PA school teaches you medicine. It does not teach you how to have a career.

Jordan Fisher is a PA in Colorado who wrote a book called PA Next Steps because he kept watching new grads get blindsided by the stuff nobody covers in didactic year. Credentialing. Contracts. Job searching. Money.

He's also moved between specialties, which is one of my favorite things about this profession and something I bring up constantly on here. You are not stuck. If you take a job in one specialty and hate it, you can move. Jordan explains how that actually works and why networking is what makes it possible.

This is a good listen even if you haven't applied yet, because it shows you what you're actually signing up for.

What we cover:

• What nobody teaches you about life after PA school
• How lateral moves between specialties really happen
• Credentialing and what new grads get wrong
• Finding a first job that won't burn you out
• Why networking matters more than your class rank
• What Jordan's book covers for new PAs, including the money side (not financial advice, just what to know about)

Resources:

Free Application Timeline: https://www.thepaplatform.com/services/free-application-timeline

Free Pre-PA Resume Download: https://www.thepaplatform.com/services/free-resume-download

PA Program Map: https://www.thepaplatform.com/pa-platform-map

Pre-PA Counseling: https://www.thepaplatform.com/services/pre-pa-counseling

Mentioned in this episode:

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Today's guest is a PA in Colorado.

His name is Jordan Fisher, and we basically did the exact opposite for our entire PA journeys.

So this is a really fun conversation and we're going to talk about some important stuff, like what happens after PA school.

Welcome to the Pre PA Club Podcast.

If you want to learn how to become a physician assistant, you're in the right place.

I'm your host, Savannah Perry.

Let's get to it.

All right, before we jump into today's episode, I wanted to tell you about an upcoming webinar.

So answering all of your interview questions, hopefully bringing some people on stage to put you in the hot spot and try your hand at answering some questions.

It'll be a lot of fun.

The link to register is in the description.

Again, completely free.

Just I like talking about interviews.

So for this month's free webinar, decided to talk about those, I'll be sharing more on Instagram.

Actually, this month I'm doing an Instagram store story with a tip a day tackling an interview question.

So make sure you're following along at the PA platform.

And I hope to see you there at the webinar.

But yeah, it'll be fun and it will be posted afterwards if you can't make it live, or you'll get the replay if you are signed up.

All right, so welcome to the Prepa Club Podcast.

I'm Savannah Perry, your PA host.

I don't know.

I'm a dermatology PA in Georgia.

I'm coming up on my seventh year of practice, which is wild.

And I've been doing the PA platform now for approximately six years, just helping pre PA students and hopeful PAs figure out what they need to do and figure out how to become colleagues, which is really cool.

So in today's episode, Jordan actually reached out because he wrote a book.

And I love a fellow PA author, pas, who are, you know, talking about different things.

And so when he told me about his book, PA Next Steps, I was very interested and very excited about this.

So Jordan has taken advantage of lateral mobility.

He took a gap year.

You're going to hear about all of this when we chat, but just really, really cool person.

And in his training, felt like there was a lot of stuff not being talked about as far as once you're done with PA school, which if you've been around the podcast enough, you've heard me echo those same sentiments with you.

Know they don't really tell you about contracts or negotiation or money and finance finances.

So I've tried to bring some of that to the podcast.

So we talk about that.

But if you're interested in his book, it's called PA Next Steps and you can go to PA nextsteps.com and he also so the book is only $10, which is crazy.

It's an ebook, but he gave us a very generous discount code so you can get 30% off, making it only like $6 or $7 if you use the code the PA platform.

I do not get anything from this.

It is strictly a resource that I think is helpful to you.

So check that out and I hope you enjoy it.

I'd love to hear your feedback and I'm sure Jordan would too.

But we'll get into today's interview.

Thanks for listening and if you have been around for a while, I would so appreciate a review.

Leave some stars.

Let me know what you want to hear more of on the podcast.

I have some amazing guests coming up that I'm very, very pumped to share with you, but always looking to know how I could serve you better.

All right.

Hey guys, I'm Jordan Fisher.

I'm a practicing pa. Been at this for about four years.

I've done a lot of jumping around, which is definitely encouraged in the PA profession.

So I did my first year in ear, nose and throat.

Saw myself getting stuck in that specialty, which isn't a bad thing at all.

But I just knew that ENT wasn't my true passion.

So I up and made a change to emergency medicine, which is, in my opinion, one of the best places to start your career if you can and you have interest into it.

Side note, I actually didn't have much interest in emergency medicine.

I just knew that was the best and broadest way to start my career.

So I did that for two years in Colorado Springs.

Learned so much, mostly how much I don't know and how expansive and specialized medicine is.

So did that for two years.

Got to experience the pandemic during that, which definitely was really difficult.

But it was quite a unique experience that I'll definitely remember for my whole career and certainly life after that.

My significant other got into nursing school so we up and made a move to a small mountain town called Steamboat Springs and that's in Northwest Colorado.

It's actually a place known for, last I knew, putting out the most Olympic athletes in the US So kind of a cool little spot for that.

We live about five minutes from a world class ski hill so now I currently practice in emergency medicine, or excuse me, now I'm in urgent care.

Forgot I made that change.

But I'm in urgent care in a rural setting.

So totally different.

Going from the second biggest city in Colorado into this small little rural town called Craig.

But definitely loving it, loving the change.

And again, really, I'd like to advocate for the fact that as a PA you can really switch around, switch specialties, experience a lot of things that I encourage you all to do that because it really makes you a better practitioner and your emergency medicine colleagues will appreciate it when you're a master of stopping nosebleeds and other ENT complaints.

Nice coming from myself, who has never switched specialties ever.

I'm glad we have somebody with a different experience because people ask me about that and I can say that I've never used the lateral mobility of being.

A pa, but hey, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Some people know what they love.

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, I've never been scared to move because I could get a job doing whatever.

So it's good.

Well, let's take it back a step.

And what brought you to the PA profession?

Was that something you always wanted to do or how did you figure that out?

Shoot.

So I'm 31.

I mean, nowadays PAs are much more common.

But you know, 30 years ago there wasn't a huge amount of PA, so I was lucky and unlucky in that I got to work with a PA when I was 13.

I tore my ACL, which is quite a common thing nowadays for athletes.

I met my orthopedic PA during that, and little did I know, eight knee surgeries later from recurrent sports injuries.

Him and I were besties.

He really showed me what the PA profession has to offer.

So I shadowed him a bunch and knew that medicine was my calling.

After again, it took up so much.

My young life and into my 20s, ruined my college athletic career, unfortunately.

But from there I knew that medicine was kind of going to be my thing.

But all of us have to make a decision at some point.

What part of medicine do we want to do?

And it's easy to think you want to go into physical therapy when you're the young athlete that really wants to get back to sports.

You're not the 80 year old with chronic back pain that really is not motivated.

So I learned that PT maybe wasn't the right thing for me and thought med school was my path and said maybe not so much.

And then really went back to my roots and said, okay, well, I'VE always known this PA Gary, and he's like, well, why don't you be a pa?

And I was like, you know, that's a really great idea.

And so from there, designed my college career.

About halfway through, I switched my major five times.

So I figured out, yep, this is.

This is what I want to do.

So from there, headed towards the PA path.

Nice.

Okay, so decided, had some exposure, Decided kind of in college, figured out which way you wanted to go.

What did that look like?

When it came time to apply, did you do a gap year?

No gap year.

Just go for it.

What was your process like?

Yeah, well, in college, I switched.

I was in pre med early on, switched away from it and switched back.

So had to, of course, curtail some college classes to make sure I was.

Had most of the prerequisites for most of the colleges.

Of course, that's what's one of the many difficult things that you guys are experiencing, is that you may be eligible to apply to 10 colleges or 100 colleges for their PA programs.

There's really no consistency, which is hopefully something that they'll change in the future.

But.

So I curtailed my college career a little bit for that.

Graduated, took three months off to travel to kind of experience the world, and then went back and said, all right, what.

What do I need to do to get into PA school?

Of course, you need your patient care experience.

So I was lucky enough to get a job in ear, nose, and throat as a medical assistant and then did that for a year and said, okay, I have my patient hours.

Let's apply.

And at that point, I went for it and went all in applying to.

I think I did 11 or 12 programs and spent too much money traveling around the country to all the.

The interviews that really don't have much heads up, like, hey, we're going to need to see.

You got to drop everything and fly here now.

But really committed to doing that.

Oh, my gosh.

Okay.

What.

For your gap year, what do you feel was valuable about that?

About not doing everything during undergrad or feeling like you had to.

Is that something that you think was a good move or that you would have done differently?

100%.

I mean, I think everyone should take a gap year before even starting college.

So you don't have my situation where you're changing your major five times and spending a lot of money, unfortunately, because of that.

So I really recommend people take a gap year from high school, which is not at all a common thing at this point, but I think it buys you a lot of maturity and just direction.

Not that you have to have it all figured out but, but it will save you valuable time.

That's quite expensive when you're in university, but I am a big advocate for travel.

It's hard to say that now with the coronavirus pandemic, but there's so much value in seeing other parts of the world, other cultures and really relying on yourself or a small group.

So I really think that's valuable.

But in terms of the career.

Yeah.

I mean when you're in your undergrad, there's, I mean school has always been your focus.

You don't know what it's like to work a 9 to 5.

You're usually working part time jobs, maybe full time over the summer, but you got to learn what it's like to grind for a year.

Working those 40 plus hours a week.

It will really change your mindset and will make you see, okay, well if I have to do this for 30 plus years for a career, I better find something that I'm going to value.

And that kind of lights your fire a little bit, gives you motivation to be there every day.

So I think there's real value in that.

And I mean again, I'm quite, I'm still pretty young.

But you do mature a lot in your, after your undergrad.

So I think there's a lot to be said to learn what it's like to interact with patients, to interact with physicians, to interact with your office managers or whatever other specialties or just other people you're around because you, you learn what it's like, how their thinking is and whatnot.

Without that, you're really going to be behind the ball if you go straight from undergrad to PA school.

There's so much beyond just the medicine, which is what the school is about.

There's so much more in terms of what a career is like.

Yeah, you don't learn, learn too much of that in PA school.

They just kind of, there's no, there's no time.

I mean it's not there.

Fault.

Yeah, I mean we have the same thing when we talk about the PA career.

You don't learn that during school at all.

But there's just not enough time.

So you got to learn that on your own.

And there's real value in being in a hospital or a medical office environment rather than your first day experiencing that while you're in PA school.

Yeah, for sure.

So you got in your first cycle?

I did.

I was lucky.

I again went all in and said I'm going to do Everything I can to do this.

I'm going to go to every interview.

I'm going.

I spent months working on my personal statement getting it right.

And I really sacrificed a lot because I said, I want to.

Hopefully you only have to do this once.

And sure enough.

Yeah, I wouldn't say you were lucky.

I'd say you were prepared.

Yeah, sure, sure.

Yeah.

I mean, plenty of people say, oh, yeah, I'm going to.

I'm going to try.

I'm going to apply.

We'll see what happens.

But I said, no, I'm going to get.

I put in the time to make sure that happens.

So you're right.

I appreciate you saying that.

It was not without sacrifice.

Yes.

And that's what it just.

Over the years, I've seen more and more like, everyone has to sacrifice something throughout this process, whether it's time, money, friends, relationships.

I mean, there's.

There is sacrifice at some level to become a page.

I've met a person yet who was like, oh, it was a walk in the park.

They invited me in.

You know, that's just not how it goes.

Which is good, though.

I mean, because this is a career choice you're making and they want.

Or schools want to see someone that's willing to sacrifice and that it means something to them.

So show them that.

No, I completely agree.

Okay, so so far, we're completely opposite.

I did not take a gap year.

I never changed my major.

What else?

But it goes to show you there's a lot of paths.

Yeah.

And that's what I want people to realize.

Like, there is so many.

There's so much variety.

And that's why in your PA school class, like, everyone has such a different.

Like, I don't even think there's truly a traditional applicant anymore.

Like, everyone looks so different in how they do this.

So.

All right, PA School, what was it like for you?

Oh, man, I kind of refer to it like war.

And people are going to say, well, like, that's ridiculous.

But no, it isn't that.

You have your tribe, your people that you are surrounded upon and depend on, just like you would when you're in the battlefield.

And granted, I just read the book Tribe by Sebastian Younger.

You should read that book.

It's phenomenal in terms of, like, how humans interact and.

But it's just on my mind recently, and PA school is very much like that.

You rely on the people you're around, which I really feel bad for the people that are in it right now.

And so much of it is zoom.

And you're away from your class because you miss that close knit community.

But PA school was rough.

It was really hard and I was lucky in that I was single.

I moved from Colorado to Maine, kind of packed up my tiny little car and said all right, here's to a new life.

And so I fully committed to it, but it was really hard.

I really would tell your audience to make sure you have your mental health in check and you have your whatever support system you have readily available for you because this is a hard thing for anybody.

Is there anything you did again, I moved back home for PA school.

We're opposite.

Is there anything you did making the move so like moving to a new area like you said, just like this is, you know, I'm going all in on this.

Was there anything you did or found helpful in that?

That as students are, you know, a lot of them are going to be starting in the fall soon.

Like what, what was helpful for you in making that change?

I think I.

One thing was I just again made sure I was really good about communicating with the people that could build me up, whether that was family or friends.

Just making sure that I was putting the effort in to reach out to them and keep in close contact with them because those relationships are quite helpful for you.

Same thing with Pa or like my fellow PAs.

Like when I was there, I made sure I was always studying people, surrounding myself with people and that helped me both school wise and just mentally and emotionally being around that community.

But everyone's different in that I'm definitely a social butterfly and that works for me.

But you just got to know what works for you.

If you're somebody that studies alone or whatever, just really make sure you have a comfortable routine.

That was another big thing.

Thing is humans love routines.

And so I was at the coffee shop with my friends most days studying and you just kind of had this cycle of here's our new body system, here's how we're going to study, we're going to take our exams, we're going to go to the same place to celebrate after and then we're going to restart routine will really help you in this process.

Included in that routine should be any form of what is it, Whether it's exercise, whether it's reading, whether it's meditating, whatever it is that makes sure that you're getting to recharge at the same time.

Yeah, that's great.

Those are great tips.

So you made it through PA school, then went into ent, which I'm interested because you said you worked in ENT before PA school, did you go back to that because it was a comfortable thing or because that's just where you found a job?

Like, what brought you to that?

So I knew I wanted to move back to Colorado.

I was lucky enough to set up some of my rotations here.

I got a job offer as a hospitalist, which I took and was super excited about.

I was like, this.

This is my jam.

It's a great place to start.

But that kind of fell apart and that I felt like I was getting promised things that weren't going to happen.

I felt like I was getting get taken advantage of a little bit.

And there was the fact that.

So I got hired on in April, graduated in May, didn't hear for them from for months, and like, was doing everything I needed to do to get ready to get credentialed and whatnot.

That's.

That's one thing that you guys should expect is that it's going to be months from when you graduate to when you're going to start your job, especially if you're at a hospital, because there's so much to that process in terms of getting your licensing done, getting your DEA done, getting your credentialing done.

And so I just felt like I kind of got left and was forgotten about.

And then like, they're out of the blue.

It's like, okay, you're going to start in another three months, you're going to be at this hospital.

Which they didn't tell me.

And I really felt kind of betrayed.

So I looked for another job.

And my.

One of the old ENT doctors that I worked for is like, I'll hire you yesterday.

I would love to have you.

He wanted me all along.

So I was like, okay, I'll take this opportunity.

So it was.

It was more so it wasn't my plan, but life works in weird ways.

And I went with that.

And I certainly don't regret it.

I learned a lot working in an office setting, working in the.

Or rounding on patients in the hospital.

So I got to see all sides of medicine.

So that was super helpful.

Cool.

Okay.

So one thing since I've never done it, is switching jobs and switching specialties.

I get a lot of questions about this.

So, like, I would say when I talk to like, prepa clubs or do webinars or whatever, one of the most common questions I get is, how does a PA switch specialties?

What do you do?

And I'm like, well, you just do.

You just do get a job.

You go, you train.

Was it really as Easy as that.

Like, what does that look like?

No, it's, it's not, it's not.

And there are some ways that you can do that.

So I always say, like, there are people apparently like yourself, who kind of know from the beginning that, hey, this is what I want to go into.

Some people have wanted to be ortho pas from the beginning, which I thought I was.

Turns out I'm not.

But if you know what you want to do, heck yeah, go for it.

I would never say don't do that.

But for those of you that I'm in that category that are really unsure of what they want to do and what part of medicine really lights their fire, I would say stay broad.

And so that can be really important earlier in your career, whether that's going to primary care, hospitalist medicine, emergency medicine, something where you're going to see all kinds of specialties in your practice and you're going to kind of have this broad umbrella that's a mile wide and an inch deep, rather than something that's going to ENT, where you're an inch wide, a mile deep.

So that's one thing.

If you think that you want to switch specialty, stay broad in the beginning.

How was I able to do it?

Well, the best way to get any job is networking.

And so I really think that's important and really do that as much as I can in my career.

So be friendly with everybody, save everybody, everybody's numbers, keep in touch with people, because that's the best way you're going to find out about job opportunities.

So to get into the ER even with one year experience is very difficult, especially in Colorado where the market's pretty saturated in the bigger cities.

So I was thinking that I was going to go back for a residency to get that training because then I thought, oh, I'd be able to get a job pretty easily with that training.

But I networked pretty hard and was able to get an interview.

And just again, just like with PA school, I really prepared hard and made sure that I'm good at interviewing, et cetera, et cetera, and was able to get that job.

So it was really kind of luck and networking.

But to switch specialties, you got to get the opportunity, which is done through networking.

And the best way to set yourself up for that is by staying broad in the beginning.

So now with that ent, or excuse me, that ER experience under my belt, I feel like I'm much more marketable to go into, say, orthopedics because it's like, well, I Plenty of joints.

I worked with orthos all the time in the er and they'll like that experience rather than, hey, I was an ent.

I don't have much experience with ortho.

Yeah, I know, that's.

That's a great perspective.

Did you.

I've heard Colorado's tough to get jobs, unfortunately.

Yeah.

What about switching to urgent care?

Was that an easy kind of transition switch or was that still like kind of had to work your way and find somebody to help you out?

I again, got the job through networking, but experience wise, it's super straightforward.

I mean, ER is, we had a fast track.

Many ers do that, which is more urgent care complaints.

And so I worked there some of the time.

So I was used to running an urgent care environment by myself.

So going into that or.

So getting a job in an urgent care was super easy with that experience.

But at the same time, in rural Colorado, it's hard to find that position.

So I just message or emailed people, called people, even people I didn't know, friends of friends of friends, you know, and was able to find a position that way.

So it's.

So it is really slow, scary to call, pick up the phone and call someone you've never talked to and they're like, and you think, oh, they're not going to give me any time of day.

They don't know anybody.

They don't know anything.

It's easy to rationalize that, but you would be so surprised what you can learn from a simple phone call or what can come of it.

I mean, I was talking for months to a hospitalist that I'd never met.

Don't even know what he looks like in Steamboat, and he was instrumental in getting me a job.

So go figure.

You know, people like helping people, so really lean on that when you're networking and make sure you pay it forward too.

Yeah, for sure.

And that's, I mean, that is one way where we were similar.

I mean, I use networking to find my jobs and really for all the job offers I got out of case, I think I did apply to a few listings and actually did and I interviewed at one.

But ultimately that's one thing I see like on Facebook and pas talking.

There's a lot of pas just applying to listings, which to me, like, I don't know, those aren't.

Those are gonna get a lot of applications.

Who knows what they're really looking for, that kind of thing.

But I did similar to you and people have listened to the podcast, have probably heard this, but I Just started sending my resume out to offices that didn't even have listings and talking to other PAs.

And it was really cool to see the connections I made, even as a student who I didn't know any of these people, but I remember being on my surgical rotation down like waiting to go in the or, and there was a PA there waiting to go in her or.

And she was like, oh, I saw your resume the other day.

We're not hiring.

But I passed it along to this office and I was just amazed.

I thought that was so awesome that she would do that, know me.

But she just.

Because I took the initiative to reach out with a cover letter saying, this is what I'm interested in.

Here's my resume.

And she saw kind of who I'd been working with, just, you know, pass that along.

And I ended up getting two calls from that resume getting passed along from places I didn't even send it to.

That's so awesome, right?

I mean, it just goes to show, I mean, think about it, right?

People love when things fall into their lap, right?

When you get some go getter that writes a great cover letter, has a beautiful resume and that falls into your lap even if you aren't hiring, you're going to be like, oh, I know somebody that can use this.

Yeah.

Or yeah, maybe I should, right?

Rather than imagine you have 100 resumes sitting in front of you and you're like pulling your hair up thinking this is going to stink, looking at all these.

I mean, that is such a great point.

I mean, there's so much value and just putting yourself out there and literally there's no downside.

And.

But again, I.

Same as you, I mean, I think about it now, if I see some go getter with a great resume, I'm going to be like, okay, maybe I don't know anybody, but I'm certainly going to pass that along, right?

I mean, yeah, that, that is so smart.

And I mean, I get there's so much value, like being in Durham.

Of course people will say, you know, I'm looking for a job in Durham if you hear of anything, which we're in kind of a suburban area, so usually there isn't.

But in the few instances where there has been something those I remember, I'm like, oh yeah, that person specifically asked me about this and I'll let them know that there's a job or pass their name along, you know, and that's.

When it pays to be prepared with a good cover letter, a good resume, all that, right?

You want something that's going to stand out because, hey, when you're the only one and it looks good, you're so many steps ahead already.

Yeah, for sure.

Okay, what is, what is your schedule look like?

What kind of stuff are you seeing in clinic as a pa?

So in urgent care, it's a lot different than what I was doing in the er.

I was lucky in that I worked in a place that really let us do pretty much everything we were comfortable with and would encourage us to do things we weren't with physician support.

So we were tubing people, we were lining people, we were doing all kinds of fun stuff.

That's really scary when you're new now.

It's a little bit more chill in the urgent care environment.

So I work three 12s, which has its pros and cons.

I mean, working three days a week is amazing.

Working 12 hours, not so much.

But I mean, with this, we are pretty closely tied to the er, so we see a lot of people that I'm sending up there with more interesting pathologies.

But urgent carrots, anything from colds to fractures.

Got to reduce a finger the other day, you know, so some fun things here and there.

Plenty of procedures, still plenty of suturing, splinting, etc.

So much of anything with the PA is what you're comfortable with.

And the more skills you can gain procedurally, the more you're going to get to do and the more people physicians will train you on top of that.

So really take the opportunity in school to do any procedure they're going to allow you to because it's going to be well received when you're a certified pa.

Yes, for sure.

Okay, well, let's talk a little bit about how we connected, which was because of your ebook PA Steps.

What inspired that?

Give us a little synopsis back cover summary.

Yeah, yeah.

So PA Next Steps is really a guide that I created to hand to a newly graduated pa.

So I can say, here's what you do, here's everything I learned.

You're welcome.

It's everything I wish I would have had.

And so much of the focus of PA schools is getting you trained up on the medicine, training you as a general care practitioner, and then releasing you into the world, which is fantastic.

But there's so much more to actually getting that first, like timing wise, from getting your diploma to getting your first paycheck.

So the book is really everything.

All the guidance I wish I would have had in terms of.

Oh, okay, here's how you get credentialed, here's what you need to get credentialed.

Here's how to apply for your license, here's how to write a cover letter, here's how to write a resume, here's how to network, et cetera, et cetera.

So it's helping you get certified as a pa, Helping you get a job.

And then once you get all this money, it's helping you decide, okay, what do I actually do with this?

Here's how I figure out how to wade through the confusion that is the student loans.

Here's how to invest in my retirement account.

Here's where's.

Where are the good places to save money to pinch pennies that will really set you ahead.

And so if you can kind of learn these processes early in your career, you're going to have a seamless trajectory to retirement if you figure out how to invest, how to pay off your loans, et cetera, et cetera, early in your career.

So all the stuff they don't lecture us on in.

Exactly, exactly.

Toss us out in the wild, huh?

Huh?

Right.

And I mean, there's so much value in that because, I mean, if you can learn, okay, here's one place I can negotiate.

Well, you can easily get a few extra thousand dollars.

You invest that few extra thousand dollars in the correct place in your retirement account, and by the time you're retiring, that few thousand dollars is hundreds of thousands of dollars.

And that's really not hyperbole, that's truth.

Yeah, well, that is.

I do wish there was more education and resources around that.

I mean, there's stuff out there if you search for it and kind of general stuff.

But I feel like PAs are in a very interesting position in that not all of us, but a lot of us finish school at a relatively young age.

And while there is a lot of debt involved compared to other professions, the debt to income ratio is actually pretty good.

Exactly.

Most PAs.

And so there's a lot of opportunity there, but there's also a lot of opportunity in negotiating and making sure that you're advocating for yourself in your career.

It's nice that PAs in general advocate for each other, and we have legislation and all that, but it also has to happen on a kind of local level where it's up to you if you want to stay at your job or you're not being treated well or getting the run around kind of like you were at your first offer.

So got to step out of that.

So where can everyone find the book?

Where's the best place to go?

Well, sorry, I just wanted to touch on That a little bit more.

You're so right.

And that it's really sad that there's not a lot of resources out there, but so much of it does fall to you on the personal level.

Right.

You have to make this effort to educate yourself monetarily to realize, okay, this is why it's important to get rid of my loans.

Because if you just pay with these massive loans, you can pay $1,000 a month and not make any dents and dents in them.

So you just.

It's so important to learn this early in your career because if you can set things in motion, you're.

You're going to have plenty of success because we do make a great income.

But it's easy to let that income go a little crazy to buy a new.

Celebrate with a new car after school, all that.

So.

So yeah, we just want to be.

Or I just want to be a resource to people early in their career.

But where can you find me?

So there's pa nextsteps.com p a n e x t s t e p s.com and the book itself is pa next steps.

So you can go online, get the book.

It will be your guide to everything.

Again, I wish I would have known.

I'm also on Instagram, pennsxteps and Facebook.

Same thing.

Awesome.

Okay, well, I'll have all those links in the description and then we'll definitely share link on social and all that, so y' all can find.

Much appreciated.

It's only 10 bucks, right?

Yeah.

I mean, again, it's.

It's not gonna.

I'm not gonna get rich off this thing, nor are you gonna break the bank on this thing, but there's some.

I mean, if you can just learn that.

Oh, okay.

I need to change my 401k from this account to this account that's worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.

And a $10 book's gonna teach you these simple changes, so go figure.

Awesome.

Perfect.

Okay, well, we'll send everybody your way.

And thank you so much for sharing your story and your time and can't wait to kind of see what your next step is.

Hey, cheers.

Yeah, no, it is fun being a different viewpoint.

A little bit of a dichotomy compared to yourself because again, there's so much out there for PAs.

We all take different paths to get here, but we're all headed towards a great profession.

And I just really want to encourage all your listeners to keep at it and you're going to do great and be great.

PAs.

Yeah.

Physician Associates.

Excuse me that.

That's.

That's the new thing.

I have to do an episode on that.

Yeah.