Embracing Complexity: Faith, Music, and Self-Discovery with Andy Gullahorn

In this episode of the Curious Goldfish podcast, host Jason English engages in a deep conversation with musician Andy Gullahorn, exploring the intricate web of personal beliefs, life challenges, and the confluence of faith and music. Key discussions highlight the importance of understanding different perspectives, the influence of personal experiences on belief systems, and the subtle shades of life's complexities beyond black and white views. Andy reflects on his journey as an artist, focusing on personal growth, vulnerability, and his song 'Different Now.' The episode also examines lessons from a Christian upbringing, humor in songwriting, and upcoming music projects. Themes of self-discovery, overcoming adversity, and the transformation into one's true self are interwoven, illustrating that resilience and embracing failures lead to genuine self-realization. Ultimately, the conversation offers insight into Andy's perspective on community, creativity, and personal evolution, promoting kindness, patience, and compassion as essential virtues.

Curious Goldfish is a Music Podcast About More Than Music

00:00 Introduction: Embracing Complexity in Life

01:42 Exploring Trauma and Spirituality in Art

02:30 Meet Andy Gullahorn: Musician and Storyteller

03:31 Soccer Stories and Fatherhood

07:18 Current Projects and Creative Process

11:21 Themes of Compassion and Rehumanization

20:32 The Role of the Church and Personal Growth

27:54 Reflecting on the Song 'Different Now'

36:26 Navigating Resentment in Relationships

37:33 Therapeutic Power of Music

39:14 The Good Kid Syndrome

42:11 Balancing Humor and Depth in Songwriting

50:27 The Impact of Vulnerability in Songwriting

55:43 Reflections on Rich Mullins and Christian Music

01:07:02 Curiosity and Community

when I look at the reality of my life, Nothing's

2

ever that black and white.

3

that's something that in this political

climate that I have to do, I have to

4

be like, okay, this person who, who

believes strongly about something that

5

I believe strongly the other side about,

there are reasons why they believe

6

that, you know, and it's not just,

I can think like, oh, the reason why

7

I believe what I believe is because.

8

I'm really smart and logical and I know

what the right answer is to some degree,

9

the reason I believe what I believe

is because I grew up where I grew up.

10

I live in the neighborhood that I live in.

11

I've had the experiences in life that

I've had and Who knows what their life

12

experience was, you know, so I have to

leave room for that, and leave room for

13

seeing them as humans and, and leave

room for myself to grow and change too.

14

Jason English (Host): Nearly every

artist I've interviewed so far

15

in this podcast has some sort of

trauma that you're dealing with.

16

You'd assume that artists deal with

the usual suspects of addiction

17

or depression, But I'm constantly

surprised at how much trauma many

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artists have with their upbringing in

the Christian tradition of America.

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Trauma probably isn't the right way to

describe Andy Gullahorn's experiences,

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but he no doubt has thought a lot

about spiritual things and religion

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and how all that comes together as

you enter adulthood, start a family

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and build relationships around you.

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Although he grew up Catholic, his

experiences are similar to mine.

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And we talk a lot about

this in this conversation.

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I reached out to Andy when I

heard his song, Different Now.

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I'm so grateful that we had the chance

to talk about it and he was also

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nice enough to perform it at the end.

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Andy is not just an accomplished musician

and songwriter, but a thoughtful and

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introspective artist whose work often

explores the depths of human experience.

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With a career spanning over two

decades, Andy has touched many through

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his poignant lyrics and relatable

storytelling, delving into themes such

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as family, faith, and personal growth.

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In this episode, we'll dive into

Andy's experiences, his musical

34

journey, and the stories behind

some of his well loved songs.

35

We'll touch on his reflections

about being a good kid.

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In the church and the nuances of

navigating life's challenges and how

37

his songwriting has been a lens for

both personal and community healing.

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Plus we'll explore, plus we'll explore

the lighter side of his music, where

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humor and wit shine just as brightly.

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From Nashville, Tennessee,

here's Andy Gullahorn.

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Let's dive in.

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, nice to meet you.

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I'm Jason.

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Thanks for your time.

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Andy Gullahorn: for having me.

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Yeah,

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Jason English (Host): Uh, I've

got a few things I wanted to catch

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up about, uh, but I want to start

with something a little bit random.

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Hopefully, hopefully you

want to talk about this.

50

Uh, so both my boys played soccer

growing up and I know you have a son.

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I think his name is Tyler.

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I think you posted a few weeks ago and

what he scored a goal that was ridiculous.

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It's like a banger with

his left foot from way out.

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And it was nominated, I think,

for goal of the year for like

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Tennessee high school soccer.

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Is that right?

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First off, congrats.

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First off, congrats on that.

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It was a hell of a, it was a hell of a

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shot.

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Um, did he

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Andy Gullahorn: thanks.

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I had a lot to do with that or nothing.

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Jason English (Host): No, it's good.

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Uh, yeah.

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I, how did that, how did that end

up in terms of, do he, do you know

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if he

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won or not?

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Andy Gullahorn: He didn't win.

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He got second place in, in, uh, Tennessee

high school goals, which was pretty

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awesome, but he was up against, uh, like

a bicycle kick in from a corner kicks,

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which is kind of, it was hard to beat.

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I mean, it was a great, uh, you

know, they had like tournament style.

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So it was like every other day it

was him up against another goal

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and based on voting or whatever.

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And, um, So he, he took second, but

it was, uh, it was quite a goal.

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He was, he was pretty excited about it.

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I was pretty excited

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about it.

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Jason English (Host): Yeah.

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Is he, is he left footed?

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Andy Gullahorn: he is, he's,

he's right handed left footed.

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Uh, he's pretty good with both of his

feet, but left, he plays left back.

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Uh, so that goal he was kind of

following up in a, in a, in a cross

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went and the defender kicked it out

and he was like way outside the box

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and he just kind of went for it.

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And it was, it was, uh,

it was fun to watch.

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Jason English (Host):

Yeah, no, that's great.

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And the reason I bring it up is

obviously we're both, we're both

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fathers whose sons play soccer.

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My boys are, they're in college now,

but they, um, some of the, some of

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the best memories, obviously as a

father is watching all of my kids.

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I also have a daughter do their thing,

you know, whether that was for her

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violin or, you know, poms and for

the boys, you know, mainly soccer.

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So yeah, well done.

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That's awesome.

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Is he, um, does he have any

aspirations to play beyond high

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school?

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Andy Gullahorn: Maybe I mean, he's,

he's going into his, uh, senior year

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in high school and we were, uh, bad

parents in that we had three kids.

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He's our youngest.

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Uh, and he didn't play club soccer

like all of his friends did.

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I mean, COVID kind of hit

seventh grade year for him.

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So we were just traveling a lot and

three kids were like, yeah, we can't,

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we can't do a club soccer thing.

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So he kind of, uh, in high school has

been kind of coming into his own, uh,

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and catching up with kids who've been

playing, you know, club their whole life.

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Uh, But I think a benefit of that

is there are a lot of kids who play

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club soccer their whole life and

they get burned out by the end of

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high school and Tyler's not there.

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I think he, he's been talking to some

people about maybe playing, you know,

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in a D3 school or something like that

for college, but he's, he's not sure.

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He just, he loves playing.

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I'm excited to see what happens.

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Jason English (Host):

Yeah, no, that's cool.

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I think not that my boys could play it

like division one, but they, they could

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have played in college, uh, you know, at,

at a smaller school, but they got, they

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got burned out, uh, and they played club.

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They played club since they

were like U-11 you know, U-12.

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And, um, it was fun as a dad, uh,

to, to see so many games, you know,

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through the years and sure you can

relate like the, the memories and

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the time, you know, you'll, you'll

never, uh, you'll never forget.

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Um, but yeah, they, they were like,

okay, I'm done after high school.

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So,

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Andy Gullahorn: Totally.

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Yeah.

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I, I think, I mean, he is going to be

playing club this year, so I'm excited

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to go do a bunch of games and that

kind of stuff, but, um, I don't know.

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We'll see.

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Jason English (Host): So it's,

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Um, and there's, I'll get to the reason

why I reached out to you, uh, to do

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this interview kind of out of the

blue, uh, in, in a few minutes, but

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I guess for you, what are you working

on, you know, here in the summer?

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Um, in terms of, are you,

are you doing any new music?

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I think you, I think you're going to,

you're doing some shows later this summer.

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I guess.

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Could you just give us an

update on what does that look?

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What does that look like for you?

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Andy Gullahorn: Yeah, sure.

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I mean, um, I travel a good bit.

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You know, the funny thing is people

will be like, oh, it looks like

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you haven't been traveling much.

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And I'm like, oh, it's just

most of the stuff that I do.

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I don't put online.

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Cause it's not really open to.

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the public for some reason.

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I guess people who book me are

just ashamed of me and don't want

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other people to know about it.

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But, uh, no, I'm, I'm pretty busy,

uh, traveling, uh, all the time.

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Uh, but right now I'm also

trying to finish up a record

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I've been working on for years.

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I say working on, like, Doing

a little bit and then travel.

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It's hard for me to switch gears from

traveling to working in the studio.

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Uh, but I feel the crunch of needing to

have this thing done, uh, sometime soon.

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So, uh, you know, during the

days I'm, I'm working on that

156

and usually travel on weekends.

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Jason English (Host): Nice.

158

All right.

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Cause you haven't released like a full

album officially in a few years, right?

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It's been, It's been a minute.

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Andy Gullahorn: Yeah.

162

Since 2017, I mean, it's

been, it's been seven years.

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It's been a long time.

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Uh, and I've had these, you know, I

could have done it during COVID, I

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guess, but you know, kids are home and

that just wasn't in the cards for me.

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So,

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Jason English (Host): Yeah.

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Andy Gullahorn: the funny thing is my

file on my computer when I'm working

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on the record, it said, you know,

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And then I had to change

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Now I've had to change the 2024 record.

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I just don't want to change it to 2025.

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I want to get done this year,

but don't hold me to it.

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Jason English (Host): All right.

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No, I won't.

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Don't, don't worry about that.

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So I also noticed you have a Patreon

account and, uh, I think you're,

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you're pretty prolific in terms of.

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Contributing and posting to that.

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I think I saw somewhere where you've

got more than 70 unreleased songs

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that you've recorded and posted there.

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I guess this, the album that

you're working on, will you draw

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from any of those, or is this

completely kind of under wraps?

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Until the album.

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Andy Gullahorn: Yeah, no, some of the.

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Actually, probably all the songs

on the record would be on there.

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And the way that I,

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I look at Patreon, I can't

remember what, I think I started

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doing it a couple years ago.

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Uh, it was, there's so many songs,

both the ones that are on this record

191

that I haven't like officially released

yet, but then a lot of other songs I

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write for other people or ones that

just aren't going to make the record.

193

Uh, and I was like, I want some

place for those songs to live.

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But I also didn't have, uh, it

wouldn't be easy for me to like do

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like a regular production of each song

every month or something like that.

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So my, my deal with Patreon was like,

Oh, if people are interested in the

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writing process and the, and the new

songs, then pretty much when I write a

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new song, sometimes like the hour after

I write it, or if I'm still working on

199

it, maybe a day or two after I write it,

I just take a video of me performing it.

200

Uh, and then I post that on there.

201

So the.

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You know, I think it's close to a hundred

songs there now that are kind of like

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that have been unrecorded that are, you

know, if people hear something, they're

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like, Oh, I want to hear that song.

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I was like, well, you have to wait until

it's released or you can just go to

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Patreon and all the songs are on there.

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Um, and it's, it's really

out of that community.

208

I also post like a kind of behind

the song, just kind of talking

209

about the process and the structure

and the more technical side of

210

songwriting for, if there are any nerds

interested in that kind of a thing.

211

Um, But it's a, it's a

fun little community over

212

there.

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Jason English (Host): No, that's great.

214

Will the new album have a kind of a

coherent theme, uh, that, that you've been

215

thinking about, or will it be just to be a

collection of, you know, different things.

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Andy Gullahorn: Uh, I hope

it has a coherent theme, but

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it wouldn't be intentional.

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It's like, uh, the theme is just

like whatever's been happening in my

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life over the last number of years.

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And, and you know, when I look at

the songs, there are a number of

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themes that always seem to come up

in some way in any record that I do.

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Um, it's kind of, I hope, I hope it's

like all compassionate and, and, um,

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You know, there were a lot of songs and

not all of them that are made the record.

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But, uh, one theme that

I think about is, uh,

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I would say like rehumanization.

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Um, so like thinking about ways that I

would dehumanize other people and, um,

227

trying to both for myself and for other

people, uh, learn to see myself and

228

other people as humans, which means, you

know, messed up, uh, uh, and, uh, Uh,

229

All I don't know if, I don't know if other

people would get that theme from listening

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to the record, but that's my hope, I

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guess.

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Jason English (Host): What's the, can

you give me a quick example of that?

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That's top of mind right now?

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Andy Gullahorn: I mean, an easy example

of it is, um, there's a song called, uh,

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Your Anger's Gonna Take You Places.

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And it's a song that I wrote about, I

can't remember what the guy's name is

237

now, but the guy in Charlottesville when

they were doing the marches, the guy

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who got into his Dodge Challenger and

ran into the crowd and killed somebody.

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Um, those kind of situations where

You know, it's like, oh, what, I

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hate that that happens in our world,

like that, that kind of conflict.

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And, um, it's easy to be like, oh,

this guy is like a bigoted so and so

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comes from whatever, and he's marching

against this, and then he just goes

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and kills somebody with his car.

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And.

245

Not taking away from what he's done, but

I'm like, I have a hard time imagining

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him waking up in Ohio where he was

from and being like, I'm going to go to

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this March and never come home again.

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You know, like there's a million

little things that happened in

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his life before that happens.

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And, uh, I just kind of think when we

say, Oh, what a monster, or look at

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something like Dylan Roof or something

like that, you're like, what a monster.

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It's like, when we say what a monster,

I feel like that's contributing

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to the problem that made him.

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The quote monster that he is.

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It's kind of like, the reason why Dylan

Roof can walk into a church and shoot

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people that he was just, uh, in a Bible

study with, or the reason why this other

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guy can get in a car and drive into a

crowd full of people, is that he looks

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at those other people as like, not human.

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Like, I don't, I don't think you

can think about them as humans like

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yourself and do that kind of a thing.

261

There's some dehumanization that happens

that allows you to do something like that.

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In turn, I feel like, you know, my anger

and kind of disgust at the situation.

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I could be like, well,

those guys are monsters.

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They're horrible.

265

They're like, whatever.

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So not like me.

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And if I, if I try to distance myself

from them by saying there's, there's

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nothing like me, then I feel like

nothing's ever going to change.

269

So like the song anger is going to take

you places was really just kind of a

270

fictional song thinking about this guy.

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Um, and what his life must've been

like, he's probably bullied as a kid.

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And I mean, I don't, I don't know what

273

his story is, but it's just kind

of looking into this and, and ways

274

in which Uh, he probably got the

messages that that his anger is,

275

is the best thing to fight for him.

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Jason English (Host): Right.

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Andy Gullahorn: and, uh, yeah, so

not every song, song on the record

278

is a story about somebody who's

done something, uh, horrendous.

279

Um, But I hope that every song

is kind of trying to look through

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those same eyes, if that makes

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sense.

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Jason English (Host): no,

that's, that's interesting.

283

Uh, it reminds me a little bit.

284

I don't know.

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Do you ever listen to Sufjan Stevens?

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Andy Gullahorn: have listened to him.

287

I haven't listened to any new

stuff, uh, but yeah, I do like

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Sufjan.

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Jason English (Host): Yeah.

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So this goes, this goes back

to the, I think the Illinois

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album,

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2005.

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Andy Gullahorn: Geysi, uh, the

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Geysi song.

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Jason English (Host): Yeah,

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So the last, the last lyric is basically

like, you know, it's John Wayne Gacy.

297

The song is called John Wayne Gacy.

298

It's about the serial killer,

you know, and it's very haunting.

299

But the last lyric is basically like,

you know, um, if you look under the

300

floorboards, uh, where he's, you know,

he's hidden, he's hidden the dead bodies.

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It's basically saying there's secrets.

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Under the floorboards and I might find

myself, uh, or I might realize I'm, I'm

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sort of just like him kind of thing.

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Right.

305

So it's, uh, that when you were talking,

that reminds me of like that, you

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know, yeah, he was John, you could

say John Wayne Gacy is a monster.

307

Cause he killed all those boys.

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And that was horrible, but there

was things that contributed to it.

309

And at the end of the day, We're

not too dissimilar from, you know,

310

from those, from those folks.

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Right.

312

Andy Gullahorn: right.

313

I think people get uncomfortable because

it's, you know, this world, a lot of

314

people can see the world black and white.

315

So it's either like you're

for him or you're against him.

316

So it's hard to, it's hard sometimes

even for myself to be like, Oh, well, if

317

I'm for compassion for John Wayne Gacy.

318

That means I'm not for, uh, holding

him accountable to what he's done

319

or I'm blaming somebody else.

320

And, and when I look at the

reality of my life, um, Nothing's

321

ever that black and white.

322

So, uh, yeah, I hope, you know, you said,

uh, before we started, you promised you

323

wouldn't ask me about politics, which I'm

not gonna talk about politics, but like,

324

that's something that in this political

climate that I have to do, I have to be

325

like, okay, this person who, who believes

strongly about something that I believe

326

strongly the other side about, um,

327

there are reasons why they believe

that, you know, and it's not just,

328

I can think like, oh, the reason why

I believe what I believe is because.

329

I'm really smart and logical and

I know what the right answer is.

330

To some degree, the reason I

believe what I believe is because

331

I grew up where I grew up.

332

I live in the neighborhood that I live in.

333

I've had the experiences in life that

I've had and Who knows what their life

334

experience was, you know, so I have to

leave room for that, um, and leave room

335

for seeing them as humans and, and leave

room for myself to grow and change too.

336

Jason English (Host): would like

to ask related to this is one, it

337

seems like in 2020, Uh, we're going

to go back to politics for a second.

338

Artists in general were very

vocal about supporting a candidate

339

or not supporting a candidate.

340

Right.

341

It, it seems like in 2024, I don't see it.

342

I don't hear it as much as it felt

like it was in four years ago.

343

do you agree with that?

344

And like, why do you think

that is this, this time around

345

are people just like fatigued.

346

Andy Gullahorn: I think there's a level of

fatigue, but I also feel like there's, um,

347

personally, it's a, personally, it's

a mixture of fatigue and just feeling

348

like, it, it, these aren't like new

candidates that are coming up, right?

349

So like, it's kind of like,

350

if people were set in stone before,

they're even more set in stone now.

351

It's kind of like, well, it's, it's,

There's not a whole lot of debate.

352

Uh, I don't, uh, I don't, I don't think

there's any place where it's like,

353

Oh, Oh, let me listen to what this

person says about this, uh, policy.

354

Oh yeah.

355

Then I might vote for that person.

356

It's just kind of like, uh, people

in general are kind of immovable.

357

And I think that leads

to the, the fatigue part.

358

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

359

Andy Gullahorn: I know like for

me personally, it wouldn't be,

360

there's nothing somebody that

could say that would make me,

361

Change my mind, like vote for somebody,

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Jason English (Host): Right.

363

Andy Gullahorn: on the

opposite side of it.

364

Like, I don't know what that

could possibly be to make me.

365

And I think a lot of people

366

feel that way.

367

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

368

Yeah.

369

Andy Gullahorn: I hope that,

that I would be open to change.

370

Um, but yeah, I

371

don't know,

372

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

373

Yeah.

374

No, it just,

375

it just

376

Andy Gullahorn: but I think

that all that leads to

377

fatigue.

378

Jason English (Host): Yeah,

yeah, It just feels different.

379

And then I guess back to the point you

were making about, you know, I think,

380

I don't know if you were to use the

word nuance, but the whole idea of

381

black and white and he's a monster.

382

He's not, you know,

and like, they're good.

383

I'm bad kind of thing.

384

Um, so I grew up in the church, I guess.

385

I know, uh, you're, you're a Christian

and you're part of, uh, Christian music.

386

You're, you're, your wife's part of

Christian music and like, you know,

387

that whole sort of, I'll call it a

subculture, not in a, in a bad way, but

388

you know, that whole sort of environment.

389

How much, how much do you

think the church has sort of

390

contributed to the lack of nuance?

391

Cause I think like for me growing up,

things were very black and white, you

392

know, and it was, uh, you know, very,

very good and bad kind of in, you know,

393

as I've gotten older, as I've traveled

the world for, for work or pleasure or

394

whatever, and meet other people from other

cultures and things, it's, there's a lot

395

of gray that I'm, I'm coming to learn,

396

Do you think the church has

contributed to like that, the

397

black and white view on things?

398

Yeah.

399

Yeah.

400

Andy Gullahorn: it, uh, totally can

and has and does, um, know, in the

401

kind of Christian music subculture,

which I don't really, I've kind of

402

been, um, in some ways associated

with, but never quite fit into it.

403

So I've kind of been associated.

404

It's like a, it's more like the

Christian music world is Kevin Bacon.

405

And I'm like a few people

removed at all times.

406

Um, but, um, just cause that, that I

didn't grow up in a, like an evangelical

407

church where that use kind of the language

that the Christian music subculture.

408

is like their, their native tongue.

409

So I always felt like my, I didn't

have the right language for it.

410

Um, and I, I grew up in

a Catholic church and.

411

There are all kinds of things around that.

412

But one thing I am grateful for about

that, uh, I feel like growing up in

413

the Catholic church for better and

worse, it was like there was more of an

414

acceptance of mystery in, in gray area.

415

Even if you just look at the way that the

buildings are made, you know, I grew up

416

in a church where there were dark corners.

417

Uh, you know, where you kneel down and

light a candle and, and like all the, the

418

building itself, wasn't saying everything

is knowable, you know, like in a, in a

419

room where everything is lit up and you

can see everything when there are dark

420

corners as a kid, it's like, oh, there's,

There's like mystery there and, um, so

421

I'm really grateful for growing up with a

sense that one, I can't know everything.

422

I don't need to know everything.

423

And not everything is knowable.

424

Like it's the mystery in the gray is okay.

425

Um, now the Christian subculture,

like Christian music is, I would

426

not say is very Catholic, um,

at least here in Nashville.

427

Um, but, um, And,

428

know, I, I think they're,

429

an interesting way to put it, I

was at a retreat this last weekend,

430

uh, with a pastor named Corey

Widmer out of Richmond, Virginia.

431

And, um, he was talking, at least I

think this was Corey, it could have

432

been Mark Charbonneau, I just want

to make sure I say that I was at

433

two different retreats the last two

weeks, so it's one of these retreats.

434

Jason English (Host): Right.

435

Andy Gullahorn: And, um, kind of

talking about if, like, a faith life

436

is like a song, there are a lot of

different, um, elements to that song.

437

And it seems like the church has

focused heavily on the lyrics,

438

making sure you know the right thing

and you're saying the right thing.

439

Um, but not thinking about the timing and

the melody and the harmony and, and, like,

440

all the things that are kind of like.

441

aren't about knowledge, right?

442

It's, it's like more implicit

than knowing the right thing.

443

Um, another way to put it is like,

there's a lot of churches where

444

it's like, it would just be heavily

focused on your thoughts and, and,

445

and knowing it's just on your head.

446

And it's not, what I love about a

liturgical church is like, you have

447

to kneel, you have to stand up.

448

I used to hate that as a kid.

449

It's like, why are we kneeling again?

450

I hate this, you know,

and I want to fall asleep.

451

But like, As I grew up, I was

like, oh, this is a way for me to

452

participate in some sort of worship,

453

just with my body.

454

Like, I don't even, I could be pissed off.

455

I could be pissed off at God.

456

I could be like, I don't want

to worship, but you know what?

457

My body's going to do it

when I don't feel like it.

458

And that's enough.

459

Uh, so it's not about

thinking the right things.

460

And so I think when we focus on

just thinking and knowing the right

461

things and not about more holistic

experience about just kind of, uh, you

462

know, our bodies and how we interact

with our community, um, then I think

463

it'd get really black and white.

464

So I think that black and white thinking

is really tied to this elevation of the

465

mind and knowing everything, which, you

know, that's not particular to the church.

466

I think that's everywhere, but the church

just, just reflecting, uh, ways that

467

it's like everywhere else in the world.

468

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

469

Well, it's cool.

470

The, your symbolism of the dark

corners on the church, there's

471

gotta be a song somewhere in

there with you talking about that

472

growing

473

Andy Gullahorn: Yeah.

474

I

475

Jason English (Host): there's a song

476

hidden

477

Andy Gullahorn: yeah, I think

there are, um, at least it's snuck

478

into a number of songs for me.

479

Cause I think about

480

that a lot.

481

Jason English (Host): Do you?

482

Yeah.

483

Yeah.

484

No, that's interesting.

485

And I, I would not that you need me

to agree with you, but I think there's

486

a, there's sort of Christian music.

487

Um, and I was, I grew up on Christian

music, you know, I grew up in, uh,

488

in, in the Midwest and, um, you know,

a lot of, a lot of history there.

489

Uh, but as I got older, what I started,

who I started to appreciate more were

490

sort of the guys that were, they would,

they dip their toe just enough to know

491

that like, A faith or a belief in God

was influencing them, but they weren't

492

completely immersed in the subculture.

493

So guys like Bill Mallonee, you

know, vigilantes of love, um,

494

Pierce Pettis, David Wilcox.

495

And then I think, you know, for me,

you know, which I want to ask you

496

about, because I think you contributed

to an album related to him, you know,

497

Rich Mullins to me was, He was in the

subculture cause he, he sort of had

498

to be, that's kind of how he grew up.

499

But I never thought he

was of it, you know?

500

And so it was like, there was a

small ring of people that I've

501

always respected and appreciated.

502

Andrew Peterson, I think

would fit in that, which I,

503

who I know you do a lot with.

504

And then just getting to

know you and your music.

505

It's like, okay, it feels like he's,

he's, he's dipping his toe in just enough.

506

Uh, but he's, you know, he's,

he's not completely washed in it.

507

And I, I respect that.

508

Andy Gullahorn: yeah, I, I feel the

same way about all those artists

509

for sure.

510

Jason English (Host): No, well, so that,

that leads me to a couple of the songs

511

I wanted to ask you about, and this is

really why I wanted to, to talk with you.

512

Uh, and it's related to some of

these, uh, some of these topics.

513

So I've got the lyrics, uh, of

the song called different now.

514

And, uh, this was, I think one

of the songs on the album that

515

you released seven years ago.

516

Is that right?

517

Yeah.

518

Andy Gullahorn: I think so.

519

Jason English (Host): So this, this came,

this hit my playlist, you know, like a,

520

like a random radio playlist, you know,

where they tee up songs that are related

521

to, uh, to, to ones you're listening to.

522

And, you know, I was.

523

I was like, okay, this sounds good.

524

You know, this is interesting.

525

And then I, I, I hear, I heard some of

the words and I, I, you know, obviously I

526

played it, played it time and time again.

527

And, uh, so I want to ask you, you

know, uh, I think I, I know what you

528

were saying, you know, in this, but I

guess my, my experience and listening

529

to it, just reflected on my life, it's.

530

When you grow up in the church,

right, there's a, uh, a certain

531

amount of pressure that I know I

felt to be perfect, you know, and

532

to, uh, to always be positive, to

always act like everything's wrong.

533

I'm horrible.

534

I'm better now, but I was horrible

for a long time at conflict, you know?

535

Um, and then all, and then this,

this whole notion of like, we're

536

all human and whether you call

it sin or not, like there's.

537

There's things that you, you have

impulses and desires or whatever,

538

uh, whatever those could be.

539

And that uh, we all have them,

but like when you're, when you're

540

in the church as a young person,

you, you can't talk about it.

541

You can't, obviously you can't do

anything and everything's sort of hidden

542

and it's very, it's very surface level.

543

And your whole point, I think is

like, you know, you're, you're kind of

544

setting the stage, but you're doing it.

545

You're different now.

546

And, uh, I just want to talk to you about

that sort of, uh, that transformation or

547

the evolution for you as a person and,

um, how that's reflected in the music.

548

So anyway, I don't know how off I

am or how on I am on, on that, but

549

that, that's what I got from it.

550

Andy Gullahorn: That's great.

551

Yeah, the, uh, I'm trying to

remember the lyrics to that

552

song now.

553

Jason English (Host): Well, I've got it.

554

I've got it here.

555

Uh, all right.

556

So, It starts, you know, the

good kid growing up, that was me.

557

I was voted most likely to be a priest,

by the way, I went to Bible school for

558

a hot minute, you know, like, all right.

559

So I was voted most likely to be a priest

and I thought I could not let anyone down.

560

Right.

561

Like I didn't want to let anybody down.

562

I, I just felt like I had

to be, you know, perfect.

563

My desk, my definition of the

way to be kind was to lose

564

myself and to shun desire.

565

I thought I had life figured out.

566

But I am different now and all

the little ways that I tried to

567

rebel well I kept them quiet.

568

I hid them well because it wasn't

real if it was never found.

569

And I looked at the world through

the eyes of a mask and compared

570

myself with some fuzzy math to

stake my claim on higher ground.

571

I'm different now.

572

I'm different now.

573

And then, and I felt the holy water

as a kid, but still the love of

574

God felt like a stranger had to

live and die to become born again.

575

Baptized in the fire of my failure.

576

I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

577

yes.

578

Andy Gullahorn: Oh, I'm so glad.

579

Um, well, yeah, starting off like,

you know, I have, um, a number of

580

songs that are kind of like this.

581

They're kind of like autobiographical ways

to kind of introduce myself on a record.

582

Um, and so that was true in

my high school superlatives.

583

One of them was that I was

most likely to be a priest.

584

Um, you know, I was a good kid,

like, and I, I think I, um,

585

The, like what you're saying, when

you find value and identity in being

586

the good kid, it's not anybody else's

fault, although it can be reinforced

587

by different people in your life.

588

Um, you feel like when you get the

positive reinforcement from that, you,

589

you do almost anything you can to keep it.

590

You know, and, um, so for me,

it's kind of like, like you, I

591

never did well with conflict.

592

I don't like conflict.

593

Um, and, uh, part of that, the being

different now, I think is, uh, the

594

process of being, uh, maybe the difference

between being a peacemaker and a

595

peacekeeper, like, like who's, who's

just, who doesn't want to make any waves.

596

Like, I think I will always want peace.

597

I will always want.

598

but peace isn't always absence of

conflict, you know, like sometimes

599

even if that's just within my own self.

600

So, um, to have a desire as simple

as like, I want Chinese food

601

tonight, you know, but somebody

says, what do you want to eat?

602

Oh, I don't know.

603

I'll do whatever.

604

Like, like in order to have peace,

it's just like, forget what I have

605

to do or what I thought I had to do.

606

It's just like, Well, I think I want

this, but like, they might not want this.

607

So I'm just going to be quiet.

608

I'm going to put a big wet

blanket over whatever that is.

609

And it's, you know, to say Chinese

food is like, that's a really

610

trivial example, but you do that a

million times throughout your life.

611

And then you start to do it

with everything else, you know?

612

Um, and.

613

So like for me as a grownup, people would

say, Oh, it's really important to, um,

614

to pay attention to and, uh, honor

the things that you love to do, like

615

what you want to know what you need.

616

You know, and, um, there were so many

steps for me of figuring out what it was

617

that I wanted or I needed, because first

I had to kind of convince myself that

618

it was okay to want or need something.

619

And then once I kind of get there,

it's kind of like waiting, be like a

620

whack a mole if a one or a need ever

came up in my life, I hit it down.

621

So then by the time I'm in my

thirties, it's like, if I have

622

a want or need, they're like,

I'm not going to show my face.

623

I'm about to get hit, you know?

624

So I kind of have to

create a safe spacing.

625

It's okay to have those and then

let them slowly come up and, and,

626

and start to pay attention to them.

627

Um, another thing, another way that

came out is like, uh, I thought there's

628

so many ways that I thought, um,

629

I always, I think I am a kind person.

630

I like to think I'm a kind person.

631

I care about people.

632

Uh, but there are lots of ways

in my life where I realized.

633

That what I thought was

kind wasn't kind at all.

634

Uh, it was more just

kicking a can down the road.

635

And, um, know, me not being in touch with

how I feel or what I want, um, really

636

isn't being kind to the people around me.

637

Cause then all that does,

I'm just burying stuff.

638

And then it comes out sideways.

639

Like when resentment and, and

anger and all this kind of stuff.

640

Um, Not, not that there's anything wrong

with anger, but like the resentment anger.

641

It would always come out of like, I

didn't know how to feel anger at like

642

a 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 out of 10.

643

I would just shove it down

until it was like a 9 or a 10,

644

and then it would scare me.

645

I'd be like, oh, I don't

want to feel that again.

646

So I just avoid that kind of stuff.

647

Well, that's not kind either.

648

So it's just been a process of,

uh, seeing all the ways that I

649

thought, oh, this is me being a

good kid, or this is me being kind.

650

And then a great question that comes

out of like, you know, 12 step community

651

or recovery communities, it's like,

well, how's that working for you?

652

Like, Is, do you see collateral damage

in relationships around you because of

653

the, Oh yeah, why is that happening?

654

Well, maybe it isn't the kindest

thing to yourself or to other people.

655

So it's been a, my life has been a

process of like learning how to look

656

at the data of my life and being

like, Oh yeah, I thought if I did

657

this, this is what would happen.

658

That's not really what's happening.

659

So maybe I should, maybe I need to look at

660

what I think being kind is, you

know, I don't know if that makes any

661

Jason English (Host):

Yeah, yeah, no, it's good.

662

Well, it goes back to, I think, to

the whole idea of nuance and, uh,

663

like, you know, being okay with living

in the gray a little bit, but also

664

you make a great point, especially

like in a relationship where you'd

665

rather forsake, uh, your own needs,

wants, whatever, just to keep peace.

666

You know, but that, that, like, that may

be okay in the moment, but over time,

667

you know, resentment builds, you know?

668

And, uh, so I think like that

plays out really, really heavily.

669

I know in, you know, whatever, romantic

relationships, friendships, whatever.

670

So, um, yeah, I just think like, for me, I

felt a lot of pressure being the good boy,

671

the good kid going to church three times

a week, you know, listening to Christian

672

music all the time, not drinking, you

know, all those, all those things and,

673

uh, You know, I think it actually impacted

me, uh, and how I faced adulthood and

674

I could handle and navigate adult life.

675

Uh, and I, it's, it's kind of a shame

because I know that like the intention

676

wasn't there to do that, but that's sort

of the unintended consequences, you know?

677

Andy Gullahorn: I would say that's,

that's a really common story.

678

You know, some, some of my, my music

has always had kind of a therapeutic

679

element to it because I've always, one,

I always like listening, the first time

680

I listened to David Wilcox, I felt like

there was like a healing element to

681

his music and I was like, I love that.

682

That's what I want to aspire to.

683

Pierce Pettis, same thing.

684

And, uh, so because of that, um,

some of the songs have made their

685

way into therapeutic spaces.

686

know, like different therapists have

asked me to come do music in the, in

687

that context, you know, and so what I

can say is I probably, you know, well,

688

multiple times a year now I'll go play

music and help lead, uh, small groups at,

689

at these, uh, kind of intensive therapy

690

retreats.

691

that are just for people who want to,

want to like do work on their heart

692

or people who are struggling with

addictions of any kind, drugs, alcohol,

693

sex, pornography, whatever it is.

694

And you get into the small groups

and it really doesn't matter what

695

the, the presenting symptom is, it's

getting them into the, you know,

696

this intensive therapy weekend.

697

You start doing like, family

of origin work or childhood

698

or trauma work or whatever.

699

And I will say that particularly with

sex or porn addiction, it's like, I

700

would, this is an uneducated opinion.

701

It's just out of my own experience

working with guys, like a great majority

702

of people who are really

struggling with that.

703

Um, Would describe themselves in their

role of their family as being the

704

good the good kid or the golden child

705

you could say oh, well somebody like

that thinks that You know, they have this

706

moralistic view about what they're doing.

707

And so they, they have an issue

with it and maybe they shouldn't.

708

Well, I don't, I don't care about that.

709

I'm just like their lives are becoming

unmanageable for whatever reason.

710

And, uh, I just see a lot of

people who grew up in the church.

711

And who are the good kids, or maybe didn't

even grow up in the church, but their

712

role in their family was the good kid.

713

And so it's kind of like,

well, what does that mean?

714

What does that data show me?

715

And it shows me that like, uh, there

are people in this world who aren't

716

covered in shame all the time, you know?

717

But, but when, when you're

the good kid, you get a, uh,

718

you have this allergy to it.

719

You know, it's kind of like, Oh, I just,

you're just trying so hard to avoid it.

720

And sometimes that's

why you're the good kid.

721

And, um, you know, so I'm, I'm not saying

it's a church's fault, although the

722

church can certainly contribute to it.

723

Um, But I just kind of think

that's the way that I came out.

724

Like I, where I was with my, in my,

the order of my siblings and whatever,

725

I just felt like I was supposed

to be the good kid, uh, to fit in.

726

And with that comes a lot of shame

and with shame comes a lot of hiding.

727

And with the hiding comes a lot of,

uh, trouble and unmanageability.

728

And, and, uh, So like what you're

sharing with me is like, yeah,

729

that sounds like really normal.

730

Like,

731

Jason English (Host): Yeah, yeah,

732

Andy Gullahorn: that being a good

kid, there are great things to it,

733

but it's also like, there's a lot of

recovery from that that needs to happen.

734

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

735

And a lot of maturity and growth that

needs to happen probably too, not too

736

late, but way late in life compared

to, you know, compared to other,

737

Andy Gullahorn: Yeah.

738

Cause,

739

Jason English (Host): other rituals.

740

Andy Gullahorn: Cause, that

strategy will work for a long time.

741

And then, you know, usually later in

life it stops, it stops working as well.

742

And you're like, Oh

gosh, what do I have now?

743

Like, that was my strategy

to live throughout the world.

744

And now I'm in my thirties

or forties or whatever.

745

And it's like, Oh, this is, that

strategy isn't working for me.

746

Jason English (Host): Yeah, that's that's

that's that's a great way to summarize it.

747

Um, so thank you.

748

So, um, so that was that,

uh, so thanks for that song.

749

Um, and sort of, I don't

know what it did to me.

750

It's sort of reinforced something for me.

751

It confirmed something for me and help

me understand that, you know, it's

752

okay kind of thing, but I feel like I'm

different now and I'm grateful for that.

753

Andy Gullahorn: No,

thanks for sharing that.

754

Um, that, that, uh, it is a

dream that songs would connect

755

with people in that way.

756

So

757

thank you.

758

Jason English (Host): Yeah, no worries.

759

what's interesting about you just again,

and kind of getting to know your music,

760

which I I'm fairly new at, like I said,

just a few months ago, you you're really

761

interesting because you go from like

a, so that like these therapy type deep

762

songs about maybe faith, family, whatever.

763

And then the pendulum swings to

like, I think some tongue in cheek.

764

Uh, type songs, right?

765

So like the, the teenager song

from your, from your last album.

766

Um, and then you've got the, the self

awareness song, uh, about the Enneagrams.

767

Um, so I think that's really interesting.

768

I guess, is that, is that how

your brain works is like, okay,

769

I'm going to be kind of the.

770

Deadpan, funny, a little bit of

a jokester in certain situations.

771

And then, you know, you, you swing

it back to the serious and does that

772

just come out in your songwriting?

773

Um, cause I think it's really

interesting sort of the, the,

774

the, the polarity of that,

775

Andy Gullahorn: Well, I appreciate

you saying that my brain works.

776

And I, I think, uh, that

is kind of, uh, maybe.

777

It would be

778

like those songs in juxtaposition

with each other would be similar

779

to like any conversation I would

have with friends or my community.

780

It's kind of like where you, you would

want to dive into some deep waters,

781

but also kind of like have fun.

782

And I've always, uh, appreciated.

783

Deep appreciation for like comics,

like standup comics, uh, or improv, uh,

784

artists like to me, that's terrifying.

785

Uh, but I just think it's like

a incredibly difficult art form.

786

Um, and the funny, if we're going to

call them funny, you know, funny songs,

787

those are in some ways the hardest

to write because it's, it's like,

788

There's a tightrope of trying to write

something that might get people to

789

laugh in a live context because if you

miss, you really miss and then playing

790

the song is like completely miserable.

791

Jason English (Host):

just up there exposed,

792

Andy Gullahorn: So, so my strategy for

that is to write songs kind of deadpan

793

so that if nobody laughs, I can pretend

like they weren't supposed to laugh.

794

Like it's like, there are a

lot of like escape hatches.

795

Uh, so I try to write something

that, um, you know, maybe people

796

will laugh at, but if they don't,

I can act like, Oh, I don't care.

797

You weren't supposed to laugh, whatever.

798

Jason English (Host): you just play it

799

Andy Gullahorn: but also

800

I, I have, uh, I never wanted

to be like my own artists and

801

travel and play my own songs.

802

I just want to write

songs for other people.

803

And then over the years, uh, you

know, found myself in places where

804

I was playing my own songs because

nobody else was going to do it.

805

And then found that I really,

I really love playing songs.

806

I love playing shows.

807

Uh, I love sharing songs with people.

808

And so the, those funny songs to me

are, are, I look at them like a tool.

809

Like I, I want to go same thing, like

a conversation with, with friends.

810

Like, I want to be able to go really

deep in the conversation and what

811

would happen in the evening of music.

812

And to me, having a song that

can get people to laugh really

813

accelerates that process.

814

It really kind of like, I feel like

if I can make people laugh, they

815

open up a little bit and then, then

we can go deeper and then we can

816

go really deep and go really sad.

817

We can go really dark.

818

Um, and then we can laugh again.

819

And then it's like, uh, I think

if I just came in and went dark

820

and sad, then some people are

gonna be like, that's not for me.

821

Um,

822

Jason English (Host): that's, a classic

tool of like a public speaking, right?

823

You, you want to open with a

creative, creative opener, get

824

some kind of loosens people up,

gets the familiarity kind of going.

825

And then you, then you, then

you crush them with truth or a

826

sales presentation or whatever.

827

So, uh, yeah, that, that's cool.

828

Yeah.

829

Um, Hey, what.

830

Andy Gullahorn: that like a song like,

like, like teenagers or something

831

like that, like that record, people

will come up after a show, like, Oh,

832

do you have teenagers on a record?

833

Like, yeah, it's on that record.

834

So like those songs are probably

ones that will sell more than other

835

songs will, but my hope is that they.

836

Get people to listen to the record

and then they would be impacted

837

by the other songs on the record.

838

Which is why, you know, people are like,

oh, you should do a record of just like

839

your funny songs and telling stories.

840

I was like, well, yeah, but I don't,

the funny songs are to serve a purpose.

841

They're not just to be, uh, they're on

their own, but that's also something

842

that David Wilcox did so well too.

843

He would always have some kind of

funny song mixed in with other things.

844

And so, uh, you know, I probably just am

copying my heroes like David Wilcox or

845

like John Gorka or somebody like that.

846

Jason English (Host): if I could read

some of the Enneagram stuff, cause

847

like credit to you for, you know, if

you're going to perform a quote unquote

848

funny song and, uh, and try to pull

it off, why not do it at the Ryman?

849

Right.

850

So, um, I know this is on YouTube

and you perform this, uh, at the

851

Ryman auditorium in Nashville, um,

the mother church of country music.

852

And again, for everybody listening

or watching, you got to look this

853

up, but here's, this is great.

854

And again, just the songwriter in you

is, uh, yeah, it's, it's fascinating.

855

So it starts out.

856

I think I figured out why I feel so alone.

857

I've grown too much in self awareness.

858

I'm sure that I'm right, but

the friends that I know aren't

859

involved enough to understand it.

860

I rid of my blind spots a long time ago

after reading some books that put me

861

in the know, so I don't need therapy.

862

There's nothing to fix.

863

I know what my Enneagram number is.

864

That's awesome, man.

865

Yeah, that's

866

great.

867

Uh, cause it's, it's, uh,

it's the Enneagram stuff.

868

It's the Myers Briggs.

869

It's, uh, it's all these things, right.

870

That people, uh, are, uh,

somewhat obsessed with.

871

Um, if I could, if I, if I do say

so, but, um, yeah, that's good stuff.

872

And I have to ask you what,

what is your Enneagram number?

873

All

874

Andy Gullahorn: Uh, my Instagram

number, I'm a nine on the Enneagram,

875

Jason English (Host): right.

876

Yeah, that makes sense, but it goes back

to what we were talking about earlier.

877

All

878

Andy Gullahorn: mean, the funny thing

is I, I, um, I love the Enneagram and

879

it's been like really helpful for me.

880

And my wife is like, did

a long training in it.

881

We've done all kinds of stuff and

taught stuff, but it does, you know,

882

as it, as it got more, I kind of knew

I was a nine back in high school.

883

My parents in the Catholic church,

the enneagram was always pretty big.

884

And, you know, back then anybody other

than the Catholic church was like,

885

Oh, that's, that's not Christian.

886

That's satanic.

887

Then all of a sudden it becomes popular.

888

And then all the other churches

like, Oh, we're totally into it now.

889

I'm like, okay, whatever.

890

But, um, the, uh, it's really

helpful, but I, I would.

891

You know, I would hear from

people like, Oh, I'm a, you

892

know, three with a eight wing.

893

And I'm like, well,

that's not really a thing.

894

And, uh, there was a reason why,

like early in the Catholic church,

895

they would only teach the, like

in spiritual direction, they

896

would only teach you your number.

897

They wouldn't teach the whole thing.

898

Cause they were like, then it will become

like a parlor game or something like that.

899

People are, people will like take a

little sip of it and think they know

900

everything, which is totally the case.

901

And I probably do the same thing.

902

But, um, so writing that

song was kind of like.

903

I liked taking something I loved.

904

I think it's a great tool, but

that's all it is is a tool.

905

Um, and then kind of making fun of it.

906

And the Ryman, I think I play that

particularly because the, a friend who

907

wrote the book, uh, uh, the road back

to you, which I, which is, I kind of

908

referenced at the end of that song.

909

I knew he would be sitting out in

the audience so that Ryman thing.

910

So I was just trying to

give him a hard time.

911

That was kind of

912

fun.

913

Jason English (Host): right.

914

Well, well done.

915

Um, and then the last one I just want

to talk about briefly, I think you, uh,

916

did you co write it with Jason gray?

917

It's called the death of a funeral.

918

Death without a funeral.

919

you, you, you all co wrote that?

920

Yeah.

921

Um,

922

Andy Gullahorn: Yes.

923

Jason English (Host): again,

that's, uh, so it's all kind of

924

related to the, to the topic.

925

Um, and I, I probably bring this

up more than I should on these

926

episodes, but you know, it's life.

927

So I was, I was married a

long time and got divorced.

928

And again, going back to the, the good,

you know, the good, being the good

929

boy, good man, whatever in the church.

930

I mean, divorce was

never an option, right?

931

Like it

932

just never an option.

933

And, um, and so again, like that, that was

a, that was a consequence of, you know,

934

Hey, you know, we have three beautiful

kids and we, you know, there's a lot of

935

good memories, but you know, there was

probably some frustration and misery for,

936

for, for a good, for a good bit of it.

937

But anytime something like that comes

to an end, Um, whether, whether it was

938

planned surprise or, you know, whatever,

uh, it, there's grief involved, right?

939

And you, you kind of

have to go through it.

940

And so like the song death

without a funeral is a brilliant

941

way to sort of capture that.

942

Andy Gullahorn: Yeah.

943

Well, first of all, I love Jason.

944

I love writing songs with him.

945

We've written a lot of

songs over the years.

946

through the whole process of, you

know, before he got a divorce and,

947

and, uh, just kind of walking with

him through years of trying to make

948

it work and then going through the

divorce and all the things that.

949

You know, we've written a lot of songs

about, about that in all different

950

stages of, of the marriage, the end of

the marriage, and after the marriage.

951

And, and I've always been grateful that

Jason is, was willing to be vulnerable,

952

talk about that kind of stuff.

953

And, um, so when we, I can't remember

like how that first started that song

954

in particular, but, um, you know.

955

As friends, we're familiar, I was

familiar enough with things that had

956

gone on, um, and just kind of through

him knowing the way that it felt,

957

uh, to be able to write that song.

958

And I will say that, uh, yeah, just

that feeling of how much the marriage

959

was celebrated on the front end.

960

Then you have this death of a

marriage and it's kind of like.

961

It felt like.

962

it just kind of like faded out

and like some people are afraid

963

to ask about it or whatever.

964

It's just like, uh, yeah.

965

And how to, how to grieve that.

966

Um, it's a very complicated thing to

grieve because there's all, you know,

967

all different ways of looking at it.

968

And, um, what I loved about that song

in particular is, is Jason was sharing

969

a story about that kind of ended up

being the last verse of the song about

970

going, pulling up to the house where

they lived and they raised their kids

971

and she doesn't live there anymore.

972

And the kids aren't there anymore.

973

And, um, just kind of missing

all of what their life was.

974

And, but there, there was actually an,

uh, an apple tree that they had planted

975

when they're, when a dog died, like

years and years, maybe 20 years before.

976

And, uh, he talked about seeing like

one last apple that was in that tree.

977

And, uh, Yeah, and I was like by the time

we got to the third verse I was like man

978

We've got to use that as a third verse.

979

He's like we you know, I don't know and

I was like But then I said, you know, I

980

I said you reached up and took the apple

I said, you know, you take a bite of it

981

and it says the taste was still sweet

They they're still it with all the pain.

982

There's still something sweet about it.

983

And honestly, he was like Yeah,

I don't think I can say that.

984

Um, and I was like, that's totally fine.

985

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.

986

And then it was sometime after that.

987

He was like, okay, I think

I'm, I'm ready to say it.

988

I think I, I think I can understand, I

can accept some of the sweetness of the

989

relationship, all this kind of stuff.

990

And it's, it's not totally eclipsed

by the pain, uh, of the divorce.

991

And, uh, you know, so it's, I

just appreciate that Jason, his

992

friendship, so that there's enough

freedom in the friendship for

993

me to say, Hey, what about this?

994

Is this, does this feel true?

995

If it doesn't feel true, does it feel

like something that you could grow into?

996

Is it something that you would

want aspirationally to be true?

997

Cause that's one thing

that David Wilcox told me.

998

He was like, you, you don't just want

to write songs about who you are.

999

You want to write into

who you want to become.

00:55:07,293 --> 00:55:10,303

So part of it is like, I want you

want to be honest, but is that,

00:55:10,303 --> 00:55:11,783

is that somewhere you want to be?

00:55:12,133 --> 00:55:15,133

And if it is, we can kind of write

it into being, or if that doesn't

00:55:15,133 --> 00:55:16,613

feel true, then let's abandon it.

00:55:17,103 --> 00:55:20,843

And, um, you know, he was

like, no, after, after a while,

00:55:20,843 --> 00:55:22,143

he's like, yeah, no, I get it.

00:55:22,203 --> 00:55:24,103

And I think I'm, I'm ready to say that.

00:55:24,313 --> 00:55:30,283

Um, so that song is a hundred percent,

uh, out of Jason's vulnerability and

00:55:30,283 --> 00:55:34,663

willingness to, to be open and, uh,

and to help other people grieve too.

00:55:34,673 --> 00:55:36,533

I think that song has been really

helpful for a lot of people.

00:55:36,853 --> 00:55:37,133

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

00:55:37,133 --> 00:55:37,363

Yeah.

00:55:37,513 --> 00:55:38,633

It's, it's incredible.

00:55:38,773 --> 00:55:41,403

Um, so yeah, again,

well done and thank you.

00:55:41,453 --> 00:55:43,153

Um, all right, cool.

00:55:43,153 --> 00:55:45,553

So just a couple of other things,

you know, we talked a little bit

00:55:45,553 --> 00:55:50,746

about, uh, your influences, uh, and

then the fact that you're not part of

00:55:50,746 --> 00:55:52,153

the Christian music subculture, but.

00:55:52,503 --> 00:55:54,213

You're in and around it, I guess.

00:55:54,633 --> 00:55:57,853

Um, and we, I did mention

rich Mullins earlier.

00:55:57,883 --> 00:56:02,143

You, uh, you played on the, uh, I think

it's called the Bellsburg sessions.

00:56:02,343 --> 00:56:02,713

Right.

00:56:03,263 --> 00:56:06,223

Um, just sort of a remake

of some of his songs.

00:56:06,223 --> 00:56:10,228

And I guess, uh, I would

imagine that was pretty much.

00:56:10,388 --> 00:56:13,078

Kind of through the, your relationship

with Andrew Peterson, right?

00:56:13,328 --> 00:56:16,288

You, you all covered, uh, hello,

hello, old friends, right?

00:56:16,728 --> 00:56:18,238

Um, what was that like?

00:56:18,248 --> 00:56:23,418

Just, do you, do you have, uh,

any, any peek inside the, uh,

00:56:23,438 --> 00:56:26,748

the process there of, I think, so

what that was, is he, he lived.

00:56:27,148 --> 00:56:30,288

For a bit in, in Tennessee, uh,

in a place called Bellsburg.

00:56:30,303 --> 00:56:33,508

The, the house is still there and the,

and the homeowner opened it up for a

00:56:33,508 --> 00:56:37,288

bunch of artists to come in and record

in the, in the living room and maybe

00:56:37,288 --> 00:56:40,288

other rooms of that house, you know, some

of his songs that, you know, since he

00:56:40,288 --> 00:56:41,938

passed away in the, in the late nineties.

00:56:42,578 --> 00:56:43,988

Like, what was that process like?

00:56:44,078 --> 00:56:45,148

Um, yeah.

00:56:45,148 --> 00:56:47,908

And you, do you have any kind

of cool insight into, in,

00:56:47,908 --> 00:56:49,528

into the, into the recording,

00:56:50,773 --> 00:56:51,193

Andy Gullahorn: Yeah.

00:56:51,243 --> 00:56:52,423

It was a lot of fun.

00:56:52,423 --> 00:56:55,083

I think, well, I think about Rich

Mullins, who I didn't really listen

00:56:55,083 --> 00:56:56,683

to much until I got to college.

00:56:57,333 --> 00:57:02,323

Um, but, uh, I would say

Rich Mullins was like a.

00:57:04,168 --> 00:57:07,948

A big factor in, in, uh,

connecting a lot of people.

00:57:07,968 --> 00:57:12,708

So like, uh, you know, when I first met

Andrew Peterson and Ben Shive, who we did

00:57:12,708 --> 00:57:15,768

the stuff at Bellsburg together, like.

00:57:18,248 --> 00:57:20,718

There's, there's this feeling in

college and high school, like, Oh,

00:57:20,718 --> 00:57:24,538

I'm the only kid who listens to

whatever, like in my community that

00:57:24,538 --> 00:57:27,898

listened to rich Mullins are the only

kid who listened to Mark Cohn or who

00:57:27,898 --> 00:57:29,318

listened to David Wilcox or whatever.

00:57:29,668 --> 00:57:32,938

And then I meet like Andrew and

Ben and other people in that world.

00:57:32,998 --> 00:57:36,488

And you find out when they grew up,

they were listening to the same things.

00:57:36,488 --> 00:57:39,118

And like, they're like, I'm

the only person who says

00:57:39,118 --> 00:57:40,808

like, uh, we find each other.

00:57:41,648 --> 00:57:45,578

And rich Mullins was like

that for a lot of people.

00:57:46,073 --> 00:57:49,523

And so that's, I think that's what's

most fun about that project is like,

00:57:50,033 --> 00:57:52,903

there's so many people that were

touched by rich, not just his music,

00:57:53,433 --> 00:57:57,323

uh, but definitely his music, but

kind of his way of being in the world.

00:57:57,583 --> 00:58:00,583

Like, like what you were saying

and to go out to his old house

00:58:00,603 --> 00:58:04,243

and, and, uh, I mean, it just,

00:58:06,363 --> 00:58:09,833

Out with Andrew and Ben and we played

that song on the road, you know,

00:58:09,833 --> 00:58:11,243

when we traveled together a lot.

00:58:12,083 --> 00:58:16,103

Uh, but when we recorded that one, we

hadn't played it in years probably, but

00:58:16,103 --> 00:58:20,833

it was fun to get up there and just, I

think we played it three times to record

00:58:20,833 --> 00:58:22,543

it and it's just so fun playing with them.

00:58:22,543 --> 00:58:26,493

And we actually just last month,

they're doing a second Bellsburg record.

00:58:26,523 --> 00:58:29,713

So I went out and did another song

with Andrew and Ben and that did

00:58:29,713 --> 00:58:33,453

another one with, with Jill, my

wife, we did, uh, we did a different

00:58:33,453 --> 00:58:35,013

version of, uh, uh, Brothers

00:58:35,013 --> 00:58:35,493

Keeper.

00:58:35,993 --> 00:58:36,973

And then, uh,

00:58:38,293 --> 00:58:42,303

Andrew, we did, uh, land

of my sojourn, I think.

00:58:42,323 --> 00:58:42,643

Yeah.

00:58:43,693 --> 00:58:44,183

Um,

00:58:45,073 --> 00:58:45,733

Jason English (Host): that's a great song.

00:58:45,753 --> 00:58:46,943

That's actually one of my favorites.

00:58:47,003 --> 00:58:47,873

That's, that's awesome.

00:58:48,533 --> 00:58:49,043

Um, yeah.

00:58:49,043 --> 00:58:53,263

So what, you know, yeah, just being in

that environment, remembering, I mean,

00:58:53,263 --> 00:58:57,113

it's been almost, I guess it's been close

to 30 years, uh, since he passed away.

00:58:58,063 --> 00:59:00,273

You know, it's pretty wild that

people are still sort of paying

00:59:00,283 --> 00:59:05,063

homage to him and it's, you know,

back to liturgical things, right.

00:59:05,063 --> 00:59:09,963

So that the album, you know, a liturgy, a

legacy and a ragamuffin band, the legacy

00:59:09,963 --> 00:59:12,033

that he's left is, is, is pretty wild.

00:59:12,113 --> 00:59:12,923

Um, and.

00:59:13,503 --> 00:59:19,103

It's also wild and also frustrating

for me because there's so many people

00:59:19,103 --> 00:59:24,703

in the Christian music, uh, sort of

subculture 40 years ago, 30 years ago.

00:59:25,173 --> 00:59:31,783

That had an ounce of the talent that rich

had, but yet got so much more recognition

00:59:31,783 --> 00:59:35,173

and probably earnings and all the things.

00:59:35,273 --> 00:59:38,733

Um, so it's, it's cool that he's

left such a great legacy and it's,

00:59:38,933 --> 00:59:42,373

obviously it's sad that he, he,

he died in that car accident.

00:59:42,383 --> 00:59:45,233

Cause I, I just, I think about

all the songs that we didn't hear,

00:59:45,273 --> 00:59:46,583

you know, in the last 30 years.

00:59:47,183 --> 00:59:51,313

Um, yeah, it's cool that, cause

he, he had that same sentiment, I

00:59:51,323 --> 00:59:52,523

think towards the Catholic church.

00:59:52,533 --> 00:59:52,973

I mean, he.

00:59:53,308 --> 00:59:57,208

I think he ended up being Catholic

towards the end of his life because he

00:59:57,208 --> 01:00:00,848

appreciated, I think some of the same

things that you, you talked about earlier.

01:00:00,878 --> 01:00:01,218

Right.

01:00:01,258 --> 01:00:03,328

Um, anyway, so that's cool.

01:00:03,358 --> 01:00:06,528

And I just, yeah, it's cool that

you got to participate in that.

01:00:07,423 --> 01:00:08,333

Andy Gullahorn: Oh man, I was honored.

01:00:09,168 --> 01:00:10,188

Jason English (Host):

Yeah, that's awesome.

01:00:10,288 --> 01:00:12,138

so a couple more questions

and I'll let you go.

01:00:12,138 --> 01:00:13,718

So thanks again for your time, I guess.

01:00:13,798 --> 01:00:16,238

And I know your, your wife's involved

is probably more heavily involved in

01:00:16,238 --> 01:00:19,178

the Christian music industry than you

are, but what, what do you think the

01:00:19,178 --> 01:00:20,758

state of Christian music is today?

01:00:21,388 --> 01:00:25,778

Um, it just, it just, it just, I

don't, I'm not really like listening

01:00:25,778 --> 01:00:29,468

to a lot of the, 30 years ago.

01:00:30,638 --> 01:00:32,538

What's the state of the

state do you think right now?

01:00:34,403 --> 01:00:37,453

Andy Gullahorn: I, uh,

there are two answers.

01:00:37,473 --> 01:00:38,383

One is.

01:00:38,978 --> 01:00:42,038

I'm probably not the person to ask

because I don't listen to music much at

01:00:42,038 --> 01:00:47,448

all in general, but I definitely don't

listen to a lot of Christian music.

01:00:48,038 --> 01:00:52,978

Uh, although there are some writers

who are kind of in that world that I

01:00:53,028 --> 01:00:55,368

think are awesome that I encounter.

01:00:56,233 --> 01:00:59,333

I don't, as far as the business side

of things, I'm so far disconnected

01:00:59,333 --> 01:01:01,223

from that world.

01:01:01,423 --> 01:01:04,533

I, you know, I do occasionally

get to write with different

01:01:04,533 --> 01:01:06,463

people who are in that world.

01:01:07,113 --> 01:01:10,353

And, uh, there are a lot of really

great people in that, in that

01:01:11,313 --> 01:01:13,173

business and a lot of great writers.

01:01:13,813 --> 01:01:20,793

Um, uh, the second answer, when

people think of, of like contemporary

01:01:20,793 --> 01:01:23,083

Christian music, they think about like

what they might hear on the radio.

01:01:24,263 --> 01:01:26,143

Um, and.

01:01:27,118 --> 01:01:30,308

People ask me a lot about like,

why is this played on the radio

01:01:30,308 --> 01:01:31,538

and this not played on the radio?

01:01:31,538 --> 01:01:35,388

And, and this is kind of an old

argument and I'm like, whatever.

01:01:35,388 --> 01:01:38,628

I just, nobody's ever gonna

play my stuff on the radio.

01:01:38,628 --> 01:01:41,488

I don't, so it's like, that's

just, it's just not my thing.

01:01:41,938 --> 01:01:48,098

But I will say that, um, you know,

for a long time they would do focus

01:01:48,098 --> 01:01:51,798

groups for radio stations, for

programmers trying to get songs, figure

01:01:51,798 --> 01:01:53,278

out which songs to put on the radio.

01:01:53,808 --> 01:01:54,008

And.

01:01:54,468 --> 01:01:57,598

For, for some of those times they

would on these focus groups, they

01:01:57,598 --> 01:02:01,128

would just take like 15 seconds of

a song and play it for people and

01:02:01,128 --> 01:02:02,298

say, how does this make you feel?

01:02:02,648 --> 01:02:04,978

You know, like, does it

make you feel positive?

01:02:05,428 --> 01:02:06,548

Does it make you feel sad?

01:02:06,558 --> 01:02:07,398

Does it make you feel whatever?

01:02:07,738 --> 01:02:11,848

But what I heard is that it's not

even just 15 seconds of a chorus.

01:02:12,028 --> 01:02:14,108

It's just like any 15 seconds of the song.

01:02:14,608 --> 01:02:18,498

So if you think about like the pipeline

of what that does to writing is like,

01:02:18,818 --> 01:02:22,468

if your goal is to get on Christian

radio, and in order to get on Christian

01:02:22,468 --> 01:02:27,343

radio, people have to have a positive

experience of, of it in any 15 second

01:02:27,343 --> 01:02:30,313

segment of the song, then you're

going to write a song that kind of

01:02:30,323 --> 01:02:32,473

feels this way the whole way through.

01:02:32,503 --> 01:02:36,533

And what that, there's nothing wrong

with that kind of song, but what you

01:02:37,033 --> 01:02:42,183

end up losing out on is any song that

would have a story arc, any song that

01:02:42,183 --> 01:02:47,108

would, that would be kind of on the

darker side, uh, Like you just lose that.

01:02:47,518 --> 01:02:53,478

Um, so that's just to say that the

typical Christian radio song is

01:02:53,478 --> 01:02:57,868

groomed to be just this one kind of

thing where, where you feel happy, you

01:02:57,868 --> 01:03:01,008

feel uplifted, and maybe that's what

Christian radio is supposed to be.

01:03:01,178 --> 01:03:03,238

So if you want something different

than that, if you want something with

01:03:03,238 --> 01:03:06,788

a story arc, or that might, you might

be able to connect with the darker

01:03:06,788 --> 01:03:11,388

side of things or pain or grief or

whatever, then you just have to look

01:03:11,398 --> 01:03:15,248

elsewhere for the music, which luckily

there's a lot of other places to look.

01:03:16,228 --> 01:03:17,328

Jason English (Host): I mean,

that makes so much sense.

01:03:17,328 --> 01:03:19,788

I can't even tell you like,

that's the, that's the best

01:03:19,788 --> 01:03:21,108

explanation I've ever heard

01:03:21,918 --> 01:03:22,268

Andy Gullahorn: Yeah.

01:03:22,408 --> 01:03:23,088

I mean, it is.

01:03:24,433 --> 01:03:27,853

It starts working backwards where

the writers are like, okay, I know

01:03:27,853 --> 01:03:28,753

this is what's going to make it.

01:03:28,753 --> 01:03:30,753

So we have to write this thing.

01:03:30,753 --> 01:03:32,053

That's what the labels are looking for.

01:03:32,053 --> 01:03:35,823

And then, you know, it's, that's why

when people listen to Christian music,

01:03:35,823 --> 01:03:37,423

it's like, Oh, it feels everything.

01:03:37,783 --> 01:03:39,143

Why does it always feel

so happy all the time?

01:03:39,153 --> 01:03:42,453

Well, because if there's any

segment where it doesn't feel happy,

01:03:42,653 --> 01:03:45,123

it's probably going to get voted

out of being put on a playlist.

01:03:45,133 --> 01:03:50,203

So, um, I, I blame the radio

programmers for that, but, um,

01:03:51,078 --> 01:03:52,648

Jason English (Host): but you know

what, but you know what, Andy,

01:03:52,768 --> 01:03:56,378

it goes back to the whole thing

that we started with, which is.

01:03:58,133 --> 01:04:04,283

Even that's a great example of not

being a promoter or willingness to

01:04:04,633 --> 01:04:09,373

be other than a good, a good person

in, in only emphasizing the good.

01:04:09,433 --> 01:04:14,403

right, So basically, basically that's just

a reflection of a, you know, the problem

01:04:14,403 --> 01:04:17,303

we were talking about earlier, which is

there's so much pressure on, you know,

01:04:17,323 --> 01:04:22,423

black and white, good and bad being good

and, uh, living up to this like crazy.

01:04:23,383 --> 01:04:27,843

Uh, you know, uh, threshold

of, of life and behavior.

01:04:28,363 --> 01:04:32,973

I mean that, that, what you just said

makes, I mean, uh, for 40 years, I've

01:04:32,973 --> 01:04:36,893

been like, why again, in general,

why is this stuff so bad and like,

01:04:36,893 --> 01:04:39,953

so surface level, you just said it.

01:04:40,023 --> 01:04:43,363

Cause there, there, there's a real

reluctance and hesitancy to kind

01:04:43,363 --> 01:04:48,503

of go deep and dark and actually

reflect real life, which isn't,

01:04:48,593 --> 01:04:50,293

that's not doing anybody any good.

01:04:50,373 --> 01:04:50,683

Right.

01:04:51,513 --> 01:04:51,673

Andy Gullahorn: Yeah.

01:04:51,673 --> 01:04:55,113

I haven't put those things together

like you did, but yeah, in a sense it

01:04:55,113 --> 01:04:59,103

does feel like Christian radio can be

reinforcement for being the good kid, you

01:04:59,103 --> 01:05:04,323

know, like, like before it stops working,

you know, like it's, it's just like, Oh