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In this episode...

Listening Between the Lines for Biblical Customer Service With Tom Vander Well

https://faithfulontheclock.com/listening-between-the-lines-for-biblical-customer-service-with-tom-vander-well

In Episode 160 of Faithful on the Clock, Tom Vander Well explains how to approach customer service biblically — and how to apply it in everyday living.

Timestamps:

[00:04] - Intro

[00:50] - Tom’s ministry and business background

[08:21] - Customer service as a biblical endeavor

[13:52] - Simplifying customer service to connect and remove the wall of complexity that frustrates customers

[16:34] - Listening versus having data and the need to “listen between the lines” for what the customer really wants and needs

[21:15] - The Holy Trinity of customer satisfaction

[27:06] - How to marry social expectation with a consistent customer service framework rather than a verbatim script

[33:35] - Bridging the gap between acting pleasant on a customer service call and being authentically honest

[41:13] - How technology is influencing customer service

[52:35] - How to connect with Tom and learn more

[54:20] - Prayer

[55:41] - Outro/What’s coming up next

Key takeaways:

• Biblical customer service begins with seeing people, not transactions. The principles behind exceptional customer service — listening, serving, integrity, empathy, and stewardship — are rooted in Scripture rather than modern business trends.
• Calling doesn't always look like our original plan. Tom's journey from aspiring pastor to customer service expert illustrates that God sometimes redirects us into unexpected vocations where our gifts can have greater impact.
• Frameworks outperform scripts. Great customer service isn't about memorizing exact words. It's about equipping employees with principles and allowing them to communicate authentically within a consistent service framework.
• Technology raises — not lowers — the value of human connection. As AI, self-service tools, and automation eliminate routine questions, the remaining conversations become more emotionally and technically complex. That means emotional intelligence and careful listening are more valuable than ever.
• Listen for the subtext. Great communicators don't just hear words — they notice what's underneath them. A comment like, "This is the fourth time I've called," carries frustration, fatigue, and a need for reassurance that should shape the response.
• Meet penalty expectations before pursuing delight. Courtesy cannot compensate for unresolved problems. Organizations should first eliminate recurring pain points, then create memorable moments that exceed expectations.
• People flourish when their gifts match their role. Businesses, churches, and families often place people where tradition says they belong instead of where they're actually gifted. Loving leadership means helping people discover where they fit best.
• Customer service principles extend far beyond customer service. Listening, serving, and seeking understanding aren't merely business skills — they're expressions of Christian love applicable in every relationship.

• Empowering Data-Driven Business Insights | Intelligentics
• Tom Vander Well – Author, Speaker, Emcee

Email Tom at [email protected].

CTAs:

• Choose one conversation this week where you'll intentionally listen for what's under the words rather than simply responding to what's said.
• Evaluate one process in your business or ministry that repeatedly frustrates people. Ask whether you're solving the root problem or simply apologizing for it.

What’s coming up next:

Episode 161 of Faithful on the Clock features pastor Christopher Beck, who explores the role of AI in shaping business, identity, calling, and the church.

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[Thibodeaux]

Welcome, everybody, to Faithful on the Clock, the podcast for Christian professionals where all the bubbles cling to the straw to get your faith and work aligned. As always, I’m your host, Wanda Thibodeaux. If you’ve ever gotten online or called customer service and felt frustrated, or if you want to ensure your own customers don’t have that experience, you are gonna love this episode, because I’m welcoming service expert Tom Vander Well to the show. He’ll show you not only how to do customer service well, but also how to connect it to biblical values and apply it through your entire life. Let’s head into the conversation.

[Thibodeaux]

Hello, listeners, and welcome to another episode of Faithful on the Clock. Joining me today is special guest Tom Vander Well. As the CEO of Intelligentics, Tom has spent more than 30 years listening in on recorded business conversations, such as customer service calls and sales conversations. He's heard something crazy, like 100,000 conversations or something like that. But he has created the Wayfarer blog, which is now available as a podcast, and he is also the bestselling author of This Call May Be Monitored: What Eavesdropping on Corporate America Taught Me About Business and Life. Today he's gonna share some of what he's learned from all that listening in and how it relates to biblical principles we can apply in our own companies and daily living. So, Tom, thank you so much for being a guest, and welcome to the show.

[Vander Well]

Oh, my gosh, Wanda, thank you so much for having me. It's just an honor to be here.

[Thibodeaux]

Sure. Well, usually what I do just out of the gate is I would always like to ask people — if people were to Google you and your background, give us something about your background and your company that we wouldn't find. Just give us a little bit, so that we know who you are.

[Vander Well]

[Thibodeaux]

Sure.

[Vander Well]

— and now I just do it as a podcast. And so, you may simply find, oh, well, Tom's got this devotional thing that he's doing online, has been doing for a long time. But then you also find out that I run and own this business, Intelligentics, where I do customer research and quality monitoring and customer service training and coaching, and been doing that for over 30 years. So, in my book, I kind of talk about being the man in the middle.

[Thibodeaux]

Sure.

[Vander Well]

Sometimes, I feel like in the church world people don't get me because I'm this business guy, and in the business world people don't get me because I'm this kind of church guy. And so, I sometimes feel caught in that tension, but I've learned a lot in that tension, and that's some of what the book is about.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah. Well, I'm actually glad that you mentioned that, because that is why I have you on the show today. That is what the podcast is all about — relieving that tension, bringing your faith and your work in together. And I think your company, especially, is a perfect example of how those things can work. So, tell me a little bit more about how you started your company, because I understand that you had some background in the ministry. So, maybe just tell us a little bit about that transition.

[Vander Well]

Yeah, and I talk about my story in the book and kind of flesh it out. But the way that it started — and actually, I didn't start the company. It was started by a gentleman by the name of Chuck Wenger. And when I met Chuck, when I was in high school. I was a brand new believer. And this is nothing people aren't going to know about me just by Googling me, but I'm an actor — trained as an actor, both in high school and college, and actually have done a couple of films. And so acting and theater are also part of my background. So, in high school, I was in this movie, and Chuck was actually the vice president of marketing for the movie company. Well, after the movie was over, he hired me for this after-school job, found out that I was a brand new believer. And what I didn't know is that God's calling on Chuck's life was to disciple young men. And so, he asked if I wanted to start meeting every week at 6 a.m. in his office. And for two years, he discipled me in a very disciplined and methodical way, and it was one of the best foundations I could have asked for. So, he's my spiritual mentor.

[Thibodeaux]

Okay.

[Vander Well]

[Thibodeaux]

So, you had mentioned in our pre-interview, too, that this company has really been centered around your biblical principles, and you kind of have this mantra that everything that you do — like all customer service — is biblical, or can be founded on those principles. So, I wonder if you can kind of speak to that, because I know that there's going to be people listening to say, like, customer service, are you kidding?

[Vander Well]

Right. And you know, I never wanted to be part of business. Never. This is not something that I wanted to do. But you know, when you kneel and surrender your life to Christ and say, "I will go anywhere you tell me to go and do whatever you ask me to do" — sometimes He does. And so, God calls me to this job that I would have never wanted, and it was absolutely the right place for me. And what was really cool is, Chuck, who had discipled me in being a believer, now is in a position where he's going to mentor me in business. So, two things. Chuck, he founded the whole business based on — he wanted to be Christ-centered. So, our mission statement — and he had everyone memorize the mission statement, I can still say it — C. Wenger Group designs and implements customer-centered systems to measure and enhance service quality by applying the principles of God's word to our lives and work. We become examples of integrity, servant leadership, bring profitable — or, measurable value to our clients, and profitably build our lives. That was the mission statement from the beginning, and it remains. And so, the point that you mentioned was, yeah, Chuck — one of the first things he taught me is like, Tom, we're going to help our clients improve their customer service, but do you realize that every foundational customer service principle comes straight out of Scripture? The golden rule — I don't know how many times I've had people like, well, I believe, yeah, if you just treat people the way they'd want to be treated, that's kind of the key to customer service. And people will tell me that, and I know that they don't know where the source of that actual principle comes from.

[Thibodeaux]

Right.

[Vander Well]

You know, going the extra mile is another thing that people talk about in customer service all the time. I don't know that they know where that was sourced. You know, all of these things — treat people well, servant leadership, servant-hearted, look out for them, put them ahead of yourself — all of these things come back to the very way that God serves us and loves us. And so, that became the foundation, and you know, I’m always — to this day we're always going back to, well, these biblical principles, because they work and they're timeless. They're eternal.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah. Well, one thing that I was thinking of, you know, as you're giving your background and you're kind of telling us about the company, though, is — I think, really, you know, and we’d — again, talked about this a little bit in the preinterview — is that, like, your spiritual gifts — like, we're all called to minister in our own way, but we tend to think of it like, you know, you get up and speak on Sunday, right. Well, I think you and I maybe have a little expanded view of that, where we can do that in front of the computer with our headphones on, listening to these calls, or whatever it is — wherever God puts us, He can marry that ministry into whatever environment that He wants. So, you know —

[Vander Well]

You know — and that — that was something that — one of the things, Wanda, that I struggled with in vocational ministry — is because the Protestant Reformation really tried to reform one of the problems with the Roman Catholic Church at the time, which was that there was this big chasm between the professional priesthood and the uneducated minions in the pews. And it was sort of like, well, there are these spiritual elite, and then there are — they’re commoners. And that was one of the problems that Martin Luther and John Calvin saw. So, they really raised this idea that no, every vocation is ministry. Motherhood is ministry. You can be a cobbler and it's a ministry, you can be a garbage man and it's a ministry. We are called to do whatever we do to the glory of God. And we say we believe that, but what I saw in the several Protestant churches that I served in was people still look at the pastor as a spiritual elite. And even in Protestant churches today, there's the pastoral staff who are the spiritual elite, and then there are the commoners who sort of feel like, well, I just show up on Sunday, I listen to the sermon, and I've done my religious duty. And we forget that no, no, no, no — we are all ministers of the Gospel of Christ. And so, throughout my entire vocation I've become really passionate about that. And when I teach and preach to this day, which I get a chance to do, I'm constantly hitting on that, because that's the gospel, man. Everyone taking the gospel everywhere you go. And I've seen it at work with my clients, and I just believe it passionately.

[Thibodeaux]

Well, I mean, again, you know, this is the idea of bringing who you are and your own gifts and using that in a certain way. I'm hearing that message, but I'm also hearing this idea that the Christian principles that you're applying don't necessarily need to be complicated. And I think in customer service particularly, it has gotten to a point where it's almost like — and we had talked about this — there's this wall that people are trying to get through, where they're wanting that simplicity, they're wanting that connection. So, with your background in storytelling and theater and all that stuff, what would you say to leaders who are in that position — they're trying to listen, but for whatever reason the wall is there? What do you think creates that, and how can we remove that so that we actually do better?

[Vander Well]

Yeah, the thing that I've discovered in call monitoring and in customer research is that you have to have a willingness to listen. And it's very easy — especially with entrepreneurs when you get to the C-suite and the executive levels — there's kind of like, I know, oh, I know my customers. You know, I started this company. I know all about them.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah.

[Vander Well]

But do you really? You know, the reality is that I've been married to Wendy for many, many years, and I'm still discovering new things about her as I listen to her all the time. The same thing is true of customers. And what happens, especially with entrepreneurs, is the company begins to grow from small to large, and you hit the point where your customer base is bigger than your gut. Your gut served you really well when your customer base was here, but now your customer base is here, and there's a reason why you're struggling, you're not getting to the next level, you're not growing the way you used to. And it’s a real challenge, because I — that's oftentimes when we get called in — to say, hey, we've got this problem, we're trying to move the needle and grow this thing. You need to listen to your customers, and then you need to listen to what's happening in those moments of truth when your people are talking to them. And it's hard sometimes for those entrepreneurs — I know my customers, and I know my people, I got a good team. Yep, you do have a good team, and they're really good people, but it doesn't mean they're great at giving customer service.

[Thibodeaux]

Right.

[Vander Well]

It’s true.

[Thibodeaux]

Well, I think really what I'm hearing you say is that there's a difference between listening — I really wanna drive this home though, because I know that there’s gonna be somebody who it’s gonna help, but there’s a difference between listening and having data. Because you can have all the data in the world and not really know, like you're saying, what needs to be done. And so, when they pull in somebody like you, what you are really doing — and I think what your gift is — is you are essentially listening between the lines for what the customer actually is saying, even though they don't maybe say it verbatim. You are kind of intuiting, and then you serve as the mediator or the translator for that business leader to say, oh, wait, wait, wait — yeah, go ahead.

[Vander Well]

Yeah, so no, this is a perfect question, because you're absolutely right. And it's just where my theater training comes in as well, because sometimes — I was taught in theater, it's not necessarily the line that you memorized and say. It's the subtext of what's being said underneath the line. And that happens in customer service all the time. That's a great lead into this. So, most companies that do quality assessment do it themselves — they have a team of people, they have the managers do it — and most of the time, what I've observed is that they just listen to what the customer service rep or the sales rep said and how they said it, and it's basically used just to hold people accountable to that conversation. However, there are all sorts of things happening in the conversation that go far beyond the rep who picked up the phone. For example, we have a client who has basically a subscription service every month for their customers. And we started hearing customers just even in the last few months, customer calls in and says, "Hey, my service was turned off. What's the problem?" "Oh, well, let me look that up. Oh, you know what? Your card on file expired." And I go, oh well, were you gonna email me or text me? "Oh no, we actually just send a letter out by the US Postal Service." And immediately I'm going — time out. Wait. Welcome to the 21st century. Hello. That is a problem — not for the CSR, they're just dealing with the system that they were given —

[Thibodeaux]

Right.

[Vander Well]

— and they didn't need to do anything different. But the people, the executives who are in charge of the system — it's like, no, no, no, you have a broken system. You have customers who are expecting the immediacy that technology affords, and you have a system that's mired in the 20th century, and you've got to fix that for your customers. Well, if you're not listening with that perspective, if you're only focused on what the CSR said or didn't say, then that's never going to come to light. And who knows when anybody in the company is going to go, "Oh, wow, maybe we should fix this." So, that's an example of a layer. But then the customer calls in and says, yeah, so I'm calling, I've got a question about my account. And okay, give me your account number — 1-2-3-4-5-6 — looking up — and the customer quietly says, yeah, this is like the fourth time I've called. And that's all they say. Now, most of the time, CSRs immediately just let that go by and they pick it up, but what that customer is saying — subtext — is I have called four times and I am not happy. They don't sound angry, but when they say, "Hey, this is like the fourth time I called," they are quietly saying, no, this is screwed up, and I really need resolution now. And they're also telling you, I need somebody to care that this situation has not been taken care of, and I need somebody to make this a priority to resolve it. So, that little comment, which sounds like it was thrown away, is a really huge comment. And if that customer service rep or that sales rep doesn't have the ears to hear it and hear what's being said, it's a missed opportunity to take good care of that customer.

[Thibodeaux]

Well, I mean, my husband actually works tech support, so I absolutely understand how companies are pressured to get through a lot of these calls or tickets, right? So, I completely understand that there's volume that you have to deal with. But something that I do want to address too is that, as I'm listening to your response, there's a difference between getting a fix in real time and being heard in real time. Because I think most people, even if they have called in those four times, as long as they feel like those four times are being addressed, they can wait for you to fix it — as long as they know that you care enough to go look for the solution. Does that make sense?

[Vander Well]

[Thibodeaux]

Sure. Well, I know I had just gone through some things with my website hosting, where I can absolutely testify to the fact that when you are losing time on things — because I administrate everything myself, essentially — when I have to go in and have things done, it's like, you know, I've been at this for an hour already, and I'm still chatting with you. Yes, I totally understand that. But what I'm hearing a little bit too is that we have essentially what I guess the psychologist would call your social script — the expectation of what you want to happen, that kindness that you're looking for — but then also, at the same time, and you know from working in business, customer service people, they also have their business script, that when someone calls in, they have exactly the script that they are supposed to say. So, I wonder if you can maybe give some advice to companies — how can we marry the two? Because I can tell you, I have called in, or I've been on the chats, and I'm like, I know you were scripted to say that, so that feels like you don't care. Maybe you're fixing my problem, but you've lost the empathy side. Or maybe because you're so into the script, you're not hearing really what I need fixed, right? Does that make sense? How can we fix this?

[Vander Well]

Great question. Here's the way that we approach it. I don't want anyone to be scripted in the classic sense — we tell you exactly what you have to say, and you have to say it the same way every time. Radio Shack did this years ago. I don't know if anyone remembers Radio Shack, but for a while they had this thing, their tagline was, "You have questions, we have answers." So, they told all of the people that when you call Radio Shack, they're supposed to say, "Thanks for calling Radio Shack, you have questions, we have answers. My name is Tom. How can I help you with this?" And it was terrible, because nobody wants to listen to that. And so, then people start saying it as fast as they can, and that's not doing anything either. That's what happens with scripting — it's stupid. But what you want is to create a framework. So, one of the things that we do is, we'll say, hey, in a greeting, make sure you ask what we call an inviting question. What's an inviting question? How can I help you today? What can I do for you? Wanda, how's your day going today? You can use whatever question you feel comfortable with, that's personal to you, that is casual for you, the way you would want to say it — but you just want that customer to feel like they're being invited into the conversation and we’re opening things up in an inviting way. And so, then you teach CSRs, hey, here's a bunch of different ways that you can say this, make it your own. What I call it is a framework — we're going to give you not a script, but we're going to give you the service skills that have to be present. And so, every conversation is framed with the same service elements, but every CSR does it a little bit differently in a way that they feel comfortable doing it themselves. And if you do it that way, it allows for individual reality. It allows for conversational presentation, but it also makes sure that every customer is experiencing the same service elements, maybe just in a different way.

[Thibodeaux]

Sure. Well, again, my husband works tech support, and so maybe I can flip it a little bit, because we absolutely need to think of the customer side, but I think businesses also need to think about their employees. Because if you are having to say this over and over and it gets burned into your brain until you just want to crawl into a hole and die — I guess the closest thing I can pull this into is, like, if you are preparing for a speech, what do they tell you? They tell you don't memorize it, bullet it, so that at the end you know your concepts, you know the framework. And it's essentially the same thing, and you're just applying it to conversation.

[Vander Well]

Absolutely correct. And this is where my theater training comes back as well, because it comes back to the fact that — and I've told countless people this — when you take a job, whether it's tech support or whatever, if you are on the phone all day talking to customers, you are a paid voice actor. You are. It may not say that on your job description, but that's what you are, because basically you are using your voice and you control the power, the pitch, and the pace of that voice, and you can manipulate your voice to do any number of things. And so, what you're being paid to do is to have this conversation and to present your side of that conversation in a friendly, personable, conversational way that is professional and capable, and not allow your voice to become a slave to whatever emotion you're feeling in the moment, which might be frustration and anger and boredom, or what have you. My grandmother — I watched this with my grandmother, Grandma Golly, when I was growing up. My mom was an only child, and Grandma Golly called every night, and invariably she called right in the middle of dinner. Didn't matter which time we had dinner, she would call in the middle of dinner. The phone would ring, and I watched my parents' eyes roll, like, oh, there's Grandma, and they're both kind of stewing, like she's gonna do this every night. And they get up, and whichever one would stomp — but when they pick up the phone: "Hi, Mom, how are you this evening." That's what we're talking about. We do that all the time. And the reality is, when you are a paid representative of a business, you're being asked to do that on every call — basically to control your voice and present an attitude that you may not be feeling in the moment. That's what acting is.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah. You know, one thing that I am thinking, as you're saying this, though, is like — to that point, though, sometimes we don't always feel it, right? So, how can we get past the point of feeling inauthentic when we're doing this job? Because you're right, that sometimes we do have to kind of act it. But how can we — speaking biblical principles — how can you be honest and still act? Does that make sense? Like, that's a hard line to walk.

[Vander Well]

No, it is. And so, it comes back to motivation, which again is another acting principle — you know, what's my motivation? But it's really true. As I coach people, I have to try and put myself like, what really motivates this person? And I would love it if every person was motivated by a sincere kindness and the fruits of the Spirit, but the reality is that's not humanity. I've had lots of people — and believe me, the people that I've worked with who are believers and who just get it and have that inner motivation to do things well are so much easier to coach. But not everybody has that motivation. And so, great example — I had this young man early in my career, back to one of the first people I coached. Brash. He's a sales guy. And I was in our first coaching session, and he walked in, and he's a big guy. He literally hovered over me — I was sitting at the table. And he goes, I just want you to know that you don't know anything about my job, and there's nothing you can tell me that's going to make any difference to what I do every day. And this is all a bunch of — Oh, we're off to a good start. All right, have a seat. Let's get started. And I coached that young man for over 25 years, at least every quarter, and I followed him in his career. But early on, his attitude towards me never really changed — he always resented that he had to do this. But early on I began to notice what is it that motivates this guy? He's your classic sales guy, and you know what motivated him? Money. Money, money, money. That's all he cared about. Money, money, money. I shouldn’t say that’s all he cared about. But making lots of money. So, I changed my tack at the next coaching session, because approaching it like you really need to care about people — that's not going to motivate him. I wish it did, but it's just not. So, I said, you know what, I know you want to make money — you're a sales guy because you want to make money. Here's the thing: We've done the research, and your customers are telling us that this is what they really expect when they call. These are the things that push their buttons and make them want to be loyal and come back to you time and time again. So, I'm just telling you, if you use their name conversationally, make sure they feel like they've got a relationship with you, if you care about something that hasn't gone right and just apologize that that didn't happen the way it wanted, and commit to resolving it — all these service skills I'm teaching you — if you do them, your customers are going to be happier. And the more satisfied they are, the more likely they are to want to continue doing business with you. They're going to be more loyal, and they're going to keep coming back to you, and they might even bring you more business — because, you know, I got this guy over here that I'm buying stuff from that I don't like, but this guy over here is really good. And they might give you more business, and guess what, you're gonna make more money. And wouldn't you know it — he would never admit it, ever, ever, ever — but he started doing the things that I coached him to do, and the data proved it, and guess what, he became a really successful sales guy. And probably the biggest compliment, one of the biggest compliments of my career, was over 20 years later when I was in a room with a bunch of newbies, and he's now like the senior global account manager, and he's like, "You guys, you're gonna hate Tom. You're gonna hate listening to your calls. I hate it, hated it my whole career. But you know what, listen to him. t'll make you a better salesperson, and it works."

[Thibodeaux]

There you go.

[Vander Well]

I’m like going, yes!

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah. Well, I think really what we're saying is there's this happy medium where if you understand what the customer wants and you understand what you want, they don't have to cancel each other out. You just have to find a way to work in the middle that's not completely just a bunch of lies — like you're being honest on some level with yourself, and you can work with that.

[Vander Well]

Yes, yes. And people always want to come back to the exceptions, because there are always exceptions. And so, let's talk about that. The customer is always right — that's not true. There are crazy customers. There are customers that need to be fired. There are customers that you just need to go, like, no, just go away, because they really do cost you time and energy and money in the long run. But those are the exceptions. And so in this business, what I've learned is you deal with the general rule customers with general rule service skills and a general rule this-is-the-service-experience-we-want-to-deliver, and then when the exceptions come along, you deal with them as exceptions. The problem is, too many businesses want to take the exception — oh, well, I've got this one jerk customer — and go, well, they're all jerk customers.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah, yeah.

[Vander Well]

No, they're really not.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah. Well, you know, maybe that is some of the reason why customer service is so hard. Because on the one hand, we've got the customers saying, "Oh my gosh, this is so hard to even get through this wall," right? And then we've got the employees saying, "Oh my gosh, I don't want to deal with these people." Like, nobody wants to be there.

[Vander Well]

Yes.

[Thibodeaux]

You know, but I mean, really what it comes down to, I think, from my side, is just that everybody's being human, right?

[Vander Well]

Yes. Absolutely.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah. Again, you know, like simplifying things and talking about being heard. But to that end, a while back in the conversation you had mentioned the iPhone, which I want to transition to, so that you have a chance to talk about this proliferation of tech that has happened in customer support — but also just, let's just face it, everywhere. So, I wonder if you can just kind of speak to that for a little bit about what you are seeing, how it's affecting customer service, and what advice you can give based on what you're seeing.

[Vander Well]

Yeah, the iPhone began the whole revolution in customer expectation. Amazon only exponentially amplified it. We do a lot of business in the B2B world — business to business, components, electronics, widgets that get manufactured and put into other things. And over the last five years especially, what we've seen is that in the B2B world, customer expectation now has leaped forward, where they expect — like a return. I expect the return to be as easy as Amazon, you know. I just tell you I want to return it, and you send me a QR code, and it's just taken care of. But the B2B infrastructure is a little bit more complex. It wasn't built for this, but customer expectation is being driven by that, and by the technology that everyone knows is available. It's like sending the notice by US Postal Service — everybody knows what's possible, so why are you doing it this way? And so, it hasn't caught up. On the other end, what we see is that technology has successfully taken care of a lot of what we'd call low-hanging fruit. In the early days of my career, we did a lot of business with banks and financial institutions, and the number one reason customers called was, what's my balance? Like, literally hundreds and hundreds of calls a day. What's my balance? Well, that's stupid. Nobody calls for a balance anymore, because we can get it a million different ways, and technology has made that available through the app or the website, or what have you. So, there are hundreds of calls that just went away. Technology has done that in almost every industry — where the simple questions no longer exist, because I can get that easily. So, what happens is, when that phone rings, you can be almost assured that the question, the problem is complex. And then you add to that generational differences — like millennials and Gen Z, they don't call unless they absolutely have to. They're going to try every technology, easy solution. If they get to the point where they want to pick up the phone and talk to a human being, it's serious at this point. So, what business has to catch up with is, number one, you still need human beings who know how to have a capable service conversation. Number two, those conversations are only getting more complex, but they're also more important than ever, because those are the conversations — when they do call you — that are the make-it-or-break-it moments. You could easily lose this customer if we don't resolve this and we don't really give them an idea that we care.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah, I mean, it kind of comes full circle, really. What I'm hearing you say is, because if the technology is taking care of what you call the low-hanging fruit, that kind of by default means that your customer service agents, or your employees, are going to need to learn to read or listen between the lines more so than they did before. They're going to have to use that emotional intelligence that has to be there, whereas before they could kind of maybe fudge it. So, maybe we could summarize the transition that way.

[Vander Well]

Yeah, and that's where the whole call monitoring and coaching is so important. Because if I can sit down with an agent and we can listen to that call together — where you hear the customer say, "Yep, this is like the fourth time I called" — and like, "Okay, stop the tape, did you just hear that?" "Hear what?" "What did the customer just say?"

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah.

[Vander Well]

It was like the fourth time I called. So, let's unpack that. Let's talk about that for a second. You know, if you can coach people to begin to hear the subtext, know the intricacies of that customer's mindset, that allows you to know, okay, now here's how you respond to that. And when you start having those kind of meta communication conversations in coaching, that's where things really begin to change.

[Thibodeaux]

What I love about what we're saying, though, is that even though we are approaching this obviously from the business context, if you put it into the theological context, really this is just about the connection that people have. You know, when you are trying to look at that and say, what am I really hearing, what do people need — like, again, like we had said, it does not need to be that complicated. We just need to hit pause, we need to slow down, and we need to learn to do that. But ultimately — let me maybe put it this way. If we are all servants of God, right, it's about listening to say, how can I serve you? And that's not just a business thing. That is a everybody-is-a-child-of-God-so-let’s-go-serve-each-other, Galatians 6:2 issue. At least, it is to me. So, all the things that you're saying here — I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not just a business issue, it is a life issue. You can apply everything that you are telling us. It doesn't matter, you can take it out of the company, you can take it out of the office. That is okay.

[Vander Well]

Yes. And so, I talked about in the book — you know, the Holy Trinity of customer satisfaction — I began very early on, once I kind of saw it and saw the patterns, one of the things I thought about is, wait a minute. When my wife hands me a task list, what's the number one priority? Doing the task list — resolution. She wants it resolved, and she doesn't want me to do it next week. She wants it in a timely way. And I'm like, going, oh, this isn't just business, this is life. These are human needs and expectations. And courtesy, and friendliness, and knowing that you care — and one of the things in our relationship that I began doing, like every home has its org chart. In our house, I do all the outside — lawn, landscaping, snow removal, garbage. My wife handles the laundry, and she doesn't want me anywhere near the laundry, which was just fine. But every week — literally every week — I walk downstairs and she's there, folding the laundry in the kitchen and living room. And I began, every time, every week, to say, "Thank you for doing the laundry." I just say, "Honey, thank you for doing the laundry." And she's like, "Oh, yeah, you bet." But I always say it. And when I come in from the yard — I'm sweaty and gross and dirty from doing the lawn — I never fail to hear my wife say, "Thank you for taking care of the lawn." You know, I've had people, when I talk about that, go, "Well, that's stupid. Why should I thank my spouse for just doing something that's expected?" Okay, well, there's the penalty variable, right? Well, wait a minute. Because I want to have a great marriage, I want my wife to feel valued and appreciated, and I want to be a grateful person — because that's a fruit of the Spirit, to be kind and give that love. And you know what, I just read online a couple of weeks ago — there was an article, and they did a study of 40,000 married couples, and they found that one of the most simple pieces of successful marriage was couples that both said thank you to one another —

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah.

[Vander Well]

— for the things that we do every day.

[Thibodeaux]

It's such a — again, simplicity. Like, it's something to do.

[Vander Well]

It is.

[Thibodeaux]

One thing I might add, though, too, to that is — I mean, words of affirmation, absolutely, like that matters. But I think really it's because everybody has their own love language, too. So maybe, if your spouse or your kids or whatever — if they're not responding to the words of affirmation, okay, well, maybe a gift once in a while, or maybe going out to spend some time with them. Find what they respond to and say thank you that way. I mean, that's really all I think people are looking for — to get that connection. And just however they speak it. And you know, we don't always receive the same way we give, so that makes it a little more complex, but you can figure that out.

[Vander Well]

Exactly.

[Thibodeaux]

You can totally do that.

[Vander Well]

It's exactly right. And we're back to the fact that we're all human, right? So, even in spiritual gifts — we talked about that earlier — you know, in the church, I find I have observed that one of the biggest challenges that I ever dealt with in vocational ministry, and I see it happening all the time still, is people who think they have a gift or wish they had a gift, but it's really not their gift. And so, you know, it's the classic — the person who can't carry a tune with a handle on it, and yet they think that they should be leading in worship. And there are all sorts of examples where, like, oh, well, I want to be the important person who's a teacher, but you know what, you don't have a gift of teaching. You just don't. It happens in business too, where people are in the wrong position. I see it all the time. Guess what — sales and service are two completely different animals, and there are certain people who are really gifted in sales, and there are certain people who are really gifted at serving customers with problems. Rarely are they the same person. And all the time businesses suffer because they got the wrong people in the wrong positions. And a lot of times in business there's this thing, like, well, Mary — she's been in the job now 10 years, and she's in line to become the next manager. And I'm like, oh no, no, no, no — Mary's the worst person to lead this team. Not because she's a bad person, she just doesn't have the gifts to do it, and it's the wrong temperament. But business gets into this track of, well, we just do things this way, instead of going, well, who's the best, most gifted person for this role? And the church does it, families do it, businesses do it — we all struggle with it.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah. Well, you know what — what I will summarize that as is, to be loving to somebody, you really have to listen to them in the bigger context. Because, like you're saying, when you are fitting that script of what the business expects you to do, maybe that's not the most loving thing. But in order to recognize that, you have to look at who they are and how they're functioning. And so, if that's not their direction, okay, but I can guarantee that there's somewhere else they can go in that company where they would be an asset. You just have to find where they fit. And that can totally be a collaborative process, too, by the way.

[Vander Well]

And I'm Exhibit A. I mean, I thought pastoral vocational ministry was where I was supposed to be. I confess — the reality was that's the last place I was supposed to be. I was supposed to be in this business that I wanted nothing to do with, and I had to learn the hard way where I belonged. But once I got there, it's like going, oh my gosh, God's plan was so much better than my own. And now that I look back — so that's been a big life lesson for me.

[Thibodeaux]

Well, I think that is a great place to kind of wrap up — just being able to rest in who we are and trusting in God's plan, right? So, but I do want to give you a chance — if people want to get to know more about what you do and your backstory, where can they go to learn more about you and maybe your services?

[Vander Well]

Yes, thank you so much. I appreciate that. So, my book, This Call May Be Monitored: What Eavesdropping on Corporate America Taught Me About Business and Life — it's available on Amazon. It's the easiest way to do it. The audiobook is going to be available within the month. It's not out yet, but we're getting very, very close. So, if you're an audiobook person, it will be there eventually, but it's available on all the various platforms. My personal website is tomvanderwell.com, and there you can find my Wayfarer blog and the chapter-a-day blog. My podcast, The Wayfarer Podcast, is available on all major platforms — so just search on your platform of choice for Tom Vander Well Wayfarer, and you should be able to find it there. If you're interested in Intelligentics and what we provide, you can find us at Intelligentics.com — that's just the word intelligent with an ICS at the end. And finally, you know, I love to talk, so if you are looking for a speaker at your next business event or Christian business event or something that you’re looking for a speaker, I would love to be that person. Feel free to reach out to me. My email address is [email protected].

[Thibodeaux]

All right, so I will definitely make sure that we get all of those links in the show notes, so that it's super easy for everybody to get in contact with you. But if you have heard the show at all, you know that if I have a guest, I always like to pray for them at the end. So would you mind if I do that for you?

[Vander Well]

I would love that. Thank you.

[Thibodeaux]

All right. God, I just ask that you give your blessings to Tom, because the words that he is listening to are important. They give context, they give meaning, and if we don't have those things, we have rupture a lot — we have broken relationships a lot. We don't fix the things that need to be fixed, and I'm not just talking about your tech or whatever it is, right? Those relationships that need repair, the connections that need to be there. So, Lord, just help him and continue to do his job well. Help him share his insights that he has gathered over his many years of service, and help him mentor to other people, so that that listening can get better, even through other people, through him. In Jesus' name, I pray. Amen.

[Vander Well]

Thank you so much, Wanda.

[Thibodeaux]

Of course. All right. So, I will go ahead and, as I said, make sure that all those links are there. And this has been wonderful, Tom. Thank you so much for your insights. I really appreciate the conversation.

[Vander Well]

Been an honor. Thank you so much.

[Thibodeaux]

Thank you.

[Thibodeaux]

Was that a fantastic show, or was that a fantastic show? I’d just really encourage you, like Tom and I said, don’t just apply this stuff in your job. Apply it everywhere, in your whole life. I’d also, of course, point you once again to become a member or give a one-time donation to this podcast at faithfulontheclock.captivate.fm/support. In two weeks, we’re talking with guest Christopher Benek about the influence AI is having on business, identity, and the church. Get ready for that to drop, and be blessed.