Richard Ellis is the listing agent for the home and was involved in the initial lawsuit. He shares with us an inside view of the lawsuit, and his own encounters in haunted homes.

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Written & Produced by R.J. Blake and Ray Tarara

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Special guests: 

Richard Ellis - Ellis Sothebys Realty

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Kai Engle

Feslyian Studios

[00:00:10] Richard Ellis: My name is Richard Ellis. I was the listing agent for 1 La Veta Place, the famous haunted house case in Nyack, New York.

[00:00:32] Richard: I started in the business in 1985. About six years or so.

[00:00:48] Richard: What happens many times in real estate, a property is listed with one agency and then it doesn't sell and then it was with another agency. The real estate market at that time was going through bit of a recession in the late '80s, early '90s, so things were selling slowly. We became the second listing office to list the property. I was familiar with it when it was listed with another broker then I became the listing agent for it.

[00:01:40] Richard: I believe at that time, I knew the stories of the house possibly being haunted or being haunted by according to Mrs. Ackley. To me, it looked like a classic haunted house. It was a big Victorian, three-stories high with a large cower on one side. It was asymmetrical and it had a big wrap around porch that faced the Hudson River.

It was on the dead end street and it looked like it was cared for through years. It was owned by the Ackley family for, I don't know, maybe 30 years. I'm not exactly sure. I forget now. It looked like it needed some sprucing up.

The first time I saw it, I was impressed with it. I think I had in the back of my mind heard the stories that maybe it was haunted and so that was in the back of my mind. For me, that was exciting. I was always fascinated with anything having to do with ghosts.

[00:02:55] Richard: That's a complicated answer. I hate to say I believe in ghosts but I have to answer that way. I think it probably is haunted.

[00:03:15] Richard: I hesitate because I have to see a ghost and it has to be proven me that there are such things. I did have a situation, they didn't mentioned it later where I perhaps had seen a ghost. In the Ackley house, I never saw anything. I did have a client once. He thought something brushed behind him when we're in the hallway of the house.

He later, after all the publicity, said that he could swear that was a ghost. That he saw that something brushed against him. Again, I kind of believe in ghosts. I think it's probably true, but I don't have 100% certainty on that topic.

[00:04:20] Richard: She was a very enthusiastic person. She loved her house. When she would talk about her ghost, which she would, she spoke about them with passion as if they were almost family members. She was an interesting person. She was smart, a character. She seems eccentric and overall a nice person.

[00:05:06] Richard: To be honest, I forget the exact details. It was such a long time ago, almost 30 years ago. Having read the stories and all the publicity through the years, I forget exactly when she said what. I believe she spoke about the ghosts, there were two women in hoop dresses. Perhaps civil war era as they've been described who materialized in her, I think her living room area.

There's two sitting rooms on the first floor on the left hand side. I believe at least at one time that they just appeared there. Then I believe separately, there was a man in a red coat, like a revolutionary war soldier's uniform. I think he was a short person and I know he appeared as well. I think where she had seen him, I believe one of the stories was perhaps he had visited one of her children upstairs in the bedroom.

[00:06:46] Richard: I clearly remember I never like going down the basement. By the way, the basement today looks nothing like the basement the way it was 30-plus years ago. It was an old basement and if you've been in old houses, big old houses in particular, many times the basement is just what you might describe as a scary place.

That lot of times lightbulbs aren't working and sometimes it's narrow corridors and there's different finished rooms here and there. That's how the Ackley basement was. Actually, the rooms were not finished, but they were old storage rooms down there. None of the lightbulbs work.

I just remember, I really never liked being down there. Maybe it was towards the back of the basement in particular. I remember there was some area that I just feel you just wanted to get out of. It was just a feeling that I had. I don't recall if there were any stories about the basement in particular, but it just always made me uncomfortable going down there.

[00:08:13] Richard: I agree. Especially if you watch scary movies. If someone goes down the basement, you know something bad is going to happen. I don't know. It was just an uneasy feeling that I would have when I went there.

[00:08:34] Richard: Well, actually, it was the first time I showed the house about 20, 25 years later when the house was listed. As you know, the house had been resold four or five times. I was a listing agent at a later point. Maybe it was 2005, 2008 something like that.

It was the very first time I had a showing there. I was rushing through the house to put all the lights on and I heard a car door slammed outside the house and I figured my clients were there. We're showing it personally to some people, who coincidentally were the people who bid against Stambovsky when he ended up getting the house.

The house got into a bidding war between two people. These were the people who were in the process of selling their house in Piermont, which is an adjoining community to the Nyack's. They wanted to take a look at it supposedly, they were serious about maybe purchasing it.

I'm rushing through the house and I get all the way up to the last room, which was the tower room. I just heard the car door slam and I go to light a sconce, which is on the wall and a flames bursts out. The lightbulb bursts. The glass hit the floor and flames were coming out of the sconce.

Now, there was two little silk shades, one of the silk shades caught fire instantly and I pushed it off on to the floor. I stepped on it. I don't know what I did. I don't know if the fire then just went out or it tried to blow it out. I remember feeling panicked and I then was thinking, "Oh, my God, what's going on?" Scientifically, is there going to be fire in the wall? Is it an electrical issue? Now, I heard someone knocking on the door. I thought, "Should I call the fire department or show the house?" As a true realtor, I said, I'm going to show the house.

I opened the window in the tower to get some fresh air in there. Again, I had stepped on the silk shade, which really a flame was on the shade. A true flame was coming out of the socket in the small sconce on the wall. The wall didn't appear to be warm or hot.

I went down, greeted the people. Never mentioned anything to them. It's a very large house so by the time I got up to the tower room, that's the last house. It's on the top floor, the end of the hall. The window was open, they didn't say anything, I didn't say anything.

[00:11:50] Richard: That's very possible. I don't know the house had a lot of work done, a lot of mechanical work was done. I don't know specifically if the wiring had ever been changed. Many times in the 1940s, and '50s, and '60s, people ripped out the old wiring and then put BX in , which is that metal cased electrical wires. I don't know. I really don't know.

In hindsight, immediately after the showing and stuff, obviously was a real estate first where something like that happens. Then I just saw it, "Wow. What a coincidence." Then I thought, I do believe sometimes nothing is a coincidence.

Again, I'm not saying there was a ghost in the house but it made me think, it was so odd that my first showing was this a ghost trying to tell me something. I don't know what that is, but trying to say, "I'm still here." I don't know, I have no idea. It was just very odd that that happened the first time that I showed the house.

[00:13:13] Richard: [chuckles] Maybe. I actually did speak to the owners about what had happened. Actually, when I first got the listing or spoke to them with marketing the property, I suggested to them that the house had so much press about this ghost that I thought it would be a good PR angle if we did a PR release and tell people that make it a fact, this is the haunted house, the famous haunted house at Nyack.

They didn't want anything to do with that. They did not want me to discuss anything of that nature with anyone. When I did tell them what had happened, they just said they would take care of it and that was that.

[00:14:15] Richard: I thought with the Ackley house, that as there was so much publicity with it that it would've been a positive way to sell. It would've been so much press. What happens after the lawsuit in the early '90s with the Ackley's and the house went back on the market, everyone knew of the lawsuit and whatnot and the house sold within a couple of months. Actually, it might've been four months. It sold very quickly after the publicity.

I'm a strong believer having been in marketing and advertising little bit before I got into real estate, that all publicity in a weird way can be good publicity. I think marketing around the Ackley house being haunted would've been a good thing. Now, if someone says there's a ghost in the house, you don't know for sure if there's really a ghost there. I probably take the tack of not marketing it that way.

Unless, it was maybe George Washington's ghost or the ghost of some famous figure, then I think there's a celebrity ghost I think would be a really good thing too to market around if someone can say with sincerity that something happened in their house of that nature. I think unless there's a really strong story behind the seller's discussion of a ghost, I don't think I would putting it up.

Legally, of course today, a realtor has no legal obligation to disclose of a ghost is in that house. However, a realtors code of ethics of New York state requires that we be truthful. If a buyer-client were to ask myself let's say, as a listing agent, is there a ghost in the house, if I knew from the previous owner there was a ghost in the house and they told me they didn't want me to discuss it, then I would have to say, "Can't answer that question." Again, I'm saying that I probably wouldn't mention there was a ghost, unless there was some great story behind it.

[00:17:03] Richard: It was time, she was a widow. She wanted to move to Florida. House has been on the market like I said earlier for a couple of years. Like any normal person, older, kids are older, out of the house, or almost out of the house, it was time to sell.

[00:17:36] Richard: She was public about it. She had an article. She wrote about her ghosts and she had an article that was written in Reader's Digest, which was still very popular in the 1990s. She went into great detail stories that happened through the years with her ghosts.

Then I believe the Reader's Digest article was picked up by a couple of other publications, as well as the local newspaper, The Journal News. I never saw those stories and I never saw the Reader's Digest story until this all came out in the court case.

[00:18:29] Richard: I was a listing agent for the house. One of my agents, she was their agent. She was the selling agent. I didn't interact with them frequently, but my impression was very positive. They see the real estate, you want to know if someone's qualified. They were living in New York City, the Cedar market for homes in our marketplace. I think he was in financial business and she had some business. They seem like a nice couple and they were qualified to purchase the house, that was lovely.

[00:19:30] Richard: Yes, absolutely. Mrs. Ackley, as I said earlier, had told us about her ghosts and we listened to the stories. I don't think I ever really commented much. Probably smiled and listened, and that was it. I believe the agents in my office including the selling agent had heard the story prior that Mrs. Ackley thinking that there was a ghost in her house. Again, it was not that Mrs. Ackley had a ghost in her house, it was she thinks she has a ghost in her house. That's always how we perceived it. We never had an office policy. There was no need to have one. Whether this has to be discussed or not. I think unofficially, it wasn't discussed because who knows if there was even a ghost there?

If there was one, maybe they wouldn't buy the house. That was never discussed, never ever discussed that we shouldn't discuss it because maybe they wouldn't buy the house. It was information that was irrelevant. It was not a material fact. There was no reason to discuss it. It was not the law and that was that.

[00:20:57] Richard: Yes, I sure do. Actually, my father had a conversation. My father was the real estate broker in our office. Mrs. Ackley had called the office and he spoke to her. She told him she had heard the good news that the contracts of sale was signed by the Stambovsky's. The contracts and the down payment check were with Mrs. Ackley's attorney.

She called our office and spoken to my father that she was not going to sign her end of the contracts until the Stambovsky's were told about her ghosts. My father to spoke to me and I spoke to our agent about it. Our agent very cautiously called Jeff Stambovsky.

It was during the day, perhaps he was at work. She had told him that the owner claims that she has a ghost in her house. I remember distinctly she said that he laughed and said, "We'll have to call the Ghostbusters."

I remember that distinctly. I believe 100% that Jeff Stambovsky was told about the ghosts and he laughed about it. Then we told Mrs. Ackley that we told him about it and then she signed the contract. That was important to her and I don't know why, but that was important to her that we, her representatives, tell the Stambovsky's about the ghosts, and we did that.

[00:22:52] Richard: A week or two had passed after the contract's were fully signed. My agent had gotten the call from Jeff Stambovsky. He said that they wanted to meet with the owner and talk a little bit more about the ghosts. I was not at that meeting, but my agent was. The Stambovsky's had come and they brought a woman with her, we can only described as a stereotype of what a gypsy woman might look like. With beads and a long dress and this thing on her head and that so she was described to me.

She was at the meeting with Mrs. Ackley, who I understand was her usual passion spoke about the ghosts in great detail. They sat down. They spoke about it. It was a polite meeting. My agent said everyone laughed, it was friendly.

Then the next day, we received the call from the seller's attorney that he had a call from the buyer's attorney that they wanted their money back. They were not going to proceed with the purchase of the house and it's because of the ghosts.

[00:24:16] Richard: Our reaction was, "Well, that's not fair. That's ridiculous. We told them about the ghosts." Then, of course, Mrs. Ackley's reaction was the same. They said their money back and she said, "I'm not giving them their money back. We disclosed to them about the ghosts and I wouldn't sign the contract until that was done." There was anger and not quite disbelief, but almost a disbelief that they wanted their money back then.

[00:25:17] Richard: No, I didn't. I felt that, I could understand the rationale behind their argument because they think they said that they had heard it from a contractor that, "Oh, you're buying the haunted house?" Something like that. That makes total sense with what they're saying. As a realtor of many years, some people believe in ghosts, some people don't.

It's come up before. People might ask if it's part of an estate. Did they die in the house? Is there a ghost in the house? It doesn't happen often, in fact, it happens very rarely. It comes up through the years. It is a similar line of thought. We've had listings next to cemetery and some people would never live next to a cemetery.

Other people are totally indifferent. They think rather than having a noisy neighbor, a cemetery is a more valuable place to live next to, believe it or not. Everyone has a different opinion. I don't think that a house supposedly being haunted devalues it. The unique thing here with the Ackley house was that it was a publicized haunted house.

One could argue were there really ghost in it? Was that a figment of the family's imagination? I don't think it was a figment of their imagination, but I'm just saying, you could be a cynic and argue that as well.

[00:27:30] Richard: It was a down payment. People put money down and if they default on the contract and then they lose their down payment. Stambovsky's by saying they wanted their money back and that they weren't going to close, they were defaulting on the contract. Not an attorney, but legally, the seller has the right to then keep the down payment. They're not closing. They agreed that they would close on the property, now they're saying they're not going to close on it. The Ackley's had every right to keep that money.

[00:28:17] Richard: We were involved, that was the lower court. The lower court, we were represented by an attorney. In fact, it was my brother, Jeff Ellis. The Ackley's were represented by their attorney. My brother's point of view in representing us was that we represented the property properly. We were dutiful with our obligations as a realtor. We disclosed everything legally that needed to be disclosed. We were not at fault with anything.

It was a little nerve-racking and it was also exciting because it was such an unusual case and there was tons of publicity that was started to be generated around this. It was kind of sitting at the edge of your seat waiting to see what was going to happen, what was going to come of it.

[00:29:41] Richard: Buyer beware and in old law, Latin it's known as caveat emptor. That means that anyone purchasing a house needs to do their own due diligence prior taking the deed over and then once they do take ownership and the deed is transferred, anything wrong that happens with that property, it's now there's. There's no strings attached with the previous owner, that they have any responsibilities whatsoever.

More so in the old days, and certainly in my earlier real estate days, caveat emptor was always something that, the buyer had to do their due diligence, they had to do their inspections, they had to do whatever they had to do to find out everything they can about a property before closing because after they closed, they own it, and then it's their problem if there are already issues with it.

[00:31:00] Richard: Well, my brother took a tack in defending us in stating that he went and quoted certain passages from the Reader's Digest article. One in particular was a description of the gentleman in the revolutionary war garb, and my brother, tongue in cheek said, "This could have been a description of George Washington, and who's to say that it wasn't him and the property could be worth more money," and the Stambovky's argued that it was devalued.

He had a lot of fun defending us, and we felt really good afterwards. We didn't think we did anything wrong anyway, so we weren't really concerned about being found guilty. It was an unusual situation, but we felt good after the first case.

[00:32:07] Richard: It went to the Appellate Division. It was troublesome that he had the right then to appeal it, he being Stambovsky. We were at the edge of our seats to see what would happen then. My brother was able to convince the court that we, the broker, were lawful with everything we did, and with respect to again, doing our job and disclosing, representing everything as we technically knew it. There was nothing on the books that ever said we had to disclose about a ghost or anything like that.

As you probably know, we were released from the suit, but Mrs. Ackley was held liable then and found at fault for not disclosing to the Stambovsky's about the ghosts. I believe, because she had published in several publications about the story of the ghosts, the court interpreted that and believed the Stambovsky's that they were never told about the ghosts beforehand, which of course, they were, as earlier stated.

[00:34:08] Richard: It was ridiculous. As I've told you, I have reason to believe that ghosts may exist, but to hold a realtor responsible to having disclose that a seller, let's say, it's something that-- I'm not saying, Mrs. Ackley at all. If you had a listing, and there's some very eccentric person who claims they have a ghost, that you then have to make a big deal to a potential buyer and disclose that when it's something that you can't even measure for a fact exists, it was ridiculous.

That's why after that went into law that a realtor had to disclose a ghost as they would a leaky roof or faulty furnace. That was in law for about six months until Governor Mario Cuomo left office and when Governor Pataki became governor of New York state, that was thrown out. At that point then, realtors did not have to disclose ghosts again. I thought it was absurd to make that law.

[00:35:37] Richard: Well, our family, it was like a milestone in our real estate career, so to speak. It was something to have been involved in a precedent setting case that generated so much publicity, I don't want to say it was fun, because it was very stressful, especially for the Ackley's, and the Stambovky's, I guess, at a certain level, so that's not the right word, but it was just the way things turned out. It was interesting, to say the least.

[00:36:22] Richard: Six months, correct.

[00:36:26] Richard: It did not, no. The only thing that periodically through the years, I've heard realtors say, "Disclosure issues come up. Do we have to disclose there's a ghost?" Again, the rule of thumb is a realtor has to always be honest, and if a seller says they have a ghost, you probably should ask them for permission beforehand whether or not you can state that. If they say it's okay, then you can tell a potential buyer if they ask the question. If they say, "Don't, I don't want that disclosed," then you can't answer that question. That's how you have to answer.

[00:37:24] Richard: I did not have hardly any contact with the next owner. Just generally, they said they didn't believe in ghosts, period. There was no further discussion beyond that, that I'm aware of.

[00:37:49] Richard: That's unusual.

[00:37:51] Richard: Yes.

[00:37:55] Richard: I just think-- For a house to change hands that many times, is unusual, period. Why is it unusual? I don't know, it could be any number of reasons. It's unusual for a home to change that many times. Now, can it be related to bad energy, or a ghost in the house, or someone not feeling comfortable in the house and wanting to sell it? Yes, that's possible

There's a saying that, I don't know if you listen to some of these different psychics and things-- I don't do that on a regular basis by no means, but they say nothing is a coincidence. If you take that line of thought, then why have so many people sold the house? Maybe there's something wrong. Then you could draw the dots from there.

[00:39:13] Richard: Did I--? Say it again, I'm sorry.

[00:39:24] Richard: Well, there was no reason for me to tell them about the Helen Ackley story because they certainly knew the history of the house and the ghosts because it was so well-publicized. When I met with them and discussed marketing the property, I recommended that we take a PR approach and try to make something out of it.

They were stone faced and had no interest whatsoever in any of that. They said they didn't believe in ghosts, and nothing ever happened in the house, and they didn't want me talking to that.

[00:40:09] Richard: Not really. If I did, it wouldn't be anything that I would feel an obligation to have to disclose, being that I'm a little ambivalent as ghosts exist. Again, I do think I believe in ghosts but it's such a non-material thing if there is a ghost and if they exist. If I had a property that supposedly had a ghost, I'd think hard if I wanted to make something out of it. Unless it was a celebrity ghost or something famous like that.

[00:41:10] Richard: Yes, it's true.

[00:41:16] Richard: Yes, it was. What I told you was about eight or nine years after the Ackley case, I bought a house in the community and it was a house also built in the 1890s. Coincidentally, before signing the contract of sale, the homeowner said to me, "Do you want to know everything about the house?" I said "Yes, absolutely." She said, "Well, there could be a ghost in it," and she laughed.

She said that some unusual things that happened in the house and she said that once there were two fireplaces in the living room that just midday out of the blue, the fireplaces were not on, they burst into flames and for no explanation. She also said that some glassware on the kitchen counter flew off the counter.

That there were some noises and things that appeared at the house. She said that these things don't happen often but they happen and she wanted to let me know about it. So I kind of smiled, it's a little unsure of what to think of all this and I said, "Okay, all right." Then her husband wasn't there when she had active discussion with me. Then I think about a week later, I was out in the garage and I asked her husband, I said, "So and so told me about these unusual things in the house, what do you think?"

By the way, she taught nursing and he was a doctor, so they're scientific people for whatever that's worth. He shrugged his shoulders and said, "No." I'd signed the contracts, coincidentally, I was the listing agent for this house as well so I was buying it for myself and I was the listing agent.

I had two months before closing and I had the keys to the house, the house was vacant and I could just go in there whenever I want. I will tell you with some embarrassment, maybe the first or second to go back to the house. I had a conversation with the walls and I basically said, "Listen, if there is any ghosts in here, we need to live here together and be peaceful."

I really haven't admitted that to anyone before except for a couple of people but I guess I'm wondering a lot more people know about that now. The contract was signed and I closed on the house.

[00:44:31] Richard: There was never anything bad that happened but the first six months when I moved in, I had a lot of artwork on the walls. It was unusual that the artwork was literally falling from the walls. One time, my favorite painting somehow miraculously fell over a sideboard and over a chair that was in front of the sideboard and landed perfectly on the floor.

For six months, I would guess six or eight pieces of art came off the walls and I'm used to putting hanging art and that was unusual. A friend was visiting from California and the supposed ghost story of it was a big story that I would talk about with my friends a lot.

They always enjoyed talking about it.

This one friend it was in the morning, she'd stayed overnight and she was coming down the steps from the second floor. A VHS tape, unaided, it was so weird flew off the shelf above the TV and just landed maybe three feet away from her feet. That was very weird.

I said, "What?" She again said, "Do you know where the gas station is?" A friend of mine was upstairs in the kitchen, he came down, he saw her, and then we turned to each other and then we looked and she wasn't there. I lived on a busy roadway and it had a circular driveway, it was completely dark behind the house. I don't think I opened the door from the lower level but we went out the front door, went back upstairs, didn't see any car. Then we went in the backyard, looked, didn't see anyone. I'm not saying anything, I'm just saying that was really weird.

It was just something that struck me as weird.

Then I think I did mention to you prior to this call that someone was trying to do a pilot TV show about ghosts in the area. They wanted to do the Ackley house and they had come to me because they knew I was involved with that and they wanted to know if there are any other houses that might have had a ghost in it. Mentioned another house that some client of mine purchased privately and had some usual things there.

I happened to mention to them, my house had some things that happened. Also, the front door which is open sometimes it wouldn't stay shut and the alarm would go off, electrical things that would happen there too. The psychic came to my house and said that there was a man and a woman and they were very much in love and they were there in the house. That they were very comfortable with me and liked me very much.

It was all very positive she said and she said that the woman who we saw downstairs that evening, she said that she was a jazz singer and trying to go to maybe a club. She asks if there was a club in the area and coincidentally, about a quarter of a mile, half-mile down on this particular road which is all residential mail, there was a jazz club and that she said that she was going there.

She named this person who it was and it was at the top of my head, I forget who it was now. She was able to Google her, she was a B-grade singer, lived in Harlem. That was weird, it was unusual.

[00:49:55] Richard: Do I still believe in ghosts? I don't know, maybe.

[laughter] Yes, that's been my experience in that house.

[00:50:41] Richard: I guess my thoughts are that houses may have a feeling that one gets when one goes into them and that may be from house that's run down might feel scary. A house that's bright and light and a lot of windows might feel very cheery. Sometimes, I think that one gets a feeling based on the structure and the way it's set up.

That's kind of the scientific side of me that says maybe stuff is purely from how you set it up. There's the practice of Feng Shui, the ancient Asian practice of having a house lined up with whatever, nature and water and fire and windows and things that might give better-- they call it better energy. The said practice of Feng Shui says that you get energy from design. I don't know.

I think sometimes if you believe in ghosts, maybe you have to feel it, you have to be open to feeling it, certainly to yourself if not outwardly to others. If maybe you feel it, you're going to see that. I think that from a professional point of view, realtors have to be honest and fair, but I don't see any reason why one would have to disclose if a ghost exists in a house based on what a seller may say. I would just say caveat emptor. [laughs] Beware and ask a lot of questions. Think if you're going to buy a house. There you go.

[00:52:43] Richard: All right. Very nice talking with you, R.J. Take care now. Bye.

[00:52:50] [END OF AUDIO]