In this episode, Kirsten and Bey talk to the VP of Communication for Grindr, Patrick Lenihan. Patrick shares how Grindr became a popular hub for gay people to meet, chat, and hook up. Later in the episode, Dr. Jayatri Das is back with her findings on hook-up culture in today's world.

Links for this episode:

• Learn more about Grindr
• Learn more about Dr. Jayatri Das
• Read a transcript of this episode

Hello and welcome to So Curious, presented by the Franklin Institute.

We are your hosts.

I am an incredible rapper named The Bul Bey!

And I am a mind-blowing stand-up comic!

I'm Kirsten Michelle Cills.

On this season of So Curious!, we are

talking all about the science behind love, sex, and relationships.

Everything from your brain on love, to why

we obsess over our favorite television characters, to how science and tech are

changing our relationships with each other.

For this episode, we are going to be talking with the VP of Grindr, Patrick

Lenihan, and we're going to be discussing the popular gay dating app.

And later, we are joined by the chief

bioscientist of the Franklin Institute, Dr.

Jayatri Das, to get some insight into the role science

plays in the behaviors and social norms around hookup culture.

Bey, I'm going to be honest with you.

I am so stoked to talk to our first guest.

Something that I know about Grindr is that it's less of an algorithm and it's more

proximity-based, which is, like, pretty ahead of its time.

So with Tinder, there's more of this

complicated algorithm, but Grindr is all about proximity.

Yeah.

So Grindr presents you with options based on who is closest to you physically.

Literally, down to the 100-foot measurement.

And the cool thing about Grindr is it was so revolutionary, because it was the first

platform to really build community for gay people in your area.

Have you ever been to New York's Pride? I haven't.

As a gay myself [laughs], Pride rocks!

You can't walk more than 100 feet without running into Grindr merch.

It is everywhere. They are, like, the kings of this.

And they really found a way to bring together communities, especially in areas

where it might not be as okay to be outwardly gay, maybe in different parts of

the country, different parts of the world, to still be able to find each other.

Yeah. Which is very cool.

Yeah.

Not every town in rural America is going to have a gay bar.

Right. Or just interests, right?

Interests that kind of intersect in these

particular communities and pockets of places.

Yeah.

How are you supposed to meet your fellow gay people if there's no drag brunch?

Yeah, right.

That's where I've met all my closest friends.

Mimosas...!

Well, this is a great time to introduce

our first guest, who knows more about Grindr than most people.

Patrick Lenahan is vice president and head of communications at Grindr, the world's

largest social networking app for gay, bi, trans and queer people.

As Grindr's chief spokesperson, Patrick

represents the company to media investors and the broader LGBTQ+ community.

Thank you so much for being here, Patrick.

Welcome to the So Curious! Podcast.

Can you tell us more about your history, the history of Grindr, how revolutionary

it has been for the gay community and beyond?

I came out as a gay man 20 years ago.

When I came out -- and I think that a lot of people have this experience -- even

though I lived in northern suburban New Jersey, which is relatively cosmopolitan,

and you can sort of like, see Manhattan from certain points in town, you still

have this impression that you're the only gay person in the world.

And that has been, I think, a prevailing

experience for a lot of queer people throughout history: not knowing whether or

not there are people like them, and not being able to find one another.

That sense of isolation is incredibly heavy and tough to carry.

And that's what queer community has been,

is people coming together around these commonalities.

Grindr was invented in 2009, relatively soon after the launch of the iPhone.

This was, like, an early, first-generation app when apps were the sexiest new thing.

"There's an app for that."

Right! Those sorts of commercials! And it was invented by this guy, Joel Simkhai in

Los Angeles, who was like, "I want to find my people, I want to find gay people.

And it's got to be easier than looking around and guessing." And so

he developed this really, really simple technology, and it's just

people who create profiles, and seeing those people in proximity.

If you download Grindr today,

it's not really dissimilar from what you would have seen in 2009.

You see, upon creating an account, the

first 100 people who are closest to you, who are also on the app.

And you see the information about those

people that they choose to share with you, a profile photo, their gender, their age,

what they're into and interests, whether or not they want to share photos, whether

or not they want to meet up, things like that.

And you can see whether they're online,

and you can chat with anybody who's sort of in your area.

And then there's a variety of feature sets

that are sort of behind some paywalls and that expand your reach and your ability to

talk to other people to 600, or unlimited....

We have roughly 12 million monthly active users, which is a lot of people, and

they're all queer, and they're all looking to connect with one another.

And so our mission, which -- this is now a

13-year-old company, and so it's been through different leaders and groups of

people running it -- but I think the mission has stayed more or less the same.

And the way we describe it is, it's our

mission to connect queer LGBTQ+ people with one another and with the world.

And you mentioned proximity just a second ago.

Why is that so important to building community?

The Internet has opened up the world to everybody, and we can create community

online, but speak really quickly to proximal communing, and just connecting.

I think a lot of social media aims to BE

your social relationships, to completely intermediate them.

And that is not what Grindr does.

Grindr is there to accelerate your social relationships with people offline.

And so the point is to actually meet people and to get to know people.

And yeah, you can chat on the app for as

long as you want, and if that's where you're most comfortable and feel like

connecting there is what's right for you, then that's great.

But the idea is that people who are close

to one another will want to meet up in person, and we are encouraging of that.

Obviously, you have to be safe and we have

this very detailed, robust safety guide that we share with all of our users.

But we think people meeting people is really important.

It's sort of like the foundation of it's,

somewhere in the middle of Maslow's hierarchy.

So we think it's pretty important.

Well, first of all, I just want to say I

love what you just said a few minutes ago about growing up in a smaller town, and

then just really feeling like you're the only queer person there.

I'm from the suburbs outside of Philly,

and it's so interesting how Philly is such a....

I mean, famously gay! You know, we have

the Gayborhood, and that's where I ended up going to college.

But prior to that, I remember feeling the exact same way.

It's like, "oh, I'm the sole gay person in

the world." And then I moved into a place called, on Google Maps!, called the

Gayborhood, with rainbow signs on every street sign and, you know...just amazing.

So. I love that thought.

I've never put that into words before, but can you tell me, in your personal

experience, did you use Grindr prior to working for Grindr?

Oh, yes, funny story!

We love those.

I was living in the Middle East in Doha,

Qatar, and a friend of mine came back from the US.

And was like, "you would not believe what they have now!" I was like, "What?!?

Like, there's an app just to find other gay people, what?!?"

And you couldn't download it there, and there are reasons why you couldn't

download it there that you could fill a whole other podcast about...

But, so, I didn't really download it until

after I left. I was in Doha for two years, and then I moved to San Francisco.

And then I got to San Francisco -- I land there -- I spent years in the Middle East.

I'm not acculturated to

[laughs] Northern California, and didn't have any gay friends there.

And so the first thing I did was download Grindr.

And even though I lived like a mile from the Castro, that was still one of the ways

where I started to make gay and queer friends right off the jump.

And I was like, "oh my God, there's so many of us here!"

Grindr does not feel like Match.com, Tinder, Bumble.

It's not designed the same way it came

before these apps, and it's designed very differently.

So those apps all, it's like a swipe model, right?

You're like shown a card and you see some information, you see a picture, you see

some pictures, it's left or right and you make a decision.

And maybe you match, maybe you don't.

There's basically a control valve these companies have of how many people they're

showing you, and it's algorithmically determined.

And it's probably a little bit like gambling, right?

Like, they're going to give you a match

one in every 125 swipes to keep you interested and engaged.

We don't do that.

That's not the point.

We hope people make connection.

And at the core of the queer LGBTQ

experience is sex in one way, shape, or form, right?

Sexual expression, sexual exploration, identity.

So at the core of any gay app is going to be sex.

But it's much more than that, I think.

And the app's structure of the application speaks to that.

My own personal experience with Grindr has

been way better when it's about just making friends and chatting with people in

new places than getting into the whole hookup-y thing.

That's fine and good and great, but personally, I have been, in my life, less

frustrated when I'm just on there looking for friends and people.

Did the community create Grindr or did

Grindr help cultivate the community, how people interact and talk to one another?

I will say definitely Grindr did not create the community.

Absolutely not. Yeah.

And specifically, "hookup culture."

Did the app create that culture, or was the culture already there?

Definitely not, I think.

Okay, great.

The great thing about being gay is there's actually this incredibly long and well

documented history, particularly since the 1960s.

Or even since the 1950s. A ctually, for the last 2000 years!

There's some pretty fascinating history

documented of LGBTQ people, whether or not they were called that.

And more recently, you've got books like

"The Answer from the Dance," and "Faggots," and "Giovanni's Room." And

these are all books that were written in the 50s, 60s, 70s, and they describe a

culture that anybody who's in the queer community today would read and go, "oh,

yeah, that sounds like Saturday night at 3-Dollar Bill!"

I think hookup culture existed

for sure, although most of my adult sexual life has been since Grindr was out.

But at the same time, Grindr is not so much a product of the community.

Grindr is like so many pieces of

technology, kind of like a mirror or a cipher for human behavior.

At its core, it's a very simple and basic piece of technology.

It's literally just accounts on a proximity grid.

That is like, really basic stuff.

And all of our competitors have copied that [laughs].

So it's really how you use it.

And I think it's really with all pieces of

technology, like Jia Tolentino's, "Trick Mirror," where she talks about, we look at

this thing and we see human behavior on this unbelievably massive scale that we

probably were never supposed to see it at, right?

And I think a lot of what we see in this

giant, giant "Trick Mirror" is stuff that we don't particularly like sometimes.

And sometimes it's stuff that we do really like.

We have I think a tendency to focus on stuff that we don't.

In any event, I think that it's definitely a product of gay culture in many ways.

I mean, I don't know, we could go deep on this for a long time.

To just straight answer your question,

Grindr is more the product of the community than anything else.

Yeah. And I feel like one of the beauty of

Grindr specifically is that it's creating, it's taking something with

so much history -- like you said, that had to, at many points in history, be

underground -- and making it visible and then as a result, safer in so many ways

and making it more transparent, which is incredible.

And so I'm curious because, for example, during New York Pride or

Philly Pride, there is so much Grindr merch everywhere, right?

Which is amazing.

What would you say is Grindr's presence offline?

What is your mission in supporting local queer spaces?

This is something about which I personally care a great deal, and the company is

really committed to. We've talked about how we see ourselves as facilitating and

accelerating social relationships, not replacing them.

And there is a whole and the sort of hyper-local nature of our business is

showing people things like, right there, that they can go and walk to and meet.

And we want that to carry over into how we

support queer businesses, bars, nightlife and experiences.

That, over the last two years has been

something that's been pretty hard to do, with COVID.

And we've sort of fought that fight as everyone else has.

We've done a lot to partner with a group called Save Our Spaces, which is focused

specifically on helping keep LGBTQ bars and nightlife venues open and thriving.

And we've, I think, done 30 different bar

activations, all COVID-protocol compliant, just to keep

driving traffic to those bars where we traditionally have showed up.

And we want to make sure those bars continue to be successful.

There is no Grindr without gay spaces.

There's really not, right?

I think that there's a lot of...

One thread of things that I hear, and I've been at the company three months, so I've

heard everybody has called me to criticize the company, and to praise the company,

and I've sort of heard everything from every side.

And one criticism is, oh, well, Grindr's killing gay bars.

I was like, I don't actually know if

that's true because, yes, you can now go on Grindr and meet people.

And before you could only really go to gay

bars, at the same time, it's become much more socially acceptable to be gay.

So I think gay people are showing up sort

of everywhere, and everywhere is a little bit of a gay bar now.

And you can take it or leave it, but I'm a big believer in having space that is

specifically for queer people and puts queer people first.

And I think we are looking for, now that we're moving into sort of this next phase

of COVID where things are -- we know how to handle things -- I think we're going to

be doing more stuff offline that we're really excited about.

Just for people who may be listening and

aren't super familiar with the logistics of Grindr, can you just tell us how you

specifically provide that info to other users?

Totally. So when you sign up, we walk you

through it, you sort of have to click all the boxes and say all the things.

And we encourage you to take a look at our privacy policy.

And we will regularly push into the

Inbox -- which is just where all your messages show up -- we'll push messages

letting you know about things going on in your community.

We'll let you know about, if there's safety things going on, or there have

definitely been times when there's been an STI outbreak in a particular area, and

we've been able to push a notification to encourage testing, things like that.

So that like really basic. It's really basic.

It's just literally sending messages to people, based on where they are, with the

information that we think that they're going to need.

And this becomes particularly helpful in countries -- because we're not just

operational in the US, we're operational in nearly every country in the world, and

that includes countries where it is illegal to be gay.

And we don't operate in those countries

because we think we're going to get subscription revenue or anything.

We operate in those countries because the third-party LGBTQ+

activists who are operational there have asked us to stay operational in those

countries, because we create opportunity for people there to connect with one

another that they really wouldn't have otherwise.

There's a greater burden of security in those places.

So in places like Egypt, we push daily

safety messages to our users, letting them know about what's going on.

And we do that in a number of different

places where it is much more risky to be gay.

And again, that information typically is coming from -- it's not our information,

it's information from these nonprofits and third parties.

We're just acting as connective tissue again, and making sure our users stay

safe. W e don't monetize or make any money

off it, this is purely like, this is just the right thing to do, to stay in these

countries and to help people connect with one another, even if there are risks.

Which is amazing.

And I'm really happy that you're here to share that.

So people know that Grindr extends beyond connections.

It's also information, it's also safety,

it's all these different things rolled into one.

So, Patrick Lenahan, thank you so much for taking the time to come on here and talk

to us about not just the app and not just the culture, but the overall community.

And just learning these different

dynamics, it certainly was enlightening for me.

Yeah. Thank you so much.

We really appreciate your time. Thank you guys for having me on.

I really appreciate it.

[show music]

So what surprised you most about this conversation around Grindr?

Oh, my God. I thought I knew everything about Grindr.

My biggest takeaway from that is how

Grindr works in other parts of the world and areas where it might not at all be

okay -- it's sometimes illegal -- to be gay, and so then they have the whole not

just their usual community and all that, but then they also have the ability with

those extra features in places like that where they have notifications to keep

yourself physically safe, keep your health safe.

That is dope. No, it's really important.

Like, if there's an STI outbreak in a certain pocket of a place, you can

know about that, and have information about your health, that is always good.

For me, what stood out was:

it's not all about sex.

For me, what stood out was:

Some of this was just about building

For me, what stood out was:

community and meeting people with similar interests.

For me, what stood out was:

You might be in a space where... Obviously we live in a cis-hetero-dominated

For me, what stood out was:

narrative space in most of our communities.

For me, what stood out was:

So being able to navigate and meet new people is always fun and always great.

For me, what stood out was:

We're social animals.

For me, what stood out was:

We need to always build and grow, no matter what our orientations are.

For me, what stood out was:

Yeah. Not everyone gets the luxury of living in

For me, what stood out was:

the Gayborhood in Philadelphia, like I did all through college.

For me, what stood out was:

I'm sure that was fun. Oh, buddy...!

For me, what stood out was:

[laughter]

For me, what stood out was:

On the topic of hookups, first of all, we can see how insane the

For me, what stood out was:

changes in science and medicine -- the positive changes -- have been, from as far

For me, what stood out was:

as hundreds of years ago to 50 years ago to even five years ago.

For me, what stood out was:

And it really changes the risks and the perception of hookup culture, right?

For me, what stood out was:

Because now we have a lot more of an ability to do it safely.

For me, what stood out was:

Absolutely. I haven't hooked up a bunch, and I'm in a

For me, what stood out was:

relationship right now, so I don't hook up at all.

For me, what stood out was:

But what I really appreciate is just how that's really being held as a "normal

For me, what stood out was:

human behavior," the nee,d or desire, the urge, to want to connect with someone and

For me, what stood out was:

be intimate or have a moment, a brief moment, but do it safely and do it in a

For me, what stood out was:

way where we're not dehumanizing anyone or jeopardizing anyone's health.

For me, what stood out was:

So I appreciate that.

For me, what stood out was:

Really entering the space of science and

For me, what stood out was:

behavior and medicine and so on and so forth.

For me, what stood out was:

As with all questions that come up, we got a consult with our girl, the chief

For me, what stood out was:

bioscientist at the Franklin Institute, Dr.

For me, what stood out was:

Jayatri Das. Hey, Bey.

For me, what stood out was:

Hey, Kirsten. How are you?

For me, what stood out was:

Good. How are you?

For me, what stood out was:

Good. So we're talking hookup culture, right?

For me, what stood out was:

Uhhh...Yeah.Hell, yeah.

For me, what stood out was:

Aren't we always?

For me, what stood out was:

Well, I think what fascinates me as an

For me, what stood out was:

entry point into this topic is just how common it is.

For me, what stood out was:

I was looking at some data, and some of the most recent data actually suggests

For me, what stood out was:

that looking at college students, 60% to 80% of college students have had some type

For me, what stood out was:

of hookup experience, and it's common among younger teens as well.

For me, what stood out was:

But this is clearly, like,

For me, what stood out was:

a very common experience that's kind of embedded in our culture these days.

For me, what stood out was:

60% to 80% is a large number. That's a big number.

For me, what stood out was:

Yeah.

For me, what stood out was:

So, Jayatri, tell us a little bit about

For me, what stood out was:

your research in the topic of hookup culture.

For me, what stood out was:

Well, one of the things that I was interested in, from a biological point of

For me, what stood out was:

view is, where is this culture coming from?

For me, what stood out was:

Because maybe it's always existed, but

For me, what stood out was:

we're also seeing some changes in physiological trends about how our bodies

For me, what stood out was:

work that intersect, again with some social trends that I think people are

For me, what stood out was:

looking at, as a reason for why there's this prevalence of hookup culture.

For me, what stood out was:

And so if you look at the United States,

For me, what stood out was:

the age at which people get married and reproduce is getting later and later, and

For me, what stood out was:

that's definitely tied to a lot of social factors.

For me, what stood out was:

And at the same time, the age at which

For me, what stood out was:

kids are reaching puberty is getting younger.

For me, what stood out was:

And so there's this longer time span in which young adults are ready for

For me, what stood out was:

reproduction and physiological interactions in that sense,

For me, what stood out was:

but they're not psychologically or socially ready to settle down yet.

For me, what stood out was:

And so that increased time frame, I think, is part of the reason that scientists and

For me, what stood out was:

social scientists think, that has given rise to the prevalence of hookup culture.

For me, what stood out was:

Interesting. So if I'm understanding you correctly,

For me, what stood out was:

there's a much larger gap now between when you're physically able to, and might have

For me, what stood out was:

the physical urges to have sex versus when socially and logistically and all of that,

For me, what stood out was:

you can actually be building relationships.

For me, what stood out was:

And so that gap is sort of leading to things like hookups.

For me, what stood out was:

Yeah, that's right.

For me, what stood out was:

So if you look at some of the causes of why we think kids are entering puberty

For me, what stood out was:

earlier, you look at just the fact that we're healthier across the board.

For me, what stood out was:

So there's lower rates of disease.

For me, what stood out was:

Nutrition is changing.

For me, what stood out was:

People have more stability in terms of their health, their food, their shelter.

For me, what stood out was:

There's also some theories that there's potential environmental exposure to

For me, what stood out was:

chemicals that might disrupt our hormone function.

For me, what stood out was:

There's a lot of questions.

For me, what stood out was:

We don't really know why.

For me, what stood out was:

But you can see trends in that the average

For me, what stood out was:

age of puberty has decreased by almost a year, which is pretty significant when

For me, what stood out was:

you're thinking about the lifespan of kids.

For me, what stood out was:

Yeah. What was the prior average age?

For me, what stood out was:

What did it downgrade to?

For me, what stood out was:

So you're seeing shifts from age 11-12 down to nine or ten.

For me, what stood out was:

Hundreds of years ago, we were looking at puberty at age 15-16.

For me, what stood out was:

Wow. Right.

For me, what stood out was:

When people were really facing a lot of

For me, what stood out was:

hardships in just sort of getting to that age beyond childhood disease.

For me, what stood out was:

Yes.

For me, what stood out was:

Which is interesting, because I feel like in older days, at least, the way it's

For me, what stood out was:

portrayed in movies, yeah, you did go through puberty later, but then that was

For me, what stood out was:

immediately the age you, like, got married!

For me, what stood out was:

Exactly. Right.

For me, what stood out was:

There was no gap. You didn't have time to hook up.

For me, what stood out was:

Yeah. Right.

For me, what stood out was:

Aww, no time. Yeah.

For me, what stood out was:

I'm starting to notice that there seems to be like, some legitimacy around just

For me, what stood out was:

sexual pleasures and developing a language around that.

For me, what stood out was:

Maybe hookups are part of that. I don't know.

For me, what stood out was:

Okay, so we're going to switch gears to part two of "Body of Knowledge."

For me, what stood out was:

We went to the Internet to find out what people are asking about hooking up.

For me, what stood out was:

We typed in, "how do hookups," and we let the Google algorithm do the rest.

For me, what stood out was:

I'm so curious to see what comes up.

For me, what stood out was:

We saw some of the most commonly asked questions about hookups were, "how do

For me, what stood out was:

hookups work?" I would love to know as well.

For me, what stood out was:

If I ever find out, I will let them know.

For me, what stood out was:

Yeah, I mean, should I try to answer that?

For me, what stood out was:

Yeah, go ahead.

For me, what stood out was:

How do hookups work?

For me, what stood out was:

Well, it's normally after 07:00 p.m. Maybe?

For me, what stood out was:

I don't know.

For me, what stood out was:

Okay, so the next question that we put into the Google search, right, is "how do

For me, what stood out was:

hookups," and the autocomplete" "how do hookups start?"

For me, what stood out was:

How do hookups start?

For me, what stood out was:

I mean, you know, a little, "wink, wink, nudge, nudge."

For me, what stood out was:

Yeah. Wearing your hottest outfit, feeling good.

For me, what stood out was:

Yeah.

For me, what stood out was:

I would imagine it's different for everyone.

For me, what stood out was:

There are different entry points. I guess.

For me, what stood out was:

[Laughter] That may have been a terrible framing [laughter], but...

For me, what stood out was:

There are platforms and apps and numbers and groups and communities.

For me, what stood out was:

There's just different ways, I guess, to do it in 2022.

For me, what stood out was:

Some of the work I was reading really focused on the fact that both the

For me, what stood out was:

motivations to hook up as well as the reactions afterward that people experience

For me, what stood out was:

are really complicated, and we don't understand them very well.

For me, what stood out was:

So, for example, in one study, they looked

For me, what stood out was:

at people who are experiencing, maybe feelings of loneliness or depressive

For me, what stood out was:

symptoms, who might look at a hook-up as a way to feel better.

For me, what stood out was:

And in those people, they did see a

For me, what stood out was:

decrease in those feelings after hooking up.

For me, what stood out was:

So there's like a positive impact there.

For me, what stood out was:

But in the same study, if you looked at

For me, what stood out was:

people who had fewer of those depressive symptoms starting out, then often these

For me, what stood out was:

casual engagements end up feeling more depressed afterwards.

For me, what stood out was:

So it's hard to figure out and just really

For me, what stood out was:

pinpoint why people are doing this for any specific reason.

For me, what stood out was:

I think it really differs and there's a

For me, what stood out was:

whole spectrum of reactions and feelings that people feel afterwards.

For me, what stood out was:

Next, we continued typing in, "how do

For me, what stood out was:

hookups," and the next question was, "end."

For me, what stood out was:

How do hookups end, Bey?

For me, what stood out was:

Hopefully pleasantly, with everyone being okay with what took place.

For me, what stood out was:

Hopefully, amicably?

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Yeah.

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And...quietly?

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[laughter]Great. Okay, Jayatri, what do you think?

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How do hookups end?

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There's a whole spectrum, right?

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There's a little bit of data in terms of

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what makes people more likely to feel regret.

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And some of what I read was that one-night stands, or hooking up with somebody that

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you've known for less than 24 hours, are two factors that are more likely to

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predict whether you'll feel regret afterwards.

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Damn, that tracks though.

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I mean, it seems like common sense there.

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Yeah, right.

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I wasn't really surprised to read that.

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Jayatri, as always, thank you so much.

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And thank you so much to Patrick for being on this episode of So Curious!

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Next week we are going to talk about what is going on under the surface when we fall

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in love -- literally, like biologically, what is going on?

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This and more on next week's episode.

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And don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. Wherever you listen to podcasts

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and music and content, just subscribe right now.

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Do it. So Curious!

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is presented by the Franklin Institute.

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And special thanks to the Franklin

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Institute producers, J oy Montefusco and Dr.

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Jayatri Das.

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This podcast is produced by Radio Kismet.

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Radio Kismet is Philadelphia's premiere podcast production studio.

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The managing producer is Emily Charish.

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The producer is Liliana Green.

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The lead audio engineer and editor is Christian Cedarlund.

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Head of operations is Christopher Plant.

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And the editors are Lauren DeLuca and Justin Berger.

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The science writer is Kira Vallette.

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And the graphic designer is Emma Sager.

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And I am The Bul Bey, signing off for today.

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And I am Kirsten Michelle Cills, also signing off for today.