Join Laura and Xhafer, two internet strangers, as they get to know each other while making jokes about one of their favorite TV shows from their childhood, Babylon 5.

Laura and Xhafer reach the edge of the rim, reviewing the last piece of media in the B5 universe, Babylon 5: The Lost Tales.

Hello and welcome to Who Are You?

2

We're the Babylon 5 watch cast that's

about to not be a Babylon 5 watch cast.

3

This is my last time saying it.

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By a couple of former strangers

who are now friends who got to

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know each other over one of their

favorite shows from their childhood.

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Babylon 5.

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I'm Laura.

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I

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Xhafer: And I'm Ja'far.

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Laura: can't believe

that's the last one for me.

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You get the next one.

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Yeah.

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Xhafer: Yeah, I'll take the next one.

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I think I took the first one.

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I don't remember.

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Laura: Yeah, maybe.

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I don't know.

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We've been as equitable as we could.

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Xhafer: Yeah, we definitely

tried to, to split it up a bit.

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Who do you, well, it would be

whoever did the first, who are you?

21

The other person would have done the

intro because we always tried to trade

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it when it was a one of us centric intro,

the other one would always bring us in.

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Laura: That's right.

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Yeah.

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Xhafer: so I just blew someone's mind.

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Someone's listened to all of

this podcast and never caught

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Laura: Not noticed it?

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No.

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Xhafer: Right.

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Laura: But then sometimes

we have special one offs.

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You know, guests and

weird things that we did.

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So,

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Xhafer: there's, there's

a lot of stuff in between.

34

Um, we, we did try to be

very equitable with it.

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Um, just like, I hope people

tried to be equitable with

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their viewings of the Lost Tales.

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Laura: Yeah.

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That's, so the last piece of artwork

in this series is Babylon 5's The Lost

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Tales, at least as far as we're doing.

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We're not doing like all

the, all of the books and

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Xhafer: Now, if we, if we go back,

um, it will be because there's

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something new or we set up a Patreon

and wanted to read a book or something

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or talk about something else.

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This will be the last of our

regularly scheduled Babylon 5

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series coverage, universe coverage.

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And we will get super emotional

about that next episode.

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Laura: time.

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Not this time.

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Yeah.

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Xhafer: recording the back to back.

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So I think we're we both came with a

mindset thinking of a lot of that stuff.

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I know I've been thinking about

what I would want to say and things.

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So I imagine we'll be kind

of sappy because of that more

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so than a normal episode.

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Also, we're recording at a

really weird time for us.

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Laura: Mm hmm.

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Xhafer: Your new student

laissez faire lifestyle

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Laura: Oh yeah, sure.

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Xhafer: worked 40 something hours this

week already, despite it being Thursday.

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I think I'm at like 43, 44

hours on the clock right now.

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I'm going to be taking a half day today.

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So it's the like middle of a day,

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Laura: Yeah.

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So weird.

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Xhafer: of the middle of the

day of a work, a weekday.

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It's also Halloween today.

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Laura: Oh yeah.

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Happy Halloween.

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Xhafer: Halloween.

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Happy Diwali.

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We don't have a lot of subscribers in

India, but very few listens from that

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country to our podcast, but happy Diwali.

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And then also it's a Samhain,

obviously, cause it's Halloween.

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So a whole bunch of stuff.

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It's a fitting day to talk

about this first Lost Tales.

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Laura: Yeah, for sure.

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Very big spooky vibes

in the first Lost Tales.

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I just want to say, up top.

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it's a lot of fun.

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That I had big Mandela effect

problems with the Lost Tales.

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I don't know what I thought the Lost

Tales was about, but this was not it.

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Xhafer: All I remembered was Sheridan

and Galen talking at the end.

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Laura: Honestly, I didn't

even remember Galen.

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I had like, in my head that there

was some kind of Sheridan and

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Kosh situation, just like a turtle

Kosh suit, like the beginning.

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I.

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I don't know what was going

on in the old brain there.

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And I thought there were

three of them, not two.

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I don't know

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Xhafer: There originally was

supposed to be three, and there

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are three people on the cover.

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Laura: It's that.

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It's that did it to me, I'm sure.

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Xhafer: Yeah, there was supposed

to be one with Garibaldi that was

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gonna be much more effects intensive.

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Um, and they were all supposed to be

like little 25 minute, 30 minute things.

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And then they cut the Garibaldi

one and expanded these out

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to almost 45 minute episodes

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each,

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Laura: Yeah.

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Xhafer: but close.

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Um, okay.

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So we are in, we started at 2281.

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And we get the effects budget, the

show wishes it had, we get this

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gorgeous shot of Babylon five exploding

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Laura: For real.

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Yeah.

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Like the CGI in this, I thought,

I don't know why, I thought

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the Lost Tales looked bad.

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Because That CGI was really good.

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Xhafer: it's CGI is so much

better than I remember in this.

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And I don't know if it's because

we just watching crusade,

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Laura: Yeah,

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Xhafer: um, but that was

a whole thing with this.

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Although there were people at the

time complaining that the CGI was bad.

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I read a thread on midwinter that

was a bunch of people complaining

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about the CGI of Lockley's quarters.

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That was a real set.

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There was

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not CGI involved in that.

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Laura: Yeah.

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I mean, maybe it wasn't quite

like her original quarters.

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I do feel like some of the set was just

like slightly different that, you know,

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probably they didn't have the original,

so they were just doing their best.

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But that didn't bother me.

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I think.

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The thing that made me think,

oh, the CGI in Lost Tales is

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bad, is the green screening.

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Xhafer: There's a ton of green screening.

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Laura: That is not good.

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Xhafer: The green screening is not great.

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Um, I have to think though, all

the models, like if you, like when

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we talk about how CGI works from a

modern standpoint, it's not great.

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And it would have been done in this

method for this show for lost tales.

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I have to believe where it's,

you have assets and you reuse

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them a bunch and stuff, right?

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So you build a very high detailed

model of Babylon five, and then you

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can reuse it as much as you want.

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Right.

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Laura: Sure.

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Mm

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Xhafer: Stuff like that.

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Um, this is, I mean, this is how CGI

was done in the movies at this point.

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I remember Star Trek 2009, there

was a whole really good documentary

145

on the DVD set about it, the

Blu ray set, whatever it was.

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So a lot of this stuff hypothetically

could still exist like the digital assets.

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Hopefully they weren't lost.

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They probably have been.

149

Uh, But you could take something like this

and just move everything over to a modern

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3d rendering engine, like unreal five.

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And all it would do is update how the

lighting works and how a handful of the

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like interactions between objects work.

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And it would look like a modern TV show.

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No doubt.

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Laura: Yeah.

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Xhafer: It would look great.

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And even the green screening,

they, I mean, that was the way

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you did these things at that time.

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Nowadays, you have those stages that are

the green screen where it's rendering

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in the background for the actors to

actually be able to look and interact

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and you're filming on it and stuff.

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Laura: That would be so cool.

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Xhafer: I can't, I have to imagine

that style of production for this type

164

of thing would have looked seamless.

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It would have looked great.

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Laura: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Those green screens had to be it

that distracted me because they were

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so noticeably, like, not active.

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Xhafer: The, like the

cutting around the actors,

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Laura: Yeah.

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Xhafer: was like a little bit

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Laura: like an edge.

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Mm hmm.

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Yeah.

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Just really distracting.

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Xhafer: Especially at this time frame.

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Okay.

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So we 2281 station blows up.

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We rewind to 2271 to catch

us up objects and rest.

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Objects in motion and the road home

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So it's been four years since crusade.

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The drug plague has ended

sometime in that timeframe.

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Laura: Okay.

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Yeah.

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Xhafer: Lando and Jakar kill each other.

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December 24th, 2278.

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Laura: So that has not happened yet.

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Xhafer: Correct.

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That is seven years in the future.

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Sheridan dies January 20th.

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2281.

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Laura: Yeah.

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And I think we specifically say

that this is 10 years in, right?

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When we get to Sheridan's.

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Yeah.

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Xhafer: Yeah.

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Well, that's why we, cause he dies when

the station blows up because poetry,

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Laura: Yes.

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Of

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Xhafer: So, we're in that timeframe in

between we're post crusade, we're pre all

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of the other future stuff that we've seen.

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So we're in this kind of like amorphous

area and we start with a tale that takes

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place with Lockley and father Cassidy.

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Laura: Did you wish this was Brother Theo?

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Xhafer: wish this was Theo so bad.

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This would have been so good for

Theo coming back to the, the show.

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And even the dialogues, very

Theo esque Cassidy's dialogue.

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maybe, I mean, there's an argument to

be made to not make it Theo because

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of the struggle that the priest

has with his faith a little bit.

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I don't think that's something that

that that'd be a harder time for

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me buying that from Theo, given

all of our interactions with him.

213

I feel like he's very, eh.

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Does the thing, um, maybe to the

detriment of the plot, because if there

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isn't that stall time that unluckily

can't figure it out as it were, um,

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Laura: yeah.

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Xhafer: but man I want to like run through

the synopsis of this for our listeners.

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Cause I'm guessing there's people,

especially if you are a modern Babylon

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five watcher, this is like lost media.

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I have no idea how you watched this.

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Laura: It is available on, um, Apple TV.

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Yeah.

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Xhafer: Um, it's not on

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Laura: have to pay for

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Xhafer: things.

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Yeah.

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Laura: Nobody's streaming this.

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Xhafer: Well, you can't even

like buy it on YouTube or

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like, uh, whatever it is now.

230

It used to be Flickster, um, Voodoo.

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Right, so whole thing anyways

it's difficult to watch.

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So I want to make sure we do a pretty

good job of synopsis thing to plot because

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I'm guessing people haven't watched

this in a long time if they have or they

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Laura: Yeah.

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Or they have big Mandela problems like me.

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Xhafer: Yeah, but I really want to talk

about this chunk of this episode of

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Laura: Yeah, sure.

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Xhafer: first episode.

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So, uh, they're not titled in

the, in the production, but the

240

two names of these mini episodes

are over here and over there.

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Laura: Yeah.

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Voices in the dark over here and over

there is what Wikipedia is showing

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me, but I don't think that was

anywhere within the actual episode.

244

Yeah.

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Xhafer: but that that's

what they're called.

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So, uh, we get a little little

bit with Lockley meeting father

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Cassidy luckily got promoted.

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Colonel not captain

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Laura: I did notice that.

250

Good for her.

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Xhafer: Lockley talks to

the father in her quarters.

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After he lands, the father waxes poetic on

the natural decline of faith when humanity

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went to the heavens and found them empty

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Laura: Yeah.

255

JMS is going through something

and writing this one, right?

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Xhafer: for sure.

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Like,

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I don't know.

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I I'm, I'm the, I'm the wrong

person to ask this question.

260

And I'm the wrong person to ask

this question to, um, do people

261

think heaven is like physically up?

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Laura: Like, in space?

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Yeah.

264

I, I, that feels kind of like

maybe a, um, disingenuous read on

265

religious people by an atheist?

266

Xhafer: Yeah, that's

what it felt like to me.

267

Like, I mean, I went to a Catholic

school you know, for a bit,

268

I've had some experience with

the church and the religions.

269

Um, I'm not like coming at

this completely out of nowhere.

270

I had always assumed, even as a very

small child, heaven was metaphorically

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up and hell was metaphorically down,

not physically, and that's, of course.

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Right?

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Like that's science, like space,

like I had never thought this is

274

up for debate and then it's like,

okay, is that just like a product

275

of growing up post space age?

276

Like now that we've, now that we've gone

up and we've dug down, is this the natural

277

consequence of that kind of thinking of

living in a world where we, you know,

278

space was achievable before I was born?

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Laura: Yeah.

280

Xhafer: So is that just the

zeitgeist has morphed this idea?

281

I

282

Laura: Like when, when JMS was growing

up, was that a very, very common

283

assumption that heaven was in space?

284

I don't know.

285

I don't know.

286

It didn't feel very, like, charitable.

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Xhafer: It did not.

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No, it felt downright talking

down to people of, of faith and,

289

Laura: Felt like, look

at these stupid rubes.

290

Xhafer: right.

291

Exactly.

292

Like, well, once, once they got into

space and found out heaven, wasn't

293

just a period that we pierced through.

294

It was only a matter of time

for people to stop believing.

295

It's just like, no one

actually thought that right.

296

Like, I'm sure there are people.

297

I'm sure they're

298

Laura: Well, yes.

299

Xhafer: especially

historically speaking, pre.

300

Education times.

301

I'm sure there were people that

believed heaven was physically up

302

and hell was physically down and

that if you were to build a tall

303

enough of a staircase, you could you

could climb the stairway to heaven

304

Laura: I was gonna make

that joke, god damn you.

305

Xhafer: lick.

306

Oh, it's so good.

307

You know, or if you were to dig deep

enough, hypothetically, you'd reach hell.

308

Like, I'm sure there are people that,

that truly believe that with all their

309

heart, but I don't think they were

someone who was even remotely educated

310

in a way that we would consider to

be acceptable by modern standards.

311

Um, and that's, and I'm not trying

to fault anyone there either.

312

Like, there's plenty of reasons

to not have an education.

313

I'm speaking with a ton of privilege.

314

I recognize that.

315

Laura: Mm hmm.

316

Mm hmm.

317

But

318

Xhafer: but generally speaking.

319

Laura: it did have a tone about

it that felt a little like, okay.

320

Xhafer: Yeah, it was, I thought

it was a bit much and, and I've

321

gotten no skin in that game.

322

Laura: Yeah.

323

Xhafer: Lockley and the father

share a great line about going

324

to church via guilt or via faith.

325

And they're not really

being a distinction.

326

I have had this conversation with

friends who are more religious people.

327

Uh, it's It's like, I don't know

why I'm going to church anymore.

328

And I feel like, dogma Kevin Smith movie.

329

Also.

330

Had a similar line, um, a little bit.

331

I can see this sentiment and I

dunno, like appreciate it, I guess.

332

Um, I could, I can understand

that moral quandary.

333

do you have, I mean, of the

two of us, you're significantly

334

more religious than I am.

335

Laura: Yeah.

336

I don't know about like how far that goes.

337

Like there's a spectrum of significance.

338

Right.

339

But,

340

Xhafer: Well, I it's, I

I'm very on one side, so I

341

Laura: yeah.

342

Okay.

343

Sure.

344

Sure.

345

I don't know.

346

I, I didn't grow up religious at all.

347

So really like my mom

is culturally Catholic.

348

My dad was culturally Baptist, but

neither of them were like super into it.

349

And My like going to church came about

in my college years and then has waxed

350

and waned and it's currently in a wane.

351

Like, cause everything is hard guys.

352

Xhafer: Yeah.

353

Well, it's a, it's a time commitment

and I mean, also, you know, faith,

354

faith waxes and wanes belief and things

just generally everything is that way.

355

All every friendship of significance of

real relationship of significance I've

356

had in my life has had ups and downs.

357

There's no reason for your relationship

with a religious or spiritual side

358

of yourself to be any different.

359

Yeah.

360

That makes sense to me.

361

Laura: And part of like my church

attendance was just like having a

362

community that I felt really cool about

and I still respect that community.

363

Um, it's just really

hard for me to maintain.

364

A community right now, like

be in and a part of it.

365

And I feel terrible about that.

366

I feel like in a way you guys that

I'm podcasting with are by the

367

most community I have right now.

368

And I'm really grateful for that.

369

But you know,

370

I just can't get on board with the whole.

371

Organizational church thing, the, the big

thing, like, you know, this father is,

372

is I don't know if, does it, they do say

he's Catholic cause they refer he's going

373

to go talk to the Holy Father, I think.

374

Xhafer: Yeah, they, they make an

oblique reference to the Pope, assuming

375

that that hasn't changed too much

in another couple hundred years.

376

Laura: No one actually calls, says

the word Catholic, but he's Catholic.

377

Xhafer: I mean, there could be

a consolidation of faiths as

378

Laura: sure.

379

Xhafer: I mean, that's something that,

you know, Empirically, as there are

380

less people of certain denominations,

it would make sense to kind of all fold

381

in for the strength of the organization.

382

Um, I get that.

383

Laura: Yeah.

384

Yeah.

385

The, the, the big organizations I have a

lot less trust with, like, I don't know

386

that I could ever fall on board that

hard with a big organization that's, it's

387

not really a community anymore then, you

388

Xhafer: Mm hmm.

389

Laura: It's a business.

390

It's a, it's an institution.

391

Uh, Just not my style.

392

Xhafer: Fair enough.

393

Laura: I don't know if that answered

the question you originally asked.

394

Xhafer: Not really, but uh, the

question wasn't about an answer.

395

It was about having a conversation with

you about your faith and in which case,

396

mission accomplished, question answered.

397

Laura: All right.

398

Good.

399

Good.

400

I don't feel like I can

answer any questions anymore.

401

Like you get into a PhD program and you're

like, Oh, there are no answers anywhere.

402

Whoops.

403

I didn't want to know that.

404

Xhafer: Yeah.

405

Uh, Just like our father

might not want to know.

406

What he was actually called there for

uh, Lockley reports, strange smells

407

sounds, and then asks him if he is

authorized to perform an exorcism.

408

And why the fuck do you not get that on

the like letter of travel beforehand?

409

Like, we need to send a priest to Babylon

five to investigate something weird.

410

And we need to send a priest to

Babylon five to perform an exorcism

411

are two different scales of things.

412

You can't be surprising

someone with an exorcism.

413

Exorcism.

414

Laura: I I'm on the one hand, like.

415

It feels like you should

lead with that, right?

416

But on the other hand, it doesn't

because then you don't get

417

anybody because you led with that.

418

Xhafer: Mm hmm.

419

Hold on.

420

Laura: Hot Catholic

421

tips coming in, apparently.

422

Xhafer: Hot Catholic tips.

423

The Pope needs to approve.

424

Well, the Vatican does, hypothetically,

the Pope brought to you by Beth.

425

Laura: It's his organization.

426

That cheeky smile she gave, perfect.

427

Yeah, hot news coming in.

428

Yeah, I mean, I can see why you don't lead

with that, too, if it's not a big thing.

429

You don't get anybody,

they're like, oh, no thanks.

430

Xhafer: Yep.

431

We get introduced here to Nate Burke

who very quickly plays his hand uh, we,

432

there's mentioned of him being alone,

magically covered in blood with no

433

cuts and there was no DNA in the blood,

434

Laura: Mm, yeah, spooky.

435

Xhafer: He's also got the ability

to mystically change the smell

436

of the room from I'm guessing

it's supposed to be brimstone.

437

They don't really say, but

he makes it smell like roses.

438

It's 20 degrees colder.

439

Also, Lockly says it's 74,

which means that they're using

440

fucking Fahrenheit on Babylon 5.

441

I don't know if we caught that.

442

That at any point during the

series, if I've already made this

443

ridiculous claim, why the fuck are

they using Fahrenheit in space?

444

Laura: Man, I love my

Fahrenheit scale, though.

445

I don't care about the rest of

the Imperial measurements, but

446

Fahrenheit makes sense, god dang it.

447

30?

448

30 is not a lot of hots.

449

Xhafer: make sense.

450

Zero and a hundred for freezing

and boiling makes sense.

451

Fahrenheit is a fucking wild card.

452

Fahrenheit's insane.

453

Laura: no, no, no, no.

454

So I understand the 0 and 100 for boiling.

455

I get that.

456

But 100 hots outside is a lot of hots.

457

30 hots outside is not a lot of hots.

458

Xhafer: if it got to a hundred

outside, there'd be severe problems.

459

Laura: be unsustainable hots.

460

Yeah.

461

Xhafer: Yeah.

462

Unsustainable

463

Laura: hots.

464

Even.

465

Xhafer: Um.

466

Asmodeus reveals his name here and says

that uh, they want to be exercised.

467

Out in space, God had banished demons

to space waiting for humanity to

468

reach them to make them not forget

about faith and God and stuff

469

Laura: Okay, so most of the

talking from Berk Demon Asmodeus.

470

At one point I looked at my watch and

I was like, this has gone on too long.

471

Xhafer: it had it did

472

Laura: I was like,

473

Xhafer: could bloviate normally I'd

say dude could pontificate but that's

474

normally a normally a good word very bad

word in this very particular instance.

475

Laura: I like Bloviate.

476

That's, that's good.

477

Xhafer: Yeah.

478

Laura: And especially when you, you

mentioned at the top of the show that

479

these were originally planned to be

shorter and then blown up a little bit.

480

I was like, Oh, that's why I feel like

it's gone on too long because it has.

481

Yeah.

482

Xhafer: the Sheridan episode after this

could have benefited from like another

483

five minutes, you could have done some

interesting stuff in those five minutes.

484

You could have had some of Sheridan,

the Prince interacting on the ship

485

where he's all like, maybe he's Hitler.

486

Maybe he isn't.

487

And done some fun things with that

because fun things with, we'll get to it.

488

Anyways.

489

At the elections next week.

490

Anyways,

491

Laura: Maybe he's Hitler, maybe he isn't.

492

Xhafer: maybe he's healing.

493

Maybe he isn't.

494

Father Cassidy is not convinced.

495

So Asmodeus like surrounds

the station in a ring of fire.

496

Laura: Yeah.

497

Good effect.

498

I liked it.

499

Xhafer: his cell just transformed into a

long hell way, a long hallway of hellfire,

500

Laura: A hell way, if you will.

501

Yeah.

502

Xhafer: but it's an illusion.

503

The hell way is actually what

I call the 405 in Los Angeles.

504

We get a, a posit though.

505

Is there a lie in what

Asmodeus is telling them?

506

What is the lie?

507

And most importantly, why the lie?

508

Why though?

509

It's if it's a demon, then why the

lie seems pretty straightforward.

510

But,

511

Laura: I don't think you

need a why, actually.

512

Xhafer: yeah.

513

As Modius and Cassidy then discuss the

choice between sacrificing the soul of

514

the possessed to just, like, let this

dude be a demon forever in order to scare

515

people into a religious further, or not

Or exercising him, like, immediately,

516

and giving the demon what it wants?

517

Laura: Yeah.

518

Weird choices.

519

Weird choices, all of them.

520

Xhafer: Weird choices that line up with my

big problem with this episode as a whole.

521

Laura: I can't wait.

522

Yeah.

523

Xhafer: We're, we're I don't have a

lot of notes on either of these because

524

there's so much fucking just wasted

time that it's like, short of recapping

525

every line of dialogue, there's not

a whole lot to talk about with this

526

episode in terms of the plot and actions.

527

Laura: Yeah.

528

Lay out the rest of

that plot for us though.

529

And then we can critique it.

530

Xhafer: Lockley wakes up in the middle

of the night, my notes say it's the hour

531

of the wolf uh, well, Lockley starts

to piece it together digging up Burke's

532

trip, finds the logs and finds that the

demon was like on the trip the whole time.

533

Laura: Mm hmm.

534

Yeah.

535

The, the crew on the freighter or

liner that he was on were complaining

536

about smells and temperatures.

537

Yeah.

538

Xhafer: So they sedate

Burke and go to talk to him.

539

And Lockley uses this to basically solve.

540

All of theology demons are real.

541

Demons are bound to earth, not hell.

542

That's where they were

cast down to hell is earth.

543

Laura: Yeah.

544

Maybe earth is hell.

545

Yeah.

546

Yeah.

547

Xhafer: The reckoning described at, as

the end of the world in the Bible is

548

the death of the sun and exercising the

demon on Babylon five will allow the

549

demon to escape the eventual flame out

of the sun and the destruction of earth.

550

Leading to an eternity in nothingness.

551

So they're sending the demon

back to earth to exercise it.

552

Laura: Yeah.

553

Xhafer: That's my notes.

554

That's where this ends

555

Laura: I got like fundamental problems

with The whole demon, and I think

556

you do too, in that, like, if we even

accept the premise that demons are

557

real and we're sending him back to

558

Xhafer: Well, demons are canonically

real in Babylon five now,

559

Laura: right, but if, if we accept the

premise of this, why have they not tried

560

in the like 200 years we've been in space?

561

Before this to leave.

562

Xhafer: Good question.

563

Laura: But really thought more

564

Xhafer: And why is it a suddenly such

a big problem now that luckily has

565

to go and tell all of her commander

and captain friends to watch out

566

for demons trying to escape earth?

567

Laura: yeah.

568

Um, and this show has been more of the

like, thoughtful type about these things.

569

And I would have expected more

of a, like, Oh, this is a type

570

of alien we've never encountered.

571

Xhafer: Can I can I improve

this in five seconds for you?

572

Laura: Sure.

573

Go ahead.

574

Xhafer: The dude is a, like, T4,

T5, super low level telepath who

575

escaped from a Psi Core facility.

576

Laura: Okay.

577

Xhafer: That's the only change.

578

Laura: Oh yeah.

579

Okay.

580

I see what you're stepping in.

581

Yeah.

582

Xhafer: Is he a demon?

583

Is this some leftover shit

Bester was fucking with?

584

Like, is he making you see

things because he's got some

585

weird variant telepath powers?

586

Or is this actually happening?

587

And leaving it very, very ambiguous.

588

Laura: Yeah.

589

Xhafer: like Babylon 5.

590

This felt like an episode

of The Outer Limits.

591

Which I enjoy.

592

It's a Twilight Zone episode.

593

It has a place in science

fiction for sure, just not in an

594

established universe like this.

595

There's a reason why those episodes

are so one and done is because they

596

want to present ideas that represent

a fundamental change to how we

597

view and experience the universe.

598

Right, like reality is different

than what you thought it was.

599

This is what it's actually going on and

you can do that in a show like once,

600

Laura: Yeah.

601

Xhafer: right?

602

You cannot keep doing it in a same

established universe because at that

603

point the universe is just a fun bag

of mysteries, which is cool esque

604

like I feel like that's something

Andreas would have gone on about

605

in a on a good little monologue

is the word I'm looking for here.

606

But that's not Babylon five per se,

you know, we we've had our, this is

607

what the universe is actually like,

and that's the Vorlans and the shadows

608

fucking with all of the races beforehand,

609

Laura: Mm hmm.

610

And to that extent, I wanted this

to be like a type of alien who

611

had been related to the shadows or

612

Xhafer: A hundred percent

makes so much sense.

613

Laura: Mm hmm.

614

Xhafer: Yep.

615

He, he is a shadow sleeper agent that

had contact with a ship or something,

616

or some fucking bug crawled down

his fucking throat and messed with

617

his brain and gave him pyrokinesis,

618

Laura: Yeah.

619

Yeah.

620

Xhafer: like something, anything

besides demons are canonically real,

621

Laura: Yeah.

622

It's just rough, especially

to throw that into you.

623

a one off several years

after your series ended.

624

Xhafer: right?

625

It's so fucking weird.

626

Okay.

627

So.

628

We rate episodes of Babylon 5,

if you only listen to our crusade

629

coverage, we rate episodes of Babylon

5 on a scale of Babylon's 1 to 5.

630

We haven't done this in a little while.

631

I'm going to suggest we rate

both of the separate episodes of

632

Lost Tales as their own entities.

633

On a scale of 5, Laura, how do you

feel about this little mini episode?

634

Laura: I was so bored.

635

This one, I loved seeing Lockley and

I do even feel like she made like a

636

funny reference to her eating habits on

Babylon 5, which gave me a great chuckle.

637

But damn, I was just so

bored by this guy and

638

Xhafer: Yeah.

639

Laura: I, I have to give it like a one.

640

Xhafer: I will give it a 1 5, and the 5

is the episode, and the 1 is Lockley's

641

like, whatever, I'll fuck up a demon

642

Laura: Yeah.

643

Xhafer: Like Lockley figures out demons

are real and immediately goes and talks

644

it down to its fucking face and says,

you're not gonna win, I'm gonna win.

645

That's a point for me.

646

Laura: Yeah.

647

Can you imagine if the events that

occurred between season four and

648

season five hadn't and we still

had Ivanova, her dealing with

649

this demon, that'd be fun too.

650

Xhafer: That's interesting to be because

Ivanova is a very interesting character.

651

Religiously.

652

Laura: huh.

653

Huh.

654

Xhafer: Um, Lockley is kind of

like she, I mean, all we hear

655

about it is in this episode.

656

It's not an important

part of her character.

657

Uh, Ivanova's struggles with her faith

are a important part of her character arc.

658

So I would actually be much more

interested in her dealing with this.

659

Her and Theo.

660

I don't know if it makes it better.

661

I don't know if you can make it better.

662

You can make it shorter,

which is making it better.

663

And I feel like adding Ivanova and Theo

to this and definitely make it shorter.

664

Yeah.

665

Laura: Yeah.

666

I did not remember this at all.

667

I was like, what on earth is happening?

668

And this guy is talking too long.

669

That's the big impressions

I had out of this one.

670

Xhafer: All right.

671

Well, that was over here.

672

It's time to go over there and

talk about our next little.

673

Mini episode we cut over to Mimbar

Sheridan is getting a ride to

674

Babylon five on the new Valen class

cruiser, by the way, can we talk

675

Laura: great.

676

Xhafer: it looks so good.

677

You remember Legend of the Rangers?

678

That was the new Vaylin class

cruiser that got, like, messed up.

679

The ship that they didn't get?

680

It had the same name.

681

Laura: The, the ugly thing.

682

Xhafer: yeah.

683

Yeah, that ugliest sin box

we saw off in the distance?

684

That was, unless I'm

mistaken, I believe it was

685

Laura: no, I think you're right.

686

Xhafer: cruiser.

687

Laura: I think I remember that.

688

Hmm.

689

What?

690

Xhafer: to the well.

691

Uh, The ship was so poorly

designed, they completely redid it.

692

Yeah.

693

Laura: Yeah.

694

They were like, oh wait,

all of this is bad.

695

Let's do a different one.

696

Xhafer: It is kind of like

a space shark kind of thing.

697

Laura: Yes.

698

I had like whale shark in my head.

699

Like, which is nice because the

Minbari are such like angelfish

700

ships, the, the white stars.

701

So

702

Xhafer: Yeah, I dig it.

703

Laura: Mm hmm.

704

Same.

705

Xhafer: where the fuck is Delaine?

706

Like, I, I know that you

just don't get Mira, right?

707

Laura: Uh Huh.

708

Xhafer: Like, I, under, I, I, I

know why Delaine is not in this,

709

but like, how the fuck do you do

this story without her, at the very

710

least off camera, saying something

like goodbye to him as he leaves.

711

Laura: Yeah,

712

Xhafer: Right?

713

Just give me this much Delen.

714

I don't need a lot.

715

I can, I can hand wave everything.

716

Get Mira on the phone.

717

Get her to say her one line.

718

Pay her 5, 000 and call it good.

719

can't be that hard.

720

So anyways, Sheridan's on his trip.

721

He's in a conference room that he

jokes about having to add chairs to.

722

Laura: okay.

723

these chairs, I was just like, man, this

is the set, I think, that got me thinking.

724

There was no budget, and this was

so, like, not, I don't want to say

725

lazy, but these chairs, I was like,

you, you just, like, pulled these out

726

of the, the, WB offices, didn't you?

727

Like

728

Xhafer: all of the Mimbari internal

ship sets are either super elaborate

729

or an excuse to not spend any money.

730

There's no middle ground.

731

Laura: Mm hmm.

732

Yep.

733

Doesn't he make a reference

to like, the grey council just

734

flies around with no chairs?

735

Standing forever?

736

Xhafer: They just stand for forever.

737

Laura: they're potato sacks, which you

don't have to spend money on either.

738

Xhafer: Mm hmm.

739

This reporter from ISN Chambers comes in.

740

There's our Quintessential

needlessly horny.

741

The camera is on my boobs because

the producer said it was a good idea.

742

Laura: Yeah That made me tired.

743

Xhafer: Yeah,

744

it's real.

745

Her breasts heaving energy.

746

Laura: Uh Huh.

747

At least this person is of age.

748

But, yeah.

749

Exhausting.

750

.

Xhafer: Sheridan comments on the loss of who Londo was.

751

He talks about how Londo used to

be this, like this boisterous laugh

752

incarnate and how that person is dead.

753

Londo is still alive, but the

person that Londo was is dead.

754

Laura: Yeah.

755

We know why.

756

We read the books.

757

Xhafer: There's talk of

car back beyond the rim.

758

This is after a Legend of the Rangers.

759

Laura: He, they, they mentioned that

he's gone, gone again, beyond the rim.

760

Xhafer: yes.

761

So he's, he's come back.

762

He's gone again.

763

That's because Andreas

had passed away at this

764

Laura: And we make a reference to Dr.

765

Franklin, went with him.

766

Xhafer: Yes Richard bigs.

767

I talked about this there, but

Richard bigs passed away during

768

pre production of this movie.

769

Laura: Oh,

770

wow.

771

Xhafer: going to be in the movie.

772

Laura: Oh,

773

that makes me really sad now.

774

Was,

775

Xhafer: yeah, this would have been

776

Laura: he going to be in?

777

Xhafer: Um, I assumed

the part three Garibaldi.

778

Laura: third option?

779

Okay.

780

Yeah.

781

Xhafer: that they ended up scrapping.

782

Laura: I would have preferred

him in the first one even.

783

Like, doctor, we need you to look at this.

784

Xhafer: That also would

have been interesting to

785

Laura: Yeah.

786

Anyway.

787

Xhafer: Um,

788

Laura: so sad.

789

R.

790

I.

791

P.

792

Xhafer: They jumped to quantum space,

which seems solely to exist to get

793

shared and out of an interview.

794

Never mentioned again.

795

Laura: And to torture

this poor reporter lady.

796

Xhafer: we've got some, we figured

out how to use the glossy and

797

blur effect in Photoshop, and

we're just going to turn it up

798

to, yeah, slap it all over.

799

Exactly.

800

Well said.

801

After this Galen visits Sheridan in a

dream, showing him New York and ruins.

802

He says the city that never weeps.

803

Man, that's some post 9 11 commentary.

804

Laura: Oh yeah, this would

have been then, wouldn't it?

805

Xhafer: Yeah.

806

I Look, sometimes Jabez does

something very clever, and it hits

807

real fuckin hard, it makes you think.

808

And sometimes, he just fuckin whiffs.

809

And for me, this line was

just a huge fucking whiff.

810

Like, I mean, no one bats a thousand,

like And he's written some really,

811

really thoughtful, good shit in his life.

812

The City That Never Weeps.

813

Five years after 9 11 or whatever?

814

Even, even, even now?

815

No.

816

Like, can't do it, dude.

817

Like, I'm not even from there.

818

Like, it just seems, it seems

needlessly rude, disrespectful,

819

and talking down to people.

820

Like other parts of the world.

821

Laura: Like other parts

of this one, yeah, yeah.

822

And the Galen character often does seem

a little pompous and dark downy, so.

823

Xhafer: Yeah.

824

Laura: Yeah, its delivery is

825

not

826

Xhafer: when you're about to

show an attack on New York.

827

Like you're literally about to

show New York getting blown up.

828

Laura: Uh Huh.

829

Xhafer: The city that never weeps.

830

Fuck you.

831

Laura: Just fuck off

with that a little bit.

832

Xhafer: Yeah.

833

So he shows Sheridan the attack.

834

he, they acknowledged their previous

standing friendship from call to arms.

835

Laura: Yeah, which is easy to

forget, like, I almost did.

836

Xhafer: Uh, I had to be all

like, wait, when did they meet?

837

Oh, that's right.

838

Call to arms.

839

And then I was reading the wiki Galen was

with Sheridan on Zaha Doom in season four.

840

Yeah.

841

Yeah, Galen interacts with fucking

uh, Lorian and stuff, whole deal.

842

It's all in the book.

843

We didn't read the passing

of the techno mages.

844

I think.

845

Laura: okay, because I was like,

that definitely was never on

846

Xhafer: No, it was never on screen.

847

It's in one of the books.

848

I assume it's in because the passing of

the techno mages is like all about Galen.

849

They're Galen books.

850

So I assume it's in there,

but man, you know, that's a

851

thing.

852

Laura: Galen feels kind of like

a character that we're just going

853

to retcon him in everywhere.

854

Because he is magical and mystical,

and we came up with this good idea,

855

like, right there at the end to

have him as a thing, and now we're

856

just gonna put him everywhere.

857

Xhafer: I just really, it's like, it

feels like everything after Season five

858

is just about fucking techno majors.

859

All of the books after season

five, the only ones that

860

aren't are the Cycore books.

861

Everything else has

techno majors all over.

862

The fucking Centura Trilogy is a like

solid, like it's 600 pages, I would say

863

techno majors around at least 150 pages.

864

Of this 600.

865

Laura: Yeah, yeah.

866

Xhafer: It's like.

867

It was a cool idea.

868

You had a fun thing in like a

episode of Babylon five, we dug it.

869

Techno mages are fun.

870

I get it.

871

Fucking.

872

I don't want all this fucking techno mage

bullshit, especially after a crusade.

873

And we find out they're just

the fucking one percenters.

874

Laura: Yeah.

875

Xhafer: just humans who had enough money

and technology to just live for forever

876

and do whatever the fuck they wanted.

877

Fuck those guys.

878

Fuck those baseless motherfuckers.

879

I'm earning our explicit rating today.

880

Laura: I mean, why have it

if you're not gonna use it?

881

So.

882

Xhafer: That I think that's

actually the fun of techno mages.

883

I think they're a set

884

Laura: I meant the explicit rating,

885

Xhafer: Oh Oh yeah.

886

Fair.

887

Right.

888

Got to, got to fucking earn

it every once in a while.

889

You can tell I've worked

so much this week.

890

I'm so

891

Laura: yeah, I think a part of it is like,

maybe JMS felt a profound disappointment

892

about not getting to explore the

Technomage stuff farther in Crusade.

893

And so we just kept shoehorning it,

retconning it into Babylon 5 everywhere.

894

Xhafer: Yeah.

895

It's a bit much all around and I just have

my, my tolerance for it is so low at this

896

point between the books, between crusade.

897

Yeah.

898

And now this, I'm so glad there's

no fucking techno majors in

899

Battlestar Galactica spoilers.

900

Laura: Galen's costume did look great.

901

I liked his costume.

902

Actually, the costumes in this

one were both, were all great.

903

Especially when we get

our Centauri Prince.

904

So did

905

Xhafer: his outfit's so cool.

906

Laura: did you catch his lineage?

907

Xhafer: Yeah, this is cart's son.

908

Laura: I did not realize

Cartagena had children.

909

Xhafer: It's never brought up anywhere

910

Laura: Yeah.

911

Yeah.

912

Xhafer: Even in this Suntory books.

913

This, this character does not exist.

914

This, this was made after those books.

915

Laura: Yeah, which feels weird.

916

Xhafer: So Ari here, he's

gonna attack Earth in 30 years.

917

He becomes emperor in 20 years.

918

Now we did our math at

the start of this episode.

919

Veer becomes emperor in seven

years, which means Veer is either

920

ousted or killed after ruling the

Centauri Republic for 13 years.

921

Laura: Yeah.

922

Okay.

923

I, could we believe that

maybe he stepped down?

924

That seems like a thing Veer could do.

925

Xhafer: That seems like a thing

Veer would do a hundred percent.

926

Um, but

927

Laura: Probably not if this

guy succeeds him though.

928

Like in, in the future iteration

that Galen is saying where

929

he's a warmongering, you know,

930

Xhafer: also Vintari's exact story and

plot are that of Durla in the books.

931

He builds a super big fleet

in secret and then attacks all

932

these places at the same time.

933

Laura: Hmm.

934

Xhafer: It's the exact

same thing from the books.

935

Laura: It's the Centauri

standard playbook.

936

Yeah.

937

They're working from.

938

Xhafer: Yeah, it didn't work, so they're

gonna try it again 23 years later.

939

Veer decommissions all the warships and

then they just start building them all

940

over again the second he steps down.

941

Laura: Yeah, in secret.

942

Xhafer: So yeah, Ventari comes aboard.

943

I read that he's channeling

big Cartagena energy.

944

I think this actor, this kid, kills it.

945

Laura: Mm hmm.

946

Yeah, no, I really liked him.

947

Xhafer: yeah, there's just

enough not behind the eyes.

948

Which is so difficult to do

to make him truly terrifying.

949

Laura: Mm

950

Xhafer: I believe that this

kid is a genocidal maniac.

951

A hundred percent.

952

Laura: He's, he's got something

dark that could grow inside him.

953

Like he's, he's got a lot of resentments.

954

He doesn't have a place to put them.

955

He's he's feeling

956

very

957

powerless.

958

Xhafer: He just watched fight

club on repeat for 72 hours.

959

Laura: Yeah.

960

Yeah.

961

This feels like that guy, doesn't it?

962

Xhafer: Yeah.

963

Having just, I, I think I

mentioned this in this court.

964

I finished that podcast earlier today.

965

Laura: Yeah.

966

I think you've talked about it on POD

before, but what was the name again?

967

Xhafer: it's, I don't want to

talk about fight club anymore

968

Laura: Yeah,

969

Xhafer: and it is fantastic.

970

Laura: A journey, I'm sure.

971

Xhafer: Yeah, it's really worth your time.

972

Like, I would say that if you don't like

fight club, it's a good podcast for you.

973

If you're like, I don't want to listen to

someone talk about fight club that long.

974

Cause that fuck that movie

975

Laura: Yeah.

976

This is the podcast for you.

977

Yeah.

978

Xhafer: This isn't someone who

loves fight club as a grown adult

979

watching it because they think

it's the best movie of all time.

980

That is not the ride

you're signing up for.

981

Laura: Yeah.

982

No, I, I definitely thought that

they picked a great actor for this.

983

I even Googled him just before this, just

to see like, did he go on and do anything?

984

Nope.

985

Xhafer: That's a bummer.

986

Laura: Yeah, yeah, he must have just

like pulled back completely, but he

987

seemed to like do a few maybe in the

90s sort of teen heartthrobby kind

988

of things and then was like, nah.

989

Well, good for you, Keegan.

990

Xhafer: Luckily passes the idea of

Sheridan writing in on a star fury.

991

Like it's a good idea and

not a giant security risk.

992

Laura: Especially without an EV suit.

993

Xhafer: without an Evie suit.

994

Uh, He hasn't flown in one in a decade,

995

they talk about him like riding in

on the ship that he famously was

996

like riding around in the Shadow

Wars, a Starfury and not a white star

997

like him coming in on a white star.

998

That makes fucking sense.

999

Laura: For sure.

00:45:05,065 --> 00:45:06,805

Right.

00:45:06,865 --> 00:45:08,335

Xhafer: get the hell out of our galaxy.

00:45:08,935 --> 00:45:10,525

It all happened on that bridge, right?

00:45:11,065 --> 00:45:11,915

All the big moments.

00:45:11,915 --> 00:45:14,355

He fucking nuked Zaha

Doom with a white star.

00:45:14,555 --> 00:45:17,475

Like, I don't think we saw him

in a Starfury outside of an

00:45:17,475 --> 00:45:19,815

excuse to keep his pilot bonus.

00:45:22,102 --> 00:45:23,442

This makes no sense to me.

00:45:24,732 --> 00:45:28,802

Except you've got a really good Starfury

CGI model and you want to show it off

00:45:28,832 --> 00:45:32,782

and it's convenient for the plot to have

him and the prince out alone in space.

00:45:34,777 --> 00:45:38,117

Um, we get a, a nod to

Richard Bigg's passing here.

00:45:39,157 --> 00:45:43,947

There's a really poignant moment with

Bruce where he just like kind of stares

00:45:43,947 --> 00:45:46,457

a little bit off camera and is all

like, we're going to really miss him.

00:45:47,227 --> 00:45:52,057

And it just sits there for a moment

because that was super fucking real.

00:45:53,352 --> 00:45:55,392

And I'm glad that they

were able to do that.

00:45:55,782 --> 00:45:57,792

Cause I'm sure that's, that's

a moment, not just for the

00:45:57,802 --> 00:45:59,472

character, but also for the actor.

00:45:59,832 --> 00:45:59,992

Laura: Yes.

00:46:01,632 --> 00:46:02,342

Very nice.

00:46:02,882 --> 00:46:05,672

Xhafer: Galen explains his pot

plot here put Vinatari in the

00:46:05,672 --> 00:46:07,312

star fury and then blow it up.

00:46:07,862 --> 00:46:12,992

It's really just, you know,

it's a big plot to kill Vintari.

00:46:13,531 --> 00:46:19,171

Sheridan sees the war between earth

and the Centauri in his dreams, when

00:46:19,171 --> 00:46:23,788

they arrive at Babylon five Sheridan

gets luckily to deliver a second

00:46:23,788 --> 00:46:26,288

starfury and tells Intari the good news.

00:46:26,288 --> 00:46:28,248

They take them out Ventari.

00:46:28,648 --> 00:46:29,658

Talks of his dreams.

00:46:29,658 --> 00:46:33,098

He just really wants to make this as

difficult for Sheridan as possible.

00:46:33,648 --> 00:46:35,568

And just be all like, is he Hitler?

00:46:35,598 --> 00:46:36,918

I don't know the elections in a week.

00:46:36,918 --> 00:46:37,598

We'll find out.

00:46:38,328 --> 00:46:38,758

Uh,

00:46:39,631 --> 00:46:43,731

Laura: I just closed on a house yesterday

and I'm going to propose to my girlfriend.

00:46:44,476 --> 00:46:44,686

Xhafer: no

00:46:48,697 --> 00:46:51,952

Sheridan recalls his conversations

with Ventari and Galen.

00:46:52,612 --> 00:46:57,542

Kills his thrusters, prevents the power

surge, spares Minotauri, and invites

00:46:57,542 --> 00:46:59,882

him to come live on Mimbar with him.

00:46:59,912 --> 00:47:05,712

And he's going to mentor the Prince so

that he can learn kindness and peace.

00:47:06,202 --> 00:47:09,742

Laura: Which is a bold move we

know it worked for Veer really

00:47:09,742 --> 00:47:15,062

well, but Veer was also very well

documented as not a normal Centauri.

00:47:15,512 --> 00:47:15,872

Xhafer: Yeah.

00:47:16,522 --> 00:47:17,222

Laura: Like all the other,

00:47:18,202 --> 00:47:22,762

all the other Centauri ambassadors that

have been to Mimbar, like, hated it.

00:47:23,142 --> 00:47:26,122

Xhafer: Yeah, there's no

alcohol on the entire planet.

00:47:26,555 --> 00:47:26,945

Laura: Right.

00:47:27,274 --> 00:47:29,644

Xhafer: Even Galen's like, bro, you sure?

00:47:29,824 --> 00:47:32,864

And then Sheridan's like, fucking

kill him in cold blood if I have to.

00:47:33,884 --> 00:47:38,154

It's just like, oh, okay, that's going

to be easier for you when he's lived

00:47:38,154 --> 00:47:42,584

with your family for years, instead of

now, where he's just a homicidal maniac.

00:47:43,294 --> 00:47:47,294

And also, you know, you're clearly so

good at setting your ego and the job that

00:47:47,294 --> 00:47:52,379

you do aside, that I believe that you'd

be willing to believe Cause you're going

00:47:52,379 --> 00:47:54,549

to die before this kid rises to power.

00:47:54,699 --> 00:47:56,739

You know, this, you know,

you've got 10 years left.

00:47:56,969 --> 00:47:58,529

You know, he becomes emperor in 20.

00:47:58,909 --> 00:48:00,259

This is, these are facts.

00:48:00,519 --> 00:48:04,519

Laura: there's, like 50 percent of that

time that you really have no control over.

00:48:04,739 --> 00:48:05,169

Xhafer: Mm hmm.

00:48:05,529 --> 00:48:07,919

You're going to ask to lend

a fucking kill this kid,

00:48:08,530 --> 00:48:11,960

Laura: No, maybe you're, maybe his

you know, I don't know how old the son

00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,200

is, 16, maybe your 16 year old son.

00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:18,340

Xhafer: who just got controlled

and by the fucking keeper.

00:48:18,720 --> 00:48:19,180

Laura: Yeah.

00:48:19,540 --> 00:48:19,900

Yeah.

00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:20,700

That'll go well.

00:48:21,260 --> 00:48:21,960

Xhafer: Mm hmm.

00:48:22,510 --> 00:48:22,970

Yep.

00:48:23,410 --> 00:48:26,190

Laura: I guess he's probably like

20 when Sheridan dies, whatever.

00:48:26,500 --> 00:48:26,850

Xhafer: Yeah.

00:48:27,777 --> 00:48:32,313

Luckily uh, greets them, takes the

Prince to the party and Galen and

00:48:32,313 --> 00:48:34,273

Sheridan put the bow on the plot.

00:48:34,863 --> 00:48:36,893

And that's the end of this mini episode.

00:48:38,446 --> 00:48:40,772

Laura: Do we want to hop to rating

it or do we want to critique it?

00:48:42,865 --> 00:48:45,155

I, I liked this one

better than the first one.

00:48:45,155 --> 00:48:47,314

Yeah.

00:48:47,330 --> 00:48:49,680

Xhafer: I think this one had a lot

more potential than the first one.

00:48:51,250 --> 00:48:53,500

This one asks a more interesting question.

00:48:55,210 --> 00:48:58,420

Um, because as Galen posits,

it's all like, Hey, if you had

00:48:58,420 --> 00:49:02,250

the chance to kill Hitler when

Hitler was a kid, would you do it?

00:49:02,780 --> 00:49:07,995

And that question kind Cannot be

posited without foreknowledge, right?

00:49:08,485 --> 00:49:12,725

Cause the answer is obviously no,

unless you know for certain what has

00:49:12,735 --> 00:49:15,255

already happened with Hitler, right?

00:49:15,845 --> 00:49:20,846

Like you can't ask that of someone

00:49:20,846 --> 00:49:22,676

of what's about to happen.

00:49:23,316 --> 00:49:23,726

Laura: Mm hmm.

00:49:24,261 --> 00:49:28,021

Xhafer: and so the necessity

of that foreknowledge makes

00:49:28,021 --> 00:49:29,261

it a foregone conclusion.

00:49:29,261 --> 00:49:30,431

That is reality for us.

00:49:30,431 --> 00:49:33,791

So it's easy to say, yeah, if I had a

time machine, yeah, give me the option.

00:49:33,791 --> 00:49:34,931

I'll go back and kill Hitler, whatever.

00:49:34,931 --> 00:49:36,481

I'll save all those people, right?

00:49:37,381 --> 00:49:38,981

It's still amorphous here,

00:49:39,726 --> 00:49:40,066

Laura: Yeah.

00:49:40,831 --> 00:49:44,261

Xhafer: And that's what makes that

question actually interesting.

00:49:44,871 --> 00:49:45,871

I think Sheridan.

00:49:46,416 --> 00:49:49,436

Comes upon, I don't even want

to say the right answer, but

00:49:49,436 --> 00:49:51,046

definitely the most Sheridan answer

00:49:51,376 --> 00:49:51,816

Laura: Mm hmm.

00:49:52,036 --> 00:49:52,386

Yeah.

00:49:52,466 --> 00:49:54,276

He would think he could do this.

00:49:54,957 --> 00:49:58,238

Fits fits with the old

patriarchal ego there.

00:49:58,598 --> 00:50:02,488

He's going to be a good dad

since he had a crazy dad.

00:50:03,838 --> 00:50:05,598

Nurture over nature, guys.

00:50:06,078 --> 00:50:06,528

Xhafer: for sure.

00:50:06,975 --> 00:50:12,505

there's also like a couple of like weird

unspoken things about it too, where it's

00:50:12,505 --> 00:50:18,015

just like, do you really like how much

damage How hurt is this kid already?

00:50:18,055 --> 00:50:19,985

How much damage has Vintari suffered

00:50:20,465 --> 00:50:24,395

living the life that he's had to

live being the son of a madman?

00:50:24,745 --> 00:50:28,135

Why is he in line for the

throne when there is no

00:50:28,135 --> 00:50:29,635

established line for the throne?

00:50:29,645 --> 00:50:33,590

Because that would imply that, like,

how did Lando and, like, Their entire

00:50:33,620 --> 00:50:36,910

like system here doesn't really make

sense to me because when you get

00:50:36,910 --> 00:50:40,170

rid of Cartagena, I imagine his son

would have fallen off the block.

00:50:40,590 --> 00:50:43,530

Also, why is his son never

mentioned anywhere else?

00:50:43,530 --> 00:50:48,620

Because you would think if he

was in line as a heir, that that

00:50:48,620 --> 00:50:49,590

would have been a whole thing.

00:50:50,020 --> 00:50:50,420

Laura: Yeah.

00:50:50,980 --> 00:50:51,640

Xhafer: There's also a

00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:52,740

Laura: It should have come up.

00:50:53,005 --> 00:50:57,175

Xhafer: That Cartagena is the

nephew of Turin, the emperor

00:50:57,175 --> 00:50:59,195

that dies early in Babylon five.

00:50:59,485 --> 00:51:01,355

Did we know that beforehand?

00:51:02,081 --> 00:51:02,211

Laura: I

00:51:02,211 --> 00:51:02,821

don't know if we

00:51:02,896 --> 00:51:04,306

Xhafer: that and I could have

00:51:04,411 --> 00:51:07,721

Laura: I do feel like

there was talk early on.

00:51:08,166 --> 00:51:11,756

When all that was happening of like,

Oh, we're going to prop up this

00:51:11,906 --> 00:51:16,156

crazy nephew or something for, for

now, while we run the government.

00:51:17,076 --> 00:51:20,706

And then Cartagena turned out to

actually be like a really bad man.

00:51:21,676 --> 00:51:22,696

I think so.

00:51:22,696 --> 00:51:24,516

I think I do remember

something about that.

00:51:24,516 --> 00:51:27,086

Yeah.

00:51:27,316 --> 00:51:31,486

Xhafer: my biggest problem with the

lost tales in general, in which it

00:51:31,486 --> 00:51:36,916

is clearly written by someone who

remembers 75 percent of their universe.

00:51:37,941 --> 00:51:46,486

And it's just scrambling and that hurts

uh, that it's, it sucks because I know

00:51:46,486 --> 00:51:50,876

that, like, even with like wrote home,

like, clearly, there is still good

00:51:50,876 --> 00:51:53,076

ideas for Babylon five in his mind.

00:51:53,636 --> 00:51:55,856

There's still a purpose to this universe.

00:51:56,476 --> 00:51:58,136

Um, but like this.

00:51:58,571 --> 00:52:04,171

Like, the Centauri books, like

Crusade, like Call to Arms, like

00:52:04,511 --> 00:52:07,495

Third Space, like Reversals.

00:52:08,165 --> 00:52:13,268

Everything outside of the main show

only subtracts and it doesn't add.

00:52:14,688 --> 00:52:15,178

Laura: Yeah.

00:52:15,218 --> 00:52:17,431

It, It doesn't feel as well thought out.

00:52:17,431 --> 00:52:22,111

We know he had like a great

grand plan for everything.

00:52:22,171 --> 00:52:25,521

And some of this stuff just feels

like tacked on like sticky notes.

00:52:25,531 --> 00:52:27,141

Well, what if this, what if that, like

00:52:27,146 --> 00:52:27,606

Xhafer: Mm hmm.

00:52:28,601 --> 00:52:34,455

Laura: instead of the way he meticulously

designed a lot of the show proper.

00:52:34,930 --> 00:52:35,350

Xhafer: Yeah.

00:52:35,710 --> 00:52:38,020

And it's so much of it just

feels exactly like that.

00:52:38,020 --> 00:52:38,550

Sticky notes.

00:52:38,550 --> 00:52:41,290

That's a great, that's a great comparison.

00:52:41,510 --> 00:52:44,720

Um, it's just, it's stuff that's

just tacked on that doesn't belong.

00:52:45,910 --> 00:52:52,180

It sucks because it does, it does, it

does actively subtract from my genuine

00:52:52,180 --> 00:52:54,130

feelings of how great the show is.

00:52:55,060 --> 00:52:59,730

Laura: I'm very distracted by, you know,

we know we have the canon of the Centauri

00:52:59,730 --> 00:53:02,520

dream about their futures and such.

00:53:02,860 --> 00:53:09,880

and we know he's dreamed about being

in the star fury, but how, how does

00:53:09,900 --> 00:53:12,760

Galen have this glimpse into the future?

00:53:12,900 --> 00:53:18,645

Like, is this a, replicatable technology,

00:53:19,755 --> 00:53:22,545

Xhafer: I think he's just

fucking with dreams like he do.

00:53:23,465 --> 00:53:24,015

Laura: Okay.

00:53:24,515 --> 00:53:26,775

Xhafer: And he's just leaning in.

00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:28,870

I don't know.

00:53:29,570 --> 00:53:33,400

Laura: Yeah, like he's like he's

able to observe people's dreams

00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:37,820

and he's seen Vintari's dreams So

he's got to do something about it.

00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:41,290

Hmm Okay,

00:53:43,468 --> 00:53:43,838

Xhafer: Yeah.

00:53:44,578 --> 00:53:48,628

Laura: I really want to like Galen

but he is almost a little too much You

00:53:48,628 --> 00:53:50,438

know, like when you create the wizard

00:53:50,918 --> 00:53:51,288

Xhafer: Yeah,

00:53:52,358 --> 00:53:55,903

Laura: they gotta have They

got to have some weak spots.

00:53:56,397 --> 00:53:58,327

They can't be the all powerful wizard.

00:53:58,695 --> 00:53:59,265

Xhafer: for sure.

00:53:59,857 --> 00:54:07,064

it's just he goes from someone who's like

a conjurer of cheap tricks to Gandalf

00:54:07,529 --> 00:54:07,909

Laura: Yeah.

00:54:08,822 --> 00:54:10,402

Xhafer: very, very quickly.

00:54:11,117 --> 00:54:15,097

And it's kind of jarring in a not fun way.

00:54:15,797 --> 00:54:16,467

I don't know.

00:54:16,467 --> 00:54:19,534

It's, I don't mean anything against

uh, Peter Woodward either, who

00:54:19,534 --> 00:54:20,514

does a great job with what he's

00:54:20,599 --> 00:54:21,589

Laura: No, no, no.

00:54:21,589 --> 00:54:21,879

Yeah.

00:54:21,879 --> 00:54:24,189

He's, he's a fantastic wizard for

00:54:24,354 --> 00:54:28,194

Xhafer: It's, it's just like,

if I were playing D and D and

00:54:28,194 --> 00:54:29,734

someone rolled Galen at my table.

00:54:30,609 --> 00:54:33,349

And I know Ben's gonna do this to

fuck with me for my next campaign,

00:54:33,349 --> 00:54:35,919

which is why I'm banning wizards

on my next campaign right now.

00:54:39,009 --> 00:54:40,169

I would just be livid.

00:54:42,029 --> 00:54:42,449

Laura: Yeah.

00:54:42,998 --> 00:54:44,418

Xhafer: It's like, you

can't know everything.

00:54:46,358 --> 00:54:52,763

part of what being A interesting character

in a story is, is being fallible and

00:54:53,178 --> 00:54:53,238

Laura: Yeah.

00:54:54,243 --> 00:54:59,243

Xhafer: Galen's not even, even when

Galen fucks up, he's instantly forgiven

00:55:00,384 --> 00:55:00,534

and

00:55:00,589 --> 00:55:01,819

Laura: as happened in Crusade.

00:55:02,799 --> 00:55:08,319

And he's motivated by a one dimensional

death of the female partner.

00:55:08,619 --> 00:55:16,049

And yeah, it's, you know, we all have

limited time and the creators doing the

00:55:16,049 --> 00:55:17,819

best they can with what they got, I guess.

00:55:18,971 --> 00:55:19,721

We didn't rate it.

00:55:19,751 --> 00:55:21,161

We didn't actually put a rating on it.

00:55:21,326 --> 00:55:22,486

Xhafer: No, we didn't.

00:55:22,576 --> 00:55:24,567

Uh, Two and a half.

00:55:25,302 --> 00:55:25,722

Laura: Mm-Hmm.

00:55:26,962 --> 00:55:27,412

Yeah.

00:55:27,497 --> 00:55:27,977

Xhafer: today.

00:55:28,057 --> 00:55:28,527

I don't know.

00:55:28,727 --> 00:55:29,057

It doesn't

00:55:29,057 --> 00:55:29,977

feel like a three.

00:55:30,507 --> 00:55:32,627

I feel like it could have

been a three, but it's not

00:55:32,862 --> 00:55:37,482

Laura: Yeah, I would, I'll join you

on the two and a half step, like,

00:55:37,817 --> 00:55:42,207

Xhafer: cut the useless reporter out of

here who only is in this to be objectified

00:55:42,602 --> 00:55:43,032

Laura: yeah,

00:55:43,527 --> 00:55:44,377

Xhafer: to give

00:55:44,377 --> 00:55:45,747

Sheridan a joke.

00:55:45,887 --> 00:55:46,247

Yeah.

00:55:46,902 --> 00:55:48,402

And humiliate 100 percent humiliated.

00:55:48,852 --> 00:55:49,652

Cut all that out.

00:55:50,032 --> 00:55:52,852

Just have this be Sheridan's

picking this kid up on the way

00:55:52,852 --> 00:55:54,322

to be five for the celebration.

00:55:54,322 --> 00:55:58,872

So that way you have the end the plots

at B5 like you wanted to and give

00:55:58,872 --> 00:56:03,352

us more interactions with Sheridan

and Ventari or start this farther

00:56:03,352 --> 00:56:07,222

back and show some shit with Ventari

being treated like a piece of shit.

00:56:07,582 --> 00:56:12,502

Like I don't know if the story works

as well if he's at all sympathetic.

00:56:13,737 --> 00:56:16,537

If the, if that changes the nature

of the question being asked.