I think is really, you know, one of the metaphors that I love the most in this space.

I think one of the things that someone shared with me at the OT conference was also, I guess the concept of, I guess, you know, also pouring from the overflow, I suppose, so that we can fill ourselves up if we are fulfilled enough ourselves, that we can give from a space of, I guess, abundance or of generosity so that we're not constantly depleting ourselves, I think is another, I guess, element to kind of bring into that as well.

And in my talks that I often give about burnout, I often will use the.

The other metaphor of being a firefly, which is the idea of fireflies eyes glow from bioluminescence, which is something that they gather from their environment and they can kind of turn on their glow or turn it off.

Yes.

It's not at this idea of burning out, I guess it's around lighting up and being able to share your light and then restore that energy, I guess as well.

And there's a beautiful OT that's been working, doing some more work in this space as well.

And she talks about, I guess, burning in rather than burning out.

And so I think there's lots of different ways that you can kind of look at some of these, those different metaphors around this space.

But I think that the key element is that I think that there's.

It doesn't have to be something big, it doesn't have to be something dramatic.

It can just be lots of those little things and lots of little, you know, bits that we've talked about today that might be enough.

You know, I think for me it's just.

It just started with one.

Making one or two of those decisions about putting a firmer boundary in about the times that I was going to work, you know, starting and, you know, I'm going to go swimming once a week and I'm going to, you know, going to go and eat my lunch with other people once a week.

Just a few.

Just a few of Those things is what is where that journey back for me kind of came from.

So I think that's the message that I guess I always like to kind of, kind of leave people with is that it's, you know, burnout's preventable, it's manageable.

It's also recoverable as well.

Yes, I really love that concept of, you know, you can't pour from an empty cup and fill the cup up.

And what you were saying about being able to give more from a place of abundance and I, I really can see a tie in with what we were talking about earlier with the practice owners being defensive about, you know, feedback or suggestions.

And I feel like perhaps a lot of them are sitting there with an empty cup and just don't have that extra to give in that moment.

And I, I really believe that if we fill that cup up for ourselves as practice owners, then, you know, those bits of feedback and ideas and you know, things that come to us, we can approach them from that place of abundance and it's so much different when we do that.

So I'm really pleased that you brought that up at the end.

I think that's, that ties that in nicely.

Nicole, you do a lot of amazing work in this area.

So if people are out there listening and thinking, whoa, I need to, I need to chat more about this or learn more about this.

How can people work with you?

Tell us about that.

So I provide, you know, mentoring and supervision.

So individually, so both with I guess individual that maybe are going through burnout themselves or.

But I also have worked with quite a few business owners as well, so individually with them about how they can support their team.

I have, you know, delivered some presentations to organizations as you know, yourself, I guess around, you know, both, I guess from that perspective of, you know, this is, this is what it looks like and I guess, you know, presenting that to a team as a whole.

And some of that has been, some of those are custom designed with the employer around sort of some of the things that they kind, kind of see might be important to touch on depending on the demands of their particular context and things.

So we've had some that have had a bit more of a focus on like vicarious trauma and compassion fatigue and then others that maybe have a bit more of a focus on, you know, I guess a bit more on that sort of well being, personal well being and boundaries and self care and saying no.

So, you know, some, few different elements there.

I have a burnout course, so it's targeted probably more towards individuals as well.

But I do actually know a couple of business owners that have done that and found that to be helpful as well.

And it's a self paced course that's online.

People can take their own time and work their way through that.

So yeah, people can visit my website, which is www.encourageot.com and I've got lots of different spots on there, I guess for people to find out more about what I do or just reach out and connect with me as well.

I have lots of different things that I can support organizations and people with in this space.

So yeah, and I love talking about it.

As you know, we've managed to talk about it for such a long time.

I love it.

I love it.

We could keep going, but we need.

To wrap it up.

But I love, I love that.

And we're going to share your links for the listeners as well so they know where to go to get in contact with you.

And I think you've got this amazing ability to look at burnout and how we can prevent it and how we can keep nurturing people in our industry from the mindset of the employee, but also the mindset of the business owner.

And I think you've got this beautiful way of approaching it from all sides.

I think that's so important.

So keep doing what you're doing because I love it so much.

And thank you for being with me today.

Thanks for having me, Amy.

You're welcome.

Thank you for being here.

I am incredibly grateful.

If you have a friend that would find this helpful, please go ahead and share it with them too.

You can learn more about me and how to be part of my Allied Health Connection community over@theconnectionco.com sa.