Season 4 of the Pivot podcast provides lessons and stories from church leaders who are igniting imagination, creating collaborations, launching experiments, and dreaming of new possibilities for God’s church. It focuses on two questions: How might we use the uncertainty and disruption of this time to reimagine church, ministry, and leadership? And how might the Christian faith be a resource for making spiritual sense of current realities and leaning into the future that is emerging?

Dwight Zscheile: Sometimes the conversation in the church is: "We just need to do innovation and we need to, you know, really de-emphasize the old stuff." And the wisdom of this approach is, no, it's a both/ and it's not an either/ or. And that actually they can work really well together.

Terri Elton: Welcome to Pivot. My name is Terry Elton and I'm from Luther Seminary. And we are kicking off season four of Pivot. So welcome to our returning listeners and welcome to new listeners. I'm excited to have two new co-hosts. I have Dee Stokes and Dwight Zscheile here with me. And I'm just going to let them introduce themselves right out of the bat. So, Dr. Dee Stokes, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Dee Stokes: Thank you, Terry. It's great to be here on the Pivot podcast. I am, of course, the director of the Seeds Project for Faith Lead, but I also have some experience working with Fresh Expressions. And we're going to talk a little bit about that and what our Season four is all about. And so I'm excited about being a part of this conversation to move the church, to move the needle from just Sunday worship and things that we do normally in the church to a mixed ecology and ecosystem that includes those who will never step foot in the church.

Terri Elton: Well, when Alicia and I interviewed you in the last season, we both ended with way more to talk about than that episode allowed us to. So welcome to this season, Dr. Dee and the guests that you will bring to our conversation. I'm excited about that. And our VP of Innovation here at Luther Seminary. Dwight Zscheile, welcome to you.

Dwight Zscheile: Thanks. It's great to be on this. I'm really excited about this season and exploring really how we can imagine churches of all different sorts working together to reach people with the hope of Jesus i n today's culture. I get to work with this wonderful Faith+ Lead team, Luther Seminary's learning ecology alongside our degree programs and teach congregational mission and leadership at Luther Seminary as well. And I'm excited to kick off this season.

Terri Elton: Well, one of the things that I want to say, if you haven't been part of Pivot podcast, the Pivot podcast is providing lessons and stories from church leaders who are igniting imagination, creating collaborations, doing experiments, and really dreaming about new possibilities for God's church. And this summer, Dwight and I got to go to the UK a second trip actually to to learn from some of the innovations some of the leaders do ing this. So, Dwight, let's start out by just talking a little bit about that experience and how that actually helped us think about this season of of the Pivot podcast.

Dwight Zscheile: Yes. So you know, the UK in some respects and other Western European societies are ahead of where the US is at with respect to trends of secularization, people seeking the good without God. A very small percentage of the population in the UK is connected to any church and the Church of England, which is still the state church, it's really only about 1.5% of the English population is actually actively involved. And so about 20 years ago they started to think strategically about what could be done to connect with these neighbors when so many of them were not going to show up in the traditional church structure that exists there. And and so out of that came some wonderful experimentation around the idea of fresh expressions. And fresh expressions are new forms of Christian community or church that emerge within contemporary culture and engage primarily with those who don't go to church. And one of the brilliant things that they've done in the UK is to think about those coexisting and thriving alongside inherited forms of church. So traditional forms of church, neighborhood, church, and then these fresh expressions which often function in network spaces where people are already connected in the neighborhood in various ways, and there's a lively partnership. So what we want to focus on in this season is this concept of the mixed ecology, which I think is a really rich one for us to learn from and also to consider in a variety of contexts today.

Terri Elton: So around Faith Lead, I'm known as the "and" person. Any time we're in a conversation, it's like, That's true. And what about this? And I feel like one of the things that I took away from both of our trips over to the UK is the Church of England and various diocese in particular were really looking at the "and," like we have clergy, they're doing their thing here in a more traditional way and there were experimenting and trying a bunch of things on the side, training people, people that weren't paid, all kinds of stuff. And so I think for me, that's something I want to think about here in the US. Dr. Dee, you have worked with fresh expressions in this context and some of that. Could you talk a little bit about that experience?

Dee Stokes: So Fresh Expressions North America is again what Dwight said about going to the community. The big moniker is that we don't hold signs up at the church, but we actually cross the bridge to go into the community and the big term is to become incarnational. So it's also a movement of laypeople, persons who are not clergy led. And so to get laypeople interested in going and reaching their communities and what we've what we found was laypeople actually have ministries. You know, God doesn't just speak to the clergy.

Terri Elton: I feel like there's an amen. Dr. Dee. We could say.

Dee Stokes: God doesn't just speak to the clergy. God speaks to all people. And what we haven't done well in the church is to acknowledge that people sitting in the pews have ministries as well, and they have vision and they have insight, and we need to tap into that. And so Fresh Expressions North America has done a really good job, I think, of bridging that gap and and crossing the bridge into the community and being incarnational. Some people actually live in the communities in which they serve, literally relocate themselves in those communities to do great work. And so it is something that has changed the landscape of the church and will continue to do so. And so that's what they've brought to North America.

Terri Elton: One of the things I love about the work of Fresh xpressions both in the UK and here in the US, is this contextualization. And and so it's not just lay people that are being invited into leadership, but it's like, what does it mean in Florida or Ohio or Minnesota or and, and there's an invitation to really listen to one's context. Dwight, I'd love for you to give us some examples of like, what does that contextualizing look like and, and what were some of the ministries, maybe even that people were imagining that you've seen both in the US or in the UK?

Dwight Zscheile: So we'll be getting some great stories from our guests over the course of this season. But let me just before I go into the examples, let me just say a little bit more about that word incarnation that you use Dr. Dee so helpfully is we think about the Body of Christ becoming en fleshed in local times and places. That's when the church flourishes. And in the history of the church, when the church is really embedded in local life in a transformational way, where it's not simply accepting everything in local culture, but it's also critically transforming local culture.

Dee Stokes: That's a good place to say Amen

Dwight Zscheile: Amen. And the and the gospel is speaking clearly in language people can understand in the neighborhood. That's when the church thrives and when it becomes disconnected and not actually embedded either it loses its critical distinctiveness and and becomes just accommodating to culture or it is actually not deeply enfleshed enough to make sense to people. Then it dies. And so I think what we've inherited in at least in Western societies, is a lot of forms of church that were contextualized or incarnational for a different era, a different period of time, a different cultural moment. And we now find ourselves in a moment where those forms are really powerfully speaking to some people, but not to a lot of others, other people who are, you know, looking for trustworthy communities in which to ask life's big questions and see the institutional church as an inhospitable place to do that. So Fresh xpressions is one way to think about how can the church learn how to be present, incarnational with neighbors in today's culture? And there's all kinds of wonderful examples. You know, in the UK, you know, an example is Messy Church, which is pretty much what you'd imagine church for families with young children. There are various forms of dinner church or churches that are organized around people's hobbies or interests like runner church or boxing church. A lot of people find God in nature. So there's Forest Church or sometimes called Mossy Church, yoga church, you know, all kinds of things where life is already living out and people are actually connected together. The church embeds there.

Dee Stokes: I think you said something really important, that people are curious and have questions and they feel like they cannot go to the church and ask those important, sometimes very difficult to answer questions. And so how do you do that? How do you reach the people so that they feel comfortable asking those questions? And then how do we feel comfortable answering those questions? And so I think context is really, really, really important. And so when you see someone who loves Jesus, who comes from your neighborhood or from your your context and you feel more comfortable speaking with them. You feel more comfortable asking them the hard questions instead of going to church and talking to the pastor or the priest or whomever that you may not know who may not live in your neighborhood. And so I think that's really important that people want to know what is the meaning of life, what is my purpose? And so to have those conversations with folks who you live among or who are like you is extremely important.

Terri Elton: The other thing you said that resonated with me, Dwight, is "in language that people can understand". I think one of the the disconnects around church today and everyday lives is there's a different vocabulary and it makes a ton of assumptions around, you know, what's ecclesiology, what's salvation, what are, what's the gospel? Right, in those kinds of ways. And I think the structure I'm ELCA Lutheran when we have leaders that are primarily with the master's level education that are learning a vocabulary. And that's the primary way that they talk about the gospel or even pray. That can be a real disconnect. It's and it's not that that doesn't have a place. That's what I love about the mixed ecology, but that's not the accessible thing. Like you said, to ask my questions. I don't even know what you just said, right. Sometimes. But I can ask my neighbor or I can ask the soccer mom or whatever that that I'm close to. Or I heard a pastor once say, "If God wanted to give the gospel the lawyers, he'd be a lawyer. If God wanted to do it to a teacher, he'd be a teacher." Right? There's the sense of the ability for us to witness to the gospel in our own language with the people that we're closest to and in relationship with. That is a starting point. It's not the only point. Right? The thing about a mixed ecology is that expression of church sits alongside. Right. Some of that. How would you if I'm a clergy out there, I'm like, okay, I don't know what this means. Tell me what this might mean. And I look to you, Dwight, thinking specifically of like, how has the UK even put structures around what it means to be church with this both of these expressions living together?

Dwight Zscheile: Yes. And I think "both" is a really a key word on this. So sometimes the conversation in the church is "we just need to do innovation and we need to, you know, really de-emphasize the old stuff." And and the wisdom of this approach is, no, it's a both /and it's not an either/ or. And that actually they can work really well together. So in the UK, you know, as we'll hear in subsequent episodes, they've organized this with fresh expressions typically being lay led and being connected to inherited church. And you know, the phrase inherited church is one that they use very deliberately. You think about an inheritance. Inheritance has value, right? There's treasures there to carry on. And sometimes inheritances are also complicated that can have a complicated legacy as well. And so so we want to to to affirm the value of the tradition and that inheritance and all of that. But then say alongside that, how do we open up those treasures to new people? And so so if you look at the kind of map of how this works, it's all in one system where the Fresh Expressions coexist under the oversight of the larger structure. So whether it be a local pastor or priest who has, you know, fresh expressions that are lay led in the neighborhood, maybe that might meet a neighborhood spaces, maybe they might meet in the church building sometimes, you know, and under the oversight in the case of the Church of England, ultimately of the bishop and the diocese and the structure. So it's important to hear that these aren't sort of rogue, you know, totally independent, chaotic, you know, forms of Christian community that have no accountability and no embeddedness in the larger structure. They very much do. But they're also given a lot of freedom and flexibility for church to look different than in the inherited model. So rather than a one size fits all standardized model, which we've inherited in the US, particularly from the 20th century bureaucratic denomination where standardization was the name of the game, we're finding that that is no longer working and breaking down. So we need to create space within those structures for these other forms alongside.

Terri Elton: I was particularly interested in as a theologian who teaches in theological education, that in those Fresh Expressions, it's not that they're not training them and equipping them, but they're doing it in a different model. It's like an accompaniment model of theological education or leadership development, as opposed to "do all of this first, and then you lead" kind of in the model that we've had. Dee, hat do you what do you see and do you want to share?

Dee Stokes: Yeah, I have a story about a pastor who started a dinner church. I think he may lived in Colorado or somewhere and his first dinner church, he stood up to preach.

Terri Elton: How'd that go, Dee?

Dee Stokes: And he did what he would normally do on a Sunday morning, and somebody stood up and threw a f bomb out and said, Listen to the pastor, you know? And it just became so disruptive that he learned in that time that you cannot stand up and do in that context what you would normally do on a Sunday morning. And so he changed his whole approach to dealing with the people instead of this iconic figure standing up in front of people telling them what to do, like we do in church, you had to infiltrate, right, the people and become one of the people and teach them about Jesus in a different way. And it worked for him and it was refreshing for him. The other thing he he had he struggled with is they actually canceled Sunday Church and did the dinner church on a different night of the week, and that was their church. And so he felt funny getting up on Sunday mornings and not going to church. So it was it was literally a mindset shift. Now, I'm not telling, don't call us, don't email us. Okay. And say that that crazy woman told us not to have Sunday church. That's not what I'm saying. We're talking about context. What is your context? How can you reach the people, not what is my favorite way of preaching or what is my favorite way of doing, but what what can work with the people? And he really changed his whole mindset and the whole concept and then started to teach people about Jesus in a different way. Started to tell stories about Jesus that related to the people. I remember one other instance that I was pastoring a church and I said, We're going to talk about Jesus for five months. The words of Jesus for five months. Post-resurrection, healing stories, intimate conversations. We're going to do it for five months and you guys are going to tell me a Jesus story by the end of that time, right? I'm going to call on you. I'm gonna call you out on Sunday, so you better be ready or I'm going to call you out. And after about 3 or 4 weeks, I got discouraged because people could not tell me Jesus stories. And then someone, our veteran who was disabled, he he said, Wait a minute. One Sunday I was about to preach. I said, "I'm done with this." Right. Wait a minute, Dr. D. So come on. Come on, General. Stand up, Colonel. Whatever. His title was in the military and he was disabled. He stood up with his cane and told the most beautiful Jesus story. And it just everybody was like, "Oh, this is so wonderful." So relating people's lives to Jesus is really important in the context that you're in.

Terri Elton: So one of the things I. Imagine hearing as around this model from clergy. I know, but that hesitation to trust the laity to trust the non theologically trained to lead church and at least in my denomination that's a little scary and and ome pastors will do I think what you said, they'll be able to reimagine and shift their mind and begin to talk differently and relate differently with people. And I want to just empower those clergy to go. And they probably have an entrepreneurial spirit in them and they might need to trust that a little bit more. Right. And lean into that. But I think there's a the majority of what I see in the church is what if we, as the the people leading the established, inherited church, were more willing to take that colonel and say, Colonel, who might you gather in your circles now and begin to create a Fresh Expression, if you will, to begin not a small group ministry that has a Bible study and all that, but just to begin to gather people in the name of Jesus to to be community, to say, how might we serve our neighbor, to ask a really more basic set of questions. And I know, Dwight, you've seen some movements of that in Episcopal Church. You've talked with some leaders. I think that's the hardest mindset of this for the established church leaders, lay or clergy to make the shift that the role of clergy changes.

Dwight Zscheile: Yeah. And you know, there's a whole model that we've inherited, again, that is basically clergy led, lay supported, and we talk about this sometimes as a performative model of ministry where the clergy are expected to perform Christian faith for people like they're the ones reading the Bible. They're the ones doing the prayers. They're the ones who are supposed to evangelize, get new people to come to church. You know, they do the ministry, they're the ministers. And then the job of laypeople is basically to to give and volunteer to support the clergy and the staff doing that work. But, you know, that model is breaking down and all kinds of ways in a culture that is much more participatory now. So, you know, one of the things I hear you saying, Dee, in the story you shared is, you know, Fresh Expressions, a lot of this is about highly participatory ways of people engaging. And if it's just a pastor standing up and telling everyone what to do or what to say or what to think, that's not enough. People want to engage. They want to make sense out of their own experience engaging in scripture. And they want to tell stories. They want to wrestle with things in community in a much more participatory way. So the shift from a clergy led lay support supported model, performative model to a lay led clergy supported model that is more formative, where again, the role of clergy is to actually equip people to to be mature disciples of Jesus in daily life so that everyone owns their own spiritual growth, right, in community together in, in, you know, engagement with the practices of the faith and the tradition. But in the in the fresh expressions world and in the mixed ecology, that means a lot of lay empowerment because it's the it's the ordinary disciples that we talk about here in faith lead as "everyday disciples" who are already embedded in those communities where people aren't going to church. So they have more credibility than clergy do, and they have relationships. They know those people. They know that culture. And so when we equip them to invest, you know, presence and relationship there, listen to people. This all begins with listening, love people. And then to begin to explore spiritual questions with them that allows for a much more inclusive, actually an holistic approach to being church in our time and place.

Dee Stokes: So people want to belong before they believe. And so in my world, we've always tried to get people to believe first. Then you can belong to the church, right? And assimilate them into what we do, how we act, how we dress, how we talk. But people really want to belong. And I think it's important. That's an important concept, is they want to be a part of it. So these lay folks have interests, and it's really as simple as this. Instead of Terri talked about the the small group approach. So it's really as simple as I like to go bowling. Let me find three or 4 or 5 people who want to go bowling with me. And and and we include Jesus, right? Jesus is bowling with us. It really is that simple to me, even though sometimes we make it difficult, but everyone has a hobby or everyone has something they like to do. And again, there are dog park churches. Well, it's just because you got a dog and you go to the dog park, you know, it's really as simple as that, right? And so you interact with the other people who are at the dog park. Maybe you invite a few other of your friends. Right. And so if we could make it literally that simple, I think we could do this in greater volumes.

Terri Elton: I'm excited. I don't know about you guys, but we have imagined a real fun lineup. We're going to learn about the UK. We're going to get a big picture and some stories we're going to learn about what's happening here in North America. And we're going to get some stories. We're going to talk about practices. This is we're going to talk about the systems that need to be around to support that. What would either of you say about some of our guests coming for this season that you'd want listeners to get excited about?

Dee Stokes: They're experts, they're practitioners. They don't do this just in theory, but in praxis. And I think that's important. We're going to we're going to teach you or help you to understand how to do these things, not just a theological perspective, not just theory again, but praxis.

Dwight Zscheile: One of the wonderful things about Fresh Expressions in the mixed ecology is that it looks different in different places. And so we're going to hear from some global perspectives and stories that may not make sense in your particular context, but you're going to get some new imagination perhaps, and inspiration for what might work where you are. And and we're going to hear from people who have been at this work for a long time and those those who are, you know, newer to it. But doing really great work. And we'll really lean into what are harvesting really some of the lessons about how to do this work and how does it all fit together. So no matter whether you are an everyday disciple who has a sense of God might be nudging you to help lead some new form of church in your community, Or maybe you're a local pastor or priest who's who's wondering how to tend this work in your context, or maybe you're an adjudicatory or denominational leader or bishop or something like that. No matter where you are, we hope to provide you with some imagination and resources to take a next step.

Terri Elton: Well, I'm excited because our next episode, we're going to get on that plane. Well, not really, but we're going to go over to the UK and learn about kind of where did Fresh Expressions start and get a little bit more perspective around that. So we're going to start kind of back at the origin of this concept, and I hope you will tune in and hear more about where this all began.

Faith+Lead: This episode of the Pivot podcast was brought to you by Faith Lead. If you enjoyed today's show, head over to Faith. Org to gain access to a free resources. See you next time.