One would think that an episode about grief would in-fact be a downer of an episode. But no no no. This is gone in true Skirts Up form. Deep, raw, emotional conversation In the most loving yet entertaining way. Its a gift. You're welcome.

Jo Beth Evans dive deep into the multifaceted world of grief and healing. Jo Beth, an esteemed grief specialist from NWA, shares her personal journey through tremendous loss, highlighting the transformative power of resilience and proactive recovery. With a heartfelt story about losing her husband to terminal brain cancer, Jo Beth opens up about the emotional turmoil and the steps she took to rebuild her life, emphasizing the importance of seeking help and taking actionable steps towards healing.

Jo Beth sheds light on the misconceptions surrounding the stages of grief and offers a more holistic approach to understanding and navigating personal loss, whether it be from death, divorce, or even the loss of a beloved pet. The conversation touches on essential aspects such as the need for basic self-care, the significance of community support, and the invaluable role of professional guidance. Listeners will find solace in the shared experiences and gain practical advice on how to avoid the pitfalls of unhealthy coping mechanisms.

By addressing societal expectations and the pervasive sense of guilt that often accompanies grief, this episode empowers listeners to break free from the victim mentality and embrace a mindset of growth and empowerment. Jo Beth’s unique six-month recovery program, which includes comprehensive grief education, one-on-one support through the Marco Polo app, and facilitated connections with other grievers, serves as a testament to her commitment to guiding others towards a brighter future.

Tune in to discover how embracing vulnerability, establishing a strong support system, and maintaining a forward-focused attitude can turn even the darkest times into periods of profound personal growth. Whether you're currently facing grief or seeking to support a loved one through it, this episode provides the tools and inspiration to move forward with purpose and strength.

** If you or someone you know is lost in the throws of grief, Check out Jo Beth's program and don't forget to mention that Skirts Up

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Hey, you.

You're tuned in to the Skirts up show with Samantha and Melissa.

Join our mission to normalize failure, but still uncover the positives at every twist and turn.

Skirts up, but keep your panties on. What's up, Skirts up squad?

It's Samantha and Melissa.

We're back for another episode on Mental Health Awareness Month. So today we share a conversation that we had with Jo Beth, who really, we have a serious yet humorous conversation with her about grieving.

And it's just really educational and, like, you don't feel like you're alone, which actually what everyone should know is that we have Jobeth as an affiliate now. So if you guys feel like you need help and guidance and grief and.

And you're ready to just tackle on how to, you know, handle your new life, because you're not going to be the same after grief. Whether it's grief because you lost a dog or grief because you lost a human, a leg, it's all the same. And she's there to really help you.

Grab you by the hand and get you through in a positive way and not letting you sit there.

That's right. She's very big on, like, not actually just sitting in it. We can take steps to climb out of the hole that we're in.

But when you say she's an affiliate, tell us more.

You guys can find a link to her business and what she does in our little description or on our website. And when you click on that, you fill out this form. And on the form, it gives an option of, how did you find her? Why are you booking with her?

And you just type in skirts up and she's going to take care of you? Amazingly, yes. With. With a little discount. So be sure to book through us.

That's right.

Melissa. It's fail time. What you got?

Okay, so I guess my fail right now is just like, all of the stuff that I'm going through. So you guys know that I'm filing for divorce. So there was like, life is going really fast. I went and talked to the lawyer.

I paid the, you know, retainer and all that stuff. And then she's like, yeah, we'll probably serve him this week. Well, he never got served. I never heard anything.

And I was just kind of, like, going on with my life. And suddenly I realized, you know what? It's been a minute. I think it's been a couple weeks.

So I called them up, and I was like, hey, I think I came in a couple weeks ago, just wanted to know where would the stat. What the status Was. And she's like, well, when did you come in? And it turned out it has been over a month.

And I was just like, I just didn't realize because, you know, when life is happening so fast. So she's like, oh, no, it's been almost a month. Let me get your attorney to call you. So call you back.

And so she called me and she's like, I am so sorry. I've been in court. I just.

It did.

I dropped the ball a little bit. And she's like, okay, so did you get your things from the house? And I was like, no, because I've been putting it off. It's so stressful.

It's so stressful going to that house even when he's not there. It's just depressing for me. And so I have been putting it off. And she's like. I said, no, I haven't.

And she's like, oh, no, I really thought you would have done that by now. She's like, go get your stuff and then we'll get back in touch and. And we'll do the. Do the serving or whatnot. So.

So now you can get back in touch though, right?

Yep. This weekend I went and got all my stuff. I had some friends helping me and I did it. So I guess it's a success. Not just you can do hard things.

Yeah, that. Thank you.

Yeah.

So I'm going to email the. Well, look over like, the paperwork she sent me and just say yes or no.

This is.

This looks good. And then. Yeah, we're going to do it.

This whole process, I will say, has gone so fast for you. Like, it went from. I mean, I won't say zero because I feel like this has been a slow burn, like, build up.

Yeah.

But I would say with that being said, we probably, like, you were starting at like a three and it went from three to nine in like a day. Like, yeah, you're still living at home and things are fine to. All of a sudden, like, just out of the blue, I can't even live at home. I'm not safe.

So it's. Your last two months have literally been on the go on fire nonstop.

Like, yeah, it's been wild. You're right. And we can talk about it too. Right now I.

I'm actually surprised I'm even like saying, oh, yeah, I'm filing and Brett's going to get served. Like, that's. That right there is kind of hard to say out loud, but it's happening.

So I guess it's just nice to Be able to have the support that I've had. Everybody has been so amazing and so kind and patient with me, so. Yeah.

Well, I'm excited for everyone to hear in a couple of weeks when you talk about, you know, deeper into your past and stuff and how it affected you and the. How things like this affected you in the past versus how they're affecting you now, because it.

It's a huge difference, and it's literally a show of how much you've grown to be able to accept and handle things as they come and be able to confidently say, this is happening. But you know what? It's for the best, like. Cause it is for the best, like. And you know that.

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Thank you. That's true. It is. So, yeah, it went really fast from zero. Like you said.

It's.

It was a slow burn for a long time. I think it's one of those things when a woman decides she's decided, and so it was like I was thinking about it for a long time. I just. I'm not happy.

Um, and then once I decided, I. I had to. I had to make moves, so.

Yeah. Well, I'm proud of you. Thank you. Necessary. And we were.

A lot of us were worried about you for a hot minute, so I'm really glad that you felt comfortable enough to just rip the band aid off.

Thank you. Thank you.

So here we are.

And I want to say, too, I feel like I can only do it because of everybody around me, so thank you.

And where you've been and where you are now.

That's right. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you very much. Did you bow?

I did.

I was like.

Oh, my God, I can't. My fail, I feel like, is super depressing.

So I'm gonna keep it, like, really short and fast because we're actually gonna brush on it in the episode today.

We do.

So I.

It was.

Was it Melissa? Remind me. It was. So Ada died on a Sunday, and then it was that following Wednesday. Right. That I accidentally.

I think. So, like, it was.

It was. It was.

It was within the next week. Yeah, for sure.

Okay.

So after a few days after Ada died, I. You guys know, I was having a really, really hard time. I still have a hard time when I.

I finally wrote for the first time in one of my pen pal letters about what happened to her yesterday and, like, bawling like, the rest of the day. So it's still really hard.

Yeah, it is hard.

Obviously, because I'm gonna start crying again, but she's your baby. Okay, so. Yeah, you guys know that. I, I think you guys know that I used to take Delta eights to help me sleep.

But then when the seizure started, I stopped using it because they said, hey, there's been some things noticed that long term use of the Deltas can lead to seizures, psychosis, just random psychological things. And so we were like, okay, well let's not risk it, let's stop using that. And they put me on like Trazodone.

So that was a supplement that helped me sleep. And then I no longer needed the Delta 8s. But when Ada died, I was, I wasn't sleeping well and I, I don't think I was trying to.

I don't think I was looking to necessarily knock myself out. I think I was looking for something to kind of like numb the mind and maybe the emotions. And so I was like, well, you know, getting high helps.

And so I. Yeah, there's upper time. I know, I. And that you needed it.

Like you felt like you needed it.

But yeah, it sounds bad, but it wasn't even like I, I took it responsibly. I took it, it was a night time, it was at bedtime. And usually when I was taking it regularly, I would take a whole gummy.

And I was like, well, I haven't taken it in probably like over, I mean, two years maybe.

And so I was like, oh, I'll take a half.

And so I only had a half and it knocked me out. Like literally I slipped, slept that night through the whole entire next day into the next morning.

And when I woke up, I was still high and had to like work off the high throughout that day. And I was like, man, that is not okay. That is not good. And so I know it wasn't okay. I know it wasn't good. So I'm not doing it again.

But grief, you know, made it happen.

Grief will make you. Yeah.

Lack of judgment. So.

And what. No, I. Maybe you were about to say what I was gonna say. I was gonna say.

And we find out later because when we were talking to her that it's actually quite normal.

Yeah. And I was really glad that she said that.

And another thing that Jobeth says, and I can't remember if she says it in the episode or if it was when we were doing our pre episode plus planning session. She basically says that. Oh, how exactly did she say it? Because it was like really? It really, really helped.

Basically she just normalizes and like acknowledges that I minimized it being a dog. I mean, you'll learn how Jo Beth, like, what happened to her and how she built this business, and, you know, why she is who she is.

And I was like, oh, well, my dog just died. And, you know, I'm sorry about yours.

And she goes, way worse.

Yes, yes. I literally did that. And she's like, no, it's not a comparison. She was like, it's. It's the same thing.

Like, that dog was with you all through your 20s into your 30s. So, like, was literally growing up with you into adulthood. And I was like, yeah, you're right.

It's one of the lines that you're going to hear her say. But it stuck with me since we've talked to her, and she said grief is felt at 100%, and it doesn't matter who, like, what it was.

You're still feeling it at 100%. And you can't compare it to. It's 100% grief.

Yeah.

I thought that was really interesting because it's easy to try to say, well, it couldn't have been as bad as so and so's.

Yeah. So. But don't be scared to listen to this episode. We really do tackle it tactfully, but with, you know, our usual humor. So it really is.

It's a good episode. She's so funny. I love her. And you guys will do.

Yeah, she's great. So, Jo Beth.

We are Skirts up women empowering and supporting women. We are helping each other, and that's exactly what we are doing today. This is a safe space to talk about hard stuff and. All right.

Introduce yourself and what you do and how you got into this.

Yeah. My name is Jo Beth Evans. I am remarried, so I'm actually getting ready to change my name. So I'll be Jo Beth Paulie. But I do. Thank you. But I do. Yes.

No, it's like. It's one of the best things that. That's ever happened in my life. So I do exactly what you guys are talking about is empowering other women.

But I take them. I usually get them when they are in the deepest pit of their grief.

I always kind of use the imagery that, like, you know, when you're in the deep darkness of grief, like, you're down in this hole, this dark hole, and, like, I'm the person that's reaching down and pulling you up into the light. And I'm showing you that there's. There's a. There's. There is light. There is something good that can come from this.

Like, you don't have to do it alone. Definitely A hype girl. I'm not the person who always say, like, I'm not going to sit in your poopy diaper with you. I'm going to.

We're going to acknowledge your grief. Like, we do that. It's not like the worst, like, ah, forget it, or anything like that.

But it's like you have people in your life that know how to do sad with you. Like, they're familiar with that. They can do that. They can, you know, be there with you. I'm there to pull you up out of it.

So I play a different role in your life, but really giving you the tools and the support and everything you need to, like, totally transition.

And, you know, we're looking at identity shifts a lot of times of, like, going from this victim to, like, golly, I'm a victor, like, this terrible thing happened. But, like, I can take it and do something really great with it and really, really have an impact on the world.

And I think that that is the best thing we can do when we lose somebody to honor their life is to go live a full life with purpose.

And I think a lot of times people think that staying in their grief and not moving forward, moving forward, not moving on, not forgetting, but moving forward. Like, there's like, that they're somehow honoring their loved one that way. And I disagree.

I think that our loved ones would want us to go live a full, wonderful life and honor them in that way. And so I give people the tools and the love and the support and the community to be able to do that. And I'm very much, like I said, a hype girl.

Pull you up. Like, I'm gonna be there with you. Like, no, not today. Because there's a lot of times that you don't want to get up out of bed. You don't want to live.

And I'm there to tell you that you got a reason to, right?

Yeah. We're getting out.

And you're not wrong, though, because I know that I have not experienced grief, like a death that's really close to me until my dog died. And I remember, like, you know, people around me would have a death.

And I literally don't know how to be there for you because I don't know what it feels like. And I don't know. So I can your sadness, but I don't know what to do about it. And so I feel like.

I feel like what's beautiful is that you are that person who's there and able to, you know, how to help people through It.

Yeah. And I think you're, like, in a. A large pool of people that, like, you're like, I love you, but I don't really know what to do for you.

And, yeah, nobody does. And as.

As somebody who's went through something terrible, like, people say the wrong thing, and there's not a lot of things that are the right thing to say, because everybody wants to say something that makes you feel better. Right. You're like, what can I say to this person to make them feel better? Puts a lot of power that you think you have on you.

You don't have the power to change this. Like, you don't have the power to make them feel better.

I always joke that the best thing you can say to somebody is, I'm thinking of you, or, I'm praying for you, and, can I bring you dinner on Thursday? Like, you want to do something? I love that you said that. Yeah. Like, do something that's going to be helpful.

And it's not, like, what can I do for you?

It's.

I'm doing. This is what I'm doing on this day.

Yeah.

And all you have to do is sit back and accept it.

Yeah. And that's. That's a problem, too. When people are like, what can I do for you? You're like, dang. Well, I got. I got a lot of laundry that needs done.

I need help taking the kids places. Like, I. I don't want to cook. I don't have time to cook. And, like, just saying, like, this is what. No, no questions. Like, what day is best?

Like, that might be the question, you know? But, yeah, nobody knows what to do. But everybody thinks that maybe they can say something that's going to make the person feel better and that just.

You don't have that power.

So you built a business where you are helping people. What is the business called?

Okay, so it's NWA Grief Specialist, because I'm located in northwest Arkansas, but we definitely work with people, like, worldwide. People all over the world are going to be at my. My webinar, you know, listening.

And grief is the same no matter where you live, and grief is very different. But so it basically. Yeah, it just. I was like, you know, we need more people that are doing grief work.

And, like, for me, I was looking for people who, like, all of us. Like, does she look like me? Does she. Does she have my energy? Does. Because, like, you don't.

You want to find somebody you have common ground with, you know, and to connect with. And so I was like.

Because you're sharing a big, big, hard part of yourself with this person.

Oh, yeah, because in the work I do. So, like, the difference between what I do in therapy. So in therapy, like, therapy is all about you. So you don't know anything about your therapist.

A lot of times, like, you know nothing about their struggles. They're not supposed to talk to you about their struggle. In the work that I do, I always share first.

So I'll be like, okay, this is, like, the steps that we go through.

So, like, one of them is a loss history graph where we go through and we graph every loss to try to understand, like, how you've dealt with grief in the past. I share mine first. And so that way it's like, okay, like, she was vulnerable with me. I see how she dealt with it. Gives them a lot of.

Gives them an example of how to share and then also builds trust with them. It's like, okay, she was willing to share this with me. Now I can share it with her.

And it kind of lets them off the hook a little bit to be like, okay, I can do this report right.

Rapport.

Yeah, Rapport.

Yeah. It's building rapport. You're right. I was gonna ask you what.

If you don't mind sharing with us now, since you did bring it up, what did happen that kind of, like, spearheaded this?

Yeah.

So understand this. Wanting to know more and understand grief and.

Right. So, I mean, back before this major event happened, I went through infertility, and I didn't really know how to deal with that.

Like, the best word to describe is just complete. Everything felt complete. We just bought a farm. We were building our dream house, or we just finished it. And, like, everything was, like.

It was one of those times. I was just like, is this, like. It almost felt, like, too good to be true. It was, like, kind of like waiting for. For the ball to drop.

Like, everything looks so good. Like, the kids were doing pretty well, and, like, we were homeschooling, and my husband's career was going amazing.

I was working for the University of Arkansas, teaching public speaking when the kids were doing their work. And, like, everything seemed, like, so good.

And then my husband's personality started to change a little bit, and I'm like, kelly, he's kind of a jerk. Like, he's, like, being hateful, and he's picking Fights. And I'm like, this is not. Like, this is not my husband.

And I had this feeling of, like, I can't stay in a marriage like this. Like, this is terrible. But, like, he was so hateful. I didn't want to leave the kids with him either. Like, and divorce him. And I had committed to him.

And so I was like, I don't know what to do with this.

I'm worried. I know where this is going.

Yeah. So two weeks after I had this moment of, like, I don't know if I can do this. He started getting really bad headaches. And we went to the doctor.

They immediately sent us back for a ct, did a CT of his brain came out. He has a huge mass on the front right part of his brain, which, if you know, is where you. Where your personality is at. And so I'm like, oh, gosh.

So they sent us over across the road to the emergency room for an mri.

And within an hour, we had our MRI Doctor came in, diagnosed him with terminal brain cancer called glioblastoma and gave us a pamphlet that said, you know, his prognosis was 12 to 16 months and that there was no effective treatment for it. And they gave us a pamphlet, scheduled the time, told us to call Monday to get an appointment with a surgeon.

And, you know, that we could do surgery, we could do radiation, but nothing was going to work. Like, he was going to die.

Sent us home, and we picked the kids up on the way back home because we didn't know how much time we were going to have left with him as a family. So we brought him home that night. From there, we decided. I was like. I was like, I.

And you probably already picked this up from me, but I was like, no, no, not denial. But he will be the one that beats this, because I'm gonna pray. I'm gonna fast. I'm gonna find the right doctors.

I'm gonna have him on every supplement. We're gonna be juicing. We're gonna be doing mindset work. Like, we're gonna do everything. And he is going to be like. He's gonna be like this person.

Person that, like, everybody's turning to, like, this guy. Like, he. He's the one who beat it. Now we can all do what he's doing, right?

And an inspirational miracle for everyone.

Yeah. And just like they had told us, nothing worked. And so he slowly deteriorated over the course of 12 months.

He lived 12 months past his diagnosis, and I. He was in hospice for a month, and I was just sitting there with him, like, he was totally out of it.

They had him medicated to where he couldn't feel anything, which is wonderful. Like, I love, love, love hospice and what they do for us and our loved ones.

About a month of sitting there being like, okay, like, the moment he passes, like, it's game on. Like, it's. It's you. You. You have a farm, you have a company, you have two kids, you have this house. Like, it's you and your job.

It's like, it's you that's gonna do all this. Yes, I had support and help, but ultimately it was me. And I was like, people die every day. Like, there has to be a blueprint.

There has to be something. And I kind of saw some coaches and stuff. It's just not feeling their vibe.

And I was like, if I can figure this out, if I can figure out how to do this, how to serve, not just to survive, because that's boring, but to actually, like, take it, survive it, and turn my life into it. Yeah. Just thriving in this really terrible situation. Like, I'm going to take as many women as I can through this.

Like, I'm going to be like, come on, girl. Like, we're going, like, you know, and that's what I did. I was very dedicated to the whole process.

It brings up a question for me, because earlier you were talking about, hey, I'm the one who's going to reach down. I'm going to pull you out of this darkness. And I wanted to know, like, what.

Does that look like?

Because you said also, when you're the one who's going through this, you are the one that has to take the steps. And, like, it's on you to, like, get out. But it does help to have somebody, like, at least a hand to reach towards. Right. Like, I know.

Tell us kind of what that looks like. How do you have somebody take responsibility for their actions but still know that you're there to help them?

Yeah. So there has to be an identity shift. People get stuck in the victim mentality. And I like to say that, like, victimhood is not a virtue.

Like, there is nothing good about being stuck in the victim mentality. We don't want you there. So something I really try to do is get them out of that. So that's like, things like, that's why I have my webinar.

That's why I have a Facebook page and social media is to try to help people to be like, oh, like, I. I don't want to be here anymore. I want to be there I want to be in this place of, like, where good things are happening and I'm making progress.

But if somebody's stuck in the victim mentality, and I see people like this all the time because they'll say things like, I will always be broken. Comparing grief. You don't know what I've been through.

Like we talked about earlier, like, these people that, that, like, they think that their situation is so much worse than everybody else's, that nobody else can understand, nobody else can help them. And that basically. Or, you know, I had another person say that, like, grief and recovering was easy for me. That's why I'm in the position I am.

And the reason they're in the position they are because it was easy for me and it was not easy for them. When we have. When you're stuck in that mindset, there's nothing anybody can do for you, like, because you're.

You're unwilling to be open to the possibility of being okay again. Like, I'm not saying thriving again. I'm just saying they're not even open to being okay. And so we have to, like, shift that mindset.

And maybe they see a post or they see, you know, the webinar, they're like, okay, like, maybe it's possible. You know, maybe they start to entertain the idea that it's a possibility.

And so that's kind of where I try to get people is like, showing them what's possible. Like, okay, you don't want to get out of bed in the morning. Okay, you don't have a desire to live anymore. That's normal.

Like, I'm sorry, but that's normal. To lose your desire to live after you've had a major loss.

It would be very strange if you weren't experiencing some depths of despair, you know?

Yeah. Yeah.

Jo Beth and I were talking in our pre planning session about, you know, I've never experienced death before, but my dog dying is my first death and how hard that's been to where I did. I just told you guys, accidentally over medicate myself. And Jobeth was really nice and like, no, that. That happens.

Yeah. No, I mean, you know, most of us are experiencing grief for the first time, so we're just doing what we think is best doing. Doing.

Doing the best we can. And until somebody comes and shows us a different way, then that's just kind of where we are. And there has to be a lot of grace and grieving.

Like, there were things that I did that I was like, I probably could have done that a little Better. But at the same time, it's like, also realizing that, like, okay, this was my first time with this, so maybe, maybe I was okay. And I told.

I told you I was like, well, you woke up, so you got the opportunity to do it differently, and you did, you know, and that's so amazing. And that's what. That's what we want, is to be like, okay, that was. That maybe was not the best decision. Let me do better this time.

Let me do better today. Right.

And not be hard on yourself, because I feel like probably you did what you could at the time.

Yeah, for sure. Like, that's what I used to say. Yeah, I used to say that, like, there's no wrong way to grieve. We're all just doing the best we can.

But that was before I started working with people who are grieving and doing it the wrong way. And this is. This is interesting. This is upsetting for people, too. So trigger warning.

There is a wrong way to grieve, and it's a wrong way to grieve if you are hurting yourself or others. And when I talk about hurting yourself, it could be using your medications incorrectly. I see that happening a lot.

Using any kind of drugs or alcohol or turning to some kind of addiction because of your grief like that. Like, there.

I don't think there's anybody across the board that's going to say, like, yes, if you lose somebody and you need to use cocaine to feel better, it's okay. Like, it's just not. And like, some people go slower, some people go faster.

Yeah, that's part of, like, it being, like, okay, using it to doing something that's harming yourself is never in my book. It's not okay. And it's not okay if you have, you know, you're hurting other people in your life. Your children, pops, a partner.

Like, if it's causing damage, it's not the right. It's not the right way.

You're talking about mentally hurting. Not like, I mean, I'm sure, maybe physically, but, like, mentally, Yeah.

I mean, like, if you have kids and you're locking yourself in your bedroom every night and they're having to fend for themselves, or you're married, maybe you've lost a child and you shut your husband out and don't engage or have any relationship with him anymore, like, like I said in my book, that's not okay. Like, that's not what we want. And so when we're hurting, that's the time we bring our loved ones closer and not push them away.

And, you know, some people choose to grieve in ways that push people away. And that's, you know, and that's totally different than being like, okay, mommy needs to shower alone tonight. You know, like, so I need a second.

This is different.

Yeah.

So, like, a lot of people, when they're in that, like, that feeling, like they're in that dark hole, like you called it, you can't really sometimes tell that you're even there. You do, you know what I mean? Like, and it might take somebody else to come in and say, so do you have, like, suggestions for people, too?

Because I'm wondering, like, how do we get. People are like, how do you get people to find you when they don't even know that they need you? Does that make sense? Yeah.

I mean, I've had lots of people who, like, will send family members my website and be like, I'll pay for. Pay for you to work with her. You know, I'll. I'll do my part.

That doesn't sound like it works.

I mean, because they don't want it. Ah. And when they don't want it, yeah, they have to be ready. And like, like I said, like, just giving little.

Like, maybe they come across anything that's, like, positive. And as a griever, like, I'm in all the grief groups, I mostly am just standing back watching what's happening.

But it's a lot of people posting stuff like, you're gone and I will miss you every day until I'm with you again.

And it's like, okay, gosh, I don't want to make people mad, but it's like, anytime you're feeding that negativity into you, like, I'm going to feel this way the rest of my life. Like, that's not good. So they're seeing more of that than they are positive stuff.

And I think that definitely is, like, playing into them being like, oh, this is just life now. This is how it's going to be forever.

It's like what Terry Christine said. She said, I cannot want to heal you more than you want to heal yourself. Otherwise, this will not work. And she's had to let people go.

So I feel like there has to be steps. You said you feel that you've created a blueprint. What are these steps that someone takes to move towards recovery? Recovery?

Is that the word? Yeah, I would use recovery or healing. And that's another controversial thing. Some people say you can't heal.

And I'm like, well, I don't agree with that. It's just not a. It's not a concept I buy into. But yeah, so, yeah, it's not necessarily like steps.

It's more like a group of things that come together so you have to be educated. And so one of the things that, you know, we wanted to talk about were the stages of grief. Right. And what, what those are? Well, the stages of grief.

And you can find a free ebook on my website that talks about it. But the stages of grief were written for somebody who is dying. Okay. They're not written for somebody who's living and living with that kind of grief.

And so I think that's what we need to keep in mind. But those stages are denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. Okay, wait, do you mean that they're.

Written for somebody who found out they're going to die?

Oh, that's why the lady. That's why the lady wrote those. But we've all taken them on as like, this is it. These are the stages that I'm gonna go through. Yeah.

And it's not so, like, I never went through denial. I never went through anger, I never went through bargaining. But I did have depression and acceptance.

So like, so if I was a griever and I was buying into the idea that I had to go through, like, all these steps. Oh, like, I would be like, waiting, like, oh, when's the denial gonna hit? Like, I'm just waiting for the next thing.

But I do want to also clarify what you and I jobeth talked about when we were doing our planning session is that grieving isn't just the death. It can be, oh, I've lost a limb, I've lost a partner, I've lost, like in divorce. It's not. Grieving is not just death.

So I actually think it's very appliable that you mention that the steps of grieving were written for not the living.

Right.

Because we are living through all these different types of grief.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. So it looks. It looks different like when you're. You've lost a limb or you've lost a marriage or. Yeah. And I think I.

Yeah, we kind of like take grief and we say, okay, it's just for the dying. But. And you and I talked about in the pre call that, like, in a lot of ways, divorce is worse. And. Because that's what you were saying.

Because, like, just from what I've experienced, because I have my experience and I've watched people who are divorced, but I will never see my husband with another woman. He will never have children with another woman. I'm never. He's never going to hurt me beyond what's happened.

Whereas with divorce, you know, we see, you know, you have to adjust to them dating and then you have to see them potentially have kids with somebody else and build this life. Like, it's like this keeps hurting. Right. There's these harsh words. Yeah, the words, the. All the things. And so, like, golly, yeah. Divorces.

How come they can build this another life and be what this person needs, but they couldn't for me. Or maybe that's just one.

No, it's hurt.

Yeah. It's a continuous. It's. It's. It's continuous. Where was my. Mine was like, had a finite end. Like, it was just like, here it is. It's over. Like, there.

There will be nothing else exist with this relationship. No more hurt to move forward. Yeah. And so divorce is really tough.

But so if you're listening and you're like, you know, I'm grieving the loss of my marriage. I'm grieving the loss of my.

I didn't tell you, but that's what we have right here. My grieving is my dog. Her grieving is a divorce.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, it's. And, you know, it's very real. And you may have. You've probably experienced the. Some of the stages.

Yeah, I kind of want to throw out one more thing, too. Like, part of me feels like I shouldn't be grieving because I'm the one that initiated it, but there's still a bunch of, like, there's still grief.

And I feel like if I feel that way, then other people have got to be feeling that way. And I don't think it's the right.

You were feeling bad about that. You're like, I feel guilty. Like, I shouldn't be sad. I'm the one who initiated.

But then in the same sentence, he told me, but he was my best friend and he changed.

And.

Yeah.

Yeah, I have to change.

Okay, so can I coach you on that, please? So the first thing is, is that it. It was a loss period. So, like, you need to validate that immediately.

And I would try to stop thinking about, well, I shouldn't. Thinking I shouldn't isn't going to get you anywhere but addressing why you should. You know, like, he. He was your best friend. You had years.

There were years that were good. Like, you chose to marry him. Like, you enjoyed being married to him for a while.

And so those are things, like, if you were a client of mine, like, we would go through and we would celebrate that. And not, like, we're not cake and candles. Okay.

But, like, we're, like, we're talking about, like, giving voice to it and saying, you know, like, whatever his name is.

Remember that good time.

Yeah. Like, thank you. Like, verbally saying thank you for all those good years. Like, it was so wonderful.

And then we can also go back and say, like, you know, like, I. One of the big things that we talk about is, like, giving. Giving words to stuff.

So, like, if there was something like that you couldn't forgive him for, we want to validate that. So it's like, let's say this is not your situation. So to clear up anybody who's listening.

But if, like, there was a situation where somebody molested you, you would probably wouldn't be at a place where you could forgive them. Okay. But what we want to do is give voice to that. So we would say something like, let's say it's John. I'm so sorry if there's a John listening.

When you molested me, it made me feel very scared, and you took my sense of trust and safety from me. And I'm not going to carry the weight of that anymore or I'm not going to let that hurt me anymore. I'm not going to carry the burden of that anymore.

Something along those lines. Because, like, we can't just let it hang out, you know, like, it needs to be addressed and it needs to be given words.

And, yeah, you initiated this situation, but you need to grieve it so you can move forward. Because if you just, like, dismiss it, it's going to keep coming back. So take care of it so you can get rid of it and live your life fully.

But, yeah, that's. Divorce is.

Yeah, I don't.

I don't want to speak for you, but I feel like from what you're saying, in her situation, Melissa would sit with herself and be like, you know, I'm so thankful for this and this and this and our time together. But when you said this, when you changed in this way, you hurt me, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's what you are dropping.

Yeah. Speak those feelings. So those feelings are really important, too.

Like, you need to see how you feel about, do I feel betrayed or do I feel disrespected? Do I feel let down? Do I feel.

Neglected?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, whatever the word is, neglected, hurt, you know, and you want to get to the. The core of those feelings. Anger is not one.

You need to get deeper than anger because you're Obviously. Probably angry. Like, but what's.

I'm glad you just said that because, like, I want to say I've seen charts before from past therapists where, like, there's the emotion. Feelings, yes. And it gets deeper and deeper. I have one, but I can't reach it, honestly.

Right there.

If you wanted to, like, share it with us later or something, because I.

Have one in my binder.

I think it's so helpful because sometimes we're not 100% in tune with what we're feeling, or we just think we just slap on an emotion even though.

It'S a little deeper. Yeah. Angry or sad. Those are easy. I'm angry or I'm sad. Well, there's more to it than that.

Yeah. I feel like I took us kind of off track. You were going to tell us the blueprints before I kind of.

Oh, yeah, yeah, sorry. I definitely was part of that. Going off the track.

No, I'm gonna.

This is what.

This is what we do.

Yeah.

It's totally normal. And then we go, wait a second. We were about to learn something. Let's go back.

The reason I brought up the stages of grieving was because, like, when you talk about a blueprint, like, it almost seems like, dit, dit, dit, dit. But actually, like, there is no pattern. There is no, like, oh, this time's gonna be harder now than it is next year. That was something.

That's a myth, too. Is it, like, time is going to make a difference and time doesn't make a difference?

The only time time makes a difference is when you're actively working towards your recovery. And then it. It does because you have, like, you've got some traction and action pushing you.

So the blueprint, what really you need as a griever is education. Because if you don't, like, if, like, if you're believing in these steps and you're like, oh, I'm waiting for the ball to drop.

Like, haven't felt angry yet. Like, when's it coming? You're. You're on the wrong path. You need to just let things come as they are. But you need education.

You need to know, like, what you're dealing with. So understanding your own experience with grief, what did it look like for you to grieve? What did it look like for your parents to grieve?

Because probably the way you're grieving is similar to the way they grieved, very possibly because you saw that model. So when your dog got ran over, how did your mom act when grandma died? So Like, I'm gonna model that a little bit, probably as a child.

And then you just. Next thing you know, you're an adult and you're dealing with some big stuff, and you mo. You're doing what you did as a child.

So, like, how did you handle it when your dog died? Oh, so you chose to get on your. Your PlayStation and zone out. Oh, you just got divorced, so you just watch TV all the time.

Like, you know, like, you're. You're using the same coping mechanism. So we look at that. That's part of education. So the education is like, let's look at the.

You know, what am I doing? Yourself? Like, how are. How have. What we're educating you on you. Like, what have you been doing? Then we look at, like, what are you using to cope?

Like, are you using. Are you listening to good podcasts? Are you journaling? Are you going for a walk? Or are you watching TV and binge eating?

Tearing down Jo Beth on social media?

Are you attacking me on social media? Like, what are you doing?

Okay, sorry, Low blow.

No, that was. No, I mean, but seriously, like, these people are. You know, there's. There's. There's something happening there for them and that.

Like, they're just exploiting themselves. But anyways, I'm glad you said that.

Because we were talking about that how hurt people. Hurt people.

Yeah. That's why we have to take this seriously. We can't just be, like, haphazardly, like, rolling through our grief. And that's what we.

That's what we look at. That's why we're looking at this. Like, how did you behave?

Then we also look at, like, all the losses you've experienced, because some people are like, yeah, like, nobody's ever died before, so I haven't really experienced grief. It's like, oh, but you were sexually abused as a child. You've experienced grief. Yeah. Or, yeah, you know, your house burned down.

Like, somebody stole something that was really important to you. You know, like, there's so many things.

It'S easy to minimize.

Oh, and that's a thing. That's definitely a thing. People are like, oh, well.

So just like, the lady I was talking about was like, you don't know what grief is because you haven't lost a child. We do that in the reverse. I have people come to me and be like, my mom died, but I can't talk to you about it because, like, your husband died.

And that's so much worse than my mom dying. And I'm like, stop. Like, we're comparing grief and what other people.

I did that to you.

You did. And I told you to stop.

I said, oh, shit. Your husband died, My dog died.

Right. And like. Like, it feels differently, right? Like, if you're. If your partner or best friend died, it would feel very different than your dog dying.

But grief has always experienced it 100%. It doesn't matter who or what it is. Like, you're experiencing it fully. So it. To compare.

That's a good thing to remember.

Yeah. So don't. Don't compare. But the.

We have this huge education component that I walk people through, but also, like, I am that person that's pulling you up out of the dark. So I do something called Marco Polo with. It's an app, a video app where it's like, we just video send it video send it back, like, as. As we can.

It's not immediate, but, you know, as soon as we can, we get back to each other. But you need that because it's like, hey, I'm feeling like I want to give up today. And I'm like, you're not giving up today.

In fact, you're getting up right now, and you're gonna take action. You're gonna go do something. You're gonna go for a walk, you're gonna call a friend, you're gonna go out and eat something.

Like, you know, encouraging that action and just repetitively pulling them up. But. But grievers need that. They have people in their life that know how to do sad.

They don't have people in their life that's like, I don't care if you're mad at me. Like, I don't care if this hurts your feelings. Like, I'm here to tell you that you are going to get up and shower today because you're a warrior now.

Like, you've made a decision to not be a victim anymore. And that's what I'm helping you do. Also.

I do first three steps. Like the days that I can't get out of bed. Simon. And we've reversed it sometimes. Sometimes he can't get out of bed, and we just ask each other.

You do three steps.

I did do it to you. So good friends, you don't want to get out of bed. Okay, well, first step is getting out of bed. Then put on clothes, then brush your teeth.

And they don't have to be big steps.

No, it doesn't. It doesn't have to be big steps. It just has to be the steps that get you out.

Right. Like, I'm not Asking you to get up and start a non profit in memory. If you're a partner, I'm just saying you got to get up, right?

And being that person. But you need that.

But what you also need and what you guys have with each other and your partner is that like somebody that's there to like, love you and listen to you through that. And I found that organically. It just so happened that a friend of mine's sister's husband died of glioblastoma too. And she was like, can you talk?

Like, I think you guys should connect or whatever. And she's like one of my best friends. Like, I talk to her all the time and we say things to each other that we can't say to anybody else.

And this would be the same for a parent who's lost a child. Like, there's hurts and pains that you say to somebody else and they're gonna be like, oh, my gosh, I have no idea what to do with that information.

Like, you will scare them to death. And I guess that's why group therapy.

Is sometimes a thing. Like for a lost child, for just. Yeah, all those different types of.

That makes sense, actually.

Yeah. Because you want. You want that connection with somebody.

And so that's something else that as my programs grow and that we find new people is to be like, hey, you know, like, this person also lost their husband to suicide. I think you guys should talk because then they can be like, oh my gosh, when I found him, X, Y and Z. And that person's been through it.

So they're like, girl, I know. Like, I understand.

Like, you're not going to drop that huge, like, bomb on just somebody. Oh, interesting, right?

Like, they can say it's me, but they need a friend. Yeah. It's like a almost like dating app for grievers.

That's really cool.

It is. Because you need that. Like, there was a moment.

It's like a mentor.

Yeah. Just somebody to walk. Walk with you through it. Because there was a time when I was like, I had this really weird memory that was not weird.

It was just really dark coming up. And I'll share it with you guys because that's what we're doing.

But I called my friend and I was like, man, I was like, I can't stop thinking about how hard it was to decide that that was the last time to see my husband, like, after he had passed. Like, I knew as soon as I said, like, I'm like, okay, I'm ready to go home, that that was gonna Be it like, there would be no more seeing.

I would never see him again. And so, like, I kept touching him and his body as his body got cold and like, just like, I didn't want to let him go. And like, I had to.

I could talk to her about that because she was like, yeah, I know. Like, I know what that felt like. Like you being the one that's making the decision to walk away knowing it's the last time.

And so we need people like that. And they're not always our friends.

In fact, they're probably very seldom our friends because how common is it that you have a friend that's experienced the same thing as you? Not very common. So, yeah, I like to connect people so that they can have a friend and be like, hey, like, today's hard.

Remember anniversaries and birthdays with, you know, and reach out. But that's an important component too, is having that community. And I love that in my group, I get to do whatever I want because it's my group.

And like, so if I want to, like, you know, like, over provide and over serve and over love, like, I can do that because I'm calling the shots and I'm gonna. I give them whatever they need to be able to be like, I. I have everything I need to be successful, you know, and I get to provide that.

So that kind of being said, do you tend to keep. Okay, so like in therapy, they, you know, you kind of hear the joke that, like, oh, I want my clients to graduate from thera.

I don't want to see them again. It means they're doing better.

But I almost wonder if, like, in your field, maybe you want them to stick around because they are going to be able to be that guiding hand to help the next person.

Yeah. So I feel like. So my group is six months and so there's like eight. The first two months is like major hand holding. Major. Because we want to. Wow.

So it's an actual, like, it's like a. Almost like a course in a way.

Yeah, it's like a course. So the grief group is kind of like a course. It's so it's very structured. Very.

And are these the blueprints that we're trying to get through?

Yeah. So yeah. So the blueprint is like.

You are so cute. Just curious, is this course like the blueprint?

This is the happiest podcast I've ever been on. So yeah.

So the blueprint consists of the grief recovery method that I walk them through, the one on one support, the big Group support and then the one on one friendship that I fine for them. And even if like there's not like somebody in that group that connects because there probably won't be. I know lots of people.

So it's like if you lost a child to suicide, like I know three people. If you lost husband suicide, I got three people. Like if you, you know, I can connect. You lost a spouse.

I got lots of those people because that's a lot of what I attract. But yeah, so those are like the four different parts. But yeah. So to, to answer your question, the goal is, is that they're.

They feel good enough to leave in six months. If they want to stay, that's great. Like if they feel like they want that. Cuz the grief doesn't have a timeline.

But the, if I have two people who have gone through the program, they should be able to show up and love and support and encourage each other so that, that point they can like stop paying for help and have a friendship where they're connected there. So that's, that's what it is. Because in the, in the group, the Facebook group that they're all the big group.

That's an additional part of the blueprint. They. I have guest speakers that come in that talk about finances or you know, different parts of healing.

Like definitely going to throw in some RT therapy that we talked about. Like some things that are like really important but not necessarily things I'm an expert in. So bringing more people in that are like I don't.

You don't want me to talk to you about finances? Somebody should shut off my Amazon account.

So we're bringing in this guy, you know, to talk to talk to all of us because I shouldn't talk to you about it. So yeah, there's a big part. But, but the goal is. Yeah.

That you get what you need and then you have these connections that are going to be with you a lifetime because you're always going to have this loss, always going to have this grief to an extent. So you want somebody to just walk through the rest of your life with you.

Wow, that's amazing.

Yeah. Now ask me what happened when she asked me if I've ever heard of Marco Polo.

She asked if it was the game.

Oh no. That's so cute.

She looks so Asian. Oh no, no. You don't know.

It's so fun. It's good for friends. It can't be physically with each other like because it's for the people that I don't ever get to see.

We talk Every day on there, it's like a voice.

It's like a. It's like. It's like instead of just making a voice memo, you get the video too. You get to see and kind of be with your person in a way.

It's more intimate, for sure. More. More connected than a text or. Text is cold. You get the. Yeah, it's great. And that's how I prefer to speak with my.

My clients, because I need to pick up on energy and, you know, do they look like they brushed their hair today? Are they still in bed? You know, like, stuff like that you can't pull.

Yeah, no, no. Tricking you.

Yeah.

Have you had to fire a client? Like, you're trying to bring them to the healing journey, and you're trying.

You're trying, but you know that you want it more than they do at this moment. And you're like, we gotta cut ties for a little bit.

Yeah. They stop coming. They. They quit.

They know.

Yeah. They know that they can't do it anymore because, like, with the. The beginning part of the program, you have to do homework. Like, so you.

We don't do your loss history graph together. Like, you do that on your own, and then you come back and we share it.

Okay, let me just say that sounds terrifying to me.

Like, right, That's.

If I'm already, like, empty and you're asking me to do something, like, how. How does that work? I'm already empty.

Right. Well, that's why I offer, like, basically unlimited support.

It's because when you go off to yourself and you're like, oh, my gosh, like, had women come sit with me out by the pool and do it, because they're like, okay, like, I made. I've got one down. Like, okay, like, let's do the next. And you know, like, they need that support. And that was one thing.

When I started originally doing this, I was just doing the grief groups once a week. Like, you could text me, but, you know, it wasn't really encouraged. And I'm like, gosh, they need so much more.

You need that hand holding and somebody to be like, okay, like, and for you, if you were like, if you were telling me, you know, that sounds like too much for me, then I'd be like, okay, we're gonna set aside 30 minutes because that's all it should take. And we're gonna. I'm gonna stay on the phone with you, sound video with you.

You're gonna do it, and then we're both gonna agree when you're done that you're gonna get up and go do something. You're gonna go for a walk. You're gonna go take a shower. You're gonna go get a massage. You may go out and dinner with a friend.

Like, you're closing the door. You don't need to carry it the rest of the day until we meet again. And so really just being that voice for you, that's like, it's over.

Like, you did your work. You did what?

You swallowed your frog.

Yeah, you swallowed frog. Like, move on with your day. Like, you did what you were supposed to do. And so that felt helps us.

Instead of just like, lingering and mulling over something all day, all week, all month, for a year, we're like, I did my work. I did what? It's like this huge.

Like, I love that you're like, you can't just go and talk about it with me. We're not just going to sit there and talk about it.

You know what's really different though, too, is that when we go to our therapist, because we're going through shit or whatever and we're trying to figure stuff out, we're paying by the hour. She's offering. And correct me if I'm wrong, of course, that's unlimited help and assistance for six months.

So it's not like, if you do need assistance and, like, let's do a video sitting at the pool and help me, like, sit here and walk through it.

Like, you don't have that extra stress of, okay, well, this is another hour that, you know, I could have done it by myself, but now I have to pay for an extra hour because I needed extra help. And it's like, it's just all lumped in, and that's like. That's wild.

Yeah.

Yeah. Because. Because I was thinking, like, you know, there's no such.

I've said this before, probably because it's something that's on my mind a lot, but there's no such thing as just sitting in a stagnant, like a stasis. There's just. It doesn't happen. You're either progressing forward or you're falling behind.

And so the more you're just sitting there, not doing the things and taking steps, the worse it's going to get. So I love that you're like, no, you need to get out. We're going to do steps. It's not just, let's talk about it.

Yeah. And I also think there's some incentives. So you got six months, right, where therapy is indefinite. You go therapy the rest of your life.

So I'm saying, hey, you know, you're investing. So for my course, you're investing this amount of money and you could totally, like, use up all my time.

You could take such advantage of this opportunity and be like in a completely different space in six months. Or you could pay me the same amount of money and halfway do it and still have issues in six months. Like, what are you choosing to do?

Like, I say, like, let's get like, let's hit the ground running. Like, let's just like kick some doors down and see what's possible for you.

And so it's not like they're still going at their pace, but there's going to be, there's some incentive to like, get in there and get it, get it done and see what's possible as opposed to, like, and I'll just talk about it next week, you know.

Yeah.

So what advice do you leave? Would you leave with our listeners? Like, let's just say, hey, my husband just died. Like, what, what, what are you telling them?

What do they need to hear right now?

If it just happened? Like, definitely making sure the basic needs are taken care of. Are you sleeping? Are you eating?

Something I want to address and that we haven't talked about. I was, I took antidepressants for I think six months after my husband died and six months before.

And I was having panic attacks and I felt like taking them was a cop out. And I was like, this is like, he's having to suffer. He can't do anything about it, but I'm gonna like, medicate myself.

And I felt you had about it survivor's guilt. Yeah. And so I was like, you know, like, I should suffer just as much as he is. Like, that's kind of my mindset.

But like, once I got on em, I realized that, like, I was able to function through some of the days that were the hardest. And I took the pills appropriately and I weaned off appropriately. But like, I was like, this is short term. This is just something that I'm doing. So.

And I see that a lot of women that they're just so deep into it that like an antidepressant would be really helpful. And like, I'm not a doctor, I'm not prescribing, I'm not doing that.

But I am saying that, like, if you're in that space where like, you physically can't get out of bed or you're having panic attacks that are just like your body's out of control, like getting help with that is not something that you should just dismiss and understand that it's a temporary thing and you're going to start working. So if that's the case and you need that, but you have to have basic needs taken care of. Are you eating? Are you sleeping?

And are you able to stay awake?

And then from there, like, I want you to know that there is something beautiful that's going to come from this, and you really get to be the one that decides that.

And so I want you to fully fill all your feelings, but understand that when you're ready, there's a path forward, and that you have so much purpose and so much value in your life that you need to keep getting up, you need to keep looking for that purpose and that light in your life and get help. I was in therapy six months before he passed away and six months after. And I knew very quick it wasn't a journey. I was going to walk alone.

And if you're listening to this, you have me for sure. But you also have other options, too. And like. But the. The thing is, is you need to choose. You need to take action.

One last thing that she made me. You made me think of just now when you were talking is earlier you had said something about. This is why it's so important that we address this.

Because what. What we're feeling is just automatically going to get pushed back into the world and then start affecting other people.

So, like, when you're talking about starting something beautiful coming from this, something we can grow, that also is going to get pushed back out into the world. Positivity and just for the people all around us. So I just kind of. It's just a little thing that came to my mind and I was like, yeah, good.

Sorry. My daughter keeps calling me back to back. Okay. Yeah.

Hopefully everything is okay. That's code for emergency. Like, if you're doing that to ask me if you can go eat with your friends after school. School, like, there's a problem.

I said, are you okay? And she goes, yeah, stop calling me then.

That's scary. God.

Oh, children.

Yeah, but. But back to your point. Yeah, I mean, like, even if your big impact on the world is it, you're just an example of what's possible to somebody else.

That's enough.

That's beautiful.

Yeah. And with that being said, Jo Beth is with us today to explain.

Explain what is possible and to have this open conversation and to make known that she does have a course that can help you and will help you in whatever pattern of grief or whatever Type of grief that you're in. We did talk about that. You have clients that are grieving.

You know, again, we just keep saying the same things, but lost limbs, divorce, death, like, there's all different types of grief. And that's what you're here for.

Yeah, for sure. Like, I just want everybody to know, like, there's an option. Like, it. I mean, you can come hang out with me or not. I mean, I'm the better option.

I love it.

I think we should end with that.

I love that. That sounds so conceited. But I'm confident.

That's the thing. Like, why are we so scared of, like, being confident?

We.

Yeah, no, we want everyone to feel better about themselves. And I love that you were, like, just an example of that just now. You're right. It's the better option. Get out there.

Yeah.

Go meet with Jo Beth.

Come meet with me. And it's, you know, it's just. Man, it just feels so good to know that you're not doing it alone. And you invest in yourself. You're worth it.

What do you know? You're so young.

I'm just a child. Shout out to Botox. Yeah.

Been through a lot.

Oh, all right, well, just to recap.

App, your business is called NWA Grief Specialist. And you can find me on any of social medias there and Jo Beth Evans on Facebook. And then you guys, I think, are gonna link to the application.

So if somebody does wanna work with me, it is an application process because I'm very selective of who I work with. So if you. Yeah, I don't like. Because you work together. Right.

So if I bring somebody in that's like a total, like, not really committed, not really in it, like, you're going to bring the group down. And so, like, I'm looking for women who are heavy hitters, ready to kick some doors down. And so if you want to be in, like, apply.

And that opens this week. And, you know, no matter when you're listening, you can contact me on social. The application open and closes every month or two months. Okay.

Yeah. So we'll have that listed. And just know that we all have support.

Yeah. Yep.

Thank you so much.

Yep. Thank you, guys.

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